Robert Crumb: 'I am no longer a slave to a raging libido'
March 7, 2019 5:32 PM Subscribe
The Guardian: The controversial artist talks about his latest exhibition, how his feelings on Trump have changed and why he has stopped drawing women.
Don’t miss his anti-Trump strip from 1989.
Why do I hate every word in this?
posted by Young Kullervo at 5:55 PM on March 7, 2019 [14 favorites]
posted by Young Kullervo at 5:55 PM on March 7, 2019 [14 favorites]
R. Crumb: Still the perfect definition of "problematic".
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:57 PM on March 7, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:57 PM on March 7, 2019 [9 favorites]
Yeah, too little, too late
But props for not being completely shitty about women anymore...?
posted by Windopaene at 6:00 PM on March 7, 2019 [2 favorites]
But props for not being completely shitty about women anymore...?
posted by Windopaene at 6:00 PM on March 7, 2019 [2 favorites]
I mean thanks for making it extra extra clear that you really aren’t capable of seeing women as autonomous beings. Like if you don’t want to fuck them what’s the point in drawing them?
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 6:20 PM on March 7, 2019 [61 favorites]
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 6:20 PM on March 7, 2019 [61 favorites]
"Problematic" is a mild word. This dude's just a misogynist.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 7:04 PM on March 7, 2019 [17 favorites]
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 7:04 PM on March 7, 2019 [17 favorites]
"...things changed when Crumb received criticism. 'I became more self-conscious and inhibited,' he said. 'Finally, it became nearly impossible to draw anything that might be offensive to someone out there, and that’s where I’m at today.'"
posted by PhineasGage at 7:13 PM on March 7, 2019
posted by PhineasGage at 7:13 PM on March 7, 2019
“I’m just a crazy artist. I can’t be held to account for what I draw,” he said.
Phew, that's handy!
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:17 PM on March 7, 2019 [29 favorites]
Phew, that's handy!
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:17 PM on March 7, 2019 [29 favorites]
"I'm just a crazy banker," said the banker. "I can't be held to account for people being kicked out of their homes because they can't afford their mortgage payments."
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:18 PM on March 7, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:18 PM on March 7, 2019 [3 favorites]
(I mean, that happened too, but still.)
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:18 PM on March 7, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:18 PM on March 7, 2019 [4 favorites]
So, so tempted to dive in and start arguing with everybody. Not doing it. If you can read the interview and come away with some of the conclusions I'm seeing here, we will just never agree on a goddamned thing.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 7:26 PM on March 7, 2019 [33 favorites]
posted by Ursula Hitler at 7:26 PM on March 7, 2019 [33 favorites]
"...things changed when Crumb received criticism. 'I became more self-conscious and inhibited,' he said.
So the lesson learned was "avoid criticism" rather than "work on improving my personal flaws"? Okay then.
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:27 PM on March 7, 2019 [5 favorites]
So the lesson learned was "avoid criticism" rather than "work on improving my personal flaws"? Okay then.
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:27 PM on March 7, 2019 [5 favorites]
> posted by porn in the woods
Eponysterical
posted by I-Write-Essays at 7:31 PM on March 7, 2019 [6 favorites]
Eponysterical
posted by I-Write-Essays at 7:31 PM on March 7, 2019 [6 favorites]
Yep… R. Crumb is a pretty shitty person. I don’t think he’d argue that. In fact he was pretty open in drawing out every deep dark fantasy he had. And that; for good or bad, made him an inspiration for a lot of artists of my generation.
In the 60’s when I grew up, regular cartoon fare was Mary Worth, Peanuts, Beetle Bailey etc etc etc. Underground comix came out when we were bombarded with the idea that the Leave it to Beaver lifestyle was the ideal and anything else was feared or scorned. No gays, no people of color, anything that deviated from that was laughed at (ex. Maynerd Krebs the lazy beatnik).
When Zap Comix came out, we were shown a different view than the mainstream. Artists like Crumb peeled back the veneer of normalcy and for kids like me who didn’t feel as if I fit in… it was liberating. Here was a guy who drew a sort of perverted Disney comic. For a long time, I wanted to draw like him and I idolized him. As I got older, I realized what a shitty person he could be.
There were other underground artists who were far worse in my opinion. I won’t name them because they don’t need the advertising but they were every bit as violent, misogynistic and racist. A lot of this was a reaction against the mainstream but I’m sure it was also a way to vent their inner demons.
Crumb is a jerk and he draws himself that way. Some of it that I look at now… I think is more than “problematic”; it’s downright mean and ugly. He doesn’t sugarcoat his imperfections. But there are also works of his that are amazing (his illustrated Book of Genesis for example) that still redeem him a bit for me.
I don’t think folks are wrong to to get angry reading this article. But I also think his art; in some small way, maybe broke boundaries that led to more diverse voices in our culture. And he is still a shitty person.
posted by jabo at 7:38 PM on March 7, 2019 [59 favorites]
In the 60’s when I grew up, regular cartoon fare was Mary Worth, Peanuts, Beetle Bailey etc etc etc. Underground comix came out when we were bombarded with the idea that the Leave it to Beaver lifestyle was the ideal and anything else was feared or scorned. No gays, no people of color, anything that deviated from that was laughed at (ex. Maynerd Krebs the lazy beatnik).
When Zap Comix came out, we were shown a different view than the mainstream. Artists like Crumb peeled back the veneer of normalcy and for kids like me who didn’t feel as if I fit in… it was liberating. Here was a guy who drew a sort of perverted Disney comic. For a long time, I wanted to draw like him and I idolized him. As I got older, I realized what a shitty person he could be.
There were other underground artists who were far worse in my opinion. I won’t name them because they don’t need the advertising but they were every bit as violent, misogynistic and racist. A lot of this was a reaction against the mainstream but I’m sure it was also a way to vent their inner demons.
Crumb is a jerk and he draws himself that way. Some of it that I look at now… I think is more than “problematic”; it’s downright mean and ugly. He doesn’t sugarcoat his imperfections. But there are also works of his that are amazing (his illustrated Book of Genesis for example) that still redeem him a bit for me.
I don’t think folks are wrong to to get angry reading this article. But I also think his art; in some small way, maybe broke boundaries that led to more diverse voices in our culture. And he is still a shitty person.
posted by jabo at 7:38 PM on March 7, 2019 [59 favorites]
My father caught me reading Crumb at The Blue Front, Ann Arbor, 1978.
