In ye good ole dayes of yore circa 2011
February 3, 2019 5:37 AM Subscribe
When was the last time you thought of the internet as a weird and wonderful place?
Single link engadget: How sex censorship killed the internet we love.
Also possibly the only paragraph in the piece that makes an argument - the vast, vast majority of the piece is a recitation of datapoints.
Sex is used as a synedoche for free speech but the piece never actually bothers making the argument that this is valid. Clay Shirky's venerable piece A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy argues that it's been observed that when social groups degenerate, one of the first things to happen is a sharp rise in crude sex talk. If that's true, then any appearance of sex on the internet could either be humans connecting on a deep, comfortable level or shit-flinging bonobos uninterested in any higher-order thought, and the piece assumes only one is true and is dismayed that anyone could see it otherwise.
posted by Merus at 6:20 AM on February 3, 2019 [10 favorites]
Sex is used as a synedoche for free speech but the piece never actually bothers making the argument that this is valid. Clay Shirky's venerable piece A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy argues that it's been observed that when social groups degenerate, one of the first things to happen is a sharp rise in crude sex talk. If that's true, then any appearance of sex on the internet could either be humans connecting on a deep, comfortable level or shit-flinging bonobos uninterested in any higher-order thought, and the piece assumes only one is true and is dismayed that anyone could see it otherwise.
posted by Merus at 6:20 AM on February 3, 2019 [10 favorites]
But then you're using 'crude sex talk' as a synedoche for any sexual expression on the internet? This isn't about "lockeroom banter", all forms of sexual content, including tasteful ones, have disappeared en masse.
posted by hwyengr at 6:26 AM on February 3, 2019 [11 favorites]
posted by hwyengr at 6:26 AM on February 3, 2019 [11 favorites]
"female presenting nipples" =/= "crude sex talk"
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:31 AM on February 3, 2019 [23 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:31 AM on February 3, 2019 [23 favorites]
the vast, vast majority of the piece is a recitation of datapoints.
You say that as if it is something bad.
For me it is those data points which make this an interesting article for persons like myself maybe not completely steeped in online mores.
Of course this being the internet your view may well differ in which case a slightly better argument maybe needed.
posted by adamvasco at 6:35 AM on February 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
You say that as if it is something bad.
For me it is those data points which make this an interesting article for persons like myself maybe not completely steeped in online mores.
Of course this being the internet your view may well differ in which case a slightly better argument maybe needed.
posted by adamvasco at 6:35 AM on February 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
We traded an internet where you controlled your own content but any random link could take you to goatse for a porn-free walled garden where any random link could be generated by Russian trolls.
I guess what I'm saying is the internet has always been full of assholes.
posted by gwint at 7:04 AM on February 3, 2019 [26 favorites]
I guess what I'm saying is the internet has always been full of assholes.
posted by gwint at 7:04 AM on February 3, 2019 [26 favorites]
all forms of sexual content, including tasteful ones, have disappeared en masse
What?
posted by slater at 7:12 AM on February 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
What?
posted by slater at 7:12 AM on February 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
I liked this piece and it is something I have been noticing. Mainstream porn is easier to find than ever (even, or especially, if you aren't looking for it), but I less and less often stumble upon insightful articles or someone's niche collection/exhibition of their particular thing. That is a loss, especially for some of the groups the article discusses (eg sex workers), but also for anyone who enjoys reading something more explicit than a New Yorker article.
I hope the pendulum swings back towards more spaces for niche interests at some point. It's also on me to adjust where I go online and how I browse to increase my chances of finding new things.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:15 AM on February 3, 2019 [10 favorites]
I hope the pendulum swings back towards more spaces for niche interests at some point. It's also on me to adjust where I go online and how I browse to increase my chances of finding new things.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:15 AM on February 3, 2019 [10 favorites]
all forms of sexual content, including tasteful ones, have disappeared en masse
What?
An unprecedented wave of deplatforming, deletion, and search engine manipulation has marginalized and/or destroyed mass swathes of consensual, non-exploitative sexual content, community, and work that runs the gamut from ostensibly tasteful to less so. "All" in this sense means "broad" and not "comprehensive"; obviously there's still sex on the Internet, but not as it seemed there would be even a decade ago.
The article covers this in detail.
posted by a series of tube socks at 7:29 AM on February 3, 2019 [28 favorites]
What?
An unprecedented wave of deplatforming, deletion, and search engine manipulation has marginalized and/or destroyed mass swathes of consensual, non-exploitative sexual content, community, and work that runs the gamut from ostensibly tasteful to less so. "All" in this sense means "broad" and not "comprehensive"; obviously there's still sex on the Internet, but not as it seemed there would be even a decade ago.
