above it all
February 5, 2019 10:45 AM   Subscribe

 
Proving perfectly how the worst truism ever remains "you can never be too rich or too thin"

Anyway, having lived in NYC during 9/11, I can't wish for these things to topple to dust, but when the revolution comes, turn them into, I dunno... bird sanctuaries?
posted by gwint at 10:53 AM on February 5 [2 favorites]


47 feet wide and 600 feet tall (per the last link). Wow.
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:54 AM on February 5


I dunno... bird sanctuaries?

Vertical forests for the three bs, bats birds and bees.
posted by The Whelk at 11:06 AM on February 5 [3 favorites]


They look like they'd be real easy to knock over...

Also, this is precisely what my daughter does with her Duplos, and we don't think she's a groundbreaking architectural prodigy or anything.
posted by Naberius at 11:09 AM on February 5 [3 favorites]


The mind boggles. Is the transfer of air rights public record? I'd be fascinated to see the acquisitions these pencil towers made, overlaid against a map showing height and density around them. Realistically, to get approval to build 115,000 square feet on a lot measuring less than 3500 square feet, they must have bought up the air rights of every building for 2 blocks in every direction, right? So in effect they've borrowed against the ability of everyone in the neighborhood to build up any higher in the future, in order to create a handful of luxury apartments for people who now have a guarantee written into the zoning code that no one can build close enough to block their sun/view.

It's nice of the occupants of those penthouses to volunteer as the first with their backs against the wall then the revolution comes, though.
posted by Mayor West at 11:11 AM on February 5 [11 favorites]


You wouldn't see this if there were better public transportation that reduced downtown demand and street traffic.

People will always want to live in desirable locations, there will always be density issues. But increasing transportation effectiveness increases the potential footprint of what's considered desirable.

"Hey, Mr. and Mrs. Wealthy Van Hottenputt. Would you like a tiny skyscraper apartment or a giant castle up the Hudson River Valley? Keep in mind, the luxury bullet train to NYC is 10 minutes, or you can have your limo driver bring you in via remarkably empty streets because bullet trains are a thing now."
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:14 AM on February 5 [4 favorites]


People will always want to live in desirable locations

The crazy thing to me is that these are so rarely in what I'd consider to be desirable locations, which I guess just speaks to how different my life is from these people's. Like, you have that much money and you're living on 57th street? 34th street? What?
posted by Ragged Richard at 11:34 AM on February 5 [5 favorites]


Mr. and Mrs. Wealthy Van Hottenputt already have castles Upstate. This isn't about convenience, it's about status, investment, and, it seems, money laundering.
posted by gwint at 11:34 AM on February 5 [16 favorites]


if Jackie Kennedy onassis had been alive and lucid when these were 1st proposed they would have never been built. I've read that the time warner center was originally supposed to be as tall as them but she and her colleagues managed to intervene during planning before she died.
posted by brujita at 11:47 AM on February 5


47 feet wide, meh, I had a house where the lot was 19 feet wide.

That building is actually pretty attractive to me with the alternating indoor and outdoor floors, assuming it's actually waterproof. It seems like a lot of opportunities to collect rainwater and spring a leak into the units below.
posted by GuyZero at 11:54 AM on February 5


I freely admit that all of this is slightly confusing to me because it seems like a shell game. "I pay $45 million for an apartment in which I do not live, surrounded by other apartments in which no one lives, all of which are relatively unsuitable for actual living, and I am confident that some day I will be able to get $52 million for this apartment from someone else who will not live in it, as meanwhile the streets below empty out". Is there ever a point where someone says, "whoops, no one actually wants to live in this thing so its value is totally unmoored and basically an illusion"?
posted by Frowner at 11:54 AM on February 5 [23 favorites]


I just can’t get past the fact that the design for 432 Park is inspired by a wastepaper basket.

Trash-can tower full of billionaires.

Metaphors for modern society don’t get more on point than that.
posted by Kattullus at 12:09 PM on February 5 [12 favorites]


“Is there ever a point where someone says, "whoops, no one actually wants to live in this thing so its value is totally unmoored and basically an illusion"?

