Unite the Right 2: White Supremacist Boogaloo
August 12, 2018 12:32 PM   Subscribe

 
An embarrassing venue, I'd have thought. Didn't Lincoln already beat these guys once?
posted by jaduncan at 12:39 PM on August 12, 2018 [11 favorites]


I keep waiting for 45 to tweet something stupid like "Great patriotic Americans exercising their right to free speech."
posted by Thorzdad at 12:43 PM on August 12, 2018 [2 favorites]


Unicorn Riot has live coverage as well.
posted by eviemath at 12:45 PM on August 12, 2018


I was working on a post about the anniversary in Charlottesville, so I hope it’s ok that I post those links here.

Zyahna Bryant, who started the petition to remove racist statues from our public parks, reflects on the past year.

The local paper, Cville Weekly, covers the lockdown.

The Cavalier Daily, the UVA student paper, covers the student led Aug 11th protest.

Activist & UVA professor Jalane Schmidt tweets live coverage of Aug 12 activism in Cville.

Virginia Humanities’ executive director reflects and pulls together some resources. VA Humanities is also local to Cville.
posted by CMcG at 12:48 PM on August 12, 2018 [17 favorites]


So I'm at the gym, with a CNN split-screen on the TV nearest me. On the left, a huge photo of Heather Heyer (I think) in front of a thick crowd. On the right, about 15 people milling around a big park, half of them taking photos of the other half. I wish for an aerial view to give me a sense of concrete proportion, and fortunately, another TV seems to have just that: a huge crowd in a green space being held a good distance of open space away from a much smaller group. Alas, that was not the news, but a golf tournament.
posted by jackbishop at 12:49 PM on August 12, 2018 [13 favorites]


I think this is going to turn out to be a non-event. Logistically, D.C. is a tough place for the neo-Nazis. They can't get to and from the demonstration spot easily. They can't disperse easily if they need to. I'm sure there are local people who support them, but not who live anywhere near the demonstration site. I think this is going to be 30 terrible neo-Nazis and 20,000 counter-demonstrators, and probably minimal violence between them. At least I hope so. I don't want any more Heather Heyers.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 12:54 PM on August 12, 2018 [4 favorites]


@willsommer [photo]: Two counter protests now combining, and the crowd is huge

@elainejgodfrey: There are more Lime scooters out here than white nationalists #UniteTheRight2

Absent further developments, it seems like a reasonable framing for today is "huge anti-racism march in DC." I'd begrudgingly accept as an addition, in small print, "tiny group of assholes stand in nearby park."
posted by zachlipton at 12:55 PM on August 12, 2018 [61 favorites]


The Antifa contingent is marching there now; it's a large and energetic group and their "It Takes A Bullet To Bash A Fash" banner adds a zesty touch.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:55 PM on August 12, 2018 [28 favorites]


I bet police didn’t force them to leave at 2:15, they just said “we’re not protecting you if you wait” and the Nazis scurried like the cowards they are.
posted by corb at 1:00 PM on August 12, 2018 [11 favorites]


Is the counter protest just people pointing and snickering? Because that's what the nazis deserve. That and being punched.
posted by chavenet at 1:06 PM on August 12, 2018 [8 favorites]


I'd begrudgingly accept as an addition, in small print, "tiny group of assholes stand in nearby park."

I often give NPR shit for their framing, but their headline is "Small Group Of White Supremacists Rally In D.C. Amid Mass Counterprotests", which seems accurate.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:22 PM on August 12, 2018 [44 favorites]


At the time of writing there are literally tens of people attending the "Unite the Right" rally.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:23 PM on August 12, 2018 [8 favorites]


Whereas the "Untie the Right" rally is considerably larger? What larks!
posted by Grangousier at 1:32 PM on August 12, 2018 [5 favorites]


At the time of writing there are literally tens of people attending the "Unite the Right" rally.

It's often sobering (and very informative) when mediated reality meets empirical reality. Bots can't show up in person.
posted by LooseFilter at 1:35 PM on August 12, 2018 [71 favorites]


I'm watching this live stream on YouTube and there's this protester in the background talking about wanting to take a nap and getting a root beer float: “All I want is a root beer float.”

And it's kind of heart-warming to hear something so simple in the middle of such awfulness. Just normal humanity in the middle of politics/Nazis/etc.
posted by Fizz at 1:37 PM on August 12, 2018 [6 favorites]


Logistically, D.C. is a tough place for the neo-Nazis. They can't get to and from the demonstration spot easily.

yeah no totally like can you imagine if they had to take the metro with all their nazi gear they wouldn't even make it one stop oh wait the city is giving them their own private fucking train stations and police escorts.

can you even imagine BLM or antifa getting their own train
posted by windbox at 1:38 PM on August 12, 2018 [84 favorites]


"It Takes A Bullet To Bash A Fash"

Am I supposed to support this sentiment? Because I don't think I do.
posted by rhizome at 1:38 PM on August 12, 2018 [23 favorites]


Well, this is disappointing. Here's the Charlottesville DSA solidarity statement and call for action. It acknowledges
“those who are most affected by fascism and white supremacy -- people of color, the LGBTQ community, native peoples, disabled people, and people in working or lower income classes.”
There's one group that has pointedly been left out. It's the one the neo-Nazis were actually chanting about; the one that featured on their advertising material.

The DSA statement is a call for action against “white supremacy”. The issue of Jews and whiteness is a vexed one, but opposition to antisemitism is certainly not included in an opposition to white supremacy. I don't know who was responsible for this, but it's appalling.

Via.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:44 PM on August 12, 2018 [61 favorites]


To recap from prior threads:

1) WMATA initially announced it was going to allow Nazi-only cars on publicly-owned Metro
2) DC residents call bullshit, ATU Local says WMATA backs down
3) Nazis arrive, Fairfax County and WMATA promptly give them an entire Nazi-only publicly-owned station as well as Nazi-only cars and Nazi-only police protection

This is some bullshit, and it should result in some serious legal blowback. I really hope to god it ends poorly for every fucking Nazi sympathizer who was involved in allowing this to happen.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:45 PM on August 12, 2018 [131 favorites]


Reports that the Alt Right folks were unready for the need of a Metro card says volumes, imagining the clowns staring at the card dispensing machines asking each other if they have the right card or cash to work the "left wing" train thingie.
posted by Freedomboy at 1:52 PM on August 12, 2018 [18 favorites]


There's one group that has pointedly been left out. It's the one the neo-Nazis were actually chanting about; the one that featured on their advertising material.

After people pointed this out, they eventually released a new statement without actually apologizing, and the new statement is a bit odd: it adds the sentence "We must recognize that our Jewish comrades are confronting violent antisemitism perpetuated by Nazis," but doesn't include Jews in the list of "This fight has been led by those who are most affected by fascism and white supremacy."
posted by zachlipton at 1:53 PM on August 12, 2018 [9 favorites]


Note that the Charlottesville DSA news is three days old, and they've already since apologized and issued a strong statement of support.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:53 PM on August 12, 2018 [6 favorites]


Having sat beside my Jewish husband while we watched tiki torch Nazis scream "Jew will not replace us", I am unimpressed by the hasty attempt by the Charlottesville DSA to try to make up for their complete failure of a statement. It has been a horrible two years for American Jews, and I'm heartbroken that so many on the left still just don't get how utterly terrifying it is to see swastikas in the streets for people who barely have extended families because the Nazis killed them all. That's not hyperbole. That's generational inherited trauma.
posted by hydropsyche at 1:59 PM on August 12, 2018 [142 favorites]


This happened last year, too, where Jews were left out of a solidarity statement, though I'm not on a device where I can easily cite. It's just... C'mon people, they're Nazis. It's been sobering to realize how much the left hates us, too. The other day, I day I saw a comment from a leftist on the White House Facebook feed that used the phrase "Jew sucking President Bone Spurs." I find myself spending more time in exclusively Jewish spaces online because I just feel so alone and alienated and scared.
posted by Ruki at 2:08 PM on August 12, 2018 [46 favorites]


Hey, people who know tattoos, Which military unit is this? Marines or something, right?
posted by Artw at 2:12 PM on August 12, 2018 [9 favorites]


Nazis arrive, Fairfax County and WMATA promptly give them an entire Nazi-only publicly-owned station as well as Nazi-only cars and Nazi-only police protection

At each and every Nazi event the cops go out of their way to help them out and each and every time liberals act surprised. Like, aren't humans supposed to be pretty good at pattern recognition? Why do you expect the thing that happened the last hundred times not to happen this time? I'm honestly boggled by this. They're on the same side.
posted by enn at 2:12 PM on August 12, 2018 [46 favorites]


That tattoo just looks like a stylized "SS", like, those Nazi guys. Why do you think it is US Military?
posted by Windopaene at 2:16 PM on August 12, 2018 [3 favorites]


Because that’s always the excuse, it’s totally a Nazi tattoo.
posted by Artw at 2:20 PM on August 12, 2018 [12 favorites]




That tattoo just looks like a stylized "SS", like, those Nazi guys. Why do you think it is US Military?

