Strong as hell
February 21, 2019 9:11 AM Subscribe
This post was deleted for the following reason: Poster's Request -- frimble
Well, now I'm crying at my work desk.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 9:17 AM on February 21, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 9:17 AM on February 21, 2019 [4 favorites]
Just when you begin to feel crushed by this world, amazing people do an amazing thing and you find yourself smiling again. So cool.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:17 AM on February 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Thorzdad at 9:17 AM on February 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
I dropped in at solcana fitness a couple years ago for a workout w an old friend and got the clear and distinct impression that its a super open and welcoming place, so this doesnt really surprise me all that much.
fuck the announcer: Sadly the announcer refused to name the nine who stood in solidarity.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 9:33 AM on February 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
fuck the announcer: Sadly the announcer refused to name the nine who stood in solidarity.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 9:33 AM on February 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
Hey, my friend participated in this! Here is what she shared on FB (she agreed to have it shared here as well):
Here I am not lifting at yesterday’s USAPL MN Women’s State meet. And here I am not lifting in the USAPL until it lifts its unjust and poorly founded ban on trans athletes.
Yesterday we had something like a dozen lifters from at least two gyms run out their time on the platform in solidarity with our teammate JayCee, who was prevented from competing because she is transgender.
I’d describe the atmosphere at the meet as a wave of support overtaking some expected currents of tension. Despite some truly embarrassing communications from USAPL pres Larry Maile seemingly designed to instill fear that we were planning to garrote innocent lifters with trans pride flags, meet officials were largely lovely in helping us hold space to reflect/protest the absence of trans lifters. The athletes in the morning session faced some boos from a few dinguses in the stands and there was some fun passive aggression from one of the meet announcers, but other than that, we encountered very little hostility and maybe just a little more confusion.
Since this story has spread beyond local powerlifting circles, I thought I’d try to address a few points of confusion I’ve seen surface from people who have maybe just never had much reason to think about this stuff before (knowing that I’m probably preaching mostly to the choir here, but ahh oh well, opinions are happening anyway). A ramshackle FAQ:
“Don’t trans women have an obvious strength advantage?” This has the ring of common sense to a lot of people unfamiliar with the process of medical transition, but that doesn’t mean it’s true. What science exists so far suggests that, as the Women’s Sports Foundation puts it, “The effects of taking female hormones negate any strength and muscular advantage that testosterone may have provided and places a male-to-female transgender athlete who has completed her transition in the same general range of strength and performance exhibited by nontransgender females who are competing.”
That consensus is reflected in the policies of no less an athletic body than the International Olympic Committee, which allows trans men to compete without restriction and trans women to compete as long as they can demonstrate testosterone levels within the allowed limit for at least a year prior to and throughout the period of competition.
This point deserves emphasis: we’re not asking for some weird, wild new gender-free utopia. It shouldn’t take a gargantuan effort for USAPL to bring their policies in line with an increasing number of other sporting organizations (including our neighboring IPF affiliate the Canadian Powerlifting Union which, last I heard, has not imploded under the weight of the obligation to treat trans lifters fairly).
“But you know there are RULES, right?” Yeah. As members of a tested federation with regulations on everything from the brand of singlet you can wear to the position of your feet during the bench press, we are amply aware of that fact—none more than JayCee, who was disqualified only after going through the USAPL’s therapeutic use exemption process and submitting years of medical records documenting her testosterone levels. In fact, the anti-trans policy that now appears on the USAPL website was not a matter of public record until late January of this year. JayCee’s attempt to do things by the book is precisely what triggered USAPL’s reaction.
Engaging in protest does not preclude working simultaneously through more bureaucratic channels, and Solcana has been doing both. As lifters we know that getting big things to move takes sustained, controlled force, and we didn’t go in expecting everything to change overnight. Our action yesterday emerged from the failure of USAPL to make even a token gesture of serious engagement with our requests before the meet. But we’ll keep trying.
“Isn’t protesting kind of a jerky thing to do to everyone else at the meet?” Even within our team, no one was obligated to participate in the protest; that we all did was a product of conscience, not peer pressure. Team Solcana cheered as loud as anyone for the lifters who chose to compete yesterday, and even tried to minimize the impact on the loaders by submitting the weight of the empty bar for our attempts. Heck, I abstained from Girl Scout cookies—Peanut Butter Patties!—before weigh-in because I didn’t want to risk inconveniencing the meet director by moving up a weight class.
