Is there a such thing as ballet that doesn't hurt women?
October 21, 2018 4:17 PM Subscribe
"Just being in the ballet studio, she said, it is assumed that you can be adjusted at any point by a teacher, choreographer, or partner. Personal boundaries are crossed through persuasion or physical adjustment, without asking the dancer to check in with her own comfort and ability. It’s simply not part of the equation; if a dancer can’t keep up, there is always someone willing to take her place." (CW: sexual abuse)
Classical ballet makes demands not only on a ballerina's body but also of it. Long neck, small head, sloping shoulders, small bust, thin and graceful limbs. Being able to actually dance is considered a plus as well. In some ways it is not unlike being judged and graded at the Westminster Dog Show. But occasionally a Misty Copeland or two manages to sneak through so there is possibly still hope...
posted by jim in austin at 4:51 PM on October 21, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by jim in austin at 4:51 PM on October 21, 2018 [8 favorites]
I've known since I was little that I'm too big, not flexible enough, and don't have good enough feet, to do ballet on any capacity except as a serious amateur. I don't remember specifically being told this, I just remember knowing it, being able to look around in a room and see that where I might be expressive, might have the épaulement and the joy of expressing music and strength where other girls did not have quite the same touch, the muscles in my thighs and the wiggle of my chest and stomach meant that this was something I could love, but only for myself. I'm not really overweight, but I've been the biggest girl in the class since I was 8 or 9. And it never bothered me, and I always loved being in class and dancing and performing and teaching and developing and striving for perfection until I took a class over the summer at a professional company - an adult class, for recreational dancers - and the male teacher said that you don't want to lift with your upper thighs because they'll get big and gross and jiggly. And, in a room of adult women taking a ballet class because we all love it, to tell us that the reason for correct technique was so you wouldn't look like me ... it ruined things. I don't know why that is what did it, but I haven't taken class since then, and I miss it, but I don't want to feel mocked and I've never felt mocked by ballet before. I hope that we can reclaim our art and make it safer and healthier and more welcoming, because it satisfies me in a way that nothing else quite matches, but it is a vulnerable thing.
posted by ChuraChura at 5:22 PM on October 21, 2018 [122 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 5:22 PM on October 21, 2018 [122 favorites]
And this is why I take community African(-American) dance classes, where dance is part of ferociously loving yourself against all criticism; where you are welcome no matter what shape your body is; and where we are all in it for the long haul, with some dancers in their 70s at least and still more flexible than I am. The traditions of LaRocque Bey and Chuck Davis are dance as self-love, community-love, and love of culture, dance as liberation and dance as survival.
posted by gusandrews at 5:40 PM on October 21, 2018 [44 favorites]
posted by gusandrews at 5:40 PM on October 21, 2018 [44 favorites]
I don't think dance should be destructive to the body or spirit. In my opinion when this is the case, something was lost along the way. All should be welcome to the dance. A dance that is done to make some people feel inadequate to be anything but spectators doesn't strike me as truly uplifting the human spirit. We all belong in it.
posted by xarnop at 5:42 PM on October 21, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by xarnop at 5:42 PM on October 21, 2018 [8 favorites]
Ballet has changed so much from its incarnation. You look at early ballet dancers and their bodies are so different from the bodies of current dancers. The dance itself and the expectations of what the dancers should be able to do has also grown more extreme. It's like a lot of sports, you've got to keep pushing the extremes of the body, the degree of performance, all of that, no matter the cost.
posted by Anonymous at 5:49 PM on October 21, 2018
posted by Anonymous at 5:49 PM on October 21, 2018
Ballet is sort of necessarily destructive to the body, to make it not so would require pretty big changes to what we expect to see from performances
classical ballet is differently destructive to the bodies of men and women in a way that is absolutely not necessary for it to continue as a rigorous art form and is the culmination of several centuries' refinement of a particular sadistic sexual aesthetic, not a pure artistic vision or strict biological reality. some of the things only male dancers do could be done by female dancers trained and recruited to a different physical standard. some of the things only female dancers do could be done by male dancers willing to accept an extra measure of blood and agony and humiliation.
classical ballet has an extraordinary amount of pantomime violent heterosexuality in it. many people including dancers and audience members find that to be profoundly beautiful. many, or maybe most, because the people who find certain aspects of the tradition viscerally nauseating have already left. some dance-lovers' minds can be changed, and where their minds cannot be changed, they can be ignored. but first, someone has to decide it's worth it.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:41 PM on October 21, 2018 [35 favorites]
classical ballet is differently destructive to the bodies of men and women in a way that is absolutely not necessary for it to continue as a rigorous art form and is the culmination of several centuries' refinement of a particular sadistic sexual aesthetic, not a pure artistic vision or strict biological reality. some of the things only male dancers do could be done by female dancers trained and recruited to a different physical standard. some of the things only female dancers do could be done by male dancers willing to accept an extra measure of blood and agony and humiliation.