I want to say ...yes eventually it has to be but basically the entire global finance system has a vested interest in making sure that never happens so I think it just goes on forever until all the citities are empty and ringed by by dentition camps and debtors prisons
posted by The Whelk at 12:31 PM on February 5 [7 favorites]


"ringed by by dentition camps"

Let them eat cake with really good teeth?
posted by plastic_animals at 12:43 PM on February 5 [9 favorites]


How far down do they go? Like, they’d have to be rooted pretty deep to not just fall right over in a stiff breeze, right?
posted by Sys Rq at 12:58 PM on February 5 [2 favorites]


If you build a skinny enough building I guess it takes care of the flossing for you
posted by Huffy Puffy at 12:59 PM on February 5 [1 favorite]


can elon musk hurry up and send these idiots to mars
posted by Gymnopedist at 1:24 PM on February 5 [3 favorites]




downtown demand

These buildings aren't even downtown. They're solidly midtown.
posted by praemunire at 1:28 PM on February 5


Like, you have that much money and you're living on 57th street? 34th street? What?

Uhhh are you kidding me, you can go to the midtown Benihana *whenever you want*. Also definitely the highest concentration of hotels if you like hanging out in hotel lobbies.
posted by windbox at 1:44 PM on February 5 [6 favorites]


Mr. and Mrs. Wealthy Van Hottenputt already have castles Upstate. This isn't about convenience, it's about status, investment, and, it seems, money laundering.

Remember, we're talking about new construction, not who has what right now. These new buildings are going up because the other buildings are all full. If you focus on the unsexy parts of city management (e.g. transportation), then there is reduced pressure overall to start new construction in the downtown areas.

Money laundering is indeed part of the puzzle, though.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:50 PM on February 5 [2 favorites]


Have fun buckling up those Gucci parachutes when your cladding catches on fire, guys.

Oh wait, combustible cladding is only for the middle- and lower-classes. Carry on.
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:02 PM on February 5 [3 favorites]


Have fun buckling up those Gucci parachutes when your cladding catches on fire, guys.

Oh wait, combustible cladding is only for the middle- and lower-classes. Carry on.


I take it the designers/'tenants' never bothered to watch The Towering Inferno....
posted by gtrwolf at 2:06 PM on February 5 [1 favorite]


These new buildings are going up because the other buildings are all full.

No, they aren't. If Ken Griffin wanted an expensive apartment in existing midtown stock, he could get an expensive apartment. (He may in fact already have one or more!)

Metafilter, please, I swear, I am going down on my knees to you to try to understand, the sort of Econ 101 crude supply-and-demand model that may work decently well to explain where the supermarket is has only the most tangential relevance to the urban real-estate market.
posted by praemunire at 2:09 PM on February 5 [20 favorites]


For the most part the purchasers of these places are not planning on spending significant time there; many of the purchasers might not even be people per se. They are concrete manifestations of the weirdnesses of our economic system. That said, if you can dress in a cleaning uniform and show up/leave at fixed times of day you may have found the perfect squat.

19 feet wide? Luxury! Our lot is 16 feet wide outside the walls.
posted by phooky at 2:11 PM on February 5 [6 favorites]


"Right out of one of Hugh Ferriss’s drawings, the tower’s tapering silhouette is a literal expression of the required set-back angle along 57th Street. (The developers even hung a Ferriss-inspired image of the building over the scaffolding, perhaps the first time a planning diagram has been used as a marketing tool".
(From guardian link)

Er, no.
"Others could be self-evidently fantastic. In 1923 Ferriss was engaged by architect Harvey Wiley Corbett to make theatrical perspective drawings of a proposed full-scale reconstruction, in Philadelphia, of King Solomon's Temple and Citadel. The drawing anticipates Cecil B. De Mille."

Weyland Corporation: building thinner worlds.
posted by clavdivs at 2:17 PM on February 5 [2 favorites]


And the Romans lost the recipe for cement!

the Romans...
posted by clavdivs at 2:19 PM on February 5


From tmotat's link above:

