“Who’s gonna milk the cows?”
October 1, 2018 7:37 AM Subscribe
“Nelson was freaked out. There was no phone call, of course. The mysterious chubby man had asked Hoyer to have us ejected. According to Nelson, she had told him that an article about dairies and immigration would “destroy our lives out here.” It was an incredibly sensitive subject. “It’s kind of a third rail among dairy farmers,” Nelson said. “Whenever I go to a dairy farm, I never ask about the immigrant-labor thing unless they bring it up themselves.” Devin Nunes’ Family Farm Is Hiding A Secret
(Esquire)
But the article is very worth a read.
Amazing that a guy can be Putin’s inside guy on the House Intelligence Committee, be part of an active effort to bring down democracy and still have other major dodgy shit on the side.
posted by Artw at 8:12 AM on October 1, 2018 [17 favorites]
Amazing that a guy can be Putin’s inside guy on the House Intelligence Committee, be part of an active effort to bring down democracy and still have other major dodgy shit on the side.
posted by Artw at 8:12 AM on October 1, 2018 [17 favorites]
Short version: Nunes' family farm, which he built his political career on, is no longer in California, but in Iowa - a fact that the family has concealed to protect Nunes. Furthermore, given the scope and location of said farm, it is almost assuredly using undocumented laborers, much like most agricultural businesses throughout the US.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:13 AM on October 1, 2018 [17 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:13 AM on October 1, 2018 [17 favorites]
MetaFilter: almost died in a bizarre manure-pit accident
posted by chavenet at 8:18 AM on October 1, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 8:18 AM on October 1, 2018 [7 favorites]
If the government actually wished to crack down on undocumented workers, they would fine and prosecute the employers, not the immigrant workers. But they don't - because they just want undocumented people to be afraid, and willing to put up with even worse conditions.
posted by jb at 8:30 AM on October 1, 2018 [103 favorites]
posted by jb at 8:30 AM on October 1, 2018 [103 favorites]
When you're afraid to go to the cops, when no one will stand up for you, when you have no rights, you are not a person. You're a slave. To the system, if not a single plantation owner.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:40 AM on October 1, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:40 AM on October 1, 2018 [12 favorites]
because they just want undocumented people to be afraid, and willing to put up with even worse conditions.
This is, of course, the reason people use undocumented labor. Not because they're cheaper but because they have no recourse under the law in the face of mistreatment.
posted by mhoye at 8:42 AM on October 1, 2018 [29 favorites]
This is, of course, the reason people use undocumented labor. Not because they're cheaper but because they have no recourse under the law in the face of mistreatment.
posted by mhoye at 8:42 AM on October 1, 2018 [29 favorites]
But if you’re a fake farmer it’s all about the soil or something. On your farm, which doesn’t exist, or dies in a different state, which you’d never have time to visit if it was in your state because you’re always running your ass off propping up various criminal conspiracies.
The imaginary soil and the imaginary non-immigrant workers that till it and the imaginary manual labor he gets his hands dirty with cos he’s so connected to that soil.
posted by Artw at 8:51 AM on October 1, 2018 [8 favorites]
The imaginary soil and the imaginary non-immigrant workers that till it and the imaginary manual labor he gets his hands dirty with cos he’s so connected to that soil.
posted by Artw at 8:51 AM on October 1, 2018 [8 favorites]
From the article:
"When I asked one dairy farmer, who admitted many of the farm’s workers are undocumented but who also inexplicably claimed to be 'very supportive of Trump' and 'kind of in favor of his immigration laws,' what a solution would be, this farmer suggested a guest-worker program but compared the workers to farm animals. 'It’s kind of like when you bought cattle out of South Dakota, or anyplace, you always had to have the brand inspected and you had to have the brand sheet when you hauled them across the state line,' the farmer said. 'Well, what’s the difference? Why don’t they have to report to the city hall or county office and say we’re here working and everybody knows where they’re at?'"
Yikes!
posted by papayaninja at 8:58 AM on October 1, 2018 [23 favorites]
"When I asked one dairy farmer, who admitted many of the farm’s workers are undocumented but who also inexplicably claimed to be 'very supportive of Trump' and 'kind of in favor of his immigration laws,' what a solution would be, this farmer suggested a guest-worker program but compared the workers to farm animals. 'It’s kind of like when you bought cattle out of South Dakota, or anyplace, you always had to have the brand inspected and you had to have the brand sheet when you hauled them across the state line,' the farmer said. 'Well, what’s the difference? Why don’t they have to report to the city hall or county office and say we’re here working and everybody knows where they’re at?'"