classical ballet has an extraordinary amount of pantomime violent heterosexuality in it. many people including dancers and audience members find that to be profoundly beautiful. many, or maybe most, because the people who find certain aspects of the tradition viscerally nauseating have already left. some dance-lovers' minds can be changed, and where their minds cannot be changed, they can be ignored. but first, someone has to decide it's worth it.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:41 PM on October 21, 2018 [35 favorites]
You look at early ballet dancers and their bodies are so different from the bodies of current dancers.
but early female ballet dancers were just as subject to abuse and just as subject to being treated as living tools of male choreographers and male artistic directors and wealthy male patrons as any now living. often more so. a higher body fat percentage and a different standard of athleticism do exactly nothing to mitigate those problems. if a little osteoporosis here and a pelvic fracture there and a little lanugo here and a broken back there were the extent of the damage -- well, that would be very alarming. problematic for sure. ballet is not a tortured and ambivalent thing like 'problematic' though. ballet is a problem.
what's wrong with ballet is not that contemporary women dancers are too strong. it is that they are required to do things with and to their strong bodies -- and allow, uncomplaining, others to do things to and with their bodies -- that are painful and damaging and sometimes violating and traumatic, on a regular basis. things that are not regularly required of male dancers -- who also work under immense psychological pressure and risk of injury and who are also subject to sexual harassment and assault. the physical damage is not the same and the demand for submission is not the same.
people like to talk about abstract universal things like "dance" and "sport" and even "bodies," and it makes problems seem immense yet vague, eternal, and universally human. but the piece was not afraid to be highly specific. it was written by a dancer and a lover of ballet, but it was was about women. and "ballet is woman" remains a lie no matter how many worshippers of george fucking balanchine refuse to die off.
one can't disregard the widespread specific harm done to women dancers by men in ballet with the reasoning that if ballet is allowed to exist at all it's going to wreck the body anyway, so what's a little extra damage to women in the process. or a lot of extra damage. women artists will endure unspeakable suffering to make art. this does not justify forcing them to endure further suffering for nothing more than men's pleasure in their own power. the former is a bad idea but the latter is abuse, and they are not the same.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:32 PM on October 21, 2018 [28 favorites]
but early female ballet dancers were just as subject to abuse and just as subject to being treated as living tools of male choreographers and male artistic directors and wealthy male patrons as any now living. often more so. a higher body fat percentage and a different standard of athleticism do exactly nothing to mitigate those problems. if a little osteoporosis here and a pelvic fracture there and a little lanugo here and a broken back there were the extent of the damage -- well, that would be very alarming. problematic for sure. ballet is not a tortured and ambivalent thing like 'problematic' though. ballet is a problem.
what's wrong with ballet is not that contemporary women dancers are too strong. it is that they are required to do things with and to their strong bodies -- and allow, uncomplaining, others to do things to and with their bodies -- that are painful and damaging and sometimes violating and traumatic, on a regular basis. things that are not regularly required of male dancers -- who also work under immense psychological pressure and risk of injury and who are also subject to sexual harassment and assault. the physical damage is not the same and the demand for submission is not the same.
people like to talk about abstract universal things like "dance" and "sport" and even "bodies," and it makes problems seem immense yet vague, eternal, and universally human. but the piece was not afraid to be highly specific. it was written by a dancer and a lover of ballet, but it was was about women. and "ballet is woman" remains a lie no matter how many worshippers of george fucking balanchine refuse to die off.
one can't disregard the widespread specific harm done to women dancers by men in ballet with the reasoning that if ballet is allowed to exist at all it's going to wreck the body anyway, so what's a little extra damage to women in the process. or a lot of extra damage. women artists will endure unspeakable suffering to make art. this does not justify forcing them to endure further suffering for nothing more than men's pleasure in their own power. the former is a bad idea but the latter is abuse, and they are not the same.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:32 PM on October 21, 2018 [28 favorites]
I stopped dancing because it caused me pain, but I still remember the joy and power of dancing that came first.
Nothing new that there are issues, hidden issues in the dance world. Serious performance dance is a weird environment. When I threw these amazing women into the air my number one, no not one my only primary was to be utterly focused there so their return to the hard surface of the stage would be precise. The initiating event of this article was either a freak accident or more likely too much asked of insufficiently trained dancers.
I was incredibly lucky to have amazing teachers (many from NYCB), a primary refrain was to train correctly to prevent injury. And it works, most athletes would implode under the demands of of a professional ballet performance schedule. Some ballet technique class would improve performance in any other discipline. Which is not to say there are not questionable teachers.
But ballet is a performance medium, every shape and size can dance wonderfully but like even the "ugly" actor in a film is actually quite an attractive charismatic person, big budget ballet productions will bubble idealized bodies to the the top. Both from external filtering but training to hold an amazing arabesque molds the body.
