Trump Has Changed How Teens View the News
August 30, 2018 10:38 PM Subscribe
“There was no assumption that the news would convey the truth or would be worthy of their trust,” the study reported.
Teenagers, in particular, appear to be increasingly questioning the credibility and value of traditional media organizations.
The same goes increasingly over here in the UK and the Netherlands to be honest, and no, it's not all on Trump, it's on journalism --or what goes for it-- itself.
It wasn't Russian bots that launched the vaccines cause autism conspiracy theory, it was the Daily Mail and respected broadsheets, to name just one example.
There's a lack of trust in "traditional media organisations" because time and again over the past two decades these organisations have betrayed that trust, by stanning for the Wars on Afghanistan and Iraq, by shilling for everything from Big Cancer to Big Climate Change, by going soft on Republicans and Tories but pushing conspiracy theories that a lifelong antiracism campaigner is secretly the new Hitler, etc ad infinitum.
Seeing people who've been consistently wrong, lying, racist, sexist and transphobe keep getting space in "respectable" outlets hasn't helped, especially not the past few years as they've made arses of themselves on Twitter.
A more thin skinned breed of professional than the big name "journalist" has yet to be invented.
posted by MartinWisse at 11:08 PM on August 30, 2018 [45 favorites]
It wasn't Russian bots that launched the vaccines cause autism conspiracy theory, it was the Daily Mail and respected broadsheets, to name just one example.
There's a lack of trust in "traditional media organisations" because time and again over the past two decades these organisations have betrayed that trust, by stanning for the Wars on Afghanistan and Iraq, by shilling for everything from Big Cancer to Big Climate Change, by going soft on Republicans and Tories but pushing conspiracy theories that a lifelong antiracism campaigner is secretly the new Hitler, etc ad infinitum.
Seeing people who've been consistently wrong, lying, racist, sexist and transphobe keep getting space in "respectable" outlets hasn't helped, especially not the past few years as they've made arses of themselves on Twitter.
A more thin skinned breed of professional than the big name "journalist" has yet to be invented.
posted by MartinWisse at 11:08 PM on August 30, 2018 [45 favorites]
They fell for Reagan too. It's all hiding the fact that kids are mostly bred by conservatives.
posted by Brian B. at 11:33 PM on August 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Brian B. at 11:33 PM on August 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
Increasingly wondering if all of this is but signs of intensifying struggle between the status quo that wants to eat the world and rapidly approaching no turning back point on climate change related changes. In a way it could also be considered a generation gap - teenagers have full lives ahead of them and the ones playing around with the narratives just want to extract maximum profit in the now.
posted by infini at 11:52 PM on August 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by infini at 11:52 PM on August 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
it's not all on Trump, it's on journalism...
There's a lack of trust in "traditional media organisations" because time and again over the past two decades these organisations have betrayed that trust, by stanning for the Wars on Afghanistan and Iraq, by shilling for everything from Big Cancer to Big Climate Change, by going soft on Republicans and Tories but pushing conspiracy theories that a lifelong antiracism campaigner is secretly the new Hitler, etc ad infinitum.
no offense, but i just can't with this nonsense anymore. the whole "trump isnt really to blame/isnt really that dangerous/isnt really that different, he's just a symptom of mainstream liberalism and journalism selling out the workers of the world" is a load. a fucking load.
mainstream news didnt start the iraq war. george W did. cnn doesnt have the keys to the aircraft carriers, and if you think a few columnists in the nytimes swung the pendulum on that one, i beg to differ. as for "big cancer" and "big climate change," if you mean NGOs that waste money, i dont really see that as an existential threat to civilization. not like, yknow, climate change itself. and if by lifelong antiracism campaigner you mean corbyn, that motherfucker is a piece of shit antisemite, and i think everyone of good faith knows that.
journalists are easy targets, but as we see now with trump in control, they have very very little power. the reason people have lost trust in journalism has a lot more to do with the fact that we are spoiled for choice on the internet and can self segregate by our information sources in a way we couldnt 40 years ago. so of course when people can pick their sources, they wont all trust the same one.
and for every self satisfied cnn anchor that "shills" for this cause or that, or makes a mistake, or seems too big for their britches, there are 100 journos who make pennies to research, investigate, and hound politicians to hold them accountable, to tell you what a ballot measure will do, to uncover corruption, and for chrissakes to tell you what band you should see or restaurant you should go to. they drive to work in 1998 geo metros and you've never heard their names. so give em a damn break and focus your ire where it belongs: the rightwing fascist global resurgence and the financier billionaires that are letting it happen.
posted by wibari at 11:57 PM on August 30, 2018 [96 favorites]
There's a lack of trust in "traditional media organisations" because time and again over the past two decades these organisations have betrayed that trust, by stanning for the Wars on Afghanistan and Iraq, by shilling for everything from Big Cancer to Big Climate Change, by going soft on Republicans and Tories but pushing conspiracy theories that a lifelong antiracism campaigner is secretly the new Hitler, etc ad infinitum.
no offense, but i just can't with this nonsense anymore. the whole "trump isnt really to blame/isnt really that dangerous/isnt really that different, he's just a symptom of mainstream liberalism and journalism selling out the workers of the world" is a load. a fucking load.
mainstream news didnt start the iraq war. george W did. cnn doesnt have the keys to the aircraft carriers, and if you think a few columnists in the nytimes swung the pendulum on that one, i beg to differ. as for "big cancer" and "big climate change," if you mean NGOs that waste money, i dont really see that as an existential threat to civilization. not like, yknow, climate change itself. and if by lifelong antiracism campaigner you mean corbyn, that motherfucker is a piece of shit antisemite, and i think everyone of good faith knows that.
