Why yes, I AM happy to see you
September 8, 2018 9:22 AM Subscribe
With the dangers of cycling in Toronto in the news, some are turning to an unconventional safety measure.
So, I've seen this before, and wondered -- what would happen if a car actually hit the noodle? I know the theory is they're flexible and they bend out of the way, but they're not *that* flexible and they don't bend all that well -- could the cyclist get knocked over by the impact?
posted by jacquilynne at 9:44 AM on September 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 9:44 AM on September 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
There's a dude here who's been riding around with a full car bumper strapped to the front of his bike for over a decade.
Personally, I get just as freaked out by the cars that hover juuuuust behind me for three blocks waiting for a break in oncoming traffic so they can occupy the entire oncoming lane as they floor it and rocket by me. I purposefully ride on streets that are wide enough that this isn't necessary, going quite out of my way to do so. It feels kind of passive aggressive like, "LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO". Just leave me a reasonable amount of space and go about your business. It isn't rocket science, you don't have to dangerously break like five laws to share the road with a cyclist.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:54 AM on September 8, 2018 [26 favorites]
Personally, I get just as freaked out by the cars that hover juuuuust behind me for three blocks waiting for a break in oncoming traffic so they can occupy the entire oncoming lane as they floor it and rocket by me. I purposefully ride on streets that are wide enough that this isn't necessary, going quite out of my way to do so. It feels kind of passive aggressive like, "LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO". Just leave me a reasonable amount of space and go about your business. It isn't rocket science, you don't have to dangerously break like five laws to share the road with a cyclist.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:54 AM on September 8, 2018 [26 favorites]
Personally, I get just as freaked out by the cars that hover juuuuust behind me for three blocks waiting for a break in oncoming traffic so they can occupy the entire oncoming lane as they floor it and rocket by me.
I mean, I can totally understand the desire to quickly get away from such a fragile little thing as a cyclist when driving a several thousand pound death machine. It's like having to share a narrow staircase with a kitten -- you just want it to be as far away from you as possible, because one wrong move and it's sure to be game over for the kitten. and no one wants to be responsible for crushing a kitten.
posted by some loser at 10:03 AM on September 8, 2018 [29 favorites]
I mean, I can totally understand the desire to quickly get away from such a fragile little thing as a cyclist when driving a several thousand pound death machine. It's like having to share a narrow staircase with a kitten -- you just want it to be as far away from you as possible, because one wrong move and it's sure to be game over for the kitten. and no one wants to be responsible for crushing a kitten.
posted by some loser at 10:03 AM on September 8, 2018 [29 favorites]
Aaaaaand the very first comment on that BlogTO article is "Cyclists are the scourge of toronto streets. The sooner they are banned off city streets, the safer it will be for everyone." Fortunately for this angry driver, Toronto will soon be so congested nobody utilizing any form of transportation will be able to move at all, rendering the streets paradoxically very safe indeed.
I bike to work here in Toronto; it takes me about 20-25 minutes each way and I never relax for a second because the cycling infrastructure is pathetic and the safest frame of mind is to assume that everyone else on the road (cyclists and pedestrians, too) is actively trying to kill you. I *knock on wood* haven't had any serious accidents, but I have had some close calls. I was cut off by a driver turning right (the most common cause of cycling death recently) onto Gerrard from Sherbourne a couple of months ago and had to hop off my bike (both I and the bike were fine) and my wife was almost doored on Queen St. last spring. In May a man was killed about a block away from where I begin my commute. Pool noodles and other stopgap measures are all well and good, but this problem will not improve in my lifetime because car culture (as embodied by Rob "War On The Car" Ford) is too entrenched within our society and even if it wasn't Toronto is like 50 years behind where it should be in terms of transportation planning, which is why it's starting to choke on its own growth.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:21 AM on September 8, 2018 [17 favorites]
I bike to work here in Toronto; it takes me about 20-25 minutes each way and I never relax for a second because the cycling infrastructure is pathetic and the safest frame of mind is to assume that everyone else on the road (cyclists and pedestrians, too) is actively trying to kill you. I *knock on wood* haven't had any serious accidents, but I have had some close calls. I was cut off by a driver turning right (the most common cause of cycling death recently) onto Gerrard from Sherbourne a couple of months ago and had to hop off my bike (both I and the bike were fine) and my wife was almost doored on Queen St. last spring. In May a man was killed about a block away from where I begin my commute. Pool noodles and other stopgap measures are all well and good, but this problem will not improve in my lifetime because car culture (as embodied by Rob "War On The Car" Ford) is too entrenched within our society and even if it wasn't Toronto is like 50 years behind where it should be in terms of transportation planning, which is why it's starting to choke on its own growth.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:21 AM on September 8, 2018 [17 favorites]
I appreciate, greatly, the idea of a visual indicator - it seems like most people have absolutely no idea how wide their car is and how much space they're legally required to leave between their car and the cyclist (or they don't know how to calculate that space while attempting to pass). As a result people either do the weird hover-behind that soren_lorensen mentioned, swerve too far into the oncoming lane, or get far, far too close to the cyclist. I also wonder what happens when someone hits the noodle (or whatever other item is put on the bike) - ugh.
That said - my dream is protected bike lanes, everywhere. I don't live in Toronto and I still have a very hard time not freaking out any time I'm forced to 'share' a road locally. As a result, I don't ride much. There are bike paths some distance from my home (requiring me to be, yep, on the road to get to them) and while those paths are great and appreciated, they don't cover the full city and all the places people would like to ride.
posted by VioletU at 10:29 AM on September 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
That said - my dream is protected bike lanes, everywhere. I don't live in Toronto and I still have a very hard time not freaking out any time I'm forced to 'share' a road locally. As a result, I don't ride much. There are bike paths some distance from my home (requiring me to be, yep, on the road to get to them) and while those paths are great and appreciated, they don't cover the full city and all the places people would like to ride.
posted by VioletU at 10:29 AM on September 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
I used to ride my bike to campus at UNC-Chapel Hill. This was 30 years ago, but CH had some well-established, clearly-marked bike lanes even then. I was riding uphilli, in the bike lane, and crossing a small side street when a woman made a right-hand turn and drove her car straight into me, knocking me over. She must have not been going very fast, because although I was very shaken and my bike was a bit mangled, I emerged with only a few scrapes and bruises. With the help of a very nice nearby onlooker I called the police, filed a report, etc. Here's the thing: the woman insisted she had right-of-way. She was absolutely, 100 percent wrong, of course, and didn’t seem to understand when I said (screamed at her): “It is wrong to see someone and run them over even if (or because) you think you have right-of-way!”
Nothing came of it: maybe she got a ticket, but beyond that it was too minor an incident for the police to pursue any further. But she could still be driving around. (Shivers)
posted by young_simba at 10:45 AM on September 8, 2018 [17 favorites]
Nothing came of it: maybe she got a ticket, but beyond that it was too minor an incident for the police to pursue any further. But she could still be driving around. (Shivers)
posted by young_simba at 10:45 AM on September 8, 2018 [17 favorites]
It's not remotely helpful that Toronto has a mayor and city council who believe that "Vision Zero" is a slogan and not a proven method of making roads safer for pedestrians and cyclists by fundamentally changing the infrastructure and design of said roads. It literally tells us what needs to change and how to go about doing it. And. It. Works.
But John Tory is just Rob Ford without the crack.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:52 AM on September 8, 2018 [9 favorites]
But John Tory is just Rob Ford without the crack.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:52 AM on September 8, 2018 [9 favorites]
I was an avid cyclist for years. Did tons of long-distance, multi-day bike rides. And then in one summer in Toronto I got hit three times. Once, doored on Sherbourne (the driver jumped out, ran around the car, and asked the passenger if he was okay while I picked myself up out of the recycling bins that broke my fall). The second time, I was rear-ended at a four-way stop (the driver, I think, did not expect me to actually stop at a stop sign). And the third time, a bike courier was arguing with a guy in a work van while they were both heading along (pre-bike-lane) Bloor. The van driver was in a rage, zipping in and out of traffic. I was trying to hang back and keep an eye on things, but the driver sped ahead and pulled over, got out of the van and tried to stop the courier, who just kept going. I was coming up, boxed in by the parking lane and traffic nowhere to go but straight. I slowed down and rang my bell. The van guy told me to fuck off and pushed me off my bike. I still have a scar from that one.
None of them were my fault. I reported all of them. The results were...not great. The dooring got nowhere at all. The guy who rear-ended me got charged with distracted driving. I went to a court date, he had hired a traffic lawyer, got it down to a lesser charge, a small fine and no points off his license. I was not asked for any information, despite having been told to come (that one seemed like the most minor, injury wise, at the time. But I still have lingering back pain from it). And, inexplicably, the guy who pushed me off the bike was never caught. Despite three witnesses, a license plate number, and his company name on the side of his van.
So I don't bike any more in Toronto. The police don't care, and even when bad drivers get caught, nothing happens.
It's not going to change until driving a car is a privilege that can be taken away. Right now, the assumption is that the worst you'll get for bad driving is a fine; asshole drivers know this, and drive like assholes because they don't mind an occasional hundred dollar fine for almost killing someone. Car culture is the worst. (And, I always feel like I should point out: I drive! I like driving! I have never hit anyone, because I drive slowly and stop when I'm supposed to!)
posted by melgy at 10:53 AM on September 8, 2018 [49 favorites]
None of them were my fault. I reported all of them. The results were...not great. The dooring got nowhere at all. The guy who rear-ended me got charged with distracted driving. I went to a court date, he had hired a traffic lawyer, got it down to a lesser charge, a small fine and no points off his license. I was not asked for any information, despite having been told to come (that one seemed like the most minor, injury wise, at the time. But I still have lingering back pain from it). And, inexplicably, the guy who pushed me off the bike was never caught. Despite three witnesses, a license plate number, and his company name on the side of his van.
So I don't bike any more in Toronto. The police don't care, and even when bad drivers get caught, nothing happens.
It's not going to change until driving a car is a privilege that can be taken away. Right now, the assumption is that the worst you'll get for bad driving is a fine; asshole drivers know this, and drive like assholes because they don't mind an occasional hundred dollar fine for almost killing someone. Car culture is the worst. (And, I always feel like I should point out: I drive! I like driving! I have never hit anyone, because I drive slowly and stop when I'm supposed to!)
posted by melgy at 10:53 AM on September 8, 2018 [49 favorites]
The police don't care, and even when bad drivers get caught, nothing happens.
