It felt like I was giving up pretty much everything
December 23, 2018 6:48 AM   Subscribe

Amazon now accounts for just shy of half of all online sales in the US and Santa’s not so little helper is expected to have another bumper Christmas this year. But there are a growing number of people whose front steps won’t be graced by Amazon packages this festive season – consumers boycotting the online retailer. (Guardian)

Steven Shamrock, 51, had been considering boycotting Amazon for a while. First when he learned how Amazon workers were treated. Jeff Bezos might be one of the richest men in the world, but Amazon’s median salary is a paltry $28,446 a year. The second time Shamrock considered boycotting Amazon was when he read about the company’s dominance in web services. Amazon Web Services controls around 45% of the world’s cloud-computing capacity and provides the web services for customers ranging from Netflix to the CIA to the UK’s Ministry of Justice.

The last straw came in May of this year when he read that Amazon was banning customers who made too many returns.

“If a company gets so big, they can start picking and choosing their customers, it’s really not a business that promotes competition,” said Shamrock, who runs his own public accounting practice in the Chicago area. According to him, nothing is good in extremes, especially large companies that can end up controlling prices or distorting them. “I think anytime a company gets that large and gets that much economic power, it never ends well.”
posted by devrim (93 comments total)

This post was deleted for the following reason: Poster's Request -- frimble



 
The last straw came in May of this year when he read that Amazon was banning customers who made too many returns.

I have no love for Amazon, but this seems a really weird objection. I guess any bar that throws out unruly customers or stops people taking the piss taking advantage of asking for a taste from each of the taps before buying a pint is also on the list of "[companies] so big, they can start picking and choosing their customers"?

All the other criticisms are legit, but that one just doesn't sit right with me.
posted by Dysk at 7:00 AM on December 23, 2018 [20 favorites]


We aren't boycotting Amazon as such - we'll get stuff from them if there's no other reasonable option, and because we live in the boonies that does happen - but we made a conscious choice to buy as local as possible, as often as possible, and that mostly means Not Amazon. The businesses around here could use the money, and even going to the local Target is keeping that cash in the economy here to a greater degree. And like thoroughburro says, going straight to the manufacturer is often a very viable option.
posted by restless_nomad at 7:04 AM on December 23, 2018 [8 favorites]


I haven’t shopped at Amazon in over a year. I never thought of it as a boycott, just as something I wanted to do for my own peace of mind.
posted by Automocar at 7:06 AM on December 23, 2018 [16 favorites]


One of the things that frustrates me about Walmart.com is the deluge of search results from random sellers with questionable merchandise. But you can relatively easily filter to Walmart's supply chain. Of course, Amazon now suffers from the same problem and filtering to Prime doesn't help. (And, apparently, Amazon comingles everything in their warehouses, meaning even ordering things sold by them doesn't avoid the counterfeit issue.)
posted by hoyland at 7:08 AM on December 23, 2018 [3 favorites]


I’m not boycotting Amazon, but I am trying not to make it my default option. I’m also trying to get away from thinking that I need to get the absolute best thing, rather than the thing that may happen to be available locally. (I think of this as the Wirecutter phenomenon.) Sometimes it really matters, and sometimes you don’t have to get the absolute perfect thing. I’ve decided that supporting brick-and-mortar retailers is sometimes a higher priority than getting the thing with all the bells and whistles.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:27 AM on December 23, 2018 [16 favorites]


I buy a lot of stupid camera crap and it's kind of head-scratching. Amazon is terrible, B&H has a really bad reputation for treating their warehouse workers poorly, and I don't have a lot of data on Adorama. And the local camera shops that still exist don't carry the kind of equipment I need.

Probably the solution here is just to buy less crap. Thankfully you can at least buy a lot of equipment used from people on random message boards.
posted by selfnoise at 7:37 AM on December 23, 2018 [2 favorites]


For me, ordering from Amazon is like eating meat. I know it would be better not to, but I don’t yet have the moral fortitude to stop.
posted by ejs at 8:05 AM on December 23, 2018 [20 favorites]


I have no love for Amazon, but this seems a really weird objection.

With fake goods being so common on Amazon these days, having a high return of purchase doesn't seem that uncommon.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 8:12 AM on December 23, 2018 [14 favorites]


I’m also trying to get away from thinking that I need to get the absolute best thing, rather than the thing that may happen to be available locally.

I had this exact conversation with my mom yesterday! I buy my kid a lot of books at Christmas, and I was bemoaning the fact that if I want to get specific books A, B, and C, then I have to find them on Amazon or spend hours calling around to the nearest bookstores and then driving(45 min & 1 hour away) to pick up the books they have, if indeed they have ones I want.

But when I was a kid things were so much simpler because you just went to the local bookstore and bought a selection of what they had. Hopefully they had a good selection, but you never felt like you had to do a day's worth of work to find the virtually unknown sequel to How Tom Beat Captain Najork and His Hired Sportsmen.
posted by lollymccatburglar at 8:13 AM on December 23, 2018 [9 favorites]


our little city Target locations don't have many things, but because Target has a national policy of having trans inclusive restrooms, their website has become my first stop for boring things like dish soap and garbage bags.

Also, our local bookstore will order specific books from their warehouse if one asks.
posted by bagel at 8:16 AM on December 23, 2018 [13 favorites]


Anand Giridharadas has been beating this drum about Facebook all week, but I think it's just as true about Google or Amazon (or, yes, eating meat): choices that individual consumers make aren't going to really going to do enough here. Amazon is a giant, well-connected company with a finger in every pie. (And the company is actually very popular!) The answer to the Amazon Problem is regulation. I guess if you get enough people to stop ordering from Amazon, that might help...but Amazon is more than just a kleenex-ordering device. I don't think we can boycott our way out of this.
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:20 AM on December 23, 2018 [32 favorites]


I'm curious: what are people in this thread buying on Amazon? I guess we could buy laundry detergent and some other household staples from Amazon, but in Canada much of the time it seems that either delivery takes a lot of time (maybe not for detergent, which seems to be next-day if you set up a recurring "subscription") or there are hidden charges. I also live on Vancouver Island.

I ordered some olive oil soap, which I find can be hard to find in this city, but Amazon tacked on a $15 delivery fee on a $4 product. For other things there just isn't a lot of selection here in Canada.

I find Amazon is useful for finding things like phone cases, and my son just built a gaming computer with some components sourced on Amazon, but I don't really use the platform.

So... what do people buy? Why would it be so hard to break with Amazon? I don't get it.
posted by JamesBay at 8:39 AM on December 23, 2018 [1 favorite]


This is an interesting situation where we have a perfect, new John Galt situation. Jeff Bezos is a clownishly superheroic asshole. Amazon is so ubiquitous that it almost constitutes a public good. Every social and environmentally person I know uses it, some to excess. But we hate it too. And if it was broken up, would it hurt as much as we think it will? Would it be so awful to shop at a handful of online retailers instead of one? Even if it went so wrong that shopping online just felt like 2010 again, was it that hard to shop online in 2010?

