I'm @jack's complete lack of #karajack š„ LIKE & RT PLS š
February 13, 2019 9:00 AM Subscribe
How hard is it to have a conversation on Twitter? So hard even the CEO canāt do it. Here's a transcript of the interview.
But maybe conversations aren't really what twitter "does"? It started as a microblogging platform, and IIRC users invented @s and #s to help enable some crosstalk, but otherwise it's about viewing other posts, and quick, one-off responses?
I agree, there's lots of things that need to be fixed in Twitter, but becoming more like Facebook Messenger isn't one of those.
posted by AzraelBrown at 9:09 AM on February 13, 2019 [9 favorites]
I agree, there's lots of things that need to be fixed in Twitter, but becoming more like Facebook Messenger isn't one of those.
posted by AzraelBrown at 9:09 AM on February 13, 2019 [9 favorites]
The reason this interview was hard to follow has nothing to do with Twitter.
No, it's hard to follow because its subject is engaging in more evasion than a jet fighter in a dogfight. Dorsey is being utterly dishonest here, because he is the problem with Twitter. But he is unwilling to accept responsibility for the hellpit Twitter has become, so we get Swisher engaging in the rhetorical equivalent of nailing jelly to the wall.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:09 AM on February 13, 2019 [38 favorites]
No, it's hard to follow because its subject is engaging in more evasion than a jet fighter in a dogfight. Dorsey is being utterly dishonest here, because he is the problem with Twitter. But he is unwilling to accept responsibility for the hellpit Twitter has become, so we get Swisher engaging in the rhetorical equivalent of nailing jelly to the wall.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:09 AM on February 13, 2019 [38 favorites]
Twitter's UX is terrible by design. What other service has other services being created to try to fix its UI?
posted by signal at 9:15 AM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by signal at 9:15 AM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
I've received more helpful, human-like responses from the dialog boxes that pop up while troubleshooting a bad Wi-Fi connection.
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:17 AM on February 13, 2019 [15 favorites]
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:17 AM on February 13, 2019 [15 favorites]
Twitter's a mess because its owners do not understand it. It will be interesting if they learn anything from this, but I'm not holding my breath.
posted by tommasz at 9:18 AM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 9:18 AM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
@jack:
wtf it's all full of outrage and fast takes and fragmented conversations
who could have seen that coming ĀÆ\_(ć)_/ĀÆ
posted by flabdablet at 9:26 AM on February 13, 2019 [36 favorites]
I also donāt feel good about how Twitter tends to incentivize outrage, fast takes, short term thinking, echo chambers, and fragmented conversation and consideration.hey guys guys i got one lets build a thing that only lets people post 140 characters at a time and see what happens
wtf it's all full of outrage and fast takes and fragmented conversations
who could have seen that coming ĀÆ\_(ć)_/ĀÆ
posted by flabdablet at 9:26 AM on February 13, 2019 [36 favorites]
The commonly-circulated wisdom about Twitter is that the people who work at Twitter, from the lowliest contractor up to the CEO himself, don't really use Twitter and have no real understanding of it. Someone once pointed out that few things could sum up Twitter's own stubborn obliviousness about its own product than the fact that it killed Vine but kept Periscope.
posted by mhum at 9:30 AM on February 13, 2019 [21 favorites]
posted by mhum at 9:30 AM on February 13, 2019 [21 favorites]
I really wish twitter would make unfollowing someone less cumbersome. That's like 99% of the reason why I hate my own twitter account, I've followed too many news/media accounts and it's difficult to cut back on that without a significant time sink. It's just clunky to organize and I say this as someone who makes use of twitter lists.
I know I could just as easily create a new account and ask a few of the people I love to follow me there but I imagine half of the people I want to follow me over on my new account will either miss that notification or just be lazy. I also kind of don't care about this form of social media any more. It's too exhausting. Even if I did start over, it would still feel like a place where my mental health goes into the toilet.
