In Seattle, Nostalgia Flows as an Old Highway Nears Its End
December 26, 2018 1:00 PM Subscribe
The viaduct, the last remaining 1.4-mile stretch of this city’s elevated highway through downtown, has been a sublimely ugly and stoutly utilitarian force of engineering since 1953. After years of planning for an alternative, the viaduct will be demolished and hauled away early next year.
SR 99, one of the two major north-south arteries through downtown Seattle, will be closed for three weeks starting January 11 to realign the highway into the tunnel. ViaDOOM approacheth.
Previouslies:
Sculpture Park (2007)
Big Bertha (2013)
The Object (2013)
Seattle's unbelievable transportation megaproject fustercluck (2014)
The Aggravating Adventures of a Gigantic Tunnel Drill. (2015)
If you feel like saying 'Goodbye, Viaduct, Hello Tunnel!' in style, you can sign up for the Tunnel to Viaduct 8k run/walk or bike ride.
SR 99, one of the two major north-south arteries through downtown Seattle, will be closed for three weeks starting January 11 to realign the highway into the tunnel. ViaDOOM approacheth.
Previouslies:
Sculpture Park (2007)
Big Bertha (2013)
The Object (2013)
Seattle's unbelievable transportation megaproject fustercluck (2014)
The Aggravating Adventures of a Gigantic Tunnel Drill. (2015)
If you feel like saying 'Goodbye, Viaduct, Hello Tunnel!' in style, you can sign up for the Tunnel to Viaduct 8k run/walk or bike ride.
I think about it collapsing in an earthquake literally every time I travel on it.
posted by Artw at 1:28 PM on December 26, 2018 [25 favorites]
posted by Artw at 1:28 PM on December 26, 2018 [25 favorites]
I'm still kind of disappointed they didn't turn a segment of it into a park.
That is disappointing. The Rose Kennedy Greenway was the best thing to come out of The Big Dig, and I think Seattle could really benefit from something similar.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:39 PM on December 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
That is disappointing. The Rose Kennedy Greenway was the best thing to come out of The Big Dig, and I think Seattle could really benefit from something similar.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:39 PM on December 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
I have jury duty downtown right in the middle of the viaduct-closed-tunnel-not-yet-open period. Pray for me.
posted by bz at 1:44 PM on December 26, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by bz at 1:44 PM on December 26, 2018 [8 favorites]
Speaking from Boston's experience, I expect Seattle's nostalgia to be short lived.
posted by ocschwar at 1:47 PM on December 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by ocschwar at 1:47 PM on December 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
I think about it collapsing in an earthquake literally every time I travel on it.
Yeah I always drive in the Southbound lanes that don't have the beams directly overhead in the fantasy that this will save me from being crushed to death when it collapses.
posted by Mei's lost sandal at 1:57 PM on December 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yeah I always drive in the Southbound lanes that don't have the beams directly overhead in the fantasy that this will save me from being crushed to death when it collapses.
posted by Mei's lost sandal at 1:57 PM on December 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
Alaskan Way Viaduct - Earthquake Simulation
posted by OverlappingElvis at 2:01 PM on December 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by OverlappingElvis at 2:01 PM on December 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
Speaking from Boston's experience, I expect Seattle's nostalgia to be short lived.
More likely is simmering resentment that a bunch of developers rammed through the overpriced tunnel idea and there isn't going to be any park out of it.
But yes, relief about not dying horribly in an Earthquake? Well... how seismically stable is that tunnel, anyway?
posted by Zalzidrax at 2:02 PM on December 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
More likely is simmering resentment that a bunch of developers rammed through the overpriced tunnel idea and there isn't going to be any park out of it.
But yes, relief about not dying horribly in an Earthquake? Well... how seismically stable is that tunnel, anyway?
posted by Zalzidrax at 2:02 PM on December 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
I first visited Seattle in 2004 from LA. There was a lady, there was a friend with a couch, I was thinking about moving, etc. I rented a car at the airport and drove up 99 per the directions I got and immediately fell in love with the city as I came up along the viaduct. It was July, of course, so it was gorgeous--that's how they getcha in this town. But even if things didn't work out with the lady, I knew I had it bad for the city and got serious about moving up in the next couple of months.
The relationship lasted until 2010ish. I'm still here. I feel kinda bad about losing that road.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:10 PM on December 26, 2018 [10 favorites]
The relationship lasted until 2010ish. I'm still here. I feel kinda bad about losing that road.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:10 PM on December 26, 2018 [10 favorites]
I didn't want a park stretch of the Viaduct to fall on the city either, so am okay with not getting one. I do know that driving through the tunnel will now give me faint thoughts of death by both crush and drowning in an earthquake, but then, I also had those thoughts every time I went under the Bay on BART, and not building BART would have been dumb.
posted by clew at 2:12 PM on December 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by clew at 2:12 PM on December 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
How about we get rid of the viaduct, block off the stupid tunnel (aka viaduct doom portal), demolish I-5 and try to–maybe, just maybe–add some more transit.
posted by moink at 2:20 PM on December 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by moink at 2:20 PM on December 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
I guess the theory that the downtown grid can just handle all the viaducts N/S traffic gets a workout for this period. I’ve always been profoundly skeptical of it TBH - downtown barely accommodates the existing downtown traffic most of the time.
posted by Artw at 2:32 PM on December 26, 2018
posted by Artw at 2:32 PM on December 26, 2018
Viaduct? Why-a no chicken?
posted by Faint of Butt at 3:05 PM on December 26, 2018 [17 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 3:05 PM on December 26, 2018 [17 favorites]
How about we get rid of the viaduct, block off the stupid tunnel (aka viaduct doom portal), demolish I-5 and try to–maybe, just maybe–add some more transit.