journalists are easy targets, but as we see now with trump in control, they have very very little power. the reason people have lost trust in journalism has a lot more to do with the fact that we are spoiled for choice on the internet and can self segregate by our information sources in a way we couldnt 40 years ago. so of course when people can pick their sources, they wont all trust the same one.
and for every self satisfied cnn anchor that "shills" for this cause or that, or makes a mistake, or seems too big for their britches, there are 100 journos who make pennies to research, investigate, and hound politicians to hold them accountable, to tell you what a ballot measure will do, to uncover corruption, and for chrissakes to tell you what band you should see or restaurant you should go to. they drive to work in 1998 geo metros and you've never heard their names. so give em a damn break and focus your ire where it belongs: the rightwing fascist global resurgence and the financier billionaires that are letting it happen.
posted by wibari at 11:57 PM on August 30, 2018 [96 favorites]
Surely, the greatest sign that people no longer trust the media is that we aren’t even engaging with the article’s specific content but instead having a cool, freeform discussion about our own long-held opinions on if/when we should have stopped trusting the news and why we were right to do so.
For “non-biased news,” the teens I spoke to said they turn directly to journalists themselves or news-related pages on social media vetted by people they trust. “I follow a few political Instagram accounts,” Colin said. “They’ll post memes and headlines and stuff and people discuss them. Political Instagram is a thing. It’s sort of like a weird mesh between a meme page and a news page.”
I really feel this, because it’ so easy to just find journalists, but it leaves you with these incredible holes in what you actually hear about in the world. You can go super deep on esoteric Trump stories when the news that should matter is what’s happening down the street.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:05 AM on August 31, 2018 [14 favorites]
For “non-biased news,” the teens I spoke to said they turn directly to journalists themselves or news-related pages on social media vetted by people they trust. “I follow a few political Instagram accounts,” Colin said. “They’ll post memes and headlines and stuff and people discuss them. Political Instagram is a thing. It’s sort of like a weird mesh between a meme page and a news page.”
I really feel this, because it’ so easy to just find journalists, but it leaves you with these incredible holes in what you actually hear about in the world. You can go super deep on esoteric Trump stories when the news that should matter is what’s happening down the street.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:05 AM on August 31, 2018 [14 favorites]
It looks to me like framing is seen as more pertinent than fact. The very attempt to be seen as "neutral" is viewed as dishonest on its face for failing to provide the "real" emotional perspective behind the information. It isn't enough to suggest something that would be apparent through careful reading, it has to be stated up front and then it will be either accepted or rejected largely based on already held beliefs developed through peer groups.
News media now seems to mostly be used as a spring board for pointing to mistakes and bias that "proves" one's own point of view simply because it was reported in an disagreeable manner. Opposing arguments are always close to hand on the internet from sources one trusts for already being in agreement with the view one wants to hold. It's an ongoing circle of confirmation bias.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:04 AM on August 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
News media now seems to mostly be used as a spring board for pointing to mistakes and bias that "proves" one's own point of view simply because it was reported in an disagreeable manner. Opposing arguments are always close to hand on the internet from sources one trusts for already being in agreement with the view one wants to hold. It's an ongoing circle of confirmation bias.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:04 AM on August 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
and for every self satisfied cnn anchor that "shills" for this cause or that, or makes a mistake, or seems too big for their britches, there are 100 journos who make pennies to research, investigate, and hound politicians to hold them accountable, to tell you what a ballot measure will do, to uncover corruption, and for chrissakes to tell you what band you should see or restaurant you should go to.
Eh, not in the UK. The redtops and their ilk outnumber 'proper' papers and some of them are just redtops in highbrow cosplay. The media landscape in the UK is bad in a way that's hard to properly communicate. Doubly so if people just dismiss the idea entirely based on their opinions on the situation in the US.
posted by Dysk at 1:12 AM on August 31, 2018 [19 favorites]
Eh, not in the UK. The redtops and their ilk outnumber 'proper' papers and some of them are just redtops in highbrow cosplay. The media landscape in the UK is bad in a way that's hard to properly communicate. Doubly so if people just dismiss the idea entirely based on their opinions on the situation in the US.
posted by Dysk at 1:12 AM on August 31, 2018 [19 favorites]
> that motherfucker is a piece of shit antisemite, and i think everyone of good faith knows that.
You should have put this at the top so we could stop reading there.
posted by Space Coyote at 1:35 AM on August 31, 2018 [19 favorites]
You should have put this at the top so we could stop reading there.
posted by Space Coyote at 1:35 AM on August 31, 2018 [19 favorites]
The media landscape in the UK is bad in a way that's hard to properly communicate. Doubly so if people just dismiss the idea entirely based on their opinions on the situation in the US
fair enough. i was talking about US journalism because that's what the article addressed.
posted by wibari at 2:01 AM on August 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
fair enough. i was talking about US journalism because that's what the article addressed.
posted by wibari at 2:01 AM on August 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
Okay, but you were responding to a comment predominantly about the UK media landscape, and indeed your response addressed the UK as well.
posted by Dysk at 2:02 AM on August 31, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 2:02 AM on August 31, 2018 [6 favorites]
This is an ongoing process of media delegitimation among the young that predates Trump.
posted by talos at 2:03 AM on August 31, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by talos at 2:03 AM on August 31, 2018 [6 favorites]
The other day I overheard a conversation between some kids in their late teens who were messing with an adult by saying the earth was flat and that "everything else is a lie so you can't prove it's not." I got the impression that they were playing on this alarm adults have and messing with them, it was great, actually.
posted by Space Coyote at 2:09 AM on August 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Space Coyote at 2:09 AM on August 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
Guys, this article is about American teens’ attitudes about American media, and how the American president is changing things with his relentless anti-media campaign. If you want to say “no, the media in my country really does suck,” okay, but the folks defending US media in response to an article about US media were not saying that every media outlet in every nation on the planet Earth is worthy of respect.
