“Sometimes your hero was the antagonist all along.”
August 13, 2018 8:31 AM Subscribe
The Beloved Characters We Have to Leave Behind [Waypoint] “My favorite musical of all time, one of the few that I will happily just sit down and watch, is George Cukor’s 1964 adaptation of My Fair Lady with Rex Harrison and Audrey Hepburn. Itself an adaptation of George Bernard Shaw’s Pygmalion, it tells the story of a Cockney flower girl named Eliza Doolittle, who is taken under the instruction of professor of language and phonetics, Professor Henry Higgins. [...] I realized, watching the play, that I’ve only partially outgrown Higgins, or characters like him. It’s rather far more accurate to say that I’ve grown into the characters that surround him.”
“Now I’m older, and I find it easier to see the story from other characters’ perspectives, and that makes a character’s flaws harder to write off as the charming peccadillos of a Great Man. Higgins isn’t as great or as special as he makes himself out to be, and even if he were, it still wouldn’t excuse the thoughtless way he treats his friends, collaborators, and employees. [...] What about you? Who are your aspirational heroes and characters who you have developed a troubled relationship with?”
“Now I’m older, and I find it easier to see the story from other characters’ perspectives, and that makes a character’s flaws harder to write off as the charming peccadillos of a Great Man. Higgins isn’t as great or as special as he makes himself out to be, and even if he were, it still wouldn’t excuse the thoughtless way he treats his friends, collaborators, and employees. [...] What about you? Who are your aspirational heroes and characters who you have developed a troubled relationship with?”
And sometimes the songs and sets and actors overshadow our understandings of the film's themes. And the applauded 'new ending' is Shaw's original ending, and many songs were cut from the musical in previews, an uneasy evolution.
Characters In My Fair Lady Who Are Not Henry Higgins I Would Rather Have Seen Eliza Doolittle End Up With, Daniel Mallory Ortberg
Alfred P. Doolittle is the best character in My Fair Lady
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:46 AM on August 13, 2018 [16 favorites]
Characters In My Fair Lady Who Are Not Henry Higgins I Would Rather Have Seen Eliza Doolittle End Up With, Daniel Mallory Ortberg
Alfred P. Doolittle is the best character in My Fair Lady
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:46 AM on August 13, 2018 [16 favorites]
All of the heroes from Heinlein’s adult books (who are, let’s face it, the same character with different names) fit the bill for me. When I was a young man they were smart, powerful figures to be admired. Now I recognize them as boorish, emotionally stunted and borderline psychotic.
The concept of growing into the characters surrounding the problematic character really resonates with me, as it puts a finger on how and why my attitude changed. It wasn’t so much a rejection of the lead as a growing empathy for the characters who had to deal with him.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:50 AM on August 13, 2018 [27 favorites]
The concept of growing into the characters surrounding the problematic character really resonates with me, as it puts a finger on how and why my attitude changed. It wasn’t so much a rejection of the lead as a growing empathy for the characters who had to deal with him.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:50 AM on August 13, 2018 [27 favorites]
What about you? Who are your aspirational heroes and characters who you have developed a troubled relationship with?”
maybe it was the times (hitting puberty in the early 1970s) but I seemed to stumble directly from kid's stuff to adult characters who were so obviously warts-and-all (Jack Crabb in Little Big Man, Yossarian in Catch-22, Randal Patrick McMurphy in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest come quickly to mind) that I don't think "aspirational" applies. Unless what I was aspiring to was just somehow managing to stay halfway sane in a world that was demanding otherwise. My real life heroes on the other hand (various rock and movie and sports stars) -- that's where the trouble came. But isn't that part of the job definition for a real life hero? That they will eventually disappoint, because absolutely nobody's perfect. Which I suppose my fictional heroes had already prepared me for.
posted by philip-random at 9:10 AM on August 13, 2018
maybe it was the times (hitting puberty in the early 1970s) but I seemed to stumble directly from kid's stuff to adult characters who were so obviously warts-and-all (Jack Crabb in Little Big Man, Yossarian in Catch-22, Randal Patrick McMurphy in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest come quickly to mind) that I don't think "aspirational" applies. Unless what I was aspiring to was just somehow managing to stay halfway sane in a world that was demanding otherwise. My real life heroes on the other hand (various rock and movie and sports stars) -- that's where the trouble came. But isn't that part of the job definition for a real life hero? That they will eventually disappoint, because absolutely nobody's perfect. Which I suppose my fictional heroes had already prepared me for.
posted by philip-random at 9:10 AM on August 13, 2018
Wow, Shaw's own words really express it best don't they? I hadn't realized he'd spoken so strongly about the changed ending in the movie:
I cannot conceive a less happy ending to the story of Pygmalion than a love affair between the middle-aged professor, a confirmed old bachelor with a mother-fixation, and a flower girl of 18. Nothing of the kind was emphasize in my scenario, where I emphasized the escape of Eliza from the tyranny of Higgins by a quite natural love affair with Freddy.
posted by peacheater at 9:17 AM on August 13, 2018 [58 favorites]
I cannot conceive a less happy ending to the story of Pygmalion than a love affair between the middle-aged professor, a confirmed old bachelor with a mother-fixation, and a flower girl of 18. Nothing of the kind was emphasize in my scenario, where I emphasized the escape of Eliza from the tyranny of Higgins by a quite natural love affair with Freddy.
posted by peacheater at 9:17 AM on August 13, 2018 [58 favorites]
(The above from the man of twists and turn's Shaw's original link)
posted by peacheater at 9:18 AM on August 13, 2018
posted by peacheater at 9:18 AM on August 13, 2018
There was just an Askme about this, regarding jokes that don't stand up well.
posted by Melismata at 9:23 AM on August 13, 2018
posted by Melismata at 9:23 AM on August 13, 2018
(And sorry, I could just never, EVER get past Harrison's non-singing during songs. YMMV.)
posted by Melismata at 9:26 AM on August 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 9:26 AM on August 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
This is, of course, also a huge issue in music, where the hero worship can be even more pronounced and the supporting characters are seen almost elusively through the speakers lens.
My three favorite records for a looong time were Cursive's Domestica, The Mountain Goat's Tallahassee, and the Nationals Alligator. Ask me how my romantic relationships have gone.
posted by es_de_bah at 9:32 AM on August 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
My three favorite records for a looong time were Cursive's Domestica, The Mountain Goat's Tallahassee, and the Nationals Alligator. Ask me how my romantic relationships have gone.
posted by es_de_bah at 9:32 AM on August 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
Years ago. Mrs. Mosley and I took a trip to D.C. and went to a performance of "My Fair Lady" just outside of town at the Wolf Trap theater. I have two distinct memories from this:
1) The play started before sunset and ended after. So we saw this brilliant colored sky growing to dark in between these massive wooden columns that, I have to say, had more of my attention than the play. It was stunning.
2) After the last line where Higgins tells her to fetch his slippers, Mrs. Mosley turned to me and, though I don't remember the precise wording, told me, "that ending is pretty fucked up".
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 9:35 AM on August 13, 2018 [13 favorites]
1) The play started before sunset and ended after. So we saw this brilliant colored sky growing to dark in between these massive wooden columns that, I have to say, had more of my attention than the play. It was stunning.
2) After the last line where Higgins tells her to fetch his slippers, Mrs. Mosley turned to me and, though I don't remember the precise wording, told me, "that ending is pretty fucked up".
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 9:35 AM on August 13, 2018 [13 favorites]
Needs a supercut with Marry Poppins where Mary settles in with the two old guys and Eliza dances off on rooftops with the young Dick Van Dyke chimney sweep character.
posted by sammyo at 9:35 AM on August 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by sammyo at 9:35 AM on August 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
Who are your aspirational heroes and characters who you have developed a troubled relationship with?
Most of the "bohemian" cast of Rent. Angel killed a dog! Tom Collins gets mad that universities want him to teach from a syllabus! None of them tip their servers! Their voicemails teach us that at least half of them have loving and supportive families who miss them and sometimes send them presents! Mark's movie IS exploitative of the marginalized, and is also terrible! Benny keeps trying to give them jobs and stable housing so they can benefit from the tech boom and continue making their art without being gentrified out of a home and they all hate him for it!
posted by a fiendish thingy at 9:38 AM on August 13, 2018 [51 favorites]
Most of the "bohemian" cast of Rent. Angel killed a dog! Tom Collins gets mad that universities want him to teach from a syllabus! None of them tip their servers! Their voicemails teach us that at least half of them have loving and supportive families who miss them and sometimes send them presents! Mark's movie IS exploitative of the marginalized, and is also terrible! Benny keeps trying to give them jobs and stable housing so they can benefit from the tech boom and continue making their art without being gentrified out of a home and they all hate him for it!
posted by a fiendish thingy at 9:38 AM on August 13, 2018 [51 favorites]
RENT - Look Pretty and Do As Little as Possible: A Video Essay, Lindsay Ellis
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:49 AM on August 13, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:49 AM on August 13, 2018 [12 favorites]
Something I picked up from Tumblr (not sure of proper attribution, sorry):
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:52 AM on August 13, 2018 [36 favorites]
What X-Men Essentially Is:By and large I really don't care for a lot of "deconstructions" of comic book super stuff. It's plain on its face. Even reading Watchmen felt like I was at a pro wrestling event with a cranky old man next to me who wouldn't shut up about how it's fake as if anyone doesn't know. But then I see some of the critiques and counterpoints of X-Men (and particularly the lazy interpretations) and they really stick with me. X-Men is still great, but damn. Wow.
Magneto: We need to do something about Anti-Mutant violence perpetuated by Humans it's going to end up in a Genocide
Xavier: But what about Mutant on Mutant Violence?
Magneto: What?
Xavier: How can humans respect us if we don't respect ourselves?
Magneto: THEY LITERALLY CREATED ROBOTS TO KILL US
Xavier: We need to learn to love ourselves first.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:52 AM on August 13, 2018 [36 favorites]
It’s rather far more accurate to say that I’ve grown into the characters that surround him.