The fine for killing somebody with a car in Ontario is $500. You don't even need to show up in court to pay it. The Toronto police's recover rate for theft under $5000 is on average around 23% to 25% year over year, unless the thing that was stolen was a bike, in which case it's less than 1%.
I've got a whole raft of feelings here, and with good reason.
posted by mhoye at 11:16 AM on September 8, 2018 [47 favorites]
The fine for killing somebody with a car in Ontario is $500. You don't even need to show up in court to pay it. The Toronto police's recover rate for theft under $5000 is on average around 23% to 25% year over year, unless the thing that was stolen was a bike, in which case it's less than 1%.
I've got a whole raft of feelings here, and with good reason.
posted by mhoye at 11:16 AM on September 8, 2018 [47 favorites]
Personally, I get just as freaked out by the cars that hover juuuuust behind me for three blocks waiting for a break in oncoming traffic so they can occupy the entire oncoming lane as they floor it and rocket by me.
Yeah, they make it worse. When someone like that holds up traffic all because he's unnecessarily afraid to pass me, I feel obliged to move extra far over to the curb just so the flinchy driver will pass me and not make everyone behind him resent bicyclists.
Drivers, if you're careful and you know what you're doing (and if not, please get off the road), you don't need to swing way out into the other lane just to get around a bicycle. Most lanes (especially in North America) are wide enough for your car, a bike, and plenty of safety space in between. Just swing to the left a little without cutting into the oncoming lane.
I like the tube thing as long as it is not attached too tightly. You wouldn't want it to get caught in something and have the bike and rider flipped into traffic or dragged along the street. And maybe put a back-facing camera on your bike or helmet to catch the license plates of people who try to hit it.
posted by pracowity at 11:29 AM on September 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yeah, they make it worse. When someone like that holds up traffic all because he's unnecessarily afraid to pass me, I feel obliged to move extra far over to the curb just so the flinchy driver will pass me and not make everyone behind him resent bicyclists.
Drivers, if you're careful and you know what you're doing (and if not, please get off the road), you don't need to swing way out into the other lane just to get around a bicycle. Most lanes (especially in North America) are wide enough for your car, a bike, and plenty of safety space in between. Just swing to the left a little without cutting into the oncoming lane.
I like the tube thing as long as it is not attached too tightly. You wouldn't want it to get caught in something and have the bike and rider flipped into traffic or dragged along the street. And maybe put a back-facing camera on your bike or helmet to catch the license plates of people who try to hit it.
posted by pracowity at 11:29 AM on September 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
I know the theory is they're flexible and they bend out of the way, but they're not *that* flexible and they don't bend all that well
Mostly, they're visual warnings - cars see them and are less likely to pull into a space they think of as "occupied." Since a whole lot of accidents are caused by cars not giving space while turning, or not coming to a complete stop, the risk is minimal; if the noodle is hit, the bike may get nudged by it, but it wasn't likely to be going at high speed at the time.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:06 PM on September 8, 2018
Mostly, they're visual warnings - cars see them and are less likely to pull into a space they think of as "occupied." Since a whole lot of accidents are caused by cars not giving space while turning, or not coming to a complete stop, the risk is minimal; if the noodle is hit, the bike may get nudged by it, but it wasn't likely to be going at high speed at the time.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:06 PM on September 8, 2018
Personally, I get just as freaked out by the cars that hover juuuuust behind me for three blocks waiting for a break in oncoming traffic so they can occupy the entire oncoming lane as they floor it and rocket by me.
Sorry! (I don't think I take up the entire oncoming lane, but I do take half...)
But I don't know how wide my car is, and I'd much, much rather wait until I'm really sure it's safe to pass you, rather than risk hitting you.
Addendum: When I'm cycling, I ride on the sidewalk, regardless of what my local laws might say. This is to save my ass.
posted by Quackles at 12:17 PM on September 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
Sorry! (I don't think I take up the entire oncoming lane, but I do take half...)
But I don't know how wide my car is, and I'd much, much rather wait until I'm really sure it's safe to pass you, rather than risk hitting you.
Addendum: When I'm cycling, I ride on the sidewalk, regardless of what my local laws might say. This is to save my ass.
posted by Quackles at 12:17 PM on September 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
it seems like most people have absolutely no idea how wide their car is
This is the result of modern car design. Every car I drove from getting my drivers license in 1983 up until some undetermined year in perhaps the 90s or maybe early 2000s, you could sit in the driver's seat and see the corners of the car. They were right there, they were visible!
But at some point something changed. I remember when that change started, I joked with friends about how the new cars looked like they were overinflated. It was a new style then, and so it was many years before I actually drove one, and HOLY SHIT I COULDN'T SEE THE CORNERS. I was terrified to park with anyone beside me, making turns felt like guesswork, the entire concept of "this is the size of the object I am driving" had entirely disappeared.
And it continues today. Except with specific types of vehicles, nearly every basic consumer vehicle I have driven has this problem. Camrys have this problem. Suburbans have this problem. Outback wagons have this problem. Ford pickup trucks have this problem.
It's a thing I truly hate about new vehicles. Even my stupid Hyundai Accent has that problem, and it's small enough to do a u-turn on a residential street. But I have no idea how fucking long it is behind me. Twice I've backed into things while parking (very low speed, no damage done) because there is no indication from any of my mirrors where my vehicle ends Or where the front corners begin.
goodness, okay. Got that off my chest.
I love the pool noodle idea. I'd totally take that up if I were biking around a city.
posted by hippybear at 12:41 PM on September 8, 2018 [31 favorites]
This is the result of modern car design. Every car I drove from getting my drivers license in 1983 up until some undetermined year in perhaps the 90s or maybe early 2000s, you could sit in the driver's seat and see the corners of the car. They were right there, they were visible!
But at some point something changed. I remember when that change started, I joked with friends about how the new cars looked like they were overinflated. It was a new style then, and so it was many years before I actually drove one, and HOLY SHIT I COULDN'T SEE THE CORNERS. I was terrified to park with anyone beside me, making turns felt like guesswork, the entire concept of "this is the size of the object I am driving" had entirely disappeared.
And it continues today. Except with specific types of vehicles, nearly every basic consumer vehicle I have driven has this problem. Camrys have this problem. Suburbans have this problem. Outback wagons have this problem. Ford pickup trucks have this problem.
It's a thing I truly hate about new vehicles. Even my stupid Hyundai Accent has that problem, and it's small enough to do a u-turn on a residential street. But I have no idea how fucking long it is behind me. Twice I've backed into things while parking (very low speed, no damage done) because there is no indication from any of my mirrors where my vehicle ends Or where the front corners begin.
goodness, okay. Got that off my chest.
I love the pool noodle idea. I'd totally take that up if I were biking around a city.
posted by hippybear at 12:41 PM on September 8, 2018 [31 favorites]
God, Toronto sounds horrible for cyclists. I’ve been living in Seattle from the time you could safely and quickly drive anywhere and find street parking on a Saturday night through the gradual but necessary densification and infilling brought about by Amazon et al taking over the city, where driving has just become more of a hassle than its worth. The infrastructure improvements to support a carless lifestyle here are coming painfully slower than the growth, but I’m really pleased that they include a robust bicycle plan, largely thanks to former mayor Mike McGinn who was an avid cyclist. Now, thanks to protected bike corridors and limits on street parking, in our rainy hilly sitting, you see lots of happy commuters on bikes including cargo bikes and parents taking their 2 kids to school on extended ebikes. It’s by no means Amsterdam here, but there are increasing numbers of people who visualize the future of the heart of the city looking like this.
I remember the days before and the totally aggro limits to which it would drive cyclists and motorists and it seems like I hardly ever see that anymore.
I think it takes a very vocal contingent of activist cyclists to make it happen, but dense cities are going to be just unlivable unless they get their public transportation and cycling plan together.
Let me emphasize: the weather is really shitty here, there are lots of hills, and the drivers are some of the worst in the country and we’re making it work.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 12:44 PM on September 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
I remember the days before and the totally aggro limits to which it would drive cyclists and motorists and it seems like I hardly ever see that anymore.
I think it takes a very vocal contingent of activist cyclists to make it happen, but dense cities are going to be just unlivable unless they get their public transportation and cycling plan together.
Let me emphasize: the weather is really shitty here, there are lots of hills, and the drivers are some of the worst in the country and we’re making it work.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 12:44 PM on September 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
there are lots of hills
San Francisco thinks it has hills. Oh god, Seattle's hills... Jeebus!
posted by hippybear at 1:05 PM on September 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
San Francisco thinks it has hills. Oh god, Seattle's hills... Jeebus!
posted by hippybear at 1:05 PM on September 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'd put a big paint brush on the end of mine dripping a nice blood red. Anybody hit my noodle and they will look like they killed someone.
posted by srboisvert at 1:10 PM on September 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 1:10 PM on September 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
Is this where I tell the story of getting a skull fracture in Toronto?
There's not much to tell, because I don't remember what happened.
Still got the scar though.
posted by quaking fajita at 1:16 PM on September 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
There's not much to tell, because I don't remember what happened.
Still got the scar though.
posted by quaking fajita at 1:16 PM on September 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
Personally, I get just as freaked out by the cars that hover juuuuust behind me for three blocks waiting for a break in oncoming traffic so they can occupy the entire oncoming lane as they floor it and rocket by me. I purposefully ride on streets that are wide enough that this isn't necessary, going quite out of my way to do so.
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and no one wants to be responsible for crushing a kitten.
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I'd much, much rather wait until I'm really sure it's safe to pass you, rather than risk hitting you.
Addendum: When I'm cycling, I ride on the sidewalk, regardless of what my local laws might say. This is to save my ass.
--------
Hang on while I get on my high horse here. I know that Los Angeles is not Toronto, different laws, different people, different country even, but just hear me out.
I commute by bicycle down Wilshire Blvd. nearly every day. At first I squeezed as far right as possible, cringing as cars whizzed by me way too close. They'd race by, then slam on their brakes at the next red light and I'd catch up. We would do this over and over; it didn't take me long to realize that I'm actually just as fast as vehicular traffic on average. The main difference is that car drivers desperately want to park at a red light, so they can look at their goddamn phones at the stoplight. If those same cars moved at my speed (15-18mph) down a busy street, they wouldn't ever have to stop or even slow down.
