“God's in his heaven, all's right with the world.”
November 29, 2018 7:06 PM   Subscribe

Netflix’s anime announcement frenzy [Ars Technica] “We only have a teaser trailer and a list of writers, directors, producers, and supervisors, but it's enough to get a certain jazzy anime theme song rocking in our heads. That's right: the late-'90s Japanese cartoon Cowboy Bebop is coming back. As, um, a live-action series? Netflix, in an apparent attempt to assuage anxious "uh live action?" responses, immediately informed fans that original animated series Director Shinichiro Watanabe will participate as a "consultant." [...] It's somewhat easier to get excited about Netflix's other huge Tuesday anime announcement, since it's a known quantity: Neon Genesis Evangelion is coming to the service in spring 2019. By that, we mean the TV series' original mid-'90s run of 26 episodes.” [YouTube][Neon Genesis Evangelion Trailer] [Twitter][Cowboy Bepop Teaser Trailer]

• The right way to watch Neon Genesis Evangelion [Polygon]
“This is the story that unfolds over the course of the original anime. Yet Evangelion’s more than just the 26-episode series that wrapped in 1996 (and has been held in high esteem in the years since). There’s also two direct feature-film follow-ups, and an entire set of movies that “retell” the TV show’s story. If you’re an anime fan who still hasn’t seen the show but means to, you may be tempted by film-length recaps. They’re much more readily available than the original series is (until it’s streaming, that is), and they theoretically condense 15-ish hours of action and drama and existential dread into a shorter package with sleeker, modernized animation. To you, I say: Don’t do this. Don’t watch the Rebuild of Evangelion film series before watching the anime as it was. Hold out for Netflix. There is a correct way to enjoy the anime, and it requires patience.”
• What Is Cowboy Bebop and Why Is Netflix Making a New One? [GQ]
“Cowboy Bebop is, roughly speaking, a series about bounty hunters in space taking on odd jobs to get by. It's got a whole backstory that's sparingly filled in—not a whole lot, just enough to know that the show's universe is big enough to fill the imagination, and that its characters are all (despite their dispassionate, cool, or weird exteriors) Working Through Some Stuff. Across 26 episodes and one movie, Cowboy Bebop told mostly episodic stories that touched on surprisingly sobering existential themes, like Firefly but with more Proust. It also has what is, hands-down, maybe the best opening titles of any series ever. You can binge the whole series in a day and you'll never want to skip it once. Hell, Netflix's biggest challenge in adapting Bebop is just living up to this thing.” [YouTube][Cowboy Bepop Opening Sequence]
posted by Fizz (55 comments total) 12 users marked this as a favorite
 
The rumours that Bindlestuff Crumblebutt is attached as Spike make me very very very worried.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:11 PM on November 29, 2018 [14 favorites]


There was already a Cowboy Bebop live-action show. It was called Firefly.

Crap, I just noticed Firefly was already mentioned, but I still stand by my comment.
posted by littlesq at 7:13 PM on November 29, 2018 [6 favorites]


I named one of my cats Spike Spiegel for gods sake. The soundtrack CDs have grooves worn in. If there is any mercy left in this timeline, any at all—
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:13 PM on November 29, 2018 [7 favorites]


I learned about the Netflix Carmen Sandiego reboot and the Netflix Cowboy Bebop thing in the space of an hour last Tuesday and ever since I cannot stop thinking about how good a Carmen Sandiego anime would be
posted by theodolite at 7:16 PM on November 29, 2018 [11 favorites]


I've actually been saying for a while that Cumberbatch would be a good fit, physically, for Spike. Not sure about the voice or the Kung Fu ability though.
posted by dbx at 7:17 PM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]


I will never watch some remake thing (in English no less) of Cowboy Bebop, not for a second...but I'm willing to forgive their making such an abomination as thanks for making Eva, in its entirety, finally available to the west again, possibly in HD!
posted by trackofalljades at 7:25 PM on November 29, 2018 [2 favorites]


The right way to watch Evangelion is to watch the original anime two episodes at a time, a month apart, in your parents’ basement, followed several months later by watching End of Evangelion in the dorm room of a friend who’s already seen it.

