The jokes just write themselves
February 12, 2019 10:06 AM Subscribe
Reddit users are the least valuable of any social network: With 330 million monthly active users and revenue of about $100 million the company is generating an estimated $0.30 per user, much lower than Twitter ($9.48), Facebook ($7.37), Pinterest ($2.80) and Snap ($2.09).
A reddit thread covering this valued 4chan users at -$3.50 each.
posted by jklaiho at 10:12 AM on February 12, 2019 [34 favorites]
posted by jklaiho at 10:12 AM on February 12, 2019 [34 favorites]
(psst: another way to view this is that redditors are being exploited the least)
posted by mhoye at 10:13 AM on February 12, 2019 [134 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 10:13 AM on February 12, 2019 [134 favorites]
I’d be proud / happy about this if I was a reddit user. Least valuable = least monitized
posted by TheShadowKnows at 10:14 AM on February 12, 2019 [22 favorites]
posted by TheShadowKnows at 10:14 AM on February 12, 2019 [22 favorites]
Reddit ad inventory is really pricey, and there isn't a lot of it.
posted by JamesBay at 10:17 AM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by JamesBay at 10:17 AM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
Would be interested to see how Instagram (separately from Facebook) and MetaFilter stack up in this type of analysis, mainly because those are really the ony social networks I personally use.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:17 AM on February 12, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:17 AM on February 12, 2019 [4 favorites]
I like this analysis but it's a little backwards. It's more that Reddit's ad product is currently so awful they aren't monetizing users at all well. Their native ad product in particular is just terrible. And they don't do much in the way of ads imported from other more traditional sources.
They should easily be able to raise that $0.30 revenue/user number if they get more aggressive with ads, which is exactly why Tencent and friends just invested $300M on a $3B valuation. The problem with the ads is that all the Redditors will squawk and complain about how they hate ads. A fair population of ad blockers, too. I think they'll be able to up revenue but it'll come at some cost.
Maybe Reddit will end up having to balance its budget by begging $5/mo from users.
(Reddit really ought to pay its moderators. And manage them better.)
posted by Nelson at 10:19 AM on February 12, 2019 [16 favorites]
They should easily be able to raise that $0.30 revenue/user number if they get more aggressive with ads, which is exactly why Tencent and friends just invested $300M on a $3B valuation. The problem with the ads is that all the Redditors will squawk and complain about how they hate ads. A fair population of ad blockers, too. I think they'll be able to up revenue but it'll come at some cost.
Maybe Reddit will end up having to balance its budget by begging $5/mo from users.
(Reddit really ought to pay its moderators. And manage them better.)
posted by Nelson at 10:19 AM on February 12, 2019 [16 favorites]
I'm not sure if it's because I use ad blockers, but I see the same display ads on Reddit time after time after time and there is no way to indicate the ads are not relevant to me.
posted by JamesBay at 10:22 AM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by JamesBay at 10:22 AM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
They should easily be able to raise that $0.30 revenue/user number if they get more aggressive with ads
I'm not even a Redditor, but can I just say fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:24 AM on February 12, 2019 [36 favorites]
I'm not even a Redditor, but can I just say fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:24 AM on February 12, 2019 [36 favorites]
and there is no way to indicate the ads are not relevant to me.
Bad: being bombarded with ads for eye-rollingly tacky crap
Worse: being bombarded with ads for stuff that's uncannily appealing to some aspect of who you are, see yourself as or aspire, overtly or secretly, to be
posted by acb at 10:28 AM on February 12, 2019 [21 favorites]
Bad: being bombarded with ads for eye-rollingly tacky crap
Worse: being bombarded with ads for stuff that's uncannily appealing to some aspect of who you are, see yourself as or aspire, overtly or secretly, to be
posted by acb at 10:28 AM on February 12, 2019 [21 favorites]
To put this in creepy business logic terms, reddit needs to figure out how to monetize all the astroturfing promos and PR on many of the larger subreddits.
posted by MillMan at 10:35 AM on February 12, 2019 [12 favorites]
posted by MillMan at 10:35 AM on February 12, 2019 [12 favorites]
Real talk: how valuable are metafilter users though??
posted by nikoniko at 10:39 AM on February 12, 2019 [11 favorites]
posted by nikoniko at 10:39 AM on February 12, 2019 [11 favorites]
To put this in creepy business logic terms, reddit needs to figure out how to monetize all the astroturfing promos and PR on many of the larger subreddits.
Next you'll tell me that companies are paying Twitch streamers to cover their games!
posted by tobascodagama at 10:41 AM on February 12, 2019 [2 favorites]
Next you'll tell me that companies are paying Twitch streamers to cover their games!
posted by tobascodagama at 10:41 AM on February 12, 2019 [2 favorites]
To put this in creepy business logic terms, reddit needs to figure out how to monetize all the astroturfing promos and PR on many of the larger subreddits.
Or they could just monetize the users who have self-identified as being credulous rubes who will unwaveringly believe literally the dumbest shit ever conceived of by man, by marketing them things with large margins based on a targeted campaign of fear and hatred.