Look, this is simple: Trump’s brand of corrupt and racist authoritarianism requires undermining the media so the stories about all the horrific things he does don’t get traction with the American public. It’s a move straight out of the fascist playbook and it’s working here and I’m getting to watch in real time everyday as that greedy, abusive, ignorant, corrupt, xenophobic, emperor-wannabe is applauded by crowds of brainwashed hordes who are convinced that night is actually day because Trump told them so. We’re facing a threat to our democracy that we might very well lose, and saying “you know, if this article were about a completely different country with a different media culture and a much less dangerous government, it would have a good point” doesn’t have any bearing on the situation.
If the article were about cancer patients who shun modern medicine and Facebook hoaxes for cures, saying “yeah but I know a doctor somewhere else who really is kind of a moron” wouldn’t be a useful response.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 2:14 AM on August 31, 2018 [45 favorites]
Look, this is simple: Trump’s brand of corrupt and racist authoritarianism requires undermining the media so the stories about all the horrific things he does don’t get traction with the American public. It’s a move straight out of the fascist playbook and it’s working here and I’m getting to watch in real time everyday as that greedy, abusive, ignorant, corrupt, xenophobic, emperor-wannabe is applauded by crowds of brainwashed hordes who are convinced that night is actually day because Trump told them so. We’re facing a threat to our democracy that we might very well lose, and saying “you know, if this article were about a completely different country with a different media culture and a much less dangerous government, it would have a good point” doesn’t have any bearing on the situation.
If the article were about cancer patients who shun modern medicine and Facebook hoaxes for cures, saying “yeah but I know a doctor somewhere else who really is kind of a moron” wouldn’t be a useful response.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 2:14 AM on August 31, 2018 [45 favorites]
One of the top irritating things about the last couple of years is my having to defend often garbage sensationalist media outlets because they're not outright making stories up, and breathless sensationalizing about a recent horrible thing doesn't mean the thing isn't horrible or didn't happen.
posted by flaterik at 2:17 AM on August 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by flaterik at 2:17 AM on August 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
Guys, this article is about American teens’ attitudes about American media, and how the American president is changing things with his relentless anti-media campaign.
That's the argument the article is making, yes. It's not very convincing when they don't acknowledge that it is absolutely part of a broader trend, both in the US pre-Trump, and in the rest of the world, of traditional news media losing trust. They seem to be basing their argument on a single 2017 study and some interviews, without establishing a baseline. Simply, they have in no way shown that this trend is down to Trump like they claim. He certainly hasn't helped, but you need to show that there was trust before Trump as well as there being none now, to show that it's down to him. They can't show that, because it isn't.
posted by Dysk at 2:23 AM on August 31, 2018 [20 favorites]
That's the argument the article is making, yes. It's not very convincing when they don't acknowledge that it is absolutely part of a broader trend, both in the US pre-Trump, and in the rest of the world, of traditional news media losing trust. They seem to be basing their argument on a single 2017 study and some interviews, without establishing a baseline. Simply, they have in no way shown that this trend is down to Trump like they claim. He certainly hasn't helped, but you need to show that there was trust before Trump as well as there being none now, to show that it's down to him. They can't show that, because it isn't.
posted by Dysk at 2:23 AM on August 31, 2018 [20 favorites]
Years ago I was a teen volunteering at a school where one of our tasks was to dump a bunch of old books that were in no way suitable for the classroom anymore. A reporter came by and said he wanted to do a story on our volunteer program. He was taking photos too. He was showed around and he came across the books we were in the process of dumping and asked us about them. I said, "Well, as you can see, many of these books are out of date." The corners of the pages were yellow and sometimes even fused together from humidity over the years and they had outdated info. They were in such a decrepit state that you could see it just by looking at them because many of the pages no longer lied flat inside the covers. He asked us more about our volunteering and we were excited that a journalist was taking interest because it meant we could get the word out there and get even more volunteers to join. A couple days later we saw the article with a title that was roughly this: WASTEFUL SCHOOL DUMPS PERFECTLY GOOD BOOKS. with a picture of our pile of books by it. This was when pictures in papers were black and white and grainy so you couldn't see the true state of the books from the picture. My jaw dropped. That reporter knew full well the true state of those books and the way the article was worded it made it sound like they were brand new books that the school just decided to dump. He didn't mention the age of them, the info in them, the yellowing or the warping. All of it 'conveniently' left out, leaving the reader to decide what "perfectly good" meant exactly. I was a minor at this time so I was pretty shocked, but some of the older folks around me weren't at all. Meaning they had heard stories about reporters or experienced things themselves like this before. The school was inundated with calls from parents after that article, many of whom had to be shown the books to see that they were lied to.
Fake news was a problem long before trump or facebook (though social media has obviously made it worse.)
Reporters get points in their careers for causing drama where there is none to begin with and until they stop being rewarded for that, trust in them is going to continue to dwindle. Blaming this on Trump is just the media doing once again what Trump himself does often- avoiding self-reflection and pointing the finger elsewhere.
posted by fantasticness at 2:58 AM on August 31, 2018 [23 favorites]
Fake news was a problem long before trump or facebook (though social media has obviously made it worse.)
