Liars.
September 20, 2018 11:22 AM   Subscribe

After a nice dinner, selling the Chequers plan is not going terribly well for Theresa May, prefering her own plan to Michel Barnier's (which Jeremy Corbyn isn't fond of either). Donald Tusk says it "will not work". Nicola Sturgeon wants Brexit delayed. Jacob Rees-Mogg wants to 'Chuck Chequers'. Leanne Wood is otherwise occupied, Keir Starmer is pretty negative and Vince Cable will oppose it. Michael Gove thinks it is temporary, Boris Johnson refers to 1066, Lynton Crosby is busy plotting, while Mike Penning refers to the dodo. And Emmanuel Macron exclaims that "those who explain that we can easily live without Europe, that everything is going to be alright, and that it's going to bring a lot of money home, are liars". The clock ticketh.
posted by Wordshore (185 comments total) 40 users marked this as a favorite
 
God, Boris Johnson is an idiot.
posted by lumpenprole at 11:41 AM on September 20, 2018 [19 favorites]


Thank you for this.
Its unbelievable to me that the British rightwing who have hijacked this from the start are being allowed to walk government over the cliffedge..
The greed and lies are appalling. And now project fear is ramped up again with statements about policing civil unrest.
Listen up you numptys without this mendacious scememe there would be no civil unrest. But now its Britain back to 1945 with shortages of everything but we can get our blue passports back. Bastards. Shortsighted selfish bastards the lot of them and I include the utterly useless St. Jeremy in this rant. It is our childrens futures which are being heartily fucked over.
If anything warranted a movement to the barricades it is this with some extra special decorated pikes for Boris, Grove, Rees Mogg, Dacre and those chancers Farage and Banks and the disgraced exminister Liam Fox . There needs to be a reckoning.
posted by adamvasco at 11:48 AM on September 20, 2018 [35 favorites]


Their strategy appears to be "Hope that one morning we will wake up and discover that this was all bad dream".
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 11:50 AM on September 20, 2018 [9 favorites]


God, Boris Johnson is an idiot.

One must believe that God is well aware of it. Why God refused to act, on the other hand....
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:58 AM on September 20, 2018 [5 favorites]


Autumn conferences of significant British political parties

Labour: 23rd September to 26th September
Conservatives: 30th September to 3rd October
Plaid Cymru: 5th October to 6th October
Green Party of England and Wales: 5th October to 7th October
Scottish National Party: 7th October to 9th October
Scottish Green Party: 20th October to 21st October
posted by Wordshore at 12:04 PM on September 20, 2018 [6 favorites]


The fact that Theresa May of all people is one of the sane people in room (and "sane" by a mere thread, here), should tell you something.

These assholes all jockeying for reins of power, while millions of lives are affected by this - straight up wilful negligence, and there will be lives lost, no doubt about it.

And that is a millstone around these conservatives necks.
posted by symbioid at 12:07 PM on September 20, 2018 [2 favorites]


If anything the way conservatives act really proves that they believe God exists... because the only way these actions will be successful is through divine intervention.
posted by tittergrrl at 12:11 PM on September 20, 2018 [2 favorites]




[Johnson] would prefer to see chaos on the Irish border than someone else bagging his splash.
I have no idea what this means, and I'm fairly certain I don't want to...
posted by klanawa at 12:17 PM on September 20, 2018 [1 favorite]


> The falling pound is the best part.

In October I'm visiting England for the first time since 1992, and I was (pleasantly) shocked by the difference in the exchange rate between the pound and the Canadian dollar between now and then.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:33 PM on September 20, 2018 [3 favorites]


It’s basically a scheme to permenantly impoverish the British people for the benefit of disaster capitalists and nothing else at this point.

Said disaster capitalists are all the ones sitting at the table so there will be no pulling up from it.
posted by Artw at 12:42 PM on September 20, 2018 [22 favorites]


And that is a millstone around these conservatives necks.

While I'm hopeful that the millstone will be enough, I think I'll hang onto this surprisingly noose-shaped piece of rope, nonetheless.
posted by howfar at 12:44 PM on September 20, 2018


and there will be lives lost

Alas, we've been losing people even before Brexit. And yet the Tories still have voters.
posted by Juso No Thankyou at 12:48 PM on September 20, 2018


the benefit of disaster capitalists

You can already see the narrative emerging. "We need to take every opportunity" "We shouldn't be sneering at the Americans, there is nothing wrong with adopting their food standards, and doing a deal on that basis." "We need to cut health care costs, and the market is the way to do that." "Workers should be allowed to go without paid holidays, its better than not working." Standards, environmental protection, employment rights, all watered down to nothing.
posted by biffa at 12:52 PM on September 20, 2018 [22 favorites]


Boris Johnson is evil and a moron. He probably sees any return of civil war in Northeen Ireland as a chance to beat up on subjects of a colony.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 12:54 PM on September 20, 2018


He probably sees any return of civil war in Northern Ireland as a chance to beat up on subjects of a colony.

The IRA are unavailable for comment, as they've died of laughter as the DUP delivers them a Northern Ireland separated from Britain by border checks that's still essentially part of the EU but still entirely paid for by the long suffering London tax payer who is now an EU rule taker (hilariously from Northern Ireland whose 1.5 million citizens are by law from birth also EU citizens via the Irish Republic under the Good Friday Agreement and thus still have MEPs)
posted by Damienmce at 1:11 PM on September 20, 2018 [8 favorites]


oh for the img tag
posted by lalochezia at 1:17 PM on September 20, 2018 [3 favorites]


> Boris Johnson refers to 1066

these goons always fetishize the shit out of western civilization / anglo-saxon history / The Canon, but they all know precisely fuckall about any of that, because they are stupid people who do not understand any of the cultural touchstones they're invoking, and who see no value in history except insofar as it can be used as a cudgel.

It is not the slightest bit surprising that these motherfuckers consistently oppose education, because an educated populace is inoculated against their nonsense.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 1:32 PM on September 20, 2018 [14 favorites]


Thanks Wordshore for the extensive update (as always). As a continental European, I have a dozen chicken wings in the oven, they'll be ready when Newsnight begins on BBC 2. I just cracked the first can of my six pack. It will be a night of beautiful Schadenfreude television.
What I don't understand about this whole mess: where do the Brits got the idea they are in a position to negotiate in the first place?
posted by ouke at 1:57 PM on September 20, 2018 [3 favorites]


Putin must be peeing himself with glee over all this in the UK and what’s gone down in the US.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:00 PM on September 20, 2018 [3 favorites]


where do the Brits got the idea they are in a position to negotiate in the first place?

Can't quite remember, but I imagine a couple of supply chains had something to do with it. Possibly a few holiday industries.
posted by Juso No Thankyou at 2:06 PM on September 20, 2018



where do the Brits got the idea they are in a position to negotiate in the first place?


The part in Blazing Saddles when the Sheriff threatens to shoot himself if they don't put down their weapons.
posted by Damienmce at 2:14 PM on September 20, 2018 [32 favorites]


where do the Brits got the idea they are in a position to negotiate in the first place?

Turns out we’re morons. I know, I’m as suprised as you are, but we all got together and voted on “are we morons Y/N?” and the Y side won and here we are.

Utter fucking morons.

Slight consolation: it was a very narrow vote and the Moron side cheated, lied and hacked their way to their very narrow margin of victory, but it shouldn’t have been that close in the first place.

Morons.

And now we’re going to get robbed blind.
posted by Artw at 2:24 PM on September 20, 2018 [38 favorites]


An Eton education followed by an Oxbridge PPE really isn't looking very good these days is it? Seems to mostly produce incredibly complete idiots.
posted by srboisvert at 2:25 PM on September 20, 2018 [7 favorites]


I mean Oxford and Cambridge had a damned good run but mostly they've just been coasting for the past 300 years or so.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 2:29 PM on September 20, 2018 [3 favorites]


Seems to mostly produce incredibly complete idiots.

Well, it's that completeness that really sets one apart. That utter, well-rounded idiocy isn't something that other schools are in a position to impart.
posted by nickmark at 2:38 PM on September 20, 2018 [11 favorites]


But with Etonians shunned in the modern Cabinet, where will the new talent come from?

God, these people are so fucking stupid, and evil. Lord knows the leave voter is going to blame the EU when his insulin costs six grand a year and he's been fired for using a sick day after getting salmonella poisoning for the third time. When's the next march?
posted by lucidium at 2:38 PM on September 20, 2018 [3 favorites]


I have been a bit dismissive in previous brexit threads, but it turns out brexit is going to cost the Dutch economy (PDF) a lot so.... fuck...
posted by Pendragon at 2:45 PM on September 20, 2018


Autumn conferences of significant British political parties

I see what you did there, Wordshore. Also, I found out that one can't cancel their Lib Dem membership from their website.

a night of beautiful Schadenfreude television

I mean, fair play to you and all that, but there's innocent people trapped in that bus heading off a cliff there.

Also, I can't even stand the news bulletins on BBC 6 Music, let alone anything longer. "Theresa May disappointed as the bloc rejects her proposal" was the last headline I heard. As if she'd come with a sensible proposal. Newsnight sounds like torture from here.
posted by ambrosen at 2:48 PM on September 20, 2018 [10 favorites]


When's the next march?