I, too, don't know if "grown into" is the right word, but this is one of the reasons I keep going back to <whispers>Catcher in the Rye</whispers>. I have read it at so many different points of my life, and it always gives me a fresh perspective on who I am, based on my reactions to Holden and the people around him. I suppose the same thing could have happened with any book I loved as a young person and kept re-reading - I suppose a similar thing happened with Alice In Wonderland (talk about a problematic creator), but I guess it is not "real" enough to have the same mirror-to-my-life effect.
posted by Rock Steady at 9:52 AM on August 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
I, too, don't know if "grown into" is the right word, but this is one of the reasons I keep going back to <whispers>Catcher in the Rye</whispers>. I have read it at so many different points of my life, and it always gives me a fresh perspective on who I am, based on my reactions to Holden and the people around him. I suppose the same thing could have happened with any book I loved as a young person and kept re-reading - I suppose a similar thing happened with Alice In Wonderland (talk about a problematic creator), but I guess it is not "real" enough to have the same mirror-to-my-life effect.
posted by Rock Steady at 9:52 AM on August 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
Also re: Rent - actual broke "bohemian" artists generally despise Broadway musicals as commercialized trash. At least in my experience.
posted by dnash at 9:52 AM on August 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by dnash at 9:52 AM on August 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
My wife presented a Fred & Ginger film festival for the Film Society of Lincoln Center last month, for which we had to watch all of their movies – which I've always loved! – but man are some of them problematic. Bad enough that Swing Time has Astaire paying tribute to Bill "Bojangles" Robinson by dancing a number in blackface; but Carefree features Astaire repeatedly hypnotizing Rogers to manipulate her affections – and drugging her to "lower her inhibitions"! – first so she'll marry his best friend and then to steal her from him – before she finally gets knocked unconscious with a sock on the jaw at her wedding to un-hypnotize her. Continual cringes!
posted by nicwolff at 9:53 AM on August 13, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by nicwolff at 9:53 AM on August 13, 2018 [7 favorites]
Ugh I am such a sucker for the "hypercompetent, prickly genius dude" archetype that it's actually embarrassing. All my faves are problematic faves :(
posted by potrzebie at 9:54 AM on August 13, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by potrzebie at 9:54 AM on August 13, 2018 [14 favorites]
I guess I don't have too many lapsed fictional childhood idols, being a woman and not especially into superheros or comic books growing up; yeah, in hindsight Fran Drescher's character from "The Nanny" was in fact annoying and not a competent caregiver. I don't think that's what we're looking for though.
posted by daisystomper at 9:59 AM on August 13, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by daisystomper at 9:59 AM on August 13, 2018 [5 favorites]
If anything, I think I might identify even more strongly with Arthur Dent now than when I first read The Hitchhiker's Guide.
I'm afraid Dirk Gently might come off as a bit of an asshole when I eventually get around to re-reading the two of those some day, though.
posted by tobascodagama at 10:00 AM on August 13, 2018 [14 favorites]
I'm afraid Dirk Gently might come off as a bit of an asshole when I eventually get around to re-reading the two of those some day, though.
posted by tobascodagama at 10:00 AM on August 13, 2018 [14 favorites]
Also, the whole Waypoint crew are really fucking great writers and thinkers and gamers. If you're not into Austin Walker, Danielle Riendeau, Rob Zacny, Patrick Klepek, Natalie Watson, et al. you are missing some great folks that we will be reading for a long time.
posted by Rock Steady at 10:02 AM on August 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Rock Steady at 10:02 AM on August 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
When I was in 9th grade, I turned in an essay on Pygmalion that was actually a story about Eliza and Higgins getting married, going to visit friends in the country, and then Freddy Eynsford-Hill is murdered and Eliza has to solve his murder with Higgins tagging along in the Watson role.
My teacher told me that my OTP was problematic (not in those words) and that Shaw hated it and I should feel bad about shipping bad things (not in those words).
I still think they should get married and solve murders.
posted by betweenthebars at 10:07 AM on August 13, 2018 [12 favorites]
My teacher told me that my OTP was problematic (not in those words) and that Shaw hated it and I should feel bad about shipping bad things (not in those words).
I still think they should get married and solve murders.
posted by betweenthebars at 10:07 AM on August 13, 2018 [12 favorites]
I still think they should get married and solve murders.
This is basically tumblr for all fandom.
posted by Fizz at 10:08 AM on August 13, 2018 [30 favorites]
This is basically tumblr for all fandom.
posted by Fizz at 10:08 AM on August 13, 2018 [30 favorites]
If anything, I think I might identify even more strongly with Arthur Dent now than when I first read The Hitchhiker's Guide.
Yes, so much this... as I have gotten older, I have realized that - outside of work - I am very good at making sandwiches, and that might be nice to do somewhere warm and relaxing... (And that we are all just essentially fumbling through a series of events, mostly out of our control)
posted by jkaczor at 10:10 AM on August 13, 2018 [18 favorites]
Yes, so much this... as I have gotten older, I have realized that - outside of work - I am very good at making sandwiches, and that might be nice to do somewhere warm and relaxing... (And that we are all just essentially fumbling through a series of events, mostly out of our control)
posted by jkaczor at 10:10 AM on August 13, 2018 [18 favorites]
Also, if we're talking video-game characters I identify with, it's basically every NPC or shop-owners in any RPG ever. Whenever I play a game like Zelda or Skyrim, I find myself thinking about the townspeople that live and inhabit the world of our so called hero. It's only something I've started to really think about in the last 10 years but I mostly worry about all the damage/destruction that our hero inflicts in these towns.
And I'm not talking about just physical violence with the battling of demons/monsters. Think about the economy and how messed up it becomes when some hero just hops into your shop and spends thousands upon thousands of gold coins.
posted by Fizz at 10:16 AM on August 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
And I'm not talking about just physical violence with the battling of demons/monsters. Think about the economy and how messed up it becomes when some hero just hops into your shop and spends thousands upon thousands of gold coins.
posted by Fizz at 10:16 AM on August 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
This must have a lot to do with one's emotional and social development - roughly speaking, one's age - when one first encounters the character(s) in question. I don't believe I sat through My Fair Lady until I was 20 or so, and I can't imagine an adult or even a middling adolescent missing Higgins' basic nastiness, which, as I recall, is highlighted explicitly, repeatedly, in the protests and tribulations of those around him. "Higgins is a jerk" isn't subtext, it's text. It's central, the plot doesn't even make sense without a huge serving of classist arrogance.
On the other hand, I also read Heinlein and Pournellle and Niven as a teenager and I totally fell for all their right-wing might-makes-right sexist baloney at the time. I don't know how much of that is me growing up and how much is the chance to read a diversity of opinion and criticism via internet. It's probably mostly internet.
posted by Western Infidels at 10:16 AM on August 13, 2018 [8 favorites]
On the other hand, I also read Heinlein and Pournellle and Niven as a teenager and I totally fell for all their right-wing might-makes-right sexist baloney at the time. I don't know how much of that is me growing up and how much is the chance to read a diversity of opinion and criticism via internet. It's probably mostly internet.
posted by Western Infidels at 10:16 AM on August 13, 2018 [8 favorites]
Who are your aspirational heroes and characters who you have developed a troubled relationship with?
If you aspire to be an artist, then pretty much the entire canon of "important" (i.e. white, male) artists will give you pause, when one considers the goings-on in their personal lives. You end up having to divorce the person from their work. A sort of "hate the player, love the game" mindset.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:19 AM on August 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
If you aspire to be an artist, then pretty much the entire canon of "important" (i.e. white, male) artists will give you pause, when one considers the goings-on in their personal lives. You end up having to divorce the person from their work. A sort of "hate the player, love the game" mindset.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:19 AM on August 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
I haven't re-read Illuminatus! in decades, but if I ever do I suspect I won't be as charmed by Hagbard Celine as I was in my early 20s.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 10:21 AM on August 13, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 10:21 AM on August 13, 2018 [7 favorites]
but I mostly worry about all the damage/destruction that our hero inflicts in these towns
Heh - here is your million-dollar game idea... Kind of like "Redshirts" by MeFi's very own jscalzi, but for gaming...
Hmmm - well, apparently there is "Shoppe Keep", but it might be missing the whole take on how adventurers would destabilize things.
posted by jkaczor at 10:23 AM on August 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
Heh - here is your million-dollar game idea... Kind of like "Redshirts" by MeFi's very own jscalzi, but for gaming...
Hmmm - well, apparently there is "Shoppe Keep", but it might be missing the whole take on how adventurers would destabilize things.
posted by jkaczor at 10:23 AM on August 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
(Also, weirdly enough, this whole process of growth is part of what has been helping me with "uncluttering" my book & media collections. If I know the re-reading something I used to love is going to make me sad and weary instead of nostalgic, I can get rid of it more easily.)
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:29 AM on August 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:29 AM on August 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
The Mountain Goat's Tallahassee
I think John Darnielle would be the very, very, very first to tell you that his narrators and relationships are in no way aspirational. It's really hard for me to imagine even a naive lovestruck teenager looking at the Alpha couple and thinking "relationship goals!" Even his most hopeful songs are more along the lines of making the semi-best of a bad situation, or admiring with vague horror the eldritch energies of fuck-up.
I'm re-reading Portrait of a Lady right now and finding Ralph a more disappointing figure than I'd remembered. Certain cynical observers may not have been wrong in finding his illness rather convenient in letting him off from finding a greater justification for his life.
posted by praemunire at 10:38 AM on August 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
I think John Darnielle would be the very, very, very first to tell you that his narrators and relationships are in no way aspirational. It's really hard for me to imagine even a naive lovestruck teenager looking at the Alpha couple and thinking "relationship goals!" Even his most hopeful songs are more along the lines of making the semi-best of a bad situation, or admiring with vague horror the eldritch energies of fuck-up.
I'm re-reading Portrait of a Lady right now and finding Ralph a more disappointing figure than I'd remembered. Certain cynical observers may not have been wrong in finding his illness rather convenient in letting him off from finding a greater justification for his life.
posted by praemunire at 10:38 AM on August 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
I liked My Fair Lady when I saw it for the first time. Then I got into watching movies from the 1st Golden Age (30's) and saw Pygmalion. I feel that movie is FAR superior to the musical. Especially the character of Alfred Doolittle. In My Fair Lady, he is shown as a much more polished character than Shaw originally imagined. Also the class conflict that forms the basis of Shaw's play is kind of downplayed in the musical. I think the Shaw Quote mentioned here is not about the musical, but the movie adaptation. The Musical was after Shaw's death and the movie was in 1938, while Shaw was still alive. And yes, the ending was changed in the movie too and that is what must have pissed Shaw off.
Then after reading about the history behind the movie; it started bugging me even more. The fact that Rex Harrison cannot sing, the fact that Hepburn's singing was dubbed, the fact that Julie Andrews was snubbed etc etc.
While the musical is still passable, I find the movie to be far superior and a better reflection of Shaw's Social criticism.
BTAIM, the original question here is about characters who have lost their allure as I grow older. Speaking of Indian Mythology; I find the character of Rama in the Ramayana to be too 'un-manly'. If he is the epitome of a 'maryada-purushottam' according to the RSS goons; I am better off as a non-practicing Hindu! I have also come to really appreciate the character of Mary Crawford In Austen's Mansfield Park, who is described by Austen as a pretty loathsome character. The fact that she is an independently wealthy woman allows her to highlight the hypocrisy of the Regency society and I find myself gavitating to her view of the world more and more. Fanny is a ninny. So that is like a reverse; a character that I did not like to begin with, but have come to appreciate more as time goes on.
posted by indianbadger1 at 10:39 AM on August 13, 2018 [9 favorites]
Then after reading about the history behind the movie; it started bugging me even more. The fact that Rex Harrison cannot sing, the fact that Hepburn's singing was dubbed, the fact that Julie Andrews was snubbed etc etc.
While the musical is still passable, I find the movie to be far superior and a better reflection of Shaw's Social criticism.
