The Future Is Female!
February 2, 2019 3:56 PM Subscribe
A History of Cyborg Sex, 2018–73 - "Sex with robots was much safer than sex with actual men—and better than anything women had previously experienced."
also btw...
The History of Women in Sci-Fi Isn't What You Think (via)
also btw...
The History of Women in Sci-Fi Isn't What You Think (via)
“[Campbell] was going on and on about how women can’t write science fiction, and [Merril] said, ‘Well, I bet I could write a science fiction story you’d buy,’ and he said, ‘I don’t think that’s going to happen,’ and she said, ‘I bet I could write a story you’ll buy, and you’ll beg me for more.’ … So she wrote [‘That Only a Mother’], and Campbell loved the story. He bought it from her, and he was like, ‘Oh my gosh. You were right, I was wrong. This is an amazing story. I want more from you.’ So she sent him her next story, which was a space colonization story—good standard science fiction fare—and he rejected it because he said, ‘There are no mothers in it. I don’t really want this from you. You should be writing more about mothers.'”
“Given that there were no robot wives that could conceive, the imperatives were clear, at least to the men who wanted children. Actual men were reduced to begging.”
To your first question, it sounds like men didn’t have the option of egg donors, or at the very least still had to rely on women to carry children if they wanted one, so the balance of power there seems to be on the female side.
posted by Jubey at 5:20 PM on February 2, 2019 [2 favorites]
To your first question, it sounds like men didn’t have the option of egg donors, or at the very least still had to rely on women to carry children if they wanted one, so the balance of power there seems to be on the female side.
posted by Jubey at 5:20 PM on February 2, 2019 [2 favorites]
Well yeah, I caught that part, I guess my question is why wouldn’t there be egg donors and surrogate mothers in this future. Those things are business transactions and don’t seem to fall under the umbrella of unsafe and unsatisfying interactions with organic men that the cyborgs replaces.
posted by ejs at 6:06 PM on February 2, 2019
posted by ejs at 6:06 PM on February 2, 2019
If the cyborgs (or robots) were just machines then it’s not sex just masturbation. If the cyborgs are sentient then you have issues with consent.
posted by um at 6:07 PM on February 2, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by um at 6:07 PM on February 2, 2019 [2 favorites]
Since when is there anything wrong with masturbation? Since when is masturbation not sex?
Most sex is "just" masturbation.
posted by goinWhereTheClimateSuitsMyClothes at 6:42 PM on February 2, 2019 [4 favorites]
Most sex is "just" masturbation.
posted by goinWhereTheClimateSuitsMyClothes at 6:42 PM on February 2, 2019 [4 favorites]
I guess my question is why wouldn’t there be egg donors and surrogate mothers in this future
Because its premise is that men don't get to own women's bodies.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:46 PM on February 2, 2019 [18 favorites]
Because its premise is that men don't get to own women's bodies.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:46 PM on February 2, 2019 [18 favorites]
Understood, but would women not willingly sell their reproductive services? The essay is about the end of patriarchy, but very much not about the end of capitalism.
posted by ejs at 7:04 PM on February 2, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by ejs at 7:04 PM on February 2, 2019 [3 favorites]
I think you're fundamentally mistaking the baseline purpose of the piece, which is not to be a deep sociological analysis exploring all consequences of the following technological change.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:28 PM on February 2, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:28 PM on February 2, 2019 [7 favorites]
It would be altogether a different story, but in a world where "[g]ender went beyond fluidity to gaseous if not plasmatic", but the ability to reproduce still depends on having certain plumbing, what do you DO when little Scoby comes home from school, crying, because Dibs told them THEY could never make a baby in their belly. (I guess the answer is Scoby's cyborg comforts them, since we've given up childrearing to the 'bots; and Dibs's tells them why what they did is emphatically NOT okay)
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 7:50 PM on February 2, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 7:50 PM on February 2, 2019 [2 favorites]
May I gently suggest we do more than ponder "what about the fathers" (?) and "what did the robots feel" and "were they exploited".
For one thing, I see no mention of the 'wants and needs' or self-consciousness of these cyborgs. "Cyborgs" are clearly in the story as an embodied form of these sexual technologies. The retrospective surface-level meaning of the piece is regarding humans creating/interacting with technology, not so much an illustration of slavery/exploitation/nonconsent. I don't think, given more word count or narrative time, that the author is preparing to pull a "sexbots are slaves!" on us.
I found this whole thing wildly entertaining! Check out this from the second 'phase':
>While it is difficult to see now, students of history must understand that, until the 2050s, men were considered to be violent. . . . people actually believed that physical muscle strength served as a defense from our own sense of puny helplessness in an uncertain world.