That was literally a plot point in a movie from 1991.
The answer is No.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 3:14 PM on December 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
That was literally a plot point in a movie from 1991.
The answer is No.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 3:14 PM on December 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
the answer is no
[goes home in a funk, doesn't leave apartment for a week, cranks "blue train," makes trash angels on the floor]
posted by entropicamericana at 3:28 PM on December 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
[goes home in a funk, doesn't leave apartment for a week, cranks "blue train," makes trash angels on the floor]
posted by entropicamericana at 3:28 PM on December 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
From a native - Good riddance. The viaduct has been an eyesore on the city my whole life. I remember being 4 or 5 and walking to the aquarium with my parents; having to park near it and then walk under it to get to the waterfront was the scariest part of the visit. It really cuts off downtown from the waterfront and makes me not want to walk down there.
posted by azuresunday at 3:42 PM on December 26, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by azuresunday at 3:42 PM on December 26, 2018 [14 favorites]
I'm going to do the bike ride on Feb 3. I have some friends who are going to do some kind of "last drive" on Jan 1. A kind of organized, all-day traffic jam on the viaduct.
*shudder*
posted by gurple at 3:46 PM on December 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
*shudder*
posted by gurple at 3:46 PM on December 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
In 2001 I was living in an Eastside suburb of Seattle and had flown to New Orleans to visit a family member there during Mardi Gras. The Nisqually Quake occurred on Ash Wednesday while I was in the air on the first leg of my return travel to Seattle and, due to damage to the airport terminal and air traffic control center, we got re-routed to MSP, where I sat with several hundred other Seattle-bound passengers for several hours while increasingly implausible rumors circulated about the extent of the quake damage.
When we finally did reach SEA we were one of the first arriving flights allowed into the airport (and all of the departing flights had been cancelled.) It was pretty eerie picking our way through a completely deserted terminal littered with fallen ceiling tiles, broken glass, and other debris and at that point it seemed like some of the wilder rumors we had heard (such as that the approach to the 520 bridge had collapsed) might actually be true.
It was something of a relief to find that virtually all of what we had heard about quake damage was either flat-out false or at minimum wildly exaggerated but I still feel a twinge about the loss of the viaduct.
posted by Nerd of the North at 4:30 PM on December 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
When we finally did reach SEA we were one of the first arriving flights allowed into the airport (and all of the departing flights had been cancelled.) It was pretty eerie picking our way through a completely deserted terminal littered with fallen ceiling tiles, broken glass, and other debris and at that point it seemed like some of the wilder rumors we had heard (such as that the approach to the 520 bridge had collapsed) might actually be true.
It was something of a relief to find that virtually all of what we had heard about quake damage was either flat-out false or at minimum wildly exaggerated but I still feel a twinge about the loss of the viaduct.
posted by Nerd of the North at 4:30 PM on December 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
In Portland, a much shorter elevated roadway like this was torn down (through the NW Portland warehouse district to the Lovejoy Bridge. Removing it almost instantly transformed the neighborhood, which is now the super trendy Pearl District.
A very similar thing happened in San Francisco when the freeway spur into Chinatown/North Beach came down after an earthquake.
posted by msalt at 4:44 PM on December 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
A very similar thing happened in San Francisco when the freeway spur into Chinatown/North Beach came down after an earthquake.
posted by msalt at 4:44 PM on December 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
Wait - they're demolishing the viaduct? How are we supposed to get to the Kingdome?
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:47 PM on December 26, 2018 [27 favorites]
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:47 PM on December 26, 2018 [27 favorites]
I guess the theory that the downtown grid can just handle all the viaducts N/S traffic gets a workout for this period. I’ve always been profoundly skeptical of it TBH - downtown barely accommodates the existing downtown traffic most of the time.
It's going to be 100% gridlock. Remember that time a truck dumped a few tons of fish on the viaduct and all of downtown was jammed for the rest of the day? This will be like that... possibly forever.
I don't even really understand the plan for the post-viaduct new world order. The tunnel has no downtown exits! So traffic exits SR99 around Pioneer Square and has to navigate an extra mile of surface streets downtown? Yecch.
My plan for the coming trafficalypse is to work from home until either this all blows over or I get fired for absenteeism.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 4:54 PM on December 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
It's going to be 100% gridlock. Remember that time a truck dumped a few tons of fish on the viaduct and all of downtown was jammed for the rest of the day? This will be like that... possibly forever.
I don't even really understand the plan for the post-viaduct new world order. The tunnel has no downtown exits! So traffic exits SR99 around Pioneer Square and has to navigate an extra mile of surface streets downtown? Yecch.
My plan for the coming trafficalypse is to work from home until either this all blows over or I get fired for absenteeism.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 4:54 PM on December 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'm gonna miss sunset motorcycle rides on the top deck. Another little bit of "my Seattle" passing on...sigh.
posted by calamari kid at 4:54 PM on December 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by calamari kid at 4:54 PM on December 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
I think the theory is the downtown exits cause a huge amount of downtown congestion, which is believable, and that removing them will actually improve downtown traffic, which is a bit more questionable. The anti-tunnel part of this theory holds that north/south traffic that would have taken the viaduct would be equally well served by diffusing in an orderly manner through the downtown grid, which I consider fucking nuts.
posted by Artw at 5:30 PM on December 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by Artw at 5:30 PM on December 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
I guess the theory that the downtown grid can just handle all the viaducts N/S traffic gets a workout for this period. I’ve always been profoundly skeptical of it TBH - downtown barely accommodates the existing downtown traffic most of the time.
The thing is, traffic volume increases in proportion to available roadspace. It’s why you can’t build your way out of congestion—it works for a short time, then as people adjust traffic is as bad as it was before.
