He that Spies is the one that Kills
September 5, 2018 5:09 AM Subscribe
How Israel Spies on US Citizens( The Nation)
A never-shown Al Jazeera documentary on the pro-Israel lobby in the United States reveals possibly illegal Israeli spying on American citizens, and the lobby’s fear of a changing political mood.
– so why won't they air it? (Independent)
THIS IS NOT AN I/P THREAD
– so why won't they air it? (Independent)
THIS IS NOT AN I/P THREAD
israeli-american unabashed zionist here. the rightward shift of my home country over the past few decades has been so dispiriting. i mean, all countries spy on each other, including allies, and managing propaganda is obviously part of the game. but more fundamentally, israel got along fine for decades under *true* existential threats like the 73 war, while being run by left wing (by today's standards), speak softly but carry a big stick governments. now though, it's top heavy with ultra orthodox and settler-friendly parties, filled with foreign brainwashed transplants (many messianic americans in fact), and it's all about aggression, nationalism, and faux toughness for its own sake.
i used to get viscerally offended when people said israel and apartheid in the same sentence, but now it's becoming harder to muster much of a defense.
what happened to the country of my youth? the fierce desire for equality, the secularism, the underdog spirit, the smiling in the face of adversity playing matkot on the beach, the enshrining of arabic and hebrew together, the intellectualism.. all fading into some grim simulacrum of what it was. the deeply corrupt netanyahu showing us nothing more than what trump would look like if he wasnt a fucking moron.
israel is a microcosm of a fear-based authoritarian trend that is sweeping countries worldwide. so on one hand i could respond to a story like this and whatabout it by asking why we're not focusing on the bad acts of others. but that would be a cop out. we are failing to live up to our moral obligations, full stop.
posted by wibari at 6:25 AM on September 5, 2018 [77 favorites]
i used to get viscerally offended when people said israel and apartheid in the same sentence, but now it's becoming harder to muster much of a defense.
what happened to the country of my youth? the fierce desire for equality, the secularism, the underdog spirit, the smiling in the face of adversity playing matkot on the beach, the enshrining of arabic and hebrew together, the intellectualism.. all fading into some grim simulacrum of what it was. the deeply corrupt netanyahu showing us nothing more than what trump would look like if he wasnt a fucking moron.
israel is a microcosm of a fear-based authoritarian trend that is sweeping countries worldwide. so on one hand i could respond to a story like this and whatabout it by asking why we're not focusing on the bad acts of others. but that would be a cop out. we are failing to live up to our moral obligations, full stop.
posted by wibari at 6:25 AM on September 5, 2018 [77 favorites]
It's no coincidence that Sasha Baron Cohen could get that far infiltrating america's right wing using a cartoon of an Israeli.
posted by eustatic at 6:31 AM on September 5, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by eustatic at 6:31 AM on September 5, 2018 [10 favorites]
possibly illegal ... spying on ... citizens
Isn't any form of spying "illegal" from the perspective of the country being spied upon?
Except when it's your own citizens - although depending on your legal frameworks it may/may not be illegal - which as we see can change dramatically over the course of a single generation or less...
posted by jkaczor at 7:36 AM on September 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
Isn't any form of spying "illegal" from the perspective of the country being spied upon?
Except when it's your own citizens - although depending on your legal frameworks it may/may not be illegal - which as we see can change dramatically over the course of a single generation or less...
posted by jkaczor at 7:36 AM on September 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
I assume any rational country spies on all the others. Information is the basis of intelligent decision-making. Better this than to take action based on "things you know what ain't so."
posted by SPrintF at 7:57 AM on September 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 7:57 AM on September 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
Information is the basis of intelligent decision-making.
It is also the basis of effective disinformation campaigns, assassination, lobbying, and targeting individuals to be discredited because they hold adverse opinions.
Spying is inherently unjust towards the people being spied upon because it creates asymmetrical information disparities that are never intended to be known, much less ameliorated. It is only just for you to know something about me if I am allowed to know the same thing about you.
posted by turntraitor at 8:04 AM on September 5, 2018 [5 favorites]
It is also the basis of effective disinformation campaigns, assassination, lobbying, and targeting individuals to be discredited because they hold adverse opinions.