Also you cannot skip the intro or end credit song. Not even once.
posted by graymouser at 7:32 PM on November 29, 2018 [23 favorites]


Live-action Urotsukidoji.

Go big or go home.
posted by delfin at 7:35 PM on November 29, 2018 [10 favorites]


Also you cannot skip the intro or end credit song. Not even once.

Somehow, I'm not quite sure which of my friends to blame for this, but somehow, I ended up with pretty much every Eva soundtrack every released in mp3 form circa 2003-6. Not quite sure when.

YOU CANNOT IMAGINE HOW MANY TIMES THESE PEOPLE COVERED "FLY ME TO THE MOON."
posted by Caduceus at 7:45 PM on November 29, 2018 [13 favorites]


I’m beyond excited for NGE to be released on Netflix. I don’t understand the point of the Rebuild series, as they are so condensed as to make the series incomprehensible (in my opinion, anyway.) The newer animation is incredible though, and I wish they’d just do a shot for shot update of the original series plus EoE.

I don’t understand the live action Cowboy Bebop.
posted by gucci mane at 7:50 PM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]


FLY ME TO THE MOON

they're all diffrerent even the ones with the same name
posted by Caduceus at 7:52 PM on November 29, 2018 [5 favorites]


the one I marked doesn't even start until that time stamp
posted by Caduceus at 7:54 PM on November 29, 2018 [3 favorites]


No, just no. Please, Netflix.

I loved having Willam Defoe as Ryuk in Death Note. Seriously, bravo. The height of a crappy remake.

Please, seriously don't try to remake Cowboy Bebop. It was good enough as it was.

I would change the representation of Faye and Ed, but precious little else.
posted by FleetMind at 7:57 PM on November 29, 2018


Anyway I love Eva and I thought I found my DVDs recently and brought them to my domicile but now I can't find them again, which is obnoxious since I guess they're still worth at least as much as I paid for them, which was a stupid amount over the course of many months.
posted by Caduceus at 7:59 PM on November 29, 2018


I first watched Evangelion in 2015, which is the year in which the show is set. It immediately riveted me, not with the religious-draped kaiju battles, but with the instantly relatable characters. Watching the project leader Gendo interact with his son Shinji in the early episodes was uncannily like my own fraught relationship with my father when I was Shinji's age. As the other pilot characters are introduced in further episodes and we learn more and more about them, their personalities, and the personalities and psychological histories of the other characters, it was as if I had finally discovered something relatable in the world to a degree I have never before experienced from a work of fiction.

Shinji's avoidance, running away from everything. Fear of intimate connection with others. The "Hedgehog's Dilemma." Just wanting to be loved but scared to death of opening up because of the pain of the past, of abandonment and rejection by the father.

Rei's alienation. Being unfamiliar with our own emotions and thoughts, wondering why we felt a certain way, or didn't feel something that was expected of us. Wanting to be loved but not understanding or trusting the biochemicals that made us feel these ways.

Asuka's aggressive posturing. Being scared of failing to be the best, being merely adequate. Amplifying emotions to histrionic absurdity to get a reaction, to make an impression other than weakness. Wanting to be loved but terrified of putting down that club, of taking off that armor.

All these things and the chaos and contradictions of switching between them unpredictably. Cycles of empty bravado collapsing into hopeless failure resulting in cold isolation; every permutation of these negative traits reinforcing and multiplying each other.

As I began to explore the fandom around this show and read the voluminous analyses around the web, one word kept coming up to explain why the pilots acted as they do: depression. I came to understand what depression actually is and how I had been under its influence for so much of my life. I had never before realized it. This is what I was. Not until watching this anime from the 90s did I ever connect 2 and 2 and understand why I felt so hopeless so much of the time, why I drank so much, why I never tried to accomplish anything. Today, I'm not great, I'm not "cured", but I'm better than I have been for a long time and I might never have become aware of a path out of the darkness without this show.