20th October
posted by ambrosen at 2:49 PM on September 20, 2018 [3 favorites]


When's the next march?

please let it be ides, please let it be ides
posted by lalochezia at 3:15 PM on September 20, 2018 [13 favorites]


I'm just here for the amazing photo of the dinner in Salzburg in the first link of the OP. It looks like something out of a fantasy movie. Does anyone know what venue that is?
posted by Pfardentrott at 3:26 PM on September 20, 2018


Googling a bit, it appears to be the Felsenreitschule theatre.
posted by lucidium at 3:37 PM on September 20, 2018


Thank you!
posted by Pfardentrott at 3:55 PM on September 20, 2018


where do the Brits got the idea they are in a position to negotiate in the first place?


Britain's chief export is the accent, as near as I can tell. I think that gives them an outsized impression of the extent of thier influence.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 4:33 PM on September 20, 2018 [7 favorites]


I think it’s prettymuch been whittled down to the financial services industry and jam.

Hope everyone likes jam.
posted by Artw at 4:38 PM on September 20, 2018 [7 favorites]


I expect May to, at some point soon, announce that the UK is withdrawing from negotiations with the EU and that there will be no deal, but a “clean break” on 29 March, with, effectively, sub-Saharan Africa beginning at Calais. Sure, any industry that has supply chains dependent on the EU will be fucked seven ways to a Sunday straight out the gate, and may as well call in the liquidators now, as will any sector dependent on labour from the EU (such as, say, the NHS), and the only thing keeping thousands of grumpy, economically unproductive British pensioners being ejected from the Costa Del Sol and dumped in Clacton-on-Sea is Spain knowing better than to wrestle a proverbial pig, but hey, our upstanding, personal-responsibility-believing cousins across the Atlantic have promised us a shiny new trade deal, which will be much more gosh-darn awesome than anything those garlic-eaters across the Channel could come up with. Sure, it'll mean hormone-injected beef, chlorinated chicken and £10 aspirins, but if it's good enough for the World's Leading Nation, surely it's good enough for us.
posted by acb at 4:48 PM on September 20, 2018 [9 favorites]


Destroying the NHS has always been a Tory dream, if they have to destroy the UK to do it I’ll guess they’ll go for it.
posted by Artw at 5:14 PM on September 20, 2018 [5 favorites]


So what are the odds that Britain decides to remain at the last minute, causing everyone else to hurriedly leave in disgust.
posted by JackFlash at 5:16 PM on September 20, 2018


Where is the Doctor when you need her?
posted by sabraonthehill at 5:30 PM on September 20, 2018 [4 favorites]


Where is the Doctor when you need her?

Turns out Brexit is more fucked up on the inside.
posted by Celsius1414 at 5:40 PM on September 20, 2018 [18 favorites]


May is toast. The EU won't agree to any nonsense over the Irish border, and the Brexiteers won't agree to anything without that nonsense. It's hard Brexit or second ref and stay (I don't think any polls say otherwise), and May can't survive either. There are no unicorns, and even the Shetland pony with the ice-ream cone splodged on its head has bolted.

A lot will depend on whether Corbyn can hold down the People's Ref side of Labour over the conference, and there are signs - Tom Watson's not speaking on the main stage - that he can't.

so... talks break down, May resigns, Gov collapses, general election about second ref, second ref, Brexit falls? Talks break down, May resigns, Boris takes over, HoC Tories/DUP unite behind him, hard Brexit, UK suddenly has nothing in place of 40 years of agreements on EU trade/aviation/finance/regulation/etc? It's going to be hard work fitting in the first lot before B-Day (bidet?) unless we manage to ask the EU to stay A50 for a bit.

I don't know what the multiverse equivalent of omnishambles is, but it looks a bit like this.
posted by Devonian at 7:13 PM on September 20, 2018 [13 favorites]


Googling a bit, it appears to be the Felsenreitschule theatre.

The Felsenreitschule is also where the Von Trapps sang 'So Long, Farewell'.

[via Twitter]
posted by o seasons o castles at 7:13 PM on September 20, 2018 [3 favorites]


Sure, any industry that has supply chains dependent on the EU will be fucked seven ways to a Sunday straight out the gate,

And the same for those EU supply chains dependent on the UK. Or those companies who export a ton to the UK. It's a pain all round.

Where is the Doctor when you need her?

You do remember how in Torchwood: Children of Earth the Doctor just didn't bother to turn up because humanity was supposedly just a touch too messed up even for his tastes?
posted by Juso No Thankyou at 8:40 PM on September 20, 2018 [2 favorites]


So what are the odds that Britain decides to remain at the last minute, causing everyone else to hurriedly leave in disgust.

Withdrawal of A50 is certainly a possibility, and this has been reiterated a few times by EU Council members over the course of the summit. It seems that only the UK is stupid enough to put its pride that far above its needs, so objections to the withdrawal of the withdrawal would be limited to eye-rolling and tutting and 10-20 years of telling the UK to sit there and shut up in summit meetings.

But to be honest, only people who care about prosperity and peace in Europe should be taking pot shots at the UK here in this thread, not people who are just looking for a reason to trivialize the political issues of (to them) outsiders.
posted by ambrosen at 11:57 PM on September 20, 2018 [6 favorites]


It's all very sad.
posted by runcifex at 1:46 AM on September 21, 2018 [1 favorite]


If you think the people will rise up and get us out of this mess, then I suggest you watch this: Brexit Breakdown: Why are the Tories winning Walsall. It is utterly depressing. You get a sense of a populace so beaten down by poverty and cuts and hopelessness that they are sure "the system" is stacked against them no matter what they do and so their votes are meaningless.

With nobody to hold them accountable, politicians, working with their buddies across the Atlantic, are now free to ransack the UK economy and line their pockets. I think T. May is held in power not because she is part of this cabal, but that, not unlike Trump, she is a convenient idiot.

It is all very sad. If you have any love for Britain, as I do, then it makes you want to weep the way you weep for a loved one. It should also make us all terrified, no matter where you stand. If a democracy can be hijacked this easily and a country imploded, then we live in precarious times.
posted by vacapinta at 2:20 AM on September 21, 2018 [20 favorites]


Corbyn has also snookered himself by demanding Article 50 to be declared the day after the Brexit vote and then 3 line whipping his MP's to vote for it when it came to the commons.

Brexit is a disaster and he has tied Labour to it. The Tories would probably still win the next GE if called today while if he had opposed Brexit and had been able to campaign the last 18 months on what a disaster it is, Labour would probably be 20+ points ahead.
posted by PenDevil at 2:32 AM on September 21, 2018 [10 favorites]


Well Corbyn is too busy being for the many, not the few. No no, not you, EU citizens. I said the many, not everyone. A new socialist Britain, but only for proper Brits.
posted by Dysk at 2:41 AM on September 21, 2018 [4 favorites]


"A visitor from Mars might get the impression that Britain was being forced to leave the EU against its wishes, and therefore stubbornly insisting on as much as it could salvage, rather than choosing to leave in the confident knowledge that life outside would be much better."

From Chris Grey's Brexit Blog, which I recommend highly.
posted by Mocata at 2:48 AM on September 21, 2018 [3 favorites]


"Nobody from Labour was available to discuss Salzburg" - R4 Today, today.
posted by Devonian at 2:56 AM on September 21, 2018 [2 favorites]


I'd prefer we stayed in, I'd settle for a Norway-type arrangement, but suspect that after a lot of chaos we'll messily end up with a sloppy Canada-style arrangement. And a lot more ongoing chaos, and an ugly step down in general quality of life and healthcare, with this being blamed on the EU.

Which is also why we're here, after a largely successful campaign over several decades by libertarian-minded forces in the UK. Going down the list of EU Myths, it's not surprising to see that so many of them came out of the usual UK newspapers in some bygone year. The long-term softening of mallable minds, and the bouncing of David "I keep winning elections and referendum so I'll win this one ... oh fuck what I have done" Cameron into calling a referendum, won out and here we are.

And that list of EU Myths came to mind as soon as Macron was refreshingly honest in using the word "liars". It's one of the 'banned' words in the House of Commons, otherwise it would be used a lot. Continuously, maybe. Heck even now as I type this, Theresa is on the tele, preaching to the rump of voters she needs to win another general election and saying that the EU must sit down and spell out what they want. Which is her usual lie as the EU have been doing this all along (no cherrypicking, integrity of the four freedoms will remain, select from stay in, Norway or Canada or drop out, solve the Irish border problem which the UK created).

I know I can't and won't ever forgive those who voted leave, even the gullible or below-intelligence ones who immediately and unquestioningly believe the lies of their tabloid headline or what's written on the side of a bus. The country feels permanently, not temporarily, broken in a number of ways. {I started to type out some unpleasant local anecdotes here, but way too unpleasant and in a few cases horrific, so deleted} Anyway, I've written a thank you letter to Macron for saying that which should be said a lot more, and need to get back to work so I can sustainably earn my way out of England.
posted by Wordshore at 2:57 AM on September 21, 2018 [18 favorites]


Ian Dunt: Brussels just got serious:
Not many people saw that coming. We all expected Brussels to be saying nice things about the Chequers proposals until after the Tory party conference at least...

Most Brexit observers, therefore, presumed the future relationship document would be an abject fudge, gleefully conspired by all sides.