Yikes!
posted by papayaninja at 8:58 AM on October 1, 2018 [23 favorites]
If the government actually wished to crack down on undocumented workers, they would fine and prosecute the employers, not the immigrant workers. But they don't - because they just want undocumented people to be afraid, and willing to put up with even worse conditions.
In the article they do mention that a dairy farmer, Mike Millenkamp, was prosecuted and basically they threw the book at him as a warning to other farmers back in 2011. Which is what has the others scared still.
What surprised me was the mention that they're starting undocumented workers at $14 or $15/hr for this work. That's more than I expected with the leverage these employers have.
The article kind of halfway touches on something I've noticed around here, that you find some surprisingly accepting views of immigrants out in the rural areas of this district where people have to work with immigrants to survive. I've heard the most horrible shit about immigrants from entitled urban Republicans who are totally disconnected from the realities on the ground. I just wish I knew what to do about getting those “Well, we don’t agree with him on that!” voters to take that last step away from the Republicans. I think the situation in this article is a big part of why Scholten is within spitting distance of King. I wish he was interviewed for this piece.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:02 AM on October 1, 2018 [11 favorites]
In the article they do mention that a dairy farmer, Mike Millenkamp, was prosecuted and basically they threw the book at him as a warning to other farmers back in 2011. Which is what has the others scared still.
What surprised me was the mention that they're starting undocumented workers at $14 or $15/hr for this work. That's more than I expected with the leverage these employers have.
The article kind of halfway touches on something I've noticed around here, that you find some surprisingly accepting views of immigrants out in the rural areas of this district where people have to work with immigrants to survive. I've heard the most horrible shit about immigrants from entitled urban Republicans who are totally disconnected from the realities on the ground. I just wish I knew what to do about getting those “Well, we don’t agree with him on that!” voters to take that last step away from the Republicans. I think the situation in this article is a big part of why Scholten is within spitting distance of King. I wish he was interviewed for this piece.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:02 AM on October 1, 2018 [11 favorites]
If the government actually wished to crack down on undocumented workers, they would fine and prosecute the employers, not the immigrant workers.
As Jason Steakums mentions right above, a major thread of TFA is that the farmers are terrified of precisely this scenario, based on the "send a message" prosecution of a farmer named Mike Millenkamp a few years ago.
It's such a serious concern that the author actually, as noted in TFA, consulted a priest about the ethics of publishing this story knowing it could lead to some kind of major ICE invasion of Sibley and the utter destruction of the town and its way of life.
Really interesting article, actually. You can find it at this link.
posted by Naberius at 9:27 AM on October 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
As Jason Steakums mentions right above, a major thread of TFA is that the farmers are terrified of precisely this scenario, based on the "send a message" prosecution of a farmer named Mike Millenkamp a few years ago.
It's such a serious concern that the author actually, as noted in TFA, consulted a priest about the ethics of publishing this story knowing it could lead to some kind of major ICE invasion of Sibley and the utter destruction of the town and its way of life.
Really interesting article, actually. You can find it at this link.
posted by Naberius at 9:27 AM on October 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
What surprised me was the mention that they're starting undocumented workers at $14 or $15/hr for this work. That's more than I expected with the leverage these employers have.
They are working 72 hours a week flat rate with no overtime adjustment, no health insurance, no unemployment insurance, no disability insurance, no vacation pay, no sick pay. Social security taxes are taken out of their pay but they will never collect social security.
posted by JackFlash at 9:36 AM on October 1, 2018 [31 favorites]
They are working 72 hours a week flat rate with no overtime adjustment, no health insurance, no unemployment insurance, no disability insurance, no vacation pay, no sick pay. Social security taxes are taken out of their pay but they will never collect social security.
posted by JackFlash at 9:36 AM on October 1, 2018 [31 favorites]
Oh I'm not saying it's a good deal for them. I'm just surprised it's not even worse.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:45 AM on October 1, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 9:45 AM on October 1, 2018 [7 favorites]
Why didn't he make a PDF of the Dairy Star article? Doh!
posted by k8t at 9:57 AM on October 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by k8t at 9:57 AM on October 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
they're starting undocumented workers at $14 or $15/hr for this work. That's more than I expected with the leverage these employers have.
That's the low end of market demand--there are other places that will pay them $12/hour, possible for less physically strenuous work. There are plenty of places that will pay them $10/hour, cash under the table, although it's hard to find full-time reliable work at that rate. They need to offer a wage that's just high enough that they're not constantly looking for a slightly better deal somewhere else, and especially so they're not looking for high-wages erratic seasonal jobs.