We know that USAPL is filled with excellent people motivated and compensated by little more than the love of a decidedly unglamorous sport. Everything we’re doing now is a measure of how much we *want* to be able to stay in this federation as lifters, judges, coaches, volunteers. I hope we get to.
posted by treefort at 9:36 AM on February 21, 2019 [59 favorites]
Here I am not lifting at yesterday’s USAPL MN Women’s State meet. And here I am not lifting in the USAPL until it lifts its unjust and poorly founded ban on trans athletes.
Yesterday we had something like a dozen lifters from at least two gyms run out their time on the platform in solidarity with our teammate JayCee, who was prevented from competing because she is transgender.
I’d describe the atmosphere at the meet as a wave of support overtaking some expected currents of tension. Despite some truly embarrassing communications from USAPL pres Larry Maile seemingly designed to instill fear that we were planning to garrote innocent lifters with trans pride flags, meet officials were largely lovely in helping us hold space to reflect/protest the absence of trans lifters. The athletes in the morning session faced some boos from a few dinguses in the stands and there was some fun passive aggression from one of the meet announcers, but other than that, we encountered very little hostility and maybe just a little more confusion.
Since this story has spread beyond local powerlifting circles, I thought I’d try to address a few points of confusion I’ve seen surface from people who have maybe just never had much reason to think about this stuff before (knowing that I’m probably preaching mostly to the choir here, but ahh oh well, opinions are happening anyway). A ramshackle FAQ:
“Don’t trans women have an obvious strength advantage?” This has the ring of common sense to a lot of people unfamiliar with the process of medical transition, but that doesn’t mean it’s true. What science exists so far suggests that, as the Women’s Sports Foundation puts it, “The effects of taking female hormones negate any strength and muscular advantage that testosterone may have provided and places a male-to-female transgender athlete who has completed her transition in the same general range of strength and performance exhibited by nontransgender females who are competing.”
That consensus is reflected in the policies of no less an athletic body than the International Olympic Committee, which allows trans men to compete without restriction and trans women to compete as long as they can demonstrate testosterone levels within the allowed limit for at least a year prior to and throughout the period of competition.
This point deserves emphasis: we’re not asking for some weird, wild new gender-free utopia. It shouldn’t take a gargantuan effort for USAPL to bring their policies in line with an increasing number of other sporting organizations (including our neighboring IPF affiliate the Canadian Powerlifting Union which, last I heard, has not imploded under the weight of the obligation to treat trans lifters fairly).
“But you know there are RULES, right?” Yeah. As members of a tested federation with regulations on everything from the brand of singlet you can wear to the position of your feet during the bench press, we are amply aware of that fact—none more than JayCee, who was disqualified only after going through the USAPL’s therapeutic use exemption process and submitting years of medical records documenting her testosterone levels. In fact, the anti-trans policy that now appears on the USAPL website was not a matter of public record until late January of this year. JayCee’s attempt to do things by the book is precisely what triggered USAPL’s reaction.
Engaging in protest does not preclude working simultaneously through more bureaucratic channels, and Solcana has been doing both. As lifters we know that getting big things to move takes sustained, controlled force, and we didn’t go in expecting everything to change overnight. Our action yesterday emerged from the failure of USAPL to make even a token gesture of serious engagement with our requests before the meet. But we’ll keep trying.
“Isn’t protesting kind of a jerky thing to do to everyone else at the meet?” Even within our team, no one was obligated to participate in the protest; that we all did was a product of conscience, not peer pressure. Team Solcana cheered as loud as anyone for the lifters who chose to compete yesterday, and even tried to minimize the impact on the loaders by submitting the weight of the empty bar for our attempts. Heck, I abstained from Girl Scout cookies—Peanut Butter Patties!—before weigh-in because I didn’t want to risk inconveniencing the meet director by moving up a weight class.
We know that USAPL is filled with excellent people motivated and compensated by little more than the love of a decidedly unglamorous sport. Everything we’re doing now is a measure of how much we *want* to be able to stay in this federation as lifters, judges, coaches, volunteers. I hope we get to.
posted by treefort at 9:36 AM on February 21, 2019 [59 favorites]
As someone who is well outside competitive athletic circles, I've been wondering how trans and other gender issues are playing out and where people see things going. I hope others on metafilter have relevant stories to share and I'll be keenly reading the comments on this thread.