I'm happy with MetaFilter, texting, & email. It's a shame really, those early days of twitter felt fun, when you could really meet someone interesting and make a connection. Now it's all hot-takes, breaking news alerts, and toxicity. Blurgh.
posted by Fizz at 9:31 AM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
I know I could just as easily create a new account and ask a few of the people I love to follow me there but I imagine half of the people I want to follow me over on my new account will either miss that notification or just be lazy. I also kind of don't care about this form of social media any more. It's too exhausting. Even if I did start over, it would still feel like a place where my mental health goes into the toilet.
I'm happy with MetaFilter, texting, & email. It's a shame really, those early days of twitter felt fun, when you could really meet someone interesting and make a connection. Now it's all hot-takes, breaking news alerts, and toxicity. Blurgh.
posted by Fizz at 9:31 AM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
Kara is a national treasure.
posted by a complicated history at 9:36 AM on February 13, 2019
posted by a complicated history at 9:36 AM on February 13, 2019
I really wish twitter would make unfollowing someone less cumbersome.
I'm sure there's a mass unfollow app somewhere but it's probably just easier to create a list or two and add accounts to them. You can even switch to Tweetdeck if you want to browse multiple lists at once.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 9:41 AM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
I'm sure there's a mass unfollow app somewhere but it's probably just easier to create a list or two and add accounts to them. You can even switch to Tweetdeck if you want to browse multiple lists at once.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 9:41 AM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
Dave Lee: .@jackās favourite Twitter user is a man who used his platform to falsely accuse someone of being a paedophile.
posted by tofu_crouton at 9:46 AM on February 13, 2019 [10 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 9:46 AM on February 13, 2019 [10 favorites]
Twitter's UX is terrible by design. What other service has other services being created to try to fix its UI?
Tumblr. And I would argue that Tumblr's UI is even worse, because nothing is documented.
posted by snakeling at 9:46 AM on February 13, 2019 [5 favorites]
Tumblr. And I would argue that Tumblr's UI is even worse, because nothing is documented.
posted by snakeling at 9:46 AM on February 13, 2019 [5 favorites]
Twitter is sort of context-free by design no? All of the "modern" sites seem to be low-context designs: facebook, pinterest, instagram, though twitter is the worst at it. They all prioritize hot-takes and one offs over sustained focus on a topic.
posted by bonehead at 9:47 AM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by bonehead at 9:47 AM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
I mean, it shouldn't be a surprise that anything requiring continuing context like an interview is nearly impossible on these sorts of sites.
posted by bonehead at 9:48 AM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by bonehead at 9:48 AM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
I wish there was a way to actually mute a conversation, instead of just muting the notifications from a conversation. There are people I follow who will occasionally kick off a long-winded, days-spanning thread on a topic I have zero interest in, and the only way to effectively shut it up is to temporarily mute that person until the storm passes. (And I will usually completely forget to unmute them.)
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:49 AM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:49 AM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
signal: Twitter's UX is terrible by design. What other service has other services being created to try to fix its UI?
In some ways, Twitter is like a lot of other instant messaging systems: there's the underlying protocol, and then there's the tool that uses the protocol. There are a LOT of different Instant Messaging clients, and not because there are that many different protocols, but because people had an idea of how they could improve over what already existed.
But if you're looking for "packaged" services, then other social platforms also have 3rd party services to clean and reorganize how people can interact with and use the services. Probably not to the level of Twitter, but I think that's because Twitter is closer to an IM platform than a social platform.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:52 AM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
In some ways, Twitter is like a lot of other instant messaging systems: there's the underlying protocol, and then there's the tool that uses the protocol. There are a LOT of different Instant Messaging clients, and not because there are that many different protocols, but because people had an idea of how they could improve over what already existed.
But if you're looking for "packaged" services, then other social platforms also have 3rd party services to clean and reorganize how people can interact with and use the services. Probably not to the level of Twitter, but I think that's because Twitter is closer to an IM platform than a social platform.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:52 AM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
This interview is a trainwreck. Not just because of Twitter's UI, but because of the half-time CEO's comments. My jaw dropped when Jack failed to give the obvious reasonable answer to this question
posted by Nelson at 9:59 AM on February 13, 2019 [8 favorites]
Kara: That seems questionable to a lot of people. Let me try it a different way: What historic newsworthy figure would you ban? Is someone bad enough to ban. Be specific. A name.And as if historical examples aren't enough to consider, it was only last year that Facebook directly enabled genocide in Myanmar. (The only reason it wasn't Twitter is Twitter is not as successful a product in Myanmar.) But Jack's enamored with Myanmar these days so who knows.
