Winter is yadda yadda
January 14, 2019 7:59 AM   Subscribe

 
I like that they waited so long for the final season bc I forgot the show existed so it's like receiving an exciting package in the mail that's something interesting you ordered while on ambien.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:08 AM on January 14, 2019 [47 favorites]


Drowned God or gtfo
posted by thelonius at 8:09 AM on January 14, 2019 [11 favorites]


Also I hope the fat kid becomes King
posted by thelonius at 8:10 AM on January 14, 2019


Drowned God or gtfo

Been re-watching the early episodes, and the Drowned God is mentioned as being in some final battle, prophesy wise, so....
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:11 AM on January 14, 2019 [3 favorites]


imagine all tv as gut as got
posted by fairmettle at 8:12 AM on January 14, 2019


i just want a resolution to the tale of that one guy in the rowboat. is he still rowing? how big are his arms now.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:13 AM on January 14, 2019 [10 favorites]


Been re-watching the early episodes, and the Drowned God is mentioned as being in some final battle, prophesy wise, so....

"Winston, what happens when you mix Fire and Ice?"
posted by gauche at 8:18 AM on January 14, 2019 [1 favorite]


Also I hope the fat kid becomes King

Hotpie!
posted by supermedusa at 8:28 AM on January 14, 2019 [1 favorite]


Game Of Thrones Season 8 Trailer Breakdown and Easter Eggs (trailer + 9 minutes of dissecting what the new footage + old voice-overs [may] tell us).

Spoiler-laden recap of the story so far, from Jennifer Ouellette for Ars Technica.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:29 AM on January 14, 2019


Because I am totally mad I rewatch the whole thing again before each season... and I'm kinda glad it's the last season.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 8:35 AM on January 14, 2019 [1 favorite]


I'm still standing by my prophecy for the ending btw
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 8:39 AM on January 14, 2019 [1 favorite]


Cleganebowl 2019 or gtfo
posted by adrianhon at 8:43 AM on January 14, 2019 [10 favorites]


I haven't watched the show since season 2, but here's my predication:

Everybody's going to fight but then one of the dragons opens its mouth and "Turn Down for What" starts playing out of it. All the dead characters come back to life and everyone has a massive orgy/dance party. Sonic is there too.
posted by selfnoise at 8:45 AM on January 14, 2019 [34 favorites]


tl;dr: ( actually I read enough to get April as the "rewatch" deadline. )
posted by mikelieman at 8:46 AM on January 14, 2019 [1 favorite]


All the dead characters come back to life and everyone has a massive orgy/dance party. Sonic is there too.

Counterpoint, tomb of horrors. "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies". Which would be right on for GRRM...
posted by mikelieman at 8:47 AM on January 14, 2019 [5 favorites]


If Bran doesn't warg into the Dragon and burn King's Landing then WTF did we watch for 17 seasons?!!
posted by Liquidwolf at 8:49 AM on January 14, 2019 [8 favorites]


Sonic is there too.

sonicfox5000 right
posted by poffin boffin at 8:49 AM on January 14, 2019 [1 favorite]


I’m trying to evaluate this in terms of both the book itself and “what is GRRM going to steal from the War of the Roses”. From the latter perspective, it would make sense for Jon and Daenerys both live and are married to consolidate the throne, but despise each other like poison - they both hate ruling and are not particularly good at it when it’s larger than about a keep, Jon hates the incest, etc, and keeps Daenerys sidelined, which she really hates.

But with the Prince who was Promised stuff plus the “we have to shock”, I’ll bet on either Dany killing Jon or Jon killing Dany, because GRRM is all about “what will hurt my readers/watchers most” right now.

However, my most hoped for outcome is Arya taking the throne with someone else’s face on.
posted by corb at 8:59 AM on January 14, 2019 [9 favorites]


I'm super excited I just (finally) caught up because now I can read these threads. I had, somehow, remained almost entirely unspoiled for season 5-7.
posted by jeather at 9:02 AM on January 14, 2019 [1 favorite]


I remember being so excited for the first few seasons and by now I'm just so worn down by the show that I feel like I'm watching them as an obligation.
posted by octothorpe at 9:05 AM on January 14, 2019 [10 favorites]


Also I hope the fat kid becomes King

Vir Koto did eventually become emperor of the Centaurii Republic, yes.

Personally I'm still hoping for an ending where UN peacekeeping forces arrive and separate the warring parties in ethnic safe havens until free elections can be held.
posted by happyroach at 9:10 AM on January 14, 2019 [10 favorites]


Might as well get back into practice:
  • The freezing effect is cone of cold, obviously
  • Jon draws a longsword and holds an Attack as a reaction
  • Arya draws a rapier and holds an Attack as a reaction
  • Sansa ... uh ... Sansa ... hm ... well I hope to the old gods and the new that she's readying a spell. Something in the Abjuration school might be useful right about now. A globe of invulnerability would be clutch, if she has access to 6th-level spells.

    I'm hoping that these last episodes have more sword-swinging and spell-slinging than Persuasion-checking.

  • posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 9:10 AM on January 14, 2019 [10 favorites]


    From a War of the Roses perspective, I think Dany makes the most sense as a Henry Tudor analogue--raised abroad, coming with a foreign army, etc. But maybe I'm blinded by personal wish-fulfillment bias...