Just like me! I rarely have to come to a complete stop when I'm on my bike in traffic, simply because traffic moves on average 10-15mph below the speed limit. It's designed by traffic engineers to be probably 5-10mph below the limit, but because every driver isn't on the same page the ones that insist on speeding to the next red light slow everyone else down while they put their phones away and start paying attention again after the light switches green.
Ah, we're getting in the weeds here. Lots of contentious bs, so let me say that the first point I'm coming to is that I stopped cowering. I take the lane. It's mine, and I have as much a right to it as anyone operating a 1-ton dinosour-burning death machine no matter what speed I choose to move at. They want to go faster? Use the other lane. No other lane, and it would be dangerous to pass with oncoming traffic on the left and parked cars on the right?
Slow. The Fuck. Down. Then.
Slow down. Plan better. Know where you're going. Drive below the speed limit.
That's a huge sea change to expect from America's car culture (that includes you too, Canada!) but it's that kind of paradigm shift that is necessary for everyone to use the roads safely. No amount of safety laws or pool noodles or angry yelling and honking is going to resolve the inherent tension between motorist and cyclist without everybody changing the way they think about our shared infrastructure.
You are not entitled to going the speed limit. You must learn to share to participate in society. And you must make room—on the streets, where you live, in your heart—for those who are different. The solution to not crushing kittens is to just hang back and let the kitten finish the staircase before you start down.
Get used to it, because it's my lane too and I'm not letting you by.
it seems like most people have absolutely no idea how wide their car is
This is the result of modern car design.
I think it's called Cab Forward design. Those Chrystler cloud cars were some of the first to really go hog wild with it, and they were lauded for their new look and extra roomy passenger space.
posted by carsonb at 1:44 PM on September 8, 2018 [14 favorites]
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and no one wants to be responsible for crushing a kitten.
--------
I'd much, much rather wait until I'm really sure it's safe to pass you, rather than risk hitting you.
Addendum: When I'm cycling, I ride on the sidewalk, regardless of what my local laws might say. This is to save my ass.
--------
Hang on while I get on my high horse here. I know that Los Angeles is not Toronto, different laws, different people, different country even, but just hear me out.
I commute by bicycle down Wilshire Blvd. nearly every day. At first I squeezed as far right as possible, cringing as cars whizzed by me way too close. They'd race by, then slam on their brakes at the next red light and I'd catch up. We would do this over and over; it didn't take me long to realize that I'm actually just as fast as vehicular traffic on average. The main difference is that car drivers desperately want to park at a red light, so they can look at their goddamn phones at the stoplight. If those same cars moved at my speed (15-18mph) down a busy street, they wouldn't ever have to stop or even slow down.
Just like me! I rarely have to come to a complete stop when I'm on my bike in traffic, simply because traffic moves on average 10-15mph below the speed limit. It's designed by traffic engineers to be probably 5-10mph below the limit, but because every driver isn't on the same page the ones that insist on speeding to the next red light slow everyone else down while they put their phones away and start paying attention again after the light switches green.
Ah, we're getting in the weeds here. Lots of contentious bs, so let me say that the first point I'm coming to is that I stopped cowering. I take the lane. It's mine, and I have as much a right to it as anyone operating a 1-ton dinosour-burning death machine no matter what speed I choose to move at. They want to go faster? Use the other lane. No other lane, and it would be dangerous to pass with oncoming traffic on the left and parked cars on the right?
Slow. The Fuck. Down. Then.
Slow down. Plan better. Know where you're going. Drive below the speed limit.
That's a huge sea change to expect from America's car culture (that includes you too, Canada!) but it's that kind of paradigm shift that is necessary for everyone to use the roads safely. No amount of safety laws or pool noodles or angry yelling and honking is going to resolve the inherent tension between motorist and cyclist without everybody changing the way they think about our shared infrastructure.
You are not entitled to going the speed limit. You must learn to share to participate in society. And you must make room—on the streets, where you live, in your heart—for those who are different. The solution to not crushing kittens is to just hang back and let the kitten finish the staircase before you start down.
Get used to it, because it's my lane too and I'm not letting you by.
it seems like most people have absolutely no idea how wide their car is
This is the result of modern car design.
I think it's called Cab Forward design. Those Chrystler cloud cars were some of the first to really go hog wild with it, and they were lauded for their new look and extra roomy passenger space.
posted by carsonb at 1:44 PM on September 8, 2018 [14 favorites]
No, it's entirely not Cab Forward. It's a different design philosophy. I remember Cab Forward being introduced, but it isn't what ruined the ability for drivers to see the corners of the cars they are driving. That's something else.
posted by hippybear at 1:48 PM on September 8, 2018
posted by hippybear at 1:48 PM on September 8, 2018
It's the "mildly inconvenienced" bit that gets me. People are willing to play chicken with a person's life to save 3 seconds of travel time. How is that possible? What the fuck happens to people when they get into a car?
posted by Brocktoon at 1:52 PM on September 8, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by Brocktoon at 1:52 PM on September 8, 2018 [9 favorites]
What the fuck happens to people when they get into a car?
Internal combustion entitlement syndrome
posted by carsonb at 2:01 PM on September 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
Internal combustion entitlement syndrome
posted by carsonb at 2:01 PM on September 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
Ex bicycle rider and current motorcycle rider. I must note that a very scary and common episodic for me now is when I see a car/truck in *my* lane coming head-on because they are being "safe" and passing a bicycle in their lane.
posted by CrowGoat at 2:12 PM on September 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by CrowGoat at 2:12 PM on September 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
Ditto the experience of people swinging wide into the other lane to pass. For fks sake, I am riding down a suburban street and a vehicle will swing as widely as possible into the other lane to pass. You would think my bike has vehicular typhoid.
My city has a pretty decent riding infrastructure and people are generally courteous so I don't feel overly hassled on the streets plus I am professionally paranoid when I'm on two wheels. That swinging wide thing...gets my goat every time.
posted by diode at 2:13 PM on September 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
My city has a pretty decent riding infrastructure and people are generally courteous so I don't feel overly hassled on the streets plus I am professionally paranoid when I'm on two wheels. That swinging wide thing...gets my goat every time.
posted by diode at 2:13 PM on September 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
Goldilocks tried to pass the bike while in her own lane, but it was TOO CLOSE. Goldilocks tried to pass the bike by moving over a lane, but it was TOO FAR. Then she tried to pass the bike at exactly three feet distance, and it was JUST RIGHT.
posted by some loser at 2:22 PM on September 8, 2018
posted by some loser at 2:22 PM on September 8, 2018
Goldilocks never considered not passing the bike. Goldilocks loved burning dinosaurs and using brake pedals too much.
posted by carsonb at 2:26 PM on September 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by carsonb at 2:26 PM on September 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
cf the cyclist on the lakeshore path who had to swerve to avoid a car coming out of a side exit past their stop line, gave them a minor mouthful … then got knocked off their bike by the car further along the path as it had gone ahead and had waited for them. That's attempted murder, but the driver will get off with nothing … just like the new driver who had dropped a water bottle, reached down to get it (while speeding), crossed into the other lane and mounted the sidewalk, killing a woman and her dog.
The reason ticket issuing is down in Toronto is that they had such a backlog of unpaid tickets, it was easier to stop issuing them than try to deal with the backlog. But the Sun says there's a WAR ON CARS so there must be, right?
I would add neopixels to pool noodles, mainly because I can.
posted by scruss at 2:32 PM on September 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
The reason ticket issuing is down in Toronto is that they had such a backlog of unpaid tickets, it was easier to stop issuing them than try to deal with the backlog. But the Sun says there's a WAR ON CARS so there must be, right?
I would add neopixels to pool noodles, mainly because I can.
posted by scruss at 2:32 PM on September 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
I understand that design changes have made it harder, but there really is no excuse for not having an intuitive sense of your car’s dimensions if you’re out on the road. If you need some sort of active practice in a parking lot with traffic cones, then do it.
posted by invitapriore at 2:35 PM on September 8, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by invitapriore at 2:35 PM on September 8, 2018 [11 favorites]
Personally, I get just as freaked out by the cars that hover juuuuust behind me for three blocks waiting for a break in oncoming traffic so they can occupy the entire oncoming lane as they floor it and rocket by me.
I hate being sharked by cars like this. I always end up with the Jaws theme playing in my head while they creep along behind me. Invariably it seems there's loads of room for them to pass, and when I'm feeling nasty I slow down bit by bit by bit, though there are times I have to actually stop and put my foot down onto the ground before they'll summon the courage to pass me.
Though I've so far managed to resist the urge, I sometimes really wish I could slap the hood of their car and yell, " STOP STEAMING UP MY TAIL! What are you trying to do, wrinkle it?"
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 2:43 PM on September 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
I hate being sharked by cars like this. I always end up with the Jaws theme playing in my head while they creep along behind me. Invariably it seems there's loads of room for them to pass, and when I'm feeling nasty I slow down bit by bit by bit, though there are times I have to actually stop and put my foot down onto the ground before they'll summon the courage to pass me.
Though I've so far managed to resist the urge, I sometimes really wish I could slap the hood of their car and yell, " STOP STEAMING UP MY TAIL! What are you trying to do, wrinkle it?"
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 2:43 PM on September 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
God, Toronto sounds horrible for cyclists.
Toronto is horrible for literally every form of transportation.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:44 PM on September 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
Toronto is horrible for literally every form of transportation.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:44 PM on September 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
I live in the Netherlands. I ride a bicycle (of course I do. We all do) and I drive a car. I think the pool noodle thing is really neat but I'm also so, so happy that we don't need it here. I wish you all the exact same kind of happiness.
Cars shouldn't rule the world, or the road.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:50 PM on September 8, 2018 [17 favorites]
Cars shouldn't rule the world, or the road.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:50 PM on September 8, 2018 [17 favorites]
But at some point something changed. I remember when that change started, I joked with friends about how the new cars looked like they were overinflated.