I don't know if Neon Genesis Evangelion saved my life, but it definitely changed my life. What more could one hope for from a fictional story?
posted by glonous keming at 8:06 PM on November 29, 2018 [29 favorites]


Anyway I love Eva and I thought I found my DVDs recently and brought them to my domicile but now I can't find them again, which is obnoxious since I guess they're still worth at least as much as I paid for them, which was a stupid amount over the course of many months.

wow, apparently even my circa ~2005 Eva DVD boxset is worth a couple hundred bucks, thanks for the heads up. it didn't even contain End of Evangelion, which i didn't actually see for like 7 or 8 years after initially watching the series. the idea that they're all just gonna be on netflix now is crazy, and awesome. hopefully they get the rebuild movies up too at some point, i loved the first two though i still haven't seen 3.0 due to the insane delay on the american release.
posted by JimBennett at 8:08 PM on November 29, 2018 [2 favorites]


don't try to remake Cowboy Bebop. It was good enough as it was.

I'm inclined to agree but hopeful. I know the show so well it will be a wacky experiment. And the BSG re-boot was awesome. On the other hand, do we need a feature film re-telling of Marwencol? Was it not also just right the first time?

Stupid art and film and semiotics get me all confuso.
posted by vrakatar at 8:29 PM on November 29, 2018 [2 favorites]


Yes. Just yes. I'm finally at a point in my life where I think I can appreciate Eva for what it is. I couldn't stand it the first go-'round, just thought it was all mechs, no heart. I just didn't get it, and I regretted that ultimately, because it simply couldn't be found easily to try rewatching it when I wanted to do so. So yes, please. Very much looking forward to this. And of course, as a longtime fan of Cowboy Bebop and its soundtrack and the whole deal, I hope the remake is treated with the sensitivity it deserves, not like uh Ghost in the Shell or anything. Please please please.
posted by limeonaire at 8:43 PM on November 29, 2018 [2 favorites]


I guess my question with all these live-action anime remakes is: who exactly is the intended audience? Are anime fans clamoring for these? Or is the idea that people who are put off by anime will fall in love with these stories once the ridiculous giant swords, robots, and hair are filmed in live action?
posted by Pyry at 8:51 PM on November 29, 2018 [2 favorites]


Spike: Michael B Jordan
Jet: Gina Carano
Ein: A pembroke with a tail
Faye and Edd: Dunno
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:57 PM on November 29, 2018


Ruth Negga for Faye, surely.
posted by IAmUnaware at 9:01 PM on November 29, 2018 [7 favorites]


I'll say one good thing about Netflix's announcement: it made me eager to give Cowboy Bebop another chance. Tried it 15 years on account of the great soundtrack, it didn't click back then (I also had never seen an anime show before), but I feel it's time to give it second shot!
posted by bigendian at 9:13 PM on November 29, 2018


If they make Spike white, let alone fucking Benedict Cumberbatch, whose name I am too fucking tired to misspell — Jesus take the wheel. Please let this just be a Tumblr rumor.

I’ve also seen on Twitter that the announced writers room for Bebop is all white and male. Any truth to that?
posted by joyceanmachine at 9:16 PM on November 29, 2018


I don’t understand the point of the Rebuild series, as they are so condensed as to make the series incomprehensible (in my opinion, anyway.)

This essay kind of made the Rebuild movies click for me. It makes a case for interpreting them not as an updated or condensed version of the original series, but as a very deliberate response to the way the original was received by anime fans.
3.33 only exists as a coherent emotional statement in the context of the original series. It moves from shot to shot, touchstone to touchstone, playing off the viewer’s familiarity with images and moments mythologized by the series’ legacy. And it doesn’t just reference these things – it warps them. As I said, 3.33 breaks the dial on fanservice. Shinji now actively seeks the Eva, but this confidence leads to no good end. Rei, always the exemplar of the mute, accepting, “safe” love interest, is now truly a doll – a non-person, the dead end of human engagement represented by the fantasy she once exemplified. It’s a cautionary tale – the most direct statement yet of Anno’s dissatisfaction with the self-limiting fantasies of anime, told through a broken movie that barely even works as a movie at all, reliant on the viewer’s familiarity with a series that enjoying the previous film almost required you to dislike.
posted by teraflop at 9:24 PM on November 29, 2018 [3 favorites]


You shouldn't retake something great or even good. You should remake something bad that could be good or great.