    Just got Fire & Blood--that thing is *thick*! Will see how enjoyable it is to read.
    posted by n. moon at 9:33 AM on January 14, 2019 [1 favorite]


    #TeamSansa
    posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:42 AM on January 14, 2019 [5 favorites]


    you fools

    there is only one ending

    the realm is ashes
    from winterfell to kings landing a charnel house of walkers and people alike
    the masterful architect of victory for the living sits on the iron throne

    into the red keep we go

    the cry from a ragged band echoes up and down the great hall

    "all hail king ser pounce, first of his name"
    posted by lalochezia at 9:47 AM on January 14, 2019 [18 favorites]


    Here you go:

    1. Jamie kills Cersi and takes the Black, and becomes Lord Commander.

    2. Tyrion dies.

    3. Jon and Danny get married but run off to Essos with the dragons.

    4. Sansa claims the Iron Throne.

    5. Arya, as Master of Whispers, helps #4 happen.

    6. The wall starts to fall but Sam stops it and drives the White Walkers back.

    I am right about at least one of these.
    posted by East14thTaco at 9:49 AM on January 14, 2019 [8 favorites]


    Oh man.

    I'm in the middle of a rewatch right now (only into S2), having otherwise ignored GoT since after the last season ended. I'm so, so torn.

    I hope that maybe in the end, we'll get some narrative closure.

    I fear that the amount of time/money the producers spent dragging out mid-season episodes while hoping GRRM would get his shit together has not left enough time/budget at this late date to do so.
    posted by tocts at 9:55 AM on January 14, 2019 [1 favorite]


    7. everyone is eaten by ice zombies

    8. ~1000 years later global warming destroys them all

    9. cats
    posted by poffin boffin at 9:56 AM on January 14, 2019 [10 favorites]


    They have chosen the day the Titanic struck an iceberg to premiere the final season of Game of Thrones.
    posted by little onion at 9:57 AM on January 14, 2019 [7 favorites]


    I feel pretty sure that Bran-of-now is also Bran-the-Builder, which I've thought since the first book where the nursemaid tells a story about Bran the Builder to Bran-of-now in a sort of weird way? Anyway all Bran's time-travel warging last season on the show made me much more convinced.

    And Jaime obviously kills Cersei, it's the only way he can finish his redemption arc.
    posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:12 AM on January 14, 2019 [3 favorites]


    ever since they specifically stated (more than once iirc? altho maybe not on the show) that she was the second born twin who came into the world "holding on to his ankle" or whatever I've always assumed her death would be something like: she gets thrown off a roof/cliff/whatever high place by him, and on her way down she grabs onto his ankle and takes him with her.
    posted by poffin boffin at 10:22 AM on January 14, 2019 [6 favorites]


    Remember that scene in season 7 when Jaime and Cersei are having a tense conversation in the map room? When they begin the conversation, Jaime is standing near The Fingers and Cersai is standing on The Neck.
    posted by dephlogisticated at 10:36 AM on January 14, 2019 [8 favorites]


    imagine all tv as gut as got

    Nightmare fuel...
    posted by Pendragon at 10:41 AM on January 14, 2019


    Jamie is the younger twin. Thus the ambiguity of a prophecy that her younger brother will be Cersei’s downfall. Her hostility towards Tyrion stems in part from her assumption that he is the younger brother of the prophecy.
    posted by permiechickie at 10:42 AM on January 14, 2019 [6 favorites]


    They have chosen the day the Titanic struck an iceberg to premiere the final season of Game of Thrones.

    Also the day Booth and Lincoln crossed paths at Ford's Theater as well as my old man's birthday. As Pa Biscuit says, "good things come in threes."
    posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:01 AM on January 14, 2019


    Jamie is the younger twin.

    oh god am i even recalling the right book series now. it's been 400 years.
    posted by poffin boffin at 11:10 AM on January 14, 2019 [3 favorites]


    What are the odds that GRRM is executed on screen to a) stop later books messing with show continuity, b) none of the fans will expect that, and c) it would be nice to see the characters get revenge on their greatest tormentor?
    posted by GenjiandProust at 11:12 AM on January 14, 2019 [5 favorites]


    Just got Fire & Blood--that thing is *thick*! Will see how enjoyable it is to read.

    I realized that ever since around book four, the stuff I enjoy the most in the ASOIAF books is the digressions into the backstory. F&B is basically nothing but this. It's like marshmallows-only Lucky Charms. I'm only up to the reign of Jaehaerys; we'll see if I end up sick of it all before the end. But for now, very enjoyable!
    posted by prize bull octorok at 11:13 AM on January 14, 2019 [3 favorites]


    Brienne releases Pod as her squire, and just before parting ways she and Pod share a night together. Podrick does, indeed, have the "magic cock" that the sex workers of Littlefinger's brothel discovered. Pod and Brienne don't fall in love or even spend more than the one night together, but it raises Brienne's bar as to what constitutes a good time.

    Alas, when Jaime does eventually woo her, it turns out her fantasy was just that--he's hopeless compared with Payne. They part quickly, with Jaime now heartbroken and Brienne newly freed from her formerly hopeless crush.

    Not long after, Brienne finds herself trapped with Tormund, surrounded by thousands of wights in, ironically enough, the "Tower of Love". His ardor has only been heightened by watching her smash dozens of the dead in their effort to get to safety, and Brienne herself realizes that all along she's been looking for a man who looks at her like, well, Tormund looks at her.

    The mutual climax of their passionate first union is akin to "electric Thor" hitting the ground with his hammer, a huge pulse of life which bursts outward from the Tower of Love. As it passes over the Army of the Dead, each soldier disintegrates, finding their final peace. The wight walkers themselves are revealed to be Children of the Forest, freed from their binding spell, as the force passes over them.

    At just that moment the Night King and Bran are locked in final battle. When the Wave of Life (which is experienced by most adults as the faint smell of sweat, semen and vaginal mucus while suddenly being horny) reaches them, the Three-Eyed Raven and his opponent, being the "yin and yang" of Azor Ahai are reunited and meld into a single force, which grounds itself in Sandor Clegane. The Hound is hence anointed the One True Ruler, the leader of the realms of men.

    But Sandor is wise enough to recognize who is the most qualified to actually lead, and yields to Lyanna Mormont. Samwell Tarly is her maester, though they start work on reshaping the government to be less about cabals and more about representing the people they serve.