BTAIM, the original question here is about characters who have lost their allure as I grow older. Speaking of Indian Mythology; I find the character of Rama in the Ramayana to be too 'un-manly'. If he is the epitome of a 'maryada-purushottam' according to the RSS goons; I am better off as a non-practicing Hindu! I have also come to really appreciate the character of Mary Crawford In Austen's Mansfield Park, who is described by Austen as a pretty loathsome character. The fact that she is an independently wealthy woman allows her to highlight the hypocrisy of the Regency society and I find myself gavitating to her view of the world more and more. Fanny is a ninny. So that is like a reverse; a character that I did not like to begin with, but have come to appreciate more as time goes on.
posted by indianbadger1 at 10:39 AM on August 13, 2018 [9 favorites]
The last time I watched The Limey I was weirded out by how (SPOILERS) the protagonist, who has spent the entire movie on a murderous rampage to avenge his daughter's death, and who has finally found the person (her boyfriend) who is responsible for it and has him at his mercy, just...lets him go and wanders off when he finds out that the guy accidentally killed his daughter (and then staged her accidental death) when she threatened to call the cops on his drug trafficking operation, something she used to do to him when she was a little kid and he was a petty criminal. Even if you accept the premise that this "proved" that she loved her boyfriend (because she never actually called the cops on him and presumably wouldn't have done so to her boyfriend) and justified letting him go, there's still the matter of all the people this guy killed over a misunderstanding, most of whom just had the bad luck of being employed by the boyfriend.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:42 AM on August 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:42 AM on August 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
"And I'm not talking about just physical violence with the battling of demons/monsters. Think about the economy and how messed up it becomes when some hero just hops into your shop and spends thousands upon thousands of gold coins."
Thanks to Drunk History, and now Wikipedia I now know what happens! However, Musa's generous actions inadvertently devastated the economies of the regions through which he passed. In the cities of Cairo, Medina, and Mecca, the sudden influx of gold devalued the metal for the next decade. Prices on goods and wares greatly inflated. To rectify the gold market, on his way back from Mecca, Musa borrowed all the gold he could carry from money-lenders in Cairo at high interest.
posted by true at 10:54 AM on August 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
Thanks to Drunk History, and now Wikipedia I now know what happens! However, Musa's generous actions inadvertently devastated the economies of the regions through which he passed. In the cities of Cairo, Medina, and Mecca, the sudden influx of gold devalued the metal for the next decade. Prices on goods and wares greatly inflated. To rectify the gold market, on his way back from Mecca, Musa borrowed all the gold he could carry from money-lenders in Cairo at high interest.
posted by true at 10:54 AM on August 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
I know this feeling. Zach Morris was one of my childhood heroes. :\
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:57 AM on August 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:57 AM on August 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
The word for this feeling is "drizzt."
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:00 AM on August 13, 2018 [20 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:00 AM on August 13, 2018 [20 favorites]
I will say that as a family we've become more and more critical of Batman over the years.
posted by daisystomper at 11:08 AM on August 13, 2018 [20 favorites]
posted by daisystomper at 11:08 AM on August 13, 2018 [20 favorites]
My first reaction is 'Yossarian.' But the thing is, I was always more than a little creeped out by Yossarian. I was I think about 12 when I read Catch-22 the first time, & I remember being a little puzzled by everyone trying to label Yossarian a 'pervert' when what he was, clearly, was an asshole. (Mind you, I loved the book & identified with him pretty strongly, as a fellow-outcast. But I identified even more strongly with Maj Major M. Major, and really aspired to be like Orr.)
My feelings about Randall McMurphy (One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest) are similar, though Kesey is at least dropping hints that maybe we're not supposed to think this is such a great guy outside the power struggle at the heart of the book.
So, I always thought these guys were problematic, but I loved the books, & I thought they were either worth the distraction (Yossarian) or part of the point (McMurphy).
But as I got older, I started to see people making heroes out of these characters. Buck Henry & Mike Nichol's version* of Yossarian gets rid of a lot of the problematic aspects of his character, & Nicholson makes McMurphy the sexy guy everyone wants to be around & be like, and at the end of the day we've created two more asshole-heroes to validate endless cycles of dudebro assholishness.
__
*If the Henry-Nichol version of Yossarian is too-clean, their version of Milo Minderminder is just right. He had to be tightened up to work in film, and they ways they did that were IMO super effective. E.g. recasting the line "Everybody works for Milo" such that Yossarian (and we) get it immediately -- and harder.
posted by lodurr at 11:16 AM on August 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
My feelings about Randall McMurphy (One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest) are similar, though Kesey is at least dropping hints that maybe we're not supposed to think this is such a great guy outside the power struggle at the heart of the book.
So, I always thought these guys were problematic, but I loved the books, & I thought they were either worth the distraction (Yossarian) or part of the point (McMurphy).
But as I got older, I started to see people making heroes out of these characters. Buck Henry & Mike Nichol's version* of Yossarian gets rid of a lot of the problematic aspects of his character, & Nicholson makes McMurphy the sexy guy everyone wants to be around & be like, and at the end of the day we've created two more asshole-heroes to validate endless cycles of dudebro assholishness.
__
*If the Henry-Nichol version of Yossarian is too-clean, their version of Milo Minderminder is just right. He had to be tightened up to work in film, and they ways they did that were IMO super effective. E.g. recasting the line "Everybody works for Milo" such that Yossarian (and we) get it immediately -- and harder.
posted by lodurr at 11:16 AM on August 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
"Nice Guy" misogynist Xander Harris has rendered huge swathes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer unwatchable to me. I loved Xander so much when I was fifteen. Literally every major male BtVS character is now a problematic fave at best, but Xander is like a constant toxic barrage of passive-aggressive putdowns, casual slut-shaming, controlling jealousy, and simmering misogynist resentment, even toward women he calls friends. It's too painful anymore.
posted by nicebookrack at 11:21 AM on August 13, 2018 [43 favorites]
posted by nicebookrack at 11:21 AM on August 13, 2018 [43 favorites]
It may be very well-trod ground, but - I've got a real problem with the way everyone else in Narnia ended up shitting on Susan.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:26 AM on August 13, 2018 [25 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:26 AM on August 13, 2018 [25 favorites]
All my life, I've been fascinated by the kings and queens of the Amarna Period -- Akhenaten, Nefertiti, their families and children. (Previously by me.) As a kid, I thought it was an amazing, exotic tale, full of adventure and intrigue. As an adult, I have come to understand how absolutely miserable it must have been to belong to that family or anyone near them.
They were legends, and yet how much must it have been like being a Trump? The king and his Great Royal Wife, his daughter-queen, his inability to raise up strong male heirs -- he only had two (if that), and the one who survived longest as king, Tutankhamun, was crippled by inbreeding and malaria. Living in that family must have been a more elegant version of being raised by those separatists in trailers that they just found in New Mexico, the ones who were training children to carry out school shootings.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:34 AM on August 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
They were legends, and yet how much must it have been like being a Trump? The king and his Great Royal Wife, his daughter-queen, his inability to raise up strong male heirs -- he only had two (if that), and the one who survived longest as king, Tutankhamun, was crippled by inbreeding and malaria. Living in that family must have been a more elegant version of being raised by those separatists in trailers that they just found in New Mexico, the ones who were training children to carry out school shootings.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:34 AM on August 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
I'm having trouble coming up with an example - I wonder if I sort of filter out the ones who have changed for me and so my childhood heroes are really just the ones I still remember positively.
I do remember watching Ferris Bueller's Day Off and trying to sympathize with him as I was obviously supposed to, but really finding him obnoxious. All the other major characters, with the possible exception of the principal, seemed less annoying. I think if I watched it now I wouldn't try to be a cool girl, I would just call him an asshole.
On the other hand, I loved Elizabeth Bennet as a teen and I like her better as an adult. When I was younger I thought she was so vivacious and I wanted to be that way. When I read her as an adult I saw more of her care for the feelings of others and her willingness to acknowledge being wrong.
posted by Emmy Rae at 11:38 AM on August 13, 2018 [15 favorites]
I do remember watching Ferris Bueller's Day Off and trying to sympathize with him as I was obviously supposed to, but really finding him obnoxious. All the other major characters, with the possible exception of the principal, seemed less annoying. I think if I watched it now I wouldn't try to be a cool girl, I would just call him an asshole.
On the other hand, I loved Elizabeth Bennet as a teen and I like her better as an adult. When I was younger I thought she was so vivacious and I wanted to be that way. When I read her as an adult I saw more of her care for the feelings of others and her willingness to acknowledge being wrong.
posted by Emmy Rae at 11:38 AM on August 13, 2018 [15 favorites]
What X-Men Essentially Is
like the T-Shirt says, Magneto made some valid points.
posted by Artw at 11:41 AM on August 13, 2018 [5 favorites]
like the T-Shirt says, Magneto made some valid points.
posted by Artw at 11:41 AM on August 13, 2018 [5 favorites]
(Would thoroughly recommend the Xplain the X-Men podcast, origin of the T-Shirt, for further explorations into why Professor X is just all round terrible most of the time.)
posted by Artw at 11:42 AM on August 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:42 AM on August 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
Whenever I play a game like Zelda or Skyrim, I find myself thinking about the townspeople that live and inhabit the world of our so called hero. It's only something I've started to really think about in the last 10 years but I mostly worry about all the damage/destruction that our hero inflicts in these towns.
And, just like real life, if you do anything even slightly annoying while looking like an ethnic minority, people will make a meme out of torturing and murdering you in elaborate ways!
posted by tobascodagama at 11:43 AM on August 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
And, just like real life, if you do anything even slightly annoying while looking like an ethnic minority, people will make a meme out of torturing and murdering you in elaborate ways!
posted by tobascodagama at 11:43 AM on August 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
praemunire, albums about horrible, codependent relationships are like movies about the horrors of war (or horror movies in general for that matter): they can't help but be sexy, in their way.
posted by es_de_bah at 11:44 AM on August 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by es_de_bah at 11:44 AM on August 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
I do remember watching Ferris Bueller's Day Off and trying to sympathize with him as I was obviously supposed to, but really finding him obnoxious.
That reminds me -- I didn't really like Westley in The Princess Bride. He just about hit her! Why wouldn't he just take off his mask and make her happy? He was mean. Even as a kid surrounded by a lot of bad ideas about boys, I knew this wasn't right. But I liked the movie, because I liked Inigo. He was never mean to her. (Except for the kidnapping, of course, but as I said, bad ideas about boys.)
As a teen, and a feminist teen at that, I was inexplicably fond of Alfred Bester's The Stars My Destination. Occasionally there's talk about a movie, because the book was a classic in its time, but the hero is a rapist and a monster, and the female characters are terrible, which might be why it never really took off. (Plus the main female character is named "Jisbella," which ... no.) I don't know why I never perceived this as such a problem. Maybe it was that I really, really wanted revenge in my life, and the book was all about getting revenge.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:49 AM on August 13, 2018 [10 favorites]
That reminds me -- I didn't really like Westley in The Princess Bride. He just about hit her! Why wouldn't he just take off his mask and make her happy? He was mean. Even as a kid surrounded by a lot of bad ideas about boys, I knew this wasn't right. But I liked the movie, because I liked Inigo. He was never mean to her. (Except for the kidnapping, of course, but as I said, bad ideas about boys.)