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 9:41 AM on February 21, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 9:41 AM on February 21, 2019 [4 favorites]
It's so heartening to hear about stuff like this! My partner is a trans athlete, and she's also had generally supportive/nbd responses from folks in her sport, it's only media and outside commenters who've been weird about it.
posted by ITheCosmos at 9:50 AM on February 21, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by ITheCosmos at 9:50 AM on February 21, 2019 [4 favorites]
Does anyone have any actual proof that going through male puberty is, undeniably, always an advantage? From what I have learned, the difference between the weakest male and the strongest male is significantly greater than the difference between the strongest male and strongest female. That is, variations within the same sex are greater than variations between athletic people of different sexes. Being born male doesn't automatically guarantee being more athletic than someone born female.
posted by FirstMateKate at 10:20 AM on February 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by FirstMateKate at 10:20 AM on February 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
The article links to an earlier article about the ban, which has some discussion about whether trans athletes have an advantage.
This is a different discussion than whether men (in general) have an advantage over women (in general) in sports. That depends on the sport and the athlete. But it is certainly the case that men do better in general in many sports, whether you believe that will always the case or not (e.g. how much you think depends on culture/training, how much you think depends on which skills are valued, etc). Individual variation is huge, but there are still significant group differences.
This is not a good reason to exclude trans athletes, though - and many organizations do not.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:31 AM on February 21, 2019
This is a different discussion than whether men (in general) have an advantage over women (in general) in sports. That depends on the sport and the athlete. But it is certainly the case that men do better in general in many sports, whether you believe that will always the case or not (e.g. how much you think depends on culture/training, how much you think depends on which skills are valued, etc). Individual variation is huge, but there are still significant group differences.
This is not a good reason to exclude trans athletes, though - and many organizations do not.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:31 AM on February 21, 2019
While the guidelines discussed and adopted by other federations seem like good first steps to avoid the type of needless exclusion USAPL is currently creating, hormone testing and caps and the like are hardly clearly fair.
See for example the international track and field federations recent rules changes requiring female athletes to medically lower their blood testosterone levels to an arbitrary point determined by the federation.
You can tell this rule is directed pretty much exclusively at Caster Semenya, a South African athlete, because the ruling narrowly applies to only the events in which she has competed.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 10:40 AM on February 21, 2019 [7 favorites]
See for example the international track and field federations recent rules changes requiring female athletes to medically lower their blood testosterone levels to an arbitrary point determined by the federation.
You can tell this rule is directed pretty much exclusively at Caster Semenya, a South African athlete, because the ruling narrowly applies to only the events in which she has competed.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 10:40 AM on February 21, 2019 [7 favorites]
Does anyone have any actual proof that going through male puberty is, undeniably, always an advantage?
In a study of ~14,000 Air Force applicants from 2002-2008 (~11k male, ~4k female*) taking a standardized strength test, the Cohen's d between male and female applicants was 2.65. That's a pretty big difference. You can visualize that here by setting d to 2.6 or 2.7. A d of 2.6 means:
a ~19% overlap between the two populations (i.e. 19% of the male and female applicants scored the same)
and that there is a ~97% chance that a randomly selected male applicant would score better than a randomly selected female applicant
So, no, not undeniably, always an advantage, though it is a pretty significant one, at least as measured by that one test of that one population. However, I don't know if there's much value in generalizing from primarily cis population differences to the question of whether a trans woman would have (in some sense) an "unfair" advantage.
* Yes, this is a binary classification, and there were no doubt trans, intersex, and NB applicants in that population. A 2015 study of LGBT identity among US service members found the population of trans service members to be 0.6%. I assume it was lower in the 2002 - 2008 period (i.e. prior to the Obama administration allowing trans soldiers to serve openly), but almost certainly not 0.
posted by jedicus at 10:48 AM on February 21, 2019 [4 favorites]
In a study of ~14,000 Air Force applicants from 2002-2008 (~11k male, ~4k female*) taking a standardized strength test, the Cohen's d between male and female applicants was 2.65. That's a pretty big difference. You can visualize that here by setting d to 2.6 or 2.7. A d of 2.6 means:
a ~19% overlap between the two populations (i.e. 19% of the male and female applicants scored the same)
and that there is a ~97% chance that a randomly selected male applicant would score better than a randomly selected female applicant
So, no, not undeniably, always an advantage, though it is a pretty significant one, at least as measured by that one test of that one population. However, I don't know if there's much value in generalizing from primarily cis population differences to the question of whether a trans woman would have (in some sense) an "unfair" advantage.