    Jon and Dany are both equally squicked by the incest once they discover it, and Dany, having Seen Some Things, decides she can best serve the people as hand to Lyanna. Jon, with Davos, serve as arbitrators who help peacefully transition Westerous from feudalism to a socialist democracy, where the old gods have died, the great houses are now owned by the Westeros Trust, and everyone has a stipend to live a comfortable life in perpetuity.

    A bit of the Dany and Jon thing lives on, though: Drogon and Ghost turn out to be best friends, and their lovable antics bring much pleasure to a newly invigorated world.

    (And Carice van Houten, now that you're not busy, call me.)
    posted by maxwelton at 11:17 AM on January 14, 2019 [17 favorites]


    I really would've liked Jon to have stayed dead. I think that all of the heroics of his zombified self would've been more interesting and more fulfilling with once-lesser cast members stepping up to take the mantle. As it stands (even if he dies in this season as the article predicts) it's still just another 'blank slate mopey protag from unknown royalty gets a nice little hero story'. Eh...

    My ideal end is for everyone to die and for Winter to win, at this point.
    posted by codacorolla at 11:41 AM on January 14, 2019 [8 favorites]


    i just want a resolution to the tale of that one guy in the rowboat. is he still rowing? how big are his arms now.

    Gendry's fine.

    And not only is he a good rower, but also apparently a champion runner.
    posted by zakur at 11:45 AM on January 14, 2019


    I really would've liked Jon to have stayed dead.

    +1. I can't stand him.
    posted by thelonius at 11:58 AM on January 14, 2019 [3 favorites]


    If y’all think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention...
    posted by saturday_morning at 12:06 PM on January 14, 2019 [1 favorite]


    Holy overthinking it, Batman! About 10,000 dragonglass arrowheads, very sharp, chipped out of that big fucking mountain of the stuff on Dragonstone. A few volleys into that zombie army and Bob's your uncle. Ice dragon? Maybe some bigger arrowheads on that ballista that Bron was rocking last season, maybe the remaining dragons take care of their own. See, wasn't that easy? Now, just let me ghostwrite a couple of big-ass books for GRRM; hope you like reading about a whole bunch of superfluous characters getting eaten by bears.
    posted by Halloween Jack at 12:08 PM on January 14, 2019 [6 favorites]


    MetaFilter: a whole bunch of superfluous characters getting eaten by bears
    posted by GenjiandProust at 12:13 PM on January 14, 2019 [8 favorites]


    hope you like reading about a whole bunch of superfluous characters getting eaten by bears.

    A Typhoon Of Exeunt Pursued By A Bear
    posted by thelonius at 12:15 PM on January 14, 2019 [4 favorites]


    A Beør once bit my sister... No realli!
    posted by valkane at 12:16 PM on January 14, 2019 [1 favorite]


    HODOR!
    posted by DreamerFi at 12:18 PM on January 14, 2019 [1 favorite]


    I don't understand the character of Jon. He makes totally stupid decisions and is seemingly rewarded for them (in the long run).
    posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:35 PM on January 14, 2019 [1 favorite]


    Jon will be killed at the end of each episode and reborn at the beginning of the next. In the final episode, Melisandre will be killed by Davos and so cannot bring Jon back from the dead.
    posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:37 PM on January 14, 2019 [2 favorites]


    I'm only up to the reign of Jaehaerys; we'll see if I end up sick of it all before the end. But for now, very enjoyable!

    Yeah, this was about the point that my sugar rush wore off.
    posted by skewed at 12:46 PM on January 14, 2019


    It's amazing how quickly this show went from deconstruction of boring fantasy tropes, to avid reinforcement of them.
    posted by smoke at 12:48 PM on January 14, 2019 [20 favorites]


    I'd prefer that Jon learn his true background and COMPLETELY wig out and get pissed off. "What, I was treated like shit and I was born to be a king?! Fuck all y'all, I'm taking these damn chair and will have fresh fair products ALL THE TIME"

    But probably Sansa will come out on top of them all.
    posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:50 PM on January 14, 2019 [1 favorite]


    I'm a bit shocked Tyrion wasn't featured in the teaser. He's their bread and butter.

    Tyrion dies? No way, he kills Cersei and becomes king. Daenerys dies in childbirth, as her bloodline is wont to do.

    And Cersei already knows how to control the living dead. I hope she dominates the dragon and ends up saving everyone in the end.
    posted by Brocktoon at 1:06 PM on January 14, 2019


    Regardless of anything else I think about the show, I'm still delighted at the prospect of The Hound finally facing down The Mountain.
    posted by codacorolla at 1:11 PM on January 14, 2019 [4 favorites]


    Cleganebowl! GET HYPE
    posted by Halloween Jack at 1:23 PM on January 14, 2019 [5 favorites]


    But with the Prince who was Promised stuff plus the “we have to shock”, I’ll bet on either Dany killing Jon or Jon killing Dany, because GRRM is all about “what will hurt my readers/watchers most” right now.

    Doom and gloom from the megathread is spilling over into the rest of the site.
    posted by ActingTheGoat at 1:27 PM on January 14, 2019 [1 favorite]


    My ideal end is for everyone to die and for Winter to win, at this point.