Viñoly previously admitted that he "made a lot of mistakes" with London's Walkie Talkie after it melted a car in 2013

melted a car in 2013
ḿ̸̙̥̣̠̺͗ę̵̹̪͙̈͋l̷̢̛͔̇̚͠͠ṫ̸͓̥͓̹̩́e̸̢̺͘d̵͚͐̋̆̚
a car
the building melted
a car
ṁ̷̡̛̠̥̭̜͍̜̟͕̥̓̽̆͋̂ĕ̴̗̜͕͎̯̺̮̑͘ĺ̵͚̣͈̦̙̪̇t̶͉̝͎͍̳͓̃̈́̆̏̄̑̚͝ę̸͉͓̲̣̈́͗̇̈́̽d̸̤͙̦͕͍̣̬̻̣̈́̾̏̒͌̓ ̶̨̧̮̖̺̥͕͓̖̮̓̅̈́̿͌͋̾͠a̶̡̢̦̗̲̙̼͎͔̅̐͗͘ ̸̞̭͗̎̏̈̌̔̍̓̓̿c̸͉̦̥͕͚̀̽̔̑͛̀̓̀̋̍à̴̛͎̞̯̞̳̓͛̍̄̏͐̂r̶̢̘̱͙̹͉̓͗̆̓́́͜͝ ̵̬̱̺̀̒̒͐͑̿ͅ
̷̪͔̉̐̊̚
̷̡͔̍͊̓̇̃m̴̨̛̲̯͕̠͋̿̄̏͌̄͊̇̍͐ḛ̴̀͛̕l̴͙̺̇̾̔̈̈̄͒̚t̶̙̯̱̞̝̘̍̊̀̓̉̄̎͗͠ę̶̰͚͖̪̌̕͝ḑ̴̱̟̜̫͓̲̪̍
̵̨͕̤̰͓̯̙̹̤̈́̔
̴̧̨̞͔͓̝͚̊̃̓͒̆͆̃͜b̵̩͔̬͓͙͊̐͐̈́̆̐̋͝ù̵̢̢̮͓̙͉̹̙̞̯̎̾̾̌̌͜i̶̧̙̦̣̼͗̅̂̚l̷̨̬̬̜̟̥̱̈́̈́̚͝d̶̥͎̫̲̟͙̐̋̂̽ͅi̶͚̱͓̬͙̻̳͓̟͑̑̂̃̉̇͝͠ṅ̴̛̠̤̞̞̯͖̙̝̓̂̋͠ͅg̶̩̅ͅ ̷̪̦̝̾̏͝͝m̷͍̬̄̏̃́̃̐̔̈́͌͝ę̷̟̟͖͎̮̯̯̳̮̳̅̀̍̇͗̑̒̕l̴̗̇̈́̄̔̈́͗̃̐̉͝ť̵̨͈͔̦̬̽̿͒̐̀͌̿͋̑͗e̶͚̻͔̯̳͕͛́̑̃̃̕̕͘͝͝ḑ̴̩̱̱̰̝̻͊̓̆̉̂
̴̛̹͓̦͖̻̈́̆̀̌̽
̵͍̒͌̑̑̂̂̚͝͠͝ ̷͉̝̱̪̰̯̠̼̟̪͉̐͌́͑̀̀̋͗̈́̽ ̴̡̪͇̟̬̼̱̐̏́̋̂͘͘͝ ̸̘͈̊̓̀͐͝͠͝͠͝ ̵̢̪̘͕͙͔̪͐̾̆̔͑̒̓͆͝͝ ̴̛̰̆̀̆̐͌̚̚ ̵̲͔̬̝̈̒̇̾̎̍̂͘ ̴̗̘̥̝̙̝̠̤̤̀ ̵̞̱̪̠̌̊̉̐̍̽̾ ̷͍̩̃ ̵̧̆̿ ̵̧̲̈́̀̒ ̴̨̤͓͖͕̰̙̾͝ͅ ̶̡̡̨͙͙̥̤̤̲̺̣͗̈́͋̔̋͠ ̵̖̼̫̆̄̋̀̈̾̒̽̓̀͒ ̵͈̰̠͇̇͜ͅa̵̅̄̀́̏͜͝
̶̩̥̇̈́̋́͒̔̓̀
̸̨̡̜̭͈̖̦͓̥̋́͐̋͑̒͑̍̀͐͝ ̴̢̖̝̺̦̪̻̓̾̈́̃̐͐̒͌͌̃ ̶̺͎͎̝̖̗̘̗̼͎̳̉͗̾ ̷͕̹̳̭́́̎͑̓̓͒ ̴̢̢̭̺̮̖̰̹͍̮̯͒̓́ ̷̨̞̺͕̖̩̤̌̉̈͌ ̷̨̻̯͍̥̪͕̗̜̔̃́̀́ ̴̢͇͙͇̳͗̓̉̄̍ ̵̨̡̂ ̷̧̜̮̩̤̙̲̼̜̝̯͂́̒ ̷̫͛́̃̆̉́́͋̚͠ ̵̨̗͇̖̗̹͕͉̋̑ ̸͉̜̟̪̔ ̴̢̮̤̭̮̣̙͙͔̐̾̂̓͊͗̕ͅ ̴̗̤̻̙̈́͐̈͐̿͠ ̴̡͔͚͙͉͊ ̷̰͙̙͕͌̉͆̊̌̌͝ ̵̡̥̠̼̝̯̉̃̈̄̓͒͒̿́ ̸̛̝̝̹̔͐̽͜ ̶̦̰̥̖̖̤̬̟͇̈́̿̑ ̷͓̣͐́̚ ̶̡̢̨̘͖̠̳̗̬̤́̂ ̷̧̛̜̦͙̻̯̤͋̽̉̇̿̑̌̉͂̕ ̵̬͍̰̣̞̰͕̈́̍͂c̸̨̱͍̮̺̞̘͈͖̘͒̿̅̔͝a̶̧̨̬̪̭̰̲͍͙͍̾̔̔̇ṙ̸̰̫̈́̑͋͑͐̾
̶̧͍̩͋̆̇͌ ̵̠̀̈̈́ ̸͖̤̜̭̟͓̯͖̭̲̥̀ ̴̠̲͔̝̥̓̂̀͂̂ ̸̙̦̲͊ ̵̢͎̺͖͕͉̜̗͉̈́̐͐͛̃̂́̂̕ ̷̧̡̩̙̭͎̰͙̹͆̇̓̚̕ ̵̧͖̯̤̬̲̲̅͌͗͂͑̀̇͘̕͘ ̷̘̝́͌̃͆͑̿̎̎̕͠ͅ ̸̧̧͔͓̮͕͕͎́̈́ͅ ̷̜̘̰̃̋̎͑i̴̮̦͗̀̾̀n̵̫̤͉̳̠̓̏̈́̊͌̓̾̎͝ ̸̻̞̼̱̊̍̐̅2̶̤̝͈̰̈́̀̈́͠0̷̟̺̖̜̓1̴̢̰̰̥̺̯́̊̐̿̆͝3̵̟̏͐́͋͌̔͗͝
̸̨̨̠͓̽̈͒̅̈́̕̕͝
̷̡͈̼̙̝̪̥̤̜̥͙̐̀̔̂̏̉̏̕m̸̧̬͔̦̪͓̞̗̮̊ě̶̯̳́͑͛̊̔̑͊̆̇l̸̼͖̝̳͍̣͔͓͕̱̱̐ṱ̶̛̝̜̱͓̣̰̈͗͜e̴̢̙̘̲͛̋̇͗̀͂d̶̢̢̗̙͉̱̟͎̹̅̌̔͒̓̾̓̃͜ͅ