WhyNotBoth.gif
posted by JohnFromGR at 2:23 PM on August 12, 2018 [4 favorites]


WMATA is more than the City. It's Virginia, Maryland, DC, and the Feds. So no the city did not allow the Nazis have their own train.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 2:27 PM on August 12, 2018 [2 favorites]


For me the ambiguity is really reduced when people have a probably-Nazi tattoo whilst shouting "Jews will not replace us."

It's the little hints that give it away.
posted by jaduncan at 2:28 PM on August 12, 2018 [22 favorites]


@mhbaskin: The white supremacists have reportedly disbanded, 15 minutes before they were scheduled to begin demonstrating. Hordes of people have left the square. The crowd broke out into a rendition of “This Little Light of Mine.”

Sounds like they started early and went home early. And it's raining.

I'm more concerned about what happens after the organized rally is over, really.
posted by zachlipton at 2:30 PM on August 12, 2018 [11 favorites]


I find myself spending more time in exclusively Jewish spaces online because I just feel so alone and alienated and scared.

This is probably superfluous, but I'm glad you're here.
posted by jaduncan at 2:31 PM on August 12, 2018 [93 favorites]


It's the little hints that give it away.

Like standing next to the President of the United States of America.
posted by Artw at 2:31 PM on August 12, 2018 [28 favorites]


Like the Miller white supremacist gang sign. Part of the kick for those guys is getting to be open about it.
posted by jaduncan at 2:33 PM on August 12, 2018 [8 favorites]


I'm always a little taken aback when people pretend to not understand that a violently racist and militarized police force are literally fascists.

Right wing propaganda works so incredibly well when a watered down version of it has been allowed to seep into every aspect of the popular culture. People present at Kent State when the police slaughtered protestors understand this, and I fear it will take another Kent State for a younger generation to really understand how dangerous this point in time is.
posted by cj_ at 2:35 PM on August 12, 2018 [44 favorites]




From Kliph Nesteroff's blog, here's an example of how it was 50 years ago, when the Media were not the Enemy of Anybody.
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:45 PM on August 12, 2018 [1 favorite]


Fuck man, I really hate nazi's, and if you feel there's a difference, I hate fascists, white supremacists, and orange colored bully assholes too. And while I am not unopposed to violence against any of those, I will, in deference to the mods, not suggest they be torched, hung, beaten, or otherwise injured, today.
posted by evilDoug at 3:11 PM on August 12, 2018 [5 favorites]


here's an example of how it was 50 years ago, when the Media were not the Enemy of Anybody.

If you have the stomach for it, this 1966 interview(pdf) of the founder of the American Nazi Party Lincoln Rockwell by Playboy Magazine correspondent Alex Haley is a good read (yes, that Alex Haley). Haley runs circles around Rockwell, dismantles the scientific racism used to bolster claims of white superiority, and gives Rockwell enough space to expose himself as an armed lunatic singing cutesy racist songs. Where Haley is unfamiliar with and can't rebut a Nazi claim, Playboy includes a editor's note rebutting the nonsense; where Rockwell promises to follow up with proof of his thin assertions, Playboy includes an editor's note to say that proof never arrived. Attention NPR, this is how it's done.

I found it a worthwhile read because so little in the construction and justification of the white power recruitment pitch has changed from Rockwell's time to the alt right of today. The threads that connect Rockwell, the ANP, and these Unite the Right bozos have been traced in articles last year by both the Washington Post and the Guardian. The WaPo even tracks down Rockwell's killer, his Nazi lieutenant John Patsalos, who changed his last name to Patler to sound less Greek and more Hitler. He doesn't agree to an interview, but he is described as "a staunch online defender of Donald Trump." Of course he is.

The similarities between the ANP and the alt right range from the extensive speaking tours of US colleges, to the desire to co-opt the news media to create a recruitment platform, to Rockwell's scorn of the "pansified white peace creeps" who are now re-labeled as SJW snowflakes. The messaging has become more subtle when they have to appeal to the normies, their scientific racism has been updated and, of course, they've upped their game from mail-order pamphlets and hate records to twitter and hatreon. But really, it's something to hear today's alt right platform and strategy straight from the mouth of the founder of the American Nazi Party.
posted by peeedro at 3:19 PM on August 12, 2018 [76 favorites]


WMATA is more than the City. It's Virginia, Maryland, DC, and the Feds. So no the city did not allow the Nazis have their own train.

WMATA's complicated governorship structure and their actions today in direct contradiction of their earlier statements make it critical to find out exactly who authorized the private Nazi train. Like which individual employee, and whether they were pressured by the Trump regime. FOIAs need to be filed, tomorrow.

Someone authorized Nazis to commandeer a publicly funded train, and close a public station to all other riders, after promising they wouldn't. Who? Were they pressured? Were they paid?
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:29 PM on August 12, 2018 [75 favorites]


From a Marshall at the rally : huge success, BLM, DC DSA, and ISO put together a real mass working class rally, 2k in all I think, with excellent speakers.
posted by The Whelk at 3:47 PM on August 12, 2018 [8 favorites]


WMATA is denying they gave the Nazis a train, despite pictures of them doing exactly that:
FOX 5 reached out to Metro, which released the following statement: “The Vienna Metro remained open to the public and all trains are available to the public. Any decisions regarding crowd control and safety is a law enforcement matter and should be directed to the joint operations command and MPD the lead agency on the event.”

Metro also said the train Unite the Right attendees rode on stopped at every station to allow other customers to board and exit the train.
So they're going with "a private car isn't the same thing, gotcha libs!"
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:50 PM on August 12, 2018 [7 favorites]


No Free Rides For Nazis.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 3:51 PM on August 12, 2018 [2 favorites]


There's conflicting reports, see:

https://twitter.com/martinepowers/status/1028755046928982017

' I said “no, I’d like to get on this one” and he stepped aside and let me on.'
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 3:56 PM on August 12, 2018 [4 favorites]


The messaging has become more subtle when they have to appeal to the normies, their scientific racism has been updated and, of course, they've upped their game from mail-order pamphlets and hate records to twitter and hatreon.

I always think of Cam's speech in American History X. [YouTube]
“Wait'll you see what we've done with the internet. We've got every gang from Seattle to San Diego...working together now. Not competing anymore. They're consolidated. Only thing we lack is a little overall leadership.”
posted by Fizz at 4:00 PM on August 12, 2018 [7 favorites]


Having sat beside my Jewish husband while we watched tiki torch Nazis scream "Jew will not replace us", I am unimpressed by the hasty attempt by the Charlottesville DSA to try to make up for their complete failure of a statement. It has been a horrible two years for American Jews, and I'm heartbroken that so many on the left still just don't get how utterly terrifying it is to see swastikas in the streets for people who barely have extended families because the Nazis killed them all. That's not hyperbole. That's generational inherited trauma.

This is one of the most concerning things I am seeing that feels threatening at a personal level. I'm not Jewish, but my partner is, and this year it feels like we've been watching things come to life out of history books. I've always been a gun owner, but this year that changed from "a few antique target and hunting rifles" to "serious armament" because fuck these assholes.

I'm really glad to see that this supposed massive demonstration of their strength turned into an embarrassing debacle of their total cowardice. I hope that continues, and that a few years from now this is seen as a slightly embarrassing historical moment.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:01 PM on August 12, 2018 [13 favorites]


Note that the Charlottesville DSA news is three days old, and they've already since apologized and issued a strong statement of support.