* Yes, this is a binary classification, and there were no doubt trans, intersex, and NB applicants in that population. A 2015 study of LGBT identity among US service members found the population of trans service members to be 0.6%. I assume it was lower in the 2002 - 2008 period (i.e. prior to the Obama administration allowing trans soldiers to serve openly), but almost certainly not 0.
posted by jedicus at 10:48 AM on February 21, 2019 [4 favorites]
After two years on trans femme hrt, muscles and so on are basically identical to a cisgender woman's. The skeleton doesn't change much, so that's the last area of doubt, but there's tall women, women with broad shoulders, and women who aren't very flexible.
I kind of wonder if cis women actually have the advantage since their hormones are naturally a ratio of estrogen and testosterone. Weight lifting leads the endocrine system to make more testosterone (not enough you'd grow a beard, but a stress response that helps with muscle growth). I imagine the most competitive powerlifters could have naturally high testosterone.
Meanwhile, trans women are expected to monitor and limit their testosterone medically or surgically, and many feel terrible if their testosterone rises (like myself). When my dosages are right, a cis woman has more testosterone.
There's probably some sports that can be elite competitive and co ed, but powerlifting isn't it. I felt myself become weaker on hrt, and it's hard to increase my lifts at the gym. I'm always dead last in my running group.
Lastly, I'd like to explain my relationship to lifting weight. I'm getting grs in two months, and I really want to do what I can to help recovery go better. So, I've started doing compound lifts in a strength training program. I'm not out at work, and go to the same gym as most of my coworkers. But I'm not sure if I pass 100%. But my coworkers who lift and the gym regulars have been nothing but kind to my weak, wobbly self over the past 4 months or so. I'm really glad to see that the jockish stereotypes aren't actually true, at least in my area. They're just people who like being strong or looking good, and like to help others do the same.
posted by ikea_femme at 10:51 AM on February 21, 2019 [22 favorites]
I kind of wonder if cis women actually have the advantage since their hormones are naturally a ratio of estrogen and testosterone. Weight lifting leads the endocrine system to make more testosterone (not enough you'd grow a beard, but a stress response that helps with muscle growth). I imagine the most competitive powerlifters could have naturally high testosterone.
Meanwhile, trans women are expected to monitor and limit their testosterone medically or surgically, and many feel terrible if their testosterone rises (like myself). When my dosages are right, a cis woman has more testosterone.
There's probably some sports that can be elite competitive and co ed, but powerlifting isn't it. I felt myself become weaker on hrt, and it's hard to increase my lifts at the gym. I'm always dead last in my running group.
Lastly, I'd like to explain my relationship to lifting weight. I'm getting grs in two months, and I really want to do what I can to help recovery go better. So, I've started doing compound lifts in a strength training program. I'm not out at work, and go to the same gym as most of my coworkers. But I'm not sure if I pass 100%. But my coworkers who lift and the gym regulars have been nothing but kind to my weak, wobbly self over the past 4 months or so. I'm really glad to see that the jockish stereotypes aren't actually true, at least in my area. They're just people who like being strong or looking good, and like to help others do the same.
posted by ikea_femme at 10:51 AM on February 21, 2019 [22 favorites]
There is no way that cis men, generally, do not have an advantage over cis women, generally, in powerlifting. I have no knowledge about how trans athletes are affected and I do not care, this is not an issue and it never has been one, just let them compete, no one is pretending to be trans to get some sport advantage.