That's because it was in everyone's interest. The Brexiters wanted to at least secure Brexit, just get the bloody thing done, and have the real fight over future regulatory alignment from outside the EU. Europe just wanted a deal, because the chaos of no-deal would be intolerable to any sane person. Putting off the reality of Chequers' impossibility seemed the best way to do that, especially given May seemed so isolated and vulnerable at home...

But today's events suggest something has changed. You could see by May's expressions, which were even more strained than normal, that she had been taken by surprise. Things had fallen apart.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 3:03 AM on September 21, 2018 [2 favorites]


The Beeb is not impressed with Donald Tusk's latest antics. Personally, I think it's fucking brilliant. If May and her cronies are going to behave the way they are, then what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Only here, the jibes aren't baseless lies.
posted by Dysk at 3:26 AM on September 21, 2018 [5 favorites]


Anyway, I've written a thank you letter to Macron for saying that which should be said a lot more, and need to get back to work so I can sustainably earn my way out of England.
How is that going to work when we lose our free movement? I never harboured any real desire to leave Britain, I quite like it here, but at this point I'm resigned to making the best of it on these shores rather than trying to figure out going elsewhere once visas are required.
posted by winterhill at 3:36 AM on September 21, 2018




I know this is all awful and the UK is essentially threatening to jump out of the plane and sew together its parachute on the way down, but as a horrible filthy foreigner who moved here not all that long before the whole "hostile environment" policy, the removal of post-study work visas, the exorbitant Home Office application fees that rise every year, etc.....

...I am beside myself with glee to see terrible things happening to Theresa May. She can fuck right off back to her haunted art gallery or orphan gruel factory or whatever it was she did before all this.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 3:38 AM on September 21, 2018 [14 favorites]


"And the same for those EU supply chains dependent on the UK. Or those companies who export a ton to the UK. It's a pain all round."

This is not entirely accurate. The UK will still need to buy cars, trucks and airplanes even after those industries move much of their manufacturing facilities to the EU27.

So while the EU27 will lose some customers, they will still export a ton to the UK.

Essentially, the UK is throwing jobs and money at the EU27. See also: finance, government, service industries.

It's not pain all around, even though some EU27 countries will be hit harder than others. There are mixed feelings here in Central Europe, but many companies and states are looking forward to new contracts and jobs.
posted by romanb at 3:53 AM on September 21, 2018 [1 favorite]


Well Corbyn is too busy being for the many, not the few. No no, not you, EU citizens. I said the many, not everyone. A new socialist Britain, but only for proper Brits.

“For the many, not the (((few)))”.
posted by acb at 4:12 AM on September 21, 2018 [5 favorites]


Westminster Poll of Polls (21/09):
CON 39.3%
LAB 36.9%
LD 11.1%
GRN 4.1%
UKIP 3.5%

The second most ridiculous thing to me, after the fact that we are doggedly heading for Brexit, is that Labour somehow cannot get into a lead. I mean, I know why (Corbyn is pro-Brexit, also some people hate him), but it's still ridiculous that the Tories can be making things this shambolic and still be in the lead.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:43 AM on September 21, 2018 [6 favorites]


I know this is all awful and the UK is essentially threatening to jump out of the plane and sew together its parachute on the way down

It's very generous of you to assume we were planning on having a parachute, or even parts of a parachute.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:44 AM on September 21, 2018 [6 favorites]


The second most ridiculous thing to me, after the fact that we are doggedly heading for Brexit, is that Labour somehow cannot get into a lead. I mean, I know why (Corbyn is pro-Brexit, also some people hate him), but it's still ridiculous that the Tories can be making things this shambolic and still be in the lead.
Why would anyone vote for Labour at this point? They have no defined position on Brexit, which is (sadly) the most important political issue at this particular moment in time. Remain supporters think they're in favour of Leave, while Leave supporters think they're snooty metropolitan Remainers.

Personally, I find the Labour position patronising. They seem to have the view that here in the North, we're all thick diehard anti-immigration Leave fans, and if they come out in favour of Remain then we'll desert them in droves.
posted by winterhill at 5:04 AM on September 21, 2018 [7 favorites]


Theresa is making a statement at 1:45, in about 15 minutes time. Live on the BBC News channel. Most likely to be the usual line of "the EU is being unreasonable, we will walk away unless they compromise" utter cobblers aimed at the Conservative / libertarian / rabid rightwing voting demographics.

Am going to watch at least the start of it, just in case - unlikely - it's the PM throwing a wobbler (or the towel) with either "Time for another General Election" or "Fuck this shit, fuck you all, I'm off", in which case I'll be adding some more tags to this post and it'll take on a slightly wider scope.
posted by Wordshore at 5:31 AM on September 21, 2018 [2 favorites]


Thanks for the heads-up. I'll order my stuff priced in dollars before she opens her mouth.
posted by winterhill at 5:35 AM on September 21, 2018 [1 favorite]


Downing Street has insisted the statement will be an update on the negotiations. It is highly unlikely that May is announcing her departure or announcing a general election, Number 10 sources have already categorically denied this. - from the Guardian
posted by EndsOfInvention at 5:38 AM on September 21, 2018


the UK is essentially threatening to jump out of the plane and sew together its parachute on the way down

That's too much like a workable plan. As I understand it at cabinet strategy meetings now they just sing the Westlife classic 'Flying without Wings' over and over till the sound is drowned out by weeping.
posted by biffa at 5:41 AM on September 21, 2018 [1 favorite]


From the Sky News political editor: "Metaphor alert: there’s currently no power in the room at No 10 where the PM is going to make her speech. Might delay things a bit."
posted by EndsOfInvention at 5:52 AM on September 21, 2018 [5 favorites]


Theresa is running late (possibly stuffing all the valuables she can find in Number Ten into her fake leopardskin suitcase from Matalan), so filling in time by reminding self of the effects of the Suez Crisis on Britain and British politics.
posted by Wordshore at 5:52 AM on September 21, 2018


And here we go.

"...That would make a mockery of the referendum we had two years ago..."
"...even worse, Northern Ireland would remain part of the customs union..."
"...anything which fails to respect the referendum would be a bad deal, and no deal is better than a bad deal..."

Grief, this is insincere, even by Theresa's standards. Several more mentions of Northern Ireland. "...unless the Northern Ireland assembly agree..." (um, is that the body that hasn't been sitting for a long time now?)

"Throughout this process, I have treated the EU with nothing but respect." HA HA HA HA c'mon, we aren't all gullible tabloid readers, Theresa.

"...Even in the event of no deal, your rights [the 3 million EU citizens here] will be protected..."
"...To deny the legitimacy [of the referendum] threatens the public trust in democracy..."
"...I will not overturn the result of the referendum, nor will I break up my country..."

And ... she's just pretty much stormed off, like my cousin's six year old son does when he's been told that he can't eat in McDonalds every day and has to eat vegetables.

What an utter embarrasment of a deluded, lying, pathetic, Prime Minister.
posted by Wordshore at 6:13 AM on September 21, 2018 [16 favorites]


Oh Christ we're back to no deal is better than a bad deal again.

At this rate she'll be repeating "strong and stable" on a loop for the rest of the year
posted by dng at 6:14 AM on September 21, 2018 [3 favorites]


Nothing new. I listened to it on Radio 5 who couldn't get back to Simon Mayo's film review programme quickly enough, which tells a story about the importance of what was said.

There was a lot of talk about the "legitimacy" of the referendum result and no mention made of the clear and serious breaches of electoral law during the referendum campaign which have undermined that legitimacy somewhat.

Lots of talk of "no counter-proposal was made by the EU" when the EU have been making a clear and consistent counter-proposal - Norway-style EEA membership - all along.

At this point, you have to wonder what May and family stand to gain from a no-deal Brexit.
posted by winterhill at 6:19 AM on September 21, 2018 [4 favorites]


"...Even in the event of no deal, your rights [the 3 million EU citizens here] will be protected..." - part of that is, likely, to give the impression of taking a moral high ground oh as I type this that's exactly what the BBC journalist says.

But part of it as well is the fear that, if those 3 million largely younger and healthier EU citizens are kicked out of the UK, then EU countries would be likely to respond with "Okay, fine; in that case, you are having back the 1 million plus retired ex-pats, with their complex health needs because of their seniority, and good luck with those suddenly being dumped on your underfunded, badly stretched National Health Service." (which will also by default be suddenly even more stretched as the remaining EU workers within it have gone)
posted by Wordshore at 6:19 AM on September 21, 2018 [9 favorites]


The UK has already jumped out of the plane. Right now it’s busy setting fire to the parts of the parachute and kicking anyone who claims they might be needed.
posted by Artw at 6:20 AM on September 21, 2018 [3 favorites]


At this point, you have to wonder what May and family stand to gain from a no-deal Brexit.

They’re all going to make out like bandits.

A no-deal Brexit could make most of us poorer – and Jacob Rees-Mogg richer
posted by Artw at 6:22 AM on September 21, 2018 [6 favorites]


A representation of the cliff edge, being drawn in real time.
posted by Wordshore at 6:27 AM on September 21, 2018 [4 favorites]


The UK has already jumped out of the plane. Right now it’s busy setting fire to the parts of the parachute and kicking anyone who claims they might be needed.