Their original statement was dated August 5th and the replacement is dated August 11th, so it took them nearly a week to address it. Even then, IMO the DSA's updated statement compounds the earlier slight. It's all very well to “recognize that our Jewish comrades are confronting violent antisemitism perpetuated by Nazis”, but where is the actual solidarity? Here's that statement's actual call for action:
Celebrate and center local resistance led by marginalized communities
Decenter whiteness, and center and protect marginalized peoples
No platform for white supremacy
No “both sides” narrative
The cops and the klan go hand in hand
Civility is tyranny
We ask that you join us in confronting all forms of white supremacy in your community, however explicit or subtle. Whether it is gentrification, policing, prisons, ICE activity, schooling, environmental injustice, inaccessibility, or capitalism, we must confront the ways racism and fascism intersect and structure our daily lives.
Once again, no mention of Jews or antisemitism despite the fact that this is in reaction to a pro-Nazi rally, an ideology centred on Jewish genocide. You'd think that the marchers last year were shouting about tax breaks for landlords.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:01 PM on August 12, 2018 [21 favorites]


Even if they allowed some persistent other passengers on the car with the Nazis after fighting through lines of police, that doesn't comport with WMATA's statements of "no special treatment". No special treatment means waiting on the platform with everyone else. Buying a ticket with everyone else. Not holding a preplanned train and cordoning off two cars for diret boarding and detering other riders from boarding.

And the police protection is it's own problem.

I’ll have my HD footage of everything that went down online later, but in the meantime: something that stood out to me was the enormous police protection for #UTR2 at every point.

See the moment they first faced counterprotesters in DC


This is more than the appearance of taking sides, it's the police siding with the Nazis. It's been said before, but who can imagine this level of police coordination to allow a BLM protest to happen unmolested like this? It'd be unimaginable.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:04 PM on August 12, 2018 [65 favorites]


I haven't known where to put this comment that's been brewing in my head for a while now, but I think is the place. I've seen people in general blowing off the Walk Away thing as Russian propaganda, but I really think we need to take it seriously and here's why. I read the FB group every so often, and one day, I happened to see the "walk away story" of one of the young female leaders of the white supremacist movement. In her picture, she was making that stupid ok sign. There were a lot of comments replying with the ok emoji. But there were also comments asking what the hand sign meant, followed by genuine statements of "We don't want hate here." (Presumably because they saw some article that the ok gesture is a hate sign.) And those comments were met with "It's just an ok sign" or "It stands for the III% which (insert explanation which conveniently leaves out any mention of white supremacy)" WA is propaganda, sure, but it's neo-Nazi propaganda, I think. There's a shit ton of white supremacists in there, along with a bunch of normal people who are at risk of becoming radicalized. Seriously, the comments on her post were a mix of dog-whistles and honestly clueless people who didn't know that she's a fucking Nazi. I really don't think it should be taken lightly, but I also don't know WTF to DO about it.
posted by Ruki at 4:22 PM on August 12, 2018 [7 favorites]


That video kind of reminded me of old film from the middle of last century of police escorting little black kids into white schools while crowds of segregationist racists screamed at them. I'm still processing how exactly that makes me feel.
posted by nevercalm at 4:22 PM on August 12, 2018 [5 favorites]


I drove in 66 East this afternoon around 5:30 PM.

For those who don't know, the Vienna metro station is in the middle of a large interstate. 6 lanes of traffic in each direction (4 travel + 2 exit lanes) flow past a large concrete structure. There is a glass pedestrian walkway from each side to the metro station in the center.

About 1/2 mile before the station we saw police cars parked on the inner shoulder with their lights on. On the platform to the parking area there were at least 30 uniformed officers in yellow vests and dark clothes. Another 20-or so in the glass walkway to the station. I did see a few non vest wearing people on the walkway walking into the station. The police cars on the shoulder continued every 1/4 mile or so to the beltway where I got off 66. I've lived here for 20 years and never seen anything like it. I can't imagine any other group getting this kind of protection.
posted by BigVACub at 4:23 PM on August 12, 2018 [24 favorites]


My guess is the Metro shenanigans were orchestrated by the cops, not WMATA.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 4:32 PM on August 12, 2018 [5 favorites]


FOIA all the people involved in these decisions. Why do Nazis get escorts while BLM gets tear gas?
posted by benzenedream at 4:33 PM on August 12, 2018 [51 favorites]


Also: if the Dems retake Congress we need to keep Sessions and fucking Miller testifying in front of a committee for 6-8 hours a day. Keep those racist shitlords too busy to do bureaucratic evil.
posted by benzenedream at 4:36 PM on August 12, 2018 [18 favorites]


I can't imagine any other group getting this kind of protection.

And this is a conscious choice. There was a ready way out of this, to deny them a permit entirely. This same group fucking murdered a woman 1 year ago today. There's a documented history of violent attacks by Kessler and Unite the Right that killed an innocent person. The legal justification to disallow any future protest could not be stronger. Allowing it to happen is the state endorsing their ideas above the lives of anyone in dissent, and using the police to make sure their message is heard despite any credible threat of violence.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:39 PM on August 12, 2018 [60 favorites]


nevercalm: That's how I felt last year watching Jason Kessler show up on Charlottesville's pedestrian downtown mall, in front of City Hall, to make a statement the day after his minion killed Heather Heyer. One of the townspeople spit at him. Instantly police swept in to arrest the guy who spit and to hustle Kessler to safety. Meanwhile, a young black man (my former supervisor's kid's preschool teacher, as it happens) was beaten with metal poles in a parking garage next door to the police station, no police available I guess because they were too busy protecting Nazis from liberal spittle.
posted by basalganglia at 4:40 PM on August 12, 2018 [75 favorites]


So there's an openly racist President at the top, a group of fascist aides behind him, the political machinery of a major political party, which represents the moneyed class, in firm coalition with them, and the police actively enforces their official ideology, by arms, against the opposition and minorities.

If this were a poster-boy former colonized country, it would haven been labelled a "police state".

But I guess the fascist trains run on time, don't they?
posted by runcifex at 5:56 PM on August 12, 2018 [13 favorites]


the official vehicle of fascism is no longer a punctual train (how socialist!), it is a ford f-250 dualie rolling coal on a human face, forever
posted by entropicamericana at 6:02 PM on August 12, 2018 [19 favorites]


Unicorn Riot leaks logs from the alt-right’s “most elite” server concerning planning for unite the right’s second rally rally.

The discord server was named “Vibrant Diversity” cause of course it was
posted by The Whelk at 6:11 PM on August 12, 2018 [16 favorites]


Life in a fascist state is objectively worse even for the "privileged" masses, because that privilege is only there to buy their acquiescence in, e.g., wars of aggression. But still, the privileged masses generally enjoy their time in the sun with things like free healthcare and workers' holidays. It's quite remarkable that so many Americans support the intrusions of a police state despite the fact that they're not being rewarded. Literally all they're getting is the knowledge that immigrants and POCs have it worse.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:19 PM on August 12, 2018 [19 favorites]


This thread is currently running greater than two comments per one nazi that showed up to this rally.

‘Unite the Right’ flops while the left triumphs
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 7:18 PM on August 12, 2018 [16 favorites]


@ellievhall [video]: This gentleman at the #unitetheright counterprotest has a tuba that lights up with “Fuck Trump” when he plays it.
posted by zachlipton at 8:52 PM on August 12, 2018 [35 favorites]


Unite the Right’ flops while the left triumphs

It’s spookily like the author of that WaPo piece has been reading this thread.
posted by Rumple at 9:04 PM on August 12, 2018 [4 favorites]


For any journalists reading this: If it's possible, can we in the future start naming neo Nazis with their middle name, serial killer style? Since many of these turds have generic whitebread names it would help to preserve their identity for future employers' Google searches and reduce their ability to say "oh no you have me confused with a different Elliott Kline".
posted by benzenedream at 11:27 PM on August 12, 2018 [15 favorites]


People present at Kent State when the police slaughtered protestors understand this, and I fear it will take another Kent State for a younger generation to really understand how dangerous this point in time is.