Looking at her lifts, I mean, she's not particularly out of the mainstream? At MUCH older and not competing I can almost match her squat and deadlift, and I know lots of women who can do more than she can. It sure doesn't seem like she has this huge trans woman advantage. Her bench is incredible.
posted by jeather at 10:57 AM on February 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
Looking at her lifts, I mean, she's not particularly out of the mainstream? At MUCH older and not competing I can almost match her squat and deadlift, and I know lots of women who can do more than she can. It sure doesn't seem like she has this huge trans woman advantage. Her bench is incredible.
posted by jeather at 10:57 AM on February 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
From the USA Powerlifting Transgender Participation Policy: "Through analysis the impact of maturation in the presence naturally occurring androgens as the level necessary for male development [sic], significant advantages are had, including but not limited to increased body and muscle mass, bone density, bone structure, and connective tissue. ... Men naturally have a larger bone structure, higher bone density, stronger connective tissue and higher muscle density than women. These traits, even with reduced levels of testosterone do not go away." (No sources are cited.)
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 11:05 AM on February 21, 2019
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 11:05 AM on February 21, 2019
kalessin, FWIW, I am going to compete in USPA (which is not perfect but is inclusive). I will not compete with USAPL until and unless they fix this.
posted by Medieval Maven at 11:50 AM on February 21, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by Medieval Maven at 11:50 AM on February 21, 2019 [3 favorites]
Men naturally have a larger bone structure, higher bone density, stronger connective tissue and higher muscle density than women. These traits, even with reduced levels of testosterone do not go away.
And there we have it, the real reason for USAPL's position, clearly stated: they think trans women are men.
Never thought I'd say these words in this order, but: I am a fan of this powerlifting team.
posted by Dysk at 12:55 PM on February 21, 2019 [13 favorites]
And there we have it, the real reason for USAPL's position, clearly stated: they think trans women are men.
Never thought I'd say these words in this order, but: I am a fan of this powerlifting team.
posted by Dysk at 12:55 PM on February 21, 2019 [13 favorites]
For clarity, my "I never thought I'd say this..." is because I am very much not into powerlifting (or any lifting) as a support, so I'm surprised to be invested in a lifting team, not to impugn lifters generally in any way!
posted by Dysk at 1:45 PM on February 21, 2019
posted by Dysk at 1:45 PM on February 21, 2019
My sport -- archery -- should be easy to make inclusive, if only authorities would make the divisions by weight of archery equipment and not by the gender of the archers. I have no idea how this change would happen, or if anyone is already working on it. I'd love to be pointed in the right direction.
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:56 PM on February 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:56 PM on February 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
As lifters we know that getting big things to move takes sustained, controlled force, and we didn’t go in expecting everything to change overnight.
Weight lifters are poets.
posted by straight at 2:08 PM on February 21, 2019 [3 favorites]
Weight lifters are poets.
posted by straight at 2:08 PM on February 21, 2019 [3 favorites]
Hats off to these lifters - training for a meet takes months and months of work, and to stand in protest like this really is a big deal.
Diversity and inclusiveness helps everyone - it helped me when I started lifting, and I am the embodiment of the stereotypical powerlifter - white, male, 300+ pounds. But when I showed up to some strongman classes the stereotypes in my head were from those stupid Planet Fitness commercials: bodybuilding gym bros. Turns out 50% of the class were women, and I saw people working out in the gym that were young, old, queer, men, women, everyone. Seeing that this was an environment where those people felt comfortable helped me feel comfortable. I was no longer the scared, intimidated fat kid!
The environment at a powerlifting gym is so different from a commercial gym - everyone talks, helps new members, and cheers for each other. It's a small community, and it's been life changing for me.
I switched to the USPA from USAPL before this and for this and related reasons. USAPL isn't where I want to spend my money or time, but I hope these lifters are able to drive change in the organization.
posted by Skrubly at 4:14 PM on February 21, 2019 [3 favorites]
Diversity and inclusiveness helps everyone - it helped me when I started lifting, and I am the embodiment of the stereotypical powerlifter - white, male, 300+ pounds. But when I showed up to some strongman classes the stereotypes in my head were from those stupid Planet Fitness commercials: bodybuilding gym bros. Turns out 50% of the class were women, and I saw people working out in the gym that were young, old, queer, men, women, everyone. Seeing that this was an environment where those people felt comfortable helped me feel comfortable. I was no longer the scared, intimidated fat kid!
The environment at a powerlifting gym is so different from a commercial gym - everyone talks, helps new members, and cheers for each other. It's a small community, and it's been life changing for me.