Join us next month on MetaFilter, as we explore the phenomenon of /r/the_donald users who purchased rocks to keep immigrants away.
posted by Mayor West at 11:02 AM on February 12, 2019 [15 favorites]
Or they could just monetize the users who have self-identified as being credulous rubes who will unwaveringly believe literally the dumbest shit ever conceived of by man, by marketing them things with large margins based on a targeted campaign of fear and hatred.
Join us next month on MetaFilter, as we explore the phenomenon of /r/the_donald users who purchased rocks to keep immigrants away.
posted by Mayor West at 11:02 AM on February 12, 2019 [15 favorites]
Craigslist doesn't make a lot per user either but it seems to be doing fine. Over-monitizing users and filling the space up with ads to make more money sometimes isn't the best long term strategy, especially if you actually like your users and want them to come back.
posted by jmauro at 11:25 AM on February 12, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by jmauro at 11:25 AM on February 12, 2019 [6 favorites]
Yeah, I feel kind of worthless when I post on reddit, so that makes sense.
posted by sotonohito at 11:28 AM on February 12, 2019 [12 favorites]
posted by sotonohito at 11:28 AM on February 12, 2019 [12 favorites]
Real talk: how valuable are metafilter users though??
$5, same as in town.
obviously
posted by aspersioncast at 11:28 AM on February 12, 2019 [84 favorites]
$5, same as in town.
obviously
posted by aspersioncast at 11:28 AM on February 12, 2019 [84 favorites]
Related(?): The Redditors Who Reclaimed Vile Subs (Wired article), which provides a pretty simple guide for how to reclaim hatesubs and what to do when you "own" it.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:40 AM on February 12, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by filthy light thief at 11:40 AM on February 12, 2019 [9 favorites]
You can think short term, or you can think long term. If you make the place uninhabitable, or unattractive, it will become less valuable. If you think you can just keep extracting value from things and the next thing will come along and be better, then you're devaluing things in general and people will stop using the 'next thing' altogether.
posted by amtho at 11:48 AM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by amtho at 11:48 AM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
Craigslist doesn't make a lot per user either but it seems to be doing fine. Over-monitizing users and filling the space up with ads to make more money sometimes isn't the best long term strategy, especially if you actually like your users and want them to come back.
Craigslist doesn't have investors though. It's a money printing machine (that sues people who try to make their site usable) owned by its founder and CEO. They can decide that they're making enough money and not try to squeeze every possible penny out of the operation.
Reddit, on the other hand, has people who just gave them $300M on the premise that the company is worth $3B, and those folks are expecting to get a return on that. Reddit management doesn't have the option of saying "we're profitable, we're fine, we're doing what's right for our users and the business" if they don't make more money, because they'd all be fired for that.
posted by zachlipton at 11:59 AM on February 12, 2019 [9 favorites]
Craigslist doesn't have investors though. It's a money printing machine (that sues people who try to make their site usable) owned by its founder and CEO. They can decide that they're making enough money and not try to squeeze every possible penny out of the operation.
Reddit, on the other hand, has people who just gave them $300M on the premise that the company is worth $3B, and those folks are expecting to get a return on that. Reddit management doesn't have the option of saying "we're profitable, we're fine, we're doing what's right for our users and the business" if they don't make more money, because they'd all be fired for that.
posted by zachlipton at 11:59 AM on February 12, 2019 [9 favorites]
Axiom: the amount of money generated per user varies linearly with how actively intolerable the platform is.
The recent redesign notwithstanding (the recent visual overhaul was intended, I think, to make the site friendlier to noobs, older users and advertisers), Reddit is much less actively obnoxious to use than any of the other platforms mentioned.
posted by killdevil at 11:59 AM on February 12, 2019 [3 favorites]
The recent redesign notwithstanding (the recent visual overhaul was intended, I think, to make the site friendlier to noobs, older users and advertisers), Reddit is much less actively obnoxious to use than any of the other platforms mentioned.
posted by killdevil at 11:59 AM on February 12, 2019 [3 favorites]
Real talk: how valuable are metafilter users though??
Priceless.
posted by Fizz at 12:00 PM on February 12, 2019 [15 favorites]
Priceless.
posted by Fizz at 12:00 PM on February 12, 2019 [15 favorites]
I would pay Twitter as much as double my worth if my money went toward making it less terrible.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 12:09 PM on February 12, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 12:09 PM on February 12, 2019 [6 favorites]
The Mastodon instance I run is definitely losing money. And I'm fine with that. Not everything needs to be run for profit, and I feel like the past decade has made me pretty sure that conversation channels are one of these things.
posted by egypturnash at 12:10 PM on February 12, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by egypturnash at 12:10 PM on February 12, 2019 [7 favorites]
Real talk: how valuable are metafilter users though??