Jack: We have to enforce based on our policy and what people do on our service. And evolve it with the current times. No way I can answer that based on people. Has to be focused on patterns of how people use the technology.
Kara: Not one name? Ok, but it is a copout imho. I have a long list.
posted by Nelson at 9:59 AM on February 13, 2019 [8 favorites]
Also, regarding this specific interview, I think Swisher did as good a job as could be expected trying to get Dorsey to say something (anything!) specific about any claimed improvements or progress. However, I think there was a missed opportunity to exploit this novel format of interview. I think it would have been great to have loaded up all the different times over the past 10 or so years where Dorsey has said things like "we're thinking deeply about these issues", "we've made progress but not enough", "we didn't move fast enough to address this", etc... in interviews just like this one; and believe me, there are no shortage of these because he recites these phrases like one of those pull-a-string-hear-an-animal-noise toys. Then, when he gives yet another of these stock reply templates, just paste a link (or better yet quote tweet) into the interview stream with the comment "Hey, you said pretty much this exact same thing in 2015. And 2016. And 2017. What's different now?"
posted by mhum at 10:01 AM on February 13, 2019 [10 favorites]
posted by mhum at 10:01 AM on February 13, 2019 [10 favorites]
I never understood why on the most fundamental level tweets do not present themselves in a logical order.
You'd think it'd be:
Post
Post Reply A
-Reply to comment threaded
Instead it's like
Post Reply to something you can't see and backwards
Post Reply to something you can't see and backwards
Post Reply to something you can't see and backwards
Retweet
Post Reply to a specific comment chain you can't follow and why is it here
Post Reply but backwards
Post Reply but backwards
Post Reply but backwards
posted by GoblinHoney at 10:03 AM on February 13, 2019 [7 favorites]
You'd think it'd be:
Post
Post Reply A
-Reply to comment threaded
Instead it's like
Post Reply to something you can't see and backwards
Post Reply to something you can't see and backwards
Post Reply to something you can't see and backwards
Retweet
Post Reply to a specific comment chain you can't follow and why is it here
Post Reply but backwards
Post Reply but backwards
Post Reply but backwards
posted by GoblinHoney at 10:03 AM on February 13, 2019 [7 favorites]
(i like your poetry, GoblinHoney)
posted by Foci for Analysis at 10:08 AM on February 13, 2019 [23 favorites]
posted by Foci for Analysis at 10:08 AM on February 13, 2019 [23 favorites]
Kara: Let me try it a different way: What historic newsworthy figure would you ban? Is someone bad enough to ban. Be specific. A name.
Jack: We have to enforce based on our policy and what people do on our service. And evolve it with the current times. No way I can answer that based on people. Has to be focused on patterns of how people use the technology.
"And I know what you're probably thinking: what about Hitler? That seems like a no-brainer, right?
Well, we have no way of knowing how Hitler would have used the platform. If he used it to advocate for wiping out an entire race or religion, the algorithm would kick in and he would get a suspension.
If he only used it to post cute animal videos (I hear he was a real dog lover) then of course that would be fine."
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:12 AM on February 13, 2019 [8 favorites]
Jack: We have to enforce based on our policy and what people do on our service. And evolve it with the current times. No way I can answer that based on people. Has to be focused on patterns of how people use the technology.
"And I know what you're probably thinking: what about Hitler? That seems like a no-brainer, right?
Well, we have no way of knowing how Hitler would have used the platform. If he used it to advocate for wiping out an entire race or religion, the algorithm would kick in and he would get a suspension.
If he only used it to post cute animal videos (I hear he was a real dog lover) then of course that would be fine."