"Where's that Faygo HUH!, Here, (hands me a Playboy) YAH, you know not to even pick it up, let alone read in this store and not this...you...no Vogel's or bookshop."
So I wind up at Maynard Battery receiving instruction on sharping lawn mower blades.
I think dad had a run-in with him in the 60's.
posted by clavdivs at 8:00 PM on March 7, 2019 [9 favorites]
"Where's that Faygo HUH!, Here, (hands me a Playboy) YAH, you know not to even pick it up, let alone read in this store and not this...you...no Vogel's or bookshop."
So I wind up at Maynard Battery receiving instruction on sharping lawn mower blades.
I think dad had a run-in with him in the 60's.
posted by clavdivs at 8:00 PM on March 7, 2019 [9 favorites]
There's worst things to do than to draw out your personal deviance, then later reflect: "That was all fucked up".
“Fortunately for me, I found a way to express this inner turbulence in my comics, otherwise I might’ve ended up in jail or in a mental institution. No exaggeration. I’m better now. I worked it all out somehow. Success and the love of real women helped me a lot. Aline really saved my dismal ass.”
(Aline being his wife of 41 years)
posted by alex_skazat at 8:05 PM on March 7, 2019 [21 favorites]
“Fortunately for me, I found a way to express this inner turbulence in my comics, otherwise I might’ve ended up in jail or in a mental institution. No exaggeration. I’m better now. I worked it all out somehow. Success and the love of real women helped me a lot. Aline really saved my dismal ass.”
(Aline being his wife of 41 years)
posted by alex_skazat at 8:05 PM on March 7, 2019 [21 favorites]
When Zap Comix came out, we were shown a different view than the mainstream. Artists like Crumb peeled back the veneer of normalcy and for kids like me who didn’t feel as if I fit in… it was liberating. Here was a guy who drew a sort of perverted Disney comic. For a long time, I wanted to draw like him and I idolized him. As I got older, I realized what a shitty person he could be.
The only Crumb works I own are American Splendor, so maybe my sample set is skewed, but I don't see him as problematic. Shitty? Yes. Avowedly, un-concealedly shitty. But I don't see that as problematic. The cartoons I have don't glorify him in any way. Nobody looking at his work comes away from it wanting to be Robert Crumb to character. Crumb the artist? yes. Who wouldn't love to have his talent for wielding a pen? But Crumb the man? Nobody wants to be him. What's more, the cartoons give no indication that he is entitled to so much as a second glance from his Amazon Woman. I have an American Splendor book with the cover featuring him gawking at her and her thinking to herself "in your dreams, creep."
Compare to the entire medium of computer games. Playing them can condition you to think that in a properly functioning world, every obstacle you meet should yield to you before your next bathroom brake. Even if you never played games with female trope NPCs, you might develop a sense of entitlement that can be, well, problematic in the real world. Can't really say the same about Crumb.
Still, there are lots of things Crumb can draw. If he turns his attention to other things, nothing of value will be lost. There are enough renditions of the Amazon Woman out there.
posted by ocschwar at 8:13 PM on March 7, 2019 [13 favorites]
When Zap Comix came out, we were shown a different view than the mainstream
I agree but at least ZAP had 'adults only' on it, well, #7 did.
But if you mean like S. Clay Wilson, Spain Rodriguez...meh. even Robert Williams stuff can be visually amazing but erotic and cynical at best. Though ' Kustom 4' is just badass. Good excerpt from ' Zombie Mystery Paintings' by Williams were he writes: " I painted a naughty picture. aren't I smart".
posted by clavdivs at 8:16 PM on March 7, 2019
I agree but at least ZAP had 'adults only' on it, well, #7 did.
But if you mean like S. Clay Wilson, Spain Rodriguez...meh. even Robert Williams stuff can be visually amazing but erotic and cynical at best. Though ' Kustom 4' is just badass. Good excerpt from ' Zombie Mystery Paintings' by Williams were he writes: " I painted a naughty picture. aren't I smart".
posted by clavdivs at 8:16 PM on March 7, 2019
I've been reading R. Crumb comics almost as long as I've been reading comics on a regular basis; a friend in high school lent me some of Crumb's undergrounds from the sixties, which showed me that the medium could be used for subjects and styles outside of the Big Two's Comics Code Authority-approved superheroics. I understand the principle behind someone using their art to purge their id; on the other hand, good lord could he be creepy about it. (One thing from the documentary Crumb that sticks with me is when an ex-girlfriend is saying some pretty critical things about him, and of all the reactions he could have, he just starts pawing at her. I mean, who does that? But then you get to meet the rest of his family and R. seems like the normal one of the bunch. In conclusion, R. Crumb is a land of contrasts.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:32 PM on March 7, 2019 [15 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:32 PM on March 7, 2019 [15 favorites]
For the record I read the interview before it was posted here. Long ago I tried to push away the shittyness I felt because not liking Crumb meant I was uptight/uncool. It’s not just the misogynistic stuff, it’s the racist stuff too. Glad to no longer be young and wading through the swamp of that cultural bs. He’s not the first dude to pull the oh poor creepy misunderstood me or the a woman saved me thing so I am admittedly a bit immune. Good lord the misogynoir of Angelfood McSpade alone that is ok because satire?
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 9:47 PM on March 7, 2019 [19 favorites]
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 9:47 PM on March 7, 2019 [19 favorites]
“I only feel ‘misunderstood’ when people react to my work as if I were advocating the things I drew; the crazy, violent sex images, the racist images,”
“I drew from life, from photos and from my imagination,” said Crumb. “I also used them as diaries, filling many pages just with text; long rambling self-reflections.
“When I was young, I had a lot of anger towards women, as well as towards men and toward human society in general,” he says. “I vented my feelings in my artwork, in my comics.
I... I'm not sure how he can go "I feel misunderstood because people took what I was drawing seriously", but also say in various ways "Oh boy did I hate women (and various races), and I loved drawing from life and using drawing to tell my story".
Like, maybe I'm just one of those soft-hearted millenials who can't possibly know what it was like to have these deep dark socially-acceptable hatreds back in those days. But it sounds like his issue wasn't that he was misunderstood, it's that he was understood all too well because he put himself out there like that; and now he's unhappy that he's facing not-even-consequences but *mild, inconsequential criticism*.