I switched to the USPA from USAPL before this and for this and related reasons. USAPL isn't where I want to spend my money or time, but I hope these lifters are able to drive change in the organization.
posted by Skrubly at 4:14 PM on February 21, 2019 [3 favorites]
The USAPL rules should just be about chemicals (estrogen, testosterone, etc) and leave gender out of it.
posted by yaymukund at 5:17 PM on February 21, 2019
posted by yaymukund at 5:17 PM on February 21, 2019
It's precisely those kinds of rules re: chemical levels that is now attempting to force South African runner Caster Semenya to take anti-androgenic drugs.
The rules affecting Caster Semenya are gendered, so that’s definitely not what I’m suggesting. No athlete should have to choose between taking hormones and being disqualified or misgendered. In fact, that would be a great starting point for a set of rules that aren’t built from gender.
posted by yaymukund at 6:00 AM on February 22, 2019
The rules affecting Caster Semenya are gendered, so that’s definitely not what I’m suggesting. No athlete should have to choose between taking hormones and being disqualified or misgendered. In fact, that would be a great starting point for a set of rules that aren’t built from gender.
posted by yaymukund at 6:00 AM on February 22, 2019
I gotta say, I don't much care for things being suddenly degendered because trans people come along and suddenly it's all too complicated, let's just avoid anything where we have to call trans women women.
posted by Dysk at 6:33 AM on February 22, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 6:33 AM on February 22, 2019 [4 favorites]
Dysk, there would still be rules against discriminating against people based on gender or trans status. There would still be gendered changing rooms. This would all be trans inclusive. It's just that the actual mechanics of the sport don't seem to depend on gender.
Are you suggesting then, instead, they have different "weight" classes? As in, "you've got a bone density of x, t level of y, and weight of z, so you compete in the Dragoon class" irrespective of gender?
That's what I had in mind when I posted my original suggestion.
posted by yaymukund at 7:10 AM on February 22, 2019
Are you suggesting then, instead, they have different "weight" classes? As in, "you've got a bone density of x, t level of y, and weight of z, so you compete in the Dragoon class" irrespective of gender?
That's what I had in mind when I posted my original suggestion.
posted by yaymukund at 7:10 AM on February 22, 2019
Yeah, I understood what you meant yaymukund. It leaves a taste of "oh we can't call this class 'women' if you trans people are involved!" however you try to slice it. Trans women are women. Let them compete as women.
posted by Dysk at 7:38 AM on February 22, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 7:38 AM on February 22, 2019 [2 favorites]
For the record, I don't think my initial suggestion is a good idea anymore because I don't think any professional sports organization should be in the business of measuring anyone's hormone levels.
Anyway, I think that's as close to agreement as we'll get so I'm going to bow out of this.
posted by yaymukund at 7:48 AM on February 22, 2019
Anyway, I think that's as close to agreement as we'll get so I'm going to bow out of this.
posted by yaymukund at 7:48 AM on February 22, 2019
Kalessin, if you're interested in crunching numbers for powerlifting, openpowerlifting.org makes their competition results datasets available for just that type of analysis.
To compare lifters across gender and weightclasses, a formula is used to compensate for the differences, to provide a number that indicates relative strength. The most popular is the Wilks Coeffecient. The IPF (which is where USAPL athletes feed into for the World Games/international competition) is actually changing to a different formula. There are lots of discussions about the comparisons between formulas and how they favor/disfavor certain weightclasses, etc.
In terms of absolute numbers of pounds/kilos lifted, the difference between men and women powerlifters is fairly stark. I am a complete non-entity in competitive powerlifting - the most charitable ranking you could give me given my age, gender, and weightclass would be ~900 out of 1500 comparative lifters. But from a raw pounds lifted perspective, there are only four women of any age/weightclass that have a higher total than me. Their Wilks scores are vastly different - I have a wilks of roughly 350, which means I wouldn't even come close to qualifying for USAPL nationals let alone worlds (I'd need a wilks of about 430 for that). The woman that has the most similar raw pound total to me is Kristy Hawkins - her Wilks is 616!
For me to be ranked better than Kristy Hawkins by Wilks points in a competition I would have to lift a total of 2430 pounds. Who on earth could lift that much? Answer: Ray Williams, current #1 ranked male powerlifter by raw total with a total of 2434lbs. His wilks is 593, because he weighs 400lbs. Higher bodyweight so lower wilks. (Eric Lilliebridge is #1 by Wilks with 601).
