100 greatest non-English language films
November 4, 2018 1:26 AM Subscribe
"BBC Culture polled 209 critics in 43 countries to find the greatest non-English language films in world cinema"– here's the top 100."
I applaud their efforts in the steps they've been taking in improving the diversity of response for these sorts of pieces. It's been something that needed attention for far too long. I hope they keep at it.
As a less significant secondary concern though, I still think they could stand some improvement in selecting people with more expertise in the subject being polled as well. Some of those they picked don't inspire much confidence in that regard, particularly in the US choices.
Anyway, as these things always go, of course there are plenty of things I'd personally want to change, but people won't being badly served by watching almost any of these. Some of the movies are a bit surprising in how high they rank or that they show up, not in a bad way, like Eat Drink Man Woman, A City of Sadness, and Jeanne Dielmann. I'm a bit surprised to see Bicycle Thieves at number two since that seemed to have lost some luster to many in recentish years. There are some I'd prefer to not see on the list, but I don't want to make a stink about it for no reason.
posted by gusottertrout at 2:03 AM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
As a less significant secondary concern though, I still think they could stand some improvement in selecting people with more expertise in the subject being polled as well. Some of those they picked don't inspire much confidence in that regard, particularly in the US choices.
Anyway, as these things always go, of course there are plenty of things I'd personally want to change, but people won't being badly served by watching almost any of these. Some of the movies are a bit surprising in how high they rank or that they show up, not in a bad way, like Eat Drink Man Woman, A City of Sadness, and Jeanne Dielmann. I'm a bit surprised to see Bicycle Thieves at number two since that seemed to have lost some luster to many in recentish years. There are some I'd prefer to not see on the list, but I don't want to make a stink about it for no reason.
posted by gusottertrout at 2:03 AM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
Five Ingmar Bergman movies on one list? What criteria are they using, here? Sure, I've seen them, and fell asleep during half of them. Anyway my two favorites on this list are Eat Drink Man Woman and The Umbrellas of Cherbourg, so I suppose my tastes are not particularly Bergman-inclined. I hope that, as the catalogues of streaming services become deeper, more people can watch more films in more languages and lists like these diversify. There's a movie for everyone.
posted by Mizu at 2:09 AM on November 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Mizu at 2:09 AM on November 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
Glad to see In the Mood for Love in the top 10. Also pleased to see as many genre films as there were. It does read like “non-English films that got wide distribution in the West,” and maybe they should have limited the number of slots one director could have.
Also, only one film from India and that one 70 years old?
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:43 AM on November 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
Also, only one film from India and that one 70 years old?
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:43 AM on November 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
Many great films on that list, but it's missing the one that most deeply affected me and my appreciation of life:
After Life
posted by fairmettle at 2:58 AM on November 4, 2018 [8 favorites]
After Life
posted by fairmettle at 2:58 AM on November 4, 2018 [8 favorites]
This is a weird and lopsided list. Which is not to say that the films on it aren't great. The ones I've seen are. But really, the only Indian film worth a mention is Pather Panchali? Again, it's a great film. But a lot has happened in Indian film since then...
posted by bardophile at 3:14 AM on November 4, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by bardophile at 3:14 AM on November 4, 2018 [8 favorites]
It does read like “non-English films that got wide distribution in the West,”
Heh. I was thinking more, "We all work at the same suburban video store.", but your way is nicer.
Indian films pretty much don't exist for much of the west that thinks Bollywood is all there is to Indian cinema and they know all about it since they saw a couple dance numbers on youtube.
I was amused no Japanese voter put a Kurosawa film on their list, yet he still ends up with two movies in the top five.
posted by gusottertrout at 3:26 AM on November 4, 2018 [11 favorites]
Heh. I was thinking more, "We all work at the same suburban video store.", but your way is nicer.
Indian films pretty much don't exist for much of the west that thinks Bollywood is all there is to Indian cinema and they know all about it since they saw a couple dance numbers on youtube.
I was amused no Japanese voter put a Kurosawa film on their list, yet he still ends up with two movies in the top five.
posted by gusottertrout at 3:26 AM on November 4, 2018 [11 favorites]
La decima vittima ?
posted by mikelieman at 3:36 AM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by mikelieman at 3:36 AM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
I wish there was an "esoteric" variant to these best of lists, e.g. "and here are the top 100 non-English language films if we would disregard every movie that more than 5 (or 10) critics voted on".
I bet it would become a much more exciting and diverse list this way.
posted by bigendian at 4:22 AM on November 4, 2018 [9 favorites]
I bet it would become a much more exciting and diverse list this way.
posted by bigendian at 4:22 AM on November 4, 2018 [9 favorites]
It's definitely a list of good foreign films, but I don't know if it's a good list of foreign films. I've only seen 45 out of the list but liked or loved all of those and most of the other are on my watchlist although now with Filmstruck going away, I'm not sure how I'll see them. The whole idea of distilling 110 years of non-English cinema down to 100 films is just kind of silly.