This seems like the exact same sort of "redemption tour" pattern as Louis CK or Aziz Ansari; except at least to his credit Crumb waited more than a year or so before springing out there and expecting the Woody Allen treatment.
posted by CrystalDave at 10:10 PM on March 7, 2019 [17 favorites]
“I drew from life, from photos and from my imagination,” said Crumb. “I also used them as diaries, filling many pages just with text; long rambling self-reflections.
“When I was young, I had a lot of anger towards women, as well as towards men and toward human society in general,” he says. “I vented my feelings in my artwork, in my comics.
I... I'm not sure how he can go "I feel misunderstood because people took what I was drawing seriously", but also say in various ways "Oh boy did I hate women (and various races), and I loved drawing from life and using drawing to tell my story".
Like, maybe I'm just one of those soft-hearted millenials who can't possibly know what it was like to have these deep dark socially-acceptable hatreds back in those days. But it sounds like his issue wasn't that he was misunderstood, it's that he was understood all too well because he put himself out there like that; and now he's unhappy that he's facing not-even-consequences but *mild, inconsequential criticism*.
This seems like the exact same sort of "redemption tour" pattern as Louis CK or Aziz Ansari; except at least to his credit Crumb waited more than a year or so before springing out there and expecting the Woody Allen treatment.
posted by CrystalDave at 10:10 PM on March 7, 2019 [17 favorites]
The documentary Crumb is fantastic. R. Crumb is probably the most mentally stable and least talented of the Crumb boys.
Not sure what that says but I felt it needed saying.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 10:17 PM on March 7, 2019 [17 favorites]
Not sure what that says but I felt it needed saying.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 10:17 PM on March 7, 2019 [17 favorites]
“I only feel ‘misunderstood’ when people react to my work as if I were advocating the things I drew; the crazy, violent sex images, the racist images,” he said.
Walking that line is tough. There are artists who totally fail to take into account the messages their work might be sending, and then there are people who are unable to accept that art can exist which isn't trying to send a good message, or is taking on a persona that is different from who the artist wants to be, or who he thinks you should be.
“Finally, it became nearly impossible to draw anything that might be offensive to someone out there, and that’s where I’m at today.” [...] “So yeah, I don’t draw much any more.”
That's probably true, but... doesn't seem like that big of a deal? No one is going to take his comic artist's license away. Oh well, maybe he's just old and tired of drawing.
posted by mammal at 10:30 PM on March 7, 2019 [1 favorite]
Walking that line is tough. There are artists who totally fail to take into account the messages their work might be sending, and then there are people who are unable to accept that art can exist which isn't trying to send a good message, or is taking on a persona that is different from who the artist wants to be, or who he thinks you should be.
“Finally, it became nearly impossible to draw anything that might be offensive to someone out there, and that’s where I’m at today.” [...] “So yeah, I don’t draw much any more.”
That's probably true, but... doesn't seem like that big of a deal? No one is going to take his comic artist's license away. Oh well, maybe he's just old and tired of drawing.
posted by mammal at 10:30 PM on March 7, 2019 [1 favorite]
Just picked up a signed copy of My Troubles With Crumb, which lays it out pretty well.
posted by klangklangston at 12:16 AM on March 8, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by klangklangston at 12:16 AM on March 8, 2019 [4 favorites]
Why do I hate every word in this?
I do too. I was a baby in the 70s but have always been interested in that counterculture. It's still difficult for me to see what people really want to defend about Crumb. My dad lent a compendium of his work to me and seeing that was a transformative feminist experience. I'm not going to recount the ones that I can remember which were indelibly upsetting--a lot of his stuff is online and easily seen. At the time I was exposed to Crumb, I only knew that men behaved in a covetous and hateful way towards me sometimes and I didn't understand. Reading his comics were like burying my face in a heap of that poison and inhaling. So much pathetic self-hatred and objectification at once. No love. No dignity. Just the saddest, ugliest mind-trash.
His career annoys me because as a woman who is a nice person, I am apparently incapable of doing what he did, even for free. If I drew my darkest thoughts about men sexually... it would be like some shit that was in 90s erotic thriller films probably. It would certainly not be anything dehumanizing. The fact that a man could create the kind of stuff he created and make a living from it is depressing. Testing the limits at the expense of women and minorities. It's the same old song.
posted by heatvision at 4:38 AM on March 8, 2019 [38 favorites]
I do too. I was a baby in the 70s but have always been interested in that counterculture. It's still difficult for me to see what people really want to defend about Crumb. My dad lent a compendium of his work to me and seeing that was a transformative feminist experience. I'm not going to recount the ones that I can remember which were indelibly upsetting--a lot of his stuff is online and easily seen. At the time I was exposed to Crumb, I only knew that men behaved in a covetous and hateful way towards me sometimes and I didn't understand. Reading his comics were like burying my face in a heap of that poison and inhaling. So much pathetic self-hatred and objectification at once. No love. No dignity. Just the saddest, ugliest mind-trash.
His career annoys me because as a woman who is a nice person, I am apparently incapable of doing what he did, even for free. If I drew my darkest thoughts about men sexually... it would be like some shit that was in 90s erotic thriller films probably. It would certainly not be anything dehumanizing. The fact that a man could create the kind of stuff he created and make a living from it is depressing. Testing the limits at the expense of women and minorities. It's the same old song.
posted by heatvision at 4:38 AM on March 8, 2019 [38 favorites]
It just seems like a lot of words for “please don’t cancel R. Crumb.
Signed me, the bohemian R. Crumb.”
posted by Young Kullervo at 4:52 AM on March 8, 2019 [4 favorites]
Signed me, the bohemian R. Crumb.”
posted by Young Kullervo at 4:52 AM on March 8, 2019 [4 favorites]
I don’t begrudge people's visceral reactions to the guy or his work but I've been a fan my whole life. The drawing is wonderfully innovative and the stories are amazingly well structured. Yes, he's ugly, compulsive, and self indulgent - I can see that as a white guy, I never had to feel targeted or challenged by this but I always seen it through a filter of implied self-critique. It's easy to defend it as just satire but it steps into dark territory while doing that, so yeah, a complicated guy.
posted by bonobothegreat at 5:39 AM on March 8, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by bonobothegreat at 5:39 AM on March 8, 2019 [4 favorites]
I like R. Crumb! He doesn't have any responsibility to anybody else to draw women or anything at all -- he's an artist making his art. I think it's great that he's able to reflect and communicate what happens as men age: testosterone levels drop, and sexual impulses stop becoming such a major fixation. My understanding is that it makes more time for other, perhaps more meaningful pursuits.