The thing that I like most about powerlifting is that the competition is primarily against ourselves - I'm trying to beat my total from last meet, and I'm not really comparing myself much to other people. The fact that I'm healthy enough to do this and have found an activity I enjoy with a great community of people is just so amazing. Everyone at my gym knows that what is heavy for each of us is different, but we're all looking to progress.
I take inspiration from a lot of different lifters and the raw numbers of what they lift usually doesn't matter in my mind.
My favorite lifters in no particular order:
Bonica Brown - Currently ranked #3 in the world I think, super heavyweight woman and multiple world record holder
Kim Walford - Incredibly strong, the nicest person I have ever met, and setter and smasher of world records over and over again. Watching her lift in person is absolutely amazing
Ray Williams - Second nicest person I've ever met, he squats over 1000lbs and he helps athletes warm up and gives advice - it's like Michael Jordan giving you basketball tips
Amanda Lawrence - Devastating squat power
Brian Shaw - Worlds Strongest Man winner, he has an amazing attitude and he learned to sew to make his own strongman equipment. Eats 10,000 calories per day but can still play basketball.
posted by Skrubly at 9:50 AM on February 22, 2019 [3 favorites]
To compare lifters across gender and weightclasses, a formula is used to compensate for the differences, to provide a number that indicates relative strength. The most popular is the Wilks Coeffecient. The IPF (which is where USAPL athletes feed into for the World Games/international competition) is actually changing to a different formula. There are lots of discussions about the comparisons between formulas and how they favor/disfavor certain weightclasses, etc.
In terms of absolute numbers of pounds/kilos lifted, the difference between men and women powerlifters is fairly stark. I am a complete non-entity in competitive powerlifting - the most charitable ranking you could give me given my age, gender, and weightclass would be ~900 out of 1500 comparative lifters. But from a raw pounds lifted perspective, there are only four women of any age/weightclass that have a higher total than me. Their Wilks scores are vastly different - I have a wilks of roughly 350, which means I wouldn't even come close to qualifying for USAPL nationals let alone worlds (I'd need a wilks of about 430 for that). The woman that has the most similar raw pound total to me is Kristy Hawkins - her Wilks is 616!
For me to be ranked better than Kristy Hawkins by Wilks points in a competition I would have to lift a total of 2430 pounds. Who on earth could lift that much? Answer: Ray Williams, current #1 ranked male powerlifter by raw total with a total of 2434lbs. His wilks is 593, because he weighs 400lbs. Higher bodyweight so lower wilks. (Eric Lilliebridge is #1 by Wilks with 601).
The thing that I like most about powerlifting is that the competition is primarily against ourselves - I'm trying to beat my total from last meet, and I'm not really comparing myself much to other people. The fact that I'm healthy enough to do this and have found an activity I enjoy with a great community of people is just so amazing. Everyone at my gym knows that what is heavy for each of us is different, but we're all looking to progress.
I take inspiration from a lot of different lifters and the raw numbers of what they lift usually doesn't matter in my mind.
My favorite lifters in no particular order:
Bonica Brown - Currently ranked #3 in the world I think, super heavyweight woman and multiple world record holder
Kim Walford - Incredibly strong, the nicest person I have ever met, and setter and smasher of world records over and over again. Watching her lift in person is absolutely amazing
Ray Williams - Second nicest person I've ever met, he squats over 1000lbs and he helps athletes warm up and gives advice - it's like Michael Jordan giving you basketball tips
Amanda Lawrence - Devastating squat power
Brian Shaw - Worlds Strongest Man winner, he has an amazing attitude and he learned to sew to make his own strongman equipment. Eats 10,000 calories per day but can still play basketball.
posted by Skrubly at 9:50 AM on February 22, 2019 [3 favorites]
I wonder how non-binary or genderqueer athletes would prefer to compete in these types of sports. Google has shown one group that has a third category (which is optional), Mx, and one athlete who just says they should be allowed to choose whether they play with men or women, but that is not exactly a lot of people.
posted by jeather at 10:17 AM on February 22, 2019
posted by jeather at 10:17 AM on February 22, 2019
As a cis woman lifter, I would be discouraged if we went gender-less. But I also don't like either-or absolutes when it comes to gender, not just competition-wise. Non-binary erasure is a thing. If we keep this binary setup, this will just mean that there is a cis men's competition, and then an 'everybody else' one. How can we be inclusive without being unfair?
