Holland part of Axis of Evil?
June 13, 2002 11:22 AM Subscribe
Holland part of Axis of Evil? The Dutch parliament was shocked by a US legislative proposal giving an official green light to a US invasion of the Netherlands should it be deemed necessary to free US citizens from the International Criminal Court in The Hague. Pretty please, leave us alone, Jesse Helms.
i really wish that phrase would be banished. its like setting up the board for the history books to record the third coming world war.
posted by Satapher at 11:36 AM on June 13, 2002
posted by Satapher at 11:36 AM on June 13, 2002
The bill: as introduced in the house, and in the senate.
posted by badstone at 11:41 AM on June 13, 2002
posted by badstone at 11:41 AM on June 13, 2002
For those of you inclined to further research, the Senate bill is S 857, the House bill is HR 1794. Both were introduced over a year ago; both appear to be languishing in committee. Senate sponsor is Helms, House sponsor is the equally warm and cuddly Tom DeLay.
posted by gimonca at 11:42 AM on June 13, 2002
posted by gimonca at 11:42 AM on June 13, 2002
The court has no hold over US citizens, but I cannot imagine there would ever be an invasion over it. Why not take it as it comes, as we would any other hostage situation? There is no need for this to be decided now.
posted by thirteen at 11:43 AM on June 13, 2002
posted by thirteen at 11:43 AM on June 13, 2002
I'm with geoff. Can we invade Belgium, too? I'm specifically thinking we may need to liberate the strategic Stella Artois reserves in Leuven.
posted by UncleFes at 11:44 AM on June 13, 2002
posted by UncleFes at 11:44 AM on June 13, 2002
The Dutch parliament was shocked by a US legislative proposal giving an official green light to a US invasion of the Netherlands should it be deemed necessary to free US citizens from the International Criminal Court in The Hague.
Ah, now I understand. I actually don't have much of a problem with this. This seems like a 'last resort' sort of provision, and is probably being done as a protest to the idea of holding U.S. citizens guilty of crimes in an international court.
If the court were in Belgium, plans would be drawn up to invade Belgium.
The proposal — called the American Services Members' Protection Act — is designed to prevent the International Criminal Court gaining judicial authority over US soldiers.
I agree with the U.S. government on this one... I dont know what to say, since it's such a rare occurence. I call supreme emperorship over the Red Light District.
posted by insomnyuk at 11:52 AM on June 13, 2002
Ah, now I understand. I actually don't have much of a problem with this. This seems like a 'last resort' sort of provision, and is probably being done as a protest to the idea of holding U.S. citizens guilty of crimes in an international court.
If the court were in Belgium, plans would be drawn up to invade Belgium.
The proposal — called the American Services Members' Protection Act — is designed to prevent the International Criminal Court gaining judicial authority over US soldiers.
I agree with the U.S. government on this one... I dont know what to say, since it's such a rare occurence. I call supreme emperorship over the Red Light District.
posted by insomnyuk at 11:52 AM on June 13, 2002
badstone, those links will work for only another 15 minutes or so (hence the "temp" in the urls). gimonca's links are the right ones.
posted by MrMoonPie at 11:52 AM on June 13, 2002
posted by MrMoonPie at 11:52 AM on June 13, 2002
If american soldiers can't invade holland and go on leave in amsterdam, then the terrorists will have already won.
posted by jkaczor at 11:53 AM on June 13, 2002
posted by jkaczor at 11:53 AM on June 13, 2002
I think we should invade Belgium. I hear there are chocolates there that need liberating.
posted by iconomy at 11:58 AM on June 13, 2002
posted by iconomy at 11:58 AM on June 13, 2002
Longtime readers of the National Lampoon knew all about this, of course.
posted by gimonca at 11:59 AM on June 13, 2002
posted by gimonca at 11:59 AM on June 13, 2002
Ah, now I understand. I actually don't have much of a problem with this. This seems like a 'last resort' sort of provision, and is probably being done as a protest to the idea of holding U.S. citizens guilty of crimes in an international court.