I love it! That's some good shit right there! And the concluding 'phase' is the crux of the history. At the risk of spoiling, I gotta quote it:
>. . . a world in which everyone is well fucked and cherished in the way they want. Gender, finally, is truly meaningless. And while inequalities still exist, power imbalances have been stripped of their tendency toward domination. . . . Society finally concluded that everyone deserves good sex as part of a good life, but not necessarily with each other. . . . Now that we don’t expect humans—let alone a particular gender—to fill that role, our interactions with other have improved.
That's some golden-rule-quality moralizing and I like it. "Not necessarily with each other." There's your answer about the robot exploitation, at least; the robots are not persons in this history, just the tools (the extensions) of women and men.
I find her ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to her newsletter, etc.
posted by panhopticon at 8:28 PM on February 2, 2019 [10 favorites]
For one thing, I see no mention of the 'wants and needs' or self-consciousness of these cyborgs. "Cyborgs" are clearly in the story as an embodied form of these sexual technologies. The retrospective surface-level meaning of the piece is regarding humans creating/interacting with technology, not so much an illustration of slavery/exploitation/nonconsent. I don't think, given more word count or narrative time, that the author is preparing to pull a "sexbots are slaves!" on us.
I found this whole thing wildly entertaining! Check out this from the second 'phase':
>While it is difficult to see now, students of history must understand that, until the 2050s, men were considered to be violent. . . . people actually believed that physical muscle strength served as a defense from our own sense of puny helplessness in an uncertain world.
I love it! That's some good shit right there! And the concluding 'phase' is the crux of the history. At the risk of spoiling, I gotta quote it:
>. . . a world in which everyone is well fucked and cherished in the way they want. Gender, finally, is truly meaningless. And while inequalities still exist, power imbalances have been stripped of their tendency toward domination. . . . Society finally concluded that everyone deserves good sex as part of a good life, but not necessarily with each other. . . . Now that we don’t expect humans—let alone a particular gender—to fill that role, our interactions with other have improved.
That's some golden-rule-quality moralizing and I like it. "Not necessarily with each other." There's your answer about the robot exploitation, at least; the robots are not persons in this history, just the tools (the extensions) of women and men.
I find her ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to her newsletter, etc.
posted by panhopticon at 8:28 PM on February 2, 2019 [10 favorites]
This was really great. Breezy and fun for what's essentially a sci-fi exposition dump. Not easy to do.
posted by es_de_bah at 10:29 PM on February 2, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by es_de_bah at 10:29 PM on February 2, 2019 [3 favorites]
Written by Cathy O'Neil. (previously).
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:03 AM on February 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:03 AM on February 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
Is this the right place to share that I read The Silver Metal Lover at juuust the right age?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:54 AM on February 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:54 AM on February 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
Robosexuality in comics has a fairly long and sometimes odd history, with the Vision and Scarlet Witch being a canon couple, off and on, for decades. More recently, the woman- and LGBTQ-friendly comics publisher Iron Circus did an installment of their Smut Peddler anthology, SEX MACHINE, that was a lot of fun.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:10 AM on February 3, 2019
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:10 AM on February 3, 2019
Is this the right place to share that I read The Silver Metal Lover at juuust the right age?
Well, I blowed up that link real good. Here's a different one, with an excerpt.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:23 AM on February 3, 2019
Well, I blowed up that link real good. Here's a different one, with an excerpt.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:23 AM on February 3, 2019
I see no mention of the 'wants and needs' or self-consciousness of these cyborgs.
yea, i saw it more about the (future) evolution of sex toys, like from cf. the history of sex toys: the world's first dildos* to, say: Withdrawn CES award for sex toy prompts gender bias allegations (viz. Women's toys too vulgar for the #CES?)
I find her ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to her newsletter, etc.
o'neil used to have one :P but still blogs!
---
*"From unripe bananas to dried camel dung coated in resin - people in ancient Greece and Egypt turned out to be creative in finding sexual aids. Alternative materials used to carve dildos included stone, leather or wood. The world's first (discovered) dildo was found in Germany and dates back 28,000 years. The 20 cm long stone object was not only used as a sex toy, but also to ignite fire."
posted by kliuless at 11:26 AM on February 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
yea, i saw it more about the (future) evolution of sex toys, like from cf. the history of sex toys: the world's first dildos* to, say: Withdrawn CES award for sex toy prompts gender bias allegations (viz. Women's toys too vulgar for the #CES?)