There is nothing to add to cowboy bebop, and it's target audience already fucking knows what it is.

This is like those rumors of Keanu remaking Akira, but he's shown himself to be very capable of making action movies.

Cumberbatch can't even fucking pronounce "penguins".

Under his belt he's got:*
- a shitty Sherlock Holmes
- a shitty Khan
- a shitty Dr Strange

Do people think he'll be any good as Spike?

*(ymmv)
posted by lkc at 10:57 PM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]


I can't really be excited about Eva on Netflix, considering it's 20 years old and I've already seen it plenty. Someone on another forum suggested Netflix should use its funds to pick up additional seasons of shows, and while the specter of FLCL 2+3 haunts us all I'm willing to risk it.

Things I would like to see more of:

- Moriboto. The first season adapted the first novel in a 12 book series.
- Spice and Wolf
- Darker than Black
- Trigun. We got a movie a few years back, moar please
- Haruhi
- Claymore
- Little Witch Academia. Fuck, they funded the first 26 episodes, why stop?
- Knights of Sidonia. Another Netflix original with at least one, maybe two more seasons of source material remaining.
- more Kino no Tabi. I know this is a greedy ask because we just got some last year. But there's really nothing else like it -- it's like someone saw the title 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance' and decided to make a TV show based on just the name.

But I guess thinking about it, Netflix exclusive seasons would leave them vulnerable to losing rights to older content. Alas.
posted by pwnguin at 11:36 PM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]


Wait, I'm sorry, we're focusing on 20-year-old anime and not the stop-motion anime Rilakkuma and Kaoru?

Also, we already have the perfect Cowboy Bebop cast.
posted by Katemonkey at 1:23 AM on November 30, 2018 [5 favorites]


Cowboy Bebop (and Akira) tricked me into thinking I liked anime. Gorgeous visuals, stylish characters, and world-class soundtracks. Really worth anyone's time!

NGE cured me of this almost immediately. I watched the whole series and it was torture. The weird thing was at the end it seemed to know it had been crap and made a dream sequence ending berating itself for being crap. I will never understand the appeal.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 1:44 AM on November 30, 2018 [3 favorites]


> NGE cured me of this almost immediately. I watched the whole series and it was torture. The weird thing was at the end it seemed to know it had been crap and made a dream sequence ending berating itself for being crap. I will never understand the appeal.

When it appeals, it really appeals. The first half of the show is a lot of scene-setting and has typical anime tropes thrown in here and there but as the series progresses, it becomes much more. It helps if you can identify a little with Shinji, his depression and inability to know how to act, or with Asuka and her fury to be best, or Misato's drive to prove herself. This isn't a happy show. This isn't an action show. It's a treatise on depression and the failure of people to care for others, all dressed up in anime clothing.

You've also encountered the problem of thinking that the last two episodes of the tv show are the last two episodes of the show. Episodes 25 and 26 were tossed off in quick time as budgets ran down and - I would agree with you - are close to torture. They throw away all the depth of the show for a piss-poor finish. Congratulations!

The "real" final ending of the television show is the film 'End of Evangelion' after the Director's Cut of episodes 20 or so onwards. This, if you have managed through the show, is devastating, and in a very good way. Asuka's final fight ("I'll kill you... I'll kill you..."), Komm Susser Tod, the apocaplyptic landscapes...

