Maybe Your Sleep Problem Isn't A Problem
August 30, 2018 3:47 AM   Subscribe

The conventional wisdom is that morning people are high achievers, go-getters, while late risers are lazy. But what if going to bed in the wee hours is actually an advantage? [SLNYT]
posted by hippybear (47 comments total) 20 users marked this as a favorite
 
Posted time-onysterically except I'm on a shifted work schedule this week and so it doesn't truly count.
posted by hippybear at 3:49 AM on August 30, 2018


“The most productive coders I know — and writers and probably a lot of other creatives,” said Tim Ferriss, the life-hacking author and tech investor, “tend to do a lot of their best work when others are asleep, at times that coincide with the fewest inbound distractions.”
I realise the article isn't actually making an argument as such (it's the style section, after all), but I find it amusing that I'm so much more productive at work as a result of getting into the office by 9 am and being three hours ahead of the rest of my team--the office is deserted and there are no meetings.

My last job had some people with opposite sleep schedules to me and it was more or less a nightmare for my work-life balance--I'd get sucked into staying later and later at the office. But the hours between 9 and 11 really were the best part of my day.
posted by hoyland at 4:01 AM on August 30, 2018 [5 favorites]


Well, I don't know about the cliche about morning people being high achievers either. I, and most early risers I know, do so largely to potter around the house or the garden, cup of tea in hand, enjoying the freshness and peacefulness of the day before it begins.
posted by tavegyl at 4:11 AM on August 30, 2018 [22 favorites]


The conventional wisdom is that morning people are high achievers, go-getters, while late risers are lazy.

Isn't this largely an outgrowth of our culture's lionization of people who devote every possible moment of their lives to work? A culture where bragging about putting-in 80 hours a week is celebrated?
posted by Thorzdad at 4:25 AM on August 30, 2018 [28 favorites]


I mean, I didn't really need another excuse for running Vet Dungeons in ESO til 1 in the morning...
posted by Groundhog Week at 4:32 AM on August 30, 2018 [2 favorites]


I'm kinda skeptical of what this article is pushing, because I've basically been on both sides of this, and I don't think there's really much difference.

From an early age, I was a night owl. My parents would put me to bed, and I'd sneak out and read books by flashlight into the wee hours of the morning. By the time I was in high school, they'd given up on making me go to bed, and accepted that I would probably be up tinkering on a computer till 2AM or later; it was routine on weekends for me to be going to sleep when I heard my parents getting up around 5AM.

I made it through college without ever having a class before 10AM, quite deliberately. It was completely normal, well into my late '20s, to come home from hanging out with friends at 2AM and then be on my computer till 3AM or 4AM.

At some point, though, things changed. For one, I got older. For another, I had responsibilities. I started working closely with teams overseas, which made a late schedule at work difficult. Traffic kinda sucks, and going in earlier helps. So, for over a decade I've basically been doing a 7:00AM or 7:30AM start time.

Here's the thing: I don't consider myself a "morning person", even though I wake up at 5-5:30AM. Mornings kinda suck. But: the kinda flow state I used to get into at 2AM when writing code? That same thing can happen at 7AM, because there's nearly nobody around in the office to bother me. I get so much done before 9-10AM (starting time for most of my colleagues) it's amazing! But, it's not because the morning is inherently better (or the late night) -- it's because having time where you've set yourself on a task but nobody is likely to bother you for hours is super productive.
posted by tocts at 4:32 AM on August 30, 2018 [17 favorites]


Early birds rule,
night owls drool!
posted by fairmettle at 4:37 AM on August 30, 2018


I'm with tocts - I've been on both sides of this and ultimately found both OK.

I think "times that coincide with the fewest inbound distractions” is the key for me. I feel like I'm a naturally late riser who works well in the early hours but this has generally been impossible with work schedules; I just drift into that pattern if I have more than a couple of days off work. But in the last few years I've been lucky enough to work at home so I start work a few hours before the rest of my team, get a lot done ahead of interruptions, collaborate more for the remainder of the day until I quit work when my kids get home from school in the middle of the afternoon. Took a while to realise that this would be good, and a while longer get used to it, and I still tend to go to bed too late for it, but the work-life balance is so much better.
posted by merlynkline at 4:39 AM on August 30, 2018 [3 favorites]


I’m a former night owl who, after years of poor sleep hygiene, reformed my habits for the most part and now wake up naturally at about 7 to 7:30 even if I don’t set an alarm. I’m the most productive during the point of the day when I’m awake, alert, rested, and not interrupted. That used to be at about 7-9pm after a nap, but now it’s about 8am to noon.