The article covers this in detail.
posted by a series of tube socks at 7:29 AM on February 3, 2019 [28 favorites]
I went into the article feeling skeptical, but found it convincing.
It seems straightforward to me that commercialization of the internet would lead to censorship or even just the marginalization of quirky or independent content. But the persistence of hate content is kind of surprising because commercialization should also target that. I guess it has started happening and maybe it is just not fast enough.
posted by snofoam at 7:30 AM on February 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
It seems straightforward to me that commercialization of the internet would lead to censorship or even just the marginalization of quirky or independent content. But the persistence of hate content is kind of surprising because commercialization should also target that. I guess it has started happening and maybe it is just not fast enough.
posted by snofoam at 7:30 AM on February 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
I'm really concerned about this, especially as it impacts queer spaces. So much of queer sexual expression is lost with Tumblr, and even a gay hookup app has banned profile photos showing certain underwear or posed in a shower. The direct result of policies like FOSTA/SESTA and megacorps like Apple and Google enforcing family friendliness on everything they distribute is that our spaces and our communities being policed and erased. It's really scary.
posted by yellowbinder at 7:31 AM on February 3, 2019 [11 favorites]
posted by yellowbinder at 7:31 AM on February 3, 2019 [11 favorites]
"All" in this sense means "broad" and not "comprehensive"
oic, sorry! not enough caffeine yet
posted by slater at 7:42 AM on February 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
oic, sorry! not enough caffeine yet
posted by slater at 7:42 AM on February 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
No worries! It's a great and harrowing article, and the path forward is deeply unclear.
posted by a series of tube socks at 7:44 AM on February 3, 2019
posted by a series of tube socks at 7:44 AM on February 3, 2019
TFW someone you know brings up a search engine and instinctively goes to Bing instead of Google and you exchange a look. Some of you know what I'm talking about.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:47 AM on February 3, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:47 AM on February 3, 2019 [9 favorites]
I was skeptical but then I realized the article is describing things that have really mostly happened in the last 12-18 months. She has a point. Change can happen fast.
(That a piece about sex-related censorship is authored by Violet Blue is, well, whatever.)
posted by Wretch729 at 7:48 AM on February 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
(That a piece about sex-related censorship is authored by Violet Blue is, well, whatever.)
posted by Wretch729 at 7:48 AM on February 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
the vast, vast majority of the piece is a recitation of datapoints.
You say that as if it is something bad.
Agreed. This paragraph struck me as incisive with regard to how all errors are ultimately human errors, and in the case of porn etc, oft driven by unexamined puritanism not just within ourselves individually, but grounded deep within the culture (western, that is):
In 1997, Ann Powers wrote an essay called "In Defense of Nasty Art." It took progressives to task for not defending rap music because it was "obscene" and sexually graphic. Powers puts it mildly when she states, "Their apprehension makes the fight to preserve freedom of expression seem hollow." This is an old problem. So it's no surprise that the same websites forbidding, banning, and blocking "sexually suggestive" art content also claim to care about free speech.
Good piece.
posted by philip-random at 8:51 AM on February 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
You say that as if it is something bad.
Agreed. This paragraph struck me as incisive with regard to how all errors are ultimately human errors, and in the case of porn etc, oft driven by unexamined puritanism not just within ourselves individually, but grounded deep within the culture (western, that is):
In 1997, Ann Powers wrote an essay called "In Defense of Nasty Art." It took progressives to task for not defending rap music because it was "obscene" and sexually graphic. Powers puts it mildly when she states, "Their apprehension makes the fight to preserve freedom of expression seem hollow." This is an old problem. So it's no surprise that the same websites forbidding, banning, and blocking "sexually suggestive" art content also claim to care about free speech.
Good piece.
posted by philip-random at 8:51 AM on February 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
In the case of Tumblr I think this shows the limitations of automation to moderate online spaces.
Tumblr gets 30 million blog posts per DAY, it would take something like 40,000 moderators to check everything manually and that would involve a wage bill > $1 billion per year which is greater than the entire company valuation.
When the child porn issue was discovered by Apple, Tumblr had to do something, automatically detecting nudity was the only tool they had in the box and so thats what they are using.
Image recognition is not yet at the stage where is can recognise human ages, hell it can't reliably detect the difference between human skin and ancient fossils, so they chose to just ban everything.
posted by Lanark at 8:58 AM on February 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
Tumblr gets 30 million blog posts per DAY, it would take something like 40,000 moderators to check everything manually and that would involve a wage bill > $1 billion per year which is greater than the entire company valuation.