(̵͙̈̊̉́͠m̶̥͖̰̻̊͐̓͝ę̵̱͍͗̉ľ̸͇̦̘̓ṯ̴̻̏̽̀͛è̵͕̳̈́͒͒͝d̶̝͠ ̸̞̦͗̇ą̵̺̻͎̇̕͝ ̸̧̡̟͝ͅc̸͙͙̈́ā̶̧̲͐̊̄͠r̷̳͎̘̩͉͑̎͗ ̴̬͍̪̤͒́́̌

p̸̡̲͍̪̅͂̑̾ŕ̵̤͕̫̎̈́̏̕͜é̷͎́v̵̫̍́͌͝ì̵̞̦̘̉͌̑͠ỏ̴͍̝̥̜ͅű̶̦̯̊͛̔͌s̷͎̈́͂́̍͂ĺ̵̛̝̼ȳ̴̬͕)̴̫͋͘
posted by gauche at 2:30 PM on February 5 [11 favorites]


From the same mistakes-were-made llink:

Macklowe himself reportedly said that "penis envy" is driving Manhattan's swathe of supertall towers

Well, there it is.
posted by AndrewInDC at 2:34 PM on February 5 [2 favorites]


I look forward to the legal climate changing so that there are more "air rights" created so someone can buy up a ring of land around each "pencil" and build a 400-foot-on-a-side building that entirely surrounds each one. With really ugly murals on the inside surface, of course.
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 2:36 PM on February 5 [1 favorite]


Mr. and Mrs. Wealthy Van Hottenputt already have castles Upstate.