While I agree 100% with the point you're making, it wasn't the police who were doing the shooting at Kent State, it was the National Guard. In a way that's even worse - the fact that the university called in the military to confront a campus anti-war demonstration, and their response was to kill unarmed people (including two students who were just walking to class).

Police were, however, responsible for the shootings of two Black protestors at Jackson State 11 days later.
posted by Umami Dearest at 12:52 AM on August 13, 2018 [7 favorites]


Unite the right 2 accurately portrayed in gif form.
posted by supercrayon at 1:57 AM on August 13, 2018 [3 favorites]


There's a documented history of violent attacks by Kessler and Unite the Right that killed an innocent person.

On NPR's 7 am drive time broadcast, they're still doing the thing where they say Heather Heyer "was killed" when "a car drove into a crowd."

Nary a peep about how she was killed deliberately by a white supremacist driving the car in to the crowd. NPR is counting on its listeners to remember Heyer's killing was a deliberate act while softening their reporting so it plausibly sounds like an accident.

Passive voice, the refuge of cowards.
posted by Gelatin at 4:23 AM on August 13, 2018 [29 favorites]


Ran into a reminder of how much the white nationalism of today is just a continuation of the past, with The Mike Wallace Interview from July 1957 of Glenn McCarthy, some Texas oil millionaire guy (video, direct .flv link, transcript):
 WALLACE: All right, Glenn, as far as mixing between white and Negro, you're against it. You've said, "You just can't breed a prize bull with a scrub heifer..." and you've said it frequently. What do you mean by that?
 McCARTHY: But, first I want to answer your question that I have no prejudice in race, creed, or color, for that matter. I don't think that the time is right for... I think it's completely out-of-time at this time to force this idea on the southern states.
 WALLACE: But specifically that quote. That's one that you use, and use a lot. What do you mean by it?
 McCARTHY: Well, it would be a long explanation.
 WALLACE: Why?
 McCARTHY: To try to explain what you mean by that er... you... when you try to raise registered cattle, you attempt to put registered bulls with registered heifers...
 WALLACE: Are you suggesting that the white is a prize bull, and the Negro is a scrub heifer?
 McCARTHY: I'm not saying it in that way, I don't believe. But, I'd rather go this route: I'd rather say that such things as have been done over many, many years in many of the South American countries; and, the South American countries are at least a hundred years, many of them, a hundred years behind the progress in the United States. Yet they have more actual natural resources and more country to explore than all of the United States or that any state has ever had.
 WALLACE: And you think that's because of miscegenation, mixing between the races?
 McCARTHY: They're a hundred years behind and I think that that has had a tremendous amount of effect upon it.
 WALLACE: Science, of course, disagrees with you, as you know, Glenn. Let me read from a study called Race and Other Kindred Delusions, by Dr. M. F. Ashley Montagu, Professor of Anatomy at the Hahnemann Medical College in Philadelphia, when he wrote it. Dr. Montagu said, "There's no evidence that any people is either mentally superior or inferior to any other people. This concept of race," he said, "is nothing but a convenient myth and a willful delusion."
 Obviously, we haven't got time to go into the whole problem of race relations, Glenn, but, let me note this: As you know, we spoke with your wife about the marriage of one of your daughters, Glenna Lee, to the son of a Greek shoemaker. And your wife told us this: she said, "I must say that Glenna's marriage was an education for all of us."
 She said, "I was brought up to think that Greeks and people like that were different, not as good as us. But, now that I know the boy, I think that Greeks are even more affectionate family people than we are; he's a fine boy." Now could it be that your feelings about Negroes are as unfair as the prejudices that your wife used to have about Greeks?
 McCARTHY: I have no prejudice against the Negro; and I'm not saying exactly what you're saying, Mike. I'm saying that the time is not right for that... all our efforts have been made... I think it's going to be detrimental to all of us. And, I think also that we're getting a little bit away from our states' rights that we ought to have... away from the Constitution of the United States.
And this guy was just brought on as a celebrity, as opposed to people like the subsequently-interviewed Senator James Eastland or Eldon Edwards, Imperial Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan. (Index of interviews—there were some non-horrible people interviewed too.)
posted by XMLicious at 4:29 AM on August 13, 2018 [7 favorites]


A must read article at Politico

Stephen Miller is an Immigration Hypocrite. I Know Because I’m His Uncle.
If my nephew’s ideas on immigration had been in force a century ago, our family would have been wiped out.
By DAVID S. GLOSSER
August 13, 2018

"I have watched with dismay and increasing horror as my nephew, who is an educated man and well aware of his heritage, has become the architect of immigration policies that repudiate the very foundation of our family’s life in this country."
.
posted by pjsky at 5:37 AM on August 13, 2018 [28 favorites]


I went down with four friends yesterday and we comprised roughly 1/5 of the Nazis. So that was nice. The counterprotest crowd was really diverse, which was also nice. We saw the police escort three white vans in, which turned out to be the Nazis. I managed to weasel my way up to the barrier and saw all 12 of them from a distance. Two of them, including one beefy gentleman in a vest and one doofus with a helmut, kept trying to approach the counterprotesters and were promptly shooed away by the police. Best quote at the barrier: "Look, it's Trump's inauguration crowd." There was a massive police presence (I heard the entire DC police force) who indeed felt like they were protecting the Nazis rather than the citizens who pay their salaries. However they weren't going out of their way to police the counterprotesters either. At one point the counterprotesters first climbed and then removed barriers walling off some grass and planting and the police let that happen, which was wise I think. (Nice older woman next to me: "YOU CAN'T FIX THE SYSTEM! YOU CAN'T FIX -- Oh look, that guy is stepping on all those gorgeous red tipped begonias...") I saw one woman get injured when she fell off a roof that several people had climbed on. At the end no one really knew that the Nazis had left -- people up at the front were debating it and checking their phones for news reports to figure it out. All in all a massive fizzle for the Nazis and a lot of people making the point that they weren't welcome here.
posted by Cocodrillo at 5:48 AM on August 13, 2018 [16 favorites]


There were lots and lots of nazis at the rally.

It’s just that most of them were disguised as cops.
posted by winna at 6:15 AM on August 13, 2018 [27 favorites]


“Can’t get time off to attend, gotta work overtime.”
posted by Artw at 6:30 AM on August 13, 2018 [5 favorites]


"disguised"
posted by entropicamericana at 6:34 AM on August 13, 2018 [12 favorites]


As I noted in the other thread, one of the two-dozen-odd morans convened for this pathetic affair appears in news coverage to be wearing a Minor Threat "Out of Step" t-shirt, which has to sadden the band (and the image's creator Cynthia Connolly) even more than it does me.

It is a champion case of point-missing shitwittery as well. It's hard to imagine anything less rebellious or more sheeplistic than a dedication to the ideology of white supremacy. Assholes singing the Man's song at the top of their lungs do not get to claim the mantle of insurgent indie cool associated with the band. (What's still more irritating: despite the air cover provided for bozos — and presumably being fully leveraged in this particular instance — by an early, foolish and wildly problematic song called "Guilty of Being White," the band, its label Dischord and lead singer Ian MacKaye have all been associated with progressive and anti-racist activism for over three decades.)
posted by adamgreenfield at 6:38 AM on August 13, 2018 [4 favorites]


They’re also big fans of the guy who stole and crashed a Q400 from SEATAC airport if the #skyking hashtag is anything to go by, on account of an offhand dumbshit racist comment he made.
posted by Artw at 6:49 AM on August 13, 2018


SeaTac guy liked a YouTube video by Shapiro the Not So Tall about how more than half of Muslims are radicalized.

How he hasn't been sued for all his trust fund is worth is left as an exercise to the reader (rich white male cough cough)

Edited for sensitivity.
posted by Yowser at 7:28 AM on August 13, 2018


Oh hey I was also at this, volunteering! There was a fantastic energy at the rally in Freedom Plaza and the Nazis in Lafayette Park were extremely underwhelming, which was great! I was a block away behind a couple of lines of police as they were escorted out; I believe a group of antifa intercepted them and they were held up for a little while and I saw some fireworks going off but I haven't really heard anything much about what happened there.