Spirit of the Beehive and Pan's Labyrinth would make a great double feature.
posted by octothorpe at 5:00 AM on November 4, 2018
Spirit of the Beehive and Pan's Labyrinth would make a great double feature.
posted by octothorpe at 5:00 AM on November 4, 2018
I maintain that 'The Devil's Backbone' is superior to 'Pan's Labyrinth'.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 5:57 AM on November 4, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 5:57 AM on November 4, 2018 [5 favorites]
I really need to catch up with those early Del Toro films; I haven't seen anything before Blade II.
posted by octothorpe at 6:10 AM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by octothorpe at 6:10 AM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
I don't like being repetitive, but I have pretty much the same comments as people have already said:
These are good movies, but it's not a great list, too heavy on directors like Bergman and therefore missing more interesting or surprising choices. In the intro they acknowledge the lack of women directors but defend that with the large number of female critics who helped assemble the list -- but that's not really a defense of that kind of oversight, and shows that they should have better designed the list creation process to ensure that there wasn't this kind of oversight in the first place.
I mean, nothing by Catherine Breillat or Lynne Ramsay? Only one movie by Claire Denis? I'd happily give up several Bergman films, important though they are, to make space for other, more vibrant voices.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:24 AM on November 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
These are good movies, but it's not a great list, too heavy on directors like Bergman and therefore missing more interesting or surprising choices. In the intro they acknowledge the lack of women directors but defend that with the large number of female critics who helped assemble the list -- but that's not really a defense of that kind of oversight, and shows that they should have better designed the list creation process to ensure that there wasn't this kind of oversight in the first place.
I mean, nothing by Catherine Breillat or Lynne Ramsay? Only one movie by Claire Denis? I'd happily give up several Bergman films, important though they are, to make space for other, more vibrant voices.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:24 AM on November 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
Here's the same list on Letterboxd where you can sort it by other criteria, find some entries on popular streaming services, etc. I've only seen around 30 of these, and I probably wouldn't write home about maybe a dozen of them, but a 60% hit rate is pretty good. Some personal favorites did get votes on the extended list: Tampopo (2 votes), Daisies (6 votes), Harakiri (1 vote), and Atanarjuat (2 votes). And some didn't, e.g. A Tale of Winter.
posted by Wobbuffet at 6:35 AM on November 4, 2018
posted by Wobbuffet at 6:35 AM on November 4, 2018
There's a total of 2 Latin American films (Y Tu Mamá También & Pan’s Labyrinth) both are from Mexico, (which no shade on MX but it just happens to be the closest spanish speaking country to the US and the synecdoche that in their mind stands in for all of Latin America), and neither film is especially noteworthy, and not even each director's best film, IMO as the partner of somebody with a PhD in this stuff.
There's much, much, much better stuff in Latin America than the 2 films on this list, which makes the whole list suspect.
posted by signal at 6:41 AM on November 4, 2018 [8 favorites]
There's much, much, much better stuff in Latin America than the 2 films on this list, which makes the whole list suspect.
posted by signal at 6:41 AM on November 4, 2018 [8 favorites]
Are we getting more of these "all-time" cultural lists earlier in the year than usual? Is somebody assuming we just won't be around after November 5th?
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:43 AM on November 4, 2018
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:43 AM on November 4, 2018
There's a total of 2 Latin American films (Y Tu Mamá También & Pan’s Labyrinth)
Also City of God -- but I totally agree about the lack of representation from that region.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:45 AM on November 4, 2018 [7 favorites]
Also City of God -- but I totally agree about the lack of representation from that region.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:45 AM on November 4, 2018 [7 favorites]
But really, the only Indian film worth a mention is Pather Panchali?
Shyam Benegal, Buddhadeb Dasgupta, Adoor Gopalakrishnan, Govind Nihalani, Saeed Akhtar Mirza, Sai Paranjpye might never have existed as far as Western film buffs are concerned. Apparently serious Indian filmmaking began and ended with Satyajit Ray.
posted by splitpeasoup at 6:52 AM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
Shyam Benegal, Buddhadeb Dasgupta, Adoor Gopalakrishnan, Govind Nihalani, Saeed Akhtar Mirza, Sai Paranjpye might never have existed as far as Western film buffs are concerned. Apparently serious Indian filmmaking began and ended with Satyajit Ray.
posted by splitpeasoup at 6:52 AM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
I've seen 80 of the films on the list. It's a decent enough list though I was surprised there was only one Haneke film on it and that it was Amour. I think Code Unknown is a better film.
The only film on the list that I've seen that I thought was garbage was Pan's Labyrinth, but I generally find del Toro films worthless and know I'm in the minority.
I would also have liked to see Head-on on the list.
nothing by Catherine Breillat or Lynne Ramsay
Lynne Ramsay makes English language films.
posted by dobbs at 6:53 AM on November 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
The only film on the list that I've seen that I thought was garbage was Pan's Labyrinth, but I generally find del Toro films worthless and know I'm in the minority.
I would also have liked to see Head-on on the list.
nothing by Catherine Breillat or Lynne Ramsay
Lynne Ramsay makes English language films.
posted by dobbs at 6:53 AM on November 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
Lynne Ramsay makes English language films.
Yeah, I thought of that only after posting, that error is all mine.
I would also have liked to see Head-on on the list.
I could not agree more.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:01 AM on November 4, 2018
Yeah, I thought of that only after posting, that error is all mine.