They don't want parachutes because they all believe they can throw themselves at the ground and miss
posted by dng at 6:28 AM on September 21, 2018


From a friend on Twitter:
I think this is the vibe that Theresa May was trying to channel...
posted by EndsOfInvention at 6:29 AM on September 21, 2018 [4 favorites]


If that really is what the Tories think respect looks like, it explains an awful lot about the way they treat everyone else. And each other, come to think of it.
posted by Grangousier at 6:56 AM on September 21, 2018 [2 favorites]


A representation of the cliff edge, being drawn in real time.
I'm glad I've got a full tank of petrol, because this'll be a good excuse for them to immediately stick another 2p a litre on the pump price tomorrow morning.

In the event of a 'no deal', an immediate and drastic fall in the value of GBP is going to be the first effect many people see. The devaluation over the past two years has been bad enough in terms of increasing the cost of living for ordinary people, especially for fuel which is priced in USD on the world markets.

The current weak GBP is good for exporters, but we have vanishingly few people employed in making and selling stuff nowadays, preferring to hang our financial future on the nebulous and fickle "services sector". It's good for tourism - they aren't all coming here for the bloody weather.

But at what point do we say "hang on, enough is enough, we need to peg this thing to a more stable currency or there'll be chaos"?
posted by winterhill at 6:58 AM on September 21, 2018


...I am beside myself with glee to see terrible things happening to Theresa May. She can fuck right off back to her haunted art gallery or orphan gruel factory or whatever it was she did before all this.

I think I'm one of the last people to get one of those post-study work visas, and I couldn't get citizenship because I didn't have the 'right' visa status for about four years. (I shared a visa status with many brown people and probably a bunch of Polish and Romanian people as well, for the ultimate sin.) We will not meditate upon how much money I've given the Home Office for the privilege of having a ream of paperwork processed every year or two. (Under current exchange rates, it works about €5, of course.) I am definitely with you on the glee, May has been ruining my life for years before she became PM!

But mostly I'm deeply, deeply sad, and heartbroken for a nation I'm somehow still in love with, and incredibly sad and worried for my friends who are there. Especially the ones with severe health problems and not much money.
posted by kalimac at 7:29 AM on September 21, 2018 [9 favorites]


I don't think that May stands to gain anything particularly from this - she doesn't strike me as being the "complicated offshore financial instrument" type, from her lack of imagination as much as anything else.

She was told to do something several years ago by David Cameron (i.e. reduce immigration and encourage existing immigrants to leave) and she's never really stopped doing that thing. While Home Secretary, she pushed the Home Office to its current levels of sadistic depravity and I think that she sees the politics of Brexit - to some extent correctly - as about immigration and racism and nothing more. She was given the task of being a giant racist piece of shit at the Home Office, which she took to with gusto, and sadly being bumped up to PM hasn't made her reassess her priorities in the slightest. She's not attempting to balance her small-minded and evil racism against any wider sense of the national interest.

I think history will judge her very harshly. Racism and xenophobia brought her to where she is now, but cowardice and shame keep her there, a roadblock to any progress at all. It's clear that she's fatally weakened and has been for a long time, but her stubborn pride and lack of bravery prevent her from doing the decent thing and standing down. That would be bad enough at any point in the history of a country, but there couldn't have been be a worse time for her to awkwardly pretend that her position is tenable.

[I] need to get back to work so I can sustainably earn my way out of England.

How is that going to work when we lose our free movement?

To the best of my knowledge, most third countries issue their visa and immigration requirements on a country-by-country basis (so "French, British and German passport holders moving to Hypothetistan must live and work here for 5 years before applying for permanent residence" rather than "all EU citizens moving to Hypothetistan must live and work here for 5 years...").

So it shouldn't have too much of an impact on moving to other continents, if you've ever fancied sheep herding in Patagonia or whatever. Although your savings won't provide as much of a cushion for settling in, if the pound has crashed.

Moving to an EU country will be harder, but not impossible, as Britons will likely have to fulfill the requirements for third-country citizens, which are, well, by default a bit harder than "you have the legal right to live and work here".

Requirements will vary between countries (as they already do for naturalisation, a subject that I looked into pretty intensively back in 2016) and it'll probably be a case of getting married to someone, or making a large Euro-denominated investment in property or business (and see again re value of the pound), or getting sponsored by an employer because you have a unique skill. Qualified native speakers will probably still have opportunities to teach English in Europe, for example.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 8:43 AM on September 21, 2018 [6 favorites]


Meanwhile, the beeb is giving puff piece interviews to nazis, about how stylish they are and how much money they've raised to take a ship into the Mediterranean and "arrest illegal migrants and sink their boats".
posted by lucidium at 8:52 AM on September 21, 2018 [1 favorite]


So it shouldn't have too much of an impact on moving to other continents, if you've ever fancied sheep herding in Patagonia or whatever. Although your savings won't provide as much of a cushion for settling in, if the pound has crashed.
If you fancy sheep herding in Patagonia, you've chosen one of the few countries whose currency is performing even worse than the pound, so you're lucky. :)
posted by winterhill at 9:06 AM on September 21, 2018 [4 favorites]


If you fancy sheep herding in Patagonia, you've chosen one of the few countries whose currency is performing even worse than the pound, so you're lucky. :)

I was thinking of Chilean Patagonia, but that's a good point.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 9:20 AM on September 21, 2018 [1 favorite]


With a name like chappell I'm sure you'd be welcome in Welsh Patagonia.
posted by biffa at 10:06 AM on September 21, 2018 [1 favorite]


Anyway, I live in a place that the lazy media would term a "Leave Area", based on the fact that it's north of the Watford Gap, relatively poor and doesn't have Pret a Manger. Oh, and the fact that on one single day in June 2016, based on a dodgy campaign and no concrete information on the consequences, locals voted by 54.7% to "leave the European Union" on a 70.7% turnout. We are meant to believe that this result is frozen in aspic, that no one has changed their mind since that day and never will.

Based on the fact that I live here and talk to people, I can say with some confidence that this is not the case. Most people I know who are economically active in any way - whether they are a small business owner, contractor or just, you know, have a job - are concerned about the current state of play. A lot of people are quite openly saying they wish there could be a second vote. In fact, the only people who are still die-hard fans of Leave in any way are the retired and otherwise inactive. My grandad is a Leave supporter, but he's 88 and in a care home and without putting too fine a point on it, he ain't going to see the result of Brexit.

Any competent government would be keeping the ear to the ground and doing research and polling (in all areas of the country). They would have some kind of inkling that there was a shift in opinion starting to form even among people who are stereotyped as Leavers because of where they live or their social class. I find it tough to believe that May and the Cabinet don't know there's a change in the air, which makes me wonder why they are sticking to the script so fanatically.
posted by winterhill at 10:18 AM on September 21, 2018 [8 favorites]


@ChrisBrosnahan:

I'd have far more respect for Theresa May if she just said "We've shit the bed and don't know what to do. I want my mum."
posted by Wordshore at 10:33 AM on September 21, 2018 [12 favorites]


@GtotheP:

Elon Musk has arrived outside Downing Street with a submarine.
posted by Wordshore at 10:40 AM on September 21, 2018 [16 favorites]


I'm in the US, so I don't know. Is anyone on the left campaigning on "We'll get us back in"?
posted by lumpenprole at 10:46 AM on September 21, 2018


There are pro-remain left groups, but Labour is currently run & controlled by accelerationist crypto-brexiteers who are quite happy to sit back and let the Tories f*ck the country because when the inevitable (in their minds) future Labour victory comes they’ll be free to create a socialist utopia unfettered by those pesky EU rules.

The fact that a hard crash out of the EU brings with it the likely rise of the fascist right in the UK as a result doesn't seem to occur to them. All these disparate politics groups think Brexit is going to give them their opportunity to bring about their own personal idea of utopia & they're all wrong. God I hate accelerationists - at least you know where you stand with the money grubbing opportunists.
posted by pharm at 2:16 PM on September 21, 2018 [34 favorites]


don't blame me i voted for chaos with ed miliband
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 3:04 PM on September 21, 2018 [2 favorites]


I am going to add this once more, because if you want to understand why the Conservatives are such a self-destructive back-stabbing party, you need to understand The 1922 Committee.

In 1922 there was a major back-bench revolt among the Tories, and it resulted in the committee being set up the next year. The idea is that if (I think) 15% of the back bench have submitted sealed complaints about the Prime Minister, then there is an immediate vote of confidence and possibly a new leadership election.

Note that this is a power only bestowed upon back-benchers, so if you want to survive as a Tory in Number 10, you need to appoint your enemies to your cabinet. That way they're kept away from the 1922, and thus are not a threat to your premiership. It also means the more successful your party is, the more complaints are needed to trigger this. That may have been one reason to hold the snap election: with a safer margin, May may have been able to reshuffle her cabinet to something less of a circular firing squad.