I have difficulty sleeping at night knowing that I'm not being optimally monetized.
posted by killdevil at 12:12 PM on February 12, 2019 [18 favorites]
I have difficulty sleeping at night knowing that I'm not being optimally monetized.
posted by killdevil at 12:12 PM on February 12, 2019 [18 favorites]
I would gladly pay twice those prices to opt out of ads.
posted by DigDoug at 12:21 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by DigDoug at 12:21 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
Priceless
Speak for yourself, Fizz; I have my price.
I mean it’s a mountain made from the skulls of my enemies, burning in awful eternal fire, but I’m not proud, I’ll come to the table for that.
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:53 PM on February 12, 2019 [15 favorites]
Speak for yourself, Fizz; I have my price.
I mean it’s a mountain made from the skulls of my enemies, burning in awful eternal fire, but I’m not proud, I’ll come to the table for that.
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:53 PM on February 12, 2019 [15 favorites]
I would gladly pay twice those prices to opt out of ads.
It boggles me that places don't have provision for this. Those users are worth nothing to your advertisers, perhaps less than nothing—they are the kind of users who will see an ad and make a mental note to actively avoid that company if possible. (Hey there Casper Mattress, you may make a fine mattress but I'll never find out!) Meanwhile, by forcing them to see ads they may actively avoid your platform. (Hi Waze, if I could pay to get rid of your popups I would use you again!) And at least some of them would be willing to pay you cold hard cash well in excess of their nominal advertising value in order to use an ad-free version of your service.
What is the problem? Why are they leaving money on the table like that?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:59 PM on February 12, 2019 [14 favorites]
It boggles me that places don't have provision for this. Those users are worth nothing to your advertisers, perhaps less than nothing—they are the kind of users who will see an ad and make a mental note to actively avoid that company if possible. (Hey there Casper Mattress, you may make a fine mattress but I'll never find out!) Meanwhile, by forcing them to see ads they may actively avoid your platform. (Hi Waze, if I could pay to get rid of your popups I would use you again!) And at least some of them would be willing to pay you cold hard cash well in excess of their nominal advertising value in order to use an ad-free version of your service.
What is the problem? Why are they leaving money on the table like that?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:59 PM on February 12, 2019 [14 favorites]
Reddit is the only one of these sites that doesn't require sign-in to view content. I suspect that will change.
posted by melodykramer at 1:08 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by melodykramer at 1:08 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
Twitter doesn't require sign-in, it's just half broken and then is super obnoxious about wanting you to make an account. But it is possible to e.g. read a Twitter thread posted to MeFi, as I can attest.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 1:14 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 1:14 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
Ironically I'm many many times more likely to click on a ad I see here or on Reddit. I also leave ad block off both the sites because I don't mind the amount of ads I see.
posted by ShakeyJake at 1:22 PM on February 12, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by ShakeyJake at 1:22 PM on February 12, 2019 [2 favorites]
Why are they leaving money on the table like that?
Every time I've been able to ask this question (or seen it asked where someone in-industry would respond), the answer is generally "Those are the valuable users, so even though on average someone could opt-out for Facebook for $10/month, anybody who could actually pay $10/month is worth $100/month"
Which, I feel "No, I make a point of avoiding your company if I see an ad from them" should be pretty clear, but they operate in a land of aggregates and "statistically we make money from you", so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by CrystalDave at 1:32 PM on February 12, 2019 [11 favorites]
Every time I've been able to ask this question (or seen it asked where someone in-industry would respond), the answer is generally "Those are the valuable users, so even though on average someone could opt-out for Facebook for $10/month, anybody who could actually pay $10/month is worth $100/month"
Which, I feel "No, I make a point of avoiding your company if I see an ad from them" should be pretty clear, but they operate in a land of aggregates and "statistically we make money from you", so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by CrystalDave at 1:32 PM on February 12, 2019 [11 favorites]
Worse: being bombarded with ads for stuff that's uncannily appealing to some aspect of who you are, see yourself as or aspire, overtly or secretly, to be
For sure. I use Firefox's Facebook Container with both Facebook and Amazon to avoid creepy ads that follow me around based on my browsing history. And I guess I could block ads on Reddit entirely. However, I try to keep on top of adtech for professional reasons, and don't want to limit exposure to them entirely. It would be nice to indicate that, no, this ad does not address my interests.
Even Twitter lets you do that.
posted by JamesBay at 1:35 PM on February 12, 2019
For sure. I use Firefox's Facebook Container with both Facebook and Amazon to avoid creepy ads that follow me around based on my browsing history. And I guess I could block ads on Reddit entirely. However, I try to keep on top of adtech for professional reasons, and don't want to limit exposure to them entirely. It would be nice to indicate that, no, this ad does not address my interests.
Even Twitter lets you do that.
posted by JamesBay at 1:35 PM on February 12, 2019
Which, I feel "No, I make a point of avoiding your company if I see an ad from them" should be pretty clear, but they operate in a land of aggregates and "statistically we make money from you", so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It'd be interesting to see how things break down for Hulu, with their cheap plan that includes ads vs. their expensive plan that doesn't. Though they have a ton of other add-ons like HBO and other premium networks, live TV packages, etc., so maybe that dataset is too polluted to be broadly applicable.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:53 PM on February 12, 2019
It'd be interesting to see how things break down for Hulu, with their cheap plan that includes ads vs. their expensive plan that doesn't. Though they have a ton of other add-ons like HBO and other premium networks, live TV packages, etc., so maybe that dataset is too polluted to be broadly applicable.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:53 PM on February 12, 2019
filthy light thief provides a pretty simple guide for how to reclaim hatesubs and what to do when you "own" it.
It really is fairly simple, provided that the mods are inactive. I noticed that a subreddit named black_lives_matter had been registered by a now inactive account and was being used as a dumping ground for all manner of racist and antiBLM commentary. I filed a request for the subreddit, it was approved in a week or so, and I handed it over to the mods of the actual BLM subreddit to do with as they chose since, as a white guy, I didn't really think I ought to keep ownership of it no matter how well intentioned.
Where it gets more complex is when the mods aren't inactive. For example, for a very, very, long time the /r/xkcd subreddit was owned by a user who was a racist, sexist, conspiracy theorist and who provided links in the sidebar to various misogynist, racist, and conspiracy sites and subreddits. He was also absentee but not **quite** absentee enough for the reddit admins to let anyone take over the sub. Eventually he slipped up and was absent long enough, and now /r/xkcd isn't a linking to awful shit.
But the admins love retreating into legalisms to try and allow the worst subreddits to continue being owned by the worst people.
And, much much worse, if a person has a change of heart and tries to shut down a racist or sexist subreddit that they started, in at least one instance the reddit admins have stepped in to keep the subreddit going, taken ownership from that user, and given ownership to a racist, sexist, and otherwise awful user who wanted to keep the awful going.
This, it should be noted, is a direct violation of the very site rules that the admins invoke when people try to claim racist subreddits.
There's no way we can claim /r/The_Donald or any other extremely active awful subreddits, but there's a not especially organized effort to find the more abandoned ones and get rid of them anyway.
posted by sotonohito at 2:07 PM on February 12, 2019 [10 favorites]
It really is fairly simple, provided that the mods are inactive. I noticed that a subreddit named black_lives_matter had been registered by a now inactive account and was being used as a dumping ground for all manner of racist and antiBLM commentary. I filed a request for the subreddit, it was approved in a week or so, and I handed it over to the mods of the actual BLM subreddit to do with as they chose since, as a white guy, I didn't really think I ought to keep ownership of it no matter how well intentioned.
Where it gets more complex is when the mods aren't inactive. For example, for a very, very, long time the /r/xkcd subreddit was owned by a user who was a racist, sexist, conspiracy theorist and who provided links in the sidebar to various misogynist, racist, and conspiracy sites and subreddits. He was also absentee but not **quite** absentee enough for the reddit admins to let anyone take over the sub. Eventually he slipped up and was absent long enough, and now /r/xkcd isn't a linking to awful shit.
But the admins love retreating into legalisms to try and allow the worst subreddits to continue being owned by the worst people.
And, much much worse, if a person has a change of heart and tries to shut down a racist or sexist subreddit that they started, in at least one instance the reddit admins have stepped in to keep the subreddit going, taken ownership from that user, and given ownership to a racist, sexist, and otherwise awful user who wanted to keep the awful going.
This, it should be noted, is a direct violation of the very site rules that the admins invoke when people try to claim racist subreddits.
There's no way we can claim /r/The_Donald or any other extremely active awful subreddits, but there's a not especially organized effort to find the more abandoned ones and get rid of them anyway.
posted by sotonohito at 2:07 PM on February 12, 2019 [10 favorites]
It's more that Reddit's ad product is currently so awful they aren't monetizing users at all well.
Yeah, it's fun to poop on Reddit, but their ad product is barely one step above getting onto a mid-tier webring. Twitter has video in promoted tweets and video prerolls. Those just generate more cash.
Also Reddit has pretty low commercial intent overall, although I'm sure it's there in parts. Pintrest is straight-up commercial intent. If you sell home hardware, dump your entire marketing budget in Pintrest. FB has immense size and the craziest borderline-illegal ad targeting available anywhere.
Snap, I dunno. Snap has better sales people I guess and probably video, I don't use it so I dunno.
posted by GuyZero at 3:22 PM on February 12, 2019 [3 favorites]
Yeah, it's fun to poop on Reddit, but their ad product is barely one step above getting onto a mid-tier webring. Twitter has video in promoted tweets and video prerolls. Those just generate more cash.
Also Reddit has pretty low commercial intent overall, although I'm sure it's there in parts. Pintrest is straight-up commercial intent. If you sell home hardware, dump your entire marketing budget in Pintrest. FB has immense size and the craziest borderline-illegal ad targeting available anywhere.
Snap, I dunno. Snap has better sales people I guess and probably video, I don't use it so I dunno.
posted by GuyZero at 3:22 PM on February 12, 2019 [3 favorites]
What is the problem? Why are they leaving money on the table like that?
Because advertisers don't want a platform where people can opt out. The entire point of ads is getting people to see them, not to fund twitter with a cut of truck sales.
posted by GuyZero at 3:24 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
Because advertisers don't want a platform where people can opt out. The entire point of ads is getting people to see them, not to fund twitter with a cut of truck sales.
posted by GuyZero at 3:24 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
I guess the part I don't understand is that they even want people to see them who don't want to see them, people who will be actively pissed off by them, people who will specifically avoid their clients' companies or possibly the entire platform altogether, people who would happily pay money to avoid seeing them.
It just seems like one part self-delusion, one part sociopathy.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:46 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
It just seems like one part self-delusion, one part sociopathy.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:46 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
psst: another way to view this is that redditors are being exploited the least
Lololololol you genuinely think that just because Reddit, Inc. is incompetent at exploiting redditors that they’re not being exploited?
Redditors are exploited by every digital marketing agency, growth hacker, freelance marketing whosit, business, and brand — anything with an online presence.
Millions of people make money off of exploiting redditors, just not Reddit.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:50 PM on February 12, 2019 [5 favorites]
Lololololol you genuinely think that just because Reddit, Inc. is incompetent at exploiting redditors that they’re not being exploited?
Redditors are exploited by every digital marketing agency, growth hacker, freelance marketing whosit, business, and brand — anything with an online presence.
Millions of people make money off of exploiting redditors, just not Reddit.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:50 PM on February 12, 2019 [5 favorites]
Like OK, we've all heard the old chestnut that it's not about getting you to like the product, it's just about getting the product into your head, getting you familiar with the idea that buying the product is a thing people do. But is that real? Has it been rigorously demonstrated by quality studies? Because if there's one thing that I've found almost universally applicable in my dealings with sales and marketing types, it's that they have a higher-than-average propensity to believe what they want to believe and to cherry-pick evidence that supports their priors. Advertising campaigns work best on people who work in advertising, right? Is it actually beneficial to them to be pissing me off all day long? Because it doesn't feel like it should be on my end.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:51 PM on February 12, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:51 PM on February 12, 2019 [4 favorites]
Also, the people willing to pay a monthly fee not to be annoyed by ads are probably much more valuable to targeted marketers, and the analytics data on how they engage with content, what they look at, which words they use when they type and so on is something data brokers would be willing to pay a premium for. And if terms of service could be so phrased as to hint at offering privacy whilst reserving the right to monetise this juicy revenue stream, shareholders wouldn't be too happy if such money was left on the table.
posted by acb at 3:52 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by acb at 3:52 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
Isn't the goal of marketing though, on some level, to sell products and services? Or is it all just a total Ouroboros at this point?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:08 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:08 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
Millions of people make money off of exploiting redditors, just not Reddit.
Which is why you can sell your reddit account to spammers for decent money.
posted by ryanrs at 4:31 PM on February 12, 2019 [3 favorites]
Which is why you can sell your reddit account to spammers for decent money.
posted by ryanrs at 4:31 PM on February 12, 2019 [3 favorites]
That is actually fairly pathetic money. I am always disappointed by how little a value people place on integrity.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:33 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:33 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
Integrity? You mean the spammers, or the people farming low-effort shitpost accounts to sell to spammers?
posted by ryanrs at 4:39 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by ryanrs at 4:39 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
Millions of people make money off of exploiting redditors, just not Reddit.
You mean all those highly-upvoted "First Photo of the Craft Services Table for Upcoming Blockbuster" posts on /r/movies might originate from marketing campaigns rather than legitimate user interest???
posted by tobascodagama at 4:41 PM on February 12, 2019 [3 favorites]
You mean all those highly-upvoted "First Photo of the Craft Services Table for Upcoming Blockbuster" posts on /r/movies might originate from marketing campaigns rather than legitimate user interest???
posted by tobascodagama at 4:41 PM on February 12, 2019 [3 favorites]
If your argument that redditors aren’t being exploited is “yeah but does marketing even work?” I sort of have to wonder why you feel like you’ve got a dog in this fight?
But commercial advertising / marketing isn’t the only use case, obviously. That’s just one subgenre of exploitation. There’s also exploitation for political purposes. Or literally anything involving persuasion and influence.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:42 PM on February 12, 2019
But commercial advertising / marketing isn’t the only use case, obviously. That’s just one subgenre of exploitation. There’s also exploitation for political purposes. Or literally anything involving persuasion and influence.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:42 PM on February 12, 2019
I'm not arguing that they're not being exploited, I'm questioning the value of marketing to people who explicitly dislike being marketed to and would be willing to pay actual money to avoid it. I've yet
to be convinced that there is any.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:53 PM on February 12, 2019 [3 favorites]
to be convinced that there is any.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:53 PM on February 12, 2019 [3 favorites]
Wait, to try to be less fighty, since this is a silly thing to be fighty about: reddit’s inability to monetize in relatively transparent ways + the fact that it’s owned by venture vulture types + the ecosystem that’s sprung up around exploiting redditors in totally opaque ways + reddit’s continued role in growing and metastizing toxic communities...
All of that makes me very nervous about what Reddit’s investors do in the future, so I kind of feel like it’s actively harmful to assert that redditors are somehow less exploitable. And I think the assertion that redditors are less exploitable also struck me as close to the sort of smug sciencism-type superiority that I associate with the more toxic elements of Reddit.
In conclusion, Reddit scares me, metafilter forever.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:54 PM on February 12, 2019
All of that makes me very nervous about what Reddit’s investors do in the future, so I kind of feel like it’s actively harmful to assert that redditors are somehow less exploitable. And I think the assertion that redditors are less exploitable also struck me as close to the sort of smug sciencism-type superiority that I associate with the more toxic elements of Reddit.
In conclusion, Reddit scares me, metafilter forever.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:54 PM on February 12, 2019
Sure, I agree with all that. That's not what I have been arguing about though, my comment about the low cost of a Reddit spam account was sort of a one-off, and mostly I've been talking about how it's a shame that so many places won't even let you pay them money to turn off the ads.
I don't really know that much about Reddit, but I hear it's badly run and headed for deep financial trouble, and that it's a Wild West of shills and astroturfing, as well as hatred and fascism. People I trust tell me that it's true, and I believe them.
Frankly, it all sounds quite horrible.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:07 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
I don't really know that much about Reddit, but I hear it's badly run and headed for deep financial trouble, and that it's a Wild West of shills and astroturfing, as well as hatred and fascism. People I trust tell me that it's true, and I believe them.
Frankly, it all sounds quite horrible.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:07 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
Everything you say about reddit is true. But it is also true that there are some pretty neat reddit subs, after you exclude the popular default subs, the nazi subs, the racist subs, the anti-women subs, the child porn subs, and about 90% of everything else.
I can see how that sounds ridiculous, like why would anyone visit a site with all that garbage just to participate in a few small communities that fly under the radar. But it can be hard finding those groups elsewhere.
posted by ryanrs at 5:25 PM on February 12, 2019 [9 favorites]
I can see how that sounds ridiculous, like why would anyone visit a site with all that garbage just to participate in a few small communities that fly under the radar. But it can be hard finding those groups elsewhere.
posted by ryanrs at 5:25 PM on February 12, 2019 [9 favorites]
It sounds kind of like going swimming in an open septic tank because there are some pretty good chunks of fried chicken in there if you search hard enough, yeah.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:40 PM on February 12, 2019
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:40 PM on February 12, 2019
Like a poop milkshake, but mostly poop.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:42 PM on February 12, 2019
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:42 PM on February 12, 2019
Mod note: Hey, Anticipation, you're kinda dominating the pace of comments in here, maybe let the thread breathe at this point.
posted by cortex (staff) at 5:48 PM on February 12, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 5:48 PM on February 12, 2019 [7 favorites]
You have to know what you’re looking for. r/AskHistorians and related subs are excellent. Subs for specific tech topics can be really good, as can some fandoms. Many are just amusing (I like r/IdiotsInCars and r/BitchImATrain). As with many things on the Internet, you have to know when to quit reading the comments.
Of course it’s not as pleasant to be around as Metafilter, but what is?
posted by lhauser at 5:52 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
Of course it’s not as pleasant to be around as Metafilter, but what is?
posted by lhauser at 5:52 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
why would anyone visit a site with all that garbage just to participate in a few small communities that fly under the radar. But it can be hard finding those groups elsewhere.
I visit a lot of gaming tips-and-walkthroughs subreddits; they're very focused on their topics. While I'm fairly sure they run heavily to sexist racist homophobic posters (sometimes I click to see what else someone has written, and... wow...) but the gaming advice is just "do this level first and grab that macguffin, then head to the plaza to get the max reward for it" and so on.
I don't often see the sludge at reddit because I don't go there to have discussions. I know it's there, but it's easy to miss if you're not using reddit as a social platform but instead sticking to a few places for specific types of info-exchange.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:19 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
I visit a lot of gaming tips-and-walkthroughs subreddits; they're very focused on their topics. While I'm fairly sure they run heavily to sexist racist homophobic posters (sometimes I click to see what else someone has written, and... wow...) but the gaming advice is just "do this level first and grab that macguffin, then head to the plaza to get the max reward for it" and so on.
I don't often see the sludge at reddit because I don't go there to have discussions. I know it's there, but it's easy to miss if you're not using reddit as a social platform but instead sticking to a few places for specific types of info-exchange.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:19 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The On the topic of advertising effectiveness, I've often wondered similar things.
We know that companies often do stuff more out of reflex then out of any actual reasoned and studied thought. How effective **IS** advertising? Especially advertising for incredibly well known products, or products where consumers have a definite preference for one brand or another?
Take Coke and Pepsi. No one on Earth is unaware that those products exist, and I really doubt people see an ad for Coke and decide to buy a Coke because they're reminded that the product exists. And there's really not much chance of convincing people to switch brands, the average person has a definite preference for one or the other and they're not going to watch an ad and decide to switch brands.
So why do they advertise? What purpose does it serve? I really do suspect that in part it's just reflex. They advertise because they've always advertised and they can't even imagine trying something else.
I'd argue that advertising can be broadly split into two categories: informational and presence. Informational advertising tells the viewer about something new, and I suspect that it is effective. You see an ad for a movie you've not heard of, or had fallen out of your head, you might go see the movie. You see an ad for a new product at a store, if it's something you think you might be into you might try it. You see an ad for a sale on a product that's existed for a while, you might buy it because the cheaper price is new or tempting.
Presence ads are just there to say 'hey, remember us, we're still here!' and I think they're mostly worthless. Unlike movies, which switch out all the time, companies are pretty consistent and just reminding you that they exist is probably useless.
posted by sotonohito at 6:35 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
We know that companies often do stuff more out of reflex then out of any actual reasoned and studied thought. How effective **IS** advertising? Especially advertising for incredibly well known products, or products where consumers have a definite preference for one brand or another?
Take Coke and Pepsi. No one on Earth is unaware that those products exist, and I really doubt people see an ad for Coke and decide to buy a Coke because they're reminded that the product exists. And there's really not much chance of convincing people to switch brands, the average person has a definite preference for one or the other and they're not going to watch an ad and decide to switch brands.
So why do they advertise? What purpose does it serve? I really do suspect that in part it's just reflex. They advertise because they've always advertised and they can't even imagine trying something else.
I'd argue that advertising can be broadly split into two categories: informational and presence. Informational advertising tells the viewer about something new, and I suspect that it is effective. You see an ad for a movie you've not heard of, or had fallen out of your head, you might go see the movie. You see an ad for a new product at a store, if it's something you think you might be into you might try it. You see an ad for a sale on a product that's existed for a while, you might buy it because the cheaper price is new or tempting.
Presence ads are just there to say 'hey, remember us, we're still here!' and I think they're mostly worthless. Unlike movies, which switch out all the time, companies are pretty consistent and just reminding you that they exist is probably useless.
posted by sotonohito at 6:35 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
But it can be hard finding those groups elsewhere.
Indeed. Find me a replacement for /r/badukshitposting and I'll consider giving up reddit.
posted by sfenders at 7:52 PM on February 12, 2019 [3 favorites]
Indeed. Find me a replacement for /r/badukshitposting and I'll consider giving up reddit.
posted by sfenders at 7:52 PM on February 12, 2019 [3 favorites]
For fuck’s sake, people, does literally every thread about Reddit have to rehash the exact same argument? Yes, plenty of bad shit there, but some good stuff too. It’s a huge site with a diverse user base. Enough with the clever analogies about salad bars that might have tainted lettuce or whatever.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 9:28 PM on February 12, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 9:28 PM on February 12, 2019 [7 favorites]
Reddit's like usenet: what happens in one subreddit stays in that subreddit unless you cross post, so it is quite easy to avoid the true shit heaps. Just because alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.child existed doesn't make rec.arts.comics.misc worthless.
It's not like Twitter or Facebook where you basically have one undifferated stream going through a timeline you nominally control but which is increasingly manipulated by the company itself.
posted by MartinWisse at 11:20 PM on February 12, 2019 [7 favorites]
It's not like Twitter or Facebook where you basically have one undifferated stream going through a timeline you nominally control but which is increasingly manipulated by the company itself.
posted by MartinWisse at 11:20 PM on February 12, 2019 [7 favorites]
tbf, it is one undifferentiated stream if you don't log in
posted by ryanrs at 1:01 AM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 1:01 AM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
Reddit is the last major outpost of anything resembling Usenet and the old web in general, so not surprising it's the least monetized.
posted by bookman117 at 1:10 AM on February 13, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by bookman117 at 1:10 AM on February 13, 2019 [6 favorites]
But there wasn't a central entity attempting to monetize and profit off Usenet, Martin, which I think makes a difference ethically when it comes to shitty subreddits vs newsgroups. That's an issue specific to reddit's ownership rather than the userbase I suppose.
Also the SF groups on reddit make me sad because they don't hold a candle to how I remember rasfw and rasff, which I'm sure you know given I still remember your posts from... 20 years ago(?). But maybe I'm remembering usenet through rose-tinted glasses. There sure was an awful lot of gun control argument and rabid libertarian attack weasel action.
posted by Justinian at 5:14 AM on February 13, 2019 [4 favorites]
Also the SF groups on reddit make me sad because they don't hold a candle to how I remember rasfw and rasff, which I'm sure you know given I still remember your posts from... 20 years ago(?). But maybe I'm remembering usenet through rose-tinted glasses. There sure was an awful lot of gun control argument and rabid libertarian attack weasel action.
posted by Justinian at 5:14 AM on February 13, 2019 [4 favorites]
Like OK, we've all heard the old chestnut that it's not about getting you to like the product, it's just about getting the product into your head, getting you familiar with the idea that buying the product is a thing people do. But is that real?
A certain non-dairy milk company seems to base its entire marketing strategy on this theory, plastering every surface with gloatingly douchey ads. The message is always the same: you can pretend you're not reading this but you are. You can ignore this ad, but there's another one on the other side. In short: we own your consciousness.
Have they succeeded? Well, I am certainly involuntarily aware of their brand, but I will go out of my way to not buy their product, regardless of its intrinsic qualities. I had a flat white with cow's milk for the first time in years* because a café I went to only had dairy and the national oat milk monopoly here.
Perhaps I'm an outlier, and the typical response is “Well, you sure got me, oat-milk bros, fair play!” and the first step to conversion as a life-long customer, though I doubt that the number of people who are averse to obnoxious ads is negligible. Given the recent surveys that show that the vast majority of people are not cool with targeted advertising, as the adtech industry has been saying they are, I suspect a lot of conventional wisdom about consumer docility is false. Or that what has been seen as cheerful acquiescence is more like learned helplessness, which is permanently destroyed once an alternative is demonstrated.
* after a few years of Bonsoy and the like, cow's milk in coffee tasted weird and somewhat gross; next time I'll have an espresso.
posted by acb at 5:21 AM on February 13, 2019
A certain non-dairy milk company seems to base its entire marketing strategy on this theory, plastering every surface with gloatingly douchey ads. The message is always the same: you can pretend you're not reading this but you are. You can ignore this ad, but there's another one on the other side. In short: we own your consciousness.
Have they succeeded? Well, I am certainly involuntarily aware of their brand, but I will go out of my way to not buy their product, regardless of its intrinsic qualities. I had a flat white with cow's milk for the first time in years* because a café I went to only had dairy and the national oat milk monopoly here.
Perhaps I'm an outlier, and the typical response is “Well, you sure got me, oat-milk bros, fair play!” and the first step to conversion as a life-long customer, though I doubt that the number of people who are averse to obnoxious ads is negligible. Given the recent surveys that show that the vast majority of people are not cool with targeted advertising, as the adtech industry has been saying they are, I suspect a lot of conventional wisdom about consumer docility is false. Or that what has been seen as cheerful acquiescence is more like learned helplessness, which is permanently destroyed once an alternative is demonstrated.
* after a few years of Bonsoy and the like, cow's milk in coffee tasted weird and somewhat gross; next time I'll have an espresso.
posted by acb at 5:21 AM on February 13, 2019
Everything you say about reddit is true. But it is also true that there are some pretty neat reddit subs, after you exclude the popular default subs, the nazi subs, the racist subs, the anti-women subs, the child porn subs, and about 90% of everything else.
There's now a MeTa thread for recommendations of such subreddits, if anybody has any tips.
posted by acb at 7:40 AM on February 13, 2019 [4 favorites]
There's now a MeTa thread for recommendations of such subreddits, if anybody has any tips.
posted by acb at 7:40 AM on February 13, 2019 [4 favorites]
Why are they leaving money on the table like that?
My threefold theory is:
posted by suetanvil at 8:25 AM on February 13, 2019 [6 favorites]
My threefold theory is:
- Ad-supported sites wish to normalize the idea that the Web has advertising. If it became possible to opt out, more people would want it.
- Selling a non-ad version of the site puts it in competition (since no-ads is also a product) with the advertisers. Customers don't like it when you compete with them.
- People with enough disposable income to pay for a website are the sort of people advertisers want the most.
posted by suetanvil at 8:25 AM on February 13, 2019 [6 favorites]
I agree that reddit has a number of fairly delightful subs, it's just too damn sprawling to engage with without making the effort to curate a feed, and frankly I don't have time for that. Back when I did I spent a lot more time there.
I wonder how much a ycombinator user is worth these days. Or slashdot.
posted by aspersioncast at 11:39 AM on February 13, 2019
I wonder how much a ycombinator user is worth these days. Or slashdot.
posted by aspersioncast at 11:39 AM on February 13, 2019
I wonder how much a ycombinator user is worth these days.
99.9% are worthless but that 0.1% are worth a million dollars.
posted by GuyZero at 11:55 AM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
99.9% are worthless but that 0.1% are worth a million dollars.
posted by GuyZero at 11:55 AM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
But what if the big evilcorp name brand that you avoid because of ads also owns several tiny subsidiaries. And evilcorp’s strategy is to build negative brand awareness so that you seek out their “competition” that isn’t really competition at all.
Seattle natives will remember when Starbucks quietly bought the small Seattle’s Best chain, then acted like Seattle’s Best was the hipster alternative to Starbucks. Isn’t it great how capitalism gives us choices?
posted by Glibpaxman at 6:47 PM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
Seattle natives will remember when Starbucks quietly bought the small Seattle’s Best chain, then acted like Seattle’s Best was the hipster alternative to Starbucks. Isn’t it great how capitalism gives us choices?
posted by Glibpaxman at 6:47 PM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
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posted by acb at 10:10 AM on February 12, 2019 [5 favorites]