Neil deGrasse Tyson accused of inappropriate behavior
November 29, 2018 8:03 PM Subscribe
Two women have spoken to independent reporter David McAfee about inappropriate behavior by Neil deGrasse Tyson. A former assistant "says she decided to quit after the negative interactions with Tyson, and that she told the story to at least one supervisor in hopes that he wouldn’t hire more female assistants for the astrophysicist."
I'm unsurprised. The dude has some arrogant asshole vibes.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 8:17 PM on November 29, 2018 [98 favorites]
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 8:17 PM on November 29, 2018 [98 favorites]
Of course he was making bad jokes during. Of course.
posted by riruro at 8:22 PM on November 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by riruro at 8:22 PM on November 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
That’s the thing with a reckoning—it doesn’t only sweep up the people you don’t like.
I was sad when Senator Al Franken resigned, but dammit, let the cleansing fire spread! There are plenty of talented and capable non-harassers to step up to the positions formerly occupied by harassers.
posted by ejs at 8:26 PM on November 29, 2018 [113 favorites]
I was sad when Senator Al Franken resigned, but dammit, let the cleansing fire spread! There are plenty of talented and capable non-harassers to step up to the positions formerly occupied by harassers.
posted by ejs at 8:26 PM on November 29, 2018 [113 favorites]
I am infuriated. So much is tied up in the image he presented. At the end of the day, Bill Cosby was only an actor, but Tyson was speaking for science; and science cannot afford to lose anything else. This will delight a broad spectrum of people with the worst possible beliefs.
Thank goodness I didn’t spend $30 on the shirt from the Hayden with a big old quote of his, as I almost did just a while ago. He is canceled.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:27 PM on November 29, 2018 [19 favorites]
Thank goodness I didn’t spend $30 on the shirt from the Hayden with a big old quote of his, as I almost did just a while ago. He is canceled.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:27 PM on November 29, 2018 [19 favorites]
his twitter takes are sooo fucking lame in a "excuse me sir but LOGIC AND SCIENCE says otherwise!!!" attempted takedowns way and I always felt kind of guilty enjoying when weird-hipster-brooklyn twitter made fun of him since he's a scientist and it seemed kind of cynical. but now whatever, fuck him
posted by windbox at 8:35 PM on November 29, 2018 [20 favorites]
posted by windbox at 8:35 PM on November 29, 2018 [20 favorites]
I continue to be astounded and appalled at just how much legacy and good will is being demolished because men who have otherwise had a lifetime of impressive achievements TURN OUT TO BE CREEPS AND WORSE.
I mean, Kevin Spacey, Bill Cosby, Al Franken, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Garrison Keillor, Morgan Freeman, Stan Lee, Louis CK, Dustin Hoffman, Matt Lauer, Tavis Smiley, Charlie Rose, Alex Kosinski, John Kricfalusi, Mario Batali...
...and of course that doesn’t even begin to consider the incalculable damage they’ve caused to their victims.
posted by darkstar at 8:43 PM on November 29, 2018 [37 favorites]
I mean, Kevin Spacey, Bill Cosby, Al Franken, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Garrison Keillor, Morgan Freeman, Stan Lee, Louis CK, Dustin Hoffman, Matt Lauer, Tavis Smiley, Charlie Rose, Alex Kosinski, John Kricfalusi, Mario Batali...
...and of course that doesn’t even begin to consider the incalculable damage they’ve caused to their victims.
posted by darkstar at 8:43 PM on November 29, 2018 [37 favorites]
There are and have always been swinging dicks in every locale, circle and stratum. But only now does it begin to finally exact a price, much to their dismay and confusion...
posted by jim in austin at 8:56 PM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by jim in austin at 8:56 PM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
Um, the headline in the linked article is "Two More Women Accuse Neil deGrasse Tyson of Sexual Misconduct." More.
In addition to the astronomer and the former assistant alleging inappropriate, aggressive behavior in this article, a woman accused Tyson of drugging and raping her when they were both graduate students in the 1980s. The accusation was made on the record in an interview earlier this month, but she's spoken of it, in public, for years.
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:56 PM on November 29, 2018 [32 favorites]
In addition to the astronomer and the former assistant alleging inappropriate, aggressive behavior in this article, a woman accused Tyson of drugging and raping her when they were both graduate students in the 1980s. The accusation was made on the record in an interview earlier this month, but she's spoken of it, in public, for years.
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:56 PM on November 29, 2018 [32 favorites]
Well, shit. Another one.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:00 PM on November 29, 2018
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:00 PM on November 29, 2018
but she's spoken of it, in public, for years.
So people always knew. So he's a missing stair women have been walking around for decades and... it's just acceptable?
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 9:02 PM on November 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
So people always knew. So he's a missing stair women have been walking around for decades and... it's just acceptable?