As a teen, and a feminist teen at that, I was inexplicably fond of Alfred Bester's The Stars My Destination. Occasionally there's talk about a movie, because the book was a classic in its time, but the hero is a rapist and a monster, and the female characters are terrible, which might be why it never really took off. (Plus the main female character is named "Jisbella," which ... no.) I don't know why I never perceived this as such a problem. Maybe it was that I really, really wanted revenge in my life, and the book was all about getting revenge.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:49 AM on August 13, 2018 [10 favorites]
Fizz: Whenever I play a game like Zelda or Skyrim, I find myself thinking about the townspeople that live and inhabit the world of our so called hero. It's only something I've started to really think about in the last 10 years but I mostly worry about all the damage/destruction that our hero inflicts in these towns.
I have that reaction whenever I watch an action movie (which isn't often). "Who exactly is going to pay for the cleanup? Is this a federal responsibility, or is it state? Insurance? Do action heroes need action hero insurance for all the stuff they destroy in the course of Saving The World?"
posted by clawsoon at 12:03 PM on August 13, 2018 [10 favorites]
I have that reaction whenever I watch an action movie (which isn't often). "Who exactly is going to pay for the cleanup? Is this a federal responsibility, or is it state? Insurance? Do action heroes need action hero insurance for all the stuff they destroy in the course of Saving The World?"
posted by clawsoon at 12:03 PM on August 13, 2018 [10 favorites]
I watched One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest a few years ago after decades of hearing about it was one of the great films our our time and was pretty weirded out when you find out that McMurphy is there for raping a 15 year old and that he isn't exactly contrite about that fact.
posted by octothorpe at 12:04 PM on August 13, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 12:04 PM on August 13, 2018 [7 favorites]
I have that reaction whenever I watch an action movie (which isn't often). "Who exactly is going to pay for the cleanup? Is this a federal responsibility, or is it state? Insurance? Do action heroes need action hero insurance for all the stuff they destroy in the course of Saving The World?"
I think about 60% of Cracked.com's articles address this very thing.
posted by Melismata at 12:05 PM on August 13, 2018 [10 favorites]
I think about 60% of Cracked.com's articles address this very thing.
posted by Melismata at 12:05 PM on August 13, 2018 [10 favorites]
I've never been a big fan of romcoms, but I went through a while when I saw a lot of movies for the air conditioning, and I tried a few if I'd liked the lead actress in other types of film. I kept walking out thinking that it was a shame the lead settled and would have been better off staying single or even just holding out for a better match. (I know, relationships in fiction are artificially accelerated, but still.) Romantic male leads are given such a low bar that finding a man who is not actively kicking puppies is a winner, yay true love.
A lot of the fantasy fiction I read as a kid and teen is utterly unreadable for me now. I loved the Belgariad as a kid, but now I can't go through without being slapped in the face with the misogyny (women are alternately shrews and seductresses whose job is to drag man-babies through actually changing their clothes sometimes because girls are such buzzkills amirite?) Don't even get me started on Piers Anthony...
posted by Karmakaze at 12:07 PM on August 13, 2018 [14 favorites]
A lot of the fantasy fiction I read as a kid and teen is utterly unreadable for me now. I loved the Belgariad as a kid, but now I can't go through without being slapped in the face with the misogyny (women are alternately shrews and seductresses whose job is to drag man-babies through actually changing their clothes sometimes because girls are such buzzkills amirite?) Don't even get me started on Piers Anthony...
posted by Karmakaze at 12:07 PM on August 13, 2018 [14 favorites]
It's only something I've started to really think about in the last 10 years but I mostly worry about all the damage/destruction that our hero inflicts in these towns.
And I'm not talking about just physical violence with the battling of demons/monsters. Think about the economy and how messed up it becomes when some hero just hops into your shop and spends thousands upon thousands of gold coins.
You are not the only one. Ernest Adams somewhat famously complained about games in which the player ends up being an itinerant second-hand arms dealer, and while it's not exactly the same thing, the term "murder hobo" has shades of that as well, which has led some people to imagine RPG townsfolk in a somewhat different light: "Murderhobos left to their own devices are bad news for the region they occupy, so they are often dealt with by giving them quests that take them to dangerous places in distant locations, where they can kill some other monsters (or at least some foreigners)."
posted by mstokes650 at 12:12 PM on August 13, 2018 [14 favorites]
And I'm not talking about just physical violence with the battling of demons/monsters. Think about the economy and how messed up it becomes when some hero just hops into your shop and spends thousands upon thousands of gold coins.
You are not the only one. Ernest Adams somewhat famously complained about games in which the player ends up being an itinerant second-hand arms dealer, and while it's not exactly the same thing, the term "murder hobo" has shades of that as well, which has led some people to imagine RPG townsfolk in a somewhat different light: "Murderhobos left to their own devices are bad news for the region they occupy, so they are often dealt with by giving them quests that take them to dangerous places in distant locations, where they can kill some other monsters (or at least some foreigners)."
posted by mstokes650 at 12:12 PM on August 13, 2018 [14 favorites]
I loved It Happened One Night, and Clark Gable in particular, when I was a kid. It's obvious as an adult what a shitty, childish, bitter, mansplainy, lady-negging jackass his character is. He's supposed to be a scoundrel, but a *lovable* scoundrel. But alas, no, he's just an asshole.
The driver who won't stop singing about whatever thought pops into his head, though? Still #lifegoals all the way.
posted by duffell at 12:13 PM on August 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
The driver who won't stop singing about whatever thought pops into his head, though? Still #lifegoals all the way.
posted by duffell at 12:13 PM on August 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
I loved the Belgariad as a kid
It didn’t sink in for me until I re-read the first book a few years ago that one of the characters had spent the night kicking in his wife’s chamber door and drunkenly raping her. But fortunately it results in a male child which heals their marriage!
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:23 PM on August 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
It didn’t sink in for me until I re-read the first book a few years ago that one of the characters had spent the night kicking in his wife’s chamber door and drunkenly raping her. But fortunately it results in a male child which heals their marriage!
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:23 PM on August 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
These kinds of questions or feelings about identifying with characters or holding them as inspirational are weird to me. I don't know if I've ever really looked at a character like that exactly. I've always been more of the line that a "good" character is one that serves the larger whole effectively. Flaws make them more interesting and give the stories more depth and nuance, which in turn tends to make the stories themselves more resonant in the varying ways it can be approached.
"Bad" characters, for me, are those that are either too narrowly defined, that lack nuance or the "reality" of difficult choices and lives, or ones that serve the story poorly by being some heavy handed symbol of meaning, good or ill, and distort whatever possibilities the story might otherwise have into something simplistic.
In that sense, I "like" Henry Higgins for being a transparently pompous, but exceedingly accomplished ass. He makes the story better by being so as it makes the relationship with the other characters better rounded, giving them their own matching sets of expertise, in a sense.
I "like" Xander Harris", and most of the rest of the characters in Buffy for being so well realized in their failures and how that helps build the larger sets of concerns the show deals with as it developed over its run, for the most part. I could sometimes relate to Xander, but I didn't see him as an aspirational character or want to be like him.
That isn't to say my feelings about any of the characters from works I like remain constant, more that the success of the works and characters is better measured by being able to see them differently on any revisits to the work, which itself is a sign they are well realized even if returning to the work gives me an entirely different sense of its ultimate outcome. Expecting characters or works to perfectly fit the values of "now" simply doesn't make sense to me at all, in no small part because "now" is a constantly moving target, where today's ideals and likes will be every bit as likely to be shown wanting tomorrow.
For me, trying to see the context of the work is important, but even without that the balance of the characters against each other and their situations is what gives the works that I most admire their value and meaning. I don't admire the characters in Wuthering Heights or Die Hard, but their relationships to each other and the situations are fascinating none the less, and that makes me "like" them in how they are used, not in any sense of wanting to meet them much less be them.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:32 PM on August 13, 2018 [8 favorites]
"Bad" characters, for me, are those that are either too narrowly defined, that lack nuance or the "reality" of difficult choices and lives, or ones that serve the story poorly by being some heavy handed symbol of meaning, good or ill, and distort whatever possibilities the story might otherwise have into something simplistic.
In that sense, I "like" Henry Higgins for being a transparently pompous, but exceedingly accomplished ass. He makes the story better by being so as it makes the relationship with the other characters better rounded, giving them their own matching sets of expertise, in a sense.
I "like" Xander Harris", and most of the rest of the characters in Buffy for being so well realized in their failures and how that helps build the larger sets of concerns the show deals with as it developed over its run, for the most part. I could sometimes relate to Xander, but I didn't see him as an aspirational character or want to be like him.
That isn't to say my feelings about any of the characters from works I like remain constant, more that the success of the works and characters is better measured by being able to see them differently on any revisits to the work, which itself is a sign they are well realized even if returning to the work gives me an entirely different sense of its ultimate outcome. Expecting characters or works to perfectly fit the values of "now" simply doesn't make sense to me at all, in no small part because "now" is a constantly moving target, where today's ideals and likes will be every bit as likely to be shown wanting tomorrow.
For me, trying to see the context of the work is important, but even without that the balance of the characters against each other and their situations is what gives the works that I most admire their value and meaning. I don't admire the characters in Wuthering Heights or Die Hard, but their relationships to each other and the situations are fascinating none the less, and that makes me "like" them in how they are used, not in any sense of wanting to meet them much less be them.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:32 PM on August 13, 2018 [8 favorites]
praemunire, albums about horrible, codependent relationships are like movies about the horrors of war (or horror movies in general for that matter): they can't help but be sexy, in their way
Yep, but there's sexy, and then there's admirable. If you want to be the Alpha guy instead of just enjoying listening to the tales of his travails, you should probably warn people on the very first date. Often that line can be blurred--see much of the discussion above--but the Mountain Goats are usually so open about the disaster aspect of the narrative that it rarely is in their songs.
I mean, I love "A Song for Dennis Brown," in which the protagonist is openly in awe of the amount of cocaine the subject had to take to kill himself and expecting to follow his example, but I don't...actually wish to take all the coke in town? The subject isn't aspirational by the song's terms, even when the narrator thinks it is. Which is pretty good for a song about 2 minutes long, really!
posted by praemunire at 12:40 PM on August 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
Yep, but there's sexy, and then there's admirable. If you want to be the Alpha guy instead of just enjoying listening to the tales of his travails, you should probably warn people on the very first date. Often that line can be blurred--see much of the discussion above--but the Mountain Goats are usually so open about the disaster aspect of the narrative that it rarely is in their songs.