(And as noted, the base pay rate isn't as much a drain on employers as benefits. After all, the raw wages are a simple business-cost writeoff on their taxes.)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:02 AM on October 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
That's the low end of market demand--there are other places that will pay them $12/hour, possible for less physically strenuous work. There are plenty of places that will pay them $10/hour, cash under the table, although it's hard to find full-time reliable work at that rate. They need to offer a wage that's just high enough that they're not constantly looking for a slightly better deal somewhere else, and especially so they're not looking for high-wages erratic seasonal jobs.
(And as noted, the base pay rate isn't as much a drain on employers as benefits. After all, the raw wages are a simple business-cost writeoff on their taxes.)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:02 AM on October 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
As one anonymous source notes, that's a huge factor in why the workers are almost universally undocumented. If you're legal to reside and work in the US, you can get a much better deal.
"Who is going to go work in the dairy? Who? Tell me who? If people have papers, they are going to go to a good company where you can get benefits, you can get Social Security, you can get all the stuff. Who is going to go [work in the dairy] to make fourteen dollars an hour doing that thing without vacation time, without 401(k), without everything?"
posted by Naberius at 10:21 AM on October 1, 2018 [7 favorites]
"Who is going to go work in the dairy? Who? Tell me who? If people have papers, they are going to go to a good company where you can get benefits, you can get Social Security, you can get all the stuff. Who is going to go [work in the dairy] to make fourteen dollars an hour doing that thing without vacation time, without 401(k), without everything?"
posted by Naberius at 10:21 AM on October 1, 2018 [7 favorites]
Amazing that a guy can be Putin’s inside guy on the House Intelligence Committee, be part of an active effort to bring down democracy and still have other major dodgy shit on the side.
Why do you think Putin picked him? Or why Trump likes him? Nunes knows how vulnerable he and his family are if he ends up on the wrong side of the people who control ICE. It wouldn't take them more than a phone call to destroy him, and they wouldn't lose a nanosecond of sleep over it. Hell, they'd love to show how tough they are on Those People, even if means they have to harm Republicans.
Nunes knows it. He's been in the room, and he knows what it's like for people outside that room.
posted by Etrigan at 10:59 AM on October 1, 2018 [7 favorites]
Why do you think Putin picked him? Or why Trump likes him? Nunes knows how vulnerable he and his family are if he ends up on the wrong side of the people who control ICE. It wouldn't take them more than a phone call to destroy him, and they wouldn't lose a nanosecond of sleep over it. Hell, they'd love to show how tough they are on Those People, even if means they have to harm Republicans.
Nunes knows it. He's been in the room, and he knows what it's like for people outside that room.
posted by Etrigan at 10:59 AM on October 1, 2018 [7 favorites]
utter destruction of the town and its way of life
I'm fairly certain that they have dairy farms in places without huge pools of cheap labor. Here's an article about an automated dairy barn in Sweden (YouTube video).
If a farm's business isn't profitable using legal market-wage labor or automation, then it doesn't deserve to exist as a business.
If that means we need to subsidize agriculture businesses to keep the cost of dairy and produce down, I have no doubt at all that the Federal government will do that, because we have done so historically (and already do today for various reasons). Lots of other countries do, and it would be a pretty reasonable stopgap. Direct subsidies, low-interest loans for CAPEX, price floor stabilization, creating a "Strategic Cheese Reserve", whatever; there are a lot of mechanisms.
But I won't shed any crocodile tears for ruining the "way of life" of farming communities perpetuated on the exploitation of black-market labor, any more than I'd lament the destruction of the way of life of plantation owners after the Civil War. They're exploiters, pure and simple. They deserve no sympathy.
posted by Kadin2048 at 11:17 AM on October 1, 2018 [28 favorites]
I'm fairly certain that they have dairy farms in places without huge pools of cheap labor. Here's an article about an automated dairy barn in Sweden (YouTube video).
If a farm's business isn't profitable using legal market-wage labor or automation, then it doesn't deserve to exist as a business.
If that means we need to subsidize agriculture businesses to keep the cost of dairy and produce down, I have no doubt at all that the Federal government will do that, because we have done so historically (and already do today for various reasons). Lots of other countries do, and it would be a pretty reasonable stopgap. Direct subsidies, low-interest loans for CAPEX, price floor stabilization, creating a "Strategic Cheese Reserve", whatever; there are a lot of mechanisms.