I would also have liked to see Head-on on the list.
I could not agree more.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:01 AM on November 4, 2018
The list of critics that Mister Bijou linked above is really interesting. I think the list's flatness that people are commenting on is from the fact they only asked for each critic's top ten, then compiled a list of the top 100 overall. That means each critic was more likely to come up with a list of heavy hitters with relatively fewer lesser known picks. I'm sure if we could magically get this list of critics list of top 50 movies and then compile only the ones that fell outside of each critic's top 20, we'd get some really interesting and diverse movies. But they only got 50% of the critics they contacted to respond, so asking them to list 20-30 movies rather than 10 would probably end up with hardly anyone responding.
Anyway, I think it's a pretty interesting list, even though it's quite a bit more middlebrow than one would think based on the concept.
posted by skewed at 7:18 AM on November 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
Anyway, I think it's a pretty interesting list, even though it's quite a bit more middlebrow than one would think based on the concept.
posted by skewed at 7:18 AM on November 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'm sad that in recent years, I've mostly lost the ability to watch movies that aren't in English or French. Dubbing has gone out of fashion, and my eyesight just isn't good enough to keep up with most subtitles. I can choose to watch the action or pore over the titles, but not both.
I wish you could get titles that were friendlier to the visually impaired. Most titles are either plain white, or white with an extremely narrow black outline. Unless the entire frame of the film is very dark, the words pretty much disappear into the picture. I'd love to have the option of white text in a black bar, or with a heavy outline.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:32 AM on November 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
I wish you could get titles that were friendlier to the visually impaired. Most titles are either plain white, or white with an extremely narrow black outline. Unless the entire frame of the film is very dark, the words pretty much disappear into the picture. I'd love to have the option of white text in a black bar, or with a heavy outline.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:32 AM on November 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
I find subtitles much easier to keep up with when I'm watching at the movies as opposed to watching on TV. On the other hand, I do like that watching foreign movies forces me to actually watch the movie and not my phone or laptop.
posted by octothorpe at 7:39 AM on November 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 7:39 AM on November 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think the list's flatness that people are commenting on is from the fact they only asked for each critic's top ten, then compiled a list of the top 100 overall
This was my reading as well. This made the rounds of film Twitter last week, and pretty much everyone's reaction was that it was hard to argue with any individual nomination*, but that doesn't make it a very interesting or representative list.
It's also kind of a fool's errand when the only shared factor is that they're good and not in English. Like listing the best restaurants that don't have on-street parking - the two variables have no correlation.
posted by Think_Long at 7:48 AM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
This was my reading as well. This made the rounds of film Twitter last week, and pretty much everyone's reaction was that it was hard to argue with any individual nomination*, but that doesn't make it a very interesting or representative list.
It's also kind of a fool's errand when the only shared factor is that they're good and not in English. Like listing the best restaurants that don't have on-street parking - the two variables have no correlation.
posted by Think_Long at 7:48 AM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
I didn't notice the full list! With that, I made a top 111 "esoteric" list, in which I disregarded every movie that was mentioned more than 10 times:
https://pastebin.com/S0fDMbhs
I'm not sure how BBC quantified the submissions, I just gave 10 points to every first place, 9 points to second places, etc.
Sadly, it didn't get better in terms of female directors... :(
posted by bigendian at 7:55 AM on November 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
https://pastebin.com/S0fDMbhs
I'm not sure how BBC quantified the submissions, I just gave 10 points to every first place, 9 points to second places, etc.
Sadly, it didn't get better in terms of female directors... :(
posted by bigendian at 7:55 AM on November 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
My tiny complaint: of the Three Colors films, they chose Blue? Seriously?
posted by doubtfulpalace at 8:56 AM on November 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by doubtfulpalace at 8:56 AM on November 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
I think the list's flatness that people are commenting on is from the fact they only asked for each critic's top ten, then compiled a list of the top 100 overall. That means each critic was more likely to come up with a list of heavy hitters with relatively fewer lesser known picks.
I think it's more that too many of the people they asked simply haven't watched enough non-english language films from around the world to have a useful base of knowledge from which to make assessment. There simply isn't any way that people who had wider knowledge of film history would come up with so many similar lists with the most of them reading conveniently like distribution catalogs for the same few major movie companies.
Some lists are heavily dominated by recent movies, some just by the most famous older ones, both are signs of lack of knowledge on the subject. As it stands in movie reviewing, final lists always are going to end up like this simply because of the shallowness of the pool they are drawing from. The methods of compiling these lists always lead to favoring commonality and commonality favors the commercial gatekeepers. Some of that is fine, these are good movies for the most part, but they aren't any better than many hundreds others. Any individual list that doesn't show idiosyncratic selections isn't dealing seriously with the subject. That would be the unavoidable outcome for lists if there weren't such strong built in biases at play.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:17 AM on November 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
I think it's more that too many of the people they asked simply haven't watched enough non-english language films from around the world to have a useful base of knowledge from which to make assessment. There simply isn't any way that people who had wider knowledge of film history would come up with so many similar lists with the most of them reading conveniently like distribution catalogs for the same few major movie companies.