    I always come back to this, as it's much more interesting than "war of the roses but with some magic stuff that may or may not ultimately matter".
    posted by Lentrohamsanin at 1:37 PM on January 14, 2019


    I wonder, I just wonder, if the book (which is coming out after the tv show ends) sells comparably to the other ones, if it will finally put paid to this idea that plot spoilers are worse than a brain tumor.
    posted by lumpenprole at 2:13 PM on January 14, 2019 [2 favorites]


    I want that kid from Bear Island on the throne. She’s got sense. At the very least, she’d better not die!
    posted by droplet at 2:20 PM on January 14, 2019 [5 favorites]


    Tyrion has zero interest in being king (Hand, sure). I want someone who WANTS to rule to rule -- by now, Dany, Cersei, maybe Sansa -- because I am so sick of the "reluctant ruler is best ruler" plot. Sorry Jon (Thor, Harry Potter, etc etc).

    the book (which is coming out after the tv show ends)

    I guess never is after the tv show ends.
    posted by jeather at 2:23 PM on January 14, 2019 [8 favorites]


    It's amazing how quickly this show went from deconstruction of boring fantasy tropes, to avid reinforcement of them.

    If I were to hazard a guess, this happened around the time the show journeyed past the ends of the published source material and into "unknown territory". D&D are hacks, it is known.
    posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 2:26 PM on January 14, 2019 [5 favorites]


    I wonder, I just wonder, if the book (which is coming out after the tv show ends) sells comparably to the other ones, if it will finally put paid to this idea that plot spoilers are worse than a brain tumor.

    If the book ever comes out it will sell like hotcakes, because the show has cut out like, literally dozens of characters that I'm actually quite interested in the stories of, and they're taking so many shortcuts that I'm really eager for 'how would it actually work out in sensible fashion'?

    But I learn to accept that the book will never exist and live with my disappointment and just never buy an uncompleted series again, because GRRM literally ruins everything.
    posted by corb at 2:32 PM on January 14, 2019 [4 favorites]


    Is GRRM really unhealthy or something? He’s only 70.
    posted by gucci mane at 2:39 PM on January 14, 2019


    There is really only one thing I want out of all of this: That Jon's parentage actually winds up being totally irrelevant.
    posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:55 PM on January 14, 2019 [4 favorites]


    Is GRRM really unhealthy or something? He’s only 70.

    He had a heart attack a few years ago, which is why he finally married his long time girlfriend. (Because the best hospital in Santa Fe is a catholic one, and they were uptight about her visiting him. That's the story I heard from a mutual friend. I suppose a heart attack is as good a reason as any to marry your partner of 20+ years.)
    posted by Catblack at 2:58 PM on January 14, 2019 [1 favorite]


    It's not so much GRRM's health, but that he has appeared to not actually want to finish the series - and instead just going to cons and write short stories and stuff like Fire & Blood.
    posted by porpoise at 3:22 PM on January 14, 2019 [2 favorites]


    Also, I think it would be kind of funny if after all is said and done, all of the remaining heroes and villains wind up dying accidental or "natural" deaths. Cersei just winds up falling down the stairs to her death. Like, nobody is trying to kill her. She's not running from anybody. She just isn't paying attention, because of course she isn't. The Mountain has a heart attack when he finds Cersei dead at the bottom of the stairs. Tyrion gets Dany drunk, and then she falls off a dragon. Tyrion's liver gives out. Etc.
    posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:28 PM on January 14, 2019 [9 favorites]


    It's not so much GRRM's health, but that he has appeared to not actually want to finish the series

    He doesn't know how or he would have done it already. He got too carried away with characters and non-event backstory stuff because he was making bank and wanted to ride a Wheel of Time-esque money train. He literally has no idea how the story ends because for it to end properly he would have to tie off the billion-and-six loose threads he created for himself.
    posted by turbid dahlia at 3:45 PM on January 14, 2019


    I think he has a general idea how it ends -- who of the major characters lives and dies, who rules what, who is sleeping with whom, how they kill the ice zombies -- but not how to get there, and not what he's going to do with the zillion minor plots and characters.
    posted by jeather at 3:51 PM on January 14, 2019 [3 favorites]


    He's always teased an end. One that will explain why the seasons are so fubared.

    Fwiw, he doesn't seem particularly motivated by money. He's got buckets from HBO already. I think his biggest problem is that he likes complicated scenes and follows that to writing himself into a corner. His usual solution at that point is to fuck off to a totally different part of the world.

    Honestly, I'd hate it a lot more if it didn't just keep delivering interesting things to read. But, yeah it can get frustrating as hell sometimes.
    posted by lumpenprole at 3:55 PM on January 14, 2019 [3 favorites]


    Is GRRM really unhealthy or something? He’s only 70.

    He's not spectacularly unhealthy, but he's 70 and is more or less at the same point (in terms of finishing the series) as he was when he was 60.

    The parallel we're not supposed to make is to Robert Jordan. We're not supposed to make it because 10 years ago a bunch of people got very mad at anyone who even remotely implied that GRRM maybe kinda should start progressing towards finishing the thing he started because RJ was a pretty stark object lesson in what happens if you don't. All that led to was a bunch of blowback about how he's not anyone's bitch, he doesn't owe anyone anything, he's nothing like Robert Jordan, etc.

    But... well... he's writing a giant epic fantasy that's gone on for significantly more books than even he believed (more than twice as many!). The forward plot progress in each book is less than the last. At times when it seems like he should be resolving plot threads, he's opening new ones. He's not in the best of health, but he assures us he's committed to finishing it, no problem.

    Pop quiz: who am I talking about?

    I honestly have zero belief he's ever going to finish the books. I take no joy in it. I'm not gleeful in the comparison. I just think it's the reality.

    On a side note, I have long had a weird suspicion that he may have a problem similar to myself relative to making things. Basically: while the feelings brought about by both making art* and having made art can be strong drivers, getting too much credit for an in-progress work by showing it to people can almost be a disincentive to continue it. It's like I've kinda already gotten the "having made art" part of the reward, even though I haven't actually seen it through. It's why I have a hugely difficult time showing anyone a thing I'm doing until it's done; doing so can just lead me to abandoning it. I can only imagine how that would play out when the thing you're making is a multi-book story.