After the rallying Nazis left there was also some misbehavior by police around 13th and G with kettling and pepper spraying (reports I heard said about a dozen people -- I was a couple of blocks away and I've been trained to do eye washes but when I got there everyone was already being treated so we just handed out snackies to the very nice black bloc members congregating in the area).

Overall I think the feeling among the members of my coalition with whom I spoke is that this went as well as we could reasonably have expected; arrests and injuries were minimal (I heard one of each and, while zero would be better, it could have been a lot worse, and the medics said there weren't any issues with heat stroke or dehydration thanks in part to those of us passing out free snacks and water) and there were thousands more of us than there were of them. It's never over with Nazis but I was EXTREMELY anxious going into this -- look what happened last year! Plus I was meeting a bunch of new people, always scary -- and I was prepared for the worst because it's always smart to be prepared, but it was largely anticlimactic which is honestly such an enormous relief.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:44 AM on August 13, 2018 [55 favorites]


You know, I would have been fine if the DC Metro taped off a portion where they could sit in the back of a bus.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:07 AM on August 13, 2018 [8 favorites]


A big thank you to Mrs. Pterodactyl and all the other antifa contingent who showed up for this. I don't know if I would have had the balls, but having read about preparedness and how to protect yourself, I might grow a pair for the next one.
posted by yoga at 8:35 AM on August 13, 2018 [5 favorites]


I have a different feeling about antifa this week: they undermined our local effort to have a mass anti-Nazi rally.

My SO has been volunteering and working on issues around the growth of the far right for over a year - and was one of the organizers of our local counter-rally to the attempted Nazi march on August 11. And the whole counter-rally just about fell apart because the masked Antifa wouldn't stop harassing the police. Instead of gathering at the agreed upon meeting point, making some statements and having some solidarity with the threatened Muslim community, they moved on their own agenda and surrounded the police (who had created a cordoned off area, just in case the Nazis showed). I'm not one of those who would say Antifa are just like the nazis - since they are not, you know, racist and calling for genocide. But as one of their fellow protesters, their actions just read like a constant own goal. We were trying to hold a rally to show that hate and fear don't belong in our city - but half the people there were screaming at the top of their lungs at police who were just doing their job (standing in a line, intending to keep the Nazis away from the counter-rally and vice versa).

Meanwhile, the rest of the rally lost its credibility with the moderate majority who do not believe in any means necessary. When the mainstream media wrote up the rally, they said nothing about the 150 people in the circle of peace, reciting Muslim prayers and singing Jewish ones -- it was all about the masked people who were screaming at police and harassing (even assaulting) reporters.

I want the world to come out and stand against Nazism and xenophobia. I want a truly mass movement where we all stand together and try to show the Nazis how people can get along without violence. If we have enough people, it won't be dangerous - because even 500 Nazis can't stand against 5000 people peacefully surrounding them. But so many people I know won't come if Antifa are going to keep up with these sorts of tactics.
posted by jb at 10:48 AM on August 13, 2018 [13 favorites]


My comment isn't about anyone here - just to be clear. Just about certain tactics in my local city and how they were definitely not working on Saturday.

Also, the labour group with the sound system left because of the violence. That sucked, though it did mean that we ended up using 'human microphone' techniques for the interfaith service, which unintentionally made it more participatory and communal. It was a really remarkable experience - a hundred+ people, chanting Arabic prayers in unison - not because they all believed, but because they all believed in freedom of religion and love between neighbours.
posted by jb at 10:57 AM on August 13, 2018 [3 favorites]


Supremacists, huh?
posted by coffee and minarets at 11:34 AM on August 13, 2018 [1 favorite]


catching up on some of the videos from the press and i'm not surprised that they're goddamn leftscalators.
posted by numaner at 11:34 AM on August 13, 2018 [2 favorites]


half the people there were screaming at the top of their lungs at police who were just doing their job

The police were "doing their job" for Nazis in a way that they never would have for BLM. They have shown again and again to be agents of white supremacy, and they should be publicly shamed for the harm that they have done and continue to do. Blue Lives Matter rhetoric has no place in a movement opposing fascism.

It is uncomfortable, you're right. It's hard to recognize that your comfort is rooted in the violent oppression of others. We need to do that work anyway.
posted by libraritarian at 12:30 PM on August 13, 2018 [16 favorites]


jb is in Toronto. That makes a difference.
posted by Ruki at 12:34 PM on August 13, 2018 [1 favorite]


jb, I respect what you're saying. I do. But as a long-time anti-racist activist, I gotta say that the whining on the part of the anti-racist left about the unruly antifa folks who show up to confront the reality of what these racist fucks are really about, well... it just doesn't work.

I mean, let's unpack the idea that the "moderate majority" don't support "by any means." When your life is being threatened by white supremacists, when your very existence is being threatened, some people might say that "any means" might be exactly necessary. I mean, doesn't that smack a little overmuch of white liberalism not being willing to really step up when people are being literally traumatized and even threatened with death?

Not to mention the fact that as an organizer, you need to learn to deal with the unruly sorts who don't buy into peacenik pro forma demonstrations. You either have your demonstration away from the racist fucks, where you can be heard and there's not this confrontational atmosphere, but rather a celebration of diversity etc. or you get over the fact that you cannot control other people. When people get angry and confrontational or want to punch nazis, you're going to have to plan for that shit. Keep your folks safe, and keep yourself out of the way.

I don't care what country you're in: people believe in different ideas of how to confront literal nazis. I've been to all kinds of demonstrations where I've been annoyed by black-clad anarcho-kiddies who want to smash shit up or even young folks of color who want to get revenge on some local store by smash and grabbing. Yeah, us older folks know that this "isn't helping" but you gotta realize that people have their reasons for behaving as they do, and a lot of it isn't as ill-thought out as you think.
posted by RedEmma at 12:53 PM on August 13, 2018 [14 favorites]


The police were "doing their job" for Nazis in a way that they never would have for BLM. They have shown again and again to be agents of white supremacy, and they should be publicly shamed for the harm that they have done and continue to do. Blue Lives Matter rhetoric has no place in a movement opposing fascism

The police were doing their job for both groups - to protect the counter rally from the Nazis as much as protect the Nazis from Antifa. That's the thing about a barrier - it goes both ways. And, as far as I have seen at BLM protests in Toronto (where I am, thanks, Ruki), they have also done their job peacefully - even as the protest was against them (as at Pride). I'm not saying never defend youself, but in Toronto on Saturday, the aggressors were not the police.

Our police absolutely has problems with racial profiling and bias. But changing that means working with the police boards to reform police policies and culture. If you just dismiss the entire institution as always and forever part of white supremacy and/or fascism - that undermines any effort to change it - and attacks on individual police officers will just reinforce what prejudices they may have, rather than reforming and educating them.

The majority of people in my city and my country are not anti-police, including myself. We are anti-racist. We were there to protest RACISM and specifically several far-right Islamaphobic and anti-Semitic groups. We weren't there to talk about police policies, and certainly not to assault the people who were there to protect us. As someone married to someone who is visibly Jewish, I was happy to have the police there.

It is uncomfortable, you're right. It's hard to recognize that your comfort is rooted in the violent oppression of others. We need to do that work anyway.

No, my comfort is not rooted in the violent oppression of others. I would be perfectly comfortable if the police stopped carding (our local stop & frisk), and if we did a root and branch reform of community policing - and I have spent years advocating for the end of penal sentences for all but the most violent of criminals (who should probably be in secure mental institutions instead).

My comfort is in NOT getting caught in the crossfire of the fight that Antifa has started with our legally appointed peace officers who were otherwise doing nothing - literally nothing, just standing in a line with bicycles. And my ultimate comfort lies in not giving the near-right any more fuel to dismiss anti-racist actions as crazy violent kids (the vast majority of them white, in a city that is 50% not white) who don't care about public order.