As an observer of current trends the influence of the athletic "tricks" on shows like "So you think you can dance" may push kids into trying big dangerous leaps too soon. Shows like that should have a 'no jumps' segment to emphasize the rhythm, timing and pure musical movement of a fine dancer.
The incredible care, focus and precision of the ballet bar can be seen by an external viewer as robotic uniformity. Dancers are deeply focused on personal best and constant careful improvement.
It also can be a cruel unfeeling world, not just for women, male dancers may not have as much 'meeto' abuse although I know I was just lucky and oblivious and missed a bunch. Is it harder on women, but I remember being in the dressing room watching a quite famous older male dancer taping his toes together to be able to move his foot, but yeah although I actually performed on stage 'en point' for a comic role, nothing like the 32 fouettes. I bet they don't auction off any of the blood stained toe shoes.
Deeply deeply hope the meeto movement has a long term effect and cleans up the power structure abuses, hard problem as it's a cloistered obsessive hyper focused world. But through all the problems note the last words of the article " joy and power of dancing that came first." The single primary complaint of most dancers is getting to dance MORE. Dancers want to dance more than anything. Nailing a triple pirouette center stage is more amazing than most can ever imagine, but a stamp on the beat in the back row of the corp is dancing and sends the soul.
posted by sammyo at 8:11 PM on October 21, 2018 [10 favorites]
Nothing new that there are issues, hidden issues in the dance world. Serious performance dance is a weird environment. When I threw these amazing women into the air my number one, no not one my only primary was to be utterly focused there so their return to the hard surface of the stage would be precise. The initiating event of this article was either a freak accident or more likely too much asked of insufficiently trained dancers.
I was incredibly lucky to have amazing teachers (many from NYCB), a primary refrain was to train correctly to prevent injury. And it works, most athletes would implode under the demands of of a professional ballet performance schedule. Some ballet technique class would improve performance in any other discipline. Which is not to say there are not questionable teachers.
But ballet is a performance medium, every shape and size can dance wonderfully but like even the "ugly" actor in a film is actually quite an attractive charismatic person, big budget ballet productions will bubble idealized bodies to the the top. Both from external filtering but training to hold an amazing arabesque molds the body.
As an observer of current trends the influence of the athletic "tricks" on shows like "So you think you can dance" may push kids into trying big dangerous leaps too soon. Shows like that should have a 'no jumps' segment to emphasize the rhythm, timing and pure musical movement of a fine dancer.
The incredible care, focus and precision of the ballet bar can be seen by an external viewer as robotic uniformity. Dancers are deeply focused on personal best and constant careful improvement.
It also can be a cruel unfeeling world, not just for women, male dancers may not have as much 'meeto' abuse although I know I was just lucky and oblivious and missed a bunch. Is it harder on women, but I remember being in the dressing room watching a quite famous older male dancer taping his toes together to be able to move his foot, but yeah although I actually performed on stage 'en point' for a comic role, nothing like the 32 fouettes. I bet they don't auction off any of the blood stained toe shoes.
Deeply deeply hope the meeto movement has a long term effect and cleans up the power structure abuses, hard problem as it's a cloistered obsessive hyper focused world. But through all the problems note the last words of the article " joy and power of dancing that came first." The single primary complaint of most dancers is getting to dance MORE. Dancers want to dance more than anything. Nailing a triple pirouette center stage is more amazing than most can ever imagine, but a stamp on the beat in the back row of the corp is dancing and sends the soul.
posted by sammyo at 8:11 PM on October 21, 2018 [10 favorites]
I was also inadequate for ballet, but I was born inflexible as fuck and can't kick my leg up to my waist, much less my head. People tried to politely ignore that I was "bad" because of that (also not bone thin either but oh well, I had enough wrong with me as is) but there's nothing quite like that ballet shame moment at times, is there.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:08 PM on October 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:08 PM on October 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
Just today I bought my tickets for Mikhailovsky Ballet's Don Quixote. I love classical ballet, and I love to sit right up under the dancers' feet, as close to the stage as I can get. What looks so effortless and merely too beautiful to be real from a few rows back is much more impressive when you are close enough to see how very far it is from effortless. In Petipa's Sleeping Beauty (I think it was) there is a bit in which the lead dancer spins on one foot en pointe for an immensely long time, and her concentration, her control was breathtaking -- I thought she could not continue, I thought she would fall for sure -- but, of course, she did not fall, she pulled it off with perfect beauty and perfect grace. Sometimes I applaud as much from relief as from appreciation.