When the child porn issue was discovered by Apple, Tumblr had to do something, automatically detecting nudity was the only tool they had in the box and so thats what they are using.
Image recognition is not yet at the stage where is can recognise human ages, hell it can't reliably detect the difference between human skin and ancient fossils, so they chose to just ban everything.
posted by Lanark at 8:58 AM on February 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
In the case of Tumblr I think this shows the limitations of automation to moderate online spaces
...when those online spaces have an advertising based business model.
posted by PMdixon at 9:07 AM on February 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
...when those online spaces have an advertising based business model.
posted by PMdixon at 9:07 AM on February 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
...when those online spaces have an advertising based business model
Or any business model. If you were a subscription service, automation is still inadequate for moderation.
posted by snofoam at 9:23 AM on February 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Or any business model. If you were a subscription service, automation is still inadequate for moderation.
posted by snofoam at 9:23 AM on February 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
When the child porn issue was discovered by Apple, Tumblr had to do something, automatically detecting nudity was the only tool they had in the box and so thats what they are using.
I think platforms should have responsibilities for content they host, like policies against hate speech and certainly child porn. But child porn is also a law enforcement issue. Is it so widespread that tumblr should be policing it instead of police?
posted by snofoam at 9:33 AM on February 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
I think platforms should have responsibilities for content they host, like policies against hate speech and certainly child porn. But child porn is also a law enforcement issue. Is it so widespread that tumblr should be policing it instead of police?
posted by snofoam at 9:33 AM on February 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
Could someone explain why commerce leads to puritanism, because I really, truly, honestly don't understand it. Businesses used to say "sex sells", "the customer is always right" and "if they buy it, I will sell it", but now they have become moralists and decide that we can't have what we want?
posted by Termite at 9:56 AM on February 3, 2019
posted by Termite at 9:56 AM on February 3, 2019
Trying to automatically detect nudity was not the only tool tumblr used. They also removed tags from search that they thought would be adult content like NSFW and BDSM, and also Harlots (the tag for the tv show which has since been restored). They also changed what showed up in the tags and posts with links don't seem to show up anymore. I hope they managed to take care of the child porn because I've had more porn bot followers since the adult content ban than before.
posted by oneear at 9:59 AM on February 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by oneear at 9:59 AM on February 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Businesses used to say "sex sells", "the customer is always right" and "if they buy it, I will sell it", but now they have become moralists and decide that we can't have what we want?
years ago, I was editor of a small local free music (etc) mag that was having trouble reaching readers. We initiated a series of deliberately provocative theme issues that weren't really that provocative (ie: more about challenging stuff than truly being that challenging stuff), but nevertheless, we increased our reach markedly. People were suddenly picking us up en masse. Except meanwhile our ad sales went down. Because many of our regular advertisers, mostly small businesses, had issues with our new direction.
Lesson learned. There are way more moralists out there than we like to think.
posted by philip-random at 10:06 AM on February 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
years ago, I was editor of a small local free music (etc) mag that was having trouble reaching readers. We initiated a series of deliberately provocative theme issues that weren't really that provocative (ie: more about challenging stuff than truly being that challenging stuff), but nevertheless, we increased our reach markedly. People were suddenly picking us up en masse. Except meanwhile our ad sales went down. Because many of our regular advertisers, mostly small businesses, had issues with our new direction.
Lesson learned. There are way more moralists out there than we like to think.
posted by philip-random at 10:06 AM on February 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
I don’t. What are you referring to?
Google sucks for porn now
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:12 AM on February 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Google sucks for porn now
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:12 AM on February 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Yuuuup.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:35 AM on February 3, 2019
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:35 AM on February 3, 2019
Lesson learned. There are way more moralists out there than we like to think.
Or maybe the lesson is that people who buy ads are uncreative little cowards, who are more afraid of losing one single puritan customer, than they are interested in attracting a bunch of tolerant ones?
posted by Termite at 11:27 AM on February 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
Or maybe the lesson is that people who buy ads are uncreative little cowards, who are more afraid of losing one single puritan customer, than they are interested in attracting a bunch of tolerant ones?
posted by Termite at 11:27 AM on February 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
My latest half-baked obsession has been thinking about a people-focused economy, where jobs are a primary goal. So... Tumblr is struggling because they can’t moderate everything. Hire more people to moderate! Capitalism demands unrealistic rates of growth. Instead of maximizing profit margins, set realistic expectations of upkeep costs.