Also: this might not need saying, but boycotting ain't gonna do it.
posted by es_de_bah at 8:45 AM on December 23, 2018 [4 favorites]


Yall, it said in the article that boycotts can create expensive PR scandals. It's not like this is the only thing people are doing to push back. Multiple angles of attack, any little bit potentially helps. It's not nothing. It might eventually hit them in the wallet and that in combination with other advocacy can help. I get that amazon is this behemoth that ordinary citizens can't touch, I know. But if this is one of the only ways we can fight back I dont see the harm in it. And poo-poohing the whole idea as "it's not gonna help/save us" when it's one of the only things we as individuals can do is...not productive. No, boycotting alone won't save us. But until we can organize, lay out some demands, and regulate, we can't dismiss it.
posted by scruffy-looking nerfherder at 8:52 AM on December 23, 2018 [15 favorites]


If you don't boycott, they have that much more money to fight regulation and other measurss.
posted by oddman at 8:56 AM on December 23, 2018 [4 favorites]


Why would it be so hard to break with Amazon? I don't get it.

For me at least, no.

I still "rent" the occasional movie from them when it's the only option, but after years of being disgusted by Amazon's labor practices and with myself for continuing to shop there (I share my house with a union organizer, for chrissakes), I went cold turkey this past Jan. on physical orders.

It has been easy to switch the bulk of my online shopping to either eBay sellers (underrated as an alternative, IMO), to independent shops that don't use Amazon for fulfillment, or to just order and pick up at local stores (a surprising number of which now offer this as a rote option in response to online sales).

I agree that the real answer to Amazon, as with all monopolies, is regulation, but I feel better giving the $ to other, much smaller, businesses - and that does make a difference in their bottom line.
posted by ryanshepard at 8:58 AM on December 23, 2018 [6 favorites]


So... what do people buy? Why would it be so hard to break with Amazon? I don't get it.

As others have said, I buy things I can't find locally, or if I do they're a lot more expensive. For example, there's one item I buy maybe once a year that would cost nearly twice as much to buy at a local store (which is part of a national chain). Even with shipping costs it often just doesn't pay not to use Amazon. For the most part though I generally price stuff at Target or other stores first. Sometimes I would rather have the convenience of getting something quickly versus cheaper.

I have to say though, Amazon delivery is starting to get a little hinky as far as things not arriving when expected. If that gets worse I may back away from them. Knowing what day things will be delivered is pretty much the only reason I've been paying for Prime.

Would it be so awful to shop at a handful of online retailers instead of one?

I see having my credit card info at more and various online retailers a bigger risk that I'd prefer not to take. The devil you know...
posted by fuse theorem at 9:00 AM on December 23, 2018 [4 favorites]


I live in a remote mountain town, 100 miles to the nearest mall or Walmart (as a point of reference). To me Amazon Prime is a godsend. It has all but eliminated the need to commute to the city for one-off items and “trips to the mall.” It harkens back to when people would get the Sears/Eaton’s catalogue in the mail and be reliant on it. It’s nice getting stuff without paying for a whole tank of gas as a premium.

That said, i’d love a consolidated shipping stream for most of my orders, they are rarely urgent (being so remote same day and next day don’t exist) and i’d Really love it if boxes were packed they way they would be if you asked for your groceries to be boxed at the grocery store. Dense and stacked. All this cardboard air and space seems wasteful and easily addressed by proper handling at all levels of the delivery stream.
posted by furtive at 9:00 AM on December 23, 2018 [20 favorites]


“If a company gets so big, they can start picking and choosing their customers, it’s really not a business that promotes competition,”

Yeah, no. That’s a pretty uninformed statement. ANY retailer picks and chooses customers. Steal from a store? You’re banned. Swear at the cashier? You may find yourself removed from premises. Too many returns at a chain store? You’re flagged and cut off. This isn’t something only amazon does. Tons of stores have that “we reserve the right to refuse service” sign front and center. No company is forced to lose money on customers who they believe are taking advantage of them.

Now, we can have many arguments on where those lines are and if they’re fair...
posted by greermahoney at 9:11 AM on December 23, 2018 [6 favorites]


as the great American satirist Eric Reed Boucher once put it, "Give me convenience or give me death".

not aimed at folks living remotely or who are limited in their ability to get out and about
posted by philip-random at 9:14 AM on December 23, 2018 [1 favorite]


Just thinking it over now, one reason that I don't shop Target's website more is I feel it is harder to search, and just generally isn't quite as user friendly as Amazon's. Maybe I just need to suck it up on that point and resign myself to the extra time, but I really do wish they would put more money into refining the user experience. Ordering and picking up locally would be easy and I could probably make that transition fairly seamlessly. I'll have to put some thought into that.
posted by vignettist at 9:15 AM on December 23, 2018 [1 favorite]


Their streaming service is pretty awful too. They’ve managed to capture and shrink the cast of Friends to fit inside my iPad and are made to act out episodes at my whim.
posted by dr_dank at 9:25 AM on December 23, 2018 [1 favorite]


For example, there's one item I buy maybe once a year that would cost nearly twice as much to buy at a local store

Do you mind if I ask what it is? I've lived in Japan on-and-off since 1994, and we maintain a residence there. We belong to the local co-op, which does grocery deliveries. That's super useful. But it's also local (regional/rural Japan is pretty awesome if you want to do the 100-mile or even 50-mile diet).

Besides people living remotely in the US, I still don't understand the Amazon use-case beyond consuming a lot of stuff and engaging in consumer culture.

That's my assumption though, and I would love for it to be challenged.
posted by JamesBay at 9:51 AM on December 23, 2018 [1 favorite]


Matt Yglesias in Vox on December 11, "Why criticism of Amazon isn’t sticking" :
Over the summer, the Baker Center at Georgetown University polled the American public on a range of institutions and found that among Democrats, there is literally nothing that is more popular than Amazon.

Republicans, on the other hand, trust men with guns more than they trust the everything store, but Amazon still comes in at No. 3. Republicans trust Amazon more than they trust the Trump-led executive branch, more than they trust religion, and more than they trust the courts or the nonprofit sector.
I'm very excited for more studies of this, but right now it seems like we'll need a lot more agitation before a boycott will produce a meaningful result.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:55 AM on December 23, 2018 [3 favorites]


So... what do people buy? Why would it be so hard to break with Amazon? I don't get it.

So, I am someone who mostly avoids Amazon. But the thing is, when I do use it (probably 1-2x per year), it REALLY gets me out of a bind. So that's the reason it would be hard to give up.

For example, there have been times when I have needed something in advance of an important trip or event, and literally NOBODY can guarantee me shipment by that date except for Amazon. Or this year, when my cat took ill and died the week before the holidays, and I somehow had to find a way to get Christmas presents to the nieces and nephews in distant cities on time.