I mean, I love "A Song for Dennis Brown," in which the protagonist is openly in awe of the amount of cocaine the subject had to take to kill himself and expecting to follow his example, but I don't...actually wish to take all the coke in town? The subject isn't aspirational by the song's terms, even when the narrator thinks it is. Which is pretty good for a song about 2 minutes long, really!
posted by praemunire at 12:40 PM on August 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
Bill Murray in the guy version of Ghostbusters seemed a lot less funny and a lot more creepy the last time I watched it.
In literature, Wizard Howl in Diana Wynne Jones' "Howl's Moving Castle" seems a lot less sympathetic to me the last time I read him. In all fairness, I don't think DWJ was particularly sympathetic to him.
I never went back and read Sluggy Freelance, because I'm pretty sure I'd despise all the characters.
Also, isn't this the character version of "Touched by the Suck Fairy" ?
posted by happyroach at 12:48 PM on August 13, 2018 [17 favorites]
In literature, Wizard Howl in Diana Wynne Jones' "Howl's Moving Castle" seems a lot less sympathetic to me the last time I read him. In all fairness, I don't think DWJ was particularly sympathetic to him.
I never went back and read Sluggy Freelance, because I'm pretty sure I'd despise all the characters.
Also, isn't this the character version of "Touched by the Suck Fairy" ?
posted by happyroach at 12:48 PM on August 13, 2018 [17 favorites]
The older I get, the more Anya becomes the most sympathetic character on Buffy.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:55 PM on August 13, 2018 [26 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:55 PM on August 13, 2018 [26 favorites]
oh hell...watch bill Murray in stripes if you want to see him 'play' with the line between flirting and threatening. I can give most of this the 'different times' pass, but a lot of his roles are neither unproblematic or intentionally easily heroic. He's not Fletch or Axel Foley coasting by to the trophy on charm and lies. He's an amusing monster trying to get better. Still sometimes hard to rewatch
I think the "Lost in Translation" rebirth has a lot to do with it. I don't even like that move so much, but it started him on a deliberate, public course-correction that I think is important. Like the rewritten ending of "My fair lady."
posted by es_de_bah at 12:56 PM on August 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think the "Lost in Translation" rebirth has a lot to do with it. I don't even like that move so much, but it started him on a deliberate, public course-correction that I think is important. Like the rewritten ending of "My fair lady."
posted by es_de_bah at 12:56 PM on August 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
... which sort of continued in "Broken Flowers."
posted by Melismata at 1:00 PM on August 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Melismata at 1:00 PM on August 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
The frustrating thing about the Belgariad is that all of the female characters are given these superficial characteristics as if they’re different people, and then their lives entirely revolve around men and they’re obsessed with whether their child’s ears are wet after bathing.
It’s like the writers knew women were people, but couldn’t really commit.
Re: Howl, I hate how the movie version redeemed him. The thing I like about Howl and Sophie is that they’re both highly flawed people trying to do their best and loving each other because their flaws have become beloved. Removing Howl’s cowardice or Sophie’s single-mindedness makes them no longer themselves.
In general, there’s this weird thing where men who fanfic antagonists they identify with warp the stories and it often includes disregarding the women in the stories. This happens a lot with Erik from Phantom of the Opera. He’s a controlling, violent stalker who murders tons of people who gets turned into a sad woobie who just really loves Christine. I’d love to see a movie version that really took him on as horror, who kept that Christine expected to be dead, who kept the details about the Vicomte de Chagny being slated to go on a sea voyage he would almost certainly die on. The real dynamics of that trio are epic; the remakes are always so thin.
posted by Deoridhe at 1:03 PM on August 13, 2018 [11 favorites]
It’s like the writers knew women were people, but couldn’t really commit.
Re: Howl, I hate how the movie version redeemed him. The thing I like about Howl and Sophie is that they’re both highly flawed people trying to do their best and loving each other because their flaws have become beloved. Removing Howl’s cowardice or Sophie’s single-mindedness makes them no longer themselves.
In general, there’s this weird thing where men who fanfic antagonists they identify with warp the stories and it often includes disregarding the women in the stories. This happens a lot with Erik from Phantom of the Opera. He’s a controlling, violent stalker who murders tons of people who gets turned into a sad woobie who just really loves Christine. I’d love to see a movie version that really took him on as horror, who kept that Christine expected to be dead, who kept the details about the Vicomte de Chagny being slated to go on a sea voyage he would almost certainly die on. The real dynamics of that trio are epic; the remakes are always so thin.
posted by Deoridhe at 1:03 PM on August 13, 2018 [11 favorites]
re: bill murray's broken flowers: Again...not a great movie. Nor is rock the casba. But, you know....deliberate work....ahem...course correction, to say nothing of his constantly self-demonizing parts in Wes Anderson movies.
Even better from a powerful actor: if you've gotten to play god/hero a few times on screen (especially in vehicles you either had input on and/or controlled thru tantrums) then spending your late life offering rebuttals against your younger self is actually kinda neat. See also: David Bowie, David Letterman, John Goodman)
posted by es_de_bah at 1:03 PM on August 13, 2018
Even better from a powerful actor: if you've gotten to play god/hero a few times on screen (especially in vehicles you either had input on and/or controlled thru tantrums) then spending your late life offering rebuttals against your younger self is actually kinda neat. See also: David Bowie, David Letterman, John Goodman)
posted by es_de_bah at 1:03 PM on August 13, 2018
mstokes650: "Murderhobos left to their own devices are bad news for the region they occupy, so they are often dealt with by giving them quests that take them to dangerous places in distant locations, where they can kill some other monsters (or at least some foreigners)."
I'm pretty sure that's exactly what was going on with the Crusades. "Our society is dominated by murderous thugs calling themselves 'knights'. What should we do?" "Hmm... I think I might have an idea..."
posted by clawsoon at 1:29 PM on August 13, 2018 [5 favorites]
I'm pretty sure that's exactly what was going on with the Crusades. "Our society is dominated by murderous thugs calling themselves 'knights'. What should we do?" "Hmm... I think I might have an idea..."
posted by clawsoon at 1:29 PM on August 13, 2018 [5 favorites]
The one where they just go "Eh, fuck it, let's sack Byzantium I guess?" is a solid argument in favour of that explanation.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:34 PM on August 13, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 1:34 PM on August 13, 2018 [9 favorites]
I suppose that most of us have to recognize that we admire or are attracted to selfish characters in part because they speak to the selfish parts of us that we haven't yet recognized as such.
posted by clawsoon at 1:35 PM on August 13, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 1:35 PM on August 13, 2018 [9 favorites]
Thomas Covenant. Those books got me through adolescence. I know I ignored the pivotal moment in the first book, or at least didn't really understand it for what it was. I am not willing to revisit them now, knowing and understanding things as I do.
The strange thing (well, not strange) is that I was so excited about The Gap services because Science Fiction, but gave up on the first book partway through, since it was essentially an extended rape scene. Why that struck me but TC didn't, I don't know. Probably the difference between who I was in high school and graduate school.
posted by Gorgik at 1:35 PM on August 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
The strange thing (well, not strange) is that I was so excited about The Gap services because Science Fiction, but gave up on the first book partway through, since it was essentially an extended rape scene. Why that struck me but TC didn't, I don't know. Probably the difference between who I was in high school and graduate school.
posted by Gorgik at 1:35 PM on August 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
I have never, ever understood some peoples' believing that there was any kind of romantic attraction between Eliza and Higgins in the musical, and especially the film version. I just do not see anything at all to indicate or even hint at it. I never even knew there were people who thought it existed until maybe ten years ago.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:48 PM on August 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:48 PM on August 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
(Would thoroughly recommend the Xplain the X-Men podcast, origin of the T-Shirt, for further explorations into why Professor X is just all round terrible most of the time.)
Seconded!
With characters in any property shared by many writers--comics, tv, etc--there's also a huge question of which writer's portrayal is definitive, and which is just a bad run of writing that should be ignored. Naturally, this will be different for everyone. But for something huge like X-Men where there have been many ups and downs and writers who've taken bizarre and even enraging left turns, it makes this sort of discussion extra complicated. I totally reject every moment of the Civil War comics as flat-out awful writing that should be forgotten, but the company sure still seems inclined to hold it up as a great moment. Conversely, I think right now it's pretty clear that any bad moves Ms. Marvel makes would only really stick to the character if G. Willow Wilson wrote it herself. (Wilson has also been very loud and clear that comics are a shared effort and that she won't be the one writing Ms. Marvel forever and that's okay.)
I've seen a lot of this sort of thing in Doctor Who fandom where people love the Doctor but decidedly don't love certain writers. It also makes me wonder about the Xander comment above regarding Buffy. Being only a casual viewer, I don't know if Whedon did most of the writing or if it was often a shared project. Knowing what we know now about Whedon's behavior during the show, it may put Xander's dialogue in a new light.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:50 PM on August 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
Seconded!
With characters in any property shared by many writers--comics, tv, etc--there's also a huge question of which writer's portrayal is definitive, and which is just a bad run of writing that should be ignored. Naturally, this will be different for everyone. But for something huge like X-Men where there have been many ups and downs and writers who've taken bizarre and even enraging left turns, it makes this sort of discussion extra complicated. I totally reject every moment of the Civil War comics as flat-out awful writing that should be forgotten, but the company sure still seems inclined to hold it up as a great moment. Conversely, I think right now it's pretty clear that any bad moves Ms. Marvel makes would only really stick to the character if G. Willow Wilson wrote it herself. (Wilson has also been very loud and clear that comics are a shared effort and that she won't be the one writing Ms. Marvel forever and that's okay.)
I've seen a lot of this sort of thing in Doctor Who fandom where people love the Doctor but decidedly don't love certain writers. It also makes me wonder about the Xander comment above regarding Buffy. Being only a casual viewer, I don't know if Whedon did most of the writing or if it was often a shared project. Knowing what we know now about Whedon's behavior during the show, it may put Xander's dialogue in a new light.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:50 PM on August 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
...The Gap ... because Science Fiction...
Eww - I had not read those, apparently Donaldson seems to have a "go-to" major plot mechanism when dealing with female characters.
The first time I read Thomas Covenant, I would have been about 11 or 12 - at that time, I didn't understand what happened well - I read things fast and without alot of context. When I re-read it later in life, yes, I did finally finish the whole series - but it was a slog, not something I enjoyed and the attempt at a redemption story arc just never "sat" well with me.
posted by jkaczor at 2:01 PM on August 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
Eww - I had not read those, apparently Donaldson seems to have a "go-to" major plot mechanism when dealing with female characters.