I want to see anti-racist marches that reflect the demographics of my city and to which immigrants, middle aged people, children and seniors feel comfortable attending. Even our local unions left because of the violence Antifa started.
posted by jb at 12:55 PM on August 13, 2018 [4 favorites]


For a little bit of context, Canadian black bloc have a history of being police agent provocateurs. Did you check their boots?
posted by Yowser at 1:05 PM on August 13, 2018 [6 favorites]


I wasn't aware you were talking about police in the US, jb. I don't know enough about the history of policing (or left activism, for that matter) in Canada to make a comment on it. I do stand by my comments as they relate to similar sentiments I've heard in the US, but those aren't directed at you then.
posted by libraritarian at 1:10 PM on August 13, 2018


jb, I respect what you're saying. I do. But as a long-time anti-racist activist, I gotta say that the whining on the part of the anti-racist left about the unruly antifa folks who show up to confront the reality of what these racist fucks are really about, well... it just doesn't work.

I mean, let's unpack the idea that the "moderate majority" don't support "by any means." When your life is being threatened by white supremacists, when your very existence is being threatened, some people might say that "any means" might be exactly necessary. I mean, doesn't that smack a little overmuch of white liberalism not being willing to really step up when people are being literally traumatized and even threatened with death?


Given that the labour folks who left were dominated by middle-aged Jews, I think they know for being threatened by white supremacists. My partner is visibly Jewish. He was working with representatives from a local Muslim organization - who were the primary target of the particular far-right group. When it comes to actual attacks, it's not Antifa hangouts which are the first targets: the first targets are mosques - and the second targets are synagogues and Jewish community centres. We know for danger - we know what the racists fucks are about. Our hijab- and kippah-wearing friends are the ones who are being attacked.

that said, I totally agree: Antifa will never listen to me, and never agree on my tactics. But then again, so many other people in my city don't want to work with Antifa -- and their tactics actively scare people away, including most of the most threatened people (Muslims, recent immigrants).

Final comment: a year or so ago, I attended a march calling for recognition of the Rohingya genocide in Burma (still going on, as far as I know). It was a really interesting experience. It had been organized by the Muslim community, rather than by the social activist community; my husband, myself and a friend from our synagogue were some of the few non-Muslims in attendance. The whole atmosphere was quite different: it was absolutely passionate, and absolutely angry - many of the leaders were Rohingya themselves and had friends and relatives who had been killed already, and the world was doing nothing. But when someone (who did have the classic "activist" look) started the chant, "No Justice, No Peace", the Muslim woman I was marching with looked at me and said, "We can't chant that - it's un-Islamic" - and changed the chant to "Justice! and Peace!"

That's what we all want: Justice and Peace.
posted by jb at 1:10 PM on August 13, 2018 [7 favorites]


Re Black Bloc being agents provacateur: Ditto on needing to be prepared for that shit.

Demonstrations during times of crisis are going to be full of people you can't stop from doing things you don't like or that are manipulative in provoking violence. That's why you have marshals whose primary job it is to keep your peaceful folks out of the way of the people who want to smash shit up on either side. They need to be trained, wear clear identification, and be willing to talk to the police, the antifa, and even the nazi shitheads whenever it becomes necessary. De-escalation tactics ain't just for the po-po. When groups get pissed off and don't want to attend demonstrations because of the antifa kids making them uncomfortable, then the organizers aren't doing a proper job. I'm not criticizing because I haven't been one of those ill-prepared organizers. I have, and I've learned that these free-for-alls can be avoided with proper planning. You can, by the way, talk to the anti-fa folks about your concerns, ahead of time. Talk about *how* you and they can stay out of each others' way. Talk about the concerns about "last time" and how to change things next time.
posted by RedEmma at 1:20 PM on August 13, 2018 [10 favorites]


I want to see anti-racist marches that reflect the demographics of my city and to which immigrants, middle aged people, children and seniors feel comfortable attending.

I am really sorry about your experience with what sounds like a frustrating group, but I would also like to suggest, very gently, that if you want protests that all members of your community feel comfortable attending, it's worth thinking about whether it's possible for that to happen if you have a bunch of police officers there, even if they're just standing around with bikes. I believe in a diversity of tactics, and that includes spaces for community gatherings and joy as well as more direct confrontation (and, in fact, at the rally portion of yesterday's event there were kids and elderly people and fully geared-up black bloc antifa groups just sort of chilling in the same space), and I'm sorry it sounds like the event you envisioned didn't work out as you'd hoped, but the presence of the police can automatically make an space feel less comfortable for a lot of members of marginalized groups. These issues aren't simple and I just thought I'd point this out as something to consider.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 1:39 PM on August 13, 2018 [17 favorites]


I tend to feel that different groups need to actively organize and coalition-build to achieve marches that use different tactics.

Like, if I go to a march that is sponsored by the IWW, I kind of expect it to be more militant unless it is specifically advertised as less militant/in coalition with groups that routinely host less militant marches. If I go to a CAIR march, I expect it to be less militant, and as a broad generality I have not seen, eg, militant people trying to start stuff at a non-militant march.

Here in MPLS, I feel like at least on the immigrants' rights front, the tone of the marches is pretty successfully varied depending on who has organized the march.

I really think folks need to pay attention to that - not just "don't start shit if it's a march that is intended to be welcoming to undocumented people" but also "don't play Peace Police if antifa have organized against a Klan rally". (I've seen both but not actually that often, tbh.) The one thing that has jumped out at me from the events of the past couple of years, it's that a diversity of tactics truly are important - that's not just an empty slogan.
posted by Frowner at 2:00 PM on August 13, 2018 [9 favorites]


I was thinking about the difference from Charlottesville last year (last year's thread on this) and D.C. this year. I wonder what impact the numerous people being identified and subsequently fired and/or ostracized had on this year's turn-out, or if it the fact that D.C. has a much larger and more diverse population than Charlottesville. Or maybe the fact that every rally or gathering held around the country, the counter-protesters outnumber the racists and Nazis handily, even counting the police presence on their side.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:13 PM on August 13, 2018 [3 favorites]


FWIW, when the Nazis came to Providence, the counter-protest organizers specifically said to leave your kids at home. That made sense to me because Nazis aren’t the most peace loving people and the counter-protest was organized by people who were prepared to get arrested if it came down to it. I’m all for kids at protests, generally speaking, unless it’s Nazis, in which case, I’m perfectly happy to let antifa go wild. (I do get your point, though, jb, especially since the Nazis cancelled by what I read.)
posted by Ruki at 2:20 PM on August 13, 2018 [7 favorites]


I was thinking about the difference from Charlottesville last year (last year's thread on this) and D.C. this year. I wonder what impact the numerous people being identified and subsequently fired and/or ostracized had on this year's turn-out

Naming and shaming, reporting, verifying, documenting. This is the core tactic of anti-fascist groups. Of any group I ve ever heard of calling itself AFA, ARA, or "anti-fa," most hours are spent creating documents / reportage concerning local fascists rather than at the gun club or whatever people imagine.

what s predictable is the media bullshit machine latching onto more spectacular, telegenic tactics. What s worse, reporters latching on to right wing twitter s representation of what anti fascist groups do, rather than the hard work of reporting and publishing intelligence. So then the new recruits have it in their head that AFA meetings without discussing uh, "kinetic" tactics are boring.

Some reporters get it, but when I was younger the reporters always sided with the police because they depended on police contacts in their day to day work. They went to bars with the cops. So proving Sgt Mustaschetown was an actual Nazi or KKK took extraordinary evidence, and evidence collected without the cops and reporters, people who collect evidence all day and know what it looks like, catching on.

Anyway it all seems so easy to document things in 2018 compared to 1995. We used Hi 8 tapes of arrests..hours of prep and processing time. .so Copwatch never really got off the ground compared to the movment that happened once everyone had a handheld video recorder in their pocket, and some wicked smart ladies and queerbos knew what to do with that.

but what still happens is the bullshit machine latching on to the fake concerns of white supremacists without the paid reporters having done their homework of looking into these individuals ' previous pattern of abuse.

Be sure that is difficult and boring work. It s gross to think about making yourself read, like, whatever the new stormfront is in 2018. You do it long enough, and you get bystander trauma, for real. But it would prevent a lot of situations where reporters are tricked into giving KKK types free airtime, if you can document what your local racists do when they think no one is looking.

Naive /absent-minded reporters are a core component of the Nazi media playbook. Which will drive you crazy, because fact checking this is all stuff so many of them learned in J school.