I’m also older and it seems like not getting enough sleep just really knocks me out. And I have to say that there’s a lot to be said for getting a lot done in the morning and then having the whole day ahead of you to putz around at your leisure.
posted by Autumnheart at 4:41 AM on August 30, 2018 [3 favorites]


But what if going to bed in the wee hours is actually an advantage?

Once again, the answer to the question posed in the headline is no. No, it is not an advantage when you have a schedule that involves waking up early. What it means is that I am always sleep-deprived, always exhausted, and this lack of sleep makes everything in my life worse.
posted by betweenthebars at 4:59 AM on August 30, 2018 [10 favorites]


What if there's no One True Sleep Cycle that will enable us to all be Superstar Workers? Not as clickable a headline, but...

There seems to be consensus on how much sleep is medically optimal, but when it should be seems to change depending on who is studying it, who is being studied, and who's reporting on it. Maybe it's more a question of how a given sleep cycle works for a given person in a given set of circumstances than it is a binary choice between "night owl bad" and "night owl good"?

(Of course I have no idea how you could run a well-controlled trial of this to determine whether or not it's an individual answer...)
posted by -1 at 5:03 AM on August 30, 2018 [5 favorites]


I think it's interesting that part of why the author must adapt to a daytime schedule is school: even if corporations adopt the "chronotype" model, there are a lot of sectors of society that won't. Schools -- public and private -- generally don't, for example, and this after years of other research showing that adolescents, in particular, are wired to sleep late and that early school start times cause actual learning and developmental obstacles. Those elements of society that are traditionally domestic and feminine are those most regulated by the clock, and more specifically by someone else's clock, even when those practices run afoul of facts.

Beyond this, as the author himself notes, it's also interesting that both he and the editors who set the headline feel some pull to frame this as "advantage," not simply difference. Difference isn't a good enough reason to accommodate someone; only if advantages accrue to those doing the accommodating is it worthwhile. This is a problem in a lot of U.S. public discourse about people whose needs or life schedules and benchmarks fall outside a rather narrow range. Even proponents of various forms of diversity seem bound to this rhetoric. Doing right by someone without a choice isn't enough; it also has to profit us to do so.

It's an NY Times style article, sure, but that just makes it an especially good example of how deeply entrenched and casually deployed these two ideological planks really are in U.S. culture.
posted by kewb at 5:08 AM on August 30, 2018 [12 favorites]


Schools is an interesting one. A lot is made of the point that adolescents are typically wired for more sleep, or later sleep. I've yet to see anyone actually take account of the fact that all the teachers, admins, TAs, etc. are not generally adolescents and do not necessarily share that trait.
posted by Dysk at 5:15 AM on August 30, 2018 [4 favorites]


Poor Richard’s Almanack (Revised) tells us, “Early to bed, early to rise,/Leaves you groggy and irritable while others are alert.”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:16 AM on August 30, 2018 [2 favorites]


But school is compulsory for kids and integral to their development, whereas working in a school is not compulsory and doesn’t have the same effect on the adult brain. So if we prioritize anyone’s physiology in a school setting, it should be the kids. That being said, the hours of the typical school day in the US is not terribly different from the corporate one, especially since it grew up around, and in many ways is still pegged to, the schedule of an agrarian-based economy.
posted by Autumnheart at 5:23 AM on August 30, 2018 [15 favorites]


But the quality of education students receive will very much depend on the quality and happiness of the staff running the school. Changing the timings dramatically is not likely to improve either.
posted by Dysk at 5:26 AM on August 30, 2018


“The most productive coders I know — and writers and probably a lot of other creatives,” said Tim Ferriss, the life-hacking author and tech investor, “tend to do a lot of their best work when others are asleep, at times that coincide with the fewest inbound distractions.”

This is why I started studying at night in college. I am, unfortunately, still on a night schedule.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:27 AM on August 30, 2018


The staff are adults who have autonomy and choice, and can suck up a detriment a lot better than children can. I mean jeez, I bet parents would be a lot happier in the newborn stage if they just slept through the night and ignored any crying they heard, but that wouldn’t do very much for the baby.