I watch the whole thing once every year or two (well, I skip some of the early episodes) and come out full of deep and fulfilling melancholy. That's a recommendation, by the way. If you do decide to watch again, google for the watch order (episodes 1-20 of original, director's cut of 21-24, then End of, then - if you must - the original 25 and 26, then the films which end up radically different).
posted by humuhumu at 2:05 AM on November 30, 2018 [13 favorites]


To possibly take some sting out of the Cowboy Bebop thing, apparently Watanabe’s name has been attached to a Blade Runner anime series.
posted by juv3nal at 4:48 AM on November 30, 2018 [2 favorites]


Evangmehlion. Wake me when you got VOTOMS.
posted by rodlymight at 4:55 AM on November 30, 2018


There are a couple anime from my teenage-anime years (Kenshin and Lain) that I regularly revisit, but NGE isn't one of them. At the same time, as a (diagnosed) depressed teenager, I did really connect with it and it did bring me a measure of peace. I'd always sort of assumed that it wouldn't hold up, but somehow I'm happy to hear that it can still have a certain healing effect for those who need it.

I also loved episodes 25-26 when I first saw them (and they really brought the whole depression message home), and when I later discovered the movies I thought they were total garbage. I think one of the things that drove me away from the series was that the fandom seemed to have such an opposite take. Am I alone in this still or has the consensus shifted at least somewhat?
posted by Alex404 at 5:15 AM on November 30, 2018


I'm just mystified by the badness of that Cowboy Bebop teaser. Just to start with, where's the music? You're adapting a show legendary for its soundtrack, its intro theme alone, and your teaser is dead silent? Who in their right mind ever misses a single opportunity to use "Tank!"?
posted by qntm at 5:20 AM on November 30, 2018 [4 favorites]


I like the series ending of Evangelion -- I think they're a messy, weird, and imperfect finish for a show that was often messy, weird and imperfect. They're not what I expected but they're what I wanted.

I hated End of Evangelion the first time I saw it because it just felt so overly cruel but I've liked it more on subsequent viewings because the cruelty of it is the point. It's such a "fuck you" to the fans who wanted an action-oriented ending and I respect that.

(And I really don't think the two endings are incompatible, personally. I think there's a good case to be made that they're basically the same events from different perspectives -- and I think that's intentional.)

I think the "redo" movies do some interesting things but I need to sit and re/watch them (I own the first three & I still have hopes the last will happen) but I may want to rewatch the series first. (I have the DVDs of it but I don't know what box they're in.)
posted by darksong at 5:23 AM on November 30, 2018 [1 favorite]


I have the original Cowboy Bebop box sets. The back of each box has "liner notes" for the disc. Each disc is designed to look like a 45 RPM record. Top that, Netflix!
posted by SPrintF at 5:59 AM on November 30, 2018 [2 favorites]


Best anime ? Mushishi.

Also best anime ? Revolutionary Girl Utena.
posted by Pendragon at 6:10 AM on November 30, 2018 [2 favorites]


I reserve the right to judge American live-action Cowboy Bebop on who gets the roles of the grumpy old men. I'm holding out on some combination of Iggy Pop, Tom Waits, Patti Smith, and Neil Young, Jim Jarmusch-style.

That and Cowboy Bebop needs a brilliant music director or it's not Cowboy Bebop.

One quirk of Bebop is that the bounty hunters rarely seem to catch anyone, and the whole bounty hunter system falls apart in the later episodes. I think a Becky Chambers adaptation would have the same sort of feel of guys just trying to get by while decidedly not the kings of the universe. Yes, Bebop has a couple of big character arcs going on, but the characters are not in any great hurry to resolve them.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 6:35 AM on November 30, 2018 [2 favorites]


Also, we already have the perfect Cowboy Bebop cast.

Damn it, I was going to make the "Cowboy Bebop live action but actually it's just Brooklyn 99" joke. (My version would have involved less Photoshop but also I would have cast Chelsea Peretti as Ed.)

Andy Samberg could actually make a pretty good Spike Spiegel, though. Like, for real, I actually think he could pull it off.