Reporters get points in their careers for causing drama where there is none to begin with and until they stop being rewarded for that, trust in them is going to continue to dwindle. Blaming this on Trump is just the media doing once again what Trump himself does often- avoiding self-reflection and pointing the finger elsewhere.
posted by fantasticness at 2:58 AM on August 31, 2018 [23 favorites]
It isn't Trump who has created this. He's amplified it, but it was Roger Ailes who did it. "Fair And Balanced" as a marketing phrase for sharply slanted news which pandered to fearful aging white people, which ended up being on in every airport and doctor's office and whatever in the country for decades. Trump has only bought into Ailes concept because he's consumed it for so long he believes it's true. Hell, at this point, the best way to get a message to Trump that he will act on is to have it as a story on Fox & Friends. I mean, it's literally happening regularly, nearly every day.
We've never had a president who takes marching orders from a propaganda machine before. How lucky we are?
posted by hippybear at 2:59 AM on August 31, 2018 [20 favorites]
We've never had a president who takes marching orders from a propaganda machine before. How lucky we are?
posted by hippybear at 2:59 AM on August 31, 2018 [20 favorites]
no offense, but i just can't with this nonsense anymore. the whole "trump isnt really to blame/isnt really that dangerous/isnt really that different, he's just a symptom of mainstream liberalism and journalism selling out the workers of the world" is a load. a fucking load.
Note that I never said Trump wasn't too blame for the actual policies, but quite clearly the NYT and other media are at the very least partially responsible for getting him elected,
"but her emails...."
Your whole rant is a case of special pleading, of wanting to excuse journalism from the sins it has perpetuated these past few decades, of not wanting to take the responsibility of telling truth to power, that certainly the NYT can't be held accountable for lying about Iraq and how its reputation swayed quite a few people in the run up to the war.
Teens who grew up with this legacy, it really is astonishing they don't trust the media more!
and if by lifelong antiracism campaigner you mean corbyn, that motherfucker is a piece of shit antisemite
Note that it was the Daily Torygraph who ran a headline and article penned by Theresa May's policy advisor that painted Soros as the modern "Jewish bankers manipulating elections" conspiracy theory and the Tories who under Cameron went to align themselves with actual antisemitic parties in the EU parliament, though at least Brexit will solve that!
Corbyn meanwhile? Actual British Jewish opinion differs. Yes, a lot of the UK establishment is crying wolf against him, but a lot of that is clearly cynical usage of antisemitism accusations by people who've now spent years trying to smear him with anything, For Zionists having somebody far more sympathetic to the Palestinians than any Labour leader has been must be very annoying too, so it's no wonder so many prominent Zionists are agitating against him.
posted by MartinWisse at 2:59 AM on August 31, 2018 [21 favorites]
Note that I never said Trump wasn't too blame for the actual policies, but quite clearly the NYT and other media are at the very least partially responsible for getting him elected,
"but her emails...."
Your whole rant is a case of special pleading, of wanting to excuse journalism from the sins it has perpetuated these past few decades, of not wanting to take the responsibility of telling truth to power, that certainly the NYT can't be held accountable for lying about Iraq and how its reputation swayed quite a few people in the run up to the war.
Teens who grew up with this legacy, it really is astonishing they don't trust the media more!
and if by lifelong antiracism campaigner you mean corbyn, that motherfucker is a piece of shit antisemite
Note that it was the Daily Torygraph who ran a headline and article penned by Theresa May's policy advisor that painted Soros as the modern "Jewish bankers manipulating elections" conspiracy theory and the Tories who under Cameron went to align themselves with actual antisemitic parties in the EU parliament, though at least Brexit will solve that!
Corbyn meanwhile? Actual British Jewish opinion differs. Yes, a lot of the UK establishment is crying wolf against him, but a lot of that is clearly cynical usage of antisemitism accusations by people who've now spent years trying to smear him with anything, For Zionists having somebody far more sympathetic to the Palestinians than any Labour leader has been must be very annoying too, so it's no wonder so many prominent Zionists are agitating against him.
posted by MartinWisse at 2:59 AM on August 31, 2018 [21 favorites]
A more thin skinned breed of professional than the big name "journalist" has yet to be invented.
“MeFite” :)
posted by Barack Spinoza at 3:44 AM on August 31, 2018 [11 favorites]
“MeFite” :)
posted by Barack Spinoza at 3:44 AM on August 31, 2018 [11 favorites]
WASTEFUL SCHOOL DUMPS PERFECTLY GOOD BOOKS. with a picture of our pile of books by it. This was when pictures in papers were black and white and grainy so you couldn't see the true state of the books from the picture. My jaw dropped. That reporter knew full well the true state of those books and the way the article was worded it made it sound like they were brand new books that the school just decided to dump.
Unless this was a very small paper, reporters don't write their own headlines nor edit their own stories.
This is what always bugged me, as a person who works/worked in this industry...the reporters and photographers are visible so they get all the grief for decisions that weren't theirs. I don't know a single journalist who hasn't had a "discussion" with numerous editors after a photo is cropped or an article is edited in just a way to shift the meaning or tone. But the public doesn't see that so it becomes the journalist's fault.
posted by girlmightlive at 4:04 AM on August 31, 2018 [9 favorites]
Unless this was a very small paper, reporters don't write their own headlines nor edit their own stories.
This is what always bugged me, as a person who works/worked in this industry...the reporters and photographers are visible so they get all the grief for decisions that weren't theirs. I don't know a single journalist who hasn't had a "discussion" with numerous editors after a photo is cropped or an article is edited in just a way to shift the meaning or tone. But the public doesn't see that so it becomes the journalist's fault.
posted by girlmightlive at 4:04 AM on August 31, 2018 [9 favorites]
Teens who grew up with this legacy, it really is astonishing they don't trust the media more!