Part of the responsibility of a school is to cater to the physiological development of the students.
posted by Autumnheart at 5:31 AM on August 30, 2018 [15 favorites]


I've been training for the Chicago Marathon this summer and as result I have been getting up at 5am to run because otherwise it is too damn hot to spend a couple of hours exerting myself outside. It's kind of magical to be out running when hardly anyone else it but holy crap is my sleep cycle completely fubared on the non-running days. I struggle to stay awake after 8. I want dinner around 3:30. My cat has become an unwanted alarm clock nightmare. I can barely watch a TV show or movie after dinner. Days when I do get to sleep in I just cannot.

I knew the marathon was going to be several hours of physical exertion suck but I had no clue it was going to be several months of schedule altering total life suck.

On the plus side I have lost 7 lbs (probably mostly toenail weight) and am saving money except what I am spending on shoes, insoles, compression sleeves and any other running home remedies.

I suspect by the time the race rolls around I will have adapted. Just when I get to revert back to my regular sleep schedule.
posted by srboisvert at 5:32 AM on August 30, 2018 [6 favorites]


Just for example’s sake, my former school district starts high school and middle school at 8:10am and gets out at 3. Elementary school starts at 9:35am and gets out at 4. I know that state-wide there was some discussion and readjustment of school start times—when I was a student, all the schools started an hour earlier and got out an hour earlier. As a HS student I basically felt chronically sleep-deprived, but I also worked weekends at a typical retail job, and the earlier shifts started at 8 or 9 anyway, so my schedule didn’t alter dramatically between school and work.

This is a fuzzy memory, but if I recall correctly, part of the justification for having schools begin an hour later was also to bring school hours in greater alignment with typical working hours. But I’m not a parent myself so I didn’t pay tons of attention to the issue. Right now my job’s core hours are 9am to 4pm, and most of my jobs (typical white collar) have had core hours almost entirely between 8am and 5pm; rarely have I run into a salaried job where the expectation was to stay in the office past 6pm or to arrive earlier than 8am.

Not sure where I’m going with that except that in practice, kids and salaried adults seem to keep pretty similar hours. Shift-based jobs are a different story of course.
posted by Autumnheart at 6:02 AM on August 30, 2018


The explanation that was going around when I was in high school and complaining about how the district's elementary schools, where kids tend to wake up early, started around 9:30, while the high schools started two hours earlier, was "sports."
posted by trig at 6:14 AM on August 30, 2018 [1 favorite]


I'm another person who switched sleep patterns. I went from always staying up late and sleeping in as much as possible all through school to switching to waking up early (and therefore needing to go to bed earlier to avoid sleep deprivation). I kind of miss the days of being able to sleep in, but there are advantages to being up early, too, so it mostly balances.

I start work early in order to leave the office early; I have a bunch of colleagues who start around 10, which means they are all still sitting at their desks for hours while I am home sipping a glass of wine.

School schedules are a different question, but in appropriate work settings (like a lot of white collar office work) offering people some flexibility is a good thing and would let people find the schedule that works best for them.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:27 AM on August 30, 2018


I used to think I was a night owl but I wasn't. It was just I was doing stuff during the day that it was the only time that I had by myself in a block. It took me literally years it was false economy. If I went to bed at 11 was so much more productive and less kranky during the day.
posted by Damienmce at 6:34 AM on August 30, 2018 [1 favorite]


My body naturally wants to go to bed around 2 a.m. and rise around 10 a.m.

ha! rookie.

Early birds rule,
night owls drool!

The early bird catches the worm, unless the super super late bird catches the worm before the early bird.
-- Travis McElroy
posted by bigendian at 6:36 AM on August 30, 2018 [5 favorites]


I work from home right now and the difference between getting up at 7:15 and 8:30 to start at 9 is amazing. I always HATED having to be asleep by 11:15 and most nights I wouldn't fall asleep until well after midnight. The difference is, now I get enough sleep. I never "got used" to it--I really do believe there's something about my body that just... won't go to sleep normally before midnight.