If you want more smutty drawings of women, draw some! If you want them to be particularly sexualized, start taking testosterone.
posted by phenylphenol at 5:41 AM on March 8, 2019 [2 favorites]
If you want more smutty drawings of women, draw some! If you want them to be particularly sexualized, start taking testosterone.
posted by phenylphenol at 5:41 AM on March 8, 2019 [2 favorites]
The problem I have with this sort of mentality is that yeah, someone can totally be a misogynist, racist, deplorable scum bag of a person and if they somehow made money off of it ok. But they can't cling to "it was a different time, don't hate me" when society evolves and begins to criticize them. They need to fade out and let the world grow if they're not willing to grow themselves because they are stuck in the box of whatever counter-culture, iconoclast, hateful shell built their notoriety.
So I really have no idea what this interview was hoping to achieve. His fanbase will still love him, younger people who don't know him probably won't bother trying when they read this (or sympathize?), people who hate him will continue to do so.
posted by Young Kullervo at 6:03 AM on March 8, 2019 [2 favorites]
So I really have no idea what this interview was hoping to achieve. His fanbase will still love him, younger people who don't know him probably won't bother trying when they read this (or sympathize?), people who hate him will continue to do so.
posted by Young Kullervo at 6:03 AM on March 8, 2019 [2 favorites]
I think the interview is aiming Ng to achieve much of anything - probably just obligatory promotion for the exhibition in NYC (which I'm seeing this afternoon). There's not much in the interview he hasn't said before.
posted by bonobothegreat at 6:47 AM on March 8, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by bonobothegreat at 6:47 AM on March 8, 2019 [1 favorite]
His fanbase will still love him, younger people who don't know him probably won't bother trying when they read this (or sympathize?), people who hate him will continue to do so.
I don’t know. I think he’s a guy with a body of work that some young people will want to explore. For all his demons, for Crumb’s either lack of self awareness or willingness to be brutally honest about some rather common neuroses and anxieties among white men of his generation.
As for the rest of us, non young people who grew up with this man in our pop culture background, I think the vast majority are neither big fans or haters — he’s just too complicated. There’s something compelling about him for sure, but I fall on the side of “not a fan” because the ugliness is so hard to enjoy. Not because I want to pretend the ugliness isn’t there, or can/should be exterminated, it’s that it’s too real, too close to the reality of what the generation of men before me tried to teach me what it is to be a man (and of course what a lot of men believe today). He’s a cartographer of the White American male psyche but I think he’s also clearly not neurotypical because if you’re paying attention to the moral and social cues around you, you can’t just put that stuff out there without also dealing with the implications and consequences it. Maybe he’s just immature. But he does draw me towards engaging with where all this shit comes from, even if I don’t want to.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 8:22 AM on March 8, 2019 [4 favorites]
I don’t know. I think he’s a guy with a body of work that some young people will want to explore. For all his demons, for Crumb’s either lack of self awareness or willingness to be brutally honest about some rather common neuroses and anxieties among white men of his generation.
As for the rest of us, non young people who grew up with this man in our pop culture background, I think the vast majority are neither big fans or haters — he’s just too complicated. There’s something compelling about him for sure, but I fall on the side of “not a fan” because the ugliness is so hard to enjoy. Not because I want to pretend the ugliness isn’t there, or can/should be exterminated, it’s that it’s too real, too close to the reality of what the generation of men before me tried to teach me what it is to be a man (and of course what a lot of men believe today). He’s a cartographer of the White American male psyche but I think he’s also clearly not neurotypical because if you’re paying attention to the moral and social cues around you, you can’t just put that stuff out there without also dealing with the implications and consequences it. Maybe he’s just immature. But he does draw me towards engaging with where all this shit comes from, even if I don’t want to.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 8:22 AM on March 8, 2019 [4 favorites]
Reading Crum's comix I realized that I had been among the many who'd never noticed all the power lines and telephone poles which made garbage out of what otherwise was a beautiful San Francisco skyline. The eye garbages always were there, I just had learned to not see them. Dominos fell, and I landed on Vonnegut.
"isms"' are the new telephone poles and power lines, I guess. Once you start seeing them they fuck up the view. Age visits lessons on geezers, they are manifold and somewhat uncomfortable, but I would not like to be transported back into a world of naivete, where right and wrong live in polemic vacuums. I mean, Jeezus Harold Christ on a fucking bicycle, the revolution was supposed to cure us of all those evils, like, you know, chauvinism, mindless capitalism, associated evils related to racism, and the suppression of women. Free the laborer, pass out equitability like luudes and make love, not war. Don't Bogart the joint, and leave a roach for someone to find, for it will brighten their day.
So now we get the new normal where we bite off our toes because we don't like the way the shoes fit. I don't know. Invisible power lines didn't suit me then, but I can't find too much comfort in relying on isms to inform me of the true character of my otherwise sweet brothers and sisters in confusion.
Go RC, find you ultimate comfort. You have served your sentence. Thanks for showing me what made Fat Freddy so smart.
Peace.
posted by mule98J at 8:42 AM on March 8, 2019 [6 favorites]
"isms"' are the new telephone poles and power lines, I guess. Once you start seeing them they fuck up the view. Age visits lessons on geezers, they are manifold and somewhat uncomfortable, but I would not like to be transported back into a world of naivete, where right and wrong live in polemic vacuums. I mean, Jeezus Harold Christ on a fucking bicycle, the revolution was supposed to cure us of all those evils, like, you know, chauvinism, mindless capitalism, associated evils related to racism, and the suppression of women. Free the laborer, pass out equitability like luudes and make love, not war. Don't Bogart the joint, and leave a roach for someone to find, for it will brighten their day.
So now we get the new normal where we bite off our toes because we don't like the way the shoes fit. I don't know. Invisible power lines didn't suit me then, but I can't find too much comfort in relying on isms to inform me of the true character of my otherwise sweet brothers and sisters in confusion.
Go RC, find you ultimate comfort. You have served your sentence. Thanks for showing me what made Fat Freddy so smart.
Peace.
posted by mule98J at 8:42 AM on March 8, 2019 [6 favorites]
I can see that as a white guy, I never had to feel targeted or challenged by this.
And there you have it.
posted by emjaybee at 9:20 AM on March 8, 2019 [5 favorites]
And there you have it.
posted by emjaybee at 9:20 AM on March 8, 2019 [5 favorites]
I can see that as a white guy, I never had to feel targeted or challenged by this.
And there you have it.