When I think that people are dedicating their lives to creating beauty like that, and I drop a few hundred bucks every couple months to sit and appreciate what they can do and help to support them in doing it, I feel like that's an OK thing. When I think that the dancers are destroying their health and enduring abuse so that audiences can continue to see an inherently, needlessly destructive form of art, that seems less OK. Are you not entertained? Hmmm.
posted by pH Indicating Socks at 9:37 PM on October 21, 2018 [8 favorites]
When I think that people are dedicating their lives to creating beauty like that, and I drop a few hundred bucks every couple months to sit and appreciate what they can do and help to support them in doing it, I feel like that's an OK thing. When I think that the dancers are destroying their health and enduring abuse so that audiences can continue to see an inherently, needlessly destructive form of art, that seems less OK. Are you not entertained? Hmmm.
posted by pH Indicating Socks at 9:37 PM on October 21, 2018 [8 favorites]
I wonder how much we can blame the success of ballet for its failures.
I'm currently certifying to teach a dance form that diverged from ballet about three hundred years ago. Where ballet became a prestigious high-brow performance art done by professionals at Lincoln Center, we became (royal warrant notwithstanding) an obscure social dance for retirees in church basements.
And we're so much nicer.
I'm trying to imagine what would happen if I were to put a student's leg on my shoulder and pull her in until we were groin-to-groin. She'd probably slap me. And then I'd have a very uncomfortable conversation with the teachers' committee and not get booked very much for a long time.
Perhaps not coincidentally, there aren't ten more lining up behind her, all dreaming of making principal, or a million dollars' worth of donors behind me, looking forward to my next production. We're more desperate for new dancers than they are for lessons.
Is it possible to be a big deal without incentivising abuse (of self and others)?
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 9:53 PM on October 21, 2018 [8 favorites]
I'm currently certifying to teach a dance form that diverged from ballet about three hundred years ago. Where ballet became a prestigious high-brow performance art done by professionals at Lincoln Center, we became (royal warrant notwithstanding) an obscure social dance for retirees in church basements.
And we're so much nicer.
I'm trying to imagine what would happen if I were to put a student's leg on my shoulder and pull her in until we were groin-to-groin. She'd probably slap me. And then I'd have a very uncomfortable conversation with the teachers' committee and not get booked very much for a long time.
Perhaps not coincidentally, there aren't ten more lining up behind her, all dreaming of making principal, or a million dollars' worth of donors behind me, looking forward to my next production. We're more desperate for new dancers than they are for lessons.
Is it possible to be a big deal without incentivising abuse (of self and others)?
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 9:53 PM on October 21, 2018 [8 favorites]
every time I remember that the matthew bourne swan lake didn't make any of the men dance en pointe & was barely ballet as such and still STILL got endless fawning praise for innovation and transgression just because the men were so manly, I break out in reactionary rage hives all over again.
I've read more than one interview with some male dancer who wore pointe shoes for a a special role & had a revelation about how much harder women have to work, without any special spotlight or attention because for them it is a fundamental part of the job and not an ambitious impressive one-time trick. and their take-away from the experience always collapses down into Gosh women sure have a work ethic, sucks to be them, glad this is just a one-time thing for me! it never seems to be: Gosh this hurts so much on top of the regular hurt of balletic exertion, nobody should have to do this every single day, that's insane, p.s. it also looks obscene when you watch it, not beautiful, why do we require it of women, again, when men do very well dancing without it? Or even: Oh wow this was a revelation, all us men should be doing this all the time too, since the path of pain leads to the palace of sublimity after all, why is the pinnacle of our art denied to us and permitted only to women.
none of them seem ashamed or anything, even after the learning experience of it the status quo still seems just fine with them. "we should respect women for having it so much harder," not "we should immediately stop willfully forcing women to have it so much harder, which is a choice we can stop making." I cannot explain this or understand it
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:02 AM on October 22, 2018 [50 favorites]
I've read more than one interview with some male dancer who wore pointe shoes for a a special role & had a revelation about how much harder women have to work, without any special spotlight or attention because for them it is a fundamental part of the job and not an ambitious impressive one-time trick. and their take-away from the experience always collapses down into Gosh women sure have a work ethic, sucks to be them, glad this is just a one-time thing for me! it never seems to be: Gosh this hurts so much on top of the regular hurt of balletic exertion, nobody should have to do this every single day, that's insane, p.s. it also looks obscene when you watch it, not beautiful, why do we require it of women, again, when men do very well dancing without it? Or even: Oh wow this was a revelation, all us men should be doing this all the time too, since the path of pain leads to the palace of sublimity after all, why is the pinnacle of our art denied to us and permitted only to women.
none of them seem ashamed or anything, even after the learning experience of it the status quo still seems just fine with them. "we should respect women for having it so much harder," not "we should immediately stop willfully forcing women to have it so much harder, which is a choice we can stop making." I cannot explain this or understand it
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:02 AM on October 22, 2018 [50 favorites]
I have talked about it before, but I’ll talk about it again: my daughter was training at a professional ballet school and loved ballet. Then, at the ripe age of...fucking FOUR...they told me and her that she would never be a ballerina because her body type was wrong and there’s no point in training her further because it would only lead her to bitterness and disappointment.