It works the same in reverse. People simply won’t make trips if they think congestion will be bad.
posted by Automocar at 5:31 PM on December 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
The thing is, traffic volume increases in proportion to available roadspace. It’s why you can’t build your way out of congestion—it works for a short time, then as people adjust traffic is as bad as it was before.
It works the same in reverse. People simply won’t make trips if they think congestion will be bad.
posted by Automocar at 5:31 PM on December 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
If you thought being stuck in traffic on an elevated highway was bad, try being stuck in traffic underground. Also, that tunnel will look shiny and futuristic for a year or so, but give it a decade and it will be a grimy gray grind full of broken lights and snakey brown extension cords running off to who-knows-what dark crevices that just stay there for months and months getting gradually more tattered and frayed but I'm sure it's fine, just fine.
You're gonna love it, says this Boston commuter.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:34 PM on December 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
You're gonna love it, says this Boston commuter.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:34 PM on December 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
Look, let's just say I really hope they do a better job with your tunnel than with ours, OK? That Boston.com link should probably come with a content warning for trauma. Hopefully, lessons have been learned.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:54 PM on December 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:54 PM on December 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
People simply won’t make trips if they think congestion will be bad.
Yes, but this kind of tritely overlooks the disruption to people's lives. People work downtown. For many, making that trip isn't any more optional than having a job is optional. And so when their commute doubles in time, they suck it up. It's always the workforce that absorbs these shocks.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 5:56 PM on December 26, 2018 [9 favorites]
Yes, but this kind of tritely overlooks the disruption to people's lives. People work downtown. For many, making that trip isn't any more optional than having a job is optional. And so when their commute doubles in time, they suck it up. It's always the workforce that absorbs these shocks.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 5:56 PM on December 26, 2018 [9 favorites]
Besides the 8k and bike ride links, 99stepforward.com seems to be where you can register for other (and free) timed-ticket walk-all-over-the-viaduct-and/or-tunnel options for Feb 2-3 weekend.
posted by cdefgfeadgagfe at 5:56 PM on December 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by cdefgfeadgagfe at 5:56 PM on December 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
Well I don't live in Seattle but this seems to be a good thing. I wouldn't want to be on that road if the CSZ rips a full nine. As much as there may Maybe socio-political reasons to object to a tunnel, the BART tunnel here in the Bay Area survived Loma Prieta far better than the previous east span of the Bay Bridge.
posted by supermedusa at 6:07 PM on December 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 6:07 PM on December 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
The tunnel would do way better than the viaduct, which is already damaged and absolutely would collapse.
posted by Artw at 6:09 PM on December 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 6:09 PM on December 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yeah, not long after I moved to Seattle I was working late and got a Lyft home, taking a route that went over the Viaduct. My driver was very chatty but in a lovely, awesome way, and was telling me about how it was coming down because in an earthquake anyone on or under it would be completely fucked. I noted that, at the time, when I rode my bike into work I went under the Viaduct part of the way*, and he recommended a) looking up when I had a chance so I could see how it was basically pinned together and b) if there was ever a quake during my commute to just bail the fuck out from under there.
So I'm not going to miss it terribly but I'm dreading traffic, even as I commute only 1 or 2 days a week. I'm already significantly faster on my bike than I am taking public transit, and that includes getting off and walking the last three steep blocks to my apartment. (I once wound up on the D going through downtown at 5:30 pm. If I had gotten off the bus, lain down, and rolled to the stop I needed to go to, I would have gotten there faster.) The gridlock is simply going to be breathtaking.
*which was terrifying, gross, and claustrophobic all at once.
posted by kalimac at 6:18 PM on December 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
So I'm not going to miss it terribly but I'm dreading traffic, even as I commute only 1 or 2 days a week. I'm already significantly faster on my bike than I am taking public transit, and that includes getting off and walking the last three steep blocks to my apartment. (I once wound up on the D going through downtown at 5:30 pm. If I had gotten off the bus, lain down, and rolled to the stop I needed to go to, I would have gotten there faster.) The gridlock is simply going to be breathtaking.
*which was terrifying, gross, and claustrophobic all at once.
posted by kalimac at 6:18 PM on December 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think about it collapsing in an earthquake literally every time I travel on it.
Oh me too! Adds flava!
More seriously, I have been in some amazing surface jams on the way south to Safeco (oops I mean T-Mobile). The Period of Maximum Constraint will be astounding and singular in American traffic-management history. If you are an out-of-office local politician, your time of Maximum Opportunity is just around the corner.
Tangentially related, I am just closing out a 60-day temp gig onsite downtown. I live less than a mile from Northgate. My drive to the NGTC Park and Rides is about 2 minutes. My bus trip downtown is fifteen minutes either way unless I have bum luck and hit the crowded bus that sits in traffic (between 5:10 and 5:40). It has been amazing and I am considering looking for Seattle minimum-wage work at the Market specifically because of the commute, or lack thereof.
posted by mwhybark at 6:26 PM on December 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
Oh me too! Adds flava!
More seriously, I have been in some amazing surface jams on the way south to Safeco (oops I mean T-Mobile). The Period of Maximum Constraint will be astounding and singular in American traffic-management history. If you are an out-of-office local politician, your time of Maximum Opportunity is just around the corner.