There's no period there at the end of what you quoted, instead it continues: but I always seen it through a filter of implied self-critique.
Personally, I don't think the self-critique is merely "implied"; I think Crumb's art has always been very clear in its critique of R. Crumb and anybody like him. He's never shied away from portraying any ugliness he perceived and there's very few people (see: Trump, Donald) who he perceives as being uglier than he is. He paints a pretty clear picture of how self-loathing is a core component of the most toxic kinds of misogyny.
Which puts him in a weird spot, re: this interview, because I got the distinct impression, reading it, that maybe after all these years he finally hates himself a little bit less. Right around the same time that a big chunk of the rest of the world is coming around to hating him more.
posted by mstokes650 at 9:50 AM on March 8, 2019 [8 favorites]
And there you have it.
There's no period there at the end of what you quoted, instead it continues: but I always seen it through a filter of implied self-critique.
Personally, I don't think the self-critique is merely "implied"; I think Crumb's art has always been very clear in its critique of R. Crumb and anybody like him. He's never shied away from portraying any ugliness he perceived and there's very few people (see: Trump, Donald) who he perceives as being uglier than he is. He paints a pretty clear picture of how self-loathing is a core component of the most toxic kinds of misogyny.
Which puts him in a weird spot, re: this interview, because I got the distinct impression, reading it, that maybe after all these years he finally hates himself a little bit less. Right around the same time that a big chunk of the rest of the world is coming around to hating him more.
posted by mstokes650 at 9:50 AM on March 8, 2019 [8 favorites]
I can't find too much comfort in relying on isms to inform me of the true character of my otherwise sweet brothers and sisters in confusion.
Then maybe spend less time using the "isms" as a way of judging the hearts of your sweet brothers and sisters, and more time using them to help you notice the actual harms done to women and people of color and to find ways of rectifying them.
The harm done by R. Crumb's drawings is completely orthogonal to whether his heart was in the right place; whether his intention was to demean women or to lay bare and critique the ugliness of his own heart, the drawings are still demeaning.
posted by straight at 11:20 AM on March 8, 2019 [14 favorites]
Then maybe spend less time using the "isms" as a way of judging the hearts of your sweet brothers and sisters, and more time using them to help you notice the actual harms done to women and people of color and to find ways of rectifying them.
The harm done by R. Crumb's drawings is completely orthogonal to whether his heart was in the right place; whether his intention was to demean women or to lay bare and critique the ugliness of his own heart, the drawings are still demeaning.
posted by straight at 11:20 AM on March 8, 2019 [14 favorites]
I see nothing in this article that says, "Hey it must suck to be a woman and see pictures like these all the time" and a whole lot of "Hey it sucks when I honestly tell people how much I see women as exciting body parts, how hard it is for me to see them as people, and they judge me for it."
posted by straight at 11:35 AM on March 8, 2019 [18 favorites]
posted by straight at 11:35 AM on March 8, 2019 [18 favorites]
I worked at a comic shop for a few years starting late in high school and have been a big comics reader since about age 14. I've spent a lot of that time hearing about how great Crumb was, how innovative, what a great artist. And then I read some of his stuff when I was getting into contemporaneous comics by women and queer people (Wimmin's Comix, Gay Comix, Phoebe Gloeckner…). I like the approach of being brutally honest in comics and artwork in theory and I think Crumb inspired a lot of people whose work I really love, and there's no question that he could draw. At the same time, I find Crumb's work unreadably upsetting because of the misogyny and racism, because he always punches down. Even in the linked comic above, he goes from his fantasy about putting Trump's head in a toilet, which I am totally into, to being really gross toward women. He could have ended that with a hundred different slams on Trump, but no - what matters to him at the end is how much he likes drawing himself demeaning women, and how much his work normalizes that.
At least looking at it makes clear how much the whole era of underground comics was so hostile to everyone besides white straight cis men.
posted by bile and syntax at 11:49 AM on March 8, 2019 [10 favorites]
At least looking at it makes clear how much the whole era of underground comics was so hostile to everyone besides white straight cis men.
posted by bile and syntax at 11:49 AM on March 8, 2019 [10 favorites]
Then maybe spend less time using the "isms" as a way of judging the hearts of your sweet brothers and sisters, and more time using them to help you notice the actual harms done to women and people of color and to find ways of rectifying them.
Yeah, that's sort of how it happened to me in the late 70's, after a few political science courses, which I took to supplement gaps in my major. I stayed more or less enthralled by the way we didn't seem to be making any headway against the Red Tide. Then the wall fell, the Soviet Union dissolved, and the Red Tide disappeared. Um, but nothing really changed, except we stopped pretending (by we, I mean Them, the other Americans who moved and shook everything) that we would ever not be sending our troops to kill somebody for bullshit notions. The "isms" stopped working for me, except in thought problems. Now I get extremists to deal with, and we end up in sincere arguments about whether the fucking cat is dead or alive. Our points sail past each other like bullets.
The geezer part of me realizes the isms are always inadequate when applied to most people; as you seem to imply, it's okay to listen to what our sweet brothers and sisters are saying, but it's also good to notice which way their feet are pointing. I can probably truthfully apply several of isms to various phases of my life, but my fervent hope is that The Cosmic Muffin won't judge me by the worst thing I have ever done. I subscribe to the theory that a person doesn't really see himself clearly except a) in hindsight, or b) in the eyes of a loved one. Getting old, and closer to the end of the journey, I guess I'll never get this last part right. What kind of credit do we get for trying?
So it goes, right?
posted by mule98J at 12:20 PM on March 8, 2019 [2 favorites]
Yeah, that's sort of how it happened to me in the late 70's, after a few political science courses, which I took to supplement gaps in my major. I stayed more or less enthralled by the way we didn't seem to be making any headway against the Red Tide. Then the wall fell, the Soviet Union dissolved, and the Red Tide disappeared. Um, but nothing really changed, except we stopped pretending (by we, I mean Them, the other Americans who moved and shook everything) that we would ever not be sending our troops to kill somebody for bullshit notions. The "isms" stopped working for me, except in thought problems. Now I get extremists to deal with, and we end up in sincere arguments about whether the fucking cat is dead or alive. Our points sail past each other like bullets.
