How the Inca Wrote
November 26, 2018 5:58 AM Subscribe
How to Read Inca by Daniel Cossins is an overview of current understanding of khipu, the Incan system of encoding information in knots, which has been coming along in leaps and bounds recently. To look at khipu yourself, check out the Khipu Database Project.
I want to say it’s knot amazing, but it is amazing.
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:27 AM on November 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:27 AM on November 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
More seriously, it also makes me wonder what other forms of information storage trchniques have been developed and lost in the human past. How many “pre-literate” societies have have been literate, or partially so, just using methods we don’t recognize?
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:30 AM on November 26, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:30 AM on November 26, 2018 [15 favorites]
I thought it was just going to be more nuanced ways of tallying and recording numbers like the stuff in this proto-cuneiform post from last year, but they found both more semantically sophisticated content and phonetic content!
I wonder if you could build an automated khipu-type “printer” with robotic fingers or something to tie knots, and if that might be more useful than computer-driven braille embossing on paper, in some circumstances, for blind people.
posted by XMLicious at 7:05 AM on November 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
I wonder if you could build an automated khipu-type “printer” with robotic fingers or something to tie knots, and if that might be more useful than computer-driven braille embossing on paper, in some circumstances, for blind people.
posted by XMLicious at 7:05 AM on November 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
Given that thread color appears to be a part of the system, probably not as useful for blind people.
posted by timdiggerm at 7:15 AM on November 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by timdiggerm at 7:15 AM on November 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
How many “pre-literate” societies have have been literate, or partially so, just using methods we don’t recognize?
it's not just using methods that modern people are unable to recognize, it's methods that were deliberately destroyed by colonizers, deliberately denigrated by people whose agenda was to profit from the enslavement and extermination of others whose "civilized" accomplishments were hidden in order to make them appear less than human and thereby justifying their mistreatment.
anyway. this is a good and informative article that nevertheless suffers a little bit from a silly headline. who is "we"?
posted by poffin boffin at 7:18 AM on November 26, 2018 [16 favorites]
it's not just using methods that modern people are unable to recognize, it's methods that were deliberately destroyed by colonizers, deliberately denigrated by people whose agenda was to profit from the enslavement and extermination of others whose "civilized" accomplishments were hidden in order to make them appear less than human and thereby justifying their mistreatment.
anyway. this is a good and informative article that nevertheless suffers a little bit from a silly headline. who is "we"?
posted by poffin boffin at 7:18 AM on November 26, 2018 [16 favorites]
Yeah, I went with the headline from the print edition because the online headline is not good.
posted by Kattullus at 7:33 AM on November 26, 2018
posted by Kattullus at 7:33 AM on November 26, 2018
I saw one of these recently at the Smithsonian Museum of the American Indian, and there is something so humbling about standing in front of a writing (recording?) system that is so utterly different from the one you are accustomed to. When I first learned about these it exploded my brain in the best of ways.
posted by ikahime at 7:57 AM on November 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by ikahime at 7:57 AM on November 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
I want to believe and the numeric section of this article is pretty convincing. That revista he found letting him correlate khipu encoding with contemporary Spanish writing is really compelling.
But the evidence put forth for phonetic encoding in this article is still pretty thin. I'm gonna sound like a jerk for criticizing Sabine Hyland's work; she's the expert, not me. But the description of her decoding methods sounds an awful lot like the wishful decoding that has led to so many false "decipherments" of the Voynich manuscript. "She took a gamble and assumed that the ribbons referred to a person known as Alluka." "trying this alongside the other syllables gave, with a little wiggle room, “Yakapar”".
It's that leap from an initial guess to further decodings involving "wiggle room" that is so dangerous. It's very easy for well meaning people to find patterns that aren't really there. But again, I feel like a jerk criticizing an expert whose work I know nothing about other than this one article. Fortunately further decoding efforts will hopefully establish whether her decoding actually makes sense or not. (The bad Voynich decipherments are always found out.)
posted by Nelson at 7:57 AM on November 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
But the evidence put forth for phonetic encoding in this article is still pretty thin. I'm gonna sound like a jerk for criticizing Sabine Hyland's work; she's the expert, not me. But the description of her decoding methods sounds an awful lot like the wishful decoding that has led to so many false "decipherments" of the Voynich manuscript. "She took a gamble and assumed that the ribbons referred to a person known as Alluka." "trying this alongside the other syllables gave, with a little wiggle room, “Yakapar”".
It's that leap from an initial guess to further decodings involving "wiggle room" that is so dangerous. It's very easy for well meaning people to find patterns that aren't really there. But again, I feel like a jerk criticizing an expert whose work I know nothing about other than this one article. Fortunately further decoding efforts will hopefully establish whether her decoding actually makes sense or not. (The bad Voynich decipherments are always found out.)
posted by Nelson at 7:57 AM on November 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
Also it's the Mayans, not the Incans, but a curse forever on the Catholic Church and its leader Bishop Diego de Landa who burned the entire library of a whole culture of the New World.