This is a system that rewards attention-seeking gossips and complainers over talented public servants, and it is one reason in a long line of reasons why nobody should ever vote a Tory into parliament, ever.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 3:15 PM on September 21, 2018 [17 favorites]


Here's a summary of the Tory leadership rules. Any MP can send a no-confidence letter, not just a backbencher, if 15% of them do it there's a challenge. The system was introduced in 1998 to replace the previous system of a "leadership challenge" where it took just 3 MPs to trigger a challenge: one to stand, a proposer and a seconder. The media seem oblivious to the change and keep breathlessly debating whether so-and-so will "mount a leadership challenge", which they haven't been able to do for 20 years.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 9:10 PM on September 21, 2018 [1 favorite]


Apparently May's humiliation in Salzburg was the DUP's doing. She's prepared to have different regulations in NI to allow it to continue in harmony with the EU market, as the EU has said it will accept, but the DUP refuses to let her and explicitly torpedoed her attempts to do so at the summit. (Link goes to The Sun, unforch, but it's their exclusive.)

This isn't the first time the DUP has vetoed progress made at an EU meeting and horribly embarrassed May in the most pbblic way possible.
posted by Devonian at 7:27 AM on September 22, 2018 [3 favorites]


About 90% of Labour members say they would vote to remain in the EU if there were a referendum now, while 86% back a public vote on the outcome of the negotiations, with just 8% against. Support for another referendum stands at 93% in London among Labour members, 82% in the rest of the south, and 86% in the north. The poll also revealed that should a general election be called, 74% of members want a commitment for a new referendum included in Labour’s manifesto.
The Observer reports from a Sunday interview with Good Cop Tom Watson, "Tom Watson tells Corbyn: ‘We must back members on new Brexit vote’" (whence came the above numbers, a poll of about 1000 members):
“If our membership speak and call for a people’s vote on the deal, then we have to respect it.”
The familiar Labour bait-and-switch, perhaps, but The Sunday Mirror has managed to wring this, like blood from a stone: "Jeremy Corbyn WILL accept second referendum if Labour conference votes for it" [TW: giant photo of disaster-capitalist stick insect].
[JC]: “What comes out of conference I will adhere to. But I’m not calling for a second referendum. I hope we will agree that the best way of resolving this is a General Election.

“But I was elected to empower the members of the party. So if conference makes a decision I will not walk away from it and I will act accordingly.”
Chequers will not pass Parliament and neither will No Deal. Unless May's red lines shift, these are the ingredients for a no confidence vote and perhaps a general election.

The EU is ready to extend Article 50 in circumstances such as a GE.

So this could be it: a way out. Significant pressure for a People's Vote - which I hope absolutely everyone here is supporting - at the Labour Party Conference could decide everything.
posted by Quagkapi at 4:30 PM on September 22, 2018 [4 favorites]


Times: Theresa May’s team plot snap election to save Brexit
posted by Chrysostom at 9:41 PM on September 22, 2018


The more I see from baggymp (or Tom Watson, if you prefer) the more I like him.
posted by Dysk at 3:50 AM on September 23, 2018 [1 favorite]


Double-digit Remain margins among Tory voters in Tory constituencies. (Faisal Islam tweet thread.)
posted by Devonian at 10:41 AM on September 23, 2018 [1 favorite]


I wouldn't get too optimistic about the Labour conference forcing a meaningful "People's Vote". Both LabourList and ConservativeHome seem to think they'll try to maintain as much abiguity as possible:
...any motion that actually comes to a vote will be the product of what is called compositing – agreeing between the 125 different people and organisations who have tabled various competing Brexit motions on something that supposedly is a workable meld of their ideas. That leaves plenty of opportunity for further ambiguity; be it naming another referendum as one of a range of possible further options, or hedging it about with rules, tests and hypotheticals.
Also while we have the same argument in every Brexit thread, these events make me even more skeptical that the EU thinks it's possible to overcome the problems at their end to canceling Brexit. (Unanimous agreement, Article 50 saying explicitly that Article 49 is the only way back, the requirement to join the single currency). When the EU was trying to persuade Ireland to have a second referendum on Lisbon, they offered concessions and written guarantees; not threats and insults. They wouldn't be deliberately humiliating the British Prime Minister if they thought there was a serious prospect of a friendly reunification. They're doing it because they think all that's left is playing hardball to get the best exit terms.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 12:30 PM on September 23, 2018


I'm in the US, so I don't know. Is anyone on the left campaigning on "We'll get us back in"?

Someone should register the domain: EU2050.uk or something.

The problem is that, if cliff-edge Brexit is (as appears increasingly plausible) a disaster-capitalist plot to hijack a modern European democracy and turn it into a serf plantation for its absentee owners, then 29 March will see a blitzkrieg attack on the EU's legacy. Expect Henry VIII powers to be used to put regulations to the torch, from workers' rights (“labour market flexibility”) to environmental and food safety (the Precautionary Principle, on which EU approaches are based, will almost certainly go), and a Trumpian trade agreement with the US to be signed very rapidly, gutting the NHS and bringing a steady supply of hormone-treated beef and chlorinated chicken, undercutting local suppliers unless they lower their standards. Unrest due to food/medicine shortages and/or increasing crime due to permanent austerity and police staffing attrition could also lead to Tough New Crime Laws, including possibly bringing back the death penalty (a perennial favourite of Sun/Daily Mail readers, and slightly more popular than blue passports with Leave voters).

On Leave Day, Britain will start moving at speed away from EU norms, dynamiting the edifices of the old order and building over their ruins. The prospect of rejoining the EU at some future date, once the Empire nostalgics have all shuffled off their mortal coils and grey-templed woke millennials wield executive power, will require reversing many of these measures: expropriating US health-insurance companies in violation of international treaties, banning a lot of the cheap, satisfying food that people have gotten used to over the past few decades, disarming the police and the criminals (assuming the US trade agreement harmonises firearms laws), and so on. It'll be far more of an uphill battle than stopping the process is now.
posted by acb at 4:20 PM on September 23, 2018 [2 favorites]


This isn't the first time the DUP has vetoed progress made at an EU meeting and horribly embarrassed May in the most pbblic way possible.

“I cannot help it,” said the Scorpion, “that is my nature.”
posted by acb at 4:21 PM on September 23, 2018 [3 favorites]


Chequers will not pass Parliament and neither will No Deal.

Wouldn't No Deal be what happens if nothing passes Parliament?
posted by acb at 4:30 PM on September 23, 2018 [2 favorites]


Britain will start moving at speed away from EU norms

Which is of course one of the main advantages of the whole fiasco for those pushing it - but one item on the long list of fucking moronic things about Brexit is that if any UK company still wants to deal with EU27, any goods or services will still need to be compliant with EU norms.
posted by jontyjago at 2:35 AM on September 24, 2018 [2 favorites]


Yes, inexorably, if we do nothing, No Deal is the default, but I assume MPs who do not want this (hopefully a majority) would not sit on their hands while the clock ticks.

This would mean, for example, emergency requests for extension, dropping May's unjustified red lines, promising more concessions, if even only temporary, or votes of no confidence in May.

No Deal looks like Project Fear come real, but much worse, and nobody but nobody who is remotely serious and not a disaster fantasist wants it to happen.

Meanwhile, I doubt the public would be silent, either. I've heard rumours of a General Strike if No Deal looks likely, which might be wishful thinking but to me sounds proportionate.
posted by Quagkapi at 2:42 AM on September 24, 2018 [1 favorite]


Ian Dunt again: Labour's People's Vote stitch up:
It's as cynical a manoeuvre as you could imagine: Taking local delegates from a grassroots campaign, inviting them smilingly into the jaws of the party beast, at a late night meeting, with press outside and politicians inside, and working them over until you've churned out a motion which is actually weaker than the policy you had before. Then trotting out happily the next morning to the radio studio and really plunging the knife in...

However, there is one glimpse of hope among the mess... Put together, this removes two obstacles - ending free movement and removing Labour from state aid - to single market membership. The party seems to be removing almost any obstacle to a soft Brexit - Norway plus customs union.

This would also be much easier to negotiate with the EU in terms of time and fits into one of the pre-existing categories on offer. It might even be so attractive and simple that, if a Labour government did get into power before Brexit Day, it would extend Article 50 to negotiate it.

So that seems to be the Labour leadership's new approach this morning: cutting down the grassroots campaign for a People's Vote, but moving, slowly and subtly, towards accepting soft Brexit.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 3:54 AM on September 24, 2018 [3 favorites]


"No Deal looks like Project Fear come real, but much worse, and nobody but nobody who is remotely serious and not a disaster fantasist wants it to happen."

Unfortunately there is a large scale misunderstanding (misinformation?) about a deal with the EU. Here in the 27 there is pretty much only talk about the kind of future relationship to be had, whereas in the UK the negotiations are presented as deal making ('Lets divorce but share the house and share the kitchen and by the way your family is not allowed in the living room and you will cover the rent. What's your best counter offer?'). The deal as commonly understood in the UK is a total myth and only hardcore Brexiters and remainers seem to understand this.
posted by romanb at 5:59 AM on September 24, 2018 [6 favorites]


The biggest issue is that there are 63,182,000 of us and 63,182,000 different opinions on Brexit.

Negotiating with "the UK" is impossible because we all want different things. Negotiating with the UK Government is impossible because they all want different things, even as we're well into the second half and waiting to see how much injury time is given, to use a football metaphor.
posted by winterhill at 6:51 AM on September 24, 2018 [1 favorite]


Exactly. And somehow, despite a population of 445,714,098 and 24 official languages, the EU has offered the UK the precise options of Remain, a Canada-style FTA or Norway. Norway or Remain would solve the Irish border. Canada would leave that unsolved but at least we'd all know what's left to do. Instead we have Chequers.
posted by romanb at 7:12 AM on September 24, 2018 [3 favorites]


The problem with the Irish border is that the UK Government have promised two incompatible things to two interest groups.