The first time I read Thomas Covenant, I would have been about 11 or 12 - at that time, I didn't understand what happened well - I read things fast and without alot of context. When I re-read it later in life, yes, I did finally finish the whole series - but it was a slog, not something I enjoyed and the attempt at a redemption story arc just never "sat" well with me.
posted by jkaczor at 2:01 PM on August 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
With each reread of Michael Moorcock's Elric of Melnibone books over the years, the more I come to appreciate his companion/sidekick Moonglum. He's the Sword and Sorcery version of Sancho Panza.
posted by KingEdRa at 2:26 PM on August 13, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by KingEdRa at 2:26 PM on August 13, 2018 [5 favorites]
Elric can never disappoint you because it's always been clear that he's a total dick.
posted by Artw at 2:28 PM on August 13, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by Artw at 2:28 PM on August 13, 2018 [11 favorites]
Yeah. Seems like if you walk the dick line just right it becomes appealing. (shrug)
posted by aleph at 2:53 PM on August 13, 2018
posted by aleph at 2:53 PM on August 13, 2018
I used to love irreverent, saucy characters and now I mostly regard them as assholes who aren't getting enough discipline. See: most teenage superheroes at Marvel.
The kids are doing it wrong!
But I can't really think of anyone I thought was amazing and *good* who I later realized was in fact not good. Maybe Tigger.
posted by taterpie at 3:13 PM on August 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
The kids are doing it wrong!
But I can't really think of anyone I thought was amazing and *good* who I later realized was in fact not good. Maybe Tigger.
posted by taterpie at 3:13 PM on August 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
Seems like if you walk the dick line just right it becomes appealing.
That's Cuzco in The Emperor's New Groove. He's a completely self-involved jerk, and yet there's something weirdly charming about him. He's just so sincere in his selfishness. BOOM, baby!
posted by SPrintF at 3:49 PM on August 13, 2018 [8 favorites]
That's Cuzco in The Emperor's New Groove. He's a completely self-involved jerk, and yet there's something weirdly charming about him. He's just so sincere in his selfishness. BOOM, baby!
posted by SPrintF at 3:49 PM on August 13, 2018 [8 favorites]
I read the Elric stories for almost the first time recently (a cursory adolescent reading didn't make much impression) and I was struck by how incredibly emo he was. Dude should have been wearing eyeshadow and a The Cure T-shirt. I guess the 80s hadn't happened yet and that was still kind of a novel vibe?
I'll always be a Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser man, and they've held up very well as likable characters, on the whole.
posted by edheil at 3:52 PM on August 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
I'll always be a Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser man, and they've held up very well as likable characters, on the whole.
posted by edheil at 3:52 PM on August 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
The crushing weight of the eyeshadow would probably be too much for his fragile, birdlike bones to bear without resorting to “herbs” and a bit of a sit down.
posted by Artw at 3:57 PM on August 13, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by Artw at 3:57 PM on August 13, 2018 [9 favorites]
The male romantic interest in Rebecca is just a plain-up murderer. WTF.
posted by bq at 4:07 PM on August 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by bq at 4:07 PM on August 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
but she was a bad person, you see, so
really, who wouldn’t want to be sparkling and joyful when they were married to the charming, gentle and not at all insufferable Maxim de Winter
posted by Countess Elena at 4:10 PM on August 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
really, who wouldn’t want to be sparkling and joyful when they were married to the charming, gentle and not at all insufferable Maxim de Winter
posted by Countess Elena at 4:10 PM on August 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
I guess the 80s hadn't happened yet and that was still kind of a novel vibe?
Yeah, Elric predates the Cure by 4 years, for example :) And the goth subculture as a whole by about a decade.
That said, he definitely influenced my embrace of goth as a teen/young adult (I was reading those books in the late 80's / early 90's).
posted by thefoxgod at 4:24 PM on August 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
Yeah, Elric predates the Cure by 4 years, for example :) And the goth subculture as a whole by about a decade.
That said, he definitely influenced my embrace of goth as a teen/young adult (I was reading those books in the late 80's / early 90's).
posted by thefoxgod at 4:24 PM on August 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
Brazil is one for me. I remember watching it when it came out and thinking that Sam was the hero who rebelled against the system but I watched it more recently and realized that he's a creepy stalker who probably accidentally caused Jill's death.
posted by octothorpe at 4:47 PM on August 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 4:47 PM on August 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
I've never been able to watch One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest and not see McMurphy as one of the bad guys. Maybe not the worst guy in the story, but he was deliberately contributing to the overcrowding problem that made the hospital dysfunctional in the first place.
And don't get me started on Mr. Rochester.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:21 PM on August 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
And don't get me started on Mr. Rochester.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:21 PM on August 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
And don't get me started on Mr. Rochester.
Do tell. I feel like Rochester stole 10 years of my adult life from me, all that pining for a brooding man.
posted by ikahime at 5:41 PM on August 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
Do tell. I feel like Rochester stole 10 years of my adult life from me, all that pining for a brooding man.
posted by ikahime at 5:41 PM on August 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
OH JOHN RINGO NO
posted by tzikeh at 5:59 PM on August 13, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by tzikeh at 5:59 PM on August 13, 2018 [7 favorites]
I read The Gap first and felt that the book was pretty clearly acknowledging that the rapist character was a bad person, but the effect is spoiled a little by having later read the first 70 pages of Thomas Covenant, realised that it was doing the same thing except this book was going to be a lot more coy about its opinions re: raping female characters, and tossed it.
The "hypercompetent, prickly genius dude" archetype has, no joke, fucked me up. I can't even recall the last time I saw someone on screen who I identified with (and I'm a white dude!) - either they're an asshole, or they're weird for getting excited about gibberish.
posted by Merus at 6:21 PM on August 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
The "hypercompetent, prickly genius dude" archetype has, no joke, fucked me up. I can't even recall the last time I saw someone on screen who I identified with (and I'm a white dude!) - either they're an asshole, or they're weird for getting excited about gibberish.
posted by Merus at 6:21 PM on August 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
When I was 14 "Catch-22" was my favorite book. I then began to read "adult" books by Heller, Updike and Bellow. How I survived that bath of misogyny I'll never know, but I eventually recognized that there were authors who, for all their talent, lacked empathy for people like me. Are there men who read "The Color Purple" and feel the same? Were you as disappointed as I was that an author couldn't see you? There are authors I cherish simply for their compassion toward all people: reading Robert Lewis Stevenson always cheers me up because he is never mean.
posted by acrasis at 6:36 PM on August 13, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by acrasis at 6:36 PM on August 13, 2018 [9 favorites]
Last year a fellow teacher tried to convince me (and was even teaching her GED class) that Cool Hand Luke was a loser but I wasn't buying it.
Older me may be changing my mind a little however
posted by Rash at 6:44 PM on August 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
Older me may be changing my mind a little however
posted by Rash at 6:44 PM on August 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
Would a loser eat THIS MANY HARD BOILED EGGS? *begins furiously mashing eggs into mouth*
posted by duffell at 7:22 PM on August 13, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by duffell at 7:22 PM on August 13, 2018 [9 favorites]
Nah, I still love C.H. Luke. Have you seen how many eggs that boy can eat?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:22 PM on August 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:22 PM on August 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
The Beloved Characters We Have to Leave Behind
When I saw this and peripherally noted professor of language and phonetics, I was really hoping this would be about the medial s (as in “ſucceſsful”) and the eth (as in “eð”). This is still okay I guess.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:32 PM on August 13, 2018 [12 favorites]
When I saw this and peripherally noted professor of language and phonetics, I was really hoping this would be about the medial s (as in “ſucceſsful”) and the eth (as in “eð”). This is still okay I guess.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:32 PM on August 13, 2018 [12 favorites]
I enjoyed House so much when it first aired. Dr. House is incredibly smart! Witty! Tells it like it is! Rascally and rebellious, but he cares! He saves people!
My empathy pendulum must've swung wayyy over since then, because now I can't watch it, even knowing that he's meant to be a jerk antihero. He's just so abusive and demeaning. He poisons the physician-patient relationship and he creates a toxic work environment for his colleagues. I can't even watch it for fun. It makes me so uncomfortable.
posted by cadge at 9:17 PM on August 13, 2018 [10 favorites]
My empathy pendulum must've swung wayyy over since then, because now I can't watch it, even knowing that he's meant to be a jerk antihero. He's just so abusive and demeaning. He poisons the physician-patient relationship and he creates a toxic work environment for his colleagues. I can't even watch it for fun. It makes me so uncomfortable.
posted by cadge at 9:17 PM on August 13, 2018 [10 favorites]
A case where the opposite has happened for me: every time I see Election I find myself rooting more and more for Tracy Flick. I think at this point I'd even call her the straight-up hero of the movie. It amazes me that people see her as the villain.
...Not that I ever sympathized with Matthew Broderick, of course, I guess my original take (I was in high school when it came out) was that they were both asshole schemers, that this was a flavor of "everyone is horrible" dark comedy. But getting older, getting more of an appreciation for just how shockingly terrible Broderick is... man.
posted by equalpants at 10:29 PM on August 13, 2018 [12 favorites]
...Not that I ever sympathized with Matthew Broderick, of course, I guess my original take (I was in high school when it came out) was that they were both asshole schemers, that this was a flavor of "everyone is horrible" dark comedy. But getting older, getting more of an appreciation for just how shockingly terrible Broderick is... man.
posted by equalpants at 10:29 PM on August 13, 2018 [12 favorites]
My first real exposure to the process of how scientific research was through reading The Double Helix at age... 13? At the time, I found it captivating, and oddly reminiscent of the things I liked best about mystery stories. (I too have been a sucker for the Hypercompetent Genius trope, and also I was a pretty naive kid who didn't really grasp the concept of unreliable narrators for another few years.) Fast forward two decades and I actually work in biochem/genetics and keep a small postcard of this illustration of Franklin, Crick and Watson at work (/"work") above my desk next to an elegantly lettered print that reads "Do no harm, but take no shit."
posted by deludingmyself at 11:11 PM on August 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by deludingmyself at 11:11 PM on August 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
As I age, I see clearly that Special Agent Dale Cooper was always a secret jerk who obsessively planned how to be good more than he actually was good. Last year’s Mr. C was just regular Cooper not caring about his public persona or professional reputation any longer.
posted by infinitewindow at 2:49 AM on August 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by infinitewindow at 2:49 AM on August 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
Re: Heinlein's characters - you want to tell me Jubal Harshaw or Prof. de la Paz is just a Mary Sue... fine. But Lazarus is different. Why, heck, Lazarus might even be (looks left, looks right) Bob's friend L. R0n. (I apologize for the now-empty img links. It's been a while.)
posted by aurelian at 2:50 AM on August 14, 2018
posted by aurelian at 2:50 AM on August 14, 2018
I never went back and read Sluggy Freelance, because I'm pretty sure I'd despise all the characters.
This one happened to me in real time: I went from a "Fear the Bunny" t-shirt wearing fan boy to "good christ, this is just terrible, every word of it, and these people are baaaaaaad" in the space of about 3 years.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 5:35 AM on August 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
This one happened to me in real time: I went from a "Fear the Bunny" t-shirt wearing fan boy to "good christ, this is just terrible, every word of it, and these people are baaaaaaad" in the space of about 3 years.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 5:35 AM on August 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
The speaker/narrator in the song "Sylvia's Mother" by Dr. Hook and the Medicine Show. The song was written by Shel Silverstein and was based on his real-life experience of a woman he once dated moving on and marrying someone else.