Tangentially related, I am just closing out a 60-day temp gig onsite downtown. I live less than a mile from Northgate. My drive to the NGTC Park and Rides is about 2 minutes. My bus trip downtown is fifteen minutes either way unless I have bum luck and hit the crowded bus that sits in traffic (between 5:10 and 5:40). It has been amazing and I am considering looking for Seattle minimum-wage work at the Market specifically because of the commute, or lack thereof.
posted by mwhybark at 6:26 PM on December 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
the BART tunnel here in the Bay Area survived Loma Prieta far better than the previous east span of the Bay Bridge.
and the Embarcadero freeway that was torn down after the earthquake due to damage sustained. And now that whole area is full of buses and people and the ferry building is no longer blocked off, and there are farmer's markets and... well the point is this is most likely a good thing for people, and a good thing for the neighborhood. Tunnels are safer then you think.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 6:36 PM on December 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
and the Embarcadero freeway that was torn down after the earthquake due to damage sustained. And now that whole area is full of buses and people and the ferry building is no longer blocked off, and there are farmer's markets and... well the point is this is most likely a good thing for people, and a good thing for the neighborhood. Tunnels are safer then you think.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 6:36 PM on December 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
the BART tunnel here in the Bay Area survived Loma PrietaOk, let's run transit in the tunnel instead of a billion more cars. I find it odd that this is set up (even accidentally) as a justification of the tunnel, but a transit tunnel != massive underground freeway car tunnel.
posted by moink at 7:07 PM on December 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
Note that the Embarcadero freeway was essentially replaced with nothing.
Boston shows replacing it with a tunnel is good. The Embarcadero example shows that replacing it with nothing is better.
posted by ocschwar at 7:28 PM on December 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
Boston shows replacing it with a tunnel is good. The Embarcadero example shows that replacing it with nothing is better.
posted by ocschwar at 7:28 PM on December 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
The light rail tunnels have been way less hassle to build, being an inverse of the viaduct replacement in that they’re on time and under budget, and I hate high hopes for it becoming an actual useful inter-neighborhood transit system over time.
OTH Seattle’s best and broadest transfer option remains buses and they run on roads (with even the bus tunnel becoming light rail only soon)
posted by Artw at 7:48 PM on December 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
OTH Seattle’s best and broadest transfer option remains buses and they run on roads (with even the bus tunnel becoming light rail only soon)
posted by Artw at 7:48 PM on December 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
When your son has a 7 AM flight and you live in N Seattle, you will have one option. We are a very long way from public transit making this trip possible. It will be chaos until the tunnel opens.
Hope we don't get scheduled for any indoor soccer games at SODO then either...
posted by Windopaene at 8:54 PM on December 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
Hope we don't get scheduled for any indoor soccer games at SODO then either...
posted by Windopaene at 8:54 PM on December 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
The elegiac tone seems inappropriate. Credulously saying that "No one wanted to be anywhere near the working waterfront of the 1920s," in the waning days of 2018 indicates continuing sympathy for an exclusive definition of personhood.
posted by ethansr at 8:56 PM on December 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by ethansr at 8:56 PM on December 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
I like the idea that you have a course of action if you are on or under a major structure during an earthquake. Sort of like hiding under your school desk during a nuclear attack.
posted by bongo_x at 9:45 PM on December 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by bongo_x at 9:45 PM on December 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
On my one visit to seattle I was shocked at the vast tent city under a section of the viaduct. I was working for amazon at the time and I couldn't comprehend how a city with such a major employer paying its engineers hundreds of thousands of dollars a year could allow so many people to exist in such poverty. Then they had the employee headcount tax proposal to raise money to fix the homeless problem but it was voted down so I guess enough people are okay with it. I wonder where they'll end up with the viaduct gone?
posted by JonB at 10:02 PM on December 26, 2018
posted by JonB at 10:02 PM on December 26, 2018
There are encampments and tent cities all over Seattle. Amazon pays a lot of its employees well, but that has only led to higher rents. A lot of out-of-town investment in real estate has contributed to that, too, and this town is heavily zoned for single-family homes. The city council keeps finding ways to not really get anything done to help the homeless. Initiatives get shot down if they might actually raise revenue or pay for something.
It's easy to say everyone in Seattle wants to help the homeless, but a more accurate statement is most of the city just wants the homeless to go away. Magically. In a guiltless puff of smoke that requires no money allocated to a budget, no re-zoning, no lower-income housing in anyone's neighborhood.
I love this city and in a lot of ways it's a liberal haven, but in a lot of other ways Seattle is selfish as fuck and completely bonkers.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:08 PM on December 26, 2018 [26 favorites]
It's easy to say everyone in Seattle wants to help the homeless, but a more accurate statement is most of the city just wants the homeless to go away. Magically. In a guiltless puff of smoke that requires no money allocated to a budget, no re-zoning, no lower-income housing in anyone's neighborhood.
I love this city and in a lot of ways it's a liberal haven, but in a lot of other ways Seattle is selfish as fuck and completely bonkers.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:08 PM on December 26, 2018 [26 favorites]
Many Seattle residents directly tie the rise of Amazon to homelessness.
There are tent cities in pretty much every park and freeway on ramp.
posted by k8t at 11:18 PM on December 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
There are tent cities in pretty much every park and freeway on ramp.
posted by k8t at 11:18 PM on December 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
In Louisville, we just expanded our huge riverfront elevated expressway system (by "just", I mean the project was completed within the last 2 years, and took 5 years to do, and was in 'planning' since I was a kid (I'm 46)). A bunch of short sighted people claim it's a giant boondoggle, because they think these projects should fix everything right now, with nary a thought toward what it means for 10-15 years down the road. Seattle's removal of the viaduct was often referred to by opponents, as if living on the banks of a constantly flooding river is similar to living on actual ocean water.
I guess what I'm saying is this stuff is *hard*. People don't want to pay for anything. And even if they do get hoodwinked into funding a huge infrastructure problem, the most vocal tend to lack any capacity to look at possible outcomes beyond the next 6-8 weeks. I can't imagine how much harder it is in a city with serious traffic issues already.