As for the general idea of casting a white guy to play Spike, I dunno, this is genuinely a different situation than GitS. Having a white guy play a dude from space named "Spike Spiegel" is totally different than having Scarlett Johansson play a Japanese woman from Japan named "Motoko Kusagani". Cumberwumble is totally wrong for the role nonetheless, but not because of his race.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:09 AM on November 30, 2018 [2 favorites]


Although on the other hand, you can definitely put me in the "I don't see a good reason for a live action version of this to even exist" camp.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:11 AM on November 30, 2018 [6 favorites]


It's such a "fuck you" to the fans who wanted an action-oriented ending and I respect that.

That's the weird thing about Evangelion fandom, the people who are the shows biggest fans seem to use the show's "fuck you" attitude towards its fans as a major component of their claims for its greatness, which is something that becomes harder to parse the more you dig into it. Anno is really sticking it to those fans, the true fans say, which is why it's so good, because the it gives fandom what it deserves.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:11 AM on November 30, 2018 [1 favorite]


Because "fandom" isn't a monolith, as the comment you quote notes. It's a "fuck you" to those fans who though Eva was just a big robot show and wanted big robot fights.

You've also encountered the problem of thinking that the last two episodes of the tv show are the last two episodes of the show. Episodes 25 and 26 were tossed off in quick time as budgets ran down and - I would agree with you - are close to torture. They throw away all the depth of the show for a piss-poor finish. Congratulations!
humuhumu

You couldn't be more wrong. The TV ending was the perfect ending for what the show was trying to do. The budget and time constraints they were working under only made them focus and make the point more strongly. End of Evangelion was a response to people whining about not being spoonfed by them.

Or, to quote Anno at a roundtable disccussion at Anime Expo '96 convention:
I have no problem with them. If there's a problem, it's all with you guys. Too bad.
Also, the Cowboy Bebop live action remake is a terrible idea, and if you think there's even a possibility of it being good you are wrong.
posted by Sangermaine at 9:04 AM on November 30, 2018 [6 favorites]


Seem like the hardest part of Bebop is trying to find an Ed and Ein. You need a little girl/boy that can pull off the brilliant/hyper just right and a really smart corgi. Maybe they can CGI or puppet the data dog.

It's nice to know that that Evangelion box set is actually worth something. I might have to add (and Bebop) to my winter holidays binge rewatch-for-the-Nth-time list.
posted by zengargoyle at 9:40 AM on November 30, 2018


I like the series ending of Evangelion -- I think they're a messy, weird, and imperfect finish for a show that was often messy, weird and imperfect. They're not what I expected but they're what I wanted.

Yeah, I also like them. And I know that a lot of the real story is that they were running out of money and time, but I love the bravery of ending that series that way. It is at one level about giant robots punching things, and at that same level is a machine for selling toys and models of those robots. And here is the ending, the point where you have the biggest robots dealing out the biggest punches, where you have the special final-form version of the Evas to sell as toys and models, where you have the Final Enemy!

And... nope. Kids nattering at each other at school.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:00 AM on November 30, 2018 [1 favorite]


Because "fandom" isn't a monolith, as the comment you quote notes. It's a "fuck you" to those fans who though Eva was just a big robot show and wanted big robot fights.

Okay, but that doesn't really untangle things all that well. Anno makes a "big robot show" and then get pissy believing fans are enjoying the big robots fighting too much and allegedly blows up his own show to make a point to those fans that there was more going on, but they won't get that now they'll get this new ending designed to alienate them. That ending then becomes one of the main, if not the main, things that fans claim makes the show so great, that it was designed to piss off fans. Not them though, they like it for showing those shallow fans how wrong they are.

The point then becomes tied to the response of those "others" as much as or even instead of one's own and Anno's alleged upset at the "wrong" fans doesn't read that sensibly since the show couldn't deliver a full blown metaphysical ending tied to all the quasi-religious whatnot that would have been remotely as memorable absent calling the desires of anime fans into question.

That ending either was always in some state of play to be used, or the very nature of fandom that Anno came to dislike is what made the show good due to his criticism of their failings. And that is then used to justify the merit of the show. There is a circularity to all this that just doesn't satisfy as I see it. That doesn't mean the show isn't "good", however one might measure that, but that there is something a little too easy and self-congratulatory about the claims.