But I won't shed any crocodile tears for ruining the "way of life" of farming communities perpetuated on the exploitation of black-market labor, any more than I'd lament the destruction of the way of life of plantation owners after the Civil War. They're exploiters, pure and simple. They deserve no sympathy.
posted by Kadin2048 at 11:17 AM on October 1, 2018 [28 favorites]
Some initial thoughts from Dr. Sarah Taber:
spoiler: this is vintage farmer bullshit "Hey let's vote for the guy who says he'll get rid of Mexicans!" "Ok now I'm gonna get paranoid bc the guvmint's gonna come take all my Mexicans away." brb eyerolling off a cliffposted by zachlipton at 11:29 AM on October 1, 2018 [30 favorites]
Also, we really need to have a talk about how the farmers pulling this shit are family farmers. Dear food movement: pls remove your head from family farming's ass. Actual lives are counting on this. Love, everyone else in the entire agricultural sector.
...
The whole point of the family farm mythos is family farmers are special, sacred, & can do no wrong. You can't believe that, and take worker welfare seriously, at the same time. That & family farmers have convinced both themselves & everyone else that *they're* the bottom of the pile. Despite owning land, a business, considerable capital, voting themselves a class of unfree labor, & behaving in every respect like an entrenched management class.
As Jason Steakums mentions right above, a major thread of TFA is that the farmers are terrified of precisely this scenario, based on the "send a message" prosecution of a farmer named Mike Millenkamp a few years ago.
I did read TFA. One warning prosecution is nothing compared to the widespread ICE raids on workers. Employers are not being systematically targeted.
posted by jb at 11:43 AM on October 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
I did read TFA. One warning prosecution is nothing compared to the widespread ICE raids on workers. Employers are not being systematically targeted.
posted by jb at 11:43 AM on October 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
If that means we need to subsidize agriculture businesses to keep the cost of dairy and produce down, I have no doubt at all that the Federal government will do that
I'd love to see the numbers on giving the ICE budget a massive haircut and using that money to subsidize a living wage and benefits for farm workers and other jobs that rely on undocumented labor. But I'd put money on the problem being a lot more than just documented workers being too expensive - people are also leaving these places in droves. You still won't fill the jobs, and it's because these places have been made into environments that people, especially youth, want to escape.
posted by jason_steakums at 11:47 AM on October 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'd love to see the numbers on giving the ICE budget a massive haircut and using that money to subsidize a living wage and benefits for farm workers and other jobs that rely on undocumented labor. But I'd put money on the problem being a lot more than just documented workers being too expensive - people are also leaving these places in droves. You still won't fill the jobs, and it's because these places have been made into environments that people, especially youth, want to escape.
posted by jason_steakums at 11:47 AM on October 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
Wow- it's fascinating how quickly the town turned on this reporter. From the article:
"Later, I would ask directions to the center of town, only to be told that it 'Runs right down the middle of the street.' On inquiring about a good hotel to stay in, I was told, 'The Palmer House in Chicago.'"
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 11:47 AM on October 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
"Later, I would ask directions to the center of town, only to be told that it 'Runs right down the middle of the street.' On inquiring about a good hotel to stay in, I was told, 'The Palmer House in Chicago.'"
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 11:47 AM on October 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
Kadin2048: I actually don't disagree with you at all. I was simply pointing out the situation as it stands on the ground. The local farmers have the very clear example of the Millenkamp case hanging over them - in which a farmer much like them had his life upended in a way that could easily be repeated with them, for doing pretty much exactly what they're presently doing. That goes a long way to explain their reactions without requiring that I think it excuses them. I don't.
About as far as I'm willing to go in terms of sympathy is this: it's not like they're in a position to unilaterally change things for the better. They could in theory only hire documented workers, but as has been pointed out elsewhere, that's basically economic suicide. Until the US decides to create a system like the one you describe to keep the industry afloat (and I think that's wild fantasy - remember who's running the United States right now), there's not a lot they can do besides hope nobody comes after them.
posted by Naberius at 11:49 AM on October 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
About as far as I'm willing to go in terms of sympathy is this: it's not like they're in a position to unilaterally change things for the better. They could in theory only hire documented workers, but as has been pointed out elsewhere, that's basically economic suicide. Until the US decides to create a system like the one you describe to keep the industry afloat (and I think that's wild fantasy - remember who's running the United States right now), there's not a lot they can do besides hope nobody comes after them.
posted by Naberius at 11:49 AM on October 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Until the US decides to create a system like the one you describe to keep the industry afloat (and I think that's wild fantasy - remember who's running the United States right now), there's not a lot they can do besides hope nobody comes after them.