I'm ashamed to admit I once found this song... romantic? It's creepy as fuck. Creepy, stalkerish, pathetic, and downright scary. Leave the poor woman alone.
posted by duffell at 6:18 AM on August 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm ashamed to admit I once found this song... romantic? It's creepy as fuck. Creepy, stalkerish, pathetic, and downright scary. Leave the poor woman alone.
posted by duffell at 6:18 AM on August 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
There‘s nothing like having to explain the plot of Phantom of the Opera to a 6 year old girl to realize what an incredibly fucked up dynamic it‘s promoting.
I blame narratives like this for making young me swoon for fucked up, withholding, emotionally warped jerks and believe that saving a broken man from his brokenness means romance.
posted by Omnomnom at 6:54 AM on August 14, 2018 [10 favorites]
I blame narratives like this for making young me swoon for fucked up, withholding, emotionally warped jerks and believe that saving a broken man from his brokenness means romance.
posted by Omnomnom at 6:54 AM on August 14, 2018 [10 favorites]
I used to really love "It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia" but it's gotten harder and harder to watch as I've gotten older.
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 7:15 AM on August 14, 2018
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 7:15 AM on August 14, 2018
My reading comprehension isn't great, so I might have got this thread completely wrong.
First of all, it was only last year or so that I realised the title of My Fair Lady is a pun.
The only time I've had this phenomenon with characters letting you down was the last episode of Hannibal. Its pell-mell descent into "Murder Husbands Forever" betrayed the Red Dragon characters completely - something not even the Brett Ratner movie managed - and left the female characters basically waiting to be punished cruelly, but rightfully because the dared to get in the way of the Murder Husbands! Ending with Bedelia woefully surveying her own roasted leg.
Now, the cruelty I can deal with - after all, I found the whole series thrillingly sociopathic; The misogyny I could deal with (I'm contemplating a re-read of Cerebus, or at least the two thirds that are more or less readable - actually, that's definitely something that betrayed its readers - because Lord Julius is the closest thing to Trumpism I've seen in fiction and I'm curious); What made the Hannibal ending horrifying was the sentimentality, the genuflection to Fandom.
Fuller might turn it around some day, but he doesn't really have a track record for finishing things, does he?
posted by Grangousier at 7:33 AM on August 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
First of all, it was only last year or so that I realised the title of My Fair Lady is a pun.
The only time I've had this phenomenon with characters letting you down was the last episode of Hannibal. Its pell-mell descent into "Murder Husbands Forever" betrayed the Red Dragon characters completely - something not even the Brett Ratner movie managed - and left the female characters basically waiting to be punished cruelly, but rightfully because the dared to get in the way of the Murder Husbands! Ending with Bedelia woefully surveying her own roasted leg.
Now, the cruelty I can deal with - after all, I found the whole series thrillingly sociopathic; The misogyny I could deal with (I'm contemplating a re-read of Cerebus, or at least the two thirds that are more or less readable - actually, that's definitely something that betrayed its readers - because Lord Julius is the closest thing to Trumpism I've seen in fiction and I'm curious); What made the Hannibal ending horrifying was the sentimentality, the genuflection to Fandom.
Fuller might turn it around some day, but he doesn't really have a track record for finishing things, does he?
posted by Grangousier at 7:33 AM on August 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
I recently started re-reading Lord Foul's Bane - the first Thomas Covenant book, but I couldn't stay with it because I knew what was coming. I understood how problematic he was from the beginning, but I just couldn't put myself through it again.
posted by Billiken at 8:06 AM on August 14, 2018
posted by Billiken at 8:06 AM on August 14, 2018
Firefly! Aside from the associations outside it (Whedon, Baldwin), on my last rewatch (which will in fact be my final rewatch) I just hated Mal SO MUCH right from the first episode.
posted by skycrashesdown at 9:39 AM on August 14, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by skycrashesdown at 9:39 AM on August 14, 2018 [5 favorites]
I saw My Fair Lady for the first time last year, in a local stage production. Seeing it as a grown adult in the 2017, my take away was, "really? This tale of selfish idiots and assholes is where all those great songs come from? Perhaps it would have been different if I'd seen it as a kid. The Colonel stood out as less actively awful than anyone else; however, I'm still not eager to hang out with the guy, just based on his friends. Building a work that lasts more than half a century with no sympathetic characters is no small feat, and I'm not surprised people enjoy watching it, but I'm astonished one could admire anyone in the story.
I'm not sure I ever really had aspirational media heroes, at least since I stopped watching Thunder Cats on Saturday mornings. I suppose there's Geordi La Forge. Despite adult re-watches that show he's a creeper when interacting with women, junior-high me can't help but want to be the guy.
Jean Valjean might count, but even on the first reading in high school I found his rigidity and rigid adherence to custom frustrating. The only truly sympathetic characters in that book (aside, perhaps, from the horses at Waterloo) are Éponine and Gavroche, and nobody wants to be them.
Ford Prefect isn't a bad choice. He's a little meaner and a lot more extroverted than I like to think I am, but otherwise not a bad model. But, like all literary characters, I think of him as someone I'd be interested in knowing rather than someone I'd be interested in being. I probably am Dent. I'd rather be Ford. But, I'd rather be someone else hanging out with the both of them.
posted by eotvos at 10:08 AM on August 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'm not sure I ever really had aspirational media heroes, at least since I stopped watching Thunder Cats on Saturday mornings. I suppose there's Geordi La Forge. Despite adult re-watches that show he's a creeper when interacting with women, junior-high me can't help but want to be the guy.
Jean Valjean might count, but even on the first reading in high school I found his rigidity and rigid adherence to custom frustrating. The only truly sympathetic characters in that book (aside, perhaps, from the horses at Waterloo) are Éponine and Gavroche, and nobody wants to be them.
Ford Prefect isn't a bad choice. He's a little meaner and a lot more extroverted than I like to think I am, but otherwise not a bad model. But, like all literary characters, I think of him as someone I'd be interested in knowing rather than someone I'd be interested in being. I probably am Dent. I'd rather be Ford. But, I'd rather be someone else hanging out with the both of them.
posted by eotvos at 10:08 AM on August 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yeah I never entirely understand the love for My Fair Lady. Yeah the songs are classics but the characters? The worst. I had a similar reaction to the Powell Pressburger film Life and Death of Colonel Blimp. Am I supposed to like Blimp? I found him insufferable in the extreme.
posted by Ashwagandha at 5:12 PM on August 14, 2018
posted by Ashwagandha at 5:12 PM on August 14, 2018
Metafilter has "ruined" so much pop culture for me. Like I used to really enjoy rom-coms and now most are unwatchable because of the realization that the male lead is a creepy stalker who should be arrested somewhere about minute 15.
And I still read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress a couple times a year but now I have to skip over several parts that just squick me right out.
Countess Elena: "I liked Inigo. He was never mean to her. (Except for the kidnapping, of course, but as I said, bad ideas about boys."
You can tell Inigo at least feels he had no choice but to turn to crime to support himself; and that he is not really cut out for the job.
skycrashesdown: "Firefly! Aside from the associations outside it (Whedon, Baldwin), on my last rewatch (which will in fact be my final rewatch) I just hated Mal SO MUCH right from the first episode."
I've fantasized a few times about a Firefly reboot featuring Kayley as the protagonist and not only because I'm a sucker for the "engineer" in any story. So many of the other characters are so obviously deep in the hole of PTSD. And Mal especially is so obviously not at all principled and willing to do anything if it keeps him "free". I mean by the end is any sure Mal wouldn't traffic in humans if he got desperate enough? If they were the children of Alliance rulers?
posted by Mitheral at 10:45 PM on August 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
And I still read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress a couple times a year but now I have to skip over several parts that just squick me right out.
Countess Elena: "I liked Inigo. He was never mean to her. (Except for the kidnapping, of course, but as I said, bad ideas about boys."
You can tell Inigo at least feels he had no choice but to turn to crime to support himself; and that he is not really cut out for the job.
skycrashesdown: "Firefly! Aside from the associations outside it (Whedon, Baldwin), on my last rewatch (which will in fact be my final rewatch) I just hated Mal SO MUCH right from the first episode."
I've fantasized a few times about a Firefly reboot featuring Kayley as the protagonist and not only because I'm a sucker for the "engineer" in any story. So many of the other characters are so obviously deep in the hole of PTSD. And Mal especially is so obviously not at all principled and willing to do anything if it keeps him "free". I mean by the end is any sure Mal wouldn't traffic in humans if he got desperate enough? If they were the children of Alliance rulers?
posted by Mitheral at 10:45 PM on August 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
I mean by the end is any sure Mal wouldn't traffic in humans if he got desperate enough? If they were the children of Alliance rulers?
It wouldn’t matter who the kids were. Mal would tell himself a story about how he was moving kids from someplace they weren’t wanted to somewhere they were wanted.
On the other hand virtually everyone I have ever met has gotten into creative justifications when things have gotten bad. I’m not sure judging people based on their behavior in extremes is really useful.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:59 PM on August 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
It wouldn’t matter who the kids were. Mal would tell himself a story about how he was moving kids from someplace they weren’t wanted to somewhere they were wanted.
On the other hand virtually everyone I have ever met has gotten into creative justifications when things have gotten bad. I’m not sure judging people based on their behavior in extremes is really useful.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:59 PM on August 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
I had a similar reaction to the Powell Pressburger film Life and Death of Colonel Blimp. Am I supposed to like Blimp? I found him insufferable in the extreme.
Are you supposed to like Blimp? That isn't quite the question I'd ask I guess. He's blustering and foolishly blind the many of the realities of warfare and life at the time of the film, believing instead in an antiquated romantic view of warfare and others. He's out of step with life and can be seen as representing views that are equally foolish and which were once commonly promoted in England and elsewhere. Blimp's belief in romanticism at the same time provides something of a core of decency to him, that allows him to build a friendship and trust with Theo Kretschmar-Schuldorff rather than seeing him as just an enemy for being German.
It's Kretschmar-Schuldorff who is more the heart of the film, or perhaps the mind of it is more apt. He sees all too clearly what is happening and condemns his country and even his own sons for allowing the Nazis to gain power. Matched against what he's seen happen in Germany is his attachment to Blimp and England for being able to believe in some values that go beyond the pragmatic truth. This speech is one of the defining moments of the film for balancing the meaning behind the ideals Blimp holds blindly to some better application in the reality of a world war that seeks to eradicate the meaning of those values entirely.
Blimp is both fool and visionary, obsolete himself yet needed as a base to build from for his sincere well meaning view of others. It's famously noted that Churchill wanted the film banned for how it viewed Blimp and by extension England and its soldiers at a time of war. Powell wanted to show the mix of ignorance and decency that helped place the world and England in the position it was in and through that maybe provide a view of what may be retained and what need be changed while not also being blind to the world as it is. It's a propaganda film in a way, but an unusual one for making Kretschmar-Schuldorff the spokesman of its perspective.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:38 AM on August 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
Are you supposed to like Blimp? That isn't quite the question I'd ask I guess. He's blustering and foolishly blind the many of the realities of warfare and life at the time of the film, believing instead in an antiquated romantic view of warfare and others. He's out of step with life and can be seen as representing views that are equally foolish and which were once commonly promoted in England and elsewhere. Blimp's belief in romanticism at the same time provides something of a core of decency to him, that allows him to build a friendship and trust with Theo Kretschmar-Schuldorff rather than seeing him as just an enemy for being German.