Testosterone is a performance-enhancing drug, while estrogen just destroys your muscle mass. Hormones are such an important thing for gender confirmation. We can't suddenly decide that they don't effect our body's abilities. Hormones have a profound impact on our bodies, whether 'homemade' or 'store-bought'. I'm not sure we need to even make that distinction. We don't divide competitors who make their own insulin from diabetics who need insulin as a prescription.
posted by domo at 12:10 PM on February 22, 2019
Testosterone is a performance-enhancing drug, while estrogen just destroys your muscle mass. Hormones are such an important thing for gender confirmation. We can't suddenly decide that they don't effect our body's abilities. Hormones have a profound impact on our bodies, whether 'homemade' or 'store-bought'. I'm not sure we need to even make that distinction. We don't divide competitors who make their own insulin from diabetics who need insulin as a prescription.
posted by domo at 12:10 PM on February 22, 2019
I don’t mean to say we can’t have a women’s class in sports if trans women are included, and I apologize if I implied that. My thought is that gender doesn’t make sense as a way of dividing people in some sports anyway, and that getting rid of gender as a factor would allow everyone to compete with their peers in more accurate groups.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:33 PM on February 22, 2019
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:33 PM on February 22, 2019
I suspect you'll generally get further with that kind of suggestion if you raise it in contexts that aren't to do with controversies or trans women. Because however well intentioned, the whole "abolish gendering" idea does not look good when it's being brought up as a response to trans women competing.
posted by Dysk at 4:10 AM on February 23, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 4:10 AM on February 23, 2019 [4 favorites]
> I suspect you'll generally get further with that kind of suggestion if you raise it in contexts that aren't to do with controversies or trans women
That was thoughtless of me. Thank you for pointing it out so clearly.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:49 AM on February 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
That was thoughtless of me. Thank you for pointing it out so clearly.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:49 AM on February 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
Greg Nog, here is a good video from Rogue from a few years ago about Brian Shaw, at around 3:00 he talks about sewing: Brian Shaw Road To The Arnold 2016. In strongman, one of the common implements is the Atlas Stone which is a large cement sphere. Picking them up involves hugging them fairly tight, and you can use a tacky substance on your forearms to help grab them. Between the cement and the tacky it tears up your arms pretty bad, especially if you're doing a lot of reps - so, he decided to make forearm sleeves specifically for training stones. He learned to sew, and started making them for other competitors.
If I did more strongman stuff I'd definitely get his sleeves - I get contact dermatitis from stones, tacky, almost anything.
posted by Skrubly at 9:35 AM on February 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
If I did more strongman stuff I'd definitely get his sleeves - I get contact dermatitis from stones, tacky, almost anything.
posted by Skrubly at 9:35 AM on February 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
That's interesting, because if exogenous testosterone matters so much, how are trans men allowed to compete given doping rules? (Just to reiterate: I have no issues with trans athletes, men or women, competing alongside their cis counterparts. I'm curious about the nitty gritty of how the rules interact, I do not have any vested interest in any particular rules nor is my question meant to suggest I support the current rules.)
I did those stupid atlas stones once when I was curious about it and some friends were doing it -- just the lighter, smaller stone -- and I had massive bruising for ages. No issue with the tacky stuff except a slight stain on my shirt. I don't know how they do it.
posted by jeather at 9:45 AM on February 25, 2019
I did those stupid atlas stones once when I was curious about it and some friends were doing it -- just the lighter, smaller stone -- and I had massive bruising for ages. No issue with the tacky stuff except a slight stain on my shirt. I don't know how they do it.
posted by jeather at 9:45 AM on February 25, 2019
Cool, thanks. (Again, totally fine with trans men competing with other men, do not have issues with them competing while using drugs that are generally off-limits to athletes.)
posted by jeather at 12:08 PM on February 25, 2019
posted by jeather at 12:08 PM on February 25, 2019
Here's What’s at Stake in the Caster Semenya Case "Here's a breakdown of both sides of the debate." (Outside Online)
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 10:49 AM on February 27, 2019
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 10:49 AM on February 27, 2019
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posted by Medieval Maven at 9:15 AM on February 21, 2019 [5 favorites]