You'd think allegedly media savvy teens then might show some equal concern over getting their views from Twitter and instagram feeds considering the results of the presidential election. Sounds mostly like they're relying on journalists to report news, which they then ignore from the source and respond to reactions at a remove when some particularly juicy response goes viral. That hardly strikes me as a better or even especially truthful method of looking at the news.
The news media is a huge thing and as with any group there are shitty individuals in it and incompetent results at times, but dismissing it all as therefore unworthy of attention is no improvement and leaves people no better off. "Trust" needn't be a measure of complete moral agreement or absolute purity, it can be something more general that one might place in any other group of people. The expectation that most will try to do their jobs and live their lives as best they can, some won't care much one way or the other, and some will actively seek to exploit their situations. Trust but verify is the cliche and that is pretty much the best path I know of, don't rely on any one source or group of buddies but read widely and think carefully about what you read. You'll still get fooled sometimes perhaps or not get the whole picture, but that's par for the course really. Nothing is foolproof after all.
posted by gusottertrout at 4:40 AM on August 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
You'd think allegedly media savvy teens then might show some equal concern over getting their views from Twitter and instagram feeds considering the results of the presidential election. Sounds mostly like they're relying on journalists to report news, which they then ignore from the source and respond to reactions at a remove when some particularly juicy response goes viral. That hardly strikes me as a better or even especially truthful method of looking at the news.
The news media is a huge thing and as with any group there are shitty individuals in it and incompetent results at times, but dismissing it all as therefore unworthy of attention is no improvement and leaves people no better off. "Trust" needn't be a measure of complete moral agreement or absolute purity, it can be something more general that one might place in any other group of people. The expectation that most will try to do their jobs and live their lives as best they can, some won't care much one way or the other, and some will actively seek to exploit their situations. Trust but verify is the cliche and that is pretty much the best path I know of, don't rely on any one source or group of buddies but read widely and think carefully about what you read. You'll still get fooled sometimes perhaps or not get the whole picture, but that's par for the course really. Nothing is foolproof after all.
posted by gusottertrout at 4:40 AM on August 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
Hell, I’m 46 an I trust the news a lot less. I had to stop listening to NPR because of all the false equivalency and airtime they give to truly evil opinions. But the Iraq war did a lot to undermine my perception, too. If kids have got the message that they have to curate their own feeds, that’s probably a good thing. Fake news is real, Trump’s just lying about the sources of it.
posted by rikschell at 4:41 AM on August 31, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 4:41 AM on August 31, 2018 [13 favorites]
I had to stop listening to NPR because of all the false equivalency and airtime they give to truly evil opinions.
They've gotten a bit more aggressive about things, with a lot more direct response and work to do reporting on why A Thing is bad instead of trying to say "well, there were good people on both sides" and providing only opinionators to be The News. Honestly, the last 6 months have been much much better in saying "this is why this Was Bad, here's the evidence, this isn't opinion".
posted by hippybear at 4:48 AM on August 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
They've gotten a bit more aggressive about things, with a lot more direct response and work to do reporting on why A Thing is bad instead of trying to say "well, there were good people on both sides" and providing only opinionators to be The News. Honestly, the last 6 months have been much much better in saying "this is why this Was Bad, here's the evidence, this isn't opinion".
posted by hippybear at 4:48 AM on August 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
No. The normalization of ethno-statist rhetoric is precisely relevant to charges of antisemitism, because it is that normalization that allows the violent rhetoric of racism to become the violent action of ethnic cleansing.
posted by Chrischris at 4:49 AM on August 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Chrischris at 4:49 AM on August 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
The Creel Commission was set up by President Wilson to manufacture support for WWI at a time when the country did not want to go to war; Wilson had won the election campaigning on an anti-war platform. Back then we had honest-to-god socialists in government and the media; a socialist weekly (Appeal To Reason) had the fourth-highest circulation in the country. Most newspapers were locally-owned and most news locally-produced. The socialists were anti-war and Wilson needed to get them promoting the war so the Creel Commission began to dismantle the news media in several ways. One was to use the newly-passed Espionage and Sedition Acts to bully local newspapers into silence or permanant shutdown. In the vacuum created by that absence, newspapers owned by pro-war national interests took over, and this began the process of corporate takeover of the news media. The Creel Commission created heavily-biased and outright false news stories that newspapers happily ran in support of the war; it used various modes of persuasion to bully, buy out or cajole war critics into supporting the war. Truly outspoken critics (like Eugene Debs) were jailed. By the time the war was over, the government had created the world's most efficient propoganda machine and when the war was over they didn't stop their work. Some, like Creel himself, went on to help manufacture the Red Scare, Others, like Edward Bernays, took everything he'd learned selling war to Madison Avenue so that big corporations could use the techniques to sell people a bunch of crap they didn't need. And the major news media pretty much never returned to the older, more diverse and more robust pre-war practices.
All of that began in 1917, 30 years before President Trump was born.
The most recent war, the one we are still in, which is the longest-lasting war in US history, was dutitifully supported by the news media, who all parroted the Bush administration's lies about Iraq being possession of chemical and nuclear weapons of mass destruction. That happened 15 years ago, before most teenagers were born or old enough to understand.