G'luck y'all.
posted by DigDoug at 6:31 AM on December 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
I guess what I'm saying is this stuff is *hard*. People don't want to pay for anything. And even if they do get hoodwinked into funding a huge infrastructure problem, the most vocal tend to lack any capacity to look at possible outcomes beyond the next 6-8 weeks. I can't imagine how much harder it is in a city with serious traffic issues already.
G'luck y'all.
posted by DigDoug at 6:31 AM on December 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
I love and miss my hometown, but not the stapled-together double decker death sandwich. That said, I get back to visit once a year or so (I left for a job in 2006), and whatever will be gained by the removal of the viaduct will be well counterbalanced by the even worse traffic, and the tunnel that Mrs. Cupcakeninja has vowed never, ever to enter. I'm of the same mind, TBH, given the age of the seawall and the quantity of downtown built on fill.
If you, too, are a fan of Seattle What Used To Be--not the history, necessarily, nor even Old Seattle--check out Vanishing Seattle, as well as Vanishing Seattle. RIP, Andy's Diner.
posted by cupcakeninja at 7:08 AM on December 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
If you, too, are a fan of Seattle What Used To Be--not the history, necessarily, nor even Old Seattle--check out Vanishing Seattle, as well as Vanishing Seattle. RIP, Andy's Diner.
posted by cupcakeninja at 7:08 AM on December 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
My selfish takeaway from all this is that a city that was once a laughingstock for using a tunneling machine that couldn't even tunnel properly has nevertheless managed to finally get rid of its elevated highway.
Meanwhile, in Toronto, we're keeping an elevated highway that is basically on life support despite it serving a peak of 5200 drivers an hour just so we can save them 3-5 minutes. So congratulations, Seattle, on your new breathing room. Maybe one day you can show us "progressive" Canadians how to build a city properly.
posted by chrominance at 7:10 AM on December 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Meanwhile, in Toronto, we're keeping an elevated highway that is basically on life support despite it serving a peak of 5200 drivers an hour just so we can save them 3-5 minutes. So congratulations, Seattle, on your new breathing room. Maybe one day you can show us "progressive" Canadians how to build a city properly.
posted by chrominance at 7:10 AM on December 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
I used to work a couple of blocks from the waterfront and spent many a lunch break dining and walking there. I don't understand the nostalgia for the viaduct at all. It is a noisy eyesore. It is basically a really long highway overpass.
posted by Fleebnork at 7:32 AM on December 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Fleebnork at 7:32 AM on December 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
The tunneling machine tunnels fine if you don’t stick garbage into the front of it. Sadly that’s precisely what most of Seattle is built on.
posted by Artw at 7:44 AM on December 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:44 AM on December 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
(Non-metaphor, FWIW. There a huge amount of in-fill with god knows what)
posted by Artw at 7:45 AM on December 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:45 AM on December 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
I have both joy and dread about this. I take 99 to and from work every day since my office is just north of downtown and right on 99 in lower Queen Anne. Having to switch to I-5 and deal with the continued Mercer Mess until the tunnel opens is going to be fucking awful. However, once it is open I look forward to not dying.
posted by joan_holloway at 8:03 AM on December 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by joan_holloway at 8:03 AM on December 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
In Louisville, we just expanded our huge riverfront elevated expressway system.... A bunch of short sighted people claim it's a giant boondoggle
induced demand is a liberal myth and cutting off a city's sightlines and non-motorized access to its waterfront is a surefire recipe for urban vitality
posted by entropicamericana at 8:11 AM on December 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
induced demand is a liberal myth and cutting off a city's sightlines and non-motorized access to its waterfront is a surefire recipe for urban vitality
posted by entropicamericana at 8:11 AM on December 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
cupcakeninja, the seawall was replaced a couple of years ago - so it should be far stronger/able to withstand a quake.
I'm within a year-ish of retiring, and have consigned myself to that time being filled with miserable commutes, and much more WFH.
I take the ferry from Bremerton (we have a shiny new fast one that gets there in a half-hour!), then go to the bus tunnel to catch my bus to Bellevue.
That's gonna change in March, when the bus tunnel gets turned over to all light rail (right now light rail and buses share the tunnel). You think traffic will be bad when they close the viaduct? Just wait until over 300 buses have to come out of their protected, safe and speedy haven below ground. whee.
Oh, and the ferry terminal is being re-built - while still functioning. Thank goodness the fast ferry doesn't use the terminal building, but a dock nearby. Still. I figure my bus commute is going to go from 20 minutes in the morning to at least 40, and the afternoon commute from 30 minutes to an hour (or more?).
posted by dbmcd at 8:44 AM on December 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm within a year-ish of retiring, and have consigned myself to that time being filled with miserable commutes, and much more WFH.
I take the ferry from Bremerton (we have a shiny new fast one that gets there in a half-hour!), then go to the bus tunnel to catch my bus to Bellevue.
That's gonna change in March, when the bus tunnel gets turned over to all light rail (right now light rail and buses share the tunnel). You think traffic will be bad when they close the viaduct? Just wait until over 300 buses have to come out of their protected, safe and speedy haven below ground. whee.
Oh, and the ferry terminal is being re-built - while still functioning. Thank goodness the fast ferry doesn't use the terminal building, but a dock nearby. Still. I figure my bus commute is going to go from 20 minutes in the morning to at least 40, and the afternoon commute from 30 minutes to an hour (or more?).
posted by dbmcd at 8:44 AM on December 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
The tunneling machine tunnels fine if you don’t stick garbage into the front of it. Sadly that’s precisely what most of Seattle is built on.