Some lists are heavily dominated by recent movies, some just by the most famous older ones, both are signs of lack of knowledge on the subject. As it stands in movie reviewing, final lists always are going to end up like this simply because of the shallowness of the pool they are drawing from. The methods of compiling these lists always lead to favoring commonality and commonality favors the commercial gatekeepers. Some of that is fine, these are good movies for the most part, but they aren't any better than many hundreds others. Any individual list that doesn't show idiosyncratic selections isn't dealing seriously with the subject. That would be the unavoidable outcome for lists if there weren't such strong built in biases at play.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:17 AM on November 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
A pretty large segment of the critics polled are from primarily English-speaking countries. Given the stated goal of this list you'd think they could have just left a lot of those people out of the process.
posted by theory at 9:19 AM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by theory at 9:19 AM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm always happy to see Jeanne Dielman show up on a list though. I worked part-time as a projectionist at my school when I was an undergrad, with access to a pretty amazing collection and a nice theater. Only once did I abuse this privilege and have a screening for an audience of me alone. Even watching from the booth and having to keep an eye on the projectors, it was a mesmerizing experience. Considering it's not exactly a film full of significant events I'm amazed how many of the details I recall 20 years later.
posted by theory at 9:20 AM on November 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by theory at 9:20 AM on November 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
There's an interesting scale problem here. With 7 billion plus non-English speaking people in the world, 100 films is probably too small to capture really all of the best ones. Sounds like a sampling of many more critics would be better, with a list of 500 to capture the long tail.
posted by cowcowgrasstree at 9:26 AM on November 4, 2018
posted by cowcowgrasstree at 9:26 AM on November 4, 2018
My tiny complaint: of the Three Colors films, they chose Blue? Seriously?
Could be worse, could be White. ;)
posted by bigendian at 9:26 AM on November 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
Could be worse, could be White. ;)
posted by bigendian at 9:26 AM on November 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
Could be worse, could be White. ;)
White > Red > Blue. Science!
posted by doubtfulpalace at 9:48 AM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
White > Red > Blue. Science!
posted by doubtfulpalace at 9:48 AM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
I've seen 66 of these, and although obviously I'd quibble, mostly I want to see the other 44.
posted by acrasis at 9:51 AM on November 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by acrasis at 9:51 AM on November 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'm surprised the list contains Amelie while missing Les Intouchables (with Omar Sy).
I wish I could show this film to everyone. There is literally not a single scene that is not deeply satisfying or that is out of place. Anyone reading this thread looking for ideas, AAA+ recommend, will watch again.
posted by M. at 11:31 AM on November 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
I wish I could show this film to everyone. There is literally not a single scene that is not deeply satisfying or that is out of place. Anyone reading this thread looking for ideas, AAA+ recommend, will watch again.
posted by M. at 11:31 AM on November 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
To be honest, the whole idea of this list is flawed and no amount of tweaking will rescue a list of "the greatest non-English language movies. The idea that you can just throw every other language's movies in one big heap and make a top 100 out of it is absurd.
posted by MartinWisse at 1:06 PM on November 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by MartinWisse at 1:06 PM on November 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
Five Ingmar Bergman movies on one list? What criteria are they using, here?
What Criterion®, more like.
That these mostly (all?) appear to be widely available in the anglosphere on DVD and Bluray, currently in print, at a time when so much is falling by the wayside, seems to be saying something. I’m not really sure what, exactly, but something. Maybe re: the memory, attention span, hip-seeking, and/or age of critics? I dunno. Something.
Also, nthing the Bergman zzzzzzzzz’s. Scandinavia has other directors, y’all! I mean, sure, it’s nice that Bergman’s entire oeuvre (literally) can be got, and at a decent price point, but there’s so much that isn’t available at all. And Bergman, while occasionally massively brilliant, is just so ... incredibly ... fucking ... boring. There’s a couple Dreyers on this list, also part of the Criterion Collection, and that’s nice, but that’s because he was Bergman’s biggest influence and inspiration. Can we step out from under that guy’s shadow, please? Pleeeeease?
posted by Sys Rq at 3:45 PM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
What Criterion®, more like.
That these mostly (all?) appear to be widely available in the anglosphere on DVD and Bluray, currently in print, at a time when so much is falling by the wayside, seems to be saying something. I’m not really sure what, exactly, but something. Maybe re: the memory, attention span, hip-seeking, and/or age of critics? I dunno. Something.
Also, nthing the Bergman zzzzzzzzz’s. Scandinavia has other directors, y’all! I mean, sure, it’s nice that Bergman’s entire oeuvre (literally) can be got, and at a decent price point, but there’s so much that isn’t available at all. And Bergman, while occasionally massively brilliant, is just so ... incredibly ... fucking ... boring. There’s a couple Dreyers on this list, also part of the Criterion Collection, and that’s nice, but that’s because he was Bergman’s biggest influence and inspiration. Can we step out from under that guy’s shadow, please? Pleeeeease?
posted by Sys Rq at 3:45 PM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
I applaud their efforts in the steps they've been taking in improving the diversity of response for these sorts of pieces.