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 9:02 PM on November 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
....Er, I remember allegations coming up against Tyson about a year ago, but everyone dropped that soon after. So my question is - why was this even dropped last year?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:06 PM on November 29, 2018 [19 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:06 PM on November 29, 2018 [19 favorites]
No! Fuck. I am so goddamned sad/furious/sad. This idiotic, burning, stupid world. Way to go, Tyson.
posted by but no cigar at 9:12 PM on November 29, 2018
posted by but no cigar at 9:12 PM on November 29, 2018
She has some extremely nonscientific beliefs on her blog. I remember looking into this a while ago, and to be honest, I thought she was unwell, and I felt bad for her. I should have stopped to consider that she could be telling the objective truth even if she believed in those things, even if she was unwell. I regret that.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:13 PM on November 29, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 9:13 PM on November 29, 2018 [12 favorites]
....Er, I remember allegations coming up against Tyson about a year ago, but everyone dropped that soon after. So my question is - why was this even dropped last year?
I don’t actually think a blog on Patheos really counts as a story breaking about an important public figure; did the story even get picked up last year? Will it be picked up this time?
posted by Going To Maine at 9:18 PM on November 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
I don’t actually think a blog on Patheos really counts as a story breaking about an important public figure; did the story even get picked up last year? Will it be picked up this time?
posted by Going To Maine at 9:18 PM on November 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
Specifically, Watson said Tyson occasionally made “misogynistic comments,” and that he kept a list of overweight actresses on his phone to prove that women aren’t inhibited by portrayals in the media when it comes to health and fitness.
This is so weird and specific that of course it's true, but who does that? That's not a normal person thing to do.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:22 PM on November 29, 2018 [48 favorites]
This is so weird and specific that of course it's true, but who does that? That's not a normal person thing to do.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:22 PM on November 29, 2018 [48 favorites]
I thought there had been rumors about this kind of behavior for years.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 9:22 PM on November 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 9:22 PM on November 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
There have been rumors about Tyson for at least a couple of years.
posted by JamesBay at 9:28 PM on November 29, 2018
posted by JamesBay at 9:28 PM on November 29, 2018
his twitter takes are sooo fucking lame in a "excuse me sir but LOGIC AND SCIENCE says otherwise!!!"
yeah when your playbook is the same as ben shapiro's...
posted by cj_ at 10:01 PM on November 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
yeah when your playbook is the same as ben shapiro's...
posted by cj_ at 10:01 PM on November 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
I’m kinda surprised that anyone is surprised, at this point. To me, it’s a surprise when a man with power doesn’t abuse it. Any man, anywhere, with any kind of power. It’s just what they do, for the most part. It’s not that I think that any man, if given power, will be abusive; it’s more like the personality traits that get them into positions of power seem to also lead to abusing women.
That’s probably why I’ve never been attracted to men with power/money. Just give me a quiet, decent man who always tries to do the right thing. Now that’s sexy.
posted by MexicanYenta at 11:07 PM on November 29, 2018 [42 favorites]
That’s probably why I’ve never been attracted to men with power/money. Just give me a quiet, decent man who always tries to do the right thing. Now that’s sexy.
posted by MexicanYenta at 11:07 PM on November 29, 2018 [42 favorites]
"Watch out guys, we're dealing with a creep over here"
posted by zaixfeep at 11:45 PM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by zaixfeep at 11:45 PM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
and that he kept a list of overweight actresses on his phone to prove that women aren’t inhibited by portrayals in the media when it comes to health and fitness
probably right next to the period tracking app he uses for the women he works with. seems like that kind of guy.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 11:52 PM on November 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
probably right next to the period tracking app he uses for the women he works with. seems like that kind of guy.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 11:52 PM on November 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
These men are goddamn predators who have been honing their skills for decades, thoroughly mastered the art of hiding in plain sight. Neil hid behind his public person of being a nerdy, goofy and leftist scientist who did social good. I still feel like a naive idiot for being duped AGAIN but now I firmly believe that men with power default to being shady and the more public their pro feminist viewpoints are, the shadier they are.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 12:07 AM on November 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Foci for Analysis at 12:07 AM on November 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
I feel like I'm watching society evolve rapidly. A new component is introduced into the atmosphere (#MeToo, in this case) and suddenly a lot of apex predators bite the dust and leave room for creatures built to thrive in that atmosphere.
posted by pracowity at 12:28 AM on November 30, 2018 [26 favorites]
posted by pracowity at 12:28 AM on November 30, 2018 [26 favorites]
Unfortunately, the night only got more awkward as Tyson, who is married, reportedly put on romantic music and replayed the most graphic parts.
She says Tyson soon brought out a cutting board and a knife to cut blocks of cheese that he decided they would share. But before slicing the snack, he allegedly gestured toward her with the knife and made a comment about stabbing.
whaaaaaaaaatthefuck.
posted by Catseye at 1:02 AM on November 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
She says Tyson soon brought out a cutting board and a knife to cut blocks of cheese that he decided they would share. But before slicing the snack, he allegedly gestured toward her with the knife and made a comment about stabbing.
whaaaaaaaaatthefuck.
posted by Catseye at 1:02 AM on November 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
Did not like him. Like him less now.
posted by ethansr at 1:08 AM on November 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by ethansr at 1:08 AM on November 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
My brother got to meet with him and speak to him personally about some pretty high echelon physics stuff once. He also got to speak with Steven Hawking. His take away for his non-science relations? Hawking was an absolute privilege and honor. Tyson? Eh. Kind of bothered him, kind of arrogant. I'm not saying my brother is a brilliant reader of people, either - he's never exactly valued that skill or had any time for developing it. But generally when someone bothers him, they turn out a bit rotten in the end.
posted by Mizu at 2:52 AM on November 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Mizu at 2:52 AM on November 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
fuck.