Trump is an easy scapegoat for the news media, because he's a compulsive liar and a wanna-be dictator who is definitely using fascist propoganda techniques, but Trump wouldn't be possible without the decades of complicity, negligence and abdication of the traditional news media alongside the idiotification of communication social media has brought us. They'd like to blame him so we don't focus on their complicity.
posted by eustacescrubb at 4:53 AM on August 31, 2018 [41 favorites]
All of that began in 1917, 30 years before President Trump was born.
The most recent war, the one we are still in, which is the longest-lasting war in US history, was dutitifully supported by the news media, who all parroted the Bush administration's lies about Iraq being possession of chemical and nuclear weapons of mass destruction. That happened 15 years ago, before most teenagers were born or old enough to understand.
Trump is an easy scapegoat for the news media, because he's a compulsive liar and a wanna-be dictator who is definitely using fascist propoganda techniques, but Trump wouldn't be possible without the decades of complicity, negligence and abdication of the traditional news media alongside the idiotification of communication social media has brought us. They'd like to blame him so we don't focus on their complicity.
posted by eustacescrubb at 4:53 AM on August 31, 2018 [41 favorites]
They'd like to blame him so we don't focus on their complicity.
It is literally possible to blame Trump for the amplification of this message to the point where it is going to possibly destroy the Fourth Estate if it continues on this path while also acknowledging that the media in general is to blame for the message which Trump amplified.
I do not necessarily equate the media with the Fourth Estate, even while one has to live within the other even while striving for more noble ambitions than what the other and its associated pressures might want from one.
posted by hippybear at 4:59 AM on August 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
It is literally possible to blame Trump for the amplification of this message to the point where it is going to possibly destroy the Fourth Estate if it continues on this path while also acknowledging that the media in general is to blame for the message which Trump amplified.
I do not necessarily equate the media with the Fourth Estate, even while one has to live within the other even while striving for more noble ambitions than what the other and its associated pressures might want from one.
posted by hippybear at 4:59 AM on August 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
The other day I overheard a conversation between some kids in their late teens who were messing with an adult by saying the earth was flat and that "everything else is a lie so you can't prove it's not." I got the impression that they were playing on this alarm adults have and messing with them, it was great, actually.
Unless you know those kids well, there is every chance that they were dead serious. One of the flabdablet cousins is currently an ardent and absolutely committed neo-flat-earther; it's consumed her life to the point where she's proselytising it like it was Scientology.
posted by flabdablet at 5:06 AM on August 31, 2018 [4 favorites]
Unless you know those kids well, there is every chance that they were dead serious. One of the flabdablet cousins is currently an ardent and absolutely committed neo-flat-earther; it's consumed her life to the point where she's proselytising it like it was Scientology.
posted by flabdablet at 5:06 AM on August 31, 2018 [4 favorites]
I don't disagree that Trump has helped make things worse, hippybear; I just think we'd be seeing the same or close to the same levels of distrust of news media with or without him, because he's a symptom, not the cause, of the problem.
posted by eustacescrubb at 5:06 AM on August 31, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by eustacescrubb at 5:06 AM on August 31, 2018 [6 favorites]
“I don’t believe there [are] any neutral news organizations,” said Emma Neely, a 19-year-old in Tennessee. “Each writer and editor has their own personal bias. What they write, even if it’s a little biased, it’s still biased.”I am not in the least surprised that such opinions are common in a country that lacks a respectable public broadcaster powerful enough for commercial broadcasters to take it seriously as a threat to their revenue streams.
Angie, a 16-year-old in New York, agreed. She contends that Trump’s comments have revealed to people that the news media cannot be trusted. “I think this whole phenomenon has given teens awareness that bias exists and things are not what they seem,” she said.
posted by flabdablet at 5:22 AM on August 31, 2018 [4 favorites]
Trump didn't create distrust of news media, because he's never created anything--he just takes something somebody else created and makes a shittier version (see also presidential administrations, presidential campaigns, for-profit colleges, beauty pageants, reality television shows, hack-y business books, professional football leagues, casino destinations, airlines, skyscrapers, his father's fortune, etc.)
And while I don't give him credit for much, I will absolutely give him credit for making distrust of news media (though I'd frame it as a decline in information and media literacy) much, much worse.
posted by box at 5:26 AM on August 31, 2018 [6 favorites]
And while I don't give him credit for much, I will absolutely give him credit for making distrust of news media (though I'd frame it as a decline in information and media literacy) much, much worse.
posted by box at 5:26 AM on August 31, 2018 [6 favorites]
No mention that the FCC removed the fairness doctrine for broadcasters in 1987 or that the Telecommunications Act of 1996 enabled cross media ownership and monopolies. Fox News, AM talk radio and Sinclair Broadcast Group would't have happened without changes to regulation.
posted by Julianna Mckannis at 5:29 AM on August 31, 2018 [24 favorites]
posted by Julianna Mckannis at 5:29 AM on August 31, 2018 [24 favorites]
They seem to be basing their argument on a single 2017 study and some interviews, without establishing a baseline. (emph mine)
This from Dysk should be the beginning and end of any conversation about this particular Atlantic article. You can't have a conversation about how Trump has affected a given thing without establishing what it looked like pre-Trump. The article is worse than noise.
The Atlantic, of course, is where this particular early 30s American's generic mistrust of journalists as exhibiting competence or having any expectations of professionalism places upon them.
posted by PMdixon at 5:38 AM on August 31, 2018 [9 favorites]
This from Dysk should be the beginning and end of any conversation about this particular Atlantic article. You can't have a conversation about how Trump has affected a given thing without establishing what it looked like pre-Trump. The article is worse than noise.