As noted by Theory above, 38% of the critics and experts polled are from English-speaking countries (and 20% are from the US alone). It's better than 90-100% for sure, but the list still reflects what's on the film menu of native English speakers (and in English-language film schools I presume) rather than the extent of non-English filmmaking. In any case, I wish that these kind of best-of list were organized by decade. Many "greatest" movies are pretty much unwatchable by modern audiences (50% of the movies in the list are from the 1950-1970s), not because modern audiences are dumb or that those movies are actually crap, but because the connection and context are no longer there.
posted by elgilito at 4:27 PM on November 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
As noted by Theory above, 38% of the critics and experts polled are from English-speaking countries (and 20% are from the US alone). It's better than 90-100% for sure, but the list still reflects what's on the film menu of native English speakers (and in English-language film schools I presume) rather than the extent of non-English filmmaking. In any case, I wish that these kind of best-of list were organized by decade. Many "greatest" movies are pretty much unwatchable by modern audiences (50% of the movies in the list are from the 1950-1970s), not because modern audiences are dumb or that those movies are actually crap, but because the connection and context are no longer there.
posted by elgilito at 4:27 PM on November 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
Age is likely a part of the issue, but it shouldn't be the determining one since it only gets at part of the issue. Age acts as a limit on how many movies one has seen, so that creates some constraint on what can be "ranked" (ugh), but the bigger problem I think is one of how the notion of "greatness" is understood and transmitted. There are a number of different aspects to it that I won't argue for at the moment, but two significant ones are influence and authority. Bergman is given added importance because he's influential and because other critics have written a lot about him that both enriches or expands his works to those seeing them and enshrines him as someone "important" who needs to be seen.
Those two things are true enough in a narrow way, Bergman is influential and seeing his movies because of that influence helps explain other movies and provide a grounding in film history. At the same time though, influence isn't inherently beneficial. It just is how things developed. The focus on Bergman can obscure other filmmakers who did important work that didn't find an audience or maybe just didn't get ongoing critical attention. Using influence as a marker of importance acts to reaffirm old biases in cultural power, commercial interests, and social values. Young critics can be really good at realizing the value of previously ignored films when they see them for not necessarily carrying all the baggage of past eras as some older critics would. That is if they are able to free themselves from the passed down authority on importance.
In theory, that's the value in polling critics from around the world and from diverse backgrounds, but for it to actually achieve that value, the critics need to look for movies outside the "pantheon" as well as those already enshrined and be able to see them all with fresh eyes, informed by the past but not beholden to it. That doesn't mean they are going to or need to throw out all the old, just balance the old with new and offer new methods of approach to seeing the movies for the rest of us to use as guides. Some of that has been happening in art history, the restoration of ignored women artists and new perspectives given on how to look art in general and specific.
Movies have some of that, but they still seem to lag behind because, I suspect, of the emphasis placed on entertainment on the one side, and the increased turn to "objective" analysis on the other. It's a trap that needs escaping, and some are trying to do just that. Some of the individual lists are turning from received wisdom and celebrating other films. That sort of project just needs to be kept at until people start paying attention to those movies as much as they do Bergman and the others.
posted by gusottertrout at 4:35 PM on November 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
Those two things are true enough in a narrow way, Bergman is influential and seeing his movies because of that influence helps explain other movies and provide a grounding in film history. At the same time though, influence isn't inherently beneficial. It just is how things developed. The focus on Bergman can obscure other filmmakers who did important work that didn't find an audience or maybe just didn't get ongoing critical attention. Using influence as a marker of importance acts to reaffirm old biases in cultural power, commercial interests, and social values. Young critics can be really good at realizing the value of previously ignored films when they see them for not necessarily carrying all the baggage of past eras as some older critics would. That is if they are able to free themselves from the passed down authority on importance.
In theory, that's the value in polling critics from around the world and from diverse backgrounds, but for it to actually achieve that value, the critics need to look for movies outside the "pantheon" as well as those already enshrined and be able to see them all with fresh eyes, informed by the past but not beholden to it. That doesn't mean they are going to or need to throw out all the old, just balance the old with new and offer new methods of approach to seeing the movies for the rest of us to use as guides. Some of that has been happening in art history, the restoration of ignored women artists and new perspectives given on how to look art in general and specific.
Movies have some of that, but they still seem to lag behind because, I suspect, of the emphasis placed on entertainment on the one side, and the increased turn to "objective" analysis on the other. It's a trap that needs escaping, and some are trying to do just that. Some of the individual lists are turning from received wisdom and celebrating other films. That sort of project just needs to be kept at until people start paying attention to those movies as much as they do Bergman and the others.
posted by gusottertrout at 4:35 PM on November 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
Speaking as a Japanese person who has kinda sorta worked in the Japanese film biz for the past 20-something years, there are far too many Kurosawa films on this list. I find it kind of telling that none of the Japanese critics chose a single one, though that feels a bit extreme too, tbh.
posted by misozaki at 5:06 PM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by misozaki at 5:06 PM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
No Brotherhood of the Wolf? I mean, you tell me of another historical costume drama Kung-fu horror movie that's half as good!
posted by cjorgensen at 5:36 PM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by cjorgensen at 5:36 PM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
Anyway, Jeanne Dielman, 23 Commerce Quay, 1080 Brussels is my favorite film on that list, so at least it’s in the top 20, but it should be in the conversation for best film ever.