I hear early-risers talk about the peacefulness of the morning, how nice it is to putter around, and I'm like... but that's the best time to sleep. You are a crazy person. I woke up at 4AM and couldn't get back to sleep a few weeks ago and so ended up getting up at 6AM and I was like.... what the fuck do I even do right now?
posted by Automocar at 6:39 AM on August 30, 2018 [4 favorites]


I totally agree Automocar. I had a job once where I had to get up at about 5.30. Even thought I still had about 9 hours of sleep, I always felt pretty terrible for the rest of the day. I'd often have headaches. And for the year I had that job, frankly, my mental health just got worse and worse. I never "got used" to getting up that early. (The fact that on some days in winter, working 7-5am in a bakery with no windows, I would never see the sun, was probably a factor).

Now I find as long as I get up after 8.30, I'm fine, although my ideal is about midnight to 10am. If I have to get up before 8.30 I feel under the weather.
posted by stillnocturnal at 6:49 AM on August 30, 2018 [2 favorites]


I find so much of what people attribute to their schedules is about having distraction-free, alone time to get things done. When I'm in the office before my coworkers, I get more done, and my best friend, who likes to work at night, gets more done from the confines of her room. However, I think we'd both do perfectly well if we had some freaking DOORS to close at the office and not have to be jammed in with 500 other people all trying to pretend we weren't sitting shoulder-to-shoulder with one another for 8 full hours.
posted by xingcat at 6:52 AM on August 30, 2018 [6 favorites]


Seeing people talk about an ideal being like ten hours of sleep a night just boggles my mind. I mean, I naturally go to bed later than the people around me, and get up earlier (I really can't sleep more than about five or six hours in a go most of the time) so I always figured I was just a little weird compared to the eight hours people so often cite but damn, ten hours? I can't imagine being able to do that on the regular.
posted by Dysk at 7:01 AM on August 30, 2018 [4 favorites]


Experiences:

--At Stanford (not a "college" like the study mentioned) 95% of dorms were up and studying and/or socializing well after midnight. It was rare for a class to start before 1000. The high achievers were def not Larks. Many students were getting by on 5 or 6 hours of sleep during the week, then sleeping 10-12 hours straight on weekends.

--Dotcom experiences were "come in late morning, work until late evening." Long days, sure. Offices/cubicles deserted in the mornings, bustling at 2100.

--I had an Owl job once upon a time. A new Lark boss came on board and insisted everyone be at their desks at 0730. Several soon quit. I learned to take a two hour break and get a mid-day nap, then return to work until early evening. When Lark boss discovered this, I had to get an MDs note for Rx/permission to nap due to a "sleep disorder."

I keep what I call the Tropical Schedule to this day: Rise like a Lark, nap like the Tropics, Late like the Owl. Works for me. I sometimes wish I could hibernate....
posted by CrowGoat at 7:07 AM on August 30, 2018 [3 favorites]


Lifelong night owl here. I, too, am frustrated by this article (and many others) who insist on framing this issue in terms of work productivity. Similarly, this lark "titans of industry" versus night-owl "maverick" cliche is annoying and paper-thin.

If you want to spend your favorite hours being a corporate superstar or want to code all night, that's fine, and so is wanting to just savor being alive and conscious either in the morning or night.
posted by desuetude at 7:14 AM on August 30, 2018 [5 favorites]


I'm a natural night owl so I have always had the shit problems that go along with that. BUT when I got a job that forced me to work 7-4 it really fucked me up for life and I still haven't recovered decades later even though that only lasted a few months before I went back to 8-5, because I developed a charming habit of waking up 2 hours before I need to get up--repeatedly--to check the alarm to make sure I haven't slept through it.* I STILL don't get tired before 11 p.m. at the earliest unless something's wrong with me and THEN most of the week I am up between 5-7 when I do not, at all, need to be up that early. I feel like absolute dogshit being awake that early. I have no energy, I get nothing done besides staring blearily at the computer. I do not enjoy being conscious at this time. Literally the only thing it's good for is catching up on last night's television before I go to work.

* I am now a light sleeper and I've slept through one alarm in my life--which was because I was up in the middle of the night because there was some emergency crew jackhammering right in front of my apartment. I heard the thing and did not register what it was at all after that.