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:12 AM on February 13, 2019 [8 favorites]
If Jack were my CEO and the public face of my company, I would have quit ages ago. What an embarrassment.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 10:31 AM on February 13, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 10:31 AM on February 13, 2019 [6 favorites]
The wonderfully ironic thing in this - Jack identifies their core strength as conversation, in the midst of an interview that is impossible to follow on the platform, because it doesn't handle conversation well.
posted by nubs at 10:36 AM on February 13, 2019 [12 favorites]
posted by nubs at 10:36 AM on February 13, 2019 [12 favorites]
Good additional reading is Ashley Feinberg's interview with Jack Dorsey. She opens her writeup with the following commentary:
A conversation with Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey can be incredibly disorienting. Not because heās particularly clever or thought-provoking, but because he sounds like he should be. He takes long pauses before he speaks. He furrows his brow, setting you up for a considered response from the man many have called a genius. The words themselves sound like they should probably mean something, too. Dorsey is just hard enough to follow that itās easy to assume that any confusion is your own fault, and that if you just listen a little more or think a little harder, whatever heās saying will finally start to make sense.
Whether Dorsey does this all deliberately or not, the reason his impassioned defenses of Twitter sound like gibberish is because they are.
posted by entropone at 10:37 AM on February 13, 2019 [31 favorites]
A conversation with Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey can be incredibly disorienting. Not because heās particularly clever or thought-provoking, but because he sounds like he should be. He takes long pauses before he speaks. He furrows his brow, setting you up for a considered response from the man many have called a genius. The words themselves sound like they should probably mean something, too. Dorsey is just hard enough to follow that itās easy to assume that any confusion is your own fault, and that if you just listen a little more or think a little harder, whatever heās saying will finally start to make sense.
Whether Dorsey does this all deliberately or not, the reason his impassioned defenses of Twitter sound like gibberish is because they are.
posted by entropone at 10:37 AM on February 13, 2019 [31 favorites]
from that gizmodo writeup linked above:
posted by murphy slaw at 10:40 AM on February 13, 2019 [14 favorites]
At this point, Dorsey calmly explained that Twitter sees the most abuse happening in āreplies, mentions, search, and trends.ā Careful observers might note that this is the whole goddamn site, aside from Moments and direct messages.ouchie.
posted by murphy slaw at 10:40 AM on February 13, 2019 [14 favorites]
Dave Lee: .@jackās favourite Twitter user is a man who used his platform to falsely accuse someone of being a paedophile.
Additionally, a man who used the platform to commit SEC fraud. Perfect twitter user!
posted by graventy at 10:40 AM on February 13, 2019 [9 favorites]
Additionally, a man who used the platform to commit SEC fraud. Perfect twitter user!
posted by graventy at 10:40 AM on February 13, 2019 [9 favorites]
Affluenza. Got to be.
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:49 AM on February 13, 2019
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:49 AM on February 13, 2019
Fuck @jack
posted by terrapin at 11:06 AM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by terrapin at 11:06 AM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
Gizmodoās write-up of the interview is good:
Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey: I Suck and the Problem Is the Whole Site
(I found it in the still-living Previously).
Iād just like to highlight one of Jackās tweets from the exchange:
posted by chappell, ambrose at 11:06 AM on February 13, 2019 [24 favorites]
Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey: I Suck and the Problem Is the Whole Site
(I found it in the still-living Previously).
Iād just like to highlight one of Jackās tweets from the exchange:
We action all we can against our policies. Most of our system today works reactively to someone reporting it. If they donāt report, we donāt see it. Doesnāt scale. Hence the need to focus on proactive. #KarajackWhat in the fuck does this mean? Is āto actionā a verb, and is it collocated with the preposition āagainstā?? How do you āfocus on proactiveā? How do you become the CEO of a website focused on clear and succinct writing and produce... whatever this is? The guy is a neo-Nazi, and an idiot, and he canāt write.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 11:06 AM on February 13, 2019 [24 favorites]
"Post Reply to a Specific Comment Chain You Can't Follow and Why is it Here" is the name of my Explosions In The Sky cover band.
posted by Foosnark at 11:33 AM on February 13, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by Foosnark at 11:33 AM on February 13, 2019 [9 favorites]
Kara: Let me try it a different way: What historic newsworthy figure would you ban? Is someone bad enough to ban. Be specific. A name.