Spying is inherently unjust towards the people being spied upon because it creates asymmetrical information disparities that are never intended to be known, much less ameliorated. It is only just for you to know something about me if I am allowed to know the same thing about you.
posted by turntraitor at 8:04 AM on September 5, 2018 [5 favorites]
I for one found it pretty disturbing that they are keeping databases of college students who express any public support for BDS and using those to prevent these people from getting jobs. That seems like a disturbing amount of power for another country's government to have over a US citizen.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 10:06 AM on September 5, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by Kitty Stardust at 10:06 AM on September 5, 2018 [15 favorites]
There doesn't seem to be much much of a smoking gun linking Canary Mission to the Israeli state intelligence apparatus; they seem to be gathering their information from open sources in the US. (Though in fairness, a lot of state intelligence is really just combing through open sources, too, these days.) I'm somewhat curious if they receive funding from the Israeli government and if that means they have to register as a foreign agent, but maybe not if they aren't engaged in lobbying directly (the rules seem really byzantine; I made a halfassed attempt at trying to understand it and gave up).
At any rate, I'm not sure what the solution would be there — everyone seems to applaud when it's alt-right assholes who are being doxed, and their employers pressured into firing them; Canary Mission is doing the exact same sort of thing. If that's an illegitimate tactic (which is a fair stance to take; I think in other countries' political systems it would be illegal) then the rules should be consistent no matter who's doing the stalk-dox-harass routine. Otherwise it's just a whose-ox-is-being-gored dispute.
That aside, Canary Mission seems like a pretty bizarrely outsize response to BDS, which doesn't seem to be particularly effective. (Intel seems unlikely to pull out its multibillion-dollar fabrication operations; BDS target SodaStream just got bought by PepsiCo for $3.2B USD, etc.; some college endowment funds are small potatoes.) It's weird that Canary Mission is so focused on it; it creates the impression that BDS is more hard-hitting than I think the evidence suggests. Somebody must have a real bone to pick, I guess.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:06 PM on September 5, 2018
At any rate, I'm not sure what the solution would be there — everyone seems to applaud when it's alt-right assholes who are being doxed, and their employers pressured into firing them; Canary Mission is doing the exact same sort of thing. If that's an illegitimate tactic (which is a fair stance to take; I think in other countries' political systems it would be illegal) then the rules should be consistent no matter who's doing the stalk-dox-harass routine. Otherwise it's just a whose-ox-is-being-gored dispute.
That aside, Canary Mission seems like a pretty bizarrely outsize response to BDS, which doesn't seem to be particularly effective. (Intel seems unlikely to pull out its multibillion-dollar fabrication operations; BDS target SodaStream just got bought by PepsiCo for $3.2B USD, etc.; some college endowment funds are small potatoes.) It's weird that Canary Mission is so focused on it; it creates the impression that BDS is more hard-hitting than I think the evidence suggests. Somebody must have a real bone to pick, I guess.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:06 PM on September 5, 2018
What would their attentions look like, from the perspective of the person they were interested in?
posted by Baeria at 12:58 PM on September 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Baeria at 12:58 PM on September 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
Skype.
posted by Docrailgun at 5:47 PM on September 5, 2018
posted by Docrailgun at 5:47 PM on September 5, 2018
Isn't any form of spying "illegal" from the perspective of the country being spied upon?
No. That's why we have Five-Eyes - so like minded governments can spy on each other's citizens for each other. Then each member can say "we don't surveil our citizens".
posted by pompomtom at 10:05 PM on September 5, 2018 [4 favorites]
No. That's why we have Five-Eyes - so like minded governments can spy on each other's citizens for each other. Then each member can say "we don't surveil our citizens".
posted by pompomtom at 10:05 PM on September 5, 2018 [4 favorites]
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And not for nothing, but “Qatari government squashes documentary for diplomatic purposes” or “Saudis demand documentary on Israeli influence in America die” are both, um, less sensationalist takes on the whole thing than “why can’t I watch this documentary ABOUT ISRAEL.”
posted by schadenfrau at 6:06 AM on September 5, 2018 [7 favorites]