As others have pointed out above, if their shipping and delivery stops being reliable, I'll have no use for them. But right now, that's what they have over other retail options for me, at least when shit hits the fan.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:12 AM on December 23, 2018 [7 favorites]


A while back I exported all of our orders out of Amazon and added up everything we’d purchased over the years. Wasn’t quite six figures but was close enough.....and I shudder to think how many boxes and packing material that involved. As a parent the use case can be very compelling - realize you need diaper cream or wipes in bulk while you are up feeding a sick child at 1am - sure order it and it will be same day delivered some time in the morning. On holiday and kid is melting down because the favourite toy was left in the last hotel - sure have a replacement at your next destination by the time you get there. Consumerism at its worst but sometimes it makes the screaming stop....
posted by inflatablekiwi at 10:16 AM on December 23, 2018 [5 favorites]


(You could argue that Christmas presents are just meaningless consumer culture with a few extra bows on top, but you don't have to look my nephew in the eye over Skype.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:16 AM on December 23, 2018 [12 favorites]


I'm curious: what are people in this thread buying on Amazon? [...] in Canada much of the time it seems that either delivery takes a lot of time [...] or there are hidden charges.

It really is a different experience in the US, then. Usually Amazon is either by far the cheapest source, or the best combination of cheap-trusted-timely, for pretty much any item I need to buy. That's been changing somewhat, especially over the past two years or so ("2-day Prime shipping" has come to involve stranger and stranger values of 2, and I think the prevalence of counterfeiters is nearing a tipping point). But I still really wish there were better regulation such that I could buy there without qualms, because when it works it is extremely helpful to me as someone on a tight budget.
posted by trig at 10:30 AM on December 23, 2018 [6 favorites]


It has been easy to switch the bulk of my online shopping to either eBay sellers (underrated as an alternative, IMO), to independent shops that don't use Amazon for fulfillment, or to just order and pick up at local stores (a surprising number of which now offer this as a rote option in response to online sales).

I agree that the real answer to Amazon, as with all monopolies, is regulation, but I feel better giving the $ to other, much smaller, businesses - and that does make a difference in their bottom line.


Here's what pisses me off about all the Amazon hate based on the claim of monopoly, advocating for regulation/public takeover/breakup/etc. Claiming something is a monopoly does not make it so. And demanding regulation for a not-monopoly is... well, I'll let you decide what that is. If it's easy to switch the bulk of your online shopping to other than Amazon, then Amazon is, by definition NOT A MONOPOLY. OK, so you want Amazon regulated because they're icky, they suck or just because you hate 'em and Bezos is an asshole. Sorry, but no. You're going to need a pretty good reason to yield the sledgehammer, and in the bi-weekly anti Amazon threads that show up on MetaFilter, pretty good reasons remain sorely lacking.

Even in this thread, some people post how it's not been a big deal to avoid Amazon, and others how Amazon does pretty well once in a while. And we're now supposed to convince the world to boycott/break up/regulate Amazon because they're a monopoly sort-of-not-really, even when they're a the best way to purchase some things.

Can we just admit that this is largely axe grindy nonsense, no matter how much we hate Amazon for whatever reasons we may hold?
posted by 2N2222 at 10:40 AM on December 23, 2018 [8 favorites]


what do people buy? Why would it be so hard to break with Amazon?

I have agoraphobia. When I’m stressed out, I don’t even want to be around people I don’t know, much less deal with shopping crowds. I am stressed out right now - I bought all the Christmas presents on Amazon and that is why my family has Christmas.
posted by corb at 10:52 AM on December 23, 2018 [22 favorites]


I buy things that I need to be exactly what I need. Phone cases for my non-iphone phones, specific books, cables and things that I need to be of specific lengths, household items that need to be of specific dimensions. I work full time, my husband works full time and we have a school aged kid who has lessons and recreational needs and two weekend days a week is not enough time to spend going to every big box store in suburbia looking for these things (and let's be real, if you don't own an iPhone, you will not be purchasing accessories anywhere but online). I live in a city and there are many local stores at which to purchase artisanal hand crafted gifts and tchokes, but not so much the 6 foot USB-C cable I need, or the next book in the series my kid is reading and is desperate to have.

When it's not the Christmas season these purchases are just a couple times a year, but this Christmas I reached the end of my Evens prior to the end of my shopping list.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:00 AM on December 23, 2018 [11 favorites]


And demanding regulation for a not-monopoly is... well, I'll let you decide what that is.

Sensible good governance and part of a functional society?
posted by stet at 11:02 AM on December 23, 2018 [23 favorites]


Can we just admit that this is largely axe grindy nonsense, no matter how much we hate Amazon for whatever reasons we may hold?

Something here feels like axe grindy nonsense, but I'm not sure it's what you think it is...
posted by overglow at 11:03 AM on December 23, 2018 [11 favorites]


I let my Prime subscription expire in November. I've been somewhat surprised how easy its been to not buy from there since. Walmart.com actually turned out to be cheaper for several health related things we had on auto re-order, and at least for now I've been enjoying finding local alternatives or at least independently owned alternatives. My local indie book store is so appreciate when I buy there that the good feeling I have walking out makes up for the money I could have saved ordering from Amazon.
posted by COD at 11:07 AM on December 23, 2018


Sensible good governance and part of a functional society?

Shouldn't sensible good governance exclude bullshit arbitrary regulation?

Something here feels like axe grindy nonsense, but I'm not sure it's what you think it is...

If you can provide a reason why Amazon should be specially regulated, feel free. Attacking me for pointing out that prevailing reasons have come up wanting doesn't help.
posted by 2N2222 at 11:17 AM on December 23, 2018 [3 favorites]


I don't really have an opinion on whether or not Amazon is a monopoly. It seems others have put way more thought into it than I. Speaking of which, a quick Google (speaking of potential monopolies) of Amazon/monopoly triggers more than a little action. So to just say, No, Amazon isn't and is in no danger of becoming a monopoly feels a little sloppy.
posted by philip-random at 11:27 AM on December 23, 2018 [1 favorite]


And demanding regulation for a not-monopoly is... well, I'll let you decide what that is.

A return to the way we regulated markets pre-Bork?
posted by grandiloquiet at 11:32 AM on December 23, 2018 [3 favorites]


Commerce existed just fine before Amazon. Better, even.

Not many people want to make even the slightest sacrifices to make the world better. It’s always someone else’s sacrifice.

Not using Amazon is no hardship. The only reason it’s perceived as one is because Amazon has nearly destroyed all the other options. Which is an even greater reason to boycott it. Those options will come back.