They can vote for Democrats and be advocates for Democratic policies in their communities, and I feel like banging my head against the wall when I think about why they don't.
posted by jason_steakums at 11:52 AM on October 1, 2018 [15 favorites]
They can vote for Democrats and be advocates for Democratic policies in their communities, and I feel like banging my head against the wall when I think about why they don't.
posted by jason_steakums at 11:52 AM on October 1, 2018 [15 favorites]
Y'all, this is a complicated issue that has its own, unique US-specific wrinkles. Dairying countries around the world are struggling with the problem of attracting and retaining farm labor. This is the key driver of the popularity of robotic milking systems. The cows can go to the robot whenever they want to, which both reduces the labor needed on the farm and frees up existing labor to do other tasks since they don't have to milk 2 or 3 times a day. The number of robot installations in the US is growing exponentially, and you're looking at something like a 6-month wait time to get one. However, robots are expensive (and the trade war is only going to increase the cost) and usually require at least some reconfiguration of existing facilities. This means that you have to have access to capital in order to install them, and many smaller farmers don't have that access. Robots may be the only ethical way to lower your labor costs (having larger farm families is, at the very least, a longer-term solution to the problem), since farm laborers deserve to be fairly paid regardless of their immigration status. However, for many years there was a pool of immigrant labor willing to work for the wages paid, and the industry structured itself to take advantage of that. There's a reason that many dairy industry publications are available both in English and in Spanish.
Dairy farmers are also in a poor negotiating position when it's time to sell their milk (which I may have commented on in a thread a few weeks ago). The processing plants have all of the leverage since there's a milk surplus and milk is perishable. You can't just put it up in a silo for 6 months and hope the prices improve. You might think the current race to the bottom would encourage farmers to consider their own, private-sector-led version of Canada's supply management system, but we're not there yet.
Many of the dairy price support programs that used to exist have been eliminated or replaced with programs like margin protection, which is an insurance program that farmers can participate in. I'm not sure if there's a big difference in their effectiveness over older programs, but conservative politicians love the rhetoric about replacing "giveaways" with market-directed incentives. However, there is currently a staggering surplus of cheese in the US right now. The thing is, none of these support programs are dealing with the root cause of the problem, which is that the milk surplus had depressed the cost of milk to the point that farmers are paid less for their milk than it costs to produce.
Some of this is tangential to the fine article, but I wanted to try and provide a little more context around some of the forces driving unethical labor practices.
posted by wintermind at 11:54 AM on October 1, 2018 [10 favorites]
Dairy farmers are also in a poor negotiating position when it's time to sell their milk (which I may have commented on in a thread a few weeks ago). The processing plants have all of the leverage since there's a milk surplus and milk is perishable. You can't just put it up in a silo for 6 months and hope the prices improve. You might think the current race to the bottom would encourage farmers to consider their own, private-sector-led version of Canada's supply management system, but we're not there yet.
Many of the dairy price support programs that used to exist have been eliminated or replaced with programs like margin protection, which is an insurance program that farmers can participate in. I'm not sure if there's a big difference in their effectiveness over older programs, but conservative politicians love the rhetoric about replacing "giveaways" with market-directed incentives. However, there is currently a staggering surplus of cheese in the US right now. The thing is, none of these support programs are dealing with the root cause of the problem, which is that the milk surplus had depressed the cost of milk to the point that farmers are paid less for their milk than it costs to produce.
Some of this is tangential to the fine article, but I wanted to try and provide a little more context around some of the forces driving unethical labor practices.
posted by wintermind at 11:54 AM on October 1, 2018 [10 favorites]
They can vote for Democrats and be advocates for Democratic policies in their communities
Well, yeah, there's that. And if they were doing that, they'd likely get a bit more sympathy from me. But that's very removed from the actual levers of power. I mean I vote for Democrats all the time, and look where that's gotten us.
posted by Naberius at 12:00 PM on October 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Well, yeah, there's that. And if they were doing that, they'd likely get a bit more sympathy from me. But that's very removed from the actual levers of power. I mean I vote for Democrats all the time, and look where that's gotten us.
posted by Naberius at 12:00 PM on October 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Is this in King's district? If so, it raises his hypocrisy to an even more ludicrous level.
posted by Ber at 12:05 PM on October 1, 2018
posted by Ber at 12:05 PM on October 1, 2018
I wanted to try and provide a little more context around some of the forces driving unethical labor practices.