Anno making a giant robot show to go after giant robot show fans for liking giant robots fighting is kinda weak, not much of a target to aim at and was manipulative in providing those fans what they wanted then claiming to find insult in that very thing just so the rug can be pulled out in the end. That the intensity of the fandom only increased after doing that led to more giant robot shows, some that heavily aped Evangelion, suggests the show didn't quite deliver the message intended or at least to the ends intended.

That leads to remixes or new additions to the show, keeping Anno in the giant robot business. The fandom only grows from all of this, but does so while holding that notion of it being about "wrong fans" rather than fans more generally which has a feel of gloating about it, which runs counter to the ending of the show. It just leaves a sense of contradiction about the show somewhere that's hard to ignore. But I can't deny that isn't itself interesting, which is more than most shows have going for them.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:15 PM on November 30, 2018


> Andy Samberg could actually make a pretty good Spike Spiegel

oh for the love of god please no.
posted by lkc at 1:39 PM on November 30, 2018 [2 favorites]


Anno makes a "big robot show"

This is your fundamental error: no, he didn't.

Eva is not a "big robot show", it's a show with big robots. The show is about the people and circumstances surrounding the big robots that mecha shows usually have. It was created as a reaction to, and deconstruction of, tropes of earlier mech shows like Mazinger Z or Getter Robo or to a lesser extent, Gundamn and Macross: the mysterious genius father who creates a machine for his kid to pilot, child soldiers fighting wars, etc. It was exploring how fucked up these things would actually be, and what kind of effects they'd have on the people involved.

It's like watching a movie about the suffering of soldiers in war and complaining that the soldiers sit around talking too much and there's not enough battles and ass-kicking. Or reading Watchmen and complaining that there's not enough superheroics and big comic book fights.

Anno making a giant robot show to go after giant robot show fans for liking giant robots fighting is kinda weak, not much of a target to aim at and was manipulative in providing those fans what they wanted then claiming to find insult in that very thing just so the rug can be pulled out in the end.

It wasn't. The entire show was an examination of mecha trope from the first episode, it just got more explicit later on. Surely you're not objecting to the very concept of genre or tropes being examined in a work unless the show very explicitly labels what it's doing upfront? Playing it straight while you work towards examination and criticism is a well-worn approach.

That the intensity of the fandom only increased after doing that led to more giant robot shows, some that heavily aped Evangelion, suggests the show didn't quite deliver the message intended or at least to the ends intended.

People not getting what a deconstruction or critical examination was going for is not exactly unheard of or unique to anime. There's a reason Truffaut (allegedly) said “There's no such thing as an anti-war film".
posted by Sangermaine at 1:50 PM on November 30, 2018 [10 favorites]


If you want another example of a show that plays with the tropes of the genre it appears to be on the surface, check out Puella Magi Madoka Magica (the original series, at least) if you haven't. It does for the magical girl genre what Eva did for mecha.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:57 PM on November 30, 2018 [6 favorites]


i'm not sure if other people will be bummed out about this (i'm guessing not) but the american v/o of Rei claims netflix is redubbing the series.
posted by JimBennett at 6:57 PM on November 30, 2018


Not just using the subbed version instead is a crime on par with conspiring to initiate Third Impact.

(Yeah, I'm gonna be that guy. But we're discussing 90s anime, so somebody had to be.)
posted by tobascodagama at 7:45 PM on November 30, 2018


But seriously, though, if they're gonna go with a dub, not using the original is some BS.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:53 PM on November 30, 2018


Oh wow. I... that is unfortunate.

Netflix is like, "Oh you thought we were just fucking up Bebop and the NGE thing was gonna be cool?" Can they just not fuck up everything? I mean damn. It doesn't really make a shit to me I guess because I already have the Japanese Blu-Ray remuxed with the best subs. The main reason I was excited about this was for my younger anime friends who haven't seen it because it hasn't been available on streaming. Now I am concerned they'll see a bunch of dumbed-down relocalized nonsense.