    * Art in the general sense, not just writing
    posted by tocts at 4:41 PM on January 14, 2019 [6 favorites]


    Let me just say that I have never read the books, and I don’t know much about GRRM outside of what his fans say about him and from what I’ve read on Wikipedia, but some of these assertions seem relentless. I’m asking these questions out of actual curiosity and I am not trying to seem antagonistic.

    It's not so much GRRM's health, but that he has appeared to not actually want to finish the series - and instead just going to cons and write short stories and stuff like Fire & Blood.

    I mean, is there any evidence for this? Or is this just what it is: an “appearance” that he doesn’t want to finish the series? Like, does he do things that make it seem he’s just milking it for money? porpoise I know you didn’t make this particular assertion, but rather turbid dahlia that brought it up. Which brings me to

    He doesn't know how or he would have done it already. He got too carried away with characters and non-event backstory stuff because he was making bank and wanted to ride a Wheel of Time-esque money train. He literally has no idea how the story ends because for it to end properly he would have to tie off the billion-and-six loose threads he created for himself.

    I can see him getting carried away with characters and non-event backstory stuff, that sort of makes sense to me. Has he done this in previous novels and short stories? Is this an aspect of his writing in non-fantasy novels?

    I was also under the impression that he had gigantic manuscripts for these final books, as well as a clear understanding of the ending. He apparently told the showrunners what the ending is and has left it up to them to figure out their own way to it. Otherwise, he has his own ending and it would appear he has a path to it that differs from the show, although he could change it on the way there.

    My last question is, are there any other authors that are scrutinized this heavily? For years I’ve been seeing people online and in real life talk about these same topics. Why is he scrutinized so heavily?
    posted by gucci mane at 4:56 PM on January 14, 2019


    My last question is, are there any other authors that are scrutinized this heavily? For years I’ve been seeing people online and in real life talk about these same topics. Why is he scrutinized so heavily?

    I think because his series of books, which he wasn't finished writing, became a smash hit TV series and now everyone has an opinion about how and when he should finish the last book. It seems to me there's really no excuse to have not finished the last book after what.. 5 years?
    He could have been done with it if he wanted to then the show could've followed the books closely. Im not saying everyone should be on his case about being so slow but he apparently doesn't really care about wrapping up the book series.
    posted by Liquidwolf at 5:06 PM on January 14, 2019 [1 favorite]


    My last question is, are there any other authors that are scrutinized this heavily? For years I’ve been seeing people online and in real life talk about these same topics. Why is he scrutinized so heavily?

    The short answer: yes, other authors have had something like this scrutiny, but his is unique in that it's been in the internet age. The aforementioned Robert Jordan got a lot of flack about similar delays and "it's a trilogy, no a quadrilogy, no a 5-book series, no 7, no ..." stuff, but most of that was before the average reader was online, so mostly it was grumbling in book stores and places fantasy nerds congregated.

    But, then add to this, GRRM has been a particularly extreme example of this trope of "fantasy author who can't seem to bring the story to an end". Tolkein, by way of example, managed to publish the entirety of the Lord of the Rings trilogy in less than 3 years. Even if you go back to when he first published The Hobbit, it's 17 years.

    GRRM meanwhile is coming up on 23 years from first publication, and his gaps between books have been 2 years, 2 years, 5 years, 6 years, and we're now coming up on 8 years and he's still not got the latest out. It starts to look like a kind of publishing Fibonacci sequence, and the longer the delay, the more time there is to fill up discussing why it's delayed.
    posted by tocts at 5:12 PM on January 14, 2019 [7 favorites]


    Arthur Conan Doyle he grew sick of writing Holmes stories and killed him off to a great deal of public outcry, from this article:
    Or so he thought. The public responded with a massive uproar that amazed everybody, especially Doyle. Twenty thousand people canceled their subscriptions to the Strand. Hate mail arrived at the magazine’s editorial offices by the sackload. Thousands of people wrote Doyle directly, begging him to reverse Holmes’s death. Many people took to wearing black armbands in the street, in mourning for Sherlock Holmes. The death of the world’s first consulting detective was taken up by the wire services and reported all over the world as front-page news. Obituaries for Holmes appeared everywhere. Petitions were signed and “Keep Holmes Alive” clubs were formed. Not since the demise of Dickens’ Little Nell had a literary death had such powerful effect right across the whole language area of its readership, and not since then had a fandom made itself so obvious in its grief.
    I think it's useful to keep in mind that neither fandom nor fan "entitlement" (if you want to call it that) is really all that new. Actually, the reaction to Martin not finishing his series seems somewhat tame in comparison.
    posted by codacorolla at 5:20 PM on January 14, 2019 [9 favorites]


    GRRM meanwhile is coming up on 23 years from first publication, and his gaps between books have been 2 years, 2 years, 5 years, 6 years, and we're now coming up on 8 years and he's still not got the latest out. It starts to look like a kind of publishing Fibonacci sequence, and the longer the delay, the more time there is to fill up discussing why it's delayed.

    Ahem.
    posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:44 PM on January 14, 2019 [1 favorite]


    Hang on, is it wight walkers or white walkers? Because wight walkers definitely makes sense.
    posted by triggerfinger at 7:29 PM on January 14, 2019


    I hate it when people enjoy things, so I want to point out that adorable child Lyanna Mormont that you all love so much is actually unbearable and I hope she becomes an ice zombie. (That's it. That's the whole comment.)
    posted by grandiloquiet at 7:30 PM on January 14, 2019 [3 favorites]


    I want that kid from Bear Island on the throne. She’s got sense. At the very least, she’d better not die!