If Adolf Hitler flew in today / They'd send alimousine blue checkmark anyway
posted by tobascodagama at 11:38 AM on February 13, 2019 [7 favorites]
If Adolf Hitler flew in today / They'd send a
posted by tobascodagama at 11:38 AM on February 13, 2019 [7 favorites]
chappell, ambrose: I understood that entire tweet at first read. Didn't even strike me as clumsy. Now I read your comment, that unnerves me a little.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 11:43 AM on February 13, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 11:43 AM on February 13, 2019 [3 favorites]
chappell, ambrose: What in the fuck does this mean?
Ah, I think I recognize this dialect: late-modern business-ese. Whenever we get the 2010s equivalent of unfrozen 80s business guy, this is what he'll be speaking. In my estimation, the phrase "We action all we can against our policies." can be translated as "We take action against all [the issues?] we can in accordance with our policies." The phrase "Hence the need to focus on proactive." is most likely something like "Hence the need to focus on proactive measures."
Meanwhile, I'd like to point out yet another thing weird here that's not unique to Twitter: this emphasis on "our policies" like it's some kind of magical, inviolable constraint. Facebook, YouTube, Twitch, and probably others all seem to do this too. I mean, whenever anything bad or weird happens on these platforms, they so often default to something like "well, we can't do anything about that bad thing because it didn't violate any of our policies". But their own internal policies aren't laws or civil regulations or anything like that. They're literally made up by these companies themselves. And they also change them all the time! I can't tell if the senior management at these companies have somehow tricked themselves into truly believing that their own internal policies have what amounts to the force of law or if they're just repeating what their PR professionals have told them. But, in any case, there's no reason we (or the journalists interviewing them) should take this deference to internal policy at face value.
posted by mhum at 11:48 AM on February 13, 2019 [19 favorites]
Ah, I think I recognize this dialect: late-modern business-ese. Whenever we get the 2010s equivalent of unfrozen 80s business guy, this is what he'll be speaking. In my estimation, the phrase "We action all we can against our policies." can be translated as "We take action against all [the issues?] we can in accordance with our policies." The phrase "Hence the need to focus on proactive." is most likely something like "Hence the need to focus on proactive measures."
Meanwhile, I'd like to point out yet another thing weird here that's not unique to Twitter: this emphasis on "our policies" like it's some kind of magical, inviolable constraint. Facebook, YouTube, Twitch, and probably others all seem to do this too. I mean, whenever anything bad or weird happens on these platforms, they so often default to something like "well, we can't do anything about that bad thing because it didn't violate any of our policies". But their own internal policies aren't laws or civil regulations or anything like that. They're literally made up by these companies themselves. And they also change them all the time! I can't tell if the senior management at these companies have somehow tricked themselves into truly believing that their own internal policies have what amounts to the force of law or if they're just repeating what their PR professionals have told them. But, in any case, there's no reason we (or the journalists interviewing them) should take this deference to internal policy at face value.
posted by mhum at 11:48 AM on February 13, 2019 [19 favorites]
If Jack were my CEO and the public face of my company, I would have quit ages ago. What an embarrassment.
Worse, Jack is the CEO of two companies: Twitter and Square. And while they're conveniently less than a block away from each other, nothing about the way that arrangement is working out seems to be a success. I mean, I'm also not saying it would be good for Twitter to have a full-time CEO who thinks the most "exciting influential" on the platform is the guy using it to toss off baseless pedophile accusations and commit securities fraud, but the present state of affairs isn't going well either.
posted by zachlipton at 11:48 AM on February 13, 2019
Worse, Jack is the CEO of two companies: Twitter and Square. And while they're conveniently less than a block away from each other, nothing about the way that arrangement is working out seems to be a success. I mean, I'm also not saying it would be good for Twitter to have a full-time CEO who thinks the most "exciting influential" on the platform is the guy using it to toss off baseless pedophile accusations and commit securities fraud, but the present state of affairs isn't going well either.
posted by zachlipton at 11:48 AM on February 13, 2019
We action all we can against our policies. Most of our system today works reactively to someone reporting it. If they donāt report, we donāt see it. Doesnāt scale. Hence the need to focus on proactive. #Karajack
Translation: We ban a small percentage of accounts that are reported. We'll pretend to care about coming up with a more thorough solution, but never do anything about it, because it would cost a lot of money and our stock price would go down.