In fairness, the University of Washington warned them what was in there and the tunnel project people blew it off.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:51 AM on December 27, 2018 [6 favorites]
In fairness, the University of Washington warned them what was in there and the tunnel project people blew it off.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:51 AM on December 27, 2018 [6 favorites]
Good riddance
posted by vibratory manner of working at 10:08 AM on December 27, 2018
posted by vibratory manner of working at 10:08 AM on December 27, 2018
Viafuct.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:15 AM on December 27, 2018
posted by kirkaracha at 11:15 AM on December 27, 2018
And, in typical Seattle timing, it's been nearly 18 years since the earthquake which led to calls for it to be disassembled.
Even more curiously, during that time the people voted in favor of a monorail *4 separate times* ... and then, the city built the tunnel instead. Wonder who's in charge?
(More recently: 'Let's all vote to tax Amazon!!!', followed a few weeks later by 'Let's all (but one) vote *not* to tax Amazon!!!)
But hey, they mean well.
posted by Twang at 11:34 AM on December 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
Even more curiously, during that time the people voted in favor of a monorail *4 separate times* ... and then, the city built the tunnel instead. Wonder who's in charge?
(More recently: 'Let's all vote to tax Amazon!!!', followed a few weeks later by 'Let's all (but one) vote *not* to tax Amazon!!!)
But hey, they mean well.
posted by Twang at 11:34 AM on December 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
Even more curiously, during that time the people voted in favor of a monorail *4 separate times* ... and then, the city built the tunnel instead. Wonder who's in charge?
Well, according to law, elected representatives are in charge -- which is as it should be. Citizen initiatives are a terrible way to run a government. They are subject to the whims of deep-pocket special interests and emotional advertising. Look at California for an example of a plethora of bad initiatives.
Citizens should be able to express their preferences through initiatives, but the final decision should come down to elected representatives. It is essentially a veto power. If citizens don't like the veto, they can vote out the representatives at the next election.
posted by JackFlash at 11:48 AM on December 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Well, according to law, elected representatives are in charge -- which is as it should be. Citizen initiatives are a terrible way to run a government. They are subject to the whims of deep-pocket special interests and emotional advertising. Look at California for an example of a plethora of bad initiatives.
Citizens should be able to express their preferences through initiatives, but the final decision should come down to elected representatives. It is essentially a veto power. If citizens don't like the veto, they can vote out the representatives at the next election.
posted by JackFlash at 11:48 AM on December 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Even more curiously, during that time the people voted in favor of a monorail *4 separate times* ... and then, the city built the tunnel instead
and don't get started me on that escalator to nowhere, either
posted by entropicamericana at 11:57 AM on December 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
and don't get started me on that escalator to nowhere, either
posted by entropicamericana at 11:57 AM on December 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
The monorail... was stupid.
posted by Artw at 1:31 PM on December 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 1:31 PM on December 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Just wait until over 300 buses have to come out of their protected, safe and speedy haven below ground. whee.
Not only that, but we're selling off the bus yard at one edge of (permanently clogged) downtown. I cannot imagine that that won't hurt bus route reliability. Until we finally make one of the N-S downtown streets bus-only, or even bus-and-bike maybe that would work, which will be sometime after... uh... maybe if we're still crowded after the next crash.
posted by clew at 1:47 PM on December 27, 2018
Not only that, but we're selling off the bus yard at one edge of (permanently clogged) downtown. I cannot imagine that that won't hurt bus route reliability. Until we finally make one of the N-S downtown streets bus-only, or even bus-and-bike maybe that would work, which will be sometime after... uh... maybe if we're still crowded after the next crash.
posted by clew at 1:47 PM on December 27, 2018
Until we finally make one of the N-S downtown streets bus-only
Do you mean in addition to 3rd Ave.? Or do you mean extending the bus-only hours for 3rd Ave.?
posted by mhum at 1:56 PM on December 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Do you mean in addition to 3rd Ave.? Or do you mean extending the bus-only hours for 3rd Ave.?
posted by mhum at 1:56 PM on December 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Let's be honest: Seattle is full of terrible, awful drivers. Everyone with a car should hang their heads in shame.
The bicyclists screw up a lot, and blame the awful drivers who are indeed awful, and that's basically a wash.
Seattle pedestrians have basically no respect for their own lives. I am constantly compelled to fuck up the flow of traffic because I'm trying not to hit some pedestrian who can't be bothered to look where they're going.
Seattle is terrible at driving, bicycling, and walking. Everything should go to public transit and we should literally all work from home.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:05 PM on December 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
The bicyclists screw up a lot, and blame the awful drivers who are indeed awful, and that's basically a wash.
Seattle pedestrians have basically no respect for their own lives. I am constantly compelled to fuck up the flow of traffic because I'm trying not to hit some pedestrian who can't be bothered to look where they're going.
Seattle is terrible at driving, bicycling, and walking. Everything should go to public transit and we should literally all work from home.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:05 PM on December 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
A different bus yard, or the one at the end of the bus tunnel that is currently a hole in the ground?
posted by Artw at 2:20 PM on December 27, 2018
posted by Artw at 2:20 PM on December 27, 2018
(More recently: 'Let's all vote to tax Amazon!!!', followed a few weeks later by 'Let's all (but one) vote *not* to tax Amazon!!!)
When Boston's Big Dig was planned, it initially included the North-South Rail Link along with the highway tunnel. That part of the project never came to be for cost reasons, but the builders of the highway tunnel still future proofed their work to accommodate an eventual rail tunnel under the highway tunnel by carefully removing utility lines from the right of way and even going so far as to pour the tunnel walls so all that needs to be done is excavate the dirt out from between them. All the planning for the siting of stations and the tunnel approaches has already been done.