    Lady Lyanna Mormont--long may she reign, and long may her line continue upon the earth--will command the bear army that consumes the superfluous characters. I'd call it a war, but it's really one big ursine smörgåsbord, although one of the lesser Greyjoys does get in a lucky swipe at his eventual consumer, thus giving rise to the legend of Colonel Floppy-Ear.
    posted by Halloween Jack at 7:51 PM on January 14, 2019 [4 favorites]


    Wights are also known as white walkers.
    posted by porpoise at 8:27 PM on January 14, 2019


    White Walkers are the supernatural beings which seem to be some form of magical creatures built out of ice and cold, and which have been held behind The Wall until recently. The wights are the animated dead that they control as their army.

    Or at least, that is my understanding.
    posted by hippybear at 8:52 PM on January 14, 2019 [3 favorites]


    I'm guessing this is a weekly series between now and then? So, Sunday nights new analysis is released?

    Can this be a FanFare thing or can the end of this thread be extended to allow for posting of all of the columns?
    posted by hippybear at 9:51 PM on January 14, 2019


    He apparently told the showrunners what the ending

    The best way to incentivize GRRM to finish the books would be to have the showrunners gleefully disregard his instructions. Bran wakes up after a nightmare about falling...
    posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 12:00 AM on January 15, 2019 [7 favorites]


    We did find out about the origin of the White Walkers in season 6, though it's forgettable due to the Hodor bit that follows. White Walkers are the pale desiccated guys with glowing blue eyes. Wights are the dead that they raise and can control.

    [spoilers]
    Bran has a vision where the Children of the Forest (dryad-like creatures) capture a first man and turn him into the first White Walker - the Night King - by forcing a dragonglass dagger into his heart. The Children were losing a war to the first men, human invaders from Essos across the sea, and created the Night King to fight for them. Of course, they lost control of him, and he turned on them and everybody else. We've also seen the Night King take a baby and turn it into a new White Walker. Winter lasts for variable amounts of years in GoT; the last Long Night thousands of years ago, winter lasted a generation and all Westeros was invaded by the White Walkers from the far North. They were driven back with the use of dragonglass weapons, and imprisoned in the far north behind the Wall, a huge structure of ice and magic built by Bran the Builder and giants. And over millenia passed into myth and children's tales.

    White Walkers couldn't cross beyond the Wall until the Night King kills and reanimates one of Daenery's dragons, which is able to breach the Wall with blue fire, destroying Castle Black in the process. Now they're coming south for the rest of Westeros again, and Winterfell is next. It's unknown what their relationship is with the cold, but there's definitely some kind of connection and they may even be the cause of the long Winters.
    [/spoiler]
    posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 12:27 AM on January 15, 2019 [1 favorite]


    Jon wins the throne by vanquishing the undead with Daenerys' help, unfortunately Daenerys and her dragon die in the battle. Jon waltzes in to Kings' Landing with the help of Tyrion who is promised to be be Hand of the King. Cersei is imprisoned but somehow is able to poison Jon on the eve of her execution. In his last breath, Jon names Samwell his successor. Samwell, freshly enlightened and bearing several ships' worth of books, installs representative democracy naming himself the first president and drafting a constitution with 4 year presidential terms, 2 term limits, 3 week campaigns which are publicly funded. The military is abolished, health care is made free and a welfare state is created which ensures housing, food, and basic dignity while encouraging citizens to pursue their god-given talents and rewarding hard work. Any private corporation that employs over 100 people and turns a profit is turned over to employee ownership. Free schools and universities are established and religion is taxed to fund these educational institutes. Corrupt real estate developers that plot with overseas powers are burned at the stake. Women, minorities from the outer districts, homosexuals, and gender non-conforming people are given specific protections on pain of being burned at the stake. Face-changing and Wildfire are illegal and punishable by death. Tyrion remains in power as chief of staff to the president and Jaime, the only other remaining Lannister publishes his memoir and lives comfortably in Casterly Rock on the profits as a renowned playboy and is careful to never comment on politics.

    Samwell steps down gracefully after his second term after which Brienne of Tarth is elected with Podrick as her running mate. Podrick succeeds her after 2 successful terms. At this point, literature and art are flourishing and no one recalls why the Iron Throne even exists and it is melted down into a symbolic plowshare.

    Little Finger dies in poverty near the end of Samwell's second term after being acquitted of human trafficking on a technicality. Sansa and Arya are important advisors to the president and are later elected to the Westeros Senate to fulfill distinguished careers. Bran becomes a mystic and publishes several pseudoscientific spiritual books that generate a stable following but never amount to much besides his award winning collection of trained crows. The Hound becomes head of security while the Mountain spends his life in and out of prison for drunk and disorderly conduct, dying young after contracting syphillis in prison.

    Dragons are never heard from again, but the elderly of Westeros regale the youth with tales of their bravery despite everyone thinking they're crazy.
    posted by Slarty Bartfast at 1:31 AM on January 15, 2019 [4 favorites]


    I thought Littlefinger was already dead as of last season?
    posted by hippybear at 6:16 AM on January 15, 2019 [1 favorite]


    I can see him getting carried away with characters and non-event backstory stuff, that sort of makes sense to me. Has he done this in previous novels and short stories? Is this an aspect of his writing in non-fantasy novels?

    G.R.R.M himself talked about his difficulties with table setting/getting all the characters in a certain (geographical and emotional) place from which the planned plot developments would make sense. See his comments in interviews about the "Meerenese knot" and the difficulties caused by him deciding to skip a 5 year time jump between the Stark kids getting dispersed all over planetos and leveling up with regard to their special powers. He originally wanted to skip over that part, and only fill in info pertaining to these years as needed in flashbacks. But he figured it wouldn't work after all, and now the alternative apparently isn't working that well either.