The Atlantic, of course, is where this particular early 30s American's generic mistrust of journalists as exhibiting competence or having any expectations of professionalism places upon them.
posted by PMdixon at 5:38 AM on August 31, 2018 [9 favorites]
this whole phenomenon has given teens awareness that bias exists and things are not what they seem
At what age do they learn that being unbiased and being trustworthy are not the same thing?
posted by sfenders at 5:46 AM on August 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
At what age do they learn that being unbiased and being trustworthy are not the same thing?
posted by sfenders at 5:46 AM on August 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
At what age do they learn that being unbiased and being trustworthy are not the same thing?
A) Not until they take a statistics class in university.
B) Some time after the age at which they become writers for the Atlantic.
C) When they discover a magic 8-ball in grandpa's attic and it leads them astray.
D) Fake news! The whole question is biased and unpatriotic.
posted by sfenders at 5:55 AM on August 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
A) Not until they take a statistics class in university.
B) Some time after the age at which they become writers for the Atlantic.
C) When they discover a magic 8-ball in grandpa's attic and it leads them astray.
D) Fake news! The whole question is biased and unpatriotic.
posted by sfenders at 5:55 AM on August 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
Mod note: Couple comments deleted. Let's take a step back from the Corbyn discussion, guys.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane (staff) at 6:01 AM on August 31, 2018
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane (staff) at 6:01 AM on August 31, 2018
Here Are the Real World Consequences of Trump's Crusade Against the Media
posted by TedW at 6:15 AM on August 31, 2018
posted by TedW at 6:15 AM on August 31, 2018
RMEMBER THE MAINE, TO HELL WITH SPAIN!
posted by Grandysaur at 6:48 AM on August 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Grandysaur at 6:48 AM on August 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
The discussion in this thread seems to confuse journalists as individuals struggling to stay alive with journalism as an institution. I'm sure most journalists are good people, but Journalism as an institution has been thoroughly corrupted by the need to generate profits, and there is no trust to be given there. It's quite clear that ethical action is impossible in a world where the only thing that counts is profit; that's part of the plan.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 6:49 AM on August 31, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 6:49 AM on August 31, 2018 [8 favorites]
I lost trust in the media long before Trump. I had my eyes opened forcefully when I saw the spin the local news made on an ATF "raid" on a friends house. It was really a standard ATF followup on a mandatory hospital report of gunpowder residue. My friends father made perfectly legal fireworks, had less than the legal amount of gunpowder at home and just had a stupid small accident that just resulted in a burn he thought should be looked at. But according to the news, his garage was full of explosives and he was a danger to his kids and his neighborhood. There were never any charges, no one but my friends dad had ever been hurt. He was a sweet guy who would never hurt anybody but omg the frenzy. My friend and her family had to move after that. This was all pre 9/11 so even that wasn't an excuse. It isn't the only story I know like that but it was the one that almost ruined the lives of innocent people that I knew personally.
posted by ReiFlinx at 7:37 AM on August 31, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by ReiFlinx at 7:37 AM on August 31, 2018 [7 favorites]
Some of my students were getting their pre-election news from Project Veritas apparently. So, not trusting the news does not necessarily mean they are getting information from more accurate sources.
posted by wittgenstein at 7:40 AM on August 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by wittgenstein at 7:40 AM on August 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
See also: every protest or picket line I have ever personally attended; every single one peaceful until the cops moved in to break them up and started physically dragging protesters away; every single one described by newspapers and TV news as a "violent clash".
Sensation sells, and the media serve the media.
posted by flabdablet at 7:45 AM on August 31, 2018 [9 favorites]
Sensation sells, and the media serve the media.
posted by flabdablet at 7:45 AM on August 31, 2018 [9 favorites]
None of which is to say that anything Trump has ever said about "fake news" is any more reliable than anything else that's ever dribbled out of that anus he keeps between his nose and his excuse for a chin.
posted by flabdablet at 7:47 AM on August 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 7:47 AM on August 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
Noam Chomsky did it better.
posted by Revvy at 7:53 AM on August 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Revvy at 7:53 AM on August 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle,” or so thought Thomas Jefferson. I’m sure his Democratic-Republicans felt there was a vast Federalist conspiracy, aided and abetted by the muckraking press of the day.
posted by sudogeek at 8:15 AM on August 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by sudogeek at 8:15 AM on August 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
Newspaper said X, but Johnny on Facebook said his aunt heard her neighbour say Y, so I'm not so sure.
posted by farlukar at 1:02 PM on August 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by farlukar at 1:02 PM on August 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
An article that seems relevant from the British perspective: Alan Rusbridger: who broke the news?
In short: Declining professional standards in favour of more profitable "churnalism", which increased readership despite decreasing trust.
I think it's been clear for many years that maximising revenue while minimising costs has created a race to the bottom in terms of quality. This and the rise of social media has put "mainstream media" into competition with random people on the internet who are happy to provide rubbish for free.
posted by swr at 2:03 PM on August 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
In short: Declining professional standards in favour of more profitable "churnalism", which increased readership despite decreasing trust.
I think it's been clear for many years that maximising revenue while minimising costs has created a race to the bottom in terms of quality. This and the rise of social media has put "mainstream media" into competition with random people on the internet who are happy to provide rubbish for free.
posted by swr at 2:03 PM on August 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
My friend and her family had to move after that.