It continually astounds me. I had the pleasure of seeing it on the big screen and it was one of, if not the, greatest moviegoing experiences of my life.
posted by Automocar at 6:22 PM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
It continually astounds me. I had the pleasure of seeing it on the big screen and it was one of, if not the, greatest moviegoing experiences of my life.
posted by Automocar at 6:22 PM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
Speaking as a Japanese person who has kinda sorta worked in the Japanese film biz for the past 20-something years, there are far too many Kurosawa films on this list. I find it kind of telling that none of the Japanese critics chose a single one, though that feels a bit extreme too, tbh.
That has always been the case with Kurosawa, though. He’s always been much more appreciated outside Japan than inside, since Rashomon went to the Venice Film Festival at the recommendation of a teacher of Italian in Japan, despite the entire Japanese film industry going, “Really? Him? He’s not very representative of our national cinema. You sure you wouldn’t rather have some Ozū?” Rashomon went on to win the Italian Critics Award and the Golden Lion, then an Oscar, and that was that. From that point on, as far as the West was concerned, Japanese cinema *was* Kurosawa.
I’m not saying that’s the way it should be, but that’s the way it is.
posted by Sys Rq at 7:00 PM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
That has always been the case with Kurosawa, though. He’s always been much more appreciated outside Japan than inside, since Rashomon went to the Venice Film Festival at the recommendation of a teacher of Italian in Japan, despite the entire Japanese film industry going, “Really? Him? He’s not very representative of our national cinema. You sure you wouldn’t rather have some Ozū?” Rashomon went on to win the Italian Critics Award and the Golden Lion, then an Oscar, and that was that. From that point on, as far as the West was concerned, Japanese cinema *was* Kurosawa.
I’m not saying that’s the way it should be, but that’s the way it is.
posted by Sys Rq at 7:00 PM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
The absence of Suzuki Seijun from this list is shocking.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:03 PM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:03 PM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
No Brotherhood of the Wolf? I mean, you tell me of another historical costume drama Kung-fu horror movie that's half as good!
The problem with that film is that an attempt at describing it makes you sound insane when you point out that it is actually truly amazing, and that somewhere about halfway through your mind snaps and you realise what you are watching. For me it was halfway between appearance of Monica Belluchi as the Papal Assassin courtesan and the fight with the chain sword.
Which is to say, it should be number one.
posted by DangerIsMyMiddleName at 8:34 PM on November 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
The problem with that film is that an attempt at describing it makes you sound insane when you point out that it is actually truly amazing, and that somewhere about halfway through your mind snaps and you realise what you are watching. For me it was halfway between appearance of Monica Belluchi as the Papal Assassin courtesan and the fight with the chain sword.
Which is to say, it should be number one.
posted by DangerIsMyMiddleName at 8:34 PM on November 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
I learned that in film as in music, my favorite film sucks!
The only Fellini movie I love is Amarcord, but inevitably critics pick La Dolce Vita and 8 1/2 which I care not for. Yeah, yeah I know that by today's standards that Amarcord is as sexist as hell but it also shows viscerally the slide into fascism in Italy.
posted by a humble nudibranch at 8:55 PM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
The only Fellini movie I love is Amarcord, but inevitably critics pick La Dolce Vita and 8 1/2 which I care not for. Yeah, yeah I know that by today's standards that Amarcord is as sexist as hell but it also shows viscerally the slide into fascism in Italy.
posted by a humble nudibranch at 8:55 PM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
That these mostly (all?) appear to be widely available in the anglosphere on DVD and Bluray, currently in print, at a time when so much is falling by the wayside, seems to be saying something. I’m not really sure what, exactly, but something. Maybe re: the memory, attention span, hip-seeking, and/or age of critics? I dunno. Something.
Or: you can only like what you can actually watch. Just doesn't seem that complex to me. Of the movies on this list I've seen, the vast majority were on a rep-theater screen. If you don't happen to live in a town with good offerings in that regard, DVDs/Blu-ray are it.
Young critics can be really good at realizing the value of previously ignored films when they see them for not necessarily carrying all the baggage of past eras as some older critics would.
This is what makes the contraction of availability of older films so deadly. Young people typically dig up what their grandparents or great-grandparents did to find something cool and new. But you can't dig up what's not there.
posted by praemunire at 9:11 PM on November 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
Or: you can only like what you can actually watch. Just doesn't seem that complex to me. Of the movies on this list I've seen, the vast majority were on a rep-theater screen. If you don't happen to live in a town with good offerings in that regard, DVDs/Blu-ray are it.
Young critics can be really good at realizing the value of previously ignored films when they see them for not necessarily carrying all the baggage of past eras as some older critics would.
This is what makes the contraction of availability of older films so deadly. Young people typically dig up what their grandparents or great-grandparents did to find something cool and new. But you can't dig up what's not there.
posted by praemunire at 9:11 PM on November 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
Lina Wertmüller should have made it for Swept Away or Seven Beauties.
posted by xammerboy at 10:18 PM on November 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by xammerboy at 10:18 PM on November 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
This is what makes the contraction of availability of older films so deadly. Young people typically dig up what their grandparents or great-grandparents did to find something cool and new. But you can't dig up what's not there.