I know someone who used to work on the big die presses they use to stamp car bodies out of sheets of metal. He once pointed out that same overinflated look to me and said it came from improvements to metal forming technology. Apparently, around the late 90s / early 2000s, there were some improved methods developed that allowed for deeper, more complex curves in car bodies. Designers took advantage of it, and now every car looks like a dang Jeff Koons sculpture.
posted by ourobouros at 2:52 PM on September 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
I know someone who used to work on the big die presses they use to stamp car bodies out of sheets of metal. He once pointed out that same overinflated look to me and said it came from improvements to metal forming technology. Apparently, around the late 90s / early 2000s, there were some improved methods developed that allowed for deeper, more complex curves in car bodies. Designers took advantage of it, and now every car looks like a dang Jeff Koons sculpture.
posted by ourobouros at 2:52 PM on September 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
To expand on my previous statement: Toronto is a picture of what happens when a large municipality is under-resourced by the regional government, and has a city council dominated by suburban councilors whose primary interest is minimizing (the already low) property tax burden of homeowners in an over-inflated real estate market.
Our road surfaces are shit, our traffic grid is saturated in rush hour, our bike lanes don't link up with each other, our signs and markings are nonsensical, our underground public transit is insufficient and out-of-date, our surface public transit has all been recalled by Bombardier, feral e-bike riders roam the sidewalks, driving really fast on city streets and then suddenly slowing down is a local sport, and we're building a one stop subway to Scarborough!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 3:10 PM on September 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
Our road surfaces are shit, our traffic grid is saturated in rush hour, our bike lanes don't link up with each other, our signs and markings are nonsensical, our underground public transit is insufficient and out-of-date, our surface public transit has all been recalled by Bombardier, feral e-bike riders roam the sidewalks, driving really fast on city streets and then suddenly slowing down is a local sport, and we're building a one stop subway to Scarborough!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 3:10 PM on September 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
But I don't know how wide my car is,
You should probably learn.
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:15 PM on September 8, 2018 [15 favorites]
You should probably learn.
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:15 PM on September 8, 2018 [15 favorites]
I live in Toronto, and this is the first summer in about 7 years that I haven't committed to work by bicycle. Drivers here really seem more entitled and terrible every year, and I just didn't feel good about gambling with my safety this year. A couple of years ago I got knocked off my bike by a hostile driver and it seems so easy to become a statistic.
posted by sevenyearlurk at 3:28 PM on September 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by sevenyearlurk at 3:28 PM on September 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
The pool noodle is a rational response to the lunacy of how bad it is for cyclists here.
Though the hard-won bike lanes are a vast improvement, they also seem a bit David in comparison to what feels like a relative Goliath increase in vehicle congestion.
posted by OlivesAndTurkishCoffee at 3:32 PM on September 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
Though the hard-won bike lanes are a vast improvement, they also seem a bit David in comparison to what feels like a relative Goliath increase in vehicle congestion.
posted by OlivesAndTurkishCoffee at 3:32 PM on September 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
Here in South Australia the law is a metre, too. And a lot of the same people who get astonishingly angry the cyclists aren't required to pay for licenses and registration also tend to be old enough to have been largely educated before decmilization, and are the same people I hear complain they can only "think in inches and feet." So, really, this would be doing them a huge favour.
posted by MarchHare at 3:36 PM on September 8, 2018
posted by MarchHare at 3:36 PM on September 8, 2018
If you can drive down the street and not clip the mirrors of parked cars, you know how wide your car is. Come on now.
Also, hey everyone please stop treating bike lanes like free parking. One of my colleagues is currently out on leave because a car parked in the bike lane and he was left with the choice to either hop the curb or go out into traffic. It did not end well.
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:32 PM on September 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
Also, hey everyone please stop treating bike lanes like free parking. One of my colleagues is currently out on leave because a car parked in the bike lane and he was left with the choice to either hop the curb or go out into traffic. It did not end well.
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:32 PM on September 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
I once had to move past a parked car on the Danforth that was literally next to an empty parking space but the driver decided stopping in the bike lane was easier. I moved around him to the right, through the empty parking space, and put my hand on his hood coming out of it to keep from tipping over. He jumped into his car and followed me for five blocks. I could tell from his face that he was screaming at the top of his lungs at me the whole way, but of course his windows were up so his attempts at communication were useless. I worry about his risks of a heart attack.
Then there was the time I was run out of a bike lane in Boston by a guy in a truck who laughed at me as I crashed onto the sidewalk. Hilarious! I almost died! He definitely had a jauntier attitude towards the whole bike thing; I'm not worried about him. Boston was where I decided a 45 minute commute by walking was worth it.
posted by transient at 5:29 PM on September 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
Then there was the time I was run out of a bike lane in Boston by a guy in a truck who laughed at me as I crashed onto the sidewalk. Hilarious! I almost died! He definitely had a jauntier attitude towards the whole bike thing; I'm not worried about him. Boston was where I decided a 45 minute commute by walking was worth it.
posted by transient at 5:29 PM on September 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
One of the real reasons why cars are so round and "inflated" looking is because the shape drastically reduces pedestrian injuries when struck by those shapes as opposed to more angular or boxy shapes. The curved hoods and bumpers distribute the force of the impact over a wider area and cause people to get plowed up into the hood, not unlike aerodynamics, which is another reason to use the same shapes.
People also need to just slow down and pay a lot more attention and do a lot less multitasking while driving. Almost everyone does it. I actually can't name any driver in my personal life that doesn't multitask way too much while driving.
If I did even half of the things most drivers do while driving while riding my bicycle people would call me a dangerous and reckless cyclist.
People also just need to drive a lot less, and to do that it takes commitment and making the active choice. For pete's sake, one of my roommates drives home from work every day to just to take a shit. That's just weird and wasteful to me and I can't even fathom it.
posted by loquacious at 5:38 PM on September 8, 2018 [10 favorites]
People also need to just slow down and pay a lot more attention and do a lot less multitasking while driving. Almost everyone does it. I actually can't name any driver in my personal life that doesn't multitask way too much while driving.
If I did even half of the things most drivers do while driving while riding my bicycle people would call me a dangerous and reckless cyclist.
People also just need to drive a lot less, and to do that it takes commitment and making the active choice. For pete's sake, one of my roommates drives home from work every day to just to take a shit. That's just weird and wasteful to me and I can't even fathom it.
posted by loquacious at 5:38 PM on September 8, 2018 [10 favorites]
Also, hey everyone please stop treating bike lanes like free parking.
A woman was just killed in NYC because one driver pulled into a bike lane and another was driving drunk. She swerved to avoid the one and was killed by the other.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:43 PM on September 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
A woman was just killed in NYC because one driver pulled into a bike lane and another was driving drunk. She swerved to avoid the one and was killed by the other.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:43 PM on September 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
And the pool noodle trick has been around for a long time now, and you're more likely to crash from startle response than anything if a car hits it.
I didn't end up needing to use it, on my recent bicycle tour I carried a carbon fiber rod I salvaged from an arrow that had a blinky tail light attached to the end, so I could stick it out to the left of my bike if I had to ride in mixed traffic in the dark. I've seen others do the same.
And, hey, non-cycling drivers? If you ever see me or another cyclist that otherwise looks experienced suddenly swerve a bit from a narrow shoulder or bike lane as you're approaching or suddenly look wobbly - there's a good chance it's intentional.
If I see someone approaching in my mirror and they're riding the shoulder or stripe too close, too fast, looking at their phone or otherwise looking like they're paying attention, I'll definitely intentionally wobble over the stripe long before they arrive to see if they react or not. I want to see brake lights checked or a definite move off the shoulder or seeing a head lock on me or some other sign they're checked in and present.
Because if not, depending on my situation I may exit the road in a hurry. I'm painfully, acutely aware of my surroundings and every moving thing larger than a cat when I'm riding my bike. I've lived my whole life on my bike without a car, worked on it as a basic courier, commuter, tourer and more. I have really good instinct about when someone's not paying attention or a threat to me, and more than a few times I've exited into the dirt shoulder to hear rumble strips getting hit well inside the stripe, or some jackass actually aiming for me or trying to throw a cup or piss bottle or something.
Eyes on the road. Not your phone. Not your sandwich. Not your coffee. Eyes on the road.
posted by loquacious at 5:49 PM on September 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
I didn't end up needing to use it, on my recent bicycle tour I carried a carbon fiber rod I salvaged from an arrow that had a blinky tail light attached to the end, so I could stick it out to the left of my bike if I had to ride in mixed traffic in the dark. I've seen others do the same.
And, hey, non-cycling drivers? If you ever see me or another cyclist that otherwise looks experienced suddenly swerve a bit from a narrow shoulder or bike lane as you're approaching or suddenly look wobbly - there's a good chance it's intentional.
If I see someone approaching in my mirror and they're riding the shoulder or stripe too close, too fast, looking at their phone or otherwise looking like they're paying attention, I'll definitely intentionally wobble over the stripe long before they arrive to see if they react or not. I want to see brake lights checked or a definite move off the shoulder or seeing a head lock on me or some other sign they're checked in and present.
Because if not, depending on my situation I may exit the road in a hurry. I'm painfully, acutely aware of my surroundings and every moving thing larger than a cat when I'm riding my bike. I've lived my whole life on my bike without a car, worked on it as a basic courier, commuter, tourer and more. I have really good instinct about when someone's not paying attention or a threat to me, and more than a few times I've exited into the dirt shoulder to hear rumble strips getting hit well inside the stripe, or some jackass actually aiming for me or trying to throw a cup or piss bottle or something.
Eyes on the road. Not your phone. Not your sandwich. Not your coffee. Eyes on the road.
posted by loquacious at 5:49 PM on September 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
Toronto can indeed be a bit tooth-gritting, especially in rush hour. And as a biker (on hiatus) I’m not blasé about the injury and fatality rates. The infrastructure is just not good enough. I’ve had close calls and accidents.
But Toronto can also be a really great city to bike in. There are ravines running at angles all through us, a bit like the tentacles of the harbour in Boston, and most of them have paved paths. There’s a loooong, well-used, and actually useful waterfront trail (though it has confusing sections and a few gaps) that runs the full width of the city. Toronto has a real and alive-at-all-hours downtown, so biking is super convenient because you can organize your days in a compact way. The city is very flat east-to-west and only has a couple big hills / hilly sections on north-south routes.
I miss biking here.
posted by sixswitch at 5:52 PM on September 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
But Toronto can also be a really great city to bike in. There are ravines running at angles all through us, a bit like the tentacles of the harbour in Boston, and most of them have paved paths. There’s a loooong, well-used, and actually useful waterfront trail (though it has confusing sections and a few gaps) that runs the full width of the city. Toronto has a real and alive-at-all-hours downtown, so biking is super convenient because you can organize your days in a compact way. The city is very flat east-to-west and only has a couple big hills / hilly sections on north-south routes.