Boycott Amazon. Or stop complaining.
posted by You Stay 'Ere An Make Sure 'E Doesn't Leave at 12:00 PM on December 23, 2018 [3 favorites]


Personally, I don't feel like Amazon is that user friendly, or frankly that good anymore. It used to be better. But these days it seems like they hardly sell anything (with everything instead being third party sellers) and as a result counterfeit it falsely advertised products are as much if a problem as they are on eBay, if not more. It's easy for me to avoid Amazon because for damn near anything I'd want to buy, there will be someone else online selling that thing (usually a retailer who is more specialised in whatever type of thing) who will be much nicer an experience to use.
posted by Dysk at 12:01 PM on December 23, 2018


Germane to the monopoly and boycott discussion, and fresh from Paris Martineau and Louise Matsakis at WIRED: "Why It's Hard To Escape Amazon's Long Reach"
[Amazon] has grown so large that [its] many subsidiaries are difficult to track—so we catalogued them all for you. This is our exhaustive map of the Kingdom of Amazon.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:04 PM on December 23, 2018 [3 favorites]


Not using Amazon is no hardship. The only reason it’s perceived as one is because Amazon has nearly destroyed all the other options.

These sentences are opposites. Perhaps you mean that Amazon has destroyed the perception that viable alternatives exist?
posted by Going To Maine at 12:07 PM on December 23, 2018 [10 favorites]


Possibly Amazon is more of a distortion to the free market as it approaches monopsony (sole or dominant buyer, of stuff or labor). Is there legal precedent, in the US or elsewhere, for regulating monopsonies?

My household does buy from the manufacturers when possible, which is probably reducing the variety of stuff we buy over time, which is good old satisficing. But I know that small companies can also be terrible employers, especially when they're almost the only game in town (monopsony!), plus as said earlier:

Amazon is terrible, B&H has a really bad reputation for treating their warehouse workers poorly, and I don't have a lot of data on Adorama

So what I really want are sensible, comprehensive, humane, and enforced labor protection laws. Which might make Amazon even more dominant in the marketplace, because they are currently very good at engineering to whatever constraints they're faced with, but that seems like a fair tradeoff for better labor conditions and also one that competitors could attack by applying smarts.
posted by clew at 12:07 PM on December 23, 2018 [12 favorites]


I'm curious: what are people in this thread buying on Amazon?

Multiple OTC medications in bulk that I need every day, basically to live "normally" and not die a few years down the line; to get them in a store would require going to multiple stores on a regular basis and cost about 5x more, in some cases almost 10x more, and I wouldn't be able to buy them in large amounts, regardless of cost. Ironically it would've been easier and cheaper (for me personally, because I have good health insurance) to get some of them when they were still only available by prescription.

I hate what they are doing, have done, and will continue to do to this country but I don't see a way to not use them right now. Walmart is absolutely not an acceptable substitute, their business practices are just as abhorrent, and to see them discussed here as though they're better somehow is as weird and creepy as the warm wishes in GHWB's obit thread.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:13 PM on December 23, 2018 [19 favorites]


Besides people living remotely in the US, I still don't understand the Amazon use-case beyond consuming a lot of stuff and engaging in consumer culture.

That's my assumption though, and I would love for it to be challenged.


I'll bite.

I work full-time with special-needs children, some of whom are highly aggressive. By the time I get home at the end of the work day to help care for my aging mother, I don't have infinite time, money, or energy to comb through local brick and mortar stores for the things she needs. She is frequently in pain and is struggling to maintain her independence, so if we need something that makes her life easier, we get it where we can. After trying three different medical-equipment stores we finally found a suitable back brace on Amazon. When she needed a specific heating pad and a paraffin hand bath for her arthritis, we found them on Amazon. I am not ok with leaving my mom to suffer while I roam Los Angeles looking for specific items, or while we wait for delivery from a more ethical company.

As for my students' parents, many of them cannot take their children to stores for various reasons. Most of them, between therapies and activities, do not have time or energy to spend on shopping trips that might end up being entirely fruitless. They need to get things done now for the sake of their child and their sanity. Let's say that the pediatrician has recommended a strict elimination diet to pin down some digestive issues that are making your child miserable. The only brand of pear juice that your child can have and that they will actually drink is available on Amazon and at Skippy's Specialty Juices. Skippy's is thirty miles away and will ship, but the juice won't arrive for six days and shipping will be an additional $20 for a case of glass bottles. Amazon can have it here tomorrow for free. For an exhausted family desperate to help their kid, it's not much of a choice.

So yes, we are "consuming a lot of stuff." This is a very common situation for a lot of people in caregiving positions. If that doesn't make sense to someone, I'm genuinely glad for their good fortune in the health of the people they care about.

I hate Amazon's labor practices. I try to avoid ordering from them when I can. But for a lot of us, Amazon orders help make our loved ones as comfortable as possible. It's not all mindless consumerism. Maybe one day when my job is less draining I can go out to the forest and harvest moss or something to treat my mom's chronic pain, but until then I have to take what I can get. And it usually needs to get here tomorrow.
posted by corey flood at 12:17 PM on December 23, 2018 [39 favorites]


I have mixed feelings about Amazon. As a shopping experience, they're pretty great. I order it, it comes, no hassle. I tend to order things like protein powder and sport supplements because they are much cheaper on Amazon than locally. I don't however, buy very many books on Amazon. I'm lucky enough to live in Portland, Ore so I physically go to Powells Books. It's inconvenient (I have to go there) and more expensive (sometimes 50%+), but I like the experience of wandering the bookstore as well as supporting my local economy.

The answer to the Amazon problem, a was said above, isn't so much a boycott, but proper regulation.
posted by elwoodwiles at 12:18 PM on December 23, 2018


FWIW, living in New Zealand it is often cheaper to buy things on Amazon and pay shipping from the US than it is to buy in stores - thinking especially of books and good quality running shoes. I'm mostly succeeding in weaning myself off it, but there is a genuine and significant cost advantage.
posted by Pink Frost at 1:00 PM on December 23, 2018 [3 favorites]


This thread reminded me to cancel my Prime subscription... which, unbeknownst to me, has gone up to 119.99/year!
posted by moink at 1:08 PM on December 23, 2018 [1 favorite]


I have been avoiding use of Amazon for several months now, because of the negative effects their deal with the US Postal Service has had on morale and functioning of USPS employees. My B-I-L is a Postmaster in a small town in Maine and it has made his life a nightmare. It's kind of just desserts for him though. He's a severely right wing GOPer who relishes privatization (he's being victimized by those trying to do same to the USPS), hates unions (as a USPS employee he's in one), and demonizes the idea nationalized healthcare (as a veteran he benefits from single payer healthcare system). Seriously though, most of his people are working seven days a week to fulfill the Amazon contract. Does anyone really need stuff delivered on Sunday? Most people I discussed this with didn't even realize they were getting packages on Sundays. Our neighborhood has a common delivery kiosk with boxes near the end of our street, so they weren't even checking the boxes and other people I know didn't see packages at their front door until they returned from work on Monday afternoon.
posted by AJScease at 1:35 PM on December 23, 2018 [2 favorites]


I do use Amazon for books, but just this year as I've become more aware not only of Amazon's shitty labour practices but now also it's increasing problem with counterfeiting and the way they treat their third party sellers, I try to avoid it for everything else if I can. I don't think you have to boycott totally - just going by the comments in this thread (and even with knowing the demographic here is not likely representative), if enough people order less it will start making a difference. It may at this point still be a rounding error for Amazon, but as pointed out, combined with bad publicity it certainly can have an effect. For those who really need to use Amazon, like some of the commenters here, you shouldn't feel guilty at all, but an overall shift away from Amazon is a good thing.