The geezer part of me realizes the isms are always inadequate when applied to most people; as you seem to imply, it's okay to listen to what our sweet brothers and sisters are saying, but it's also good to notice which way their feet are pointing. I can probably truthfully apply several of isms to various phases of my life, but my fervent hope is that The Cosmic Muffin won't judge me by the worst thing I have ever done. I subscribe to the theory that a person doesn't really see himself clearly except a) in hindsight, or b) in the eyes of a loved one. Getting old, and closer to the end of the journey, I guess I'll never get this last part right. What kind of credit do we get for trying?
So it goes, right?
posted by mule98J at 12:20 PM on March 8, 2019 [2 favorites]
the whole era of underground comics was so hostile to everyone besides white straight cis men
Not true, at least for me. As a White guy, I always found Crumb's work to be a pointed, harsh, and true depiction of American society as I knew it. But, as Ursula Hitler said, YMMV and I ain't gonna argue with you.
posted by CCBC at 6:22 PM on March 8, 2019
Not true, at least for me. As a White guy, I always found Crumb's work to be a pointed, harsh, and true depiction of American society as I knew it. But, as Ursula Hitler said, YMMV and I ain't gonna argue with you.
posted by CCBC at 6:22 PM on March 8, 2019
I don’t know. I think he’s a guy with a body of work that some young people will want to explore.
Oh I'm sure right now there's Comicsgators breathlessly reading Crumb and going "This guy's the bomb! No fucking SJWs here! So much better than Gail Simone!"
And y'know, exhume Dave Sim and grab Frank Miller, and together with Crumb they could be a link between the baby boomer comic creators of the past, and modern culture warriors like Ethan Van Sciver and Mike S. Miller. They could do a Kickstarter together.
posted by happyroach at 8:15 PM on March 8, 2019 [4 favorites]
Oh I'm sure right now there's Comicsgators breathlessly reading Crumb and going "This guy's the bomb! No fucking SJWs here! So much better than Gail Simone!"
And y'know, exhume Dave Sim and grab Frank Miller, and together with Crumb they could be a link between the baby boomer comic creators of the past, and modern culture warriors like Ethan Van Sciver and Mike S. Miller. They could do a Kickstarter together.
posted by happyroach at 8:15 PM on March 8, 2019 [4 favorites]
Why are the artists of today behaving like their 2019 selves instead of instantly evolving into their 2069 selves?
posted by fairmettle at 5:15 AM on March 9, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by fairmettle at 5:15 AM on March 9, 2019 [2 favorites]
The man can draw like no one else and I feel his disappointment with the direction of the US (money is all that matters) after the supposedly enlightened psychedelic era, but when it comes to seeing his drawings of women my interest in it is the same as it is in a serial killer where its all based on bewilderment as to what can make a mind go there, engage the thought, and even like it.
posted by WeekendJen at 5:47 AM on March 9, 2019
posted by WeekendJen at 5:47 AM on March 9, 2019
Why are the artists of today behaving like their 2019 selves instead of instantly evolving into their 2069 selves?
2019 they are allowed to draw whatever they want and 2019 me is allowed to tell them I think they way they draw women is bad. And to tell their editors I'd like them to hire somebody else next time.
posted by straight at 6:48 AM on March 9, 2019 [9 favorites]
2019 they are allowed to draw whatever they want and 2019 me is allowed to tell them I think they way they draw women is bad. And to tell their editors I'd like them to hire somebody else next time.
posted by straight at 6:48 AM on March 9, 2019 [9 favorites]
I'm unsettled by his violent, early 70s imagery but his body of work is bigger than that. To group him in with Miller and call him a seminal right wing culture warrior seems willfully imperceptive. A piece like "When the Goddamned Jews Take Over America", if you actually read it, ends with a white Christian man choosing to obliterate the world. A huge portion of his comics poke hard at big finance, big agriculture, mindless consumerism and venal white men (80s era Donald Trump having his head stuffed into a toilet).
posted by bonobothegreat at 7:35 AM on March 9, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by bonobothegreat at 7:35 AM on March 9, 2019 [3 favorites]
bonobothegreat, that can be true at the same time as his horrific misogyny and racism.
I'm tired of being asked to overlook that kind of thing, like it's somehow separable.
posted by bile and syntax at 8:14 AM on March 9, 2019 [12 favorites]
I'm tired of being asked to overlook that kind of thing, like it's somehow separable.
posted by bile and syntax at 8:14 AM on March 9, 2019 [12 favorites]
I think people are missing the larger narrative that informs his drawings. Crumb hates women, because many prefer guys like Donald Trump over him for the same shallow reasons that he prefers certain women. He's a misogynist, but more than that, he's a misanthrope. He hates humanity, and the human he hates most is himself.
Crumb's Comics describe personal stories of an American strain of what he sees as a human condition: namely that for a lot of people all that glitters is gold, no matter what kind of trash that glitter covers. Crumb's having a discussion in a provocative way by shining a light on his own misogyny, but he is having a discussion. His work is misogynistic, but it's not advocating misogyny.
Is he an important artist whose work is relevant and worth thinking about? I mean... Trump is president, the biggest celebrities are the Kardashians, incels are a thing, and most mainstream porn peddles unthinkable violence against women. He's definitely an artist worth thinking about.
When I think about Crumb's work my mind goes to dark places. His work is some of the blackest criticism regarding humanity and American culture in particular I can think of, and he doesn't even exempt himself from that critique. The racist stuff too. That stuff's not racist in the way you think. That stuff is meant to be a mirror.
If Crumb drew humanity, he'd draw a self portrait and stamp the word hate right in the middle of it.
posted by xammerboy at 10:28 AM on March 9, 2019 [8 favorites]
Crumb's Comics describe personal stories of an American strain of what he sees as a human condition: namely that for a lot of people all that glitters is gold, no matter what kind of trash that glitter covers. Crumb's having a discussion in a provocative way by shining a light on his own misogyny, but he is having a discussion. His work is misogynistic, but it's not advocating misogyny.
Is he an important artist whose work is relevant and worth thinking about? I mean... Trump is president, the biggest celebrities are the Kardashians, incels are a thing, and most mainstream porn peddles unthinkable violence against women. He's definitely an artist worth thinking about.
When I think about Crumb's work my mind goes to dark places. His work is some of the blackest criticism regarding humanity and American culture in particular I can think of, and he doesn't even exempt himself from that critique. The racist stuff too. That stuff's not racist in the way you think. That stuff is meant to be a mirror.