The DUP and other NI unionists have been promised that there will be no differing customs arrangements between NI and the rest of the UK (aka "no border in the Irish Sea").

The EU and Irish government have been promised that there will be no border infrastructure on the NI/Irish border. You can see the problem.

Maybe some progress has been made on this, but I tuned out of the constant dull thud-thud of Brexit news months ago. Too depressing, and not enough new news, just the same old arguing.
posted by winterhill at 7:46 AM on September 24, 2018 [4 favorites]


The only progress on the Irish Border Question is that post-Salzburg, May promised to produce a worked-out proposal. At the same time, she said the EU was being disrespectful for not producing its own worked-out proposal (which, of course, is bollocks), and virtually everything she's said about the Brexit process to date has been wrong, missing the point, or outright untrue, so who knows.
posted by Devonian at 8:11 AM on September 24, 2018 [1 favorite]


The problem with the Irish border is that the UK Government have promised two incompatible things to two interest groups.

They are compatible: both the Norway model and the Remain option are on the table and would maintain the status quo on border issues.
posted by romanb at 10:49 AM on September 24, 2018 [1 favorite]


Norway wouldn't. Norway has a proper border with Sweden, because Norway's not in the customs union, and thus the border is highly bureaucratic and intrusive. Here's a Newsnight report on it.

The Brexiters (well, some of them) are fond of saying that Norway would solve the Irish bord3er issue. It would not.
posted by Devonian at 11:23 AM on September 24, 2018 [4 favorites]


If Norway is not good enough, what short of EU membership could possibly work?
posted by romanb at 11:47 AM on September 24, 2018


I see you’re beginning to understand the problem.
posted by schadenfrau at 11:48 AM on September 24, 2018 [17 favorites]


I've seen it as Norway+Customs. But whats the point, really?
posted by vacapinta at 11:59 AM on September 24, 2018 [1 favorite]


Lest a full 48 hours pass before my bait-and-switch comment bears out:

Monday, 9:14: "McDonnell: new Brexit referendum should not include remain option"

Monday, 19:57: "Keir Starmer: second Brexit vote could contain remain option"
“The meeting was very careful not to define the question, because we don’t know if we’re dealing with a deal or no deal – but equally, it was not ruling anything out, and the words ‘on the deal’ were removed, to emphasise the openness of that question,” he said.

“Certainly, there was no ruling out of anything, and no ruling out of remain as an option. That was clearly the mood of the room, and in fact that’s reflected in the motion.”

McDonnell later sought to clarify his remarks, saying: “Keir is right. We are keeping all the options on the table.” But he has repeatedly stressed the risks of a new vote, saying it could embolden the far right.
As if Brexit - a far right project itself - wasn't emboldening the far right every single day.

Nothing less than a manifesto pledge, please.
posted by Quagkapi at 1:13 PM on September 24, 2018


I see you’re beginning to understand the problem.


Indeed, more so than many Brexiters who reply to "It's WTO, Norway+ or Remain" with "We can negotiate something better than any of those."

No, you really cannot. There is no negotiation to be had around that.Those are the options.

One will cripple the country for a generation, one is utterly pointless, and one lets us carry on with our economy, power and status in the world's markets intact.
posted by Devonian at 2:22 PM on September 24, 2018 [5 favorites]


Remember how everyone was saying "calm down dear!" about the worries EU citizens had about their migration status going forward? Well now there's this.

It isn't "ending discrimination" to take rights away from people. At best that's leveling down to equality, which is bullshit. But really, it's just bullshit because immigration isn't (or doesn't have to be) a zero sum game. Non-EU workers and commonwealth citizens aren't being helped by rights being taken away from other groups.
posted by Dysk at 1:21 AM on September 25, 2018 [3 favorites]


As if Brexit - a far right project itself - wasn't emboldening the far right every single day.
I have noticed in recent weeks and months an uptick in far-right campaigning. A friend in a North East town has started receiving pamphlets from something called For Britain, which is apparently miserable contrarian Morrissey's new favourite political party. The leaflets are complete bollocks - they pretend to be a local newsletter and talk about the 'crime wave' in this little town, which is apparently being caused by Sharia law or something? (Less than 0.5% of the town's population is Muslim.)

It is relatively unnoticed by the media in their insulated little city centre bubbles, but the far-right are starting to up their presence in areas deemed vulnerable to their bullshit - mostly impoverished, 'left behind' northern towns. I have little faith that Labour will notice, either.
posted by winterhill at 2:46 AM on September 25, 2018 [7 favorites]


I'm sorry but Labour's failure in all of this is what makes me the most angry. Obviously I hate all the Tories and some more than others. But WTF Labour???? There are no expressions in the English language to express my anger and desperation.
posted by mumimor at 6:21 AM on September 25, 2018 [7 favorites]


I've just come across this Twitter post by a Brexiteer MP complaining about a "protectionist EU racket" and how fruit will be cheaper once we leave as we won't have to pay the massive EU tariffs.

The first few replies point out that we are already paying 0% tariffs on the vast majority of fruit imported from outside the EU due to FTAs - but just to clarify for me as it is not explicitly stated - when he talks about a FTA between us and South Africa / Mexico / Chile etc, that's an FTA between the EU and those countries isn't it? Which we are benefiting from as a member - it's not a separate agreement between the UK and those countries, right? And we'll therefore no longer benefit from it after March?

If this is the case, then not only is he lying about the "massive tariffs" as we're not paying any, we're only not paying precisely because we are a member of the EU.

I'm sure that none of this is news to a lot of people but it's all so destructive, dishonest and fucking relentless that it makes my poor little brain hurt. And I'm with mumimor - I seriously will never forgive Corbyn for just fucking standing there and letting this go ahead with saying a fucking thing against it. Jesus.
posted by jontyjago at 7:14 AM on September 25, 2018 [4 favorites]


If this is the case, then not only is he lying about the "massive tariffs" as we're not paying any, we're only not paying precisely because we are a member of the EU.

That was a great Twitter takedown and I've forwarded it to a few people. It is all true - while the Brexiters claim that Brexit means we can do better deals with African countries, for example, the truth is quite the opposite. You can't do better than a zero-tariff free trade agreement, and we'll lose all those the moment we leave the EU for WTO rules.

And yes, these people are lying. If you clicked on the Newsnight segment on the Norwegian/Sweden border, you'll have seen the BBC opened it - without comment - with a clip of David Davis saying that Norway was the answer.

They lie and they lie and they lie.
posted by Devonian at 8:33 AM on September 25, 2018 [2 favorites]


While we die and die and die.
posted by dng at 12:51 PM on September 25, 2018 [1 favorite]


I see you’re beginning to understand the problem

The UK voted Brexit, not I, nor anyone in the EU27.
posted by romanb at 1:22 PM on September 25, 2018


Norway is already pretty much the best that the EU has to offer. For those in the UK that don't consider it good enough, and remain is therefore the only real alternative: it's surely time to get serious about ... doing something?
posted by romanb at 1:28 PM on September 25, 2018


The UK voted Brexit, not I, nor anyone in the EU27.
I've already told you that "the UK" didn't vote for Brexit. I get the impression that some of our friends over the Channel believe that in 2016 we changed from a modern European nation into an island of bigots, shaking our fists at Johnny Foreigner off the White Cliffs of Dover, and that our position is irredeemable.

The truth is far more complicated. The majority for Leave was very narrow and the issues were poorly understood. The cut-through message in 2016 was that Brexit would increase funding for the NHS. The NHS is understandably popular and many poorly-informed voters plumped for Leave on that basis. The Leave campaign also engaged in serious breaches of electoral law during the campaign and there are question marks over Russian involvement.

There was no grassroots movement among the British people to leave the EU, this was a calculated and cultivated campaign over many years by the right-wing, the media and corporate interests to destabilise the UK to further their interests.

It's frustrating to read views from our European friends along the lines of "you all voted for it, it's your problem". Your dismissive attitude towards an entire country, many (most?) of whom don't want this, is disingenuous at best. The right-wing interests who cultivated Brexit are coming for your countries, too. Just because it happens to be us suffering it at present doesn't mean it's not your issue too.

It's everyone's problem, in short.
posted by winterhill at 2:27 AM on September 26, 2018 [11 favorites]


I don't think anyone thinks the UK suddenly turned into an irrational Johnny Foreigner-hating cesspool. A significant portion of the country has been that way for a significant period of time - as long as any of us have been alive, at least. Anti-EU sentiment is not new in the UK. There's a reason the EU euromyths page contains so many references to the UK tabloid press - the most widely circulated newspapers in the UK have had an irrationally hostile attitude to the EU, and regularly outright fabricated stories to discredit them, for a long time. And the UK public has lapped it up. At what point does the widespread sentiment go from being a "calculated and cultivated campaign" to being a grassroots one? Because that sentiment is there, widespread, amongst regular people, and has been for a long time. A lot of the general public are right-wing - it isn't just some term to refer to the Tory Parliamentary party and Murdoch and his ilk. These forces may exist in the rest of Europe as well, but they haven't taken hold, taken over, and captured the public imagination like they did here, decades and decades ago. If it's the same forces that were brought to bear everywhere, then they found exceedingly fertile soil for their ideas in the UK, in a way that hasn't been true to the same extent elsewhere.
posted by Dysk at 3:25 AM on September 26, 2018 [5 favorites]


It's like claiming the Daily Mail is a laughing stock with no credibility. That ought to be true, but it's one of the top three most widely circulated and read papers in the UK (after the Sun and the Metro, ugh). There is something fucking wrong here, and the opinions of Daily Mail readers are their own as well as their newspaper's.
posted by Dysk at 3:30 AM on September 26, 2018 [3 favorites]


Nothing less than a manifesto pledge, please.