And the biggest, loudest molesters ever still sit in the white house, in the senate, in the house, on the SC. Aint that just ducky?
posted by james33 at 3:44 AM on November 30, 2018 [11 favorites]
And the biggest, loudest molesters ever still sit in the white house, in the senate, in the house, on the SC. Aint that just ducky?
posted by james33 at 3:44 AM on November 30, 2018 [11 favorites]
In looking up a few references I'd missed I came across exactly the resource I thought should exist (Vox, but worthwhile).
posted by abulafa at 4:10 AM on November 30, 2018
posted by abulafa at 4:10 AM on November 30, 2018
Count me in as another person who had remembered the rumors going around about Tyson for some time.
On a personal level, I also think of Tyson as one of those public scientific figures who doesn't stay in his lane of expertise or do adequate checking up on the research when making pronouncements about What Science Thinks. He's made some very confidently incorrect statements about biology, sex, and gender over the years.
These things... fit neatly and unpleasantly together into assessing his likely character for me. Especially coming from prominent scientists.
posted by sciatrix at 4:20 AM on November 30, 2018 [42 favorites]
On a personal level, I also think of Tyson as one of those public scientific figures who doesn't stay in his lane of expertise or do adequate checking up on the research when making pronouncements about What Science Thinks. He's made some very confidently incorrect statements about biology, sex, and gender over the years.
These things... fit neatly and unpleasantly together into assessing his likely character for me. Especially coming from prominent scientists.
posted by sciatrix at 4:20 AM on November 30, 2018 [42 favorites]
It's particularly disappointing because NDGT has been such an important figure in terms of representation ... not that any one person bears the responsibility of representation, but there just aren't many public physicists, and there are so few public Black men who are physicists... it makes me sad.
posted by ChuraChura at 5:26 AM on November 30, 2018 [29 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 5:26 AM on November 30, 2018 [29 favorites]
It's milkshake ducks all the way down.
posted by Grither at 5:31 AM on November 30, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by Grither at 5:31 AM on November 30, 2018 [11 favorites]
I hate it when I'm not surprised by shitty celebrity news.
On the other hand, maybe this means AstroKatie will get more attention, perhaps even a show. Her delivery always seems much more suffused with shared enthusiasm and wonder and reminds me of the kind of "this is the best of humanity" aspiration toward the stars that Carl Sagan could inspire. Also she can engage with different points of view in a respectful, eye-opening way.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:43 AM on November 30, 2018 [23 favorites]
On the other hand, maybe this means AstroKatie will get more attention, perhaps even a show. Her delivery always seems much more suffused with shared enthusiasm and wonder and reminds me of the kind of "this is the best of humanity" aspiration toward the stars that Carl Sagan could inspire. Also she can engage with different points of view in a respectful, eye-opening way.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:43 AM on November 30, 2018 [23 favorites]
At least we still have Bill Nye to advocate for science. (fingers crossed Bill Nye is not also a sexual predator)
posted by pangolin party at 5:49 AM on November 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by pangolin party at 5:49 AM on November 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
Tyson just so happened to ascend in the public eye right at time when I really needed a popular science communicator in my world. I was very into his stuff in the beginning - my most fav'd post here on MeFi is from 2011, a conversation between him and out-of-character Colbert.
Over time, he became more and more annoyingly arrogant and cruel. I was initially attracted to him because I had just finished devouring all of the James Burke and Carl Sagan I could get my mitts on. His story about Sagan when he was visiting colleges sort of formed this mental bridge for me.
But he isn't kind, or interesting, or inspirational.
He is prescriptive, self-absorbed, and...the kind of person who thinks it is his job to educate one group by running up the score against another group, rather than gathering together others in search of wonder at the nature of universe and our ability to understand it. Stopped watching and listening to his shit years ago, and just went back to read more Sagan.
This is a demon haunted world, indeed. Go fuck yourself, NdgT.
posted by lazaruslong at 5:49 AM on November 30, 2018 [15 favorites]
Over time, he became more and more annoyingly arrogant and cruel. I was initially attracted to him because I had just finished devouring all of the James Burke and Carl Sagan I could get my mitts on. His story about Sagan when he was visiting colleges sort of formed this mental bridge for me.
But he isn't kind, or interesting, or inspirational.
He is prescriptive, self-absorbed, and...the kind of person who thinks it is his job to educate one group by running up the score against another group, rather than gathering together others in search of wonder at the nature of universe and our ability to understand it. Stopped watching and listening to his shit years ago, and just went back to read more Sagan.