The forces driving unethical labor practices are unethical farmers who insist on producing more milk than the market can consume. Low prices are caused by propping up inefficient dairy operations that could not otherwise survive without government subsidies and cheap illegal labor.
Without subsidies and cheap illegal labor, many dairy farms will go out of business, eliminating the excess supply and allowing prices to rise. The inefficient farms will be gone and the better managed efficient farms will remain.
That might be sad for some farmers, but you get no sympathy from me for running bad businesses. You need to find a better business.
posted by JackFlash at 12:09 PM on October 1, 2018 [6 favorites]
The forces driving unethical labor practices are unethical farmers who insist on producing more milk than the market can consume. Low prices are caused by propping up inefficient dairy operations that could not otherwise survive without government subsidies and cheap illegal labor.
Without subsidies and cheap illegal labor, many dairy farms will go out of business, eliminating the excess supply and allowing prices to rise. The inefficient farms will be gone and the better managed efficient farms will remain.
That might be sad for some farmers, but you get no sympathy from me for running bad businesses. You need to find a better business.
posted by JackFlash at 12:09 PM on October 1, 2018 [6 favorites]
If they just prosecute the one guy you had to wonder what about him sticks out, other than not being related to a prominent Republican.
posted by Artw at 12:10 PM on October 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 12:10 PM on October 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Is this in King's district?Sure is. This is the heart of Steve King country. These are totally archetypal Steve King voters.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 12:16 PM on October 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
I saw a link to this article yesterday but got tired trying to make my way through the article to figure out the salient points. Thank you Mr.Know-it-some for the Newser link. This is self-indulgent investigative journalism, where they author and periodical are so full of themselves they don't think "How can this story be told most clearly and effectively to have an actual impact?"
posted by PhineasGage at 12:21 PM on October 1, 2018
posted by PhineasGage at 12:21 PM on October 1, 2018
However, there is currently a staggering surplus of cheese in the US right now.
Finally, a national problem where I can really make an impact.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:28 PM on October 1, 2018 [23 favorites]
Finally, a national problem where I can really make an impact.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:28 PM on October 1, 2018 [23 favorites]
JackFlash, I feel as though you're mischaracterizing my remarks. I'm not asking for sympathy for anyone, and I feel that I was quite clear about my feelings about the ethics of paying fair wages for labor. I was trying to shed a little light on why some farmers are reacting they way they are. People keep talking about subsidies, but the 2014 Farm Bill (IIRC) eliminated most of what people mean by that term. Margin protection plan insurance is subsidized, but the idea that farmers are being paid by the government to produce food nobody wants is incorrect. You're probably going to get what you want, which is higher food prices, but that's going to hurt a lot of people who aren't farmers taking unethical advantage of a screwed-up labor market.
posted by wintermind at 12:36 PM on October 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by wintermind at 12:36 PM on October 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
"When he was thirty, he almost died in a bizarre manure-pit accident, and he told me that since then he’s lived every day like it’s a blessing."
Jerry Nelson, one of Spinal Tap's lesser-known drummers (I'm assuming).
posted by ensign_ricky at 12:46 PM on October 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
Jerry Nelson, one of Spinal Tap's lesser-known drummers (I'm assuming).
posted by ensign_ricky at 12:46 PM on October 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
People keep talking about subsidies, but the 2014 Farm Bill (IIRC) eliminated most of what people mean by that term. Margin protection plan insurance is subsidized, but the idea that farmers are being paid by the government to produce food nobody wants is incorrect.
In 2014 they got rid of the old Milk Price Support Program because it didn't provide enough of a subsidy. It only guaranteed a fixed price for milk, even if operating expenses varied. The new program, the Dairy Margin Protection Program goes much farther. It doesn't guarantee a price. It guarantees a profit. If the profit a dairy earns is not high enough, they get a subsidy to increase their profit.
In addition, the 2014 bill authorized the Dairy Donation Promotion Program that has the government buy up milk products such as butter and cheese if the price drops below a fixed level.
So, yeah, taxpayers are paying farmers to produce more milk than anybody wants.
And by allowing farmers to use cheap illegal labor, they are providing another price subsidy to farmers to produce more milk than anyone wants, a price of labor subsidy.
posted by JackFlash at 1:12 PM on October 1, 2018 [11 favorites]
In 2014 they got rid of the old Milk Price Support Program because it didn't provide enough of a subsidy. It only guaranteed a fixed price for milk, even if operating expenses varied. The new program, the Dairy Margin Protection Program goes much farther. It doesn't guarantee a price. It guarantees a profit. If the profit a dairy earns is not high enough, they get a subsidy to increase their profit.