You can play a key anti fascist role by documenting your local assholes, watching their movements. Because most Americans are still pretty appalled by their positions, and it will take a while to eat away at equal protection. Once people are armed with documentation, stars can fall pretty quick, that Milo guy being case in point. There are a thousand Milos you never heard about, because they got named and watched and shunned, interrupted.

But it all starts with basic reportage and verification, the core anti-fa tactic. Yes, you have to do all the work for your local reporter, they don't even have a union.
posted by eustatic at 7:30 PM on August 13, 2018 [19 favorites]


Oh, I meant to say, learn how to file FOIAs and public records requests. Journalists don't get paid to do that anymore, either.
posted by eustatic at 7:32 PM on August 13, 2018 [7 favorites]




I mean, I'm in Toronto too. There's a reason why my communities are terrified of police officers. I don't appreciate the implication that the people who are terrified of the police presence at protests are just faking it or posturing because "it's not as bad" here.
posted by Conspire at 8:22 PM on August 13, 2018 [7 favorites]


Two wrongs don't make a right.

TPS has problems - fix them. Screaming at them does nothing but prejudice them further - and turn away the mass movement we need to ACTUALLY stop Nazis.

We need moderate people to support us - not see us as criminals just as bad as the Nazis.

Now, I know that Antifa aren't as bad as the Nazis - because they aren't racist. But I couldn't convince the guy who had walked in on the rally so - he didn't see the difference. They were thugs, the Nazis are thugs. He called them all fascists.

And even if he's wrong, that doesn't matter. We need people like him - people who aren't 'woke', who are susceptible to the virulent xenophobia being pushed by rags like the Toronto Sun. It sucks, but we have to be better, and more inclusive, and compromising.

Or the Nazis will win. Because you can use violence to promote distrust and hate. You can't use violence to promote tolerance and understanding. The means undermines the ends.

Or maybe I'm just tired. I spent a week planning and promoting and trying to bring out the kind of people who don't go to protests - and I watched it turn into the same, useless battle it's always been, and the only media coverage about how reporters were harassed and assaulted by Antifa, not about the dangers of the growing far right in Canada.

The police can and should be reformed. Fixating on hating them is counterproductive - they are our institution, and we have to fix them.

The far right we need to defuse. We need to discredit and delegitimise. Just doxing individuals may send them underground, but it doesn't deradicalize them. It just leaves them like a ticking time bomb and I don't want to find out that someone I know has died in a mosque or JCC bombing.
posted by jb at 8:52 PM on August 13, 2018 [3 favorites]


A few thoughts:

* There's a small but growing body of research on what actually reduces hate-based violence and reduces the spread of hate-based ideologies. Not my area of expertise, but I generally support the idea of evidence-based planning, decision-making, and argumentation/reasoning.

Again, not my area of expertise, but my impression is that, in general, there have been situations where confronting nazis and fascists physically, ridiculing them, and related tactics have been useful - most famously, confrontations against Mosley in the UK after WWII and the original Anti-Racist Action and similar/predecessor groups' work to keep them out of punk (and, to some extent, heavy metal) circles in the '70s and '80s. On the other hand, the SPLC recommends holding (non-confrontational) counter rallies at a distance to take the media attention away from hate groups while still clearly showing overwhelming community support for inclusive values (not just ignoring the hate).

I note that the contexts of these examples are quite different. One: just after a war had been fought against original nazis, with broad public support for shutting that shit down hard and fast. Two: a subculture generally ignored by the broader culture at a time (so public media strategy issues not relevant), with nazis/fascists working on active recruiting campaigns. Three: the Post-Dispatch rights movement US, situations that would receive media coverage, nazis or other hate group in a politically and socially weak position, but also weak public support for countering hate and widespread low-level or structural bigotry against those targetted by the hate group. Context is important in most things, I think likely including what strategies or combinations of strategies most effectively counter hate-based violence and ideologies.

* It seems to me unlikely that one single strategy will suffice in any given context, however.

* The context in Toronto is that hate groups (nazis/so-called alt right) don't have the political support from the federal government or widespread social support that they currently have in the US with the Trump administration. They do now have local political support with Ford II, and social support has been increasing, since stuff south of the border always affects Canada. There is a history of white supremacist groups in nearby parts of Canada from the '70s and '80s (what was that movie with Sarah Polley?), though those groups were forced underground and got smaller for a bit. In recent times history, the police have been one of the primary vectors of violence against many of the group's targetted by the new hate groups, however.

* "Don't feed the trolls" clearly doesn't work as a strategy. It seems to bear a significant portion of the blame for how we got to the current state of affairs with these so-called alt-right groups, in fact. Hate needs to be confronted in some manner. My sense is that we all agree on that in this thread and are just arguing about tactics. But this is not a matter of widespread agreement in, say, the Commentariat classes in the US or Canada, unfortunately.

* I'm on my phone where looking up links is difficult, but there was something in the past few months (here? getting sent around Facebook?) pointing out that if one's support for another's human rights is contingent on that person asking politely or behaving in a manner one desires, then I've is not really an "ally" and not in fact actually supporting the human rights of the other person.

* Many of us are potential targets of these resurgent nazi/fascist and affiliated groups - Jewish people obviously (though as noted above, not so obviously apparently to some, unfortunately), immigrants in general, Latinx people but especially those who look more Indigenous and less European, Muslims, Native Americans/First Nations, transgender folks, other queer folks, women (recall that these groups are an amalgam of traditional white supremacists and anti-women subcultures from the internet (and offline)), differently abled folks, etc. Different sub-groups of us are vulnerable in different ways, though, based on factors such as citizenship/residency status, economic status, etc. Me, I'm relatively privileged among targetted groups, so the violence or harm I mostly have to potentially worry about comes from the random extremists in these hate groups, and based on where I live and my situation, I don't have a lot of immediate or direct worry (more general anxiety about the overall situation, sure I've got lots; but empirically it's not the same sort of immediate threat to me). But for lots of people I know, the primary source of violence and harm in their lives - which they are in fact directly experiencing - comes from police, landlords, and the official structures they have to interact with. The hate groups marching in the streets are a bit more extreme and do represent a new and worse threat, but so far are mostly verbalizing or making plain the basic ideology behind the violence and harms they are already experiencing.

I note that economic class is one of the main factors that affect how and from whom one experiences hate-based violence and harms.

So: who is the most immediate or ongoing threat to each of us definitely affects strategy and tactics. And the fact that different groups of us experience different variations on the same over-arching threat indicates to me that we need a variety of tactics and strategies. It is absolutely more useful to build solidarity among groups differently affected, so that we don't get in each others' way, work at cross purposes, or inadvertently support the extremists' goals of weakening us through division. However, that goes in both directions. Yes, jb, it's not great if a group crashes the protest event that you have organized and employs tactics that are not the best for your specific group. In particular, if a group shows up to a protest where another group has experienced a lot of non-starter violence (eg. say survivors of domestic violence) and is confrontational toward police right in the midst of the other group and without coordination, then you're just adding on to harm or trauma the one group has already experienced. But at the same time, there is a definite tendency for those of us in relatively privileged positions to forget to think of or reach out to more marginalized groups, and to fail to take into account how our tactics might interfere with or set back their efforts at their locus of struggle. It is my firm belief that those of us in relatively privileged positions, even though we also are experiencing harm from the same hate groups, have a greater ability and thus a greater responsibility to do that reaching out and coordination work. I.e., if you think it's going to be counterproductive for groups employing more militant tactics to participate in your protest, it's your responsibility to reach out ahead of time, coordinate proactively, and make sure that your protest isn't also working at cross purposes to the needs of those groups. In my opinion.

* Even the SPLC maintains a database of hate groups and specific people involved (in leadership positions, in particular), which they publish much of online. Those featured in the SPLC database like to complain of this as "doxxing". The SPLC doesn't seem too concerned about this "just send[ing] them underground", and they gave decades of experience countering hate groups, so. They also seem to prefer the demo style that you prefer, for what it's worth. If you haven't yet, I highly recommend spending some time poking around their web site and resources.
posted by eviemath at 5:45 AM on August 14, 2018 [9 favorites]


** "post-civil rights movement". No idea what my phone was thinking when it auto-corrected to "Post-Dispatch".
posted by eviemath at 6:13 AM on August 14, 2018 [1 favorite]


** also, "non-state violence", not "non-starter violence". Holy moly I should have read the preview more closely before posting! :(
posted by eviemath at 6:17 AM on August 14, 2018


On the other hand, the SPLC recommends holding (non-confrontational) counter rallies at a distance to take the media attention away from hate groups while still clearly showing overwhelming community support for inclusive values (not just ignoring the hate).