So, there were no charges and a dumb news report. Why would they have to move?
posted by D.C. at 2:20 PM on August 31, 2018
So, there were no charges and a dumb news report. Why would they have to move?
posted by D.C. at 2:20 PM on August 31, 2018
"This is what always bugged me, as a person who works/worked in this industry...the reporters and photographers are visible so they get all the grief for decisions that weren't theirs. "
Since the article focused only on the books- something that had nothing to do with what the journalist claimed to be there for it's assumed that he knew exactly what he was doing. However, it is good to know that it is not always the blame of the actual reporters and rather the editors. Though I'm sure there are plenty of disillusioned reporters who left the field due to these editors; In either case trust in the mainstream media in general is questioned due to a history of such actions.
posted by fantasticness at 8:26 PM on August 31, 2018
Since the article focused only on the books- something that had nothing to do with what the journalist claimed to be there for it's assumed that he knew exactly what he was doing. However, it is good to know that it is not always the blame of the actual reporters and rather the editors. Though I'm sure there are plenty of disillusioned reporters who left the field due to these editors; In either case trust in the mainstream media in general is questioned due to a history of such actions.
posted by fantasticness at 8:26 PM on August 31, 2018
So, there were no charges and a dumb news report. Why would they have to move?
Was
posted by zamboni at 8:40 PM on August 31, 2018
Was
omg the frenzyunclear?
posted by zamboni at 8:40 PM on August 31, 2018
The kids they quote say things like "Each writer and editor has their own personal bias. What they write, even if it’s a little biased, it’s still biased," but seem to understand that Trump's tweets are as a rule laughably bad ("The younger internet, we all understand it’s irresponsible of [Trump to tweet]").
This combination of understanding the existence of bias, understanding that there are different degrees of bias, and being will to clearly state that some people are repeat offenders undeserving of respect, doesn't make me worry about the news. It makes me eager to see them take it over.
(Also, as long as I'm quoting the kids: "MetaFilter: It's like, whatever.")
posted by mark k at 9:51 PM on August 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
This combination of understanding the existence of bias, understanding that there are different degrees of bias, and being will to clearly state that some people are repeat offenders undeserving of respect, doesn't make me worry about the news. It makes me eager to see them take it over.
(Also, as long as I'm quoting the kids: "MetaFilter: It's like, whatever.")
posted by mark k at 9:51 PM on August 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
An article that seems relevant from the British perspective: Alan Rusbridger: who broke the news?
In short: Declining professional standards in favour of more profitable "churnalism", which increased readership despite decreasing trust.
In shorter: Murdoch.
posted by flabdablet at 6:22 AM on September 1, 2018
In short: Declining professional standards in favour of more profitable "churnalism", which increased readership despite decreasing trust.
In shorter: Murdoch.
posted by flabdablet at 6:22 AM on September 1, 2018
This "debate" bothers me because:
"not trusting the news does not necessarily mean they are getting information from more accurate sources"
Traditional news media has gotten worse, but it's not been replaced with anything better. Instead we have more and more infotainment, hot takes, and moronic conspiracy theory posing as research.
All the calls for canceling your subscription in the election threads freak me out, because even the quite shitty NYT still has reporters and funds and editors who actually fact-check.
Vox and Vice News (for two alliterative examples) attempt to get at the substance of stories, but often sacrifice fact-checking for slick production values.
I am also old enough to remember where both of them come from, which makes both a little suspect.
posted by aspersioncast at 6:25 AM on September 1, 2018 [6 favorites]
"not trusting the news does not necessarily mean they are getting information from more accurate sources"
Traditional news media has gotten worse, but it's not been replaced with anything better. Instead we have more and more infotainment, hot takes, and moronic conspiracy theory posing as research.
All the calls for canceling your subscription in the election threads freak me out, because even the quite shitty NYT still has reporters and funds and editors who actually fact-check.
Vox and Vice News (for two alliterative examples) attempt to get at the substance of stories, but often sacrifice fact-checking for slick production values.
I am also old enough to remember where both of them come from, which makes both a little suspect.
posted by aspersioncast at 6:25 AM on September 1, 2018 [6 favorites]
I went to journalism school and I still don’t understand why anyone thinks the news is supposed to be unbiased. Who is unbiased? It’s impossible. We as the public are supposed to be discerning enough to understand bias but geez, I went to j-school 10 years ago and that seems laughable now.
posted by notheotherone at 1:36 AM on September 2, 2018
posted by notheotherone at 1:36 AM on September 2, 2018
When the web was first around I think there was a lot of discussion about how it could and should change news, which is today udnerstandably overshadowed by discussions on how it changes revenues accruing to the news media.
But the big newspapers need to grapple with this. Beat sweeteners, for example, are a time honored tradition that wouldn't hurt the credibility that much--you'd do a nice fluff article about some figure, fill some copy, and readers would forget about it because they could only see it if they went to the back shelves of the library basement. Now bloggers call them out and these credibility-damaging pieces probably get more attention than a lot of valuable-but-mundane reporting.
I still don’t understand why anyone thinks the news is supposed to be unbiased
NPR thinks it should transcend bias. Stars get a bit defensive when it's implied otherwise.
posted by mark k at 7:35 PM on September 3, 2018
But the big newspapers need to grapple with this. Beat sweeteners, for example, are a time honored tradition that wouldn't hurt the credibility that much--you'd do a nice fluff article about some figure, fill some copy, and readers would forget about it because they could only see it if they went to the back shelves of the library basement. Now bloggers call them out and these credibility-damaging pieces probably get more attention than a lot of valuable-but-mundane reporting.
I still don’t understand why anyone thinks the news is supposed to be unbiased
NPR thinks it should transcend bias. Stars get a bit defensive when it's implied otherwise.
posted by mark k at 7:35 PM on September 3, 2018
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posted by mwhybark at 10:51 PM on August 30, 2018 [32 favorites]