There is something wrong with a world where a reputable school can at four years old tell you something like that.
posted by corb at 12:03 AM on October 22, 2018 [44 favorites]
There is something wrong with a world where a reputable school can at four years old tell you something like that.
posted by corb at 12:03 AM on October 22, 2018 [44 favorites]
I can't understand how anyone can enjoy classical ballet knowing what pointe does to feet. I can no more enjoy it than I could watching someone dance with bound feet. It doesn't matter how much grace and elegance there is in the rest of the dance, knowing that this is inherently based on pain, injury and deformity (if you are going to tell me that pointe can be done without any of these, you may be right for non-professional dancers, but it is not the case for professionals) means that I literally feel nausea watching ballet.
All elite sport and dance will have risks of injury, and a greater or lesser amount of pain. Ballet (for women) guarantees the injury and turns the pain into a constant, daily issue; once you have that sort of disregard for pain and suffering baked into something, it doesn't suprise me that other boundaries are non-existent. I sort of feel that a ballet that didn't hate women would look so unlike current ballet that it would need a different name.
posted by Vortisaur at 12:56 AM on October 22, 2018 [20 favorites]
All elite sport and dance will have risks of injury, and a greater or lesser amount of pain. Ballet (for women) guarantees the injury and turns the pain into a constant, daily issue; once you have that sort of disregard for pain and suffering baked into something, it doesn't suprise me that other boundaries are non-existent. I sort of feel that a ballet that didn't hate women would look so unlike current ballet that it would need a different name.
posted by Vortisaur at 12:56 AM on October 22, 2018 [20 favorites]
This was a very interesting read. I both perform and teach partner acrobatics and adagio, which has some similarities to ballet (among many, many differences), and these are things I think about in my own community all the time. It takes constant work, and that is without much of the cultural baggage that ballet carries, to try to make the community a safe place for everyone. The people being lifted tend to be women. The people lifting tend to be men. This alone sets up a dynamic that all too easily aligns with sexist attitudes, both in the dancers themselves and in audience expectations which dancers then feel they need to satisfy.
posted by Nothing at 2:15 AM on October 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Nothing at 2:15 AM on October 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
meaty shoe puppet, what sort of dance are you doing?
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:55 AM on October 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:55 AM on October 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
Having done some ballet and listened to a lot of teachers talk about teaching ballet, I think the issue is poor teaching, exacerbated by views on dancers' bodies, not the other way around. It is not inherent to ballet that dancers become injured (with the exception of people whose hip sockets do not allow for safe ballet dancing). It is my observation that generally get hurt when they are pushed too far, too hard, too fast, while being taught improper technique, while attempting something beyond their strength or skill, AND all while being told not to gain weight.
In the world that we live in, there are definitely not the resources to give excellent, safe, and personalized training to every single person who wants to become a professional dancer. So sure, I think that "such a thing" exists but I don't think there are nearly enough resources to actually bring it to a meaningful number of aspiring young dancers.
(But I also really love ballet and don't want people to think it's a guaranteed knee/hip/back surgery 15 years down the line.)
posted by aperturescientist at 8:18 AM on October 22, 2018 [4 favorites]
In the world that we live in, there are definitely not the resources to give excellent, safe, and personalized training to every single person who wants to become a professional dancer. So sure, I think that "such a thing" exists but I don't think there are nearly enough resources to actually bring it to a meaningful number of aspiring young dancers.
(But I also really love ballet and don't want people to think it's a guaranteed knee/hip/back surgery 15 years down the line.)
posted by aperturescientist at 8:18 AM on October 22, 2018 [4 favorites]
I was also inadequate for ballet
Totally with you, I too was inadequate, lucky to get some novelty roles in a young company but never got to do the neat stuff, triple pirouettes/entrechat huit, no prob but just didn't have the prince look.
age of...fucking FOUR...they told me and her that she would never be a ballerina
This makes me furious and sad, there are so many can only see the superficial, sending toddlers running around in tule outfits. Everyone should dance, just as everyone should do sports and art and math, just because a child is not a violin prodigy does not shut her out of music. Gahhh a pox upon the house of superficiality.
posted by sammyo at 11:04 AM on October 22, 2018 [7 favorites]
Totally with you, I too was inadequate, lucky to get some novelty roles in a young company but never got to do the neat stuff, triple pirouettes/entrechat huit, no prob but just didn't have the prince look.
age of...fucking FOUR...they told me and her that she would never be a ballerina
This makes me furious and sad, there are so many can only see the superficial, sending toddlers running around in tule outfits. Everyone should dance, just as everyone should do sports and art and math, just because a child is not a violin prodigy does not shut her out of music. Gahhh a pox upon the house of superficiality.
posted by sammyo at 11:04 AM on October 22, 2018 [7 favorites]
Then, at the ripe age of...fucking FOUR...they told me and her that she would never be a ballerina because her body type was wrong and there’s no point in training her further because it would only lead her to bitterness and disappointment.