This is a demon haunted world, indeed. Go fuck yourself, NdgT.
posted by lazaruslong at 5:49 AM on November 30, 2018 [15 favorites]
I never found Tyson interesting or compelling, but obviously many people did (or still do), and I can appreciate how disappointing and betraying this must feel.
Any time you get to the point of having multiple credible accusers, I have no problem believing that the person is a creep. People using even small amounts of power as a license to behave badly is, if not universal, at least very common. Me-too is a strong push-back against that, and hopefully it leads to preventing creeps from gaining power in the first place, as well as continuing to create consequences for prior bad behavior.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:02 AM on November 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
Any time you get to the point of having multiple credible accusers, I have no problem believing that the person is a creep. People using even small amounts of power as a license to behave badly is, if not universal, at least very common. Me-too is a strong push-back against that, and hopefully it leads to preventing creeps from gaining power in the first place, as well as continuing to create consequences for prior bad behavior.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:02 AM on November 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
my most fav'd post here on MeFi is from 2011, a conversation between him and out-of-character Colbert.
They just did another interview.
posted by pracowity at 6:05 AM on November 30, 2018
They just did another interview.
posted by pracowity at 6:05 AM on November 30, 2018
It’s literally everywhere, especially with men of a certain age who grew up when this was never, ever, punished. I wish I could say I was shocked but I have no shock left in me for powerful men abusing power.
posted by corb at 6:14 AM on November 30, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by corb at 6:14 AM on November 30, 2018 [11 favorites]
You know, I've had that gnawing feeling about NDT for a while, the whiff of entitled asshole man, and I thought I was just being uncharitable because I resent his occasional dismissive tweets. Well. Fuck.
posted by lydhre at 6:23 AM on November 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by lydhre at 6:23 AM on November 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
>They just did another interview .
It's not that great. NgT really drops the ball on understanding religion, the timeline stuff makes no sense (except in a fictional way), and his answer to the supernova question starts to work but then, when he goes for the "aha! aren't I profound!" moment it's the opposite of what Colbert asked.
posted by timdiggerm at 6:42 AM on November 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
It's not that great. NgT really drops the ball on understanding religion, the timeline stuff makes no sense (except in a fictional way), and his answer to the supernova question starts to work but then, when he goes for the "aha! aren't I profound!" moment it's the opposite of what Colbert asked.
posted by timdiggerm at 6:42 AM on November 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
"...the kind of person who thinks it is his job to educate one group by running up the score against another group, rather than gathering together others in search of wonder at the nature of universe and our ability to understand it."
I've noticed he has an anti-Philosophy stance which is rather puzzling. From time to time, he'd explain how Science is capable of answering all of Philosophy's questions (I'm grossly oversimplifying here). And maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but in questioning what Science and Philosophy are and are not capable of, dude, you're doing Philosophy. You're a smart guy, Neil, how can you not see this? You gotta know better. Or to look at it another way, that this one thing isn't your bag is totally fine, so why this need to attack it?
I just wrote it off as a weird quirk of someone I quite admired. And this -- this I can't get past. You're a smart guy, Neil, you know better.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:22 AM on November 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
I've noticed he has an anti-Philosophy stance which is rather puzzling. From time to time, he'd explain how Science is capable of answering all of Philosophy's questions (I'm grossly oversimplifying here). And maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but in questioning what Science and Philosophy are and are not capable of, dude, you're doing Philosophy. You're a smart guy, Neil, how can you not see this? You gotta know better. Or to look at it another way, that this one thing isn't your bag is totally fine, so why this need to attack it?
I just wrote it off as a weird quirk of someone I quite admired. And this -- this I can't get past. You're a smart guy, Neil, you know better.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:22 AM on November 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
You're a smart guy, Neil, you know better.
He clearly does not. He keeps trying to invent sociology, anthropology, journalistic ethics, philosophy, urban studies-- and whenever people point out that these disciplines ALREADY EXIST and he has just always ignored them because of his "nothing but STEM" viewpoint, he brushes them off.
And he's also a creep, and an abuser, and a rapist. So no, he does not know better. He does not know better at all.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 7:31 AM on November 30, 2018 [17 favorites]
He clearly does not. He keeps trying to invent sociology, anthropology, journalistic ethics, philosophy, urban studies-- and whenever people point out that these disciplines ALREADY EXIST and he has just always ignored them because of his "nothing but STEM" viewpoint, he brushes them off.
And he's also a creep, and an abuser, and a rapist. So no, he does not know better. He does not know better at all.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 7:31 AM on November 30, 2018 [17 favorites]
It's going to take some serious astrology to explain how NgDT has had so many problems with Pluto.
posted by sfenders at 7:31 AM on November 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by sfenders at 7:31 AM on November 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
>You're a smart guy, Neil, you know better.
As it turns out, scientific intelligence and moral uprightness do not necessarily correlate (much less any kind of causation)
posted by timdiggerm at 7:51 AM on November 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
As it turns out, scientific intelligence and moral uprightness do not necessarily correlate (much less any kind of causation)
posted by timdiggerm at 7:51 AM on November 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
Count me in as another person who had remembered the rumors going around about Tyson for some time.
Same. Going at least as far back as his involvement with Seth McFarlane's Cosmos series? But then I was pretty plugged in with the internet skeptic/atheist scene at the time, so maybe the accusations just never made it out of the whisper networks I was tangential to.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:53 AM on November 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Same. Going at least as far back as his involvement with Seth McFarlane's Cosmos series? But then I was pretty plugged in with the internet skeptic/atheist scene at the time, so maybe the accusations just never made it out of the whisper networks I was tangential to.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:53 AM on November 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
following a meeting of the American Astronomical Society (AAS) in 2009. AAS didn’t have a mechanism for reporting sexual harassment at the time
This is kind of astounding. While I acknowledge that 2009 was a decade ago, I would have hoped that even then any organized group would have had some mechanism for dealing with abhorrent behavior.
posted by Kikujiro's Summer at 7:57 AM on November 30, 2018
This is kind of astounding. While I acknowledge that 2009 was a decade ago, I would have hoped that even then any organized group would have had some mechanism for dealing with abhorrent behavior.
posted by Kikujiro's Summer at 7:57 AM on November 30, 2018
Astronomy has been roiled in harassment as long as I've been paying attention. Check out #astrosh (astronomy sexual harassment) if you want to be depressed. Of course they don't have a monopoly on it, but it does seem like they've been particularly egregious.
posted by ChuraChura at 8:05 AM on November 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 8:05 AM on November 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
So no, he does not know better. He does not know better at all.
If he does not know better, then we cannot hold him culpable for these acts.
If, however, he does know that sexually assaulting women is wrong, then he can be held responsible. I am guessing that he indeed knows that assaulting women is wrong, and I am attaching responsibility to him accordingly.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:06 AM on November 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
If he does not know better, then we cannot hold him culpable for these acts.
If, however, he does know that sexually assaulting women is wrong, then he can be held responsible. I am guessing that he indeed knows that assaulting women is wrong, and I am attaching responsibility to him accordingly.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:06 AM on November 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
If he does not know better, then we cannot hold him culpable for these acts.
lolwut? This is not how culpability works, no matter how much the Donald Trumps of the world would like to think it is.
For a lot of people, there is a difference between "I know and believe this is a wrong action" and "other people claim this is wrong, but I think it rules and if I can get away with it then I will happily do so, and hey, maybe I'll build an entire career rife with sexual harassment where my accusers get memory-holed and exiled". The secret knowledge or motives of an individual's heart don't matter. Their actions do.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 8:13 AM on November 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
lolwut? This is not how culpability works, no matter how much the Donald Trumps of the world would like to think it is.
For a lot of people, there is a difference between "I know and believe this is a wrong action" and "other people claim this is wrong, but I think it rules and if I can get away with it then I will happily do so, and hey, maybe I'll build an entire career rife with sexual harassment where my accusers get memory-holed and exiled". The secret knowledge or motives of an individual's heart don't matter. Their actions do.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 8:13 AM on November 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
Astronomy has been roiled in harassment as long as I've been paying attention. Check out #astrosh (astronomy sexual harassment) if you want to be depressed. Of course they don't have a monopoly on it, but it does seem like they've been particularly egregious.
I'm not sure "particularly egregious" is fair -- at this point I would assume that there are many similar stories anywhere there are power hierarchies (and a gender imbalance skewing male; astronomy is 20-30% women these days but mostly on the younger side). If your favorite field doesn't have a lot of stories, then you might want to take a closer look. We've heard a lot in the last few years about abuse and harassment in astronomy because of the hard work of a number of determined (often young, female) astronomers to shine a light on the dark corners of the profession, and because they have persuaded/shamed/convinced the official power structures to actually do something about it for a change.
I was at that 2009 AAS meeting, though not the arfterparty, and I've been to astronomy and planetary science conferences in recent years -- 2009 was a looooong time ago in terms of how much general awareness there is even for the need for a harassment policy. (I would put the turning point at the rapid and deserved downfall of former exoplanet superstar Geoff Marcy in 2015.) There's a much stronger consensus, even among formerly oblivious senior scientists, that there is a problem, and has been one for a long time, and that it needs to be taken seriously.
There's still a long way to go, but I take having many of these stories as a good sign, not a bad sign, for a community. Every one is a little bit heartbreaking, and each one makes it more likely that there will be more stories, because someone else will be emboldened to speak up, until all the rot is plain to see.
Or in other words, this is what setting your house in order looks like.
posted by puffyn at 9:03 AM on November 30, 2018 [14 favorites]
I'm not sure "particularly egregious" is fair -- at this point I would assume that there are many similar stories anywhere there are power hierarchies (and a gender imbalance skewing male; astronomy is 20-30% women these days but mostly on the younger side). If your favorite field doesn't have a lot of stories, then you might want to take a closer look. We've heard a lot in the last few years about abuse and harassment in astronomy because of the hard work of a number of determined (often young, female) astronomers to shine a light on the dark corners of the profession, and because they have persuaded/shamed/convinced the official power structures to actually do something about it for a change.
I was at that 2009 AAS meeting, though not the arfterparty, and I've been to astronomy and planetary science conferences in recent years -- 2009 was a looooong time ago in terms of how much general awareness there is even for the need for a harassment policy. (I would put the turning point at the rapid and deserved downfall of former exoplanet superstar Geoff Marcy in 2015.) There's a much stronger consensus, even among formerly oblivious senior scientists, that there is a problem, and has been one for a long time, and that it needs to be taken seriously.
There's still a long way to go, but I take having many of these stories as a good sign, not a bad sign, for a community. Every one is a little bit heartbreaking, and each one makes it more likely that there will be more stories, because someone else will be emboldened to speak up, until all the rot is plain to see.
Or in other words, this is what setting your house in order looks like.
posted by puffyn at 9:03 AM on November 30, 2018 [14 favorites]
These conversations are always about people being sad someone they like did these things, which is fine to feel, but never and seemingly less as we go on, about the victims. They become about, usually lots of men on social media, saying the world is so awful and we're all going to hell in a handbasket or whatever and I feel like I keep saying this over and over to people: it's always been true, and women have been doing the same work deGrasse Tyson and all of these other jackasses are doing and better, and we have known about this, so what are we supposed to do with the "terrible" world we live and work in while everyone else figures it out? What are survivors supposed to do with the constant shock and horror and un-centering of Great Men and other people figuring out what it means and being ready to toss things out wholesale when it's a beloved celebrity every single time? I don't have an answer for that. I'm just frustrated.
posted by colorblock sock at 10:24 AM on November 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by colorblock sock at 10:24 AM on November 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
Oh, I'm well aware of the issues in my field. And working on them. My comment about the egregiousness of astronomy was in response to someone else's shock that there was no mechanism for reporting harassment in 2009. Astronomy - like lots of fields - had misogyny and harassment woven into the fabric of the field, to a degree I would say is egregious. The #astrosh hashtag is one of the things that spurred change, along with #safe13 in anthropology and many other things.
posted by ChuraChura at 10:35 AM on November 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by ChuraChura at 10:35 AM on November 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
If he does not know better, then we cannot hold him culpable for these acts.
WTF ? "Sorry, I didn't know it was illegal. Guess you cant hold me culpable for these acts..."
posted by Pendragon at 10:43 AM on November 30, 2018
WTF ? "Sorry, I didn't know it was illegal. Guess you cant hold me culpable for these acts..."
posted by Pendragon at 10:43 AM on November 30, 2018
> At the end of the day, Bill Cosby was only an actor
Yes... only.
posted by CheapB at 10:50 AM on November 30, 2018
Yes... only.
posted by CheapB at 10:50 AM on November 30, 2018
Thank goodness I didn’t spend $30 on the shirt from the Hayden with a big old quote of his
I've got a T-shirt with his face on it, along with Bill Nye and Sagan. Going straight into the trash; I don't even want to keep the back for a shop rag. (And I'm the kind of guy who, when I sobered up, made sure that my literally dozens of beer and bar-related T-shirts got good homes.)
You know, I've had that gnawing feeling about NDT for a while, the whiff of entitled asshole man, and I thought I was just being uncharitable because I resent his occasional dismissive tweets.
I've scented that whiff before, and have been reminded of it many times recently, after finding out what caused the stench.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:11 AM on November 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
I've got a T-shirt with his face on it, along with Bill Nye and Sagan. Going straight into the trash; I don't even want to keep the back for a shop rag. (And I'm the kind of guy who, when I sobered up, made sure that my literally dozens of beer and bar-related T-shirts got good homes.)
You know, I've had that gnawing feeling about NDT for a while, the whiff of entitled asshole man, and I thought I was just being uncharitable because I resent his occasional dismissive tweets.
I've scented that whiff before, and have been reminded of it many times recently, after finding out what caused the stench.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:11 AM on November 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Of course they don't have a monopoly on it, but it does seem like they've been particularly egregious.
Yeah, I wonder if this might be more that they've been particularly good at cleaning house and publicly determining to do better. People talk about STEM fields as "bad for women" an awful lot, for example, but I have a few friends in history and religious studies and a few other humanities, and the shit I hear there makes my toes curl. I wonder if astronomy is actually just better at not sweeping things under the rug.
Of course, you and I know what the spectrum of related disciplines between the two of us is like, so like.... shrugmoji, I guess?
posted by sciatrix at 11:31 AM on November 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
Yeah, I wonder if this might be more that they've been particularly good at cleaning house and publicly determining to do better. People talk about STEM fields as "bad for women" an awful lot, for example, but I have a few friends in history and religious studies and a few other humanities, and the shit I hear there makes my toes curl. I wonder if astronomy is actually just better at not sweeping things under the rug.