posted by Automocar at 11:49 AM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
Translation: We ban a small percentage of accounts that are reported. We'll pretend to care about coming up with a more thorough solution, but never do anything about it, because it would cost a lot of money and our stock price would go down.
posted by Automocar at 11:49 AM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
"Eichmannās self-immunizing mixture of anti-Semitic clichĆ©s, his antiquated idiom of German patriotism and the craving for the warriorās honor and dignity, led Arendt to conclude that Eichmann could not āthinkā ā not because he was incapable of rational intelligence but because he could not think for himself beyond clichĆ©s."
posted by gauche at 11:58 AM on February 13, 2019 [16 favorites]
posted by gauche at 11:58 AM on February 13, 2019 [16 favorites]
If you're learning stuff about the platform that you designed, and currently manage, from a fucking staged publicity interview, then let me venture that you're doing it wrong. Like... do they not have a giant user research team? That's where you should be learning stuff, Jack, my extremely dumb friend, not on the fly as you showcase your ass to your entire userbase.
posted by codacorolla at 12:22 PM on February 13, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by codacorolla at 12:22 PM on February 13, 2019 [7 favorites]
I wish I could be paid millions for being an inarticulate, know-nothing tool in public.
posted by kokaku at 12:30 PM on February 13, 2019 [11 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 12:30 PM on February 13, 2019 [11 favorites]
whole interview feels like cut-up of same old platitudes. Every other tweet delivered in special phrasing unique to Twtr&Rorsach omitting "unnecessary" words. Srsly after 1y of Mastodon, so much Twtr sounds like Rorsach's diary now.
posted by egypturnash at 12:49 PM on February 13, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by egypturnash at 12:49 PM on February 13, 2019 [3 favorites]
Everything he says sounds like the worst kind of PR hokum. āSo he's proactive huh?ā
posted by Fizz at 12:49 PM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Fizz at 12:49 PM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
When someone posts Twitter links, fuck it, I'm not even going to click because I'm not paid enough to rearrange those tweets into something that resembles a coherent conversation. Oh, but tweets aren't supposed to be a conversation? Hell, I'd settle for coherent declarations.
The biggest thing wrong with just about all of what counts as social media is that, for all the complaining, so few people can bring themselves to give it up. I don't know whose fault that is, but I'm less inclined to blame the social media platforms themselves. I don't give a fuck about whatever techbro CEO thinks. If you don't like the platform, stop giving it traffic.
posted by 2N2222 at 12:56 PM on February 13, 2019 [4 favorites]
The biggest thing wrong with just about all of what counts as social media is that, for all the complaining, so few people can bring themselves to give it up. I don't know whose fault that is, but I'm less inclined to blame the social media platforms themselves. I don't give a fuck about whatever techbro CEO thinks. If you don't like the platform, stop giving it traffic.
posted by 2N2222 at 12:56 PM on February 13, 2019 [4 favorites]
Twitter makes the Usenet era look like a golden age of enlightened discourse.
posted by ocschwar at 1:09 PM on February 13, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by ocschwar at 1:09 PM on February 13, 2019 [7 favorites]
@jackboot
posted by porn in the woods at 1:16 PM on February 13, 2019
posted by porn in the woods at 1:16 PM on February 13, 2019
I never understood why on the most fundamental level tweets do not present themselves in a logical order.
It's long been known that threading beyond about two levels deep is unmanageable for most normal humans. Tech people can manage it, which leads them to build things like Reddit (and then you find that the conversation mostly just dissolves after about two levels). Twitter makes the same mistake, except because of the character limit, people's initial posts takes the form of a chain of threads, so it can't reliably tell when the first level of threading even is.
Realisitically, Twitter should have focused on monetising the uni-directional social graph they'd built, rather than trying to monetise Twitter the product. To translate: they should have kept Vine, which used Twitter logins, and tried to get people to make more things like Vine.
posted by Merus at 1:19 PM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
It's long been known that threading beyond about two levels deep is unmanageable for most normal humans. Tech people can manage it, which leads them to build things like Reddit (and then you find that the conversation mostly just dissolves after about two levels). Twitter makes the same mistake, except because of the character limit, people's initial posts takes the form of a chain of threads, so it can't reliably tell when the first level of threading even is.
Realisitically, Twitter should have focused on monetising the uni-directional social graph they'd built, rather than trying to monetise Twitter the product. To translate: they should have kept Vine, which used Twitter logins, and tried to get people to make more things like Vine.
posted by Merus at 1:19 PM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
If you don't like the platform, stop giving it traffic.
Your privilege is showing. As has been discussed over and over in these threads, for many social media users, especially those in marginalized groups where a physical presence may not be available, this is their community, their home. And because of how network effects work, moving away from a platform may not be actually possible. Furthermore, even if you can leave, that doesn't stop the platform from existing, from still doing harm.
So no, walking away isn't the answer, and thinking that it can be is a form of privilege.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:22 PM on February 13, 2019 [19 favorites]
Your privilege is showing. As has been discussed over and over in these threads, for many social media users, especially those in marginalized groups where a physical presence may not be available, this is their community, their home. And because of how network effects work, moving away from a platform may not be actually possible. Furthermore, even if you can leave, that doesn't stop the platform from existing, from still doing harm.
So no, walking away isn't the answer, and thinking that it can be is a form of privilege.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:22 PM on February 13, 2019 [19 favorites]
Jack is trash. Twitter the company is trash. Twitter the platform is trash.
But the communities and mutual support networks people have build and are building on this dumpster fire of a site are gold.
Of all the major social sites it has been the most open to be used by marginalised people and communities and that's been its real strength.
That and having the dubious pleasure of seeing how all your favourite comedians from the nineties turning out to be utterly gammon transphobes or brexit bores.
posted by MartinWisse at 1:30 PM on February 13, 2019 [20 favorites]
But the communities and mutual support networks people have build and are building on this dumpster fire of a site are gold.
Of all the major social sites it has been the most open to be used by marginalised people and communities and that's been its real strength.
That and having the dubious pleasure of seeing how all your favourite comedians from the nineties turning out to be utterly gammon transphobes or brexit bores.
posted by MartinWisse at 1:30 PM on February 13, 2019 [20 favorites]
But the communities and mutual support networks people have build and are building on this dumpster fire of a site are gold.
Defintely agree. Back in the day, Chuck D of Public Enemy called rap music the "Black CNN". The idea was that rap was how news and issues (both serious and less so) important to the black community and generally ignored by the mainstream media were disseminated and discussed. I think that it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to identify Twitter as a serving the same kind of purpose today.
posted by mhum at 1:42 PM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
Defintely agree. Back in the day, Chuck D of Public Enemy called rap music the "Black CNN". The idea was that rap was how news and issues (both serious and less so) important to the black community and generally ignored by the mainstream media were disseminated and discussed. I think that it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to identify Twitter as a serving the same kind of purpose today.
posted by mhum at 1:42 PM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
My network of friends and connections on Twitter is generally quite good. I learn a lot, I'm constantly challenged and educated, and they are funny as hell.
Occasionally a Nazi pops in and stirs up shit, but I really think that's on Jack to fix, not on us to leave.
posted by maxsparber at 1:45 PM on February 13, 2019 [3 favorites]
Occasionally a Nazi pops in and stirs up shit, but I really think that's on Jack to fix, not on us to leave.
posted by maxsparber at 1:45 PM on February 13, 2019 [3 favorites]
Hitler? Totally fine on Twitter. Not even joking. World leaders are explicitly not held to the already-low bar that other users are supposed to abide by.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 2:14 PM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 2:14 PM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
Your privilege is showing. As has been discussed over and over in these threads, for many social media users, especially those in marginalized groups where a physical presence may not be available, this is their community, their home. And because of how network effects work, moving away from a platform may not be actually possible. Furthermore, even if you can leave, that doesn't stop the platform from existing, from still doing harm.
So no, walking away isn't the answer, and thinking that it can be is a form of privilege.
Now this is getting silly. If Twitter is a source of richness and fulfillment for you, is it really a problem? If you're concerned that the CEO is evil somehow, and there are people on Twitter that have opinions, well, life is tough sometimes. But if it's enough of an issue, what will it take for you to leave? Because if it really is that dire, you cannot afford to do anything but leave.
Leaving isn't privilege. It's power. Perhaps I'm depriving myself from all the wonders to be found on Twitter. But I don't participate because I simply don't like the interface. I don't even have any moral issue with the it. It's a totally opt-in platform. As a privilege, it's a pretty low bar, and making yourself hostage to it is avoidable.
posted by 2N2222 at 4:02 PM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
Does anyone else think that the tech-bros have their own version of the Asimov-Clarke Treaty?
Grant me strength.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 4:56 PM on February 13, 2019
Grant me strength.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 4:56 PM on February 13, 2019
What in the fuck does this mean? Is āto actionā a verb, and is it collocated with the preposition āagainstā?? How do you āfocus on proactiveā? How do you become the CEO of a website focused on clear and succinct writing and produce... whatever this is?
Allow me to recommend a book to you.
Don Watson, Death Sentence: The Decay of Public Language
posted by flabdablet at 2:50 AM on February 14, 2019
Allow me to recommend a book to you.
Don Watson, Death Sentence: The Decay of Public Language
posted by flabdablet at 2:50 AM on February 14, 2019
And yes, Jack is apparently trying to noun "proactive" as has already happened to "spend". You can't blame him for "action" though; it was verbed quite some time ago, though more recently than "impact" and "access". English does this kind of thing on the regular.
posted by flabdablet at 3:06 AM on February 14, 2019
posted by flabdablet at 3:06 AM on February 14, 2019
There are now three new unsolvable problems in Computer Science:
- Banning Nazis
- Paying women the same as their male counterparts
- Showing posts in chronological order
Leaving isn't privilege. It's power.
No, it's privilege. It's the privilege of having other places to get support, so you can leave - something that marginalized groups on social media don't have the option of. As has been discussed before, there are many groups who have created entire communities on Twitter and other social media because of being geographically spread out - communities built with significant labor. They don't have the option to walk away, because walking away means losing that labor, and because it means that they let those who would push them out win.
Furthermore, as I said previously, walking away from Twitter doesn't make Twitter disappear. You still have a cesspit of hate attacking people regardless of whether you have walked away or not. All that you have done is decided to wash your hands of the matter, instead of actually engaging and trying to fix things.
So yeah, leaving is a privilege, based on not having any real investment and being willing to turn one's back to the problems occurring. The idea that people can easily switch social media services is a lie, a pernicious one that continues to persist even in light of all the evidence to the contrary.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:22 AM on February 14, 2019
No, it's privilege. It's the privilege of having other places to get support, so you can leave - something that marginalized groups on social media don't have the option of. As has been discussed before, there are many groups who have created entire communities on Twitter and other social media because of being geographically spread out - communities built with significant labor. They don't have the option to walk away, because walking away means losing that labor, and because it means that they let those who would push them out win.
Furthermore, as I said previously, walking away from Twitter doesn't make Twitter disappear. You still have a cesspit of hate attacking people regardless of whether you have walked away or not. All that you have done is decided to wash your hands of the matter, instead of actually engaging and trying to fix things.
So yeah, leaving is a privilege, based on not having any real investment and being willing to turn one's back to the problems occurring. The idea that people can easily switch social media services is a lie, a pernicious one that continues to persist even in light of all the evidence to the contrary.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:22 AM on February 14, 2019
Back in the day, Chuck D of Public Enemy called rap music the "Black CNN". The idea was that rap was how news and issues (both serious and less so) important to the black community and generally ignored by the mainstream media were disseminated and discussed.
So more of a...
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...Run DMCNN
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posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 8:47 AM on February 14, 2019 [1 favorite]
So more of a...
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...Run DMCNN
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posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 8:47 AM on February 14, 2019 [1 favorite]
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Which is weird because Twitter is usually such a well-ordered civil exchange of ideas.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:07 AM on February 13, 2019 [14 favorites]