I've been living in the 2-family we bought back in the early 90's and paid off in the past year or two in Albany NY.

Comparable place commuting distance to my newest gig ( starting March in forking-Jersey-City ) is 7 - 10X what we paid for this place. And believe me, I am NOT forking happy about the idea of living in forking Staten Island just to keep my NY residency
posted by mikelieman at 2:36 PM on February 5


Macklowe himself reportedly said that "penis envy" is driving Manhattan's swathe of supertall towers

I have no need for such a tower because I already have a 3 foot long, two millimeter thick penis.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 3:02 PM on February 5 [16 favorites]


As someone who retired at 51 it boggles my mind that people worth eight figures would want to continue working. I don't care if their work begins at noon and ends at one with just six phone calls in between. That's one hour less of beach time, tennis, biking, softball, diving, fishing bridge and napping.
posted by notreally at 3:34 PM on February 5 [8 favorites]


the building melted
a car
ṁ̷̡̛̠̥̭̜͍̜̟͕̥̓̽̆͋̂ĕ̴̗̜͕͎̯̺̮̑͘ĺ̵͚̣͈̦̙̪̇t̶͉̝͎͍̳͓̃̈́̆̏̄̑̚͝ę̸͉͓̲̣̈́͗̇̈́̽d̸̤͙̦͕͍̣̬̻̣̈́̾̏̒͌̓ ̶̨̧̮̖̺̥͕͓̖̮̓̅̈́̿͌͋̾͠a̶̡̢̦̗̲̙̼͎͔̅̐͗͘ ̸̞̭͗̎̏̈̌̔̍̓̓̿c̸͉̦̥͕͚̀̽̔̑͛̀̓̀̋̍à̴̛͎̞̯̞̳̓͛̍̄̏͐̂r̶̢̘̱͙̹͉̓͗̆̓́́͜͝ ̵̬̱̺̀̒̒͐͑̿ͅ



Flagged as F̑͂̇͂́̀ă̄̓ͤ̀̓̅̇͗ͨ̅ͮ̈́̆̅̀͢͏n̨ͨ̋̓̿̓͐̅̃ͬͦ̐̍̆͐ͯͫ͋́́͞t̡̧͆̔ͤͣͨ̆͊ͫ̈́̈̋̎͌̎͘̕͝ā̛ͧ̃ͦ͂̃ͬ͗̆̃̎̀s̴̨̛͌ͩ̑̾̆́͘t̶̶ͦͭ͗͛̽̌ͦ̾̾ͤͣͩ͞͝͞į̛̂̓̑̌̒͂̾̊̽̓̊̂ͬ͢c̴̸̷̡ͫ̋̈̄̅̂̉̿̓̊̉̚͟
posted by clavdivs at 4:30 PM on February 5 [2 favorites]


it boggles my mind that people worth eight figures would want to continue working

I don't think people worth eight figures are in it for the money as much as the power; if they stop working, they only have the power their money brings, while continuing to work gives them the power their money and other people's assumptions about their future earnings bring. Or perhaps they don't see it as working, as much as having fun with their money (after all, if you had that level of money, wouldn't you do things with it, especially if you got to be in charge?)
posted by davejay at 4:32 PM on February 5 [3 favorites]


a certain member of the dictator's cabinet skewered on snl this past week sold his penthouse after one 57 became occupied and he no longer had privacy on the terrace.
posted by brujita at 8:24 PM on February 5


47 feet wide and 600 feet tall (per the last link). Wow.

Some of Saturn's rings are only a 100 or so feet wide but up to 2 miles tall.
(I'd much rather live there)
posted by sexyrobot at 8:49 PM on February 5 [3 favorites]


I just can’t get past the fact that the design for 432 Park is inspired by a wastepaper basket.