Yeah, absolutely. I've been a avid movie watcher and reader of criticism since I was a kid, so I thought I knew a good chunk of movie history. Not everything of course, but "the important stuff". I knew there were going to be some movies that fell through the cracks and needed reevaluation since I'd seen some and read mention of others I couldn't find, but when I joined the Mubi movie forums, back when they were a thing, it was a revelation. Many of the users there had access to torrents from sites that were devoted to digging up movies from around the world that never got mentioned in most general histories of film.
One year, as a lark, someone on Mubi organized a "World Cup" of films, where a bunch of different users each represented a different country, or area of the world when a country alone didn't have enough movies available on torrents for a good selection, and picked a selection of their films to put up against each other in matches where the community would watch them all and then vote on which choices were better. It was kind of insane, coming from the enthusiasm of being able to share interests, as the entirety of competition ended up having a body of 378 movies to watch and compare. It took the better part of a year to run the event, but I watched all of them as did a number of others. (It helped having seen some of them previously that I could skip, but it was still a crazy number of movies to watch.) The experience was a revelation. It wasn't just some decent stuff that fell through the cracks, but an entirely different movie history that opened up.
Some of the movies chosen have since been released on DVD or found their way into books like 1001 Movies to Watch Before You Die, but seeing so many fantastic films, movies better than many of the "canonical" selections most places had pushed as the usual list of great and necessary films to see. The people involved in the matches came from around the world themselves and devoted time to studying the movie histories of the different countries and digging up the films so others could watch them.
It quickly became apparent how much film history had been ignored for not fitting the standard narrative of development that matched the interests of distributing companies and the limited knowledge of past critics who also lacked access to most movies. Some of the movies or directors chosen were familiar in name but received so little mention in most histories that the assumption was they were of only secondary importance, if that, but being able to actually see the films showed how wrong that assessment was. It was mind-blowing and highlighted how readily ignorance can accompany "knowledge" and good intent in wishing to celebrate the diversity of history.
Since then I've been ever more avid about making sure that doesn't happen again, which I guess probably makes me a pain in the ass at times for trying to push others to not make the same mistakes I did, but I strongly feel that in order to change the culture we first need to understand it and not let the past dictate the present via the interests of some privileged few. My hope for future critics is that they forget the history as it's been taught, not ignoring it, but taking it only as one small piece of a much larger whole because that's all it is. Make a better history by throwing light on those people and things which have been ignored and we'll have a better culture in the end. That's true whether for study of a single culture, like the US, and even more so for that of the wider world.
(And, really, check out the movies on the list I linked if you get a chance. Most of them are fantastic.)
posted by gusottertrout at 11:32 PM on November 4, 2018 [15 favorites]
Yeah, absolutely. I've been a avid movie watcher and reader of criticism since I was a kid, so I thought I knew a good chunk of movie history. Not everything of course, but "the important stuff". I knew there were going to be some movies that fell through the cracks and needed reevaluation since I'd seen some and read mention of others I couldn't find, but when I joined the Mubi movie forums, back when they were a thing, it was a revelation. Many of the users there had access to torrents from sites that were devoted to digging up movies from around the world that never got mentioned in most general histories of film.
One year, as a lark, someone on Mubi organized a "World Cup" of films, where a bunch of different users each represented a different country, or area of the world when a country alone didn't have enough movies available on torrents for a good selection, and picked a selection of their films to put up against each other in matches where the community would watch them all and then vote on which choices were better. It was kind of insane, coming from the enthusiasm of being able to share interests, as the entirety of competition ended up having a body of 378 movies to watch and compare. It took the better part of a year to run the event, but I watched all of them as did a number of others. (It helped having seen some of them previously that I could skip, but it was still a crazy number of movies to watch.) The experience was a revelation. It wasn't just some decent stuff that fell through the cracks, but an entirely different movie history that opened up.
Some of the movies chosen have since been released on DVD or found their way into books like 1001 Movies to Watch Before You Die, but seeing so many fantastic films, movies better than many of the "canonical" selections most places had pushed as the usual list of great and necessary films to see. The people involved in the matches came from around the world themselves and devoted time to studying the movie histories of the different countries and digging up the films so others could watch them.
It quickly became apparent how much film history had been ignored for not fitting the standard narrative of development that matched the interests of distributing companies and the limited knowledge of past critics who also lacked access to most movies. Some of the movies or directors chosen were familiar in name but received so little mention in most histories that the assumption was they were of only secondary importance, if that, but being able to actually see the films showed how wrong that assessment was. It was mind-blowing and highlighted how readily ignorance can accompany "knowledge" and good intent in wishing to celebrate the diversity of history.
Since then I've been ever more avid about making sure that doesn't happen again, which I guess probably makes me a pain in the ass at times for trying to push others to not make the same mistakes I did, but I strongly feel that in order to change the culture we first need to understand it and not let the past dictate the present via the interests of some privileged few. My hope for future critics is that they forget the history as it's been taught, not ignoring it, but taking it only as one small piece of a much larger whole because that's all it is. Make a better history by throwing light on those people and things which have been ignored and we'll have a better culture in the end. That's true whether for study of a single culture, like the US, and even more so for that of the wider world.