Except the state just commissioned a new study which recommends an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT right of way under downtown Boston, most likely to jack up the price enough to have an excuse not to build it again.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 3:07 PM on December 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
When Boston's Big Dig was planned, it initially included the North-South Rail Link along with the highway tunnel. That part of the project never came to be for cost reasons, but the builders of the highway tunnel still future proofed their work to accommodate an eventual rail tunnel under the highway tunnel by carefully removing utility lines from the right of way and even going so far as to pour the tunnel walls so all that needs to be done is excavate the dirt out from between them. All the planning for the siting of stations and the tunnel approaches has already been done.
Except the state just commissioned a new study which recommends an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT right of way under downtown Boston, most likely to jack up the price enough to have an excuse not to build it again.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 3:07 PM on December 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
When your son has a 7 AM flight and you live in N Seattle, you will have one option
Not true! Alaska and others have announced skeds outta Paine beginning in February, including direct flights to my most-traveled destinations. Unless the Paine prices are well above the SEA prices, I expect my last flight out of SEA to be in about eleven days.
posted by mwhybark at 6:18 PM on December 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Not true! Alaska and others have announced skeds outta Paine beginning in February, including direct flights to my most-traveled destinations. Unless the Paine prices are well above the SEA prices, I expect my last flight out of SEA to be in about eleven days.
posted by mwhybark at 6:18 PM on December 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Besides the 8k and bike ride links, 99stepforward.com seems to be where you can register for other (and free) timed-ticket walk-all-over-the-viaduct-and/or-tunnel options for Feb 2-3 weekend.
Thank you so much for this. As someone who's lived in the city for 20+ years now, I'm intimately familiar with both the Battery St. Tunnel and the Viaduct. I wanted to have one last chance to experience it, and on foot is a perfect pace for me. Thus, I nabbed a ticket!
I imagine it's going to be both a festive and mournful affair, just like the street/bridge party that was thrown in South Park, before the South Park Bridge closed for an extended time for repairs.
posted by spinifex23 at 10:10 PM on December 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Thank you so much for this. As someone who's lived in the city for 20+ years now, I'm intimately familiar with both the Battery St. Tunnel and the Viaduct. I wanted to have one last chance to experience it, and on foot is a perfect pace for me. Thus, I nabbed a ticket!
I imagine it's going to be both a festive and mournful affair, just like the street/bridge party that was thrown in South Park, before the South Park Bridge closed for an extended time for repairs.
posted by spinifex23 at 10:10 PM on December 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Let's be honest: Seattle is full of terrible, awful drivers. Everyone with a car should hang their heads in shame.
Naw, I'd say Seattle has terrible, awful transit planners. The people who chose a friggin' BUS TUNNEL over light rail in what, the 1980s? 1990s? A decision they reversed a couple decades later because DUH, but only after costs skyrocketed and crucial years of planning and development were lost.
And voters think more monorails are the answer?!?! How about more quiet, soothing and totally flexible (and earthquake proof) ferries?
posted by msalt at 1:00 AM on December 28, 2018
Naw, I'd say Seattle has terrible, awful transit planners. The people who chose a friggin' BUS TUNNEL over light rail in what, the 1980s? 1990s? A decision they reversed a couple decades later because DUH, but only after costs skyrocketed and crucial years of planning and development were lost.
And voters think more monorails are the answer?!?! How about more quiet, soothing and totally flexible (and earthquake proof) ferries?
posted by msalt at 1:00 AM on December 28, 2018
And voters think more monorails are the answer?!?! How about more quiet, soothing and totally flexible (and earthquake proof) ferries?
Sure, we'll just route 'em through downtown.
posted by duffell at 5:48 AM on December 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
Sure, we'll just route 'em through downtown.
posted by duffell at 5:48 AM on December 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
Speaking of trains and Old Seattle: RIP Iron Horse Restaurant, 1971-2000.
posted by duffell at 5:50 AM on December 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by duffell at 5:50 AM on December 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
Naw, I'd say Seattle has terrible, awful transit planners.
I think this is a sound general rule. Most places that are renowned for bad drivers actually just have bad infrastructure, which inspires bad driving habits. I mean, it's also true that a lot of drivers are inattentive and that people drive too damned fast on the whole, but a lot of that actually comes down to infrastructure as well, if traffic calming studies are to be believed.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:38 AM on December 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
I think this is a sound general rule. Most places that are renowned for bad drivers actually just have bad infrastructure, which inspires bad driving habits. I mean, it's also true that a lot of drivers are inattentive and that people drive too damned fast on the whole, but a lot of that actually comes down to infrastructure as well, if traffic calming studies are to be believed.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:38 AM on December 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
It’s why you can’t build your way out of congestion—it works for a short time, then as people adjust traffic is as bad as it was before
Metro Buffalo exists as the counter-example or existence proof, but the necessary condition for getting it to work seems to be "Instead of all that population growth you're projecting and planning for, what if your metro area has ~20% fewer people in 2018 than it did in 1960?"
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:00 AM on December 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
Metro Buffalo exists as the counter-example or existence proof, but the necessary condition for getting it to work seems to be "Instead of all that population growth you're projecting and planning for, what if your metro area has ~20% fewer people in 2018 than it did in 1960?"
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:00 AM on December 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
Uh...does Seattle have bad drivers? I mean, yes, people everywhere say local drivers are especially bad (I've never once heard any place reputed for its good drivers) but I've always appreciated the drive-the-limit, cross-during-the-light, generally predictable PNW traffic. What am I missing?
posted by mosst at 10:15 AM on December 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by mosst at 10:15 AM on December 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
People from pushier parts of the country think "drive-the-limit, cross-during-the-light, generally predictable PNW traffic" is bad driving.