I miss biking here.
posted by sixswitch at 5:52 PM on September 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
And the TTC is certainly worthy of complaint, but it’s also clean, professionally operated, friendly, air-conditioned, frequent, and fully unionized. Just to give an alternate perspective.
posted by sixswitch at 5:56 PM on September 8, 2018
posted by sixswitch at 5:56 PM on September 8, 2018
[Not a Toronto cyclist, so please feel free to ignore if it isn’t relevant. However, I’ve cycled for the last decade in some of the largest and busiest cities in the world and have also done a bit of cycle touring, including across most of Europe.]
My cycling philosophy comes from learning to motorcycle and belonging to a militant cycling forum at an impressionable age, but it basically boils down to the following:
I don’t need or want a cycle lane that’s full of parked cars, metal drain covers, potholes and all the loose gravel swept off the road. I have more right to be in the road than a car: I’m not dangerous to other road users, I’m not polluting, I’m faster than a car over any journey with >1 traffic light, and both of our vehicles are probably carrying the same number of people. So cars can yield to me, thanks.
I don’t believe in separate, inferior infrastructure (especially not when the separation is a line of paint). If, as a society, we’re not able to make bike lanes that are better than the “car lanes”, the next best thing isn’t oh well, shitty bike lanes - it’s mixed use, where car drivers are accustomed to sharing the road with cyclists.
Overtaking me is unnecessary, given that i ride at approximately the speed of traffic, and I’ll be overtaking the car in question at the next light, after which they’ll never see me again.
So I’m going to decide when its safe for a car to overtake.
If it isn’t safe for them to overtake, because they would be too close to me, or because I’d need to ride next to parked cars that could door me, then I’ll take the lane (ie ride in the centre of the lane or further towards the middle of the road) until I deem it safe. They can feel free to use the horn if it makes them feel better.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 6:10 PM on September 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
My cycling philosophy comes from learning to motorcycle and belonging to a militant cycling forum at an impressionable age, but it basically boils down to the following:
I don’t need or want a cycle lane that’s full of parked cars, metal drain covers, potholes and all the loose gravel swept off the road. I have more right to be in the road than a car: I’m not dangerous to other road users, I’m not polluting, I’m faster than a car over any journey with >1 traffic light, and both of our vehicles are probably carrying the same number of people. So cars can yield to me, thanks.
I don’t believe in separate, inferior infrastructure (especially not when the separation is a line of paint). If, as a society, we’re not able to make bike lanes that are better than the “car lanes”, the next best thing isn’t oh well, shitty bike lanes - it’s mixed use, where car drivers are accustomed to sharing the road with cyclists.
Overtaking me is unnecessary, given that i ride at approximately the speed of traffic, and I’ll be overtaking the car in question at the next light, after which they’ll never see me again.
So I’m going to decide when its safe for a car to overtake.
If it isn’t safe for them to overtake, because they would be too close to me, or because I’d need to ride next to parked cars that could door me, then I’ll take the lane (ie ride in the centre of the lane or further towards the middle of the road) until I deem it safe. They can feel free to use the horn if it makes them feel better.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 6:10 PM on September 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
→ I don’t believe in separate, inferior infrastructure
Oh, a vehicular cyclist. I was one, once, as a much younger man. Please don't campaign against the facilities that do make cyclists safe, but have fun out there.
posted by scruss at 8:00 PM on September 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
Oh, a vehicular cyclist. I was one, once, as a much younger man. Please don't campaign against the facilities that do make cyclists safe, but have fun out there.
posted by scruss at 8:00 PM on September 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
Those pool noodles need very shape stuff on the ends.
posted by cccorlew at 8:43 PM on September 8, 2018
posted by cccorlew at 8:43 PM on September 8, 2018
Oh, a vehicular cyclist.
This feels like a very... North American perspective. Shared streets work well if they're designed for slow vehicular traffic, like these ones and this one in Tokyo.
posted by ripley_ at 9:59 PM on September 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
This feels like a very... North American perspective. Shared streets work well if they're designed for slow vehicular traffic, like these ones and this one in Tokyo.
posted by ripley_ at 9:59 PM on September 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
Oh, a vehicular cyclist. I was one, once, as a much younger man. Please don't campaign against the facilities that do make cyclists safe, but have fun out there.
Thanks for the term of the art, but if I’m reading it correctly, I think your article concedes my point?
In my comment, I said that good cycle infrastructure > vehicular cycling (what I refered to as “mixed use”) > bad cycle infrastructure, especially when not properly separated and unsafe.
The article claims that vehicular cycling is “dead”, because (1) politicians in the US have tended to adopt infrastructure-based policies to promote cycling instead and (2) the author enjoyed cycling in Montreal. It then goes on to say that:
Also, on a personal note, I live in one of the largest and most congested cities in the world and it doesn’t have any bike lanes at all, so for the moment I’ll be continuing with the techniques I described.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 10:17 PM on September 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
Thanks for the term of the art, but if I’m reading it correctly, I think your article concedes my point?
In my comment, I said that good cycle infrastructure > vehicular cycling (what I refered to as “mixed use”) > bad cycle infrastructure, especially when not properly separated and unsafe.
The article claims that vehicular cycling is “dead”, because (1) politicians in the US have tended to adopt infrastructure-based policies to promote cycling instead and (2) the author enjoyed cycling in Montreal. It then goes on to say that:
[Individual cyclists using vehicular cycling techniques] works. This is the part of vehicular cycling that remains alive. If you have the skills and confidence to ride this way, it’s probably the best way of staying safe on the vast majority of North American streets. And even though bike lanes are being built all over North America, it’s going to be a long while before you’ll be able to get to all of your destinations exclusively on safe, separated bike routes.I’m not campaigning against separate facilities for cyclists. As stated, when done well, that would be my ideal. However, bike lanes are mostly used as a convenient compromise, rather than doing the work of challenging a car-first culture which has comprehensively failed American urban spaces over the last ~100 years.
Also, on a personal note, I live in one of the largest and most congested cities in the world and it doesn’t have any bike lanes at all, so for the moment I’ll be continuing with the techniques I described.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 10:17 PM on September 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
That swinging wide thing...gets my goat every time.
Used to bother me but given the anger lack of safety at "too close" can't really complain any more. I now view it as them respecting me as a vehicle using the whole lane and passing me just like they'd pass any other slow vehicle using the whole lane.
People want a minimum three feet passing distance, bikes should not be treated as 100% predictable (ie, we need to swerve out further in the lane to avoid car doors, large twigs, etc.) there's really not a way to pass while staying even mostly in the right lane.
The riding my tail thing bothers me though. If you can't pass me safely don't tailgate; it's not just you'll do more damage if you hit me but also I can stop on a dime and you can't so you should be giving me more space behind than you give a car. Also, when you finally pass you want to accelerate then change lanes, not change lanes then accelerate.
posted by mark k at 10:28 PM on September 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
Used to bother me but given the anger lack of safety at "too close" can't really complain any more. I now view it as them respecting me as a vehicle using the whole lane and passing me just like they'd pass any other slow vehicle using the whole lane.
People want a minimum three feet passing distance, bikes should not be treated as 100% predictable (ie, we need to swerve out further in the lane to avoid car doors, large twigs, etc.) there's really not a way to pass while staying even mostly in the right lane.
The riding my tail thing bothers me though. If you can't pass me safely don't tailgate; it's not just you'll do more damage if you hit me but also I can stop on a dime and you can't so you should be giving me more space behind than you give a car. Also, when you finally pass you want to accelerate then change lanes, not change lanes then accelerate.
posted by mark k at 10:28 PM on September 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
(Also I assume the noodle would be infuriating to other cyclists in a bicycle crowded area?)
posted by mark k at 10:30 PM on September 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by mark k at 10:30 PM on September 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
Cycle infrastructure that is poorly grafted onto streets that don't support it is really scary. In Vancouver I feel like drivers try their best not to kill you in the ways the city had planned, but...
posted by ethansr at 10:45 PM on September 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by ethansr at 10:45 PM on September 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
Badly designed and/or poorly maintained cycling infrastructure can be dangerous in a couple of ways:
Firstly, if the bad bike lane is on-road (meaning a painted lane, not physical separation) cyclists may be forced to unexpectedly swerve and rejoin the main lane when the bike lane suddenly runs out, or there’s a car parked in the bike lane, or there’s a pothole, or there’s a wet manhole cover, etc etc etc. That puts cyclists at a much higher risk of being struck than if they had been moving predictably in the road the whole time.
Secondly - whether physically separated or not - there are plenty of reasons why a bike lane might not be as appropriate as the road (bike lane doesn’t go to correct side of junction, bike lane is always covered in broken glass, bike lane passes through sketchy unlit park, bike lane is frequently filled with parked cars, whatever). When the lane isn’t fit for purpose, the cyclist is correct to use the road instead. But the existence of the crappy bike lane will encourage car drivers to feel that the cyclist belongs there instead, which has... predictable effects on their behaviour towards the cyclist.
This isn’t to say that bike lanes can’t be an excellent solution. But they need to be very carefully planned. A bad bike lane can certainly be worse than no bike lane at all.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 11:10 PM on September 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
Firstly, if the bad bike lane is on-road (meaning a painted lane, not physical separation) cyclists may be forced to unexpectedly swerve and rejoin the main lane when the bike lane suddenly runs out, or there’s a car parked in the bike lane, or there’s a pothole, or there’s a wet manhole cover, etc etc etc. That puts cyclists at a much higher risk of being struck than if they had been moving predictably in the road the whole time.
Secondly - whether physically separated or not - there are plenty of reasons why a bike lane might not be as appropriate as the road (bike lane doesn’t go to correct side of junction, bike lane is always covered in broken glass, bike lane passes through sketchy unlit park, bike lane is frequently filled with parked cars, whatever). When the lane isn’t fit for purpose, the cyclist is correct to use the road instead. But the existence of the crappy bike lane will encourage car drivers to feel that the cyclist belongs there instead, which has... predictable effects on their behaviour towards the cyclist.