Ignoring the hate is exactly the wrong thing to do -- which is we just spent the whole week trying to raise awareness among the mainstream media and public at large. My husband has also been diving into the research literature on radicalization and hate movements, and how they work (less of a plan than an emergent pattern). Ignoring them is what they want - it emboldens them when we tolerate them.

But yes, I disagree on tactics. We won't be able to demonstrate overwhelming community support for inclusive values if the majority of our communities won't come out to protests with violence.

But at the same time, there is a definite tendency for those of us in relatively privileged positions to forget to think of or reach out to more marginalized groups, and to fail to take into account how our tactics might interfere with or set back their efforts at their locus of struggle.

In that case, we should have been taking lead from the Muslim community in Toronto. This did not happen, and there is very little to no coordination between the Muslim community and the activist community here (partly because the Muslim community doesn't fit leftist expectations). When I did attend a protest organized by the Muslim community, it was extremely different in tone and tactics.
posted by jb at 8:02 AM on August 14, 2018 [1 favorite]


Screaming at them does nothing but prejudice them further

Ever notice how people never claim that white people screaming at cops, even when it's obviously "racially charged" (e.g., "Why don't you go after the real criminals?!?") doesn't make them hate white people? It's almost like the screaming isn't really the main problem in that equation.
posted by Etrigan at 8:06 AM on August 14, 2018 [15 favorites]


those of us in relatively privileged positions

We also need to be wary of assuming that all marginalized people have the same needs - or that activists understand those needs. I work in disability research, live with three disabled people, and have a mental illness. People in my family have at times been homeless; I have lived for long years in social housing and/or on social assistance. We don't all feel the same way about everything.

This is a bit of inside-Ontario history, but I remember when the Ontario Coalition against Poverty (OCAP) were holding protests against the welfare cuts and stopped the Santa Claus Parade. My aunt - who at the time was on welfare with three kids (and would struggle desperately under those cuts) - was appalled at how they portrayed her and people like her - and how they ruined her kids' day at the parade. Maybe OCAP should have talked to some of the people they were advocating for.

Ever notice how people never claim that white people screaming at cops, even when it's obviously "racially charged" (e.g., "Why don't you go after the real criminals?!?") doesn't make them hate white people? It's almost like the screaming isn't really the main problem in that equation.

The group of Antifa at the counter rally in Toronto were majority white. 90%? I'm not a good crowd estimator. But much whiter than the city in general.
posted by jb at 8:13 AM on August 14, 2018


My comfort is in NOT getting caught in the crossfire of the fight that Antifa has started with our legally appointed peace officers who were otherwise doing nothing - literally nothing, just standing in a line with bicycles.

I think a thing that you're missing is that antifa wasn't the Johnny-come-lately to the party - you were. Yes, you organized this one particular protest against Nazis, but antifa's been showing out against the Nazis for the last thirty years. And the police, during that time, have not been the kindly 'peace officers' you see them as. They have beaten them brutally - yes, even in Canada. I know for a fact it's happened in Montreal, and I doubt it's confined there. Police have been beating anti-fascist anarchists for decades, so much so that it's a dog-bites-man story.

So when you see antifa yelling at the police and you call it a "fight that Antifa has started", you are the one who is in the wrong. They didn't start the fight - police protecting fascists over the past decades started the fight.

I am genuinely sorry that the moderate liberals you were hoping to rally were so horrified by antifa shouting at the police that they never want to come back to an anti-racist protest again. But I definitely agree with others that if that's their line, then they don't really believe that strongly in fighting Nazis in the first place - and I would definitely not blame the people who've been showing up all day every day to fight Nazis, rather than the fair-weather-moderate whose moral displeasure was more important to him than confronting Nazis in the streets.
posted by corb at 8:56 AM on August 14, 2018 [22 favorites]


This is a bit of inside-Ontario history, but I remember when the Ontario Coalition against Poverty (OCAP) were holding protests against the welfare cuts and stopped the Santa Claus Parade. My aunt - who at the time was on welfare with three kids (and would struggle desperately under those cuts) - was appalled at how they portrayed her and people like her - and how they ruined her kids' day at the parade. Maybe OCAP should have talked to some of the people they were advocating for.

Huh? OCAP was a coalition of mostly low income people. But yes, I agree, and was trying to point out, that it is indeed the case that not all marginalized people have the same needs.
posted by eviemath at 12:12 PM on August 14, 2018 [1 favorite]


This is completely anecdotal:

I am all for Nazi punching. In general, in theory, and almost always in practice. But I noticed that I have a visceral gut reaction to seeing hints of violence in a majority crowd. Even knowing that the police are on the side of the Nazis, even knowing that basically all social institutions are set up to privilege and protect fucking Nazis, if there are thousands of anti-Nazi protesters and only a few dozen Nazis, my gut recoils at intimations of violence from the anti-Nazi protestors. I did not expect this, because of the gleeful Nazi punching proclivities, and it is new to me. It feels like just an animal fear reaction to seeing a potential mob in such a one-sided confrontation. Like, DANGER, DO NOT LIKE.

I have the same reaction to seeing, like, a single Nazi on the street. But it was interesting to me to note that it kicked in just on the basis of intimations of violence + lopsided crowd size.
posted by schadenfrau at 12:38 PM on August 14, 2018 [6 favorites]


Imma leave this here:
First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
posted by basalganglia at 3:59 PM on August 14, 2018 [14 favorites]




They were going for $88K but they undershot.
posted by contraption at 8:51 PM on August 14, 2018 [10 favorites]


The organizer of the Charlottesville rally just got humiliated by his own father - Zack Beauchamp, Vox
I reported from the “Unite the Right 2” rally in Washington on Sunday. It was a dreary failure that attracted around 30 people in total and literally ended before it was supposed to start. I interviewed one alt-right supporter who had been confused by the poorly updated rally website and ended up missing the entire demonstration; I walked around the crowd of counterprotesters that dwarfed the neo-Nazis by orders of magnitude.

But as pathetic as of all that was, none of it was quite as hilariously humiliating to the alt-right as the video below — in which the rally’s organizer, Jason Kessler, is yelled at by his father to get out of his parents’ room in the middle of a live stream with a fellow alt-righter.

Kessler says, during the live stream, that he has been forced to move in with his parents after a series of lawsuits stemming from last year’s violence sapped his funds. It’s an arrangement neither he nor his father seems pleased about.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:21 AM on August 15, 2018 [6 favorites]


I've been iffy about The Atlantic lately, but this is solid info. ZDF in Germany interviewed a co-leader of the far-right AdF party, and here is how they handled him.

Of course, he was livid afterwards. But if you're going to prop your group up as a political party or political movement, then I think it's fair to ask the same questions on policy as one would for any other party. Here is a terrific example of one method the press can use to cover these people, and not let them dominate the media with their hateful narrative.
posted by droplet at 11:35 AM on August 15, 2018 [3 favorites]


While viewing the livestream Fizz linked to on Monday I took note of the “Ruptly” logo in the corner as I didn't recognize it, especially once I realized it was covering pro-Nazi speakers.

Then I was startled to see the same logo in a documentary from Deutsche Welle—“Investigating war crimes using modern technology” (1, 2)—wherein a video clip was simultaneously overlaid with both the Ruptly and RT logos.

So just something to be aware of: Ruptly is evidently a wholly-owned affiliate of Russia Today headquartered in Germany.
posted by XMLicious at 2:06 PM on August 15, 2018 [2 favorites]


Also, interesting point from that documentary: one technique they're using to cross-reference and correlate still photos and video from social media and match up time indexes is based on comparing one plume of smoke which appears from multiple views. So, if you have the misfortune of being present and filming during an event like that, getting shots of the sky can apparently be useful in addition to documenting what's happening on the ground.
posted by XMLicious at 2:25 PM on August 15, 2018 [1 favorite]


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