Right now so many people have moved in from so many places that there is no longer a dominant or even modal driving style and no-one ever knows what anyone else is going to do, and that's an extra layer of fright and exasperation on top of the congestion.
posted by clew at 12:30 PM on December 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
Right now so many people have moved in from so many places that there is no longer a dominant or even modal driving style and no-one ever knows what anyone else is going to do, and that's an extra layer of fright and exasperation on top of the congestion.
posted by clew at 12:30 PM on December 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
The people who chose a friggin' BUS TUNNEL over light rail in what, the 1980s? 1990s?
That's presentism. In 1990 Seattle's population had been declining for 20 years and it really wasn't obvious that that was going to reverse. The voters and planners hedged on a tunnel that would be useful for either just-busses if they remained enough, or light rail if that got affordable. Busses were quite nice and reliable in the 1980s after Metro reorged and while traffic was still polite.
The planners had been working on it since the 1970s, or the 1910s if you're feeling historical. They don't have Hausmann power!
Oh and, a wry comparison of subway systems built or foregone and their knock-on effects. And a timeline of Seattle transit with the state lege mucking us up starting no later than 1922, criminy. I was looking for some of the especially demented pre-WWII proposals -- there was one showing a bridge across Puget Sound.
posted by clew at 12:45 PM on December 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
That's presentism. In 1990 Seattle's population had been declining for 20 years and it really wasn't obvious that that was going to reverse. The voters and planners hedged on a tunnel that would be useful for either just-busses if they remained enough, or light rail if that got affordable. Busses were quite nice and reliable in the 1980s after Metro reorged and while traffic was still polite.
The planners had been working on it since the 1970s, or the 1910s if you're feeling historical. They don't have Hausmann power!
Oh and, a wry comparison of subway systems built or foregone and their knock-on effects. And a timeline of Seattle transit with the state lege mucking us up starting no later than 1922, criminy. I was looking for some of the especially demented pre-WWII proposals -- there was one showing a bridge across Puget Sound.
posted by clew at 12:45 PM on December 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
It’s always fun when I visit NYC where all signs and directions to pedestrians and drivers seem to be taken at most as suggestions and mostly ignored.
posted by Artw at 1:20 PM on December 28, 2018
posted by Artw at 1:20 PM on December 28, 2018
I’d suggest that maybe Amazon carrying out its massive business expansion downtown this last few years maybe isn’t the best and most helpful placement for that from a transit point of view?
posted by Artw at 1:21 PM on December 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 1:21 PM on December 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
My employer, which has stodgily refused to allow regular remote work, has quietly started encouraging us to consider working from home. I've written and tested the definitive documentation for connecting to your work machine from home, something that was considered double-plus ungood. The bus commute from the south end is already awful.
posted by lhauser at 5:44 PM on December 28, 2018
posted by lhauser at 5:44 PM on December 28, 2018
Naw, I'd say Seattle has terrible, awful transit planners.
Aw, c'mon, if that were true they would've named something SLUT.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:25 PM on December 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
Aw, c'mon, if that were true they would've named something SLUT.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:25 PM on December 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
People from pushier parts of the country think "drive-the-limit, cross-during-the-light, generally predictable PNW traffic" is bad driving.
Exactly correct. Notice the mutual exasperation at pedestrian crosswalks between cross-when-you-can strangers and wait-for-the-light people. Newcomers! Pfft! My property value's doubled and so have my property taxes, damn yez!
It's a weird place to live right now. I just spent two months on a temp gig with a venture-funded startup. A minority of the full-timers live within an hour commute of the office. Nobody's ill paid or badly treated and they burn two to three hours a day on travel. That time is about to expand.
posted by mwhybark at 1:17 AM on December 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
Exactly correct. Notice the mutual exasperation at pedestrian crosswalks between cross-when-you-can strangers and wait-for-the-light people. Newcomers! Pfft! My property value's doubled and so have my property taxes, damn yez!
It's a weird place to live right now. I just spent two months on a temp gig with a venture-funded startup. A minority of the full-timers live within an hour commute of the office. Nobody's ill paid or badly treated and they burn two to three hours a day on travel. That time is about to expand.
posted by mwhybark at 1:17 AM on December 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
>>The people who chose a friggin' BUS TUNNEL over light rail in what, the 1980s? 1990s?
>That's presentism. In 1990 Seattle's population had been declining for 20 years and it really wasn't obvious that that was going to reverse. The voters and planners hedged on a tunnel that would be useful for either just-busses if they remained enough, or light rail if that got affordable. Busses were quite nice and reliable in the 1980s after Metro reorged and while traffic was still polite.
I can see why you would think that but I was living in Portland then (as now), and remember discussing how stupid and short-sighted this choice was at the time. Portland chose light-rail in the same time frame, despite being a smaller city with much weaker business prospects. Seattle at the time already had Boeing, Microsoft and Starbucks. All Portland had then was Nike, and they weren't that big yet.
posted by msalt at 3:03 PM on January 7, 2019 [1 favorite]
>That's presentism. In 1990 Seattle's population had been declining for 20 years and it really wasn't obvious that that was going to reverse. The voters and planners hedged on a tunnel that would be useful for either just-busses if they remained enough, or light rail if that got affordable. Busses were quite nice and reliable in the 1980s after Metro reorged and while traffic was still polite.
I can see why you would think that but I was living in Portland then (as now), and remember discussing how stupid and short-sighted this choice was at the time. Portland chose light-rail in the same time frame, despite being a smaller city with much weaker business prospects. Seattle at the time already had Boeing, Microsoft and Starbucks. All Portland had then was Nike, and they weren't that big yet.
posted by msalt at 3:03 PM on January 7, 2019 [1 favorite]
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