This isn’t to say that bike lanes can’t be an excellent solution. But they need to be very carefully planned. A bad bike lane can certainly be worse than no bike lane at all.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 11:10 PM on September 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
But at some point something changed. I remember when that change started, I joked with friends about how the new cars looked like they were overinflated. It was a new style then, and so it was many years before I actually drove one, and HOLY SHIT I COULDN'T SEE THE CORNERS.
Basically car manufacturers thickened the frame around the windows and roof. Cars are safer because of it. In a rollover there's less chance of the roof crumpling like an aluminum can. But that safety comes at a price, of course--worse visibility. So there's a delicate sort of balance with making the frame as thick and wide as possible but also allowing the driver to actually see around them.
I remember having a mid-90s Toyota and even then I marveled at how thin the metal was between the windshield and the side windows. Good thing I never got in a wreck. But yeah, you could see a lot easier then.
posted by zardoz at 3:50 AM on September 9, 2018 [5 favorites]
Basically car manufacturers thickened the frame around the windows and roof. Cars are safer because of it. In a rollover there's less chance of the roof crumpling like an aluminum can. But that safety comes at a price, of course--worse visibility. So there's a delicate sort of balance with making the frame as thick and wide as possible but also allowing the driver to actually see around them.
I remember having a mid-90s Toyota and even then I marveled at how thin the metal was between the windshield and the side windows. Good thing I never got in a wreck. But yeah, you could see a lot easier then.
posted by zardoz at 3:50 AM on September 9, 2018 [5 favorites]
What the fuck happens to people when they get into a car?
Car, gun, not much difference, simply ignorance v. awareness of momentum of the moment.
posted by filtergik at 3:59 AM on September 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
Car, gun, not much difference, simply ignorance v. awareness of momentum of the moment.
posted by filtergik at 3:59 AM on September 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
Internal combustion entitlement syndrome
Hmm, internal combustion. That should take care of the entitlement and its associated problems.
posted by Stoneshop at 5:39 AM on September 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
Hmm, internal combustion. That should take care of the entitlement and its associated problems.
posted by Stoneshop at 5:39 AM on September 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
The solution is really just to ban cars from city centers past a certain density and set up bollards, but that's apparently a non-starter. While I'm dreaming driver's licenses should be more restrictive, cyclists should have some sort of easy-to-get license as well, and everyone should at least make a nod to following traffic laws.
A derail, but Seattle weather isn't really that bad (the hills are definitely pretty bad). Sure it's gray and wet all the time, but you don't have to deal with three-digit temperatures for several months or hurricanes or freezing rain or y'know, snow drifts. Toronto has genuinely bad weather, but hell, DC is worse than Seattle.
posted by aspersioncast at 6:05 AM on September 9, 2018
A derail, but Seattle weather isn't really that bad (the hills are definitely pretty bad). Sure it's gray and wet all the time, but you don't have to deal with three-digit temperatures for several months or hurricanes or freezing rain or y'know, snow drifts. Toronto has genuinely bad weather, but hell, DC is worse than Seattle.
posted by aspersioncast at 6:05 AM on September 9, 2018
Ditto the experience of people swinging wide into the other lane to pass. For fks sake, I am riding down a suburban street and a vehicle will swing as widely as possible into the other lane to pass. You would think my bike has vehicular typhoid.
When there is no oncoming traffic and it is safe for me to do so, you would rather I not use the other lane to pass you? I am not doing this to show you how exasperated I am. I am doing this to be sure I don't hit you.
posted by King Bee at 7:02 AM on September 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
When there is no oncoming traffic and it is safe for me to do so, you would rather I not use the other lane to pass you? I am not doing this to show you how exasperated I am. I am doing this to be sure I don't hit you.
posted by King Bee at 7:02 AM on September 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
I am surprised to learn that so many people aren't sure of the dimensions of their car as they move around the world in it. What kind of training are people not taking when learning to drive any particular car?
posted by agregoli at 8:50 AM on September 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by agregoli at 8:50 AM on September 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
And, I always feel like I should point out: I drive! I like driving!
This is the craziest thing about the slurring of "cyclists", pretending that the we don't know exactly what you are doing , and how many laws you are breaking, when you are driving a car like an asshole. Because 99% of us are drivers, too.
New Orleans has moved to a"complete streets" vision. every street renovation contains a bike lane by default; they can be removed in the design phase, but for cause.
we still have so far to go, cyclists are safer, but drivers still kill pedestrians like mad in our city.
And the debate on vehicular cycling is dead; it's clear to me that bike lanes, once they hit a certain threshold citywide, do the job of making me safer. A bit by providing separation, but but providing social legitimacy. The bike lanes, and political campaigning in support of such, and the boom in cycling since 2007, have allowed me to take the whole lane if I want, without harassment.
in my experience of about 20 years, watching our city change, bike lanes are less about physics and more about social engineering required to get us away from car culture.
posted by eustatic at 8:56 AM on September 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
This is the craziest thing about the slurring of "cyclists", pretending that the we don't know exactly what you are doing , and how many laws you are breaking, when you are driving a car like an asshole. Because 99% of us are drivers, too.
New Orleans has moved to a"complete streets" vision. every street renovation contains a bike lane by default; they can be removed in the design phase, but for cause.
we still have so far to go, cyclists are safer, but drivers still kill pedestrians like mad in our city.
And the debate on vehicular cycling is dead; it's clear to me that bike lanes, once they hit a certain threshold citywide, do the job of making me safer. A bit by providing separation, but but providing social legitimacy. The bike lanes, and political campaigning in support of such, and the boom in cycling since 2007, have allowed me to take the whole lane if I want, without harassment.
in my experience of about 20 years, watching our city change, bike lanes are less about physics and more about social engineering required to get us away from car culture.
posted by eustatic at 8:56 AM on September 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
i also think that we way New Orleans has rolled out bike share was well done. The bikes are simple, it took a year of debate as to where the stations would be placed, the branding of the bikes is done by the medical insurance company
which, on the one hand, is corporate and gross, but, on the other, signifies a boring conservatism that defangs the reaction to cyclists as a marginal group.
(but then the uber company bought the cycling service, so, you know, you can't have anything nice without california billionaires fucking it up)
posted by eustatic at 9:41 AM on September 9, 2018
which, on the one hand, is corporate and gross, but, on the other, signifies a boring conservatism that defangs the reaction to cyclists as a marginal group.
(but then the uber company bought the cycling service, so, you know, you can't have anything nice without california billionaires fucking it up)
posted by eustatic at 9:41 AM on September 9, 2018
When there is no oncoming traffic and it is safe for me to do so, you would rather I not use the other lane to pass you? I am not doing this to show you how exasperated I am. I am doing this to be sure I don't hit you.
Perhaps it wasn't clear I was speaking about people who move entirely into the other lane to pass. They are not just moving left, they are travelling completely on the left side of the roadway while passing.
A car travelling down the wrong lane emperils anyone who suddenly enters the roadway...cats, dogs, other bikers, pedestrians, drivers exiting their driveways.
I don't need 10 feet of spare room it just demonstrates to me the driver is incompetent. Obviously, I don't need someone hugging my fender when passing either, that's scary.
When I pass bikers I move left to give them a bit of room. Maybe my vehicle is straddling the center of the road. I don't move my vehicle entirely into the other lane on suburban streets. That's the behavior I see more frequently than I expect and cannot really see a rationale for it.
posted by diode at 10:20 AM on September 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
Perhaps it wasn't clear I was speaking about people who move entirely into the other lane to pass. They are not just moving left, they are travelling completely on the left side of the roadway while passing.
A car travelling down the wrong lane emperils anyone who suddenly enters the roadway...cats, dogs, other bikers, pedestrians, drivers exiting their driveways.
I don't need 10 feet of spare room it just demonstrates to me the driver is incompetent. Obviously, I don't need someone hugging my fender when passing either, that's scary.
When I pass bikers I move left to give them a bit of room. Maybe my vehicle is straddling the center of the road. I don't move my vehicle entirely into the other lane on suburban streets. That's the behavior I see more frequently than I expect and cannot really see a rationale for it.
posted by diode at 10:20 AM on September 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
I bike commute exclusively in the city, so people moving into the entire oncoming lane are doing this on city streets. This is not rural or suburban roads where there may not even be lane markers and there's no oncoming traffic for a mile. And of course because there is so much oncoming traffic, before they execute this maneuver, they have to ride my tail for several blocks. I can hear them back there, I'm peddling as fast as I can (which is not very fast because I'm not a spandex-wearing I-am-one-with-my-cycle road warrior, I'm a middle aged woman wearing my work clothes just trying to get the couple miles to my office), I know they're needlessly holding up traffic and I know 80% of the drivers are blaming me for it. I don't need 15 feet of clearance, just 4 is fine (that's the law here) and unless you're in a Hummer, there's plenty of room for that. You're not making me any safer, you're driving dangerously.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:34 AM on September 9, 2018
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:34 AM on September 9, 2018
What the fuck happens to people when they get into a car?
Probably the same thing that happens to people when they get on a bike or walk. I cycle almost daily in Toronto and it seems there are people using any of the three listed modes of transportation in exactly the same manner. Namely, the rules don't apply to me. My world and my goals are far more important than anyone else's and what the fuck are the laws of physics?
I stop at stop signs on the road when riding my bike and signal my stops and turns. Other cyclists often flip me the bird for stopping at stop signs (apparently being ahead of them and slowing to a stop at a stop sign interrupts their speed or time) whereas motorists look utterly confused that a cyclist would do this and they often, much to my confusion, wave me through even though they had the right of way. My latest close accidents involve other cyclists and people. On a path that is created to be shared by cyclists and walkers with several signs reminding people to be aware of their surroundings. Another cyclist going the opposite direction to me wandered into what is understood as the right lane (so he wandered from his right lane to the left into mine) because he was using his cell phone. Just narrowly avoided a head on collision. Cycling groups often meet on the path and when they are prepared to get going they often do teh same thing. Don't bother looking if anyone is already approaching, fuck them. People walk on to the path all the time without even bothering to look either way to see if anyone is cycling, walking, or running toward their spot. They just walk on as if no other people exist. This happens to me at least twice a week. I've been so lucky not collide with anyone yet but I've had to brake and bail a few times which has caused some very painful injuries.
Motorists seem to love to invade bike lanes when turning right, sitting there waiting for people to cross so I have to go around the car to the left, which for some reason pisses them off.
I used to commute daily years ago and the selfish, terrible behaviour of drivers is simply unbelievable. Far worse than mistakes, which happen of course. So many accidents witnessed that clearly didn't have to happen.