There is something wrong with a world where a reputable school can at four years old tell you something like that.
When I was little, I could take gymnastics as someone who would and could never be a gymnast. I didn't have to compete, I could just do a little routine at the end and that's it. My best friend then did the same in ballet.
And now that seems much less available, in these but in many sports. You can't just do it for fun, you need to do it for competition, with an eye to doing it forever. But most people just won't be gymnasts or ballerinas or sportsball stars, they just want to be able to do it occasionally, for fun, alongside a job.
posted by jeather at 12:36 PM on October 22, 2018 [5 favorites]
There is something wrong with a world where a reputable school can at four years old tell you something like that.
When I was little, I could take gymnastics as someone who would and could never be a gymnast. I didn't have to compete, I could just do a little routine at the end and that's it. My best friend then did the same in ballet.
And now that seems much less available, in these but in many sports. You can't just do it for fun, you need to do it for competition, with an eye to doing it forever. But most people just won't be gymnasts or ballerinas or sportsball stars, they just want to be able to do it occasionally, for fun, alongside a job.
posted by jeather at 12:36 PM on October 22, 2018 [5 favorites]
All elite sport and dance will have risks of injury, and a greater or lesser amount of pain
I think there are comparisons to be drawn to the cumulative head injuries in boxing and American football. No solutions, just noticed a parallel.
posted by Leon at 1:06 PM on October 22, 2018 [4 favorites]
I think there are comparisons to be drawn to the cumulative head injuries in boxing and American football. No solutions, just noticed a parallel.
posted by Leon at 1:06 PM on October 22, 2018 [4 favorites]
Can CLASSICAL not hurt women? The answer is simply no. Classical ballet is prized for its purity and ballerinas are prized for adherence to a 70 year old standard--even more so than their talent. ( Look at how many naysayers Misty Copeland has despite her obvious ability.) Like almost everything related to women's lives from the 19th century it will gladly sacrifice a woman's health and well-being in service of the aesthetic. It is the dance equivalent of a corset.
Good news, as we've thought of alternatives for corsets, there are LOTS and LOTS of other styles of beautiful dance with inclusive choreography and women in leadership out their doing it. In fact, these dance styles are much more alive, abundant, and lucrative in popular culture than ballet. In short, if this makes you mad, support them instead. Start with the Dance Theatre on Harlem or the Martha Graham Dance Company. Like anything led by stuffy old men and prone to abuse, things will only change when the folks in charge start losing money.
posted by CatastropheWaitress at 1:20 PM on October 22, 2018 [8 favorites]
Good news, as we've thought of alternatives for corsets, there are LOTS and LOTS of other styles of beautiful dance with inclusive choreography and women in leadership out their doing it. In fact, these dance styles are much more alive, abundant, and lucrative in popular culture than ballet. In short, if this makes you mad, support them instead. Start with the Dance Theatre on Harlem or the Martha Graham Dance Company. Like anything led by stuffy old men and prone to abuse, things will only change when the folks in charge start losing money.
posted by CatastropheWaitress at 1:20 PM on October 22, 2018 [8 favorites]
Then, at the ripe age of...fucking FOUR...they told me and her that she would never be a ballerina because her body type was wrong and there’s no point in training her further because it would only lead her to bitterness and disappointment.
I hope you marched your little dancer to the Boys and Girls Club, your local Rec center, or a small studio. The big ones want you in a competitive state of mind so you'll pay whatever they want and not ask questions. Like any toxic relationship they want you to think that you are their problem and not their inability to make space with those for a love of dance. I was fortunate enough to go to a studio that had both.
posted by CatastropheWaitress at 1:26 PM on October 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
I hope you marched your little dancer to the Boys and Girls Club, your local Rec center, or a small studio. The big ones want you in a competitive state of mind so you'll pay whatever they want and not ask questions. Like any toxic relationship they want you to think that you are their problem and not their inability to make space with those for a love of dance. I was fortunate enough to go to a studio that had both.
posted by CatastropheWaitress at 1:26 PM on October 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
Just wanted to add that contemporary ballet choreographers seem to be getting the picture : Justin Peck is creating shows for sneakers and Complexions Contemporary Ballet's tribute to David Bowie was some of the best dance I've seen in quite some time--without the usual heteronormativity and nary a toe shoe in sight.
posted by CatastropheWaitress at 1:40 PM on October 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by CatastropheWaitress at 1:40 PM on October 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
Start with the Dance Theatre on Harlem or the Martha Graham Dance Company.
DTS is straight ballet in point shoes, really great amazing ballet. Graham is an example of the modern dance company that is based around a cult of personality and if you imagine that there is no drama occurring backstage....