(Yes, yes, I know de Landa is also held up as an admirable example of a contemporary ethnographer, who wrote down a lot of his observations about the Maya. History is complex and colonialism is ugly. But destroying the entire written record of a culture because you believe your religion is true and theirs is wrong is evil.)
posted by Nelson at 8:01 AM on November 26, 2018 [13 favorites]
We found a large number of books in these characters and, as they contained nothing in which were not to be seen as superstition and lies of the devil, we burned them all, which they (the Maya) regretted to an amazing degree, and which caused them much affliction.We do know how to read the Mayan Codices, more or less, the problem is only four survive.
(Yes, yes, I know de Landa is also held up as an admirable example of a contemporary ethnographer, who wrote down a lot of his observations about the Maya. History is complex and colonialism is ugly. But destroying the entire written record of a culture because you believe your religion is true and theirs is wrong is evil.)
posted by Nelson at 8:01 AM on November 26, 2018 [13 favorites]
I wonder how much information Hyland was given about the phonetic aspects of the Collata khipus by the unnamed "villagers" and "man in charge of the khipus". Certainly they seem to have pointed out the significance of the different fibers as well as the clan insignia that she used to make her "Alluka" supposition.
“This is a writing system that is inherently three-dimensional, dependent on touch as well as sight”
I wonder if there are any native sign language users working in this area. I know that ASL is heavily dependent on three-dimensional context to change the meaning of various signs. Seems to me that someone who is used to communicating in that mode might have some unique insights here.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:20 AM on November 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
“This is a writing system that is inherently three-dimensional, dependent on touch as well as sight”
I wonder if there are any native sign language users working in this area. I know that ASL is heavily dependent on three-dimensional context to change the meaning of various signs. Seems to me that someone who is used to communicating in that mode might have some unique insights here.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:20 AM on November 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
Given that thread color appears to be a part of the system, probably not as useful for blind people.
Yeah, sourcing the vicuña hair would probably be an obstacle too.
posted by XMLicious at 11:11 AM on November 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
How many “pre-literate” societies have have been literate, or partially so, just using methods we don’t recognize?
Lynne Kelly proposes that "many ancient monuments [...] were built primarily as memory spaces. Their design was specifically to enable elders to practice their memorisation, to teach it and to perform the knowledge for the community according to the various levels of initiation of the audience. Elders memorised the knowledge on which survival, physically and culturally, depended." She has undertaken experiments, 36 of them so far, with memorizing information using such systems.
As applied by the Warlpiri people, location-based memory is only one component of a larger system. The (physical and cultural) survival knowledge is also embedded in mythology, ceremony, and law, and responsibiilty for maintaining it is embedded in the population structure via the "skin name" system of classificatory kinship. Every story has a time of year and a location where it is told, a skin responsible for knowing it, another skin responsible for performing the ceremony where that first skin recounts it, and so on.
posted by eritain at 11:50 AM on November 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
Lynne Kelly proposes that "many ancient monuments [...] were built primarily as memory spaces. Their design was specifically to enable elders to practice their memorisation, to teach it and to perform the knowledge for the community according to the various levels of initiation of the audience. Elders memorised the knowledge on which survival, physically and culturally, depended." She has undertaken experiments, 36 of them so far, with memorizing information using such systems.
As applied by the Warlpiri people, location-based memory is only one component of a larger system. The (physical and cultural) survival knowledge is also embedded in mythology, ceremony, and law, and responsibiilty for maintaining it is embedded in the population structure via the "skin name" system of classificatory kinship. Every story has a time of year and a location where it is told, a skin responsible for knowing it, another skin responsible for performing the ceremony where that first skin recounts it, and so on.
posted by eritain at 11:50 AM on November 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
Fascinating, thank you.
posted by jacquilynne at 1:14 PM on November 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 1:14 PM on November 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm a little skeptical of these stories, because we already know what most khipus are— they're spreadsheets. I'm relying here on "Mathematical Ideas of the Incas", by Marcia Ascher, in Native American Mathematics, ed. Michael Closs, 1986. See also the Aschers' book here.
Nelson's reference to the self-delusions of Voynich Mansuscript interpretations is worth worrying about. The nice thing about the Aschers' view is that it's confirmed in a detailed, impossible-to-fake way by the khipus themselves. That is, you may have a set of numbers on one one cord, and on the next cord there's a sum of that set, and there's other sums based on that. You cannot get such relationships if the numbers all referred to words or sounds.
That doesn't mean everything is a number. There are also what the Aschers call number labels (often supplemented by color). It's like you used "Blue 41" to refer to a particular city. I assume that recent research focuses on these labels.
But they make up only a fraction of the total data, and often it's clear that they're labels for the numerical magnitudes— as opposed to complete sentences or poems or something. E.g. Marcia Ascher describes one khipu where labels alternate string-for-string with numerical values. Note that Urton's revisita is precisely the sort of accounting data that this system facilitates.
posted by zompist at 4:12 PM on November 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
Nelson's reference to the self-delusions of Voynich Mansuscript interpretations is worth worrying about. The nice thing about the Aschers' view is that it's confirmed in a detailed, impossible-to-fake way by the khipus themselves. That is, you may have a set of numbers on one one cord, and on the next cord there's a sum of that set, and there's other sums based on that. You cannot get such relationships if the numbers all referred to words or sounds.
That doesn't mean everything is a number. There are also what the Aschers call number labels (often supplemented by color). It's like you used "Blue 41" to refer to a particular city. I assume that recent research focuses on these labels.
But they make up only a fraction of the total data, and often it's clear that they're labels for the numerical magnitudes— as opposed to complete sentences or poems or something. E.g. Marcia Ascher describes one khipu where labels alternate string-for-string with numerical values. Note that Urton's revisita is precisely the sort of accounting data that this system facilitates.
posted by zompist at 4:12 PM on November 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
I thought I understood what was going on looking at the diagrams. Then they showed photos of the actual artifacts and I realized I had no idea what was what. The complexity is daunting, though I supposed a written document would look similarly complex if it couldn’t read. Still, the inherent flexibility ... I am glad my livelihood doesn’t depend on becoming skilled at reading these.
Really fascinating. Human ingenuity is stunning.
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 6:16 AM on November 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
Really fascinating. Human ingenuity is stunning.
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 6:16 AM on November 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
> XMLicious:
"Given that thread color appears to be a part of the system, probably not as useful for blind people.
Yeah, sourcing the vicuña hair would probably be an obstacle too."
but only a minor obstacle, for both. an additional key would need to be added, to be read, header information of some kind, specialized knots or series of them.
~~~~
I love the mental picture of these "khipumayuq, or the keepers of the khipus". They were trained to tie and knot these records, but also carried them? Or Couriers carried them, were they apprentices to the kipumayuq?
"Couriers would loop the cords over their shoulders and run with them across the empire." I can't imagine how heavy these cords would become. How fast would they need to go? They had bridges and routes made specifically for them. (and I bet each and every one was a calendar month specimen. Hello Inca UPS man. ;) ) Would they travel alone, that's faster, or would they travel in groups, or with guards?
Did the couriers carry a key khipu for each of the khipus in a message bundle, or would they memorize what each one meant, otherwise you just have a jumble of numbers sent from state to state. I'd imagine if these keys/message khipus existed, they would likely get recycled into new messages/records, making theme more rare than census data.
And what if you dropped a bundle? if everything is out of order, how would you put them back in place? Would it be better for a messenger to not understand the language of the messages, to reduce temptation of corruption?
Would these young couriers be trained in multiple spoken languages or dialects to convey orders? If they weren't highly trained, then the requirement for additional communication in 'written' form becomes more likely.
With such an efficient postal system, I can't imagine people wouldn't want to send messages or demand additional information from other areas, 'since you're running that way, anyway'
Ah, so many questions!
posted by dreamling at 8:43 AM on November 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
"Given that thread color appears to be a part of the system, probably not as useful for blind people.
Yeah, sourcing the vicuña hair would probably be an obstacle too."
but only a minor obstacle, for both. an additional key would need to be added, to be read, header information of some kind, specialized knots or series of them.
~~~~
I love the mental picture of these "khipumayuq, or the keepers of the khipus". They were trained to tie and knot these records, but also carried them? Or Couriers carried them, were they apprentices to the kipumayuq?
"Couriers would loop the cords over their shoulders and run with them across the empire." I can't imagine how heavy these cords would become. How fast would they need to go? They had bridges and routes made specifically for them. (and I bet each and every one was a calendar month specimen. Hello Inca UPS man. ;) ) Would they travel alone, that's faster, or would they travel in groups, or with guards?
Did the couriers carry a key khipu for each of the khipus in a message bundle, or would they memorize what each one meant, otherwise you just have a jumble of numbers sent from state to state. I'd imagine if these keys/message khipus existed, they would likely get recycled into new messages/records, making theme more rare than census data.
And what if you dropped a bundle? if everything is out of order, how would you put them back in place? Would it be better for a messenger to not understand the language of the messages, to reduce temptation of corruption?
Would these young couriers be trained in multiple spoken languages or dialects to convey orders? If they weren't highly trained, then the requirement for additional communication in 'written' form becomes more likely.
With such an efficient postal system, I can't imagine people wouldn't want to send messages or demand additional information from other areas, 'since you're running that way, anyway'
Ah, so many questions!
posted by dreamling at 8:43 AM on November 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Some of your questions should be answered here. The chaskis were the couriers, the khipumayuq were the khipu-makers. The article on khipus also has a lot of good info.
There could be a lot of individual cords, but they were usually short, so I don't expect they'd tangle up. As they're tied, they can't get out of order.
As the chaskis worked for the government, they probably only had to worry about one language-- Quechua, the language of the Incas, still the most widely spoken Native American language.
posted by zompist at 1:59 PM on November 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
There could be a lot of individual cords, but they were usually short, so I don't expect they'd tangle up. As they're tied, they can't get out of order.
As the chaskis worked for the government, they probably only had to worry about one language-- Quechua, the language of the Incas, still the most widely spoken Native American language.
posted by zompist at 1:59 PM on November 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
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