(Also, it's clearly a monopoly type problem even if maybe it's closer to monopsony, but It Needs To Be Regulated. Calling others axe-grindy when you're doing the axe grinding is just a bit much.)
posted by blue shadows at 1:48 PM on December 23, 2018 [3 favorites]


I would find it hard to quit Amazon because I don’t drive. Ordering crap we need on the internet is a way to contribute to the household. It’s not really fair to make my husband do all the schlepping - he has to do 90% already - and there just isn’t time to bus all over suburbia shopping. At this point for many of the things I need I literally don’t know where else I would check. For something like a book I can have the local bookstore downtown special order what I need, but a piano bench hinge? Spare chargers for my parents’ ten year old cell phones?

I will say we ordered a tablet for our kid from Amazon to save money and have been super disappointed - crappy hardware quality, and a ton of effort to secure it (and we’re still not sure we did that right). I dunno that buying the kiddo an iPad would really have been a blow against corporate power, though...
posted by eirias at 3:03 PM on December 23, 2018 [3 favorites]


AJScease, phooey, I'd been thinking that my city would be better off if the mass of the last-mile delivery was done by USPS. Partly because they cover every address anyway, which should reduce overall traffic, but mostly because I assumed they were still better protected than UPS/Dedex and especially gig deliverypersons.
posted by clew at 3:21 PM on December 23, 2018 [1 favorite]


I also live on Vancouver Island

Having worked in Canadian mail-order, Vancouver Island is kind of a special case. Items that Canada Post would deliver to pretty much any mainland or NL location in a week, the same items could take up to 21 days to parts of Vancouver Island. We could never find a reason why.

Living in Toronto, many Prime items are available same day. One thing that Prime has fostered is utterly irresponsible extra truck shipments. I've ended up with three separate Amazon deliveries via Purolator the same morning, all from the main warehouse but in different trucks. Prime makes it difficult to group deliveries in one package.
posted by scruss at 3:23 PM on December 23, 2018 [1 favorite]


We live in a remote spot, like furtive, Teegeeack AV Club Secretary, and several other MeFi-ites. It's 30 minutes each way to the nearest town (in good weather), and we buy stuff there when we can. But it only has a few shops (groceries, phones, shoes, basic hardware, basic ag) and we end up buying on Amazon for almost everything else. It's also a town whose attitude often ranges from unfriendly to openly snooty.

The local bookstore is very small, often unfriendly, and doesn't actually seem to like books much and likes humans even less. Buying and ordering from them in the past has been a mixed experience at best. Supporting them doesn't make them friendlier or more pro-book. Plus an increasing share of our reading is e-books now.

We sometimes make the 75+ minute hike to our region's city, and happily buy stuff there. But that's a serious trip in good weather.

When the snow and ice sock us in (which can occur nearly 1/2 the year), when disabilities keep us from getting out, Amazon helps.

Also, for cost savings: we started our own business 5 years ago and have been working desperately to keep ourselves afloat. (Health care nearly killed us; the ACA made a big difference) We cut costs *everywhere* we can.
posted by doctornemo at 3:49 PM on December 23, 2018 [2 favorites]


lollymccatburglar: "But when I was a kid things were so much simpler because you just went to the local bookstore and bought a selection of what they had. Hopefully they had a good selection, but you never felt like you had to do a day's worth of work to find the virtually unknown sequel to How Tom Beat Captain Najork and His Hired Sportsmen."

Miss the window for book though and you basically couldn't find it.

JamesBay: "For other things there just isn't a lot of selection here in Canada."

Amazon Canada is a pale imitation of the American service. It is so very frustrating to be able to order items from the States and even after the shipping pay less than the .ca price; if they even have it.

AJScease: " Does anyone really need stuff delivered on Sunday?"

Sunday delivery for Amazon is a big money maker because they get 17% more capacity out of their capital infrastructure.
posted by Mitheral at 3:53 PM on December 23, 2018


sunday delivery is literally killing your local post office. if there's anything beneficial you can do as an individual who orders from amazon, it's to never get weekend delivery unless it's an emergency. also that "your free amazon day" thing that's new is just as bad, from what i can tell.
posted by poffin boffin at 4:02 PM on December 23, 2018 [5 favorites]


I feel like this has probably been posted here before but: Confessions of a U.S. Postal Worker: “We deliver Amazon packages until we drop dead.”
posted by poffin boffin at 4:07 PM on December 23, 2018 [7 favorites]


never get weekend delivery

Ha! Amazon/USPS/Fedex/UPS will try to deliver stuff on Saturday when we're closed, then Sunday when we're also closed, then lie about trying to deliver on Monday, then show up Tuesday at 6:30 PM when we're closed, then finally somehow get it to us on Wednesday. Yes, I click the option saying we're closed on the weekend. Doesn't matter.

This is for a large office building in downtown San Francisco. TBH I'm surprised you rural people ever get deliveries.
posted by ryanrs at 4:12 PM on December 23, 2018 [4 favorites]


Oh, and I've had delivery people fake my signature enough times that I kinda don't give a fuck anymore.
posted by ryanrs at 4:13 PM on December 23, 2018


My quibble these days is with Whole Foods. (I call it Amazon Foods.) I object to the Prime discount offered at Whole Foods -- this discount is exclusively for Amazon Prime club members.

Our local Whole Foods is the only supermarket within walking distance for our densely populated neighborhood in north Seattle. I'm sure I'm not the only one who considers it a necessary community amenity. Before Amazon took over, Whole Foods charged the same prices for everyone. Now people who can afford the Prime club membership get significant discounts. Which means our low-income neighbors pay more for the same cheese and produce, etc.

On two recent shipping trips, my Prime discount netted me a $4 and $7 discount. Sure, I take the money... keeping a log and will donate that amount to local charity. And I know that I'm selling Amazon a tasty new facet of my personal data profile.

This model is different from Costco. Costco stores are outside of town, not a grocery store that a local walkable community relies on for food.
posted by valannc at 4:17 PM on December 23, 2018 [1 favorite]


Does anyone really need stuff delivered on Sunday? Most people I discussed this with didn't even realize they were getting packages on Sundays.

Hypotheticals are hard to answer, but I certainly remember being irate for ages Sunday delivery didn't exist, and was quite happy that one-day-of-no-mail madness was ending.