(And, really, check out the movies on the list I linked if you get a chance. Most of them are fantastic.)
posted by gusottertrout at 11:32 PM on November 4, 2018 [15 favorites]
gusottertrout: It was kind of insane, coming from the enthusiasm of being able to share interests, as the entirety of competition ended up having a body of 378 movies to watch and compare.
That’s a good list of films, and based off the one’s I’ve seen, the rest are all worth seeking out. And I shouldn’t have expected anything different, but I was disappointed again that the list had so few films directed by women, ten or twelve, I think. I know that statistic about 4% of films being directed by women, but that just means men get 19 out of 20 chances of making a good film, it says nothing about the success rate. If I ever get back into the movie-watching habit, there are hundreds of films directed by women that I want to see.
posted by Kattullus at 12:58 AM on November 5, 2018
That’s a good list of films, and based off the one’s I’ve seen, the rest are all worth seeking out. And I shouldn’t have expected anything different, but I was disappointed again that the list had so few films directed by women, ten or twelve, I think. I know that statistic about 4% of films being directed by women, but that just means men get 19 out of 20 chances of making a good film, it says nothing about the success rate. If I ever get back into the movie-watching habit, there are hundreds of films directed by women that I want to see.
posted by Kattullus at 12:58 AM on November 5, 2018
Yeah, part of that kind from the initial rules of the event, where you had to have team captains, a couple directors that you'd choose several films from, to give an idea of body of work. The site was called Auteurs back then and some people really preferred director histories. Later events went differently, but when you're dealing with the history of film you're also sort of caught by how few women were given the chance to direct over the years too.
That issue wasn't ignored on the site though, here, for example is Kenji's list of Essential Films Directed by Women, and it was a frequent topic of discussion. (Kenji's other Essential lists are worth checking out too for anyone looking to delve into different histories.)
posted by gusottertrout at 1:23 AM on November 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
That issue wasn't ignored on the site though, here, for example is Kenji's list of Essential Films Directed by Women, and it was a frequent topic of discussion. (Kenji's other Essential lists are worth checking out too for anyone looking to delve into different histories.)
posted by gusottertrout at 1:23 AM on November 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
Though I should add, so as not to make things seem too rose tinted, that there was also still some serious sexism from some members of the site as well, having a lot of young men involved. The "discussions" were often more arguments, but the general drift of the site was in full support.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:32 AM on November 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 1:32 AM on November 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
gusottertrout, that is a great list of films. Wow.
posted by misozaki at 1:48 AM on November 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by misozaki at 1:48 AM on November 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
gusottertrout: Kenji's list of Essential Films Directed by Women
Any list that starts off by highlighting Mädchen in Uniform is worth exploring. Thanks!
posted by Kattullus at 2:40 AM on November 5, 2018
Any list that starts off by highlighting Mädchen in Uniform is worth exploring. Thanks!
posted by Kattullus at 2:40 AM on November 5, 2018
I'm surprised Antonia or Karakter didn't make the list. Both won Oscars for best foreign language film.
posted by Pendragon at 7:40 AM on November 5, 2018
posted by Pendragon at 7:40 AM on November 5, 2018
What Criterion®, more like.
I was curious about that (because there is a lot of the usual suspects on that list)... Looking through the BBC list, by my reckoning, there's about 26 that are not Criterion releases of some sort. Of that 26, 16 have an in print physical release. 7 are out of print on physical media in North America and only 3 have not been available at all on physical media in North America.
posted by Ashwagandha at 8:37 AM on November 5, 2018 [4 favorites]
I was curious about that (because there is a lot of the usual suspects on that list)... Looking through the BBC list, by my reckoning, there's about 26 that are not Criterion releases of some sort. Of that 26, 16 have an in print physical release. 7 are out of print on physical media in North America and only 3 have not been available at all on physical media in North America.
posted by Ashwagandha at 8:37 AM on November 5, 2018 [4 favorites]
I wish you could get titles that were friendlier to the visually impaired. Most titles are either plain white, or white with an extremely narrow black outline. Unless the entire frame of the film is very dark, the words pretty much disappear into the picture. I'd love to have the option of white text in a black bar, or with a heavy outline.
In VLC at least, if you watch films where the subtitles are in a separate file (i.e. most of them, especially more modern films) then you can display them with more-or-less any colour, size and outline that suits you, and in various positions on the screen. I often use yellow subtitles to prevent them disappearing.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 9:45 AM on November 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
In VLC at least, if you watch films where the subtitles are in a separate file (i.e. most of them, especially more modern films) then you can display them with more-or-less any colour, size and outline that suits you, and in various positions on the screen. I often use yellow subtitles to prevent them disappearing.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 9:45 AM on November 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
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Anyway, Jeanne Dielman, 23 Commerce Quay, 1080 Brussels is my favorite film on that list, so at least it’s in the top 20, but it should be in the conversation for best film ever.
But, y’know, sexism.
posted by Kattullus at 1:54 AM on November 4, 2018 [16 favorites]