I find her ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to her newsletter, etc.
o'neil used to have one :P but still blogs!
---
*"From unripe bananas to dried camel dung coated in resin - people in ancient Greece and Egypt turned out to be creative in finding sexual aids. Alternative materials used to carve dildos included stone, leather or wood. The world's first (discovered) dildo was found in Germany and dates back 28,000 years. The 20 cm long stone object was not only used as a sex toy, but also to ignite fire."
posted by kliuless at 11:26 AM on February 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
The idea that, in the future, there won't be a large group of people without the means to indulge in the cyborg sex of the wealthy few, marks this a truly science fiction.
posted by cx at 12:40 PM on February 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by cx at 12:40 PM on February 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
For one thing, I see no mention of the 'wants and needs' or self-consciousness of these cyborgs. "Cyborgs" are clearly in the story as an embodied form of these sexual technologies. The retrospective surface-level meaning of the piece is regarding humans creating/interacting with technology, not so much an illustration of slavery/exploitation/nonconsent. I don't think, given more word count or narrative time, that the author is preparing to pull a "sexbots are slaves!" on us.
Easy. Just don’t program their AI to develop self-consciousness. It can’t just grow out nowhere. Neurologists still have no clue what it is and how humans develop it so I wager it will be quite a while before we can program a nueral network to learn to develop it. Whether or not this is ethical IDK but robots are still machines regardless and I think that’s the...”benefit” of having them as sex partners.
posted by Young Kullervo at 12:45 PM on February 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Easy. Just don’t program their AI to develop self-consciousness. It can’t just grow out nowhere. Neurologists still have no clue what it is and how humans develop it so I wager it will be quite a while before we can program a nueral network to learn to develop it. Whether or not this is ethical IDK but robots are still machines regardless and I think that’s the...”benefit” of having them as sex partners.
posted by Young Kullervo at 12:45 PM on February 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
"algorithms with benefits"
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 1:59 PM on February 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 1:59 PM on February 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
I ordered The Future Is Female! from Library of America (which is the subject of the second link) and it’s fabulous. Unfortunately I have been obligated to read other books so I’ve only read the first story, but I still heartily recommend the collection.
posted by Kattullus at 3:16 AM on February 4, 2019
posted by Kattullus at 3:16 AM on February 4, 2019
Just don’t program their AI to develop self-consciousness. It can’t just grow out nowhere. Neurologists still have no clue what it is and how humans develop it so I wager it will be quite a while before we can program a nueral network to learn to develop it.
This seems a lot like the quandary of how to avoid a man one knows nothing about.
posted by um at 4:54 AM on February 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
This seems a lot like the quandary of how to avoid a man one knows nothing about.
posted by um at 4:54 AM on February 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
I just have a difficult time believing machines will just spontaneously develop self-awareness and self-consciousness but my knowledge of the evolutionary potential of unsupervised machine learning and AI is very surface level. There is always a missing link between "programmed to learn to do X" and "organically self-aware enough to do X or Y or Z independently" that is never really explained. I don't think the goal of AI is to make it more "human". If anything, it is to surpass the limitations of humanity, which is what makes it potentially terrifying if we lose the ability to control it. Self-consciousness is usually considered a limitation because it means we question our existence and what we are told about our existence and our purpose.
If anyone can recommend a scientifically accurate discussion of how it might be possible with the current state of things I'd more than love to read it.
posted by Young Kullervo at 5:08 AM on February 4, 2019
If anyone can recommend a scientifically accurate discussion of how it might be possible with the current state of things I'd more than love to read it.
posted by Young Kullervo at 5:08 AM on February 4, 2019
"Everyone, including men, had access to their own sex robots, which had been trained by tailored porn algorithms to give mind-blowing sexual experiences."
I strongly suspect an AI trained on porn algorithms would look more like the dystopia of Altered Carbon than Foz Meadows's Mnemosyne. Cuckold threesomes, choking, and step-siblings for everyone!
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 11:10 AM on February 4, 2019
I strongly suspect an AI trained on porn algorithms would look more like the dystopia of Altered Carbon than Foz Meadows's Mnemosyne. Cuckold threesomes, choking, and step-siblings for everyone!
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 11:10 AM on February 4, 2019
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I presume men who wanted children also had the option to order eggs supplied by egg donors?
The term “cyborg” is used throughout, but I assume it wasn’t intended in the usual way of a human-robot hybrid? They’re just robots, right?
So did the robots ever get civil rights? Or was their complete lack of rights what made sextopia possible?
posted by ejs at 4:48 PM on February 2, 2019 [2 favorites]