I know it’s a whole lot more complicated than that, and my point isn’t to launch a whole thing about the systematic changes necessary for such a model. I know it’s not possible in the real world. I just like thinking about it in these terms because it means thinking about our online spaces differently.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 2:53 PM on February 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
I know it’s a whole lot more complicated than that, and my point isn’t to launch a whole thing about the systematic changes necessary for such a model. I know it’s not possible in the real world. I just like thinking about it in these terms because it means thinking about our online spaces differently.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 2:53 PM on February 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
> It seems straightforward to me that commercialization of the internet would lead to censorship or even just the marginalization of quirky or independent content. But the persistence of hate content is kind of surprising because commercialization should also target that.
Nipples and genitals are hard to algorithmically detect, but hate content is much harder. It's also much easier to introduce a new hate symbol like Pepe or the number 14 or the sort-of-ironic OK gesture than it is to create a new class of sexy imagery.
You also have the problem that lots of people disagree where hate speech begins and legitimate discourse ends, and some of them will happily stir up trouble for your platform. People also argue over what constitutes pornography, but a lot of people also just don't want to see any nudity, so sites don't really have to get into the weeds of what's porn and what's an artful nude photo.
posted by smelendez at 6:21 PM on February 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Nipples and genitals are hard to algorithmically detect, but hate content is much harder. It's also much easier to introduce a new hate symbol like Pepe or the number 14 or the sort-of-ironic OK gesture than it is to create a new class of sexy imagery.
You also have the problem that lots of people disagree where hate speech begins and legitimate discourse ends, and some of them will happily stir up trouble for your platform. People also argue over what constitutes pornography, but a lot of people also just don't want to see any nudity, so sites don't really have to get into the weeds of what's porn and what's an artful nude photo.
posted by smelendez at 6:21 PM on February 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Termite: "Could someone explain why commerce leads to puritanism,"
Because companies are terrified of being boycotted or even being controversial.
Consumers in general have been trending non-controversial. See the proliferation of grey and beige cars.
I'm hoping this is a side effect of dominate demographics that will ease and not a result of economic uncertainty which I don't see going away.
posted by Mitheral at 4:34 AM on February 4, 2019
Because companies are terrified of being boycotted or even being controversial.
Consumers in general have been trending non-controversial. See the proliferation of grey and beige cars.
I'm hoping this is a side effect of dominate demographics that will ease and not a result of economic uncertainty which I don't see going away.
posted by Mitheral at 4:34 AM on February 4, 2019
It’s really easy to see how this kind of censorship reinforces the heteronormative masculine narrative of sex. Porn for getting off is still easy to find. Of all stripes! I’m not saying that all porn is straight. But it does tend to be made for the eyes of white, straight men. And that’s the problem- the only sexual content that is easy to get to is religated to the area that is a product and that’s reinforcing a social narrative about men being the pursuers and consumers of sex. And only a certain type of masculinity/man. Sex can be enjoyed, but only in this very narrow slice. There might be millions of ways of doing sex represented, but it’s isolated from connecting as a human being where sex is part of who we are. It’s walled off from the rest of life, and essentially from self.
Even where women are depicted enjoying themselves in most readily porn, it’s in the service of the men they are with, not as being their own sexual persons.
The content that is disappearing is the content that is expression of sexuality that isn’t the heteronormative view of sex, and silences women and the queer community. It also punishes straight men who don’t hold the rigidly held compartmentalized masculinity that readily available porn promotes.
I met a philosophy professor this past summer that was doing work on promoting sex education as an actual learning tool for how to be a sexual being; how to know one’s sexual self. How the two models of sex education - the conservative abstinence only/fear based or the progressive health-based sex education didn’t actually address the core issue- we are sexual beings, and we need to honor that. I’m probably oversimplying that, but I think his idea is right. That as a culture we are pushed view sex as bad, and not taught to understand who we are in that area, or how to express needs appropriately. And without that connection, we end up expressing sex in really unhealthy ways. And it’s not just sex, it’s how we connect in relationships, how we bridge the gap with emotional intimacy. Women are often made to feel bad that they want sex. Men are taught they’re supposed to take sex without having feelings. When those things don’t prove to be true, a lot of people are hurt and confused. And nevermind alternative sexualities that are not represented.
Speaking for my own self as a woman, shedding many of the harmful messages about my sexuality was and continues to be essential for knowing myself as a person. Some of it might just be age, but I do believe a lot of it was exposure to sex positive thouht that was so readily available on the internet. Not just expressions of sex, but the discussions that surround it. And I never set out to look for it, it was just there, easy to stumble upon and see the message mainstream culture and my own upbringing had told me about sexuality was a lie. And it was long term exposure to those ideas that helped me start questioning to begin with. I’d argue I’m pretty vanilla too! I would imagine for those farther outside the heteronormative view of sex, and that makes all the difference. Like so many other things, its about representation.