Threads that are critical of Amazon seem to always have this pushback about "just who uses Amazon, anyway?" This is followed up with by a bunch of stories from folks who shop from Amazon at a higher rate than the "a few things every so often" that many do. I love these accounts because they flesh out the picture of the userbase and the failings of my own imagination. However, it also seems too bad that we need these accounts. That we can't accept that the massive success of Amazon wasn't because it saves people an hour here or there but rather because it is a system that improves end users' lives in a meaningful way.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:31 PM on December 23, 2018 [4 favorites]


Having worked in Canadian mail-order, Vancouver Island is kind of a special case.

A package generally arrives in James Bay (behind the Parliament Buildings) 24-48 hours after it arrives in Richmond on the Mainland. If it gets to Richmond early enough, sometimes I'll get it the same day.

I suspect the issue for the rest of the Island is whether the package is destined for Greater Victoria or the rest of the Island. I assume that most packages to Victoria can be shipped from Richmond, whereas packages for the rest of the Island have to be sent to a hub in Nanaimo, sorted, and then sent on their way. The Island is a big place.
posted by JamesBay at 4:34 PM on December 23, 2018 [2 favorites]


Amazon Canada is a pale imitation of the American service. It is so very frustrating to be able to order items from the States and even after the shipping pay less than the .ca price; if they even have it.

Dealing with taxes or whatever is a barrier for me, but I'm only buying computer-related things.

I also live downtown with my family close to a whole bunch of shops -- London Drugs for computer stuff, Lens and Shutter for camera stuff, Munro's and Russell books (the two best bookstores in Canada) are ten-minutes' walk, an independent toy store is just up the street, a couple of grocery stores, a mall downtown... it's all within walking distance.

While I rent, I could never live in suburbia ever again.
posted by JamesBay at 4:37 PM on December 23, 2018 [1 favorite]


Maybe things are just radically different in the US, but everyone seems to be comparing Amazon exclusively to brick and mortar stores. I get that online shopping is more than just a convenience for a lot of people, but surely online shopping doesn't have to mean Amazon specifically?
posted by Dysk at 4:49 PM on December 23, 2018 [1 favorite]


I'm not saying it would be impossible for me to stop using Amazon, but it would require something of a lifestyle change. I watch streaming video on Amazon Prime. I get ebooks from Kindle. I stream music from Amazon Music. I buy comics from Comixology (which is owned by Amazon). I sometimes even buy stuff from Amazon. I have no idea how Amazon isn't an antitrust situation, beyond generations of republican and centrist rule weakening antimonopoly laws to the point where they're kind of a joke.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:35 PM on December 23, 2018 [1 favorite]


-Fuck Amazon
-A consumer boycott, unless it was really huge numbers of people, won't put a dent in Amazon's finances
-A consumer boycott, however, is cool as an expression of Amazon's falling approval ratings and, hey, maybe we can make it less cool to order from them
-There are actually lots of alternatives to amazon for most things (even outside of densely populated areas). For basic home needs, I use office supply services like Supplytime and Newegg, but there are a lot. Also Ebay has lots of stuff. Even better, you get discounts for bulk purchases of, say, paper towels.
-How do we get a boycott of AWS going? THAT would be a big deal
-A fun way to stick it to Amazon is to support their employees' attempts to unionize
posted by Grimp0teuthis at 5:37 PM on December 23, 2018 [4 favorites]


Amazon shipping with Prime saved me about $3k in home renovation purchases this year. For international customers, it can be a significant price point.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 5:38 PM on December 23, 2018 [1 favorite]


How do we get a boycott of AWS going? THAT would be a big deal

You convince Netflix to move to Google Cloud or Azure.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:54 PM on December 23, 2018 [3 favorites]


If you want something with a similar inventory, shopping experience, and shipping policy that isn’t Amazon... surprise, but head to Walmart.com. Their customer service is great too, because they seem to be in a come-to-Jesus moment in trying to compete against Amazon.

This seems like practically a backhanded defense of Amazon. I mean, if we imagine a world where Amazon didn't exist, the market would probably be dominated by Walmart. Maybe online, though more likely with even more brick-and-mortar megamarts. It's not like Walmart is known for its labor-friendly practices or commitment to anything other than wringing money out of everyone all along the entire supply chain, from vendor to consumer.

Amazon certainly hasn't made them behave much better towards their employees, but it has certainly prompted a horserace for better customer experiences, better selection, faster delivery, etc. etc. So in that sense, they have done a hell of a job.
posted by Kadin2048 at 6:00 PM on December 23, 2018 [2 favorites]


New Zealand is due to begin charging GST (Goods and Services Tax) on Amazon and others of 15% in October 2019.

What is the ‘Amazon tax’ and why does it matter? (Jihee Junn, The Spinoff)

As usual, the NZ government is waiting to see how successful the Australian government is with their tax before enacting our own. We've been watching their stand-off pretty closely as it may happen that we lose our access to a large part of Amazon's catalogue. Even the recent reopening of the US site to Australians is partial.

Amazon reopens US site to Australian shoppers after 'Amazon tax'
(Patrick Hatch, Sydney Morning Herald)

IMO, the tax can't happen soon enough as Amazon-owned Book Depository is making a push in NZ.

In which Amazon goes to war with New Zealand bookstores
(Sarah Forster, The Spinoff)
posted by Start with Dessert at 6:03 PM on December 23, 2018


I will often be found here criticizing the idea that individual consumers are somehow responsible for overthrowing systematic injustice with their purchasing choices, but there is still something to be said for having the way you conduct your life reflect your values, insofar as it is possible.
posted by praemunire at 7:46 PM on December 23, 2018 [13 favorites]


We buy almost all of our household supplies through Amazon, and yes, OTC medication, personal care products, foods, clothing, etc. About the only thing I don't get there is anything liquid that comes in a gallon jug; the shipping cost on something so heavy means that it's not cheaper.
posted by bq at 9:10 PM on December 23, 2018


I am a teacher, a caregiver, and I don’t own a car. If I could order from other online sellers and have a guaranteed delivery date, and not spend almost twice what it costs on Amazon, I would surely do it. I am starting to buy more from Target, eBay, HomeDepot.com, and Rakuten more, though. It takes a change of habits but I’m happy to at least try, because I really need my behavior to match my values as much as possible.
posted by shalom at 9:28 PM on December 23, 2018 [2 favorites]


I try to shop locally as much as possible, but the weirdest things turn out to drive me to Amazon. Ceramic butter dishes under $20, for one.

I live in a tiny apartment, which means I have next to no storage, so I've gone to all digital media. I miss books, but I can't store them and refuse to move them ever again so, I have a Kindle.

Whole Foods: I live next door to one, and my total savings there with my Prime discount is about 40 cents over $300. Whatever the amazing discounts are on, it's not stuff I'm buying.

I'm planning to let Prime lapse, but the area it will hurt me the most is video.
posted by taterpie at 11:39 PM on December 23, 2018


If you can provide a reason why Amazon should be specially regulated, feel free.