    So I'm with those who think the problem is not so much that he doesn't know where he wants to end up but rather that he's no longer quite sure how to best get there. And I respect that, because that stuff is tricky! You can't just work your way down a list of plot points you listed in your first draft; wether tragic reversal, poetic justice or consummated romance - it all falls flat, if there's not the right sort-of build up. Things have to make sense not just logically, but also emotionally, and narratives can take on a bit of a life on their own in that regard, if they go on for long enough. Disregard that and you end up with a How-I-met-your-Mother-ending, sacrificing character growth and emotional resonance to a plot twist that might have worked three seasons ago.

    Or with the show as presented by D&D, which since the departure from the books, has been all pay off and no more build up. Oh sure, in the existing novel Martin has been doing more than enough build-up for stuff like the Stark reunions, or Ramsay's encounter with karma, or the Wall falling, etc. and so far the show has been able to coast on that. But I have seen spoilers for the ending (no, it's nothing anyone has guessed yet) from the source who accurately spoilt the last season, and while they seem plausible enough based on general plot-mechanics, there IMHO hasn't been remotely enough build up in either book or show to make any of those twists work so far. I can see no reason at all to be optimistic that D&D will pull it off over the course of one paltry season, movie-length episodes or not.

    G.R.R.M, at his best, can make a tragic twist feel completely shocking and yet inevitable in retrospect. Sure, who didn't want to throw the book at the wall at the Red Wedding, but on a second-read-through, you really can't say it's out of the blue. He's not that bad at romance either (Jaimie and Brienne forever!). D&D in constrast can't create romantic tension to save their lifes (who really buys into Jon and Dany as a couple?) and their shocking moments feel increasingly gratituous.

    But they will end it, and I will probably watch it, even though it feels more like a chore to me at this point. But closure's nothing to sneeze at, and there's a lesson in that, I guess.

    For what it's worth, I will also gladly read The Winds of Winter, should it ever be published, in whatever truncated form might be available (and although I agree that Martin probably won't finish the series, the chances of that at least aren't so bad; the preview chapters show he has written some part of it at least), and I expect to enjoy that more.
    posted by sohalt at 6:22 AM on January 15, 2019 [5 favorites]


    (who really buys into Jon and Dany as a couple?)

    ME

    I mean, the implementation on the show hasn't been perfect, but I'm on record in the Fanfare threads as enjoying the way that Jon/Dany has been done. Dany's mouth was saying one thing about Jon not bending the knee, but the character's eyes were saying another. And we've seen Jon's thing for women who can easily kill him. So I thought there was a shocking amount of chemistry, especially given where those actors started and what the script gave them to work with.

    although I agree that Martin probably won't finish the series, the chances of that at least aren't so bad

    I mean. Martin's perfectionism is one thing. His lack of internal discipline is another. The inability of his editors to keep him focused is a third.

    But now he's feeling spiteful about a deeply inconsistent show beating him to the punchline of a story where he has been treading water for fourteen years. So instead of finishing Winds of Winter, he takes a commission to write 50,000 words for a children's book and, y'know.

    Turns it into a 700 page codex-style book about the history of the Targaryans.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    posted by joyceanmachine at 7:23 AM on January 15, 2019 [3 favorites]


    [...] especially given where those actors started and what the script gave them to work with.

    But that's kinda my point? Competent actors can sell some shoddy storytelling, but the fact that these two handled it better than one might have expected, is just a credit to them, not D&D.
    posted by sohalt at 7:53 AM on January 15, 2019 [2 favorites]


    > Dany's mouth was saying one thing about Jon not bending the knee, but the character's eyes were saying another.

    The one thing for which I will praise this show unequivocally is the direction and the hardworking cast. Those actors do A LOT with the material.

    I'm not a fan of the material.
    posted by desuetude at 7:56 AM on January 15, 2019 [3 favorites]


    I thought Littlefinger was already dead as of last season?

    A wizard brings him back
    posted by thelonius at 9:19 AM on January 15, 2019 [4 favorites]


    My last question is, are there any other authors that are scrutinized this heavily? For years I’ve been seeing people online and in real life talk about these same topics. Why is he scrutinized so heavily?

    So there's kind of a multi-part problem that explains both why GRRM is scrutinized so heavily, and also why he's probably not going to finish the series, unfortunately.

    GRRM used to be - and often, in other things, still is - the epitome of a working stiff author - someone who has churned out perfectly competent and often good work in a reasonable timeframe. The Dunk and Egg novellas weren't delayed from when he predicted them. The Wild Cards books come out on time. People aren't kept waiting unreasonable amounts of time for his other projects. It is literally, only the A Song of Ice And Fire series - not even the world, but the specific series - that has a problem.

    And he's trying. He's tried. He has clearly been writing chapters, sloggingly, over the past years. But the thing is - it seems really hard for him to get excited about the series. When you see him at cons, reading the previews of the new chapters, (and I have), he doesn't seem even that enthused about the material that everyone in the audience is clearly thrilled for.

    And I do think that comes from a few specific places:

    First and foremost, because when he first started writing the series, he specifically tried to write all the things he had wanted to write as a screenwriter for years, but that couldn't work on a screen. Sprawling casts with hundreds of characters! Intense fight scenes that would cost the earth to put on! Walls hundreds of feet high, and fantastical dragons of terror and death. And he did a really good job! Those hundreds of characters weave their way in and out and he's found a way to make them important. Minor characters have interesting backstories. Patchface! Willas Tyrell! Septa Lemore! The dispersed Sand Snakes! Arianne Martell, holy fuck. Edric Dayne! All sorts of characters who have been woven together to resolve issues, that can't happen on the show because those characters are gone. So when the show resolves plot threads that would have involved minor characters, it does so in the most ham handed fucking way possible. So it's not just that spoilers are happening, it's that clumsy resolvings of intricate plot threads are happening, in such a way that lots of people are going to think that's the way it is.

    Like - does Sansa actually marry Ramsay Bolton, or does she marry Harry the Heir after a convenient tragedy happens to Lord Robert, but Ramsay Bolton vs Sansa makes for much better TV? Why are those troops of the Vale there in the North?