If the court were in Belgium, plans would be drawn up to invade Belgium.
I suspect the more likely scenario would be an enemy nation, after having captured U.S. solidiers during battle, initiating proceedings against the U.S. in the ICC - at which point said captured solidiers could be considered as being held on behalf of the Court. The bill states that the U.S. is not prevented from trying to liberate their military personnel in that circumstance.
posted by ljromanoff at 12:16 PM on June 13, 2002
If the court were in Belgium, plans would be drawn up to invade Belgium.
I suspect the more likely scenario would be an enemy nation, after having captured U.S. solidiers during battle, initiating proceedings against the U.S. in the ICC - at which point said captured solidiers could be considered as being held on behalf of the Court. The bill states that the U.S. is not prevented from trying to liberate their military personnel in that circumstance.
posted by ljromanoff at 12:16 PM on June 13, 2002
Wait, we're Americans! If a few of our boys are imprisoned in The Hague, won't God Himself come down and liberate them from the evil clutches of international law?
Ugh.
posted by MonkeyMeat at 12:30 PM on June 13, 2002
Ugh.
posted by MonkeyMeat at 12:30 PM on June 13, 2002
Ya know, I'd just like to take this moment to apologize, on behalf of level-headed American citizens everywhere, to our foreign friends for the endlessly boorish behavior of the U.S. Government.
posted by mkultra at 12:37 PM on June 13, 2002
posted by mkultra at 12:37 PM on June 13, 2002
gimonca, you beat me to the link! As soon I saw the fpp, my first thought was "Stop Dutch Perfidy!". I may actually have the original issue somewhere.
To paraphrase Randy Newman, "A pound of gouda cheese for you, a case of Heineken for me."
posted by groundhog at 12:46 PM on June 13, 2002
To paraphrase Randy Newman, "A pound of gouda cheese for you, a case of Heineken for me."
posted by groundhog at 12:46 PM on June 13, 2002
for those of you just tuning in:
Slobodan Milosevich: citizen of the wrong country, war criminal.
Henry Kissinger: citizen of the right country, favorite dinner party guest.
posted by Ty Webb at 12:54 PM on June 13, 2002
Slobodan Milosevich: citizen of the wrong country, war criminal.
Henry Kissinger: citizen of the right country, favorite dinner party guest.
posted by Ty Webb at 12:54 PM on June 13, 2002
I think we should invade Belgium. I hear there are chocolates there that need liberating. -iconomy
And beer. You can't forget the beer. Oh! And women, you can't forget the women who need saving from those savage Belgian men. Do you suppose they have pizza that needs liberating too?
posted by ashbury at 1:06 PM on June 13, 2002
And beer. You can't forget the beer. Oh! And women, you can't forget the women who need saving from those savage Belgian men. Do you suppose they have pizza that needs liberating too?
posted by ashbury at 1:06 PM on June 13, 2002
Hey, so during WWII, "frankfurters" became "hot dogs" and sauerkraut became "liberty cabbage"... If we invade the Netherlands, maybe we should make these changes:
Dutch oven ---> liberty oven
double dutch ---> liberty skipping
"going dutch" ---> "dating liberty-style"
posted by MonkeyMeat at 1:19 PM on June 13, 2002
Dutch oven ---> liberty oven
double dutch ---> liberty skipping
"going dutch" ---> "dating liberty-style"
posted by MonkeyMeat at 1:19 PM on June 13, 2002
Yes, I read Distraction. It was good, but what is the relevance? I don't think i am remembering it very well. Oh that's right; war with Holland (talk about distraction) Wasn't there a fake war with Holland in a movie once also?
Also in need of liberating is Madurodam, the miniature town.
posted by donkeymon at 1:26 PM on June 13, 2002
Also in need of liberating is Madurodam, the miniature town.
posted by donkeymon at 1:26 PM on June 13, 2002
Can we get Musical Youth to re-record 'Pass the Dutchie'?
posted by darukaru at 1:27 PM on June 13, 2002
posted by darukaru at 1:27 PM on June 13, 2002
If we invade we must bring Sturbaard Bakkebaard back to the states. They rock.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 1:51 PM on June 13, 2002
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 1:51 PM on June 13, 2002
The only scenario where the court would come in action would not be a US war against another country as pointed out earlier. I think the threat is when US special forces try a secret operation in another country like, umm try to kill Saddam, and some of the soldiers are captured. In that eventuality, if an International Court has jurisprudence over the fate of these men, it would create a problem for the US, which would like to keep a hush on such a capture.
posted by adnanbwp at 2:02 PM on June 13, 2002
posted by adnanbwp at 2:02 PM on June 13, 2002
Dutch oven ---> liberty oven
double dutch ---> liberty skipping
"going dutch" ---> "dating liberty-style"
Afghans are now "victory blankets," aren't they?
posted by rushmc at 2:35 PM on June 13, 2002
double dutch ---> liberty skipping
"going dutch" ---> "dating liberty-style"
Afghans are now "victory blankets," aren't they?
posted by rushmc at 2:35 PM on June 13, 2002
I remember the big stink that the left made when Lori Berenson was held by the Peruvian government for aiding and abetting terrorists in the murder of innocent civilians. When it comes to our own servicemen though....well, just read the comments above.
I guess when it comes to fighting to defend the interests of the United States, the left has rationalized every which way to punk out. Just look at their sordid behavior in fleeing to Canada during the Vietnamese War. Craven cowards all.
posted by mikegre at 2:35 PM on June 13, 2002
I guess when it comes to fighting to defend the interests of the United States, the left has rationalized every which way to punk out. Just look at their sordid behavior in fleeing to Canada during the Vietnamese War. Craven cowards all.
posted by mikegre at 2:35 PM on June 13, 2002
every single thread for you is left vs. right, isn't it? it must be awfully tiring.
posted by jnthnjng at 2:40 PM on June 13, 2002
posted by jnthnjng at 2:40 PM on June 13, 2002
um, mikegre, Peru was not invaded in the example you provide....
posted by rushmc at 2:42 PM on June 13, 2002
posted by rushmc at 2:42 PM on June 13, 2002
Just look at their sordid behavior in fleeing to Canada during the Vietnamese War. Craven cowards all.
unlike all the brave conservatives who, like our current leader, had their rich and powerful parents get them into the national guard.
posted by boltman at 2:51 PM on June 13, 2002
unlike all the brave conservatives who, like our current leader, had their rich and powerful parents get them into the national guard.
posted by boltman at 2:51 PM on June 13, 2002
I remember the big stink that the left made when Lori Berenson was held by the Peruvian government for aiding and abetting terrorists in the murder of innocent civilians.
Actually, the stink was made because Berenson was tried in front of hooded judges in a military tribunal, was not even permitted to see or examine the evidence against her, or accorded any due process whatever, all of which would be accorded to defendants in the International Criminal Court.
Now that Berenson has been tried in a civilian court, I and many others have become convinced that she is indeed a criminal, and belongs in prison. But I would agitate for due process for anyone, Milosevich, Pol Pot, Kissinger, bin Laden, Ollie North.
and:
I guess when it comes to fighting to defend the interests of the United States, the left has rationalized every which way to punk out. Just look at their sordid behavior in fleeing to Canada during the Vietnamese War. Craven cowards all.
is a troll.
posted by Ty Webb at 2:55 PM on June 13, 2002
Actually, the stink was made because Berenson was tried in front of hooded judges in a military tribunal, was not even permitted to see or examine the evidence against her, or accorded any due process whatever, all of which would be accorded to defendants in the International Criminal Court.
Now that Berenson has been tried in a civilian court, I and many others have become convinced that she is indeed a criminal, and belongs in prison. But I would agitate for due process for anyone, Milosevich, Pol Pot, Kissinger, bin Laden, Ollie North.
and:
I guess when it comes to fighting to defend the interests of the United States, the left has rationalized every which way to punk out. Just look at their sordid behavior in fleeing to Canada during the Vietnamese War. Craven cowards all.
is a troll.
posted by Ty Webb at 2:55 PM on June 13, 2002
The Canada crack is more than a bit uncalled for, and it seems to have taken this thread into the Pancake Event Horizon, so…
y2karl, don't make me get out the picture of Captain Morgan bursting from the guy's chest like in Alien.
posted by darukaru at 3:55 PM on June 13, 2002
y2karl, don't make me get out the picture of Captain Morgan bursting from the guy's chest like in Alien.
posted by darukaru at 3:55 PM on June 13, 2002
Afghans are now "victory blankets," aren't they?
And Afghan Wolfhounds are now "Liberty Ugly-As-Shit-Hounds" right?
No offense to any owners of Afghan Wolfhounds. They're really quite nice dogs.
Oh, yeah, and what Uncle Fes said. Stella Artois Rules!
posted by Ufez Jones at 4:02 PM on June 13, 2002
And Afghan Wolfhounds are now "Liberty Ugly-As-Shit-Hounds" right?
No offense to any owners of Afghan Wolfhounds. They're really quite nice dogs.
Oh, yeah, and what Uncle Fes said. Stella Artois Rules!
posted by Ufez Jones at 4:02 PM on June 13, 2002
Satapher, would that be the third world war which is already afoot? Or do you have some other war in mind?
And magullo: If you're hosting a judicial system to which we have not acceded, and that judicial system takes custody of persons under a criminal statute with which we do not agree, just who the fuck is not leaving whom alone? If Europe can make a stink about the death penalty to the point that they will not assist us by providing evidence necessary to the prosecution of a war criminal, why shouldn't we have our own principles we're prepared to stick to?
It's as if Europe says You can't prosecute our person your way -- but we can sure prosecute your person our way.
That's a special kind of arrogance, and you don't have to be Jesse Helms to get fed up with it. At least over here we still remember what government by consent of the governed means.
posted by dhartung at 4:41 PM on June 13, 2002
And magullo: If you're hosting a judicial system to which we have not acceded, and that judicial system takes custody of persons under a criminal statute with which we do not agree, just who the fuck is not leaving whom alone? If Europe can make a stink about the death penalty to the point that they will not assist us by providing evidence necessary to the prosecution of a war criminal, why shouldn't we have our own principles we're prepared to stick to?
It's as if Europe says You can't prosecute our person your way -- but we can sure prosecute your person our way.
That's a special kind of arrogance, and you don't have to be Jesse Helms to get fed up with it. At least over here we still remember what government by consent of the governed means.
posted by dhartung at 4:41 PM on June 13, 2002
Wait a minute...the President doesn't need Congress's approval to send commandos into the Hague, and Congress can't force him to do it, so, as far as I can tell, all these bills do is remove the element of surprise.
posted by electro at 4:43 PM on June 13, 2002
posted by electro at 4:43 PM on June 13, 2002
Earth to dhartung: no European country has proposed invading the United States to free citizens threatened with the death penalty. Your comparison is stupid.
posted by Wood at 5:24 PM on June 13, 2002
posted by Wood at 5:24 PM on June 13, 2002
darukaru wrote: "The Canada crack is more than a bit uncalled for..."
When the draft really kicked in and we realized we could actually get called up and get killed over there, we panicked. We all tried to avoid the draft. Some of us stayed in school, some got married and had kids, some of us ran off to Canada.
I think it's time we all come clean and admit our reprehensible behavior. I think it's time we stop rationalizing our cowardice by blaming our country and take responsibilty for our actions and accept the blame ourselves. We're a generation that has been living with this guilt for 30 years. When we admit and accept our guilt, we will become stronger. And we will need all the strength we can muster in the coming battles ahead.
posted by mikegre at 6:14 PM on June 13, 2002
When the draft really kicked in and we realized we could actually get called up and get killed over there, we panicked. We all tried to avoid the draft. Some of us stayed in school, some got married and had kids, some of us ran off to Canada.