It's basically been said already, but to be clear : I (and I think many people in favor of regulation) don't want Amazon specially regulated. I want every business to have to treat all its workers well by law (including contractors and part-time employees). I want every business to have to follow stringent regulations on the use of user data. I want businesses to be required to take responsibility for their effects on climate change and pollution, and not be able to externalize those costs. And I want limits on the political power of large corporations in general, and of money in general. (There no way of getting to perfect on that last one, but there's definitely room for improvement.)

I don't want the current situation of having to either research every store, distributor, and manufacturer to try to make sure their practices aren't (so far known to be) worse than average, or just buy blindly and hope they're doing minimal damage.
posted by trig at 12:21 AM on December 24, 2018 [17 favorites]


Amazon shipping with Prime saved me about $3k in home renovation purchases this year. For international customers, it can be a significant price point.

I dunno where you live, but I'm in the UK not the US, and it's not like Amazon is unique in offering free shipping or cheap shipping in a lot of contexts. eBuyer will ship computer goods free above a certain price point (and charge peanuts below it). eBay sellers often price shipping into the purchase price and are that much cheaper if they don't. Play.com will ship for free. Etc, etc. (The situation is very similar for my family in Denmark, but with different specific online retailers.) Yeah, compared to ordering from other places in the US, Amazon saves you a bunch on shipping. But if you have any local places (as in, online retailers somehow focused on your geographical market) then Amazon does not have a unique or huge advantage here, even if you're in poxy small countries like Denmark.
posted by Dysk at 1:12 AM on December 24, 2018


I will often be found here criticizing the idea that individual consumers are somehow responsible for overthrowing systematic injustice with their purchasing choices, but there is still something to be said for having the way you conduct your life reflect your values, insofar as it is possible.

praemunire is right. Like many of you, I’ve been trying, without much success, to cut down on my Amazon spending. I don’t live in a remote area; I don’t have extensive medical needs; I don’t have dependents; I can drive. I’m a middle-class American with a bad habit of mindless convenient consumerism enabling the sprawl of a giant, ruthless, massively polluting, labor-destroying corporation. I don’t expect to eliminate all my spending there, but in the interest of conducting my life to match the values I’d like to think I have (upon which I think Metafilter’s community has been a good influence), I will try to make the following adjustments to my purchasing patterns in the upcoming year:

Do not buy on Amazon if:

1. You do not need that exact specific item
2. You can get that item or a mostly equivalent item more locally and within a small price difference
3. You can buy directly from the manufacturer

So far I’ve deliberately bought not on Amazon a vacuum cleaner, computer parts (love Microcenter), and jeans. Still a ton more crap I could cut out though. Here’s hoping. Thanks for the ideas, Metafilter!
posted by Bodechack at 3:08 AM on December 24, 2018 [6 favorites]


After reading how Amazon accidentally sent someone the wrong customer's Alexa recordings, I am thoroughly done with Amazon (and have unplugged my Alexas for good - as annoying as it will be to lose the over-engineered voice-activated cooking timer). I haven't bought anything from them for a while - despite once being the best place to buy a lot of stuff, nowadays there is so much junk on there from third-party sellers that unless you are looking for specific items in certain categories (usually media - games, music, films, books) it's often hard to find something that's in stock, reasonably priced, and good quality. And the things it does do well are the easiest to find elsewhere any way.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 3:55 AM on December 24, 2018 [1 favorite]


Canceling Prime went a long way towards stopping me from mindlessly buying stuff on Amazon, but my cats were disappointed when the supply of empty boxes dried up.
posted by JanetLand at 4:01 AM on December 24, 2018 [8 favorites]


I have been buying too much stuff (read: crap) on Amazon for a long time, and realizing I had a problem I cancelled Prime a few weeks ago. It runs out in like mid-February. I wasn't using the video stuff so I won't miss that, I was just buying things. Way too many things. That I largely don't need at all. I have been getting a better perspective on things, but it took awhile for me.

Recently I decided to get an electrical gizmo for a hobby that runs about $80. On Amazon, I saw several reviewers complaining that they received the item with a non-US-compatible plug, even though the item listing clearly states it's the US version. And they were pissed. And rightly so! And the fact that it is a gizmo that heats up, I wasn't comfortable just getting an adaptor plug thing for it if I got stuck with the wrong version.

So reading this, I decided that I'd rather order it online and go to a brick and mortar place where I could easily return it if it came with the wrong plug. So I actually got it from Walmart, for about the same price, shipped to the store, and it has a US plug and it's great and works fine.

But anyhow, I think I need to do that on a preferred basis, not just a "hey don't wanna get scammed here" basis.

I have known of many of the problems with Amazon already, and thank you for this thread, it is helping me see things even more clearly.
posted by cats are weird at 4:56 AM on December 24, 2018 [1 favorite]


I didn't see it mentioned here but basically my sole reason for shopping at Amazon (beside ebooks) is Amazon lockers, which are the only way I can reliably receive medium sized packages, unless I'm going to take a day off work.
posted by xigxag at 5:32 AM on December 24, 2018 [1 favorite]


Amazon was so helpful during my winter of preemie baby quarantine, but I am relieved to have that well behind me. My two Amazon purchases this year were replacement camelbak kid water bottle bite valves (I literally called 4 local stores to try to source these and failed; REI, the place where I bought the original bottle, told me point blank to buy from Amazon) and winter floor mats for my new-to-me 2014 Nissan Leaf (the manufacturer’s website routes directly to Amazon for purchasing).

It’s hard to see the choice of Target over Amazon as a moral victory, but being in Minneapolis it feels better to support the hometown corporate overlord that employs family/friends and sponsors local museums and stuff... Do people in Seattle feel the same way about their local corporate overlord?
posted by Maarika at 6:11 AM on December 24, 2018 [1 favorite]


Incidental boycotting here. I took a financial hit which slowed my shopping somewhat, dropped my subscriptions, and shifted me local only -- rarely meeting the free shipping minimum. Coincidentally, I haven't seen as many non-order-information emails. They must like active customers.
posted by filtergik at 6:14 AM on December 24, 2018


Besides people living remotely in the US, I still don't understand the Amazon use-case beyond consuming a lot of stuff and engaging in consumer culture.

That's my assumption though, and I would love for it to be challenged.
I've realized that a missing piece for me in a lot of "why would you possibly need this" conversations on Metafilter is that I'm not neurotypical. Officially, I have ADHD and sensory processing disorder, but I secretly suspect that I may be a little bit on autism spectrum. And that means that a lot of stuff that would be fine for other people is kind of tough for me. I absolutely can do it: if I need to, I can make a shopping list and go to the mall and get the things on my list. But it's terrible and overwhelming, and it's really draining. If I spend Saturday morning at the mall, with the crowds and the bright lights and the total sensory overload, then I'm probably going to spend the rest of the day recovering, rather than doing whatever I would like to do on a Saturday. Buying things from Amazon allows me to preserve my emotional energy for other things.