I just get so tired of early bird domination. We have "flex schedules" at work but they really only work for those who voluntarily wake up at 3 a.m. and go to bed at 7 p.m. so they want to go to work at 7 a.m. since they are already up and here. Ain't no way in hell I could ask to work 9-6, especially since all staff meetings are held from 8-9 a.m. since that's the only time everyone is there before public hours start. It seems like the only places that are fine with you being a night owl are probably shitty night security jobs. Or maybe coding but I don't know how hours go for that in the tech industry vs. "face time" hours.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:18 AM on August 30, 2018


I see any time before work as fundamentally tainted and best spent sleeping until you have to wake to only be a little late. Any time with work looming ahead isn't possible for me to enjoy and to be completely honest I view sleep as a function of work during days I have work the next, so I also try to minimize that. 9-11 hours of my day are already enslaved by work, the idea of giving another 8 for the sake of work is unacceptable to me. I also don't really know what a high-achiever really is, because from the context here it just sounds like a sucker who does even more work.
posted by GoblinHoney at 7:59 AM on August 30, 2018 [12 favorites]


ten hours? I can't imagine being able to do that on the regular

I could do that AND have a nap in the afternoons.

Seriously though, I think my body just isn't that great at recovery and needs extra time. Or possibly I just do everything *really intensely*. I also tend to get completely wiped out after exercise and have never experienced this magical idea that exercising gives you more energy, even overall.

That or I think too many dirty thoughts so it just takes longer to clean my brain.
posted by stillnocturnal at 8:48 AM on August 30, 2018 [2 favorites]


I'm a night owl and have been since adolescence. My dad is an extreme Type A morning person (he has a first and second breakfast because he gets up so early that by the time everyone else is having normal breakfast, he's hungry again). The couple summers that I lived at home during college were fucking miserable for me because my dad just could not conceive of a virtuous, hard-working, moral person who slept past 8 AM. The couple weeks I'd have to spend looking for jobs at the beginning of the summer were filled with him attempting to wake me up because YOU HAVE TO GO GET A JOB AND HOW ARE YOU GOING TO DO THAT IF YOU'RE SLEEPING and me being like NOWHERE IS EVEN OPEN YET IT IS 7 AM FUCK OFF.

For me the difference between GSD in the early morning and the late evening is that in the early morning I know that that quiet time is going to end soon. I have a really hard time getting my flow on if I know there's a hard time limit on it. I need a really open-ended span of time or else I just sit there dreading when it's going to be over instead of actually working.

That said, I don't have much of a choice at this point. My work day starts at 8:30 AM and ends at 5:00 and I have to take my son to school before I go to work and then pick him up in a timely manner after.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:10 AM on August 30, 2018 [10 favorites]


This is where I point out that being a night owl actually works out better for my life because I don't get into work until after 10am usually, and that means I can get up at 8:30, go do some errands where the place, like government offices, are only open from 9 am to 4 pm. I never understood the point of service businesses that are only open while their customers are at a 9-5 job.
posted by numaner at 1:32 PM on August 30, 2018 [3 favorites]


I used to be a morning person, when I was a kid. Then I was a night person, as a college student. Now I wish I could sleep ten hours a day, because I'm working full time and living with a disability that leaves me constantly fatigued.
posted by bile and syntax at 2:19 PM on August 30, 2018 [1 favorite]


I really despise the judgement that comes from the Larks.

Lately, I'm better about not letting it get under my skin. I tell myself, "You don't know my life."

But why do they have to be so judgy.
posted by yesster at 3:37 PM on August 30, 2018 [4 favorites]


It starts off with a montage of perky professionals, rising before dawn in homes and executive-class hotel rooms around the world, stretching their gym-toned bodies and firing up coffeepots at an hour usually reserved for mating fruit bats.

It's funny how even this commercial that he kicks the piece off with involves professionals "firing up coffeepots." If you feel the need to self-medicate with stimulants in order to be alert at that hour, maybe you're not a natural morning person at all.

According to Dr. Walker, about 40 percent of the population are morning people, 30 percent are evening people, and the remainder land somewhere in between.

I'd be interested in whether this is self-reported, whether it accounts for caffeine (and other stimulants) as a variable, and if not, how the numbers change if you control for that.
posted by naju at 3:58 PM on August 30, 2018


I, and most early risers I know, do so largely to potter around the house or the garden, cup of tea in hand, enjoying the freshness and peacefulness of the day before it begins.