In addition, the 2014 bill authorized the Dairy Donation Promotion Program that has the government buy up milk products such as butter and cheese if the price drops below a fixed level.
So, yeah, taxpayers are paying farmers to produce more milk than anybody wants.
And by allowing farmers to use cheap illegal labor, they are providing another price subsidy to farmers to produce more milk than anyone wants, a price of labor subsidy.
posted by JackFlash at 1:12 PM on October 1, 2018 [11 favorites]
This is where I grew up and it sounds like I remember it.
posted by thedaniel at 1:16 PM on October 1, 2018
posted by thedaniel at 1:16 PM on October 1, 2018
Robots may be the only ethical way to lower your labor costs
Ethical labor would be paying market value for workers, and raising the price of the product to match. Since there's a surplus, that means a lot of businesses shutting down, as there's no demand at a higher price. Fewer farms, better pay for workers, higher price for dairy that we don't need nearly as much of anyway is the long-term ethical approach.
I have a lot more sympathy for dairy farmers than for tobacco farmers, but once the public doesn't need your product at the price it takes to produce, the business should be over.
(I would need to see a lot of numbers to be convinced that robot labor is cheaper. I can believe it's cheaper after you buy the robots and as long as you don't consider the environmental cost of producing them, but I'm not just accepting that the machines are actually more efficient, rather than just pushing the costs off on some other community.)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:40 PM on October 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
Ethical labor would be paying market value for workers, and raising the price of the product to match. Since there's a surplus, that means a lot of businesses shutting down, as there's no demand at a higher price. Fewer farms, better pay for workers, higher price for dairy that we don't need nearly as much of anyway is the long-term ethical approach.
I have a lot more sympathy for dairy farmers than for tobacco farmers, but once the public doesn't need your product at the price it takes to produce, the business should be over.
(I would need to see a lot of numbers to be convinced that robot labor is cheaper. I can believe it's cheaper after you buy the robots and as long as you don't consider the environmental cost of producing them, but I'm not just accepting that the machines are actually more efficient, rather than just pushing the costs off on some other community.)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:40 PM on October 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
Kind of amazing that I’d yiu asked any of these guys they’d be staunch hardline Republican free marketers with the exception of anything to do with themselves where it’s command economy all the way.
posted by Artw at 2:42 PM on October 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 2:42 PM on October 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
{On inquiring about a good hotel to stay in, I was told, 'The Palmer House in Chicago.'"}
Someone may have just watched The Music Man too often.
posted by Mutant Lobsters from Riverhead at 4:08 PM on October 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
Someone may have just watched The Music Man too often.
posted by Mutant Lobsters from Riverhead at 4:08 PM on October 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
"Who is going to go work in the dairy? Who? Tell me who? If people have papers, they are going to go to a good company where you can get benefits, you can get Social Security, you can get all the stuff. Who is going to go [work in the dairy] to make fourteen dollars an hour doing that thing without vacation time, without 401(k), without everything?"
Um has this guy never heard of the Amish?
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:11 PM on October 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Um has this guy never heard of the Amish?
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:11 PM on October 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
However, there is currently a staggering surplus of cheese in the US right now.
Finally, a national problem where I can really make an impact.
I honestly don’t know why we don’t just give away spurplus to anyone who wants it but I don’t know why basic food production is for profit anyway.
posted by The Whelk at 5:16 PM on October 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
Finally, a national problem where I can really make an impact.
I honestly don’t know why we don’t just give away spurplus to anyone who wants it but I don’t know why basic food production is for profit anyway.
posted by The Whelk at 5:16 PM on October 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
Um has this guy never heard of the Amish?
The Amish are not going to work for a dairy farmer in Iowa either.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 5:21 PM on October 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
The Amish are not going to work for a dairy farmer in Iowa either.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 5:21 PM on October 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
I honestly don’t know why we don’t just give away surplus to anyone who wants it.
If you give it away for free then that depresses the price for the same products for sale in the supermarket. There are specific restrictions on just what the government is allowed to do with its surplus in order to protect dairy farmers. Mostly that means just piling it up in government warehouses.
posted by JackFlash at 5:24 PM on October 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
If you give it away for free then that depresses the price for the same products for sale in the supermarket. There are specific restrictions on just what the government is allowed to do with its surplus in order to protect dairy farmers. Mostly that means just piling it up in government warehouses.
posted by JackFlash at 5:24 PM on October 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
If you give it away for free then that depresses the price for the same products for sale in the supermarket. There are specific restrictions on just what the government is allowed to do with its surplus in order to protect dairy farmers. Mostly that means just piling it up in government warehouses.