It's Kretschmar-Schuldorff who is more the heart of the film, or perhaps the mind of it is more apt. He sees all too clearly what is happening and condemns his country and even his own sons for allowing the Nazis to gain power. Matched against what he's seen happen in Germany is his attachment to Blimp and England for being able to believe in some values that go beyond the pragmatic truth. This speech is one of the defining moments of the film for balancing the meaning behind the ideals Blimp holds blindly to some better application in the reality of a world war that seeks to eradicate the meaning of those values entirely.
Blimp is both fool and visionary, obsolete himself yet needed as a base to build from for his sincere well meaning view of others. It's famously noted that Churchill wanted the film banned for how it viewed Blimp and by extension England and its soldiers at a time of war. Powell wanted to show the mix of ignorance and decency that helped place the world and England in the position it was in and through that maybe provide a view of what may be retained and what need be changed while not also being blind to the world as it is. It's a propaganda film in a way, but an unusual one for making Kretschmar-Schuldorff the spokesman of its perspective.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:38 AM on August 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
The only thing I'd add to that is that the character's name is Clive Candy - Col Blimp is a stereotype of a stuffed-shirt officer (popular in newspaper cartoons of the period) - the film is about how that mindset grows in him and how it needs to be broken to fight the Nazis. So the Col Blimp that lives and dies is a mindset, not the character himself.
posted by Grangousier at 3:17 AM on August 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Grangousier at 3:17 AM on August 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
So the Col Blimp that lives and dies is a mindset, not the character himself.
Ach, yes, you are absolutely right. It's been too many years since I last saw the movie, but I shouldn't have forgotten that!
To go back to the main issue though, I guess I'm still a bit confused by what people mean when they are talking about "liking" a character. Do they mean enjoy them when they are on screen or in the pages? Which is something that is often hoped for with even villainous characters in many movies, particularly mass audience works like Die Hard or Star Wars?
Or is it a sense of thinking the character is one to somehow be emulated or is some larger view guide to moral "rightness"? which would seem to demand simplified characters that have little inner complication. Many shows and books have characters the audience is asked to find some sympathy with, but not see as "right" in a comprehensive sense. That would be the case, for example, with most of the characters in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, with even Buffy herself at times acting in questionable ways, though mostly righting herself in the end. It certainly would be the case for the characters in most noted "literary works". For example, I always took it that one watches or reads Hamlet to try and grasp the situation, feelings, and ideals of the character in the events of the play, not to just sign on in agreement for anything Hamlet or any of the other characters do. I mean in some ways Hamlet can ultimately be seen as making completely wrong choices or right ones in the wrong manner among other possibilities.
posted by gusottertrout at 4:11 AM on August 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
Ach, yes, you are absolutely right. It's been too many years since I last saw the movie, but I shouldn't have forgotten that!
To go back to the main issue though, I guess I'm still a bit confused by what people mean when they are talking about "liking" a character. Do they mean enjoy them when they are on screen or in the pages? Which is something that is often hoped for with even villainous characters in many movies, particularly mass audience works like Die Hard or Star Wars?
Or is it a sense of thinking the character is one to somehow be emulated or is some larger view guide to moral "rightness"? which would seem to demand simplified characters that have little inner complication. Many shows and books have characters the audience is asked to find some sympathy with, but not see as "right" in a comprehensive sense. That would be the case, for example, with most of the characters in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, with even Buffy herself at times acting in questionable ways, though mostly righting herself in the end. It certainly would be the case for the characters in most noted "literary works". For example, I always took it that one watches or reads Hamlet to try and grasp the situation, feelings, and ideals of the character in the events of the play, not to just sign on in agreement for anything Hamlet or any of the other characters do. I mean in some ways Hamlet can ultimately be seen as making completely wrong choices or right ones in the wrong manner among other possibilities.
posted by gusottertrout at 4:11 AM on August 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I think Henry Higgins is a fine character, entertaining and awful and distinct. What's worth outgrowing is the idea of him as a desirable romantic lead.
The TV show Selfie is interesting as a modern retelling of My Fair Lady that leans into the romance and IMO makes it work. It keeps the same basic plot structure, but adjusts the balance of influence. Both characters start out pretty obnoxious, but over the course of the series they both learn to better understand and appreciate the other. In some ways it's a small shift, but it's critical to making the romance work. (Also Karen Gillan and John Cho are ridiculously charming in it. To this day I am baffled that the series didn't get more attention.)
posted by Kilter at 5:02 AM on August 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
The TV show Selfie is interesting as a modern retelling of My Fair Lady that leans into the romance and IMO makes it work. It keeps the same basic plot structure, but adjusts the balance of influence. Both characters start out pretty obnoxious, but over the course of the series they both learn to better understand and appreciate the other. In some ways it's a small shift, but it's critical to making the romance work. (Also Karen Gillan and John Cho are ridiculously charming in it. To this day I am baffled that the series didn't get more attention.)
posted by Kilter at 5:02 AM on August 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
Yes, there's certainly a distinction to be made between enjoying characters and liking them as you would a person.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:23 AM on August 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:23 AM on August 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
To go back to the main issue though, I guess I'm still a bit confused by what people mean when they are talking about "liking" a character.
I think that's it - like is being used ambiguously or at least differently by different people.
"Liking" in the article seems to be meaning that one identifies or perhaps develops a more personal relationship or attachment with a character. I think it is a response many people have to characters in film and TV. We want to have that fairy tale be ours, we want to be that hero or have that hero be our friend. Following that we also don't want the people we like to be immoral or at least immoral in a way that doesn't jive with our understanding of ourselves. Afterall fiction, particularly film, is an escapist medium.
But as gusottertrout says in the earlier comment above you can "like" a character in the context of the narrative without identifying personally with them. We can like the villain while not necessarily wanting to emulate them.
The reason I mentioned Blimp is that I think he reflects that dichotomy for me. To me, the movie seems to want to us to have a degree of affection for Blimp if not actually liking him. Pompous stuffed shirt but ultimately decent. I've definitely read that view of the character in critical works. However, I couldn't stand Blimp as either an abstraction or as a person because for me he comes off as destructive & ignorant rather than foolish or visionary or decent. I couldn't like him personally nor could I like his character in the context of the movie. Saying that, I recognise that my politics and culture colours my opinion here.
posted by Ashwagandha at 9:40 AM on August 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think that's it - like is being used ambiguously or at least differently by different people.
"Liking" in the article seems to be meaning that one identifies or perhaps develops a more personal relationship or attachment with a character. I think it is a response many people have to characters in film and TV. We want to have that fairy tale be ours, we want to be that hero or have that hero be our friend. Following that we also don't want the people we like to be immoral or at least immoral in a way that doesn't jive with our understanding of ourselves. Afterall fiction, particularly film, is an escapist medium.
But as gusottertrout says in the earlier comment above you can "like" a character in the context of the narrative without identifying personally with them. We can like the villain while not necessarily wanting to emulate them.
The reason I mentioned Blimp is that I think he reflects that dichotomy for me. To me, the movie seems to want to us to have a degree of affection for Blimp if not actually liking him. Pompous stuffed shirt but ultimately decent. I've definitely read that view of the character in critical works. However, I couldn't stand Blimp as either an abstraction or as a person because for me he comes off as destructive & ignorant rather than foolish or visionary or decent. I couldn't like him personally nor could I like his character in the context of the movie. Saying that, I recognise that my politics and culture colours my opinion here.
posted by Ashwagandha at 9:40 AM on August 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm only partway through the second season right now, but Crazy Ex-Girlfriend wittily leans into the "wait, hold on" reaction to well-worn abusive-and-tropey behavior.
And both Crazy Ex-Girlfriend and Halt and Catch Fire seem to have a nuanced understanding of how self-absorbed assholes can both damage and nurture the people around them, coaxing and bullying them into doing things they wouldn't have thought possible. In those cases it's sort of a side effect rather than the main project, but now that I think of it, the bittersweet reflection on the effects of being close to someone like that reminds me of how Doolittle reflects on what Higgins has done to her.
posted by brainwane at 12:45 PM on August 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
And both Crazy Ex-Girlfriend and Halt and Catch Fire seem to have a nuanced understanding of how self-absorbed assholes can both damage and nurture the people around them, coaxing and bullying them into doing things they wouldn't have thought possible. In those cases it's sort of a side effect rather than the main project, but now that I think of it, the bittersweet reflection on the effects of being close to someone like that reminds me of how Doolittle reflects on what Higgins has done to her.
posted by brainwane at 12:45 PM on August 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
Just saw the Lincoln Center production, and it did cause me to reconsider Higgins, although not in the way the director intended (more of an OTP than ever). It did make me a little sad to see that Higgins is not a good teacher. I'm not talking about his attitude, I mean his techniques are clearly flawed. Eliza is a highly motivated learner, has basic literacy, no physical problems, and she can spend eighteen hours a day studying. There is no point in beginning with repetition when she can't yet discriminate between sounds. What are you doing, Higgins? You're not correcting errors, you're reinforcing them.
Anyway, look for Eliza, Higgins, and the Woman What Was Done In on Kindle Unlimited sometime in the near future. Eliza solves a case, while Higgins learns to be less of a prescriptivist. Slightly less, there are limits to how much a person can change.
(It should be noted that this murder mystery/romance/linguistics lecture will be entirely based on Pygmalion, which is in the public domain, and any references to copyrighted actions such as dancing all night or growing accustomed to someone's face fall within the bounds of fair use.)
posted by betweenthebars at 12:26 PM on August 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
Anyway, look for Eliza, Higgins, and the Woman What Was Done In on Kindle Unlimited sometime in the near future. Eliza solves a case, while Higgins learns to be less of a prescriptivist. Slightly less, there are limits to how much a person can change.
(It should be noted that this murder mystery/romance/linguistics lecture will be entirely based on Pygmalion, which is in the public domain, and any references to copyrighted actions such as dancing all night or growing accustomed to someone's face fall within the bounds of fair use.)
posted by betweenthebars at 12:26 PM on August 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
Additionally, Freddy was twenty years old in 1913. His mother probably spent the last of her money getting him into a decent regiment, and then he was killed in the first year of the war.
posted by betweenthebars at 2:57 PM on August 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by betweenthebars at 2:57 PM on August 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
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Complicated, extended character studies are hard to end. Ambivalence and tension are what make them. I don't think this makes their characters any less enthralling. I think you're supposed to have a dynamic relationship with dynamic characters. How do you feel about Romeo or Hamlet at different parts of your life? Or Tyler Durden, for that matter.
posted by es_de_bah at 8:44 AM on August 13, 2018 [9 favorites]