Of course, you and I know what the spectrum of related disciplines between the two of us is like, so like.... shrugmoji, I guess?
posted by sciatrix at 11:31 AM on November 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
If they are, it really is only over the past few years that they've improved and I don't really think the field as a whole gets to claim credit. As Puffyn says, what improvements there are is because of the actions of a few brave and vocal women and trainees. Just like I would never say it's great to be a woman in anthropology despite our own Ongoing Public Reckonings. Oy.
posted by ChuraChura at 11:41 AM on November 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
Yeah, absolutely. I think I'm mostly just optimistic that there are that many tough people out there demanding justice in the field, because we hear them yelling.
*deep sigh*
posted by sciatrix at 11:57 AM on November 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
*deep sigh*
posted by sciatrix at 11:57 AM on November 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
Here is a great Bill Nye quip putting NdgT in his place. Duuuude.
posted by parki at 1:18 PM on November 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by parki at 1:18 PM on November 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Another side of Tyson's celebrity is that he gets all the "black astronomer" invitations and adulation.
posted by Carol Anne at 1:28 PM on November 30, 2018
posted by Carol Anne at 1:28 PM on November 30, 2018
Wow there is a lot of animus in that clip, from almost all sides.
posted by RustyBrooks at 1:38 PM on November 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by RustyBrooks at 1:38 PM on November 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Philosopher Daniel Dennett would like to have a word. His stance is that consciousness is not real. But you'd want an actual philosopher to talk about this, not an astronomer. NDT is about as qualified as I am on the topic, which is not very.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:44 PM on November 30, 2018
posted by BungaDunga at 1:44 PM on November 30, 2018
What? You put a bunch of men on a stage together whose fields of expertise overlap and don't expect a pi-, er, pole-vaulting match...?
posted by PhineasGage at 1:49 PM on November 30, 2018
posted by PhineasGage at 1:49 PM on November 30, 2018
Meanwhile, from another sexual harasser, a comeback!?!?!?!
posted by Purposeful Grimace at 2:51 PM on November 30, 2018
posted by Purposeful Grimace at 2:51 PM on November 30, 2018
In looking up a few references I'd missed I came across exactly the resource I thought should exist (Vox, but worthwhile).
There's also this, relevant to the 'harassment in science' aspect of this FPP: "Scientist Publishes A List Of Known Harassers in Academia." Apparently, "The database only includes cases in which there is 'an institutional finding of some sort of sexual misconduct.'" The article mentions one empirical observation to come out of it: "30 percent of the harassers have been investigated on more than one occasion. The fact of being investigated did not deter them from harassing again."
posted by Wobbuffet at 3:20 PM on November 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
There's also this, relevant to the 'harassment in science' aspect of this FPP: "Scientist Publishes A List Of Known Harassers in Academia." Apparently, "The database only includes cases in which there is 'an institutional finding of some sort of sexual misconduct.'" The article mentions one empirical observation to come out of it: "30 percent of the harassers have been investigated on more than one occasion. The fact of being investigated did not deter them from harassing again."
posted by Wobbuffet at 3:20 PM on November 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
Per Variety: Neil deGrasse Tyson Sexual Misconduct Claims Being Investigated by Fox, ‘Cosmos’ Producers
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:40 AM on December 1, 2018
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:40 AM on December 1, 2018
One of the accusers is a personal friend of mine. I can verify that she told me some of the details mentioned in the article several years ago.
posted by kyrademon at 10:03 AM on December 1, 2018 [29 favorites]
posted by kyrademon at 10:03 AM on December 1, 2018 [29 favorites]
Tyson has responded to the accusations.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:19 PM on December 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:19 PM on December 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Tyson has responded to the accusations.
Proving once again that even smart guys can be really clueless.
posted by Preserver at 3:40 PM on December 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
Proving once again that even smart guys can be really clueless.
posted by Preserver at 3:40 PM on December 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
Shorter Tyson: "I did everything they said I did, but I didn't mean anything by it!"
posted by Frayed Knot at 4:04 PM on December 1, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by Frayed Knot at 4:04 PM on December 1, 2018 [8 favorites]
Man he sounds like an unbearable prick even when he’s trying to give his side of the story and advocate for an independent investigation.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 4:17 PM on December 1, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 4:17 PM on December 1, 2018 [7 favorites]
I was reported to have “groped” her by searching “up her dress”, when this was simply a search under the covered part of her shoulder of the sleeveless dress.
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/facepalm.gif
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:56 AM on December 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/facepalm.gif
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:56 AM on December 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
His response to each accusation summarized:
2009 Incident: "I can't help it, I'm just so excited by science that sometimes I will partially undress someone to see their astronomy tattoos."
2018 Incident: "I can't help it if a female production assistant takes it the wrong way when I clumsily flirt with them, and invite them over to my house for something that sounds and feels like a date, and grab them by the wrist during what should have been a normal goodbye handshake."
Early 1980s Incident: "Yeah, we had sex but it wasn't that good. She ended up pregnant a few years later, so she must have gotten around a bit. Anyway, did you know that she's into magical tuning forks now?"