For an example of what I fear, compare and contrast something like Darker Than Black subtitles vs the official English dub. It's like two different shows sharing a common video stream.
posted by glonous keming at 9:08 PM on November 30, 2018


they'll have an option to watch it subbed or dubbed of course, subbed will probably even be the default, as it is for most anime on netflix. i was just expressing displeasure that they'll be replacing the dub i grew up on with a new one.
posted by JimBennett at 9:27 PM on November 30, 2018


People not getting what a deconstruction or critical examination was going for is not exactly unheard of or unique to anime. There's a reason Truffaut (allegedly) said “There's no such thing as an anti-war film".

Hmm, we don't seem to quite be on the same page here. I mean, yes, that quote by Truffaut partly points to the issue I'm referring to. The meaningfulness of genre deconstruction is of importance primarily only to those invested in the genre in question. Genre shows and films exist at a double remove from reality, where the rules or boundaries of the genre are as defining as any attempt to capture something of real life. Anno's take on the mecha genre is meaningful primarily to fans of that genre, as well as some anime fans more generally, and those who invest interest in Anno's career. Deconstructing mecha anime, or magical girl tropes as in Puella Magi Madoka Magica can be interesting from that angle, as I'd say both Evangelion and Puella were, but there is a limit to the reach of that interest for the reliance on serving it via established tropes.

The problem I have with Evangelion, is less about the show itself succeeding in its way, and more about how that success is referenced. It often seem a bit like talking about The Dark Knight being important for showing those Engelhart/Aparo fans how Batman should be done, as if The Dark Knight is somehow more "real" than the earlier incarnation of the character. The claims of Anno intending to school mecha fans as proof of merit doesn't hold up to much useful scrutiny, whether true or not, since those fans either fully embraced Evangelion, which one can note through its popularity, or is somehow made more important for shunning those few who preferred Gundam, or whatever, as if that's of pressing importance other than as self congratulatory for not being of that group.

It's an entirely insular significance, which is fine, but not all that laudatory in nature, especially given how readily the "deconstructions" are swallowed up and put to equally shallow ends. That latter part isn't on Anno exactly, but it just points to how genres evolve. One can say Evangelion isn't a "giant robot show" (a phrase I only used, by the way, because it was tossed out as something of an insult to those fans who didn't take to Evangelion), but it really is. A "deconstruction" that uses the form of the genre it seeks to examine, is still within the bounds of the genre. That's just a normal part of genre growth. A musical that casts an eye towards the improbability of people breaking into song through song is still a musical even if it questions its own premise. See Whedon's Once More With Feeling for a pop culture version of that.

None of this is to say Evangelion is "bad", as I say, I thought it was good myself, but within limits of its form. There's nothing wrong with that and it isn't to suggest there is absolutely nothing else of merit to the show, or similar examples like Puella or The Dark Knight etc, or no reach of metaphor to larger real life condition, just that the framing through genre as much constrains meaning to anything larger as much as it adds a sense of exhilaration to those invested in the formula or the creator. That's isn't by any means unique to Anno or the show, it's an issue with all specialized genre fare as it all relies on boundaries of artifice and the fantastic. That can add enjoyment for some, but that enjoyment does require investment in the rules of the game being played.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:30 AM on December 1, 2018


I guess my question with all these live-action anime remakes is: who exactly is the intended audience? Are anime fans clamoring for these? Or is the idea that people who are put off by anime will fall in love with these stories once the ridiculous giant swords, robots, and hair are filmed in live action?

With the advent of comic book superheroes becoming the titan that ate Hollywood, all forms of nerdery is permitted.
posted by Apocryphon at 1:44 PM on December 1, 2018


since those fans either fully embraced Evangelion, which one can note through its popularity

I feel like this doesn’t necessarily hold up. Evangelion is arguably more popular than the subgenre and there was a contingent which was angry enough about it to send death threats which suggest something rather less than full embrace.
posted by juv3nal at 2:16 AM on December 2, 2018 [1 favorite]


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