The smaller modern companies can be amazing and while they perform barefoot ask the best dancers and you'll find most have spent a lot of hours in ballet technique class.
Jerome Robbins did a ballet with sneakers in 1958, can't remember if it's the same one the Joffery did in the 80's, remember it for amazing slides, kicking one leg high and sliding on the toe of the sneaker. Choreographers have used every kind of shoe but the clean line of a basic slipper or toe shoe predominates for it's functionality and visual impact. Wow thanks for that link, really want to see that Bowie piece, but note, lots of point work and great ballet technique, loved that one had both a jazz shoe and a point shoe on.
posted by sammyo at 4:22 PM on October 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
DTS is straight ballet in point shoes, really great amazing ballet. Graham is an example of the modern dance company that is based around a cult of personality and if you imagine that there is no drama occurring backstage....
The smaller modern companies can be amazing and while they perform barefoot ask the best dancers and you'll find most have spent a lot of hours in ballet technique class.
Jerome Robbins did a ballet with sneakers in 1958, can't remember if it's the same one the Joffery did in the 80's, remember it for amazing slides, kicking one leg high and sliding on the toe of the sneaker. Choreographers have used every kind of shoe but the clean line of a basic slipper or toe shoe predominates for it's functionality and visual impact. Wow thanks for that link, really want to see that Bowie piece, but note, lots of point work and great ballet technique, loved that one had both a jazz shoe and a point shoe on.
posted by sammyo at 4:22 PM on October 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
glib comments about how female dancers in the early 1980s would frequently collapse because they wouldn't eat but would do as much cocaine as they needed to get through the day.
I stole & read my mom's copy of Gelsey Kirkland's autobiography when I was young & boy did all that shit seem brutally glamorous when I was 11. still does, as long as I'm just reading about it from several decades' distance and not living it. thank god I have weak ankles, no spatial awareness, and an unbecomingly unballetic head to hold all my big brains or who knows what might have become of me
did take a ballet class for a little while when I was five or six but I remember nothing of it except I assume without that early training in Grace I would hurt myself more severely every time I trip over my own kneecaps as a grown woman
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:15 PM on October 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
I stole & read my mom's copy of Gelsey Kirkland's autobiography when I was young & boy did all that shit seem brutally glamorous when I was 11. still does, as long as I'm just reading about it from several decades' distance and not living it. thank god I have weak ankles, no spatial awareness, and an unbecomingly unballetic head to hold all my big brains or who knows what might have become of me
did take a ballet class for a little while when I was five or six but I remember nothing of it except I assume without that early training in Grace I would hurt myself more severely every time I trip over my own kneecaps as a grown woman
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:15 PM on October 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
The Chinese practice of forcing women into foot binding and calling it beauty is now considered to be barbaric. Forcing dancers into toe shoes to uphold some bullshit ideal of the beautiful ballet dancer is just as barbaric. Ballet is incredibly difficult. It's even harder with deformed feet.
When I think that the dancers are destroying their health and enduring abuse so that audiences can continue to see an inherently, needlessly destructive form of art, that seems less OK. Are you not entertained?
Thoroughbreds and Arabians love to race. I love horses in all their beauty, grace, and athleticism. I used to love to watch horse racing. It's all about money and prestige now, and the horses are disposable. Foals are started before their knee and vertebral joints are fused at two, are incapable of running at four, and have sever arthritis by six.
I used to love ballet for the beauty, grace, and athleticism of the dancers. The women working so hard in ballet are considered just as disposable as the horses in racing. I can't watch it anymore.
posted by BlueHorse at 5:07 PM on October 23, 2018
When I think that the dancers are destroying their health and enduring abuse so that audiences can continue to see an inherently, needlessly destructive form of art, that seems less OK. Are you not entertained?
Thoroughbreds and Arabians love to race. I love horses in all their beauty, grace, and athleticism. I used to love to watch horse racing. It's all about money and prestige now, and the horses are disposable. Foals are started before their knee and vertebral joints are fused at two, are incapable of running at four, and have sever arthritis by six.
I used to love ballet for the beauty, grace, and athleticism of the dancers. The women working so hard in ballet are considered just as disposable as the horses in racing. I can't watch it anymore.
posted by BlueHorse at 5:07 PM on October 23, 2018
The beginning of a Twitter thread by Misha Fletcher:
I just read that whole buzzfeed article and metafilter thread about how ballet hurts women, and I'm absolutely choking on the way this discussion happened without a *single mention* of the woman whose disability basically created pointe dancing in the first place.posted by Lexica at 4:36 PM on October 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
Huh. I've never learned that.
posted by ChuraChura at 6:31 PM on October 24, 2018
posted by ChuraChura at 6:31 PM on October 24, 2018
that might be because much of it is past the point of oversimplification and bordering on the just not true.
whose disability basically created pointe dancing in the first place.
"basically" is doing a whole lot of work there.