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:36 PM on December 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
2009 Incident: "I can't help it, I'm just so excited by science that sometimes I will partially undress someone to see their astronomy tattoos."
2018 Incident: "I can't help it if a female production assistant takes it the wrong way when I clumsily flirt with them, and invite them over to my house for something that sounds and feels like a date, and grab them by the wrist during what should have been a normal goodbye handshake."
Early 1980s Incident: "Yeah, we had sex but it wasn't that good. She ended up pregnant a few years later, so she must have gotten around a bit. Anyway, did you know that she's into magical tuning forks now?"
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:36 PM on December 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
Oh, well done, Neil, for a) being a massive fucking creep and, a very distant b), embracing celebrity and using it as a platform to criminally damage public discourse around science. The racist, anti-science white-right are going to use this for fucking years.
posted by turbid dahlia at 5:44 PM on December 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by turbid dahlia at 5:44 PM on December 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
Tyson has responded to the accusations.
That was a strange rollercoaster, where he writes something agreeable and then weirdly veers off into the ugly territory of belittling his accusers and then back again and it just brings the whole thing.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:46 AM on December 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
That was a strange rollercoaster, where he writes something agreeable and then weirdly veers off into the ugly territory of belittling his accusers and then back again and it just brings the whole thing.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:46 AM on December 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
turbid dahlia: The racist, anti-science white-right are going to use this for fucking years.
I wouldn't worry too much about that part. As Alexandra Erin says on twitter, it's not possible to withhold ammunition from a munitions factory. Plus, he was never some kind of liberal icon -- yes, atheist, but that's had lousy representation for years. The right is definitely anti-science, but aside from some creationists, disputing astrophysics hasn't been one of their main activities. And finally, it's not an easy attack for them to wield, just as with every other time they've attempted to make hay from other revelations of groping/assault.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 9:45 PM on December 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
I wouldn't worry too much about that part. As Alexandra Erin says on twitter, it's not possible to withhold ammunition from a munitions factory. Plus, he was never some kind of liberal icon -- yes, atheist, but that's had lousy representation for years. The right is definitely anti-science, but aside from some creationists, disputing astrophysics hasn't been one of their main activities. And finally, it's not an easy attack for them to wield, just as with every other time they've attempted to make hay from other revelations of groping/assault.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 9:45 PM on December 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
Plus the whole point of science is that it's not "Neil deGrasse Tyson says that the average temperature on Earth is increasing due to a manmade increase in carbon in the atmosphere." The response to "Tyson was a sexual harasser!" is "Yep. he sure was. And that's why I stopped watching his TV show. And yet, countless experiments have proven over the years that the average temperature on Earth is increasing due to a manmade increase in carbon in the atmosphere, so he's not really germane."
posted by Etrigan at 8:39 AM on December 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 8:39 AM on December 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
The American Astronomical Society's current Harassment Policy, if anyone is curious.
posted by BrashTech at 9:16 AM on December 5, 2018
posted by BrashTech at 9:16 AM on December 5, 2018
That was a strange rollercoaster, where he writes something agreeable and then weirdly veers off into the ugly territory of belittling his accusers and then back again and it just brings the whole thing.
Frankly, though, I think it will accomplish was Tyson wants, ensure he will still be hired for TV and public speaking roles.
posted by riruro at 7:22 PM on December 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
Frankly, though, I think it will accomplish was Tyson wants, ensure he will still be hired for TV and public speaking roles.
posted by riruro at 7:22 PM on December 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
The story seems to have some legs, though I'm not sure if it's hit the major daily newspapers yet.
- Shannon Palus in Slate: "Neil deGrasse Tyson’s Response to Allegations of Sexual Assault Is Self-Defeating"
- Azeen Ghorayshi in BuzzFeed: "Nobody Believed Neil deGrasse Tyson's First Accuser. Now There Are Three More."
> I continue to be astounded and appalled at just how much legacy and good will is being demolished because men who have otherwise had a lifetime of impressive achievements TURN OUT TO BE CREEPS AND WORSE. I mean, Kevin Spacey, Bill Cosby, Al Franken, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Garrison Keillor, Morgan Freeman, Stan Lee, Louis CK
Speaking of that last one: The Woman Who Heckled Louis C.K. at His Latest Surprise Set Is Our New Hero. Don't let shitty men know peace.
posted by homunculus at 5:15 AM on December 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
Speaking of that last one: The Woman Who Heckled Louis C.K. at His Latest Surprise Set Is Our New Hero. Don't let shitty men know peace.
posted by homunculus at 5:15 AM on December 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
Chanda Prescod-Weinstein wrote a good piece about the earlier rape accusations against NDGT.
posted by ChuraChura at 11:04 AM on December 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 11:04 AM on December 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
Amber Heard: I spoke up against sexual violence — and faced our culture’s wrath. That has to change.
posted by homunculus at 7:46 AM on December 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 7:46 AM on December 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
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posted by Grandysaur at 8:04 PM on November 29, 2018 [44 favorites]