Presumably a special sort of wastepaper basket intended for folk who discard only rolled up posters and spaghetti strands.
posted by rongorongo at 11:59 PM on February 5 [4 favorites]


Saturn .. (I'd much rather live there) -- sexyrobot

I think the Causal Angel by Hannu Rajeniemi is set on Saturn for part of the novel.
posted by asok at 4:10 AM on February 6 [1 favorite]


Is there ever a point where someone says, "whoops, no one actually wants to live in this thing so its value is totally unmoored and basically an illusion"?

Yes. I think the plan is for the government to come in and bail everyone involved out at that point. (And why not? We did last time. They just need to find a way to hold a gun to the rest of the economy in the process.)

Anyway, more seriously, as was discussed in the other thread, I think the "money laundering" angle is overstated and the reports about it are confused, exaggerated, or both. Also I think a lot of people want to believe it, so it gets repeated. Asset parking, definitely. But there's not enough turnover for it to actually be money laundering.

It's interesting to see what actual scumbags real-estate investors think about NYC real estate (well, thought about it 4 years ago). The consensus opinion seems to be that it's not a quick or easy way to make money, and you can generate higher ROI elsewhere in the US, particularly in the Southeast (again, 4 years ago anyway).

But NYC seem to be perceived as a very safe bet. The assumption seems to be that while other places may take a nosedive, people will always want to live in Manhattan, and therefore buying RE there is a stable store of value.

Honestly I think this is totally crazypants; NYC real estate barely outperforms the S&P 500 over the long haul, it's illiquid, and it has huge tax and regulatory risk (one NYC election could change the market substantially). The only reason I can think of to do it, is that it's about as good as a traditional stock market investment, but should you need to you can live in it. Literally that's the only rational reason I can think of why some Russian oligarch would do it versus just going to a wealth manager and telling them to not do anything squirrelly ("lose my money and I vill keel you"). That leaves us with the believable, if somewhat unsatisfying, conclusion that rich people are just as dumb and irrational about their investments as the rest of us: they're potentially sacrificing a few percentage points of return to invest in something tangible in a city that they've heard of.

And that should be a little scary, because irrational behavior is exactly how you get speculative bubbles.
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:44 AM on February 6 [1 favorite]


The only reason I can think of to do it, is that it's about as good as a traditional stock market investment, but should you need to you can live in it.

Diversification and insurance. At that scale of wealth, you can and should be sacrificing a bit of return here and there to making provision against various kinds of economic fluctuations and catastrophe. For example, the NYC real estate market took a hit during the Great Recession, but nowhere near what the stock market did. Or suppose most of your wealth is tied up corruptly in your corrupt home country and the wrong people getting power means you'll lose it all--you'll still have your foreign real estate.
posted by praemunire at 9:06 AM on February 6


, I think the "money laundering" angle is overstated and the reports about it are confused, exaggerated, or both.
The use of 'money laundering' in the last thread often referred to laundering money in their home country (not a problem the US should be stepping in to deal with) without distinction between money laundering occurring in the US (which most assuredly should be dealt with by US authorities). It was also used without distinction in tax avoidance cases, which is similar but most assuredly not the same thing, and often legal even if it is crappy.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:14 AM on February 6 [2 favorites]


I'll also go on record as saying skinny buildings are kinda cool. 75 1/2 Bedford Street is only 9.5 feet wide!
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:25 AM on February 6


Sys Rq: One of the curious geological advantages of Manhattan is a pretty solid rock substrate not very far under ground. So while these things do have deep foundations, it's the material engineering above the ground that's the difference between these pencils and the last century blockhouses.
posted by kjs3 at 8:10 PM on February 6


I think the "money laundering" angle is overstated and the reports about it are confused, exaggerated, or both.

London would like to have a word with you....
posted by kjs3 at 8:11 PM on February 6


And that should be a little scary, because irrational behavior is exactly how you get speculative bubbles.

It’s been crystal clear we’re inside a nested series of speculative bubbles for some time now and I can trace my inability to sleep at night to when BlackRock started to sell rental backed securities about a year ago.
posted by The Whelk at 8:26 AM on February 7


One of the curious geological advantages of Manhattan is a pretty solid rock substrate not very far under ground.

This is true, but skyscraper economics are heavily influenced by real estate prices and valuations, not necessarily engineering considerations.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:05 PM on February 8




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