But it is important to me that my town continues to have brick-and-mortar stores. Honestly, many of the brick-and-mortar stores aren't morally superior to Amazon. We have some independent, locally-owned stores, which is great, but a lot of the stuff that I buy from Amazon can't be bought at a local, independent store. If I don't buy it from Amazon, I'm going to buy it from Target or, God help me, Wal-mart. Some of the locally-owned stores or small chains have terrible politics. (I was going to get my vacuum cleaner fixed, but the vacuum cleaner repair shop had a giant banner on its webpage that said "Make America Clean Again." I bought a new vacuum cleaner from Bed, Bath, and Beyond.) There aren't morally pure alternatives for me. But I think that it's important to have local retail, because sometimes you need to buy a mop and you need to buy it right now. This isn't entirely an ethical issue for me. It's purely about my selfish desire to live in a reasonably functional community.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:34 AM on December 24, 2018 [11 favorites]


I didn't see it mentioned here but basically my sole reason for shopping at Amazon (beside ebooks) is Amazon lockers, which are the only way I can reliably receive medium sized packages, unless I'm going to take a day off work.

amazon's ability to monopolize isn't just based on its evil business practices and extreme mistreatment of its workers. it's also based on the fact that it legitimately makes people's lives easier in reliable ways that resonate with people who might not have a ton of options or resources, which is so insidious. ideally these needs wouldn't need to be filled by a huge evil corporation because they'd already be offered by the state. why can't the USPS have lockers like this. i mean i KNOW why, because there's no money in the USPS budget for this and saying that there should be is akin to terrorism to half this idiot moron country.

see also: amazon fresh expanding into areas that are food deserts.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:57 AM on December 24, 2018 [10 favorites]


I already have enough anxiety--some rational--about ever buying anything, combined with a distrust of Amazon from back when they were just undermining bookstores. Wal Mart is (and Whole Foods was) owned by worse people than Bezos, but they all rely on the same anti-regulation global free market libertarian race to the bottom that Amazon continues to personify.

And in the meantime, Amazon has become an Octopus and the retail side may not even be the most important part of the picture.

So... what do people buy?

Soapbox:

Junk. The vital medicines and social anxiety and quality of life and convenience of rural delivery factors mentioned above are one side of a coin, the other side of which is an environmental, human rights, public policy, and regulatory disaster. The easiest way to ameliorate that is to buy less shit, if you have that option. And most of us do have the option.

This time of year is the fucking worst for this - it was bad enough before shopping online became the standard, but now it's catastrophic.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:20 AM on December 24, 2018 [4 favorites]


it legitimately makes people's lives easier in reliable ways that resonate with people who might not have a ton of options or resources

Sorry, this is totally true and I meant to fill in that "side of the coin" above with a little more nuance; really not trying to discount the myriad reasons people might find Amazon to be the best in a sea of bad options (or lack of them).

All of that was to say that Amazon is a problem, but it isn't the problem - addressing it in both regulatory and consumption spheres would be my preferred plan of attack.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:26 AM on December 24, 2018 [1 favorite]


oh yeah for sure, i don't mean to paint amazon as some kind of "problematic, but does good nevertheless" entity. whatever good they do is only done as part of their long term plans for aggressive evil in the same way that uber has legitimately made life easier for many people but their only goal is to destroy the industry so they can profit.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:37 AM on December 24, 2018 [1 favorite]


Do people in Seattle feel the same way about their local corporate overlord?

I'm still new to the city and prepared to be corrected, but my sense is an overwhelming no. (Unless you're city council and/or the mayor. I'm only a little familiar with the failure of the head tax, but I get the sense that city government LOVES Amazon and hates poor people.)

oh yeah for sure, i don't mean to paint amazon as some kind of "problematic, but does good nevertheless" entity. whatever good they do is only done as part of their long term plans for aggressive evil in the same way that uber has legitimately made life easier for many people but their only goal is to destroy the industry so they can profit.


This is an wonderful, clear-eyed view of both Amazon and Uber, and sort of why I still have a Prime membership but also carefully try to buy from other places before I go to Amazon. (Except for WalMart. I will never buy anything from WalMart. I stopped shopping at Modcloth the day they got bought by WalMart's parent company. Fuck those union-busters.)
posted by kalimac at 9:17 AM on December 24, 2018 [1 favorite]


I'm appreciating the reminders here, that people like myself, who don't face health, location, family etc etc constraints, can look first for other options and second, just generally buy a lot less stuff. I try to do those things anyway, but I know that I can be even better. The bonus is that my life is genuinely happier when I'm doing my best to live according to my values. So thanks, yet again, MetaFilter, for helping me help myself.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 1:01 PM on December 24, 2018 [1 favorite]


METAFILTER: whatever good they do is only done as part of their long term plans for aggressive evil
posted by philip-random at 1:28 PM on December 24, 2018 [5 favorites]


Personally, I think I buy less stuff and shop more thoughtfully online than I used to when I went to the mall as the default.

It's a bit hard to say, because some of what I used to spend money on switched from physical goods to virtual ones (most of my books are now ebooks, most of my music is now downloads, software doesn't come in boxes, etc.), so the amount of stuff has decreased for other reasons only loosely connected to online shopping in the buy-it-and-ship-it sense.

I don't have anything against malls (well, other than a weird sort of 90s-mallrat reflexive desire to buy an Orange Julius and furtively pour vodka into it in the food court bathroom, but that's normal, right?), but they are set up specifically to discourage the sort of surgical-strike targeted buying that I want to do. If I go into a mall, I'm probably going to walk out with stuff, and a fair amount of it poor-quality, poorly-researched, not-comparison-shopped stuff. Contra online, where I can totally just read reviews and put stuff on a list and then take it back off, ad infinitum, without spending anything at all. I've probably talked myself out of buying nearly as much stuff online than I've bought, and I think in general the subjective quality and fitness-for-purpose of what I've bought has gone up.
posted by Kadin2048 at 10:58 PM on December 24, 2018 [5 favorites]


There's definitely something to that - clearly not everyone follows the Zappos model of "buy four pairs and ship three back." I think it would be really difficult to quantify the environmental impact of electronic media vs. print/physical media, but hard to see how e.g. shipping CDs across the globe wasn't substantially worse in that regard.

When we're talking Amazon specifically, the sharing/copyright/privacy implications of the company's more recent expansions weigh as heavily on my mind as the retail stuff, but one of the tensions shows up precisely there: a balance between what seems likely to be a net environmental positive and a copyright and privacy morass.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:19 AM on December 25, 2018


it would be really difficult to quantify the environmental impact of electronic media vs. print/physical media

Yes. This is one of the zillion reasons I long for a cap-auction-rebate CO2 tax, so that I wouldn't have to try and estimate this a dozen times a day, I'd just assume that all else equal the cheaper option used less energy.
posted by clew at 12:12 PM on December 25, 2018 [1 favorite]


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