I don’t know why basic food production is for profit anyway.
posted by The Whelk at 5:36 PM on October 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
I don’t know why basic food production is for profit anyway.
posted by The Whelk at 5:36 PM on October 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
consulted a priest about the ethics of publishing this story knowing it could lead to some kind of major ICE invasion of Sibley and the utter destruction of the town and its way of life
My only question about the ethics of destroying the way of life in Sibley would be how many points I was about to get
posted by schadenfrau at 5:48 PM on October 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
My only question about the ethics of destroying the way of life in Sibley would be how many points I was about to get
posted by schadenfrau at 5:48 PM on October 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
I honestly don’t know why we don’t just give away spurplus to anyone who wants it but I don’t know why basic food production is for profit anyway.
"Government cheese" used to actually be a thing. My grandmother used to get it in the 80s. All joking aside, the stuff was not bad. Not Cabot Clothbound or anything, but a sort of basic, salted mild cheddar—certainly better than Kraft Singles. Made a very nice grilled cheese sandwich.
I don’t know why basic food production is for profit anyway.
I wonder what the market would look like if you only allowed not-for-profit entities to be eligible for subsidization. I think the classical economic argument would be that the lack of profit motive would lead to lower yields, but it's not clear to me that's actually what would happen, or that non-profit farms would be substantially less productive based on the few examples I've run across. Hmm.
posted by Kadin2048 at 6:31 PM on October 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
"Government cheese" used to actually be a thing. My grandmother used to get it in the 80s. All joking aside, the stuff was not bad. Not Cabot Clothbound or anything, but a sort of basic, salted mild cheddar—certainly better than Kraft Singles. Made a very nice grilled cheese sandwich.
I don’t know why basic food production is for profit anyway.
I wonder what the market would look like if you only allowed not-for-profit entities to be eligible for subsidization. I think the classical economic argument would be that the lack of profit motive would lead to lower yields, but it's not clear to me that's actually what would happen, or that non-profit farms would be substantially less productive based on the few examples I've run across. Hmm.
posted by Kadin2048 at 6:31 PM on October 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
"The greatest threat to Iowa dairy farmers, of course, is not the press. It’s Donald Trump."
posted by bz at 7:42 AM on October 2, 2018
posted by bz at 7:42 AM on October 2, 2018
The greatest threat to Iowa dairy farmers, of course, is not the press. It’s Donald Trump.
Sounds like Cheeto has managed to open-up Canada to US dairy exports, so Iowa can relax, loves them some Trump, and bask the warm, warm dissonance.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:08 PM on October 2, 2018
Sounds like Cheeto has managed to open-up Canada to US dairy exports, so Iowa can relax, loves them some Trump, and bask the warm, warm dissonance.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:08 PM on October 2, 2018
The Amish are not going to work for a dairy farmer in Iowa either.
Plenty of Anabaptist dairy farmers in Iowa, and if my own uncle is any example I wouldn't be shocked to find out that some of them both hire undocumented immigrants and vote Republican.
posted by aspersioncast at 3:57 PM on October 3, 2018
Plenty of Anabaptist dairy farmers in Iowa, and if my own uncle is any example I wouldn't be shocked to find out that some of them both hire undocumented immigrants and vote Republican.
posted by aspersioncast at 3:57 PM on October 3, 2018
And government cheese was just fine. Maybe they can get the corn lobby to start putting out some government bourbon - they already have all those bottled-in-bond warehouses . . .
posted by aspersioncast at 3:59 PM on October 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by aspersioncast at 3:59 PM on October 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
The Amish are not going to work for a dairy farmer in Iowa either.
Plenty of Anabaptist dairy farmers in Iowa, and if my own uncle is any example I wouldn't be shocked to find out that some of them both hire undocumented immigrants and vote Republican.
So you're saying that Anabaptists can't even hire Anabaptists at those rates.
posted by Etrigan at 4:05 PM on October 3, 2018
Plenty of Anabaptist dairy farmers in Iowa, and if my own uncle is any example I wouldn't be shocked to find out that some of them both hire undocumented immigrants and vote Republican.
So you're saying that Anabaptists can't even hire Anabaptists at those rates.
posted by Etrigan at 4:05 PM on October 3, 2018
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posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 7:52 AM on October 1, 2018 [3 favorites]