[Twitter] Comments from Rebecca Long-Bailey, Labour’s Shadow Business Sec on Labour’s commitment to another “hypothetical” referendum.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 3:37 AM on September 26, 2018


Corbyn's Labour are not fit to lead in the current political context. He's indistinguishable, in terms of policy at least, from his most accelerationist brocialist supporters.
posted by Dysk at 3:41 AM on September 26, 2018


Where to start? The Euromyths page is heavy on UK tabloid content because it's on the European Commission in the UK web site and is aimed at an English-speaking UK audience. The dates of the entries on that page show that there has been a concerted campaign over many years to discredit the EU decision-making process in the UK and it's all been leading up to the mess we find ourselves in now.

Who owns and operates these newspapers? Rupert Murdoch, the shady Barclay brothers, the Viscount Rothermere, until recently porn creep Richard "Dirty" Desmond. All wealthy individuals who are part of a network of the super-rich who stand to benefit from a destabilisation of the UK and cutbacks in living and working conditions for ordinary people, and all people who have megaphones to shout their views louder than we can shout our own.

I refuse to believe the people of this country are fundamentally any more or less right-wing than the people of any other European country. Germany has a far-right party as the third largest in the Bundestag, Sweden has the far-right in its Parliament. Austria, Hungary and Poland have far-right governments. Outside of Europe, the United States has a far-right President. Are all these countries full of bigots, or is there a systematic exploitation of people's declining living conditions and fears for the future by oligarchs and the right-wing across the Western world?

The cancerous spread of the Right is not a uniquely British problem, it's a global issue right now and something that needs to be fought, rather than simply dismissing a country as being full of rightists and beyond redemption.
posted by winterhill at 3:57 AM on September 26, 2018 [3 favorites]


"It could happen anywhere" doesn't mean it's equally likely to happen everywhere. The conditions, the context, are hugely important. It's nothing inherent in the Brits, but it is inherent to the state z the form, of Britain today, and the forces that have shaped it over the last few decades. A nice shorthand for this is to say that it is inherent to modern Britain. There are right wing parties and governments in many places, yes, but only the UK is currently in the process of leaving the EU. Only Britain does not have a major party supportive of EU membership. There is something uniquely wrong here. No, it isn't British genetics or any such bullshit. It's decades of democratic policy - gutting the social welfare system, lowering taxes and public spending, poor education, low minimun wages, very little regulation or accountability for the press, little to no government spending for independent media, lacking antitrust and monopoly legislationetc, etc. But the result of all this is that Britain has a problem with the EU that is based in widespread public opinion, that is not seen elsewhere. People are ultimately responsible for their own views, for where they place their trust, and for how they vote.
posted by Dysk at 4:19 AM on September 26, 2018 [4 favorites]


I refuse to believe the people of this country are fundamentally any more or less right-wing than the people of any other European country.

A substantial number of the commentors on Daily Mail stories, especially those with no avatar or ID, are system responses, Mail staffers or paid contractors. On some days, it's over 50%, even 75%.

The project creating them was set up in 2015 (under Dacre) and is codenamed Abyss.
posted by acb at 4:19 AM on September 26, 2018 [6 favorites]


And no, it isn't that the UK is full of irredeemable right-wing bigots. But it's also not the case that the UK is full of sensitive lefties who were duped about Brexit. Yes, the consequences were downplayed, but let's not overlook that a substantial portion of the leave vote was people walking in, with their eyes wide open, precisely to vote to stick it to Johnny Foreigner, and kick him out. They might be wrong about the economic consequences of that, but they weren't wrong about what they were voting for.
posted by Dysk at 4:23 AM on September 26, 2018 [8 favorites]


A lot of them were voting “Leave” in the belief that it'd make all the non-English leave. One can believe that they just meant Vytautas and Agnieszka at the local Pret, and had no problem with their Pakistani and West Indian neighbours, though, let's face it, it'd be intellectually dishonest to assume this.

A lot of people voted Leave because they imagined that it'd mean putting all the darkies on boats and sending them back to Bongo Bongo Land or wherever. From which it follows that a lot of people are as thick as mince.
posted by acb at 4:48 AM on September 26, 2018 [3 favorites]


very little regulation or accountability for the press, little to no government spending for independent media
This is a very good point and something of my 'area'. In many European countries, France in particular, there's a lot of government funding and support for independent community radio stations. Many stations have their core costs covered, meaning staff can spend their time and limited resources on producing programming and finding stories to report.

In the UK, 300+ stations have to fight for less than £500,000 in DCMS funding through a competitive process that leaves most stations without any public funding at all. Priority in DCMS funding is given to stations applying for funds to pay someone to sell advertising or some other business development role, rather than funds to produce actual programming.

It means that the vast majority of community media outlets, aside from having to deal with technical issues like underpowered transmitters and poor signal coverage, have to spend most of their time and resources on finding funds to keep the lights on rather than reporting on issues that matter to the community they serve. It leads to amateurish programming and hours of music automation, rather than a meaningful service because most of the time is spent applying for grants or pleading for sponsors.

In typical British fashion, they pay lip service to independent media by saying "yes, we licence independent community radio stations" but then systematically underpower and underfund them so they can't do anything useful.
posted by winterhill at 4:57 AM on September 26, 2018


It's frustrating to read views from our European friends along the lines of "you all voted for it, it's your problem".

It is your problem. The EU cannot vote in your general elections or referendums, nor can they convince May or Corbyn to change their minds.

Because it is also the EU27's problem, the EU has offered the UK all of its best options for a future relationship, on a silver platter. It has even subtly suggested that remain was possible if the UK changes its mind.
posted by romanb at 7:56 AM on September 26, 2018 [7 favorites]




We all expected Brussels to be saying nice things about the Chequers proposals until after the Tory party conference at least...

The Chequers plan caused the Tories' own online astroturf squad—the “Tory 1st Battalion”—to turn on May with the same venom it used to spray at Corbyn (Buzzfeed). Conservative Campaign Headquarters (CCHQ) has now left the group, presumably leaving its rank-and-file membership a rogue operation.
posted by Doktor Zed at 7:00 AM on September 27, 2018 [1 favorite]


the Viscount Rothermere

Well this guy never had a chance, with a title like that. I amused myself for a minute or two imagining his youthful rebellion against and eventual tragic but gleeful acceptance of his destiny as a goddamn comic book villain.

I do find the point about media made above to be very compelling. I don’t know how we get through this choke point, on either side of the Atlantic, but I think media regulation will need to be part of that effort.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:12 AM on September 27, 2018 [3 favorites]


UK, stay in the EU, let's get this started!
posted by romanb at 11:02 AM on September 27, 2018


You say that as though the thought hadn't crossed our minds.

They've stitched it up tight. It's a coup.
posted by Grangousier at 11:39 AM on September 27, 2018 [6 favorites]


And it looks like Question Time tonight features both Mogg and Rod Liddle. No doubt Twitter will be full of angry people hate watching it, but I don't see why anyone would do that to themselves.
posted by Grangousier at 11:43 AM on September 27, 2018 [2 favorites]


I haven't watched Question Time for many years. My life has been the sweeter for it.
posted by Devonian at 12:49 PM on September 27, 2018 [4 favorites]


They should just rename it to “UKIP Zone”.
posted by Artw at 12:50 PM on September 27, 2018


I guess 2 Brexiteers on the panel is the new BBC balance (52% and all that) but those two? Sheesh.
posted by pharm at 12:55 PM on September 27, 2018


Over here I think the sentiment is 'what took so long??'. I can't speak for everyone but to generalize: we've long given up. Any semblance of a renewed effort to stay is a breath of fresh air. The Brexit discussion in the last few years has been tainted by what our governments are negotiating (EU and the UK) which has been a frustrating afair, having to explain again and again what the EU will never, ever accept, and what they will. Everyone I've spoken to here, from several countries, is solidly unanimous on the EUs position. It's not unanimous but there's a consensus.

Meanwhile even amongst remainer Brits I've spoken to, I've heard so many versions of what will happen after Brexit that I can't keep track at this stage. English friends that were most strongly against Brexit have since taken up citizenship in my country. Others seem to think nothing will change (!). To me it's not so no binary: many leavers and Brexiters share many opinions (it's one country after all) that to me show a very different understanding of what the EU is about. I ask myself: Is it the currency? The channel? Pride in a lost empire? Not being part of Schengen?