When I ride, drive, or walk (can't stand when cyclists use the sidewalk, it's fucking dangerous), I just assume the worst when dealing with others doing the same and try to be careful. Been lucky so far.
It's unfortunate that people who are scared of driving or cycling still do it anyway. Drivers who go into the other lane to pass cyclists are alarming as are cyclists who are afraid of cars so they use the sidewalk.
When are we getting the traffic wardens we were promised?
I dream of this. Have dreamt of it for years. The driving, cycling, and walking culture in Toronto is absolutely shit and at this point I don't believe a culture change is going to happen anytime soon. We need wardens. The cost is easily offset in saved lives and money. There's no hope at all for people walking onto paths or roads without looking but for cars and bikes, having wardens around might force them to behave better. I remember reading about Ralf Schumacher, a former F1 driver, going on about how awful the drivers are in Canada. He couldn't believe it and he was speaking about road driving, not racing.
Obviously, in terms of danger, this blase approach to transportation is most dangerous with cars involved. Given Toronto and the province's current government, I fear wardens and improved culture will remain just a dream.
posted by juiceCake at 11:32 AM on September 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
Probably the same thing that happens to people when they get on a bike or walk. I cycle almost daily in Toronto and it seems there are people using any of the three listed modes of transportation in exactly the same manner. Namely, the rules don't apply to me. My world and my goals are far more important than anyone else's and what the fuck are the laws of physics?
I stop at stop signs on the road when riding my bike and signal my stops and turns. Other cyclists often flip me the bird for stopping at stop signs (apparently being ahead of them and slowing to a stop at a stop sign interrupts their speed or time) whereas motorists look utterly confused that a cyclist would do this and they often, much to my confusion, wave me through even though they had the right of way. My latest close accidents involve other cyclists and people. On a path that is created to be shared by cyclists and walkers with several signs reminding people to be aware of their surroundings. Another cyclist going the opposite direction to me wandered into what is understood as the right lane (so he wandered from his right lane to the left into mine) because he was using his cell phone. Just narrowly avoided a head on collision. Cycling groups often meet on the path and when they are prepared to get going they often do teh same thing. Don't bother looking if anyone is already approaching, fuck them. People walk on to the path all the time without even bothering to look either way to see if anyone is cycling, walking, or running toward their spot. They just walk on as if no other people exist. This happens to me at least twice a week. I've been so lucky not collide with anyone yet but I've had to brake and bail a few times which has caused some very painful injuries.
Motorists seem to love to invade bike lanes when turning right, sitting there waiting for people to cross so I have to go around the car to the left, which for some reason pisses them off.
I used to commute daily years ago and the selfish, terrible behaviour of drivers is simply unbelievable. Far worse than mistakes, which happen of course. So many accidents witnessed that clearly didn't have to happen.
When I ride, drive, or walk (can't stand when cyclists use the sidewalk, it's fucking dangerous), I just assume the worst when dealing with others doing the same and try to be careful. Been lucky so far.
It's unfortunate that people who are scared of driving or cycling still do it anyway. Drivers who go into the other lane to pass cyclists are alarming as are cyclists who are afraid of cars so they use the sidewalk.
When are we getting the traffic wardens we were promised?
I dream of this. Have dreamt of it for years. The driving, cycling, and walking culture in Toronto is absolutely shit and at this point I don't believe a culture change is going to happen anytime soon. We need wardens. The cost is easily offset in saved lives and money. There's no hope at all for people walking onto paths or roads without looking but for cars and bikes, having wardens around might force them to behave better. I remember reading about Ralf Schumacher, a former F1 driver, going on about how awful the drivers are in Canada. He couldn't believe it and he was speaking about road driving, not racing.
Obviously, in terms of danger, this blase approach to transportation is most dangerous with cars involved. Given Toronto and the province's current government, I fear wardens and improved culture will remain just a dream.
posted by juiceCake at 11:32 AM on September 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
Motorists seem to love to invade bike lanes when turning right, sitting there waiting for people to cross so I have to go around the car to the left, which for some reason pisses them off.
My understanding is that this is what you are supposed to do when turning right where there's a bike lane -- other than those curb separated ones -- merge to the right all the way to the curb. I don't know why people get pissed off about the passing on the left, though, since that's also my understanding of what the bikes are supposed to do.
posted by jacquilynne at 12:11 PM on September 9, 2018 [4 favorites]
My understanding is that this is what you are supposed to do when turning right where there's a bike lane -- other than those curb separated ones -- merge to the right all the way to the curb. I don't know why people get pissed off about the passing on the left, though, since that's also my understanding of what the bikes are supposed to do.
posted by jacquilynne at 12:11 PM on September 9, 2018 [4 favorites]
It's the "mildly inconvenienced" bit that gets me. People are willing to play chicken with a person's life to save 3 seconds of travel time. How is that possible? What the fuck happens to people when they get into a car?
YUP. I was recently nearly taken out by a driver who saw a parking space on the side of the road and evidently wasn't bothered by the presence of a cyclist in the way. The most upsetting thing was his willingness to risk my life rather than wait the three seconds it would've taken for me to get clear.
There very much seems to be an attitude among some car drivers that the entire road is for them and that cyclists are interlopers in their space. A particular point on my commute where a cycle path intersects a road has a traffic light and marked crossing, which inattentive folks frequently run. One particularly talented driver ran the red while I was already in the road crossing on my green light, then honked and yelled at me for being in her way. It's also crazy frustrating how often people use bike lanes as a 'pull over and check my phone/wait for my friend/eat my lunch' zone. They usually, if they notice me at all, do an impatient wave to indicate that I should go around them. I'd rather not randomly veer into traffic, thanks all the same.
I have had uncountable near misses with doorings and drivers failing to give way. It's often as though they don't see me or register my presence at all. Passing distance is probably the cyclist-interaction thing that drivers in my neck of the woods do best, honestly :/
posted by lwb at 12:14 PM on September 9, 2018
YUP. I was recently nearly taken out by a driver who saw a parking space on the side of the road and evidently wasn't bothered by the presence of a cyclist in the way. The most upsetting thing was his willingness to risk my life rather than wait the three seconds it would've taken for me to get clear.
There very much seems to be an attitude among some car drivers that the entire road is for them and that cyclists are interlopers in their space. A particular point on my commute where a cycle path intersects a road has a traffic light and marked crossing, which inattentive folks frequently run. One particularly talented driver ran the red while I was already in the road crossing on my green light, then honked and yelled at me for being in her way. It's also crazy frustrating how often people use bike lanes as a 'pull over and check my phone/wait for my friend/eat my lunch' zone. They usually, if they notice me at all, do an impatient wave to indicate that I should go around them. I'd rather not randomly veer into traffic, thanks all the same.
I have had uncountable near misses with doorings and drivers failing to give way. It's often as though they don't see me or register my presence at all. Passing distance is probably the cyclist-interaction thing that drivers in my neck of the woods do best, honestly :/
posted by lwb at 12:14 PM on September 9, 2018
For what it's worth, Colorado law explicitly permits drivers to cross a double yellow center line, when it's safe to do so, in order to pass a person riding a bicycle. On the largely-quiet city streets I ride on daily, I would much rather drivers cross the line to pass me than not. Unfortunately, with no test of any kind for out-of-state drivers, very few people are aware of state law, so mostly they hug the yellow line and try to pass me way too close, because they're more scared of breaking what they think the law is than they are of breaking me.
I'd rather have the space, and I don't care how performative crossing to the other side looks. Keep it slow so you don't kill me if one of us fucks it up, and give me lots of space so you don't kill me if one of us fucks it up. Not that hard. It's a minimum of three feet from where I am, not from where you think I ought to be, and threatening me because you don't like my lane position is not acceptable human behavior.
I've considered the pool noodle thing (or the Friendly Cat's Paw) but would need to come up with a method that I could quickly fold against my bike for when I'm able to use a multi-use path or I bring my bike on the train. But yeah, drivers are far too likely to overestimate how close they're coming to me compared to what they do when passing fixed objects like parked cars or concrete curbs. I do my best to just not let them pass in areas where I know the odds are they're going to do it unsafely. So far none of them have been willing to hit me deliberately, no matter how much their honking and cursing says they'd like to. (Note that we're talking spaces of less than one block on a low-traffic street, the one that I live on, is a posted city bike route, and has a goddamn elementary school on it. I don't really give a shit who I'm inconveniencing by failing to let them speed here.)
I record every tiny trip to and from work or the grocery store on video nowadays, not that there's much I can do with it. Police won't enforce laws against illegal window tinting, and if I don't see who's behind the wheel, my images and license plate info won't help. Like, I don't even care if they're cited, because anything that's only punishable by a fine is de facto legal for rich people. I just want them educated.
So, yeah, I've got feelings about this one, complete with conversations about the topic with local police this very week. I'm so fucking sick of people driving their cars like other people don't exist. More of the same.
posted by asperity at 1:03 PM on September 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'd rather have the space, and I don't care how performative crossing to the other side looks. Keep it slow so you don't kill me if one of us fucks it up, and give me lots of space so you don't kill me if one of us fucks it up. Not that hard. It's a minimum of three feet from where I am, not from where you think I ought to be, and threatening me because you don't like my lane position is not acceptable human behavior.
I've considered the pool noodle thing (or the Friendly Cat's Paw) but would need to come up with a method that I could quickly fold against my bike for when I'm able to use a multi-use path or I bring my bike on the train. But yeah, drivers are far too likely to overestimate how close they're coming to me compared to what they do when passing fixed objects like parked cars or concrete curbs. I do my best to just not let them pass in areas where I know the odds are they're going to do it unsafely. So far none of them have been willing to hit me deliberately, no matter how much their honking and cursing says they'd like to. (Note that we're talking spaces of less than one block on a low-traffic street, the one that I live on, is a posted city bike route, and has a goddamn elementary school on it. I don't really give a shit who I'm inconveniencing by failing to let them speed here.)
I record every tiny trip to and from work or the grocery store on video nowadays, not that there's much I can do with it. Police won't enforce laws against illegal window tinting, and if I don't see who's behind the wheel, my images and license plate info won't help. Like, I don't even care if they're cited, because anything that's only punishable by a fine is de facto legal for rich people. I just want them educated.
So, yeah, I've got feelings about this one, complete with conversations about the topic with local police this very week. I'm so fucking sick of people driving their cars like other people don't exist. More of the same.
posted by asperity at 1:03 PM on September 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
Perhaps it wasn't clear I was speaking about people who move entirely into the other lane to pass. They are not just moving left, they are travelling completely on the left side of the roadway while passing.
Yes, sometimes I do this. I hear enough stories from cyclists complaining about there being cars on roads that are built for cars and I am doing my best to make sure that they know i am not going to imperil them by driving to close to them.
I know the dimensions of my car. I can see the road in front of me. I understand how fast I am going. It is more dangerous to drive closer to you than it is to drive in the opposite lane when there is no traffic.
posted by King Bee at 1:27 PM on September 9, 2018 [5 favorites]
Yes, sometimes I do this. I hear enough stories from cyclists complaining about there being cars on roads that are built for cars and I am doing my best to make sure that they know i am not going to imperil them by driving to close to them.
I know the dimensions of my car. I can see the road in front of me. I understand how fast I am going. It is more dangerous to drive closer to you than it is to drive in the opposite lane when there is no traffic.
posted by King Bee at 1:27 PM on September 9, 2018 [5 favorites]
I have no problem with drivers giving me a wide berth when passing - including crossing the center line into the oncoming lane - as long as they are doing so safely and not playing chicken with oncoming traffic. In fact, I welcome it! And I am equally ok with drivers waiting behind me (as long as their bumper isn't right on my rear wheel) until it is safe to pass. It's literally what they should be doing and I'm boggled at folks who find it threatening. What's worse to me are the drivers who squeeze through when their instinct is telling them there's not enough room but I guess brake pedals don't exist so they just kind of grip the steering wheel, hike their shoulders up to their ears in a preemptive cringe, and give me 12 inches of space if I'm lucky.
The pool noodle thing would never work for my commute, on nice days there are dozens of cyclists at every stoplight with me; all it would do would be making it harder for my fellow cyclists to pass me safely. (And yes there is also a problem with cyclists passing each other too close but they also don't need to give me 3 feet the way a driver should.)
posted by misskaz at 1:53 PM on September 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
The pool noodle thing would never work for my commute, on nice days there are dozens of cyclists at every stoplight with me; all it would do would be making it harder for my fellow cyclists to pass me safely. (And yes there is also a problem with cyclists passing each other too close but they also don't need to give me 3 feet the way a driver should.)
posted by misskaz at 1:53 PM on September 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
I know the dimensions of my car. I can see the road in front of me. I understand how fast I am going.
Making you in the minority apparently.
posted by aspersioncast at 5:41 PM on September 9, 2018
Making you in the minority apparently.
posted by aspersioncast at 5:41 PM on September 9, 2018
I cycle almost daily in Toronto and it seems there are people using any of the three listed modes of transportation in exactly the same manner. Namely, the rules don't apply to me. My world and my goals are far more important than anyone else's and what the fuck are the laws of physics?
I cannot express how thoroughly, completely, utterly true this was for me cycling in Philadelphia. I eventually just kind of stopped; between the weather and...literally everyone I was sharing a road with, it had lost all enjoyment.
(I find Seattle much better, or possibly I'm able to stick to the cycling infrastructure to get most places, and have settled down to just being kind of amazed at how pedestrians in particular have made an art form out of being blissfully unaware of any and everything around them. It's kinda beautiful, in a way.)
posted by kalimac at 9:48 PM on September 9, 2018
I cannot express how thoroughly, completely, utterly true this was for me cycling in Philadelphia. I eventually just kind of stopped; between the weather and...literally everyone I was sharing a road with, it had lost all enjoyment.
(I find Seattle much better, or possibly I'm able to stick to the cycling infrastructure to get most places, and have settled down to just being kind of amazed at how pedestrians in particular have made an art form out of being blissfully unaware of any and everything around them. It's kinda beautiful, in a way.)
posted by kalimac at 9:48 PM on September 9, 2018
But I don't know how wide my car is, and I'd much, much rather wait until I'm really sure it's safe to pass you, rather than risk hitting you.
This is not a reasonable thing to say out loud. Get off the road.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 2:38 AM on September 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
This is not a reasonable thing to say out loud. Get off the road.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 2:38 AM on September 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
To be fair to Toronto, I have never heard anyone - on the internet or in person - say "The drivers in my hometown are great! Just a really competent bunch, fully alert and focused on the road at all times, and conscientious of pedestrians, cyclists and other drivers." As others have pointed out, being behind the wheel of a car seems to have a detrimental effect on the psyche of many people and even if it doesn't, driving a car is an inherently dangerous action no matter what.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:03 AM on September 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:03 AM on September 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
I encounter the 'waving you through the stop sign' as a form of courtesy(?) or something. I have a whole range of behaviors designed to prevent motorists from trying to get me to do things that are not in my self-interest, like hauling my bike and me across an intersection when the other vehicle has the right of way and can simply go and be outta there.
The only accident I've had, or near accidents, have involved bikers doing unexpected and dangerous riding.
My whole bike riding life is designed to keep me safe which mostly means staying out of the way of 2+ tons of kinetic energy moving faster than I can react. Parking lots are particularly dangerous in that driving behavior can be totally unexpected compared to an engineered street.
I tend to think it's the traffic engineer culture that needs to change. My town has a considered approach to creating mass transit which includes bike lanes almost everywhere I want to go. I'm lucky in that respect and chose this town in part because the city has bike friendly policies. The drivers here are no different than anywhere, maybe a bit slower since it's a small city, not a big one. The infrastructure tends to support respect for riders. As long as I stay off the busy arteries, I'm good.
Even with that, every day is a learning curve with getting hurt as the penalty for not being paranoid or attentive enough. I ride as if auto vehicles were dangerous animals wearing blinders. Never assume they can see you.
posted by diode at 11:04 AM on September 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
The only accident I've had, or near accidents, have involved bikers doing unexpected and dangerous riding.
My whole bike riding life is designed to keep me safe which mostly means staying out of the way of 2+ tons of kinetic energy moving faster than I can react. Parking lots are particularly dangerous in that driving behavior can be totally unexpected compared to an engineered street.
I tend to think it's the traffic engineer culture that needs to change. My town has a considered approach to creating mass transit which includes bike lanes almost everywhere I want to go. I'm lucky in that respect and chose this town in part because the city has bike friendly policies. The drivers here are no different than anywhere, maybe a bit slower since it's a small city, not a big one. The infrastructure tends to support respect for riders. As long as I stay off the busy arteries, I'm good.
Even with that, every day is a learning curve with getting hurt as the penalty for not being paranoid or attentive enough. I ride as if auto vehicles were dangerous animals wearing blinders. Never assume they can see you.
posted by diode at 11:04 AM on September 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
driving a car is an inherently dangerous action no matter what.
Yes. We're unlikely to change human nature, but infrastructure's not set in stone, only in concrete and asphalt. It's possible to change the priorities we assign our traffic engineers, to make the safety of everyone more important than pure level of service for people driving automobiles.
Toronto mayoral candidate Jennifer Keesmat has a plan to make streets safer:
posted by asperity at 12:05 PM on September 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
Yes. We're unlikely to change human nature, but infrastructure's not set in stone, only in concrete and asphalt. It's possible to change the priorities we assign our traffic engineers, to make the safety of everyone more important than pure level of service for people driving automobiles.
Toronto mayoral candidate Jennifer Keesmat has a plan to make streets safer:
- Reduce the speed limit to 30 km/h on all residential roads
- Transform Toronto’s 100 most dangerous intersections within two years
- Make a “Vision Zero” approach a requirement of every infrastructure and development project involving roads and sidewalks
posted by asperity at 12:05 PM on September 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
I like what I've seen and heard of Keesmat so far, but unless I don't know my fellow citizens of Toronto as well as I fear I do, all Tory will have to do to win in a landslide is point at her and say "SHE WANTS TO MAKE YOU DRIVE SLOWER!!!!"
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:53 PM on September 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:53 PM on September 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
My understanding is that this is what you are supposed to do when turning right where there's a bike lane -- other than those curb separated ones -- merge to the right all the way to the curb.
Yes, that is how it works but in the incident mentioned it was a timing thing. When I'm in the bike lane and I see the light is green ahead, I look to the cars ahead for turning signals. If I see none, I proceed in the lane but in this case (and often) the signal wasn't on until the motorist got to the point of turning, at which point I was just behind a bit. He moved into the lane causing me to brake heavily, then check behind me that I could go around safely depending on what the cars behind him were up to and I just narrowly avoided an accident but managed to go around but this still outraged the turning driver. I am guessing the driver was completely unaware of his surroundings and felt I was the one putting myself in danger from the way I rode but who knows.
These incidents become like a dream sometimes. Perhaps the brain goes into a mode that helps you react very quickly. I remember I was in a lane once and a car in a street perpendicular to the road I was riding on turned left just as I was arriving at the intersection so I just turned right to avoid driving straight into him. Another time I was driving a car and someone ahead in the parking lane suddenly did U-Turn just as I was arriving. I managed to swerve someway to avoid the accident and my stomach was in my throat only after I avoided it but what I did comes off as dream like.
posted by juiceCake at 4:11 PM on September 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yes, that is how it works but in the incident mentioned it was a timing thing. When I'm in the bike lane and I see the light is green ahead, I look to the cars ahead for turning signals. If I see none, I proceed in the lane but in this case (and often) the signal wasn't on until the motorist got to the point of turning, at which point I was just behind a bit. He moved into the lane causing me to brake heavily, then check behind me that I could go around safely depending on what the cars behind him were up to and I just narrowly avoided an accident but managed to go around but this still outraged the turning driver. I am guessing the driver was completely unaware of his surroundings and felt I was the one putting myself in danger from the way I rode but who knows.
These incidents become like a dream sometimes. Perhaps the brain goes into a mode that helps you react very quickly. I remember I was in a lane once and a car in a street perpendicular to the road I was riding on turned left just as I was arriving at the intersection so I just turned right to avoid driving straight into him. Another time I was driving a car and someone ahead in the parking lane suddenly did U-Turn just as I was arriving. I managed to swerve someway to avoid the accident and my stomach was in my throat only after I avoided it but what I did comes off as dream like.
posted by juiceCake at 4:11 PM on September 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
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posted by ryanrs at 9:38 AM on September 8, 2018 [11 favorites]