Honestly, it sounds so simplistic to say, but controlling the sexual content the way it is; hiding all these smaller view points on sex and sexual expression is really one more way of reinforcing traditional models of sexuality. And that is all part of the goddamn patriarchy.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 7:24 AM on February 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
Even where women are depicted enjoying themselves in most readily porn, it’s in the service of the men they are with, not as being their own sexual persons.
The content that is disappearing is the content that is expression of sexuality that isn’t the heteronormative view of sex, and silences women and the queer community. It also punishes straight men who don’t hold the rigidly held compartmentalized masculinity that readily available porn promotes.
I met a philosophy professor this past summer that was doing work on promoting sex education as an actual learning tool for how to be a sexual being; how to know one’s sexual self. How the two models of sex education - the conservative abstinence only/fear based or the progressive health-based sex education didn’t actually address the core issue- we are sexual beings, and we need to honor that. I’m probably oversimplying that, but I think his idea is right. That as a culture we are pushed view sex as bad, and not taught to understand who we are in that area, or how to express needs appropriately. And without that connection, we end up expressing sex in really unhealthy ways. And it’s not just sex, it’s how we connect in relationships, how we bridge the gap with emotional intimacy. Women are often made to feel bad that they want sex. Men are taught they’re supposed to take sex without having feelings. When those things don’t prove to be true, a lot of people are hurt and confused. And nevermind alternative sexualities that are not represented.
Speaking for my own self as a woman, shedding many of the harmful messages about my sexuality was and continues to be essential for knowing myself as a person. Some of it might just be age, but I do believe a lot of it was exposure to sex positive thouht that was so readily available on the internet. Not just expressions of sex, but the discussions that surround it. And I never set out to look for it, it was just there, easy to stumble upon and see the message mainstream culture and my own upbringing had told me about sexuality was a lie. And it was long term exposure to those ideas that helped me start questioning to begin with. I’d argue I’m pretty vanilla too! I would imagine for those farther outside the heteronormative view of sex, and that makes all the difference. Like so many other things, its about representation.
Honestly, it sounds so simplistic to say, but controlling the sexual content the way it is; hiding all these smaller view points on sex and sexual expression is really one more way of reinforcing traditional models of sexuality. And that is all part of the goddamn patriarchy.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 7:24 AM on February 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
(And like everything the goddamn patriarchy touches, it harms everyone.)
posted by [insert clever name here] at 7:25 AM on February 4, 2019
posted by [insert clever name here] at 7:25 AM on February 4, 2019
You also have the problem that lots of people disagree where hate speech begins and legitimate discourse ends, and some of them will happily stir up trouble for your platform.
This is the heart of the problem, but not in the way you think. As Popper pointed out with the paradox of tolerance, the extremist will use tolerance as a tool to force their way into the discourse, then turn around and push out what they are opposed to because they don't actually believe in tolerance. Which is why we need to adopt the peace treaty model of tolerance, and show those who are intolerant the door.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:01 AM on February 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
This is the heart of the problem, but not in the way you think. As Popper pointed out with the paradox of tolerance, the extremist will use tolerance as a tool to force their way into the discourse, then turn around and push out what they are opposed to because they don't actually believe in tolerance. Which is why we need to adopt the peace treaty model of tolerance, and show those who are intolerant the door.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:01 AM on February 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
From the article: Google News shows one lonely result for "porn," an article that is 26 days old.
Not disputing her other points, but I am unable to reproduce this thing she claims happened to her. I tried a variety of scenarios and browsers and platforms, the search of google news for the term "porn" consistently come up with many recent results, including one from 43 minutes ago.
posted by AzraelBrown at 11:11 AM on February 4, 2019
Not disputing her other points, but I am unable to reproduce this thing she claims happened to her. I tried a variety of scenarios and browsers and platforms, the search of google news for the term "porn" consistently come up with many recent results, including one from 43 minutes ago.
posted by AzraelBrown at 11:11 AM on February 4, 2019
I am unable to reproduce this thing she claims happened to her
That will be Google Safe Search which is on by default.
posted by Lanark at 12:20 PM on February 4, 2019
That will be Google Safe Search which is on by default.
posted by Lanark at 12:20 PM on February 4, 2019
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It's critical at this harrowing juncture to understand that apps won, and the open internet lost. In 2013, most users accessing the internet went to mobile and stayed that way. People don't actually browse the internet anymore, and we are in a free-speech nightmare.
posted by gimonca at 6:05 AM on February 3, 2019 [21 favorites]