Meanwhile as a natural night owl, when I've had schedules that allow for it, there's nothing quite like that feeling around 9pm when you start to, as the piece says, "light up like the Rockefeller Center Christmas tree", when you know you can really stretch out and do whatever you feel like creatively for the next ~8 hours - hack some code together from start to finish, get significant progress done on your novel, compose and record a song in one session. I really value and miss that feeling like the whole world is open for me to take on, with no pressing distractions or daytime chores to get through, with everyone else winding down or turned off for the night or watching Netflix. That's when my brain comes alive and the whole world seems open-ended and everything is possible to do. I think a key factor is that there's no hard stop or quitting time that late at night - if you're awake and feel up for it, and don't have to get up in the morning, then your free time suddenly feels limitless every single night, even if that's an illusion.
posted by naju at 4:07 PM on August 30, 2018 [17 favorites]


And to close that thought progression - there's an argument to be made that you can feel at your best creatively when you can stop watching the clock. Creative time is usually not structured time for me.
posted by naju at 4:15 PM on August 30, 2018 [4 favorites]


The best shift I ever worked was 10 am to 7 pm. That's when I'm productive. And I missed all the traffic. That job wasn't great otherwise, but I loved that shift. You still had plenty of evening left and you didn't have to get up super early.
posted by emjaybee at 6:48 PM on August 30, 2018 [1 favorite]


I love sleeping when I don't have to watch the clock. But I also agree that it feels better and you can get more done if you have the whole night ahead of you, not "I'm up at 5 a.m., feel like shit, still gotta keep watching the clock to start getting ready by 7," which is another reason why I don't get shit done most of the time. How can you start a project knowing you have to wrap it up by 6:30 or whatever?

I am wide awake and full of energy right now when I KNOW I should be sleepy and tired. I am not tired a whit and will be punished in the morning. Especially since I have to get up even earlier to deal with car things and drive to a different location for work that isn't my usual lazy stroll.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:25 PM on August 30, 2018


I get a huge productivity surge around 4PM that lasts for hours. My most satisfying work schedule ever was swing shift where I was working 3PM-midnight.

I very rarely have to be at work before 10AM so I usually get up at 9AM. I can do pretty good work from 10:15 to 3PM but at 4 I pick up steam and can work for hours. If I wasn't constrained by an arbitrary schedule of meetings I'd work that same swing shift.

The worst part about being a night owl is how much grief early-risers - especially family members - give me when I'm with them.
posted by bendy at 12:07 AM on August 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


Maybe it's my age and social circle, but I see people getting grief for calling it a night and going to bed while people are still up far more often. But then I guess people are much more likely to be around one another to admonish each other in the evenings than the mornings.
posted by Dysk at 1:49 AM on August 31, 2018 [2 favorites]


Say what you will about night owls, but we are a tribe of mavericks. Our hall of fame — or infamy — includes rebels (Keith Richards, Hunter S. Thompson) and revolutionaries (Mao, Stalin), mad geniuses (James Joyce, Prince) and madmen (Charles Manson, Hitler). Even our conventional political heroes (Barack Obama, Winston Churchill) are remembered as genius outsiders.

Does anyone find it odd that every example in his tribe of night owls/mavericks is a dude? I read this a few days ago and it still strikes me as weird and maybe a little sexist.

As for me, I'm at work 7:30 am to 4:30 pm. I like the idea of having free time both before and after work, so I'm working on trying to lift my bedtime up to as early as 9 pm and waking up 4 or 5 am. This is also because it seems my mood rises and sets with the sun. I'm usually more positive (or less negative, depending on how you see it) in the morning than I am at night. So, the sooner I get to bed in the evening, the better.
posted by FJT at 7:41 AM on August 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


The happiest periods of my life were when I was freelancing and would go to sleep at 6 a.m. when the birds started singing and woke up at 3 in the afternoon.

Also when I was off the grid and would go to sleep after sundown and woke up at 4 a.m.

None of those scheduled align with having a proper job and a kid in school.

I made the wrong career choice.
posted by Dr. Curare at 7:54 AM on August 31, 2018


Does anyone find it odd that every example in his tribe of night owls/mavericks is a dude? I read this a few days ago and it still strikes me as weird and maybe a little sexist.

Hm, good point. I don't know of any famous cited night owl ladies, come to think of it. Maybe because women always have to be up with the birds and the small children...or just that there's usually less famous women.

I need to pass on that at my work retreat today several of us--I believe about 4 out of 25--outed ourselves as the only night owls in the office and please, please don't expect us to be cheerful and perky at 8 a.m. Everyone else is a happy early bird, of course! Happy, chirping, and enthusiastic to go to work!
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:39 PM on August 31, 2018 [1 favorite]


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