A. Taglioni is a name like Pavlova or Fonteyn. a NAME. known even to a non-dancer with a casual side interest, like me. my understanding was that the part of Taglioni's style that actually was connected to any spinal abnormality was the carriage of her arms and head and neck. that is a thing not often discussed in negative or ambivalent articles about the ballet world, not because everybody forgot about her, but because that lasting legacy was not brutally physically damaging to successive generations of dancers. Taglioni's poses were designed around her specific physical attributes; her costumes were cut to display -- not camouflage! -- her rounded shoulders & curved upper back; she made a signature style and a beauty ideal out of the very features that were once laughed at. like Barbra Streisand's nose. the idea of whole schools and practices developing almost accidentally out of one artist's personal anatomy is part of the golden art legend that obsessive little girls read about. like the thing about Pavlova's high arches. Taglioni being taunted as a "hunchback" is up there with Lincoln in his log cabin. you can't make rarified revelation out of this stuff. whether as important dance history or a pocketful of crumpled factoids, it is known.
but B: her development of pointe dancing isn't physically connected to her back situation, that I am aware of. tangentially connected only in that she worked very hard at everything in order to compensate for all her alleged flaws, and also because her father made her. it was not some kind of organic outgrowth of or strategic use of or compensation for her natural posture the way her port de bras apparently was.
It's interesting to me how articles always stress how fit and athletic and strong ballerinas are, how disabled or otherwise "imperfect" bodies are entirely unwelcome,
they really don't. athleticism in women dancers has always been treated, still is often treated, as a mixed virtue, at odds with aesthetics. big muscles, like pockets, ruin the line. articles like this usually stress how aesthetically imperfect bodies are unwelcome and how they are mistreated when they insist on sticking around. big heads and thick ankles and breasts and such. and, once upon a time and place, not being white. none of these are disabilities. or, for that matter, imperfections. even when the worst of these prejudices are suppressed, the balletic physical ideal isn't perfection, it is highly specialized and pretty freaky. meant to be most beautiful in motion. motion hides a multitude of horrors. ballet's manner of gendering pain and suffering is a very particular thing. it is a problem distinct from the cultural glorification of the healthy able body, and it sits uneasily beside it. as much as I hate ballet and the public perception of ballet, both things are legitimately complicated.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:54 PM on October 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
whose disability basically created pointe dancing in the first place.
"basically" is doing a whole lot of work there.
A. Taglioni is a name like Pavlova or Fonteyn. a NAME. known even to a non-dancer with a casual side interest, like me. my understanding was that the part of Taglioni's style that actually was connected to any spinal abnormality was the carriage of her arms and head and neck. that is a thing not often discussed in negative or ambivalent articles about the ballet world, not because everybody forgot about her, but because that lasting legacy was not brutally physically damaging to successive generations of dancers. Taglioni's poses were designed around her specific physical attributes; her costumes were cut to display -- not camouflage! -- her rounded shoulders & curved upper back; she made a signature style and a beauty ideal out of the very features that were once laughed at. like Barbra Streisand's nose. the idea of whole schools and practices developing almost accidentally out of one artist's personal anatomy is part of the golden art legend that obsessive little girls read about. like the thing about Pavlova's high arches. Taglioni being taunted as a "hunchback" is up there with Lincoln in his log cabin. you can't make rarified revelation out of this stuff. whether as important dance history or a pocketful of crumpled factoids, it is known.
but B: her development of pointe dancing isn't physically connected to her back situation, that I am aware of. tangentially connected only in that she worked very hard at everything in order to compensate for all her alleged flaws, and also because her father made her. it was not some kind of organic outgrowth of or strategic use of or compensation for her natural posture the way her port de bras apparently was.
It's interesting to me how articles always stress how fit and athletic and strong ballerinas are, how disabled or otherwise "imperfect" bodies are entirely unwelcome,
they really don't. athleticism in women dancers has always been treated, still is often treated, as a mixed virtue, at odds with aesthetics. big muscles, like pockets, ruin the line. articles like this usually stress how aesthetically imperfect bodies are unwelcome and how they are mistreated when they insist on sticking around. big heads and thick ankles and breasts and such. and, once upon a time and place, not being white. none of these are disabilities. or, for that matter, imperfections. even when the worst of these prejudices are suppressed, the balletic physical ideal isn't perfection, it is highly specialized and pretty freaky. meant to be most beautiful in motion. motion hides a multitude of horrors. ballet's manner of gendering pain and suffering is a very particular thing. it is a problem distinct from the cultural glorification of the healthy able body, and it sits uneasily beside it. as much as I hate ballet and the public perception of ballet, both things are legitimately complicated.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:54 PM on October 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
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Whenever people argue "yes" to that side of it, I start to wonder if this kind of art/sport is really something mankind needs to keep around at all.
posted by trackofalljades at 4:21 PM on October 21, 2018 [31 favorites]