If Crumb drew humanity, he'd draw a self portrait and stamp the word hate right in the middle of it.
posted by xammerboy at 10:28 AM on March 9, 2019 [8 favorites]
Bile and syntax - I'm not asking you to overlook anything (and Crumb has almost made a point of not defending himself) but I was responding to the commenter who lumped him in with Miller. It feels weird to be the person saying "it's just satire" and "it's free speech" but in Crumb's case, I think it's an organic, honest portrait of the destructive aims of Western society and his own warped impulses. I think that's defensible.
posted by bonobothegreat at 12:18 PM on March 9, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by bonobothegreat at 12:18 PM on March 9, 2019 [2 favorites]
Read a lot of Crumb's work in my youth, and no doubt there is some very disturbing madness in there.
But he does seem far harsher on himself than anybody else, and I am not sure we would be better off without his work.
A mixed bag indeed.
posted by Pouteria at 6:35 PM on March 9, 2019 [2 favorites]
But he does seem far harsher on himself than anybody else, and I am not sure we would be better off without his work.
A mixed bag indeed.
posted by Pouteria at 6:35 PM on March 9, 2019 [2 favorites]
R Crumb is making the argument that his work decontextualized. He's not advocating for any of the violence or misogyny or racism. It's "just art".
Meanwhile, here in this thread, are real, individual men telling real, individual women that they have a list of achievements or actions that men can accomplish in order to dehumanize, berate, or objectify women as much s they want and they'll be absolved of it.
posted by FirstMateKate at 10:02 AM on March 10, 2019 [7 favorites]
Meanwhile, here in this thread, are real, individual men telling real, individual women that they have a list of achievements or actions that men can accomplish in order to dehumanize, berate, or objectify women as much s they want and they'll be absolved of it.
posted by FirstMateKate at 10:02 AM on March 10, 2019 [7 favorites]
I hate how sexism and racism keep being framed as “real” and “honest” with the implication of “he’s brave for creating such a dark mirror for humanity” while sensitivity for others and a desire to see others as individuals capable of beauty and kindness is sidelined as some sort of insubstantial fantasy.
It makes it so easy for people to keep replicating the ugliness over and over again, hiding behind the shields of honesty and truth while actually ignoring reality.
posted by Deoridhe at 10:57 AM on March 10, 2019 [10 favorites]
It makes it so easy for people to keep replicating the ugliness over and over again, hiding behind the shields of honesty and truth while actually ignoring reality.
posted by Deoridhe at 10:57 AM on March 10, 2019 [10 favorites]
Meanwhile, here in this thread, are real, individual men telling real, individual women that they have a list of achievements or actions that men can accomplish in order to dehumanize, berate, or objectify women as much s they want and they'll be absolved of it.
See Hannah Gadsby and "good men drawing the line".
posted by vac2003 at 12:08 PM on March 10, 2019 [1 favorite]
See Hannah Gadsby and "good men drawing the line".
posted by vac2003 at 12:08 PM on March 10, 2019 [1 favorite]
I don't think Crumb is saying something along the lines of "Men are pigs. Deal with it." I think he's saying "Men are pigs. Here's a picture of that." There's a difference.
I can remember visiting a museum in high school that displayed old racist advertisements. I had read about racism, but seeing those images and knowing they were part of the every day lingua franca of American society not too long ago made my blood run cold.
How you respond to seeing something like that is going to differ from person to person. It made me feel physically ill and disturbed. I'm not sure it was entirely healthy for me to contemplate, but that's not always what art is about.
Anyway, what Crumb is saying is that he didn't expect or intend for people to walk away from his art and say "that stuff's cool. I want to start acting like that." Or think that's what he was suggesting.
posted by xammerboy at 9:12 PM on March 10, 2019 [1 favorite]
I can remember visiting a museum in high school that displayed old racist advertisements. I had read about racism, but seeing those images and knowing they were part of the every day lingua franca of American society not too long ago made my blood run cold.
How you respond to seeing something like that is going to differ from person to person. It made me feel physically ill and disturbed. I'm not sure it was entirely healthy for me to contemplate, but that's not always what art is about.
Anyway, what Crumb is saying is that he didn't expect or intend for people to walk away from his art and say "that stuff's cool. I want to start acting like that." Or think that's what he was suggesting.
posted by xammerboy at 9:12 PM on March 10, 2019 [1 favorite]
Oh, and my response to seeing those advertisements was to think a lot more about how hate could be such a piecemeal part of society that it was virtually invisible to its members, which in turn led to me looking at my present with fresh eyes. I didn't always like what I saw.
posted by xammerboy at 9:38 PM on March 10, 2019
posted by xammerboy at 9:38 PM on March 10, 2019
Ok. Yeah, hurtful depictions of women and minorities aren't cool. He shouldn't get so much credit for recognizing this and putting that art out anyway. I never really understood why this guy's content is so excused, even if he's a great artist.
posted by agregoli at 7:24 AM on March 11, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by agregoli at 7:24 AM on March 11, 2019 [1 favorite]
xammerboy's experience reminds me of Clowes' Ghost World, when a racist ad from the past is displayed. Displaying the ad is considered offensive, though the purpose of the display is to expose racism.
posted by CCBC at 3:53 PM on March 11, 2019
posted by CCBC at 3:53 PM on March 11, 2019
I don't think Crumb is saying something along the lines of "Men are pigs. Deal with it." I think he's saying "Men are pigs. Here's a picture of that." There's a difference.
I guess for me as a woman the thing is that "here's a picture of that" is at best redundant and at worst cruelly gratuitous.
The reality I live in is already grotesque and it's not like I ever don't see it, or have ever been unaware that I'm a target of it since I was a child. Finding it depicted grotesquely by someone who is explicitly not on the receiving end of the grotesqueness just isn't intellectually thrilling for me in the way that I guess it can be for anyone who is able to distance themselves enough from it. When I look at his art I can at least sometimes look through the perspective of the R. Crumb character and identify with what he's feeling. But what I can't do is not identify with the women he depicts, because I'm never allowed to forget that that is what I am to too many people, that that is how they see me and how they insist on seeing me.
I mean, can you see the issue here:
I can remember visiting a museum in high school that displayed old racist advertisements. I had read about racism, but seeing those images and knowing they were part of the every day lingua franca of American society not too long ago made my blood run cold.