I remember posting here years ago, shortly after Poland (the country of my birth) joined Schengen and border posts were taken off the roads between Poland and Germany (where I now live, after decades in the US). What a dramatic change. My family fled Poland when I was young to seek political asyum in the 80s, across that same border. It was a terrifying experience getting through, the fear of prison time on everyone's mind. Then living in a refugee camp for years until a other country would take us in, because Germany would not. Now it's a walk in the park. I vividly emember when my parents came back to Poland a couple of years ago and we drove from there to my home in Germany on the new expressway. No passport controls, just a sign 'Welcome to Germany'. They were speechless. My grandfather blew up Nazi trains and bridges in WW2. A generation grew up with animosity to Germany. Now we are part of the same Union. The economy is humming along. Unemployment is at historical lows. Germans are setting up companies in Poland, Poles are doing the same in Germany and western Europe. A German girlfriend went to study in Łódź and came back with a husband. When I was younger, that relationship would have been Shakespearean.

Why would anyone want to give this up? This is what my German friends are asking.
posted by romanb at 1:06 PM on September 27, 2018 [16 favorites]


Yeah, romanb, people tend to forget that there was a dream, and that to a huge extent, it came true for millions of people. Even before the wall came down, traveling on interrail through all of Europe in the late 70's/early 80's was an amazing thing of Euro-joy.
posted by mumimor at 2:29 PM on September 27, 2018 [3 favorites]


How To Brexit? - Can you get to the current UK proposal: A Brexit with only a North Sea border?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:36 AM on September 28, 2018


Wasn't considering doing another post on Brexit, or UK politics, for quite a time. Even with the governing Conservative Party conference starting tomorrow, and I was thinking this morning that surely it can't be as much of a shambles as the one last year.

Then this happened. So, a new post for all your 'I can't believe these people actually govern and are negotiating Brexit' needs!
posted by Wordshore at 7:42 AM on September 29, 2018 [3 favorites]


Still, at least we’ll save £350 million each week after we — [holds hand to earpiece] I’m now hearing that we are already losing £500 million each week in foregone growth since the Brexit vote.

Put that on the side of a fucking bus and then drive it straight into the sea, you Tory cunts.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 2:16 PM on September 29, 2018 [7 favorites]








Switzerland is effectively in the single market. You know that it is Boris... you KNOW that it is..."
@Peston literally laughs in @BorisJohnson's face at all the holes in his dappy Brexit plan.
posted by adamvasco at 4:10 PM on October 1, 2018 [2 favorites]


Claims (apparently verified independently) about the UK government's plans: The unsurprising claims: they're deliberately aiming for no-deal for the disaster-capitalist windfall it offers. More surprising: they're attempting to feint the EU into preparing insufficiently to pursue a “Europe in chaos” narrative and disrupt election processes in Europe.
posted by acb at 4:29 AM on October 2, 2018 [4 favorites]


Well, that's just awful, but unsurprising.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 6:16 AM on October 2, 2018


More surprising: they're attempting to feint the EU into preparing insufficiently to pursue a “Europe in chaos” narrative and disrupt election processes in Europe.

Uh. Does this not sound very...how should I put this...Putinesque, to anyone else?
posted by schadenfrau at 6:55 AM on October 2, 2018 [1 favorite]


Also though who is this guy? He doesn’t cite any of his sources at all, so to this American he just looks like a rando on twitter.

Christ I hope he’s just a rando on twitter.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:57 AM on October 2, 2018 [2 favorites]


Meanwhile, the Tory Conference is going swimmingly. Boris Johnson is instigating a "chuck Chequers" insurrection, and DUP leader Arlene Foster has torpedoed May's border proposal of regulatory checks in the Irish Sea—"It's our one red line"—and incidentally mentioned the Good Friday Agreement could be up for renegotiation (Independent).
posted by Doktor Zed at 7:31 AM on October 2, 2018


Claims (apparently verified independently) about the UK government's plans

Threadreader version. The author, James Patrick, is a former London Met Police officer/whistleblower and now independent investigative journalist. Treat his unsourced analysis with appropriate scepticism, but he's not kidding about the Civil Contingencies Secretariat—Operation Yellowhammer: 'No-deal' Brexit plans leaked (MSN)
posted by Doktor Zed at 7:46 AM on October 2, 2018 [2 favorites]


Jon Snow is saying on twitter that, for the first time in 29 years, the PM is refusing to interviewed by Channel 4 news at their party conference.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 8:30 AM on October 2, 2018 [1 favorite]


Operation Yellowhammer: 'No-deal' Brexit plans leaked (MSN)

Children's author Enid Blyton characterised [the yellowhammer's] birdsong as "a little bit of bread and no cheese."


You could always supplement that diet with the flesh of witty Etonians.
posted by Iridic at 8:59 AM on October 2, 2018 [1 favorite]


Have you seen them? There's no eating on Jacob Rees-Mogg and Alexander Johnson is all fat. No eating on those fuckers.
posted by Grangousier at 9:06 AM on October 2, 2018 [1 favorite]




I’ve been thinking about the James Patrick stuff for the last few hours and I’ve come to realise that even if he’s pulling this all straight out of his arse - mysterious sources, OSINT that he won’t provide links to, possibly getting the wrong French govt agency, telling George Monbiot to fuck off when questioned - even then, even if really he’s just guessing, I still think I might believe him.

Or at least partly believe him, because real life is messy and politicians have different agendas and their plans (and the motivations for them) change and evolve. “Conspiracies” emerge organically and rarely follow the will of just one conspirator or just one faction. (It’s all made up, but Libra by Don DeLillo is convincing on this.)

But yeah, his thread really speaks to my confusion over the British negotiating strategy (or lack of it). Moreover, I think he’s fundamentally right about the endgame to all this: degregulation, chaos, disater capitalism, and ideally the external enemy of the EU to pin it on and some turmoil in the EU so the new hard-right UK can catch its breath. I could certainly see this being something Boris and Rees Mogg are actually planning. For the rest, it’s the old “malice or incompetence” game. But it doesn’t really matter - from the perspective of results, we all end up in all the same places.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 2:21 PM on October 2, 2018 [3 favorites]


I mean, clearly it’s both - the incompetent being led around by the malicious. Though I suspect where the borders between the the two lie are maybe not where the participants think they are.
posted by Artw at 2:27 PM on October 2, 2018 [4 favorites]


It's malice. It's always malice.
posted by dng at 3:29 PM on October 2, 2018


While May dances (jesus wept) onto the stage for her conference speech, six MPs have said they have sent letters to the chairman of the 1922 Committee ... he needs 48 for a leadership election to be triggered but no one knows how many may have been sent privately so far.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 7:10 AM on October 3, 2018 [1 favorite]






Away from all the ho ha ha of the Tory conference itself this looks like a development that makes No Deal looking very likely.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:41 AM on October 3, 2018


Boris signed up to write his Torygraph column again after resigning as Foreign Secretary. He’s back on the same salary that he once memorably described as “chickenfeed”: £275,000.
The Conservative MP and potential leadership candidate had to give up his newspaper job when he became foreign secretary in 2016, forfeiting the substantial second income.

However, the parliamentary register of members’ interests shows he was immediately rehired on the same rate after resigning this summer, with no attempt made by the Daily Telegraph – which has experienced years of job cuts and falling profits – to push down his salary.

The former foreign secretary said he spends 10 hours a month writing his 1,100 word column, equivalent to a pay rate of £2,291/hour – or around £4.80 a word.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 4:51 PM on October 3, 2018






Has anyone made a Keep Calm And Carry On poster that says

FUCK
BREXIT
AND
FUCK
YOU
posted by dng at 9:12 AM on October 5, 2018 [1 favorite]


Not yet, but that's a very good idea and I might.
posted by Grangousier at 2:14 PM on October 5, 2018 [2 favorites]


Comme ça?

I changed the message very slightly.
posted by Grangousier at 2:34 PM on October 5, 2018 [8 favorites]


Looks like May will survive for now... as Boris doesn't have the numbers and the dancing speech was just enough to keep enough of her party on side (and no one else really wants to be holding the Brexit grenade when it goes off) Also, just when you think politics can't get any more stupid... Operation Arse.

Meanwhile this thread is... interesting.

Amidst all the ‘a deal is close’ fanfare, an enormous, grey skinned, white tusked creature with a long trunk has sauntered into the room and is having a quiet cup of tea at a card table in the corner.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:25 AM on October 6, 2018


Estimated 100 000 marching for Scottish Independence in Edinburgh today. The SNP conderence starts tomorrow... don't expect any Indy Ref 2 announcements - Sturgeon has said she's waiting to see what kind of Brexit deal it's going to be - but the pressure is mounting. Interesting times.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 7:03 AM on October 6, 2018 [1 favorite]


Like the monks on Iona,” as one of their former parliamentary researchers told me, “illuminating their manuscripts and waiting for the Dark Ages to come to an end.”
Britain’s vote to leave the EU was the grand finale of a 25-year campaign by a lonely sect of true believers.
posted by adamvasco at 12:39 PM on October 6, 2018


Everything you need to know about the final weeks of Brexit in five minutes by Ian Dunt.
tl;dr: All options now look highly improbable although, logically, one of them must occur.
posted by vacapinta at 9:19 AM on October 10, 2018 [3 favorites]






If you missed it, there's a new Brexit thread.
posted by Chrysostom at 12:52 PM on October 12, 2018 [1 favorite]


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