I think it's time we all come clean and admit our reprehensible behavior. I think it's time we stop rationalizing our cowardice by blaming our country and take responsibilty for our actions and accept the blame ourselves. We're a generation that has been living with this guilt for 30 years. When we admit and accept our guilt, we will become stronger. And we will need all the strength we can muster in the coming battles ahead.
posted by mikegre at 6:14 PM on June 13, 2002
When the draft really kicked in and we realized we could actually get called up and get killed over there, we panicked. We all tried to avoid the draft.
Who's this "we?" You got a mouse in your pocket or something?
posted by rushmc at 6:53 PM on June 13, 2002
Who's this "we?" You got a mouse in your pocket or something?
posted by rushmc at 6:53 PM on June 13, 2002
Afghans are now "victory blankets," aren't they?
oh no rush! afghans are not the enemy, we send them dollars from our kids! it's the terrorists that are the enemy! you need to catch up on the newspeak ;) i mean jose padilla isn't an afghan and he's the enemy, your scheme ties down who the enemy is, american freedom can't be tied down! :P
posted by rhyax at 7:21 PM on June 13, 2002
oh no rush! afghans are not the enemy, we send them dollars from our kids! it's the terrorists that are the enemy! you need to catch up on the newspeak ;) i mean jose padilla isn't an afghan and he's the enemy, your scheme ties down who the enemy is, american freedom can't be tied down! :P
posted by rhyax at 7:21 PM on June 13, 2002
You got a mouse in your pocket or something?
I thought I was the only one.
Here's my question, in regard to Dhartung's comment-- do we have specific agreements with other countries about their laws? This is totally off-topic, but I'm wondering if there was a Lori Berenson type situation except with a US Colonel or something (Say Ollie North was arrested in Nicaragua or something, tried, convicted and put in jail). Could we then go in and get him out?
posted by chaz at 8:36 PM on June 13, 2002
I thought I was the only one.
Here's my question, in regard to Dhartung's comment-- do we have specific agreements with other countries about their laws? This is totally off-topic, but I'm wondering if there was a Lori Berenson type situation except with a US Colonel or something (Say Ollie North was arrested in Nicaragua or something, tried, convicted and put in jail). Could we then go in and get him out?
posted by chaz at 8:36 PM on June 13, 2002
Why would we want to?
Seriously, people do realize that U.S. citizens are ALREADY subject to the laws of the countries they visit, right? The only difference here is that we are talking about an international court, specifically formed by the governments of the world to examine and try certain types of offenses that are poorly dealt with in local jurisdictions. I'd much rather face a world court than one run by Saddam Hussein or his ilk.
It boggles my mind that some Americans want to reserve the right to try the likes of Slobodan Milosevic for their crimes but cry hands off when it's a U.S. citizen involved. Such delusions of inherent superiority over all the other people of the world!
posted by rushmc at 10:56 AM on June 14, 2002
Seriously, people do realize that U.S. citizens are ALREADY subject to the laws of the countries they visit, right? The only difference here is that we are talking about an international court, specifically formed by the governments of the world to examine and try certain types of offenses that are poorly dealt with in local jurisdictions. I'd much rather face a world court than one run by Saddam Hussein or his ilk.
It boggles my mind that some Americans want to reserve the right to try the likes of Slobodan Milosevic for their crimes but cry hands off when it's a U.S. citizen involved. Such delusions of inherent superiority over all the other people of the world!
posted by rushmc at 10:56 AM on June 14, 2002
Hmm. I don't think I'm really amoral, but Slobodan is being tried because he lost. I understand some people want to change that, but what are the historical examples of victors being called to account?
posted by Wood at 1:48 PM on June 14, 2002
posted by Wood at 1:48 PM on June 14, 2002
How can victors ever be called to account without some sort of supra-national court to do the calling? The victor's OWN nation certainly isn't going to do it (maybe much later, when he's fallen out of favor and the government has changed).
posted by rushmc at 8:53 PM on June 14, 2002
posted by rushmc at 8:53 PM on June 14, 2002
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posted by geoff. at 11:34 AM on June 13, 2002