I too find old depictions of racism, including the kind targeted at me, and sexism, intellectually interesting and valuable to see and study. But when you say "knowing they were part of the every day lingua franca of American society not too long ago" - the issue is that they still are, you know? It's an ongoing and exhausting horror story, not one that was neatly wrapped up a while ago. It is a very different feeling to see hateful sentiments reflected in a hundred-plus-year-old artifact where I can reflect on the contents with at least a little distance. But show me the exact same crap on reddit, or coming out of the dominant political parties of the countries I care deeply about, or celebrated in a New York gallery retrospective, and I just can't feel that distance. Or, in the latter case, the decent intentions that are supposed to underlie his work. I get that they come across to some readers. I, and apparently a lot of others, have just never been able to feel that his desire for self-criticism overweighed his pleasure in drawing out his fantasies, or that ultimately he felt and understood the cost of what he was depicting.
I'm all for criticism of our stupid society. I don't really feel that there's a lack of it, or that Crumb's disgust at, say, how people think all that glitters is gold is in any way unique to him or original to him. (I mean, it's one of the most constant refrains in the history of human complaint.) Is it expressed by him in a particularly powerful way? To some readers, apparently. But every time I read one of his works - like now, when I wanted to see what he had to say about Trump all those years ago - I think oh right, this isn't for me; and if I want to see myself depicted as an airhead, as easily turned on and lured away by rich/powerful men, as an object that in a better, more just world a poor shlub could dominate, and, more than anything, as an absolute prop used to tell yet another male character's story - if I want to see those things, I could read his comics, or so many other comics, or watch the majority of movies and TV shows, or read a random selection of books, or have a conversation with someone I think of as a friend, or listen to a random selection of hit songs, or eavesdrop on the guys sitting behind me on the bus, or pay attention to what some politicians are saying, or read op-eds in any major newspaper, or listen to the guys around me the day after some other famous man is accused of rape, or, you know, go online. On a slow day I can always disable adblocking.
I don't think the guy should be censored or anything. I just find adulation of his work really depressing, because for me it's all part and parcel of the same reality that I can't get a sense of distance from without totally isolating myself from the world.
posted by trig at 3:53 PM on March 11, 2019 [7 favorites]
I guess for me as a woman the thing is that "here's a picture of that" is at best redundant and at worst cruelly gratuitous.
The reality I live in is already grotesque and it's not like I ever don't see it, or have ever been unaware that I'm a target of it since I was a child. Finding it depicted grotesquely by someone who is explicitly not on the receiving end of the grotesqueness just isn't intellectually thrilling for me in the way that I guess it can be for anyone who is able to distance themselves enough from it. When I look at his art I can at least sometimes look through the perspective of the R. Crumb character and identify with what he's feeling. But what I can't do is not identify with the women he depicts, because I'm never allowed to forget that that is what I am to too many people, that that is how they see me and how they insist on seeing me.
I mean, can you see the issue here:
I can remember visiting a museum in high school that displayed old racist advertisements. I had read about racism, but seeing those images and knowing they were part of the every day lingua franca of American society not too long ago made my blood run cold.
I too find old depictions of racism, including the kind targeted at me, and sexism, intellectually interesting and valuable to see and study. But when you say "knowing they were part of the every day lingua franca of American society not too long ago" - the issue is that they still are, you know? It's an ongoing and exhausting horror story, not one that was neatly wrapped up a while ago. It is a very different feeling to see hateful sentiments reflected in a hundred-plus-year-old artifact where I can reflect on the contents with at least a little distance. But show me the exact same crap on reddit, or coming out of the dominant political parties of the countries I care deeply about, or celebrated in a New York gallery retrospective, and I just can't feel that distance. Or, in the latter case, the decent intentions that are supposed to underlie his work. I get that they come across to some readers. I, and apparently a lot of others, have just never been able to feel that his desire for self-criticism overweighed his pleasure in drawing out his fantasies, or that ultimately he felt and understood the cost of what he was depicting.
I'm all for criticism of our stupid society. I don't really feel that there's a lack of it, or that Crumb's disgust at, say, how people think all that glitters is gold is in any way unique to him or original to him. (I mean, it's one of the most constant refrains in the history of human complaint.) Is it expressed by him in a particularly powerful way? To some readers, apparently. But every time I read one of his works - like now, when I wanted to see what he had to say about Trump all those years ago - I think oh right, this isn't for me; and if I want to see myself depicted as an airhead, as easily turned on and lured away by rich/powerful men, as an object that in a better, more just world a poor shlub could dominate, and, more than anything, as an absolute prop used to tell yet another male character's story - if I want to see those things, I could read his comics, or so many other comics, or watch the majority of movies and TV shows, or read a random selection of books, or have a conversation with someone I think of as a friend, or listen to a random selection of hit songs, or eavesdrop on the guys sitting behind me on the bus, or pay attention to what some politicians are saying, or read op-eds in any major newspaper, or listen to the guys around me the day after some other famous man is accused of rape, or, you know, go online. On a slow day I can always disable adblocking.
I don't think the guy should be censored or anything. I just find adulation of his work really depressing, because for me it's all part and parcel of the same reality that I can't get a sense of distance from without totally isolating myself from the world.
posted by trig at 3:53 PM on March 11, 2019 [7 favorites]
I was responding to the commenter who lumped him in with Miller.
Well sure. There's plenty of room for artists on the Left and artists on the Right to hold hands and sing Kumbaya, when it comes to shared misogyny. They may despise each others' politics, but they can have a drink over hating women.
Also, as far as "It's only satire", well, isn't that the excuse Miller fans make? You can get away with a lot of you attach that label to your stuff.
posted by happyroach at 12:10 AM on March 12, 2019 [3 favorites]
Well sure. There's plenty of room for artists on the Left and artists on the Right to hold hands and sing Kumbaya, when it comes to shared misogyny. They may despise each others' politics, but they can have a drink over hating women.
Also, as far as "It's only satire", well, isn't that the excuse Miller fans make? You can get away with a lot of you attach that label to your stuff.
posted by happyroach at 12:10 AM on March 12, 2019 [3 favorites]
> Artists like Crumb peeled back the veneer of normalcy and for kids like me who didn’t feel as if I fit in… it was liberating.
I was interested in the '60s counterculture when I was in high school in the '80s, and I didn't find Crumb's comics liberating. Their popularity was alienating, a clear sign that I -- a young woman -- was seen as inferior by people whose art I enjoyed.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:50 PM on March 16, 2019 [5 favorites]
I was interested in the '60s counterculture when I was in high school in the '80s, and I didn't find Crumb's comics liberating. Their popularity was alienating, a clear sign that I -- a young woman -- was seen as inferior by people whose art I enjoyed.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:50 PM on March 16, 2019 [5 favorites]
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