    But worse, there's potentially a reason for it all - this article makes a good argument that where the story GRRM was interested in telling was one of so-called 'epic heroes' only being the result of a good deal of behind-the-scenes manipulation by key players with no heroism whatsoever in their veins, that the story D&D are telling is in fact one about epic heroes that need to overcome that political manipulation. So it's not just that Game of Thrones is 'spoiling' the books, the Game of Thrones TV show is essentially working really hard to tell the exact opposite of the story that GRRM wanted to write.

    And in some cases, the actors affect the story. GRRM has talked about how he has seen certain characters on screen and it has affected how he wrote them in his books (Osha, most notably). And my personal belief is that Maisie Williams having started acting as a child for this story is fucking up how GRRM sees the Arya plotline, which GRRM originally intended to involve romances that could have worked on paper, but could never work when they would have to play out on a screen with adult actors that had watched the actress grow from a child.

    And that's not even addressing GRRM's statement that when he knows where something is going definitively, he loses all interest in writing it.
    posted by corb at 10:37 AM on January 15, 2019 [6 favorites]


    And that's not even addressing GRRM's statement that when he knows where something is going definitively, he loses all interest in writing it.

    That would really explain everything WRT the delays.
    posted by Halloween Jack at 2:53 PM on January 15, 2019


    It's amazing how quickly this show went from deconstruction of boring fantasy tropes, to avid reinforcement of them.

    I was just talking to a friend about how the first season of this show was entirely devoted to a character unraveling a murder mystery (and a related parentage mystery) against a backdrop of royal court intrigue, while the last season was all spectacular battles and zombie armies and magic time travel and DRAGONS and characters traveling halfway across the world between one scene and the next.

    Don’t get me wrong, I still love the show and am eager to watch the new season, but yeah, it’s a very different show now than from where it started.
    posted by ejs at 7:55 PM on January 15, 2019 [1 favorite]


    The Lord Of The Rings starts out with a birthday party in a rural country village and ends with the Ultimate Evil Will being defeated in a volcano while armies march against one another.

    All stories become very different from where they start. Even Groundhog's Day, and that's literally the same thing happening over and over.

    Otherwise, they aren't stories. They're lyric poems, at best.
    posted by hippybear at 8:25 PM on January 15, 2019 [1 favorite]


    Bran wakes up after a nightmare about falling...

    And finds that he has become two feet taller overnight.
    posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:29 PM on January 15, 2019 [1 favorite]


    While it's plainly obvious that most narratives imply a change in conditions of the plot over time, it isn't equally obvious that they have to get mind-numbingly bad as a result.
    posted by codacorolla at 9:47 PM on January 15, 2019 [3 favorites]


    I do admit, I've found the post-books parts of the TV show to be way more typical fantasy plot formulaic than I expect the series to be. But we've only one more season so even if it ends in pain, the pain will be over soon.
    posted by hippybear at 9:51 PM on January 15, 2019 [1 favorite]


    I thought Littlefinger was already dead as of last season?

    A wizard brings him back


    Fire God, duh.
    posted by Slarty Bartfast at 10:52 PM on January 15, 2019


    I honestly have zero belief he's ever going to finish the books. I take no joy in it. I'm not gleeful in the comparison. I just think it's the reality.

    So when Martin uh... is sent off to a farm. Where he can frolic and play with other authors all day. Shut up.

    Anyway, Brandon Sanderson takes over the writing. And finishes all of it in 300 pages in about two months. Using a larger font. Of course all the sex scenes will somehow be replaced by hearty handshakes...
    posted by happyroach at 9:15 AM on January 17, 2019 [1 favorite]






    Oh man, those writeups are good, but their hope that Dany marry Gendry reminds me of when I wanted Arya to...but she’s moved so, so far past that. I do want her to marry someone, someone fierce and brave, but...who is there? Tormund Giantsbane likes a different kind of woman, and I genuinely can’t think of anyone else worthy.
    posted by corb at 7:49 PM on January 23, 2019




    I would not be surprised to see Sansa and Tyrion marry, but in a long distance relation ship where she's remains the head stark at Winterfell and remains in Kings Landing as advisor or back at the Wall as Lord Commander (with a few changed rules obviously).
    posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:56 AM on January 28, 2019


    Aren't they already married in a long distance relationship?
    posted by ActingTheGoat at 3:25 PM on January 28, 2019


    A quick google suggests, yes they are.
    posted by hippybear at 9:59 PM on January 28, 2019


    Doesn’t sound like it. Sansa and Tyerion were never consummated, so they’re marriage was official legally.
    posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:10 AM on February 1, 2019




    Goddamn Lena Headey acts the hell outta Cersei and has since the beginning. One of my favorite scenes is an early scene between her an Robert Bartheon, where they discuss their marriage and how he never loved her and never could have. Just brilliant stuff and Headey has been consistently so with the character.
    posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:56 AM on February 4, 2019 [4 favorites]


    Lena Headey acts the hell outta Cersei and has since the beginning

    Whenever somebody tries to sell me on the books clearly being superior to the series, I basically end up yelling LENA HEADEY LENA HEADEY LENA HEADEY over and over.

    I mean, yeah, Dinklage has done well, but Tyrion was always going to be an interesting character. The actors for Danerys and the various Stark kids have grown into their roles, but it was rough going for most of them in the beginning. Headey has been excellent from the beginning with deeply flawed material.
    posted by joyceanmachine at 8:04 AM on February 4, 2019 [2 favorites]


    Fifth article in series, on Jaime Lannister.

    The series will continue each Sunday but this thread will close this week.
    posted by hippybear at 12:43 PM on February 10, 2019


    « Older Renewable Energy To Remodel World Dominance...   |   Space-filling curves the hard way Newer »


    This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments