She said she saw Gary’s spirit come to her
March 7, 2019 10:34 PM   Subscribe

Gary Gygax died on March 4, 2008. That's when things really started getting complicated.
posted by Chrysostom (51 comments total) 21 users marked this as a favorite
 
“Human beings had only created six types of tabletop games. Dice games, plot games, card games, board games, miniature games and pen and paper games like Hang Man.”

This term is new to me. "Plot games?"

Help?
posted by rokusan at 11:15 PM on March 7, 2019 [1 favorite]


Erik Tenkar has posted about this article on his blog.
posted by Harald74 at 12:15 AM on March 8, 2019 [1 favorite]


I've got to say, despite the tone of the piece, Gail doesn't come out looking good in this: It sounds like she really needs to get some help (dozens of calls to the police about things going missing from a safety deposit box?), and that it is clear that his notes aren't going to be published in her lifetime. I could care less about movies, or video games, but I'd really like to see those early notes compiled and published so they are preserved.
posted by Canageek at 1:02 AM on March 8, 2019 [1 favorite]


Gail doesn't come out looking good in this...

That's the impression I got, too, though I could not help but be reminded of umpteen other stories of friends and family who have gone through similar drama when a patriarch or matriarch passes and leaves any ambiguity at all about what should be done with their everything.

People. Get. Crazy.
posted by rokusan at 2:01 AM on March 8, 2019 [8 favorites]


Wow that Tenkar bloke seems like a real piece of trash.

Reading his posts about the emails, he's concerned about it being an SJW hitpiece and hagiography of Gail, and quite willing to be a dick about it.

Guess we're still living in 1312 for sure. He seems very reminiscent of a Gamergater.

I didn't think the article was that sympathetic, and that Gail came out seeming troubled (she's going to get someone hurt with all those police calls), but if Tenkar's typical of her critics, I'm a lot more inclined to trust her.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 3:22 AM on March 8, 2019 [27 favorites]


”odometers”
posted by pompomtom at 3:58 AM on March 8, 2019 [4 favorites]


Conan the Barbarian, a pulpy fantasy series seasoned with buxom damsels in distress and hardened warriors who would rescue them from peril.

Just in case, like, you weren't sure who Conan was.
posted by Literaryhero at 4:42 AM on March 8, 2019 [5 favorites]


I like Michael Jackson, a pop star who sang such songs as Thriller and Beat It.
posted by Literaryhero at 4:43 AM on March 8, 2019


This whole thing just seems like a sad mess all around.
posted by nubs at 5:17 AM on March 8, 2019 [4 favorites]


Why would you want the dead man's private notes? I mean, it seems like his family objects.

The market for pre-D&D ephemera is pretty nuts. A friend of mine wrote a D&D history book, but unlike a lot of the other histories out there, he eschewed interviews in favor on contemporary sources - zines, campaign notes, letters, etc - as memories tend to shift over time (especially if there's money and credit involved!) and in order to do that, he had to find the stuff first. That turned out to be a quest straight out of D&D - tracking down clues, passing Charisma checks to get access to a trunk of papers, and even laying down a gold pieces when needed. Thanks to the foundational nature of D&D in many tech millionaires' lives, there was always a lot of competition for this stuff.

In a world where a Black Lotus Magic the Gathering card just sold for $166,000, how much do you think the first letter written between Gygax and Arneson would sell for? What about Bigby's character sheet?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:35 AM on March 8, 2019 [21 favorites]


Ask 10 teenagers who Conan the Barbarian is. I think you’ll be surprised.

Yeah. Three of my family members are high-school librarians and they all insist that it is absurd and unreasonable to expect that they would know who Conan is. Which I only mentioned because I was shocked that they'd also never heard of Lovecraft or the Necronomicon.

I don't know what the zoomers are reading, if they are at all, but it isn't any of the foundational texts that shaped fantasy as we know it today.

I do cede that it's fair that Clark Ashton Smith is completely unknown, if a little personally disappointing.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 5:52 AM on March 8, 2019 [5 favorites]


A friend of mine wrote a D&D history book, but unlike a lot of the other histories out there, he eschewed interviews in favor on contemporary sources - zines, campaign notes, letters, etc - as memories tend to shift over time (especially if there's money and credit involved!) and in order to do that, he had to find the stuff first.

This has to be Jon Peterson's Playing At The World, which was fantastic.
posted by zamboni at 5:53 AM on March 8, 2019 [3 favorites]


Yeah, especially the illustrations. The guy who did those must be really cool and not some "sub-Far Side doodler" like one review that's haunted me for years said.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:56 AM on March 8, 2019 [34 favorites]


Like the Universe, a person changes as a function of your exposure to their history.

Regarding "Plot games": Werewolf (SL Wikipedia) party game might act as an example, though my own first time playing it did not occur at a tabletop.
posted by filtergik at 5:57 AM on March 8, 2019


...and they all insist that it is absurd and unreasonable to expect that they would know who Conan is.

My kids are pretty sure he's Conan the Librarian. So there's that.
posted by ptfe at 5:57 AM on March 8, 2019 [7 favorites]


From the article:
Mentzer is a controversial figure in Gygaxland, too; last month his Gary Con “guest of honor” status was removed by Luke Gygax, who said in a statement that Mentzer had a history of “harassing behavior” and “threatening communications.”
This makes it sound like the issue was bad blood with the Gygax family. Mentzer is a controversial figure for other reasons as well.
So, while we're talking about missing stairs in our professional communities, let's talk about Frank Mentzer.
posted by zamboni at 6:02 AM on March 8, 2019 [18 favorites]


That Tenkar fella is belligerent and obtuse. The comments on his blog piece are odious and gamer-gatey.

Gail Gygax is not coming across well, but more in a way that i am concerned for the toll on her mental health. Hyper vigilance takes an enormous toll on the psyche, and I hope she's got people she can relax around.
posted by trif at 6:10 AM on March 8, 2019 [15 favorites]


I didn't think the article was that sympathetic, and that Gail came out seeming troubled (she's going to get someone hurt with all those police calls), but if Tenkar's typical of her critics, I'm a lot more inclined to trust her.

Yeah, this was practically a hit piece on Gail, if you ask me.

At 2:30 p.m., Gail pours herself a glass of wine. [...]

“They stole his funeral book,” said Gail, not saying who “they” were. “Then it just kept going.” Gail said she has now been battling the ambiguous “they” for 11 years in an effort to protect Gary’s legacy from the people she believes are trying to steal it. [...]

One Saturday evening, Gail’s friend, a former Playboy bunny [...]

Gail started accompanying Gary on his biweekly trips to Los Angeles, splurging on lunch at the Beverly Hills Hotel, shopping on Rodeo Drive, zipping around in a blue Cadillac Seville convertible chauffeured by Gary’s bodyguard. [...]

In her mind, there are people waiting eagerly outside, plotting to capitalize on the physical archives of Gary Gygax’s legacy.

It sounds like this whole story is full of unpleasant, troubled, and difficult people (that Tenkar guy is a complete ass), but the author's opinion of Gail is pretty clear to me.
posted by Rock Steady at 6:13 AM on March 8, 2019 [10 favorites]


In a world where a Black Lotus Magic the Gathering card just sold for $166,000

Oh cripes. I had a Black Lotus; got it in my first ever deck of Magic cards. Sold it for $400 when I quit a year or so later; guess I should’ve kept my stuff instead.
posted by nubs at 6:16 AM on March 8, 2019 [1 favorite]


Ask 10 teenagers who Conan the Barbarian is. I think you’ll be surprised.
posted by thoroughburro at 5:00 AM on March 8 [6 favorites]


Then ask them if they like gladiator movies, and if they've ever been in a Turkish prison.
posted by Kibbutz at 6:29 AM on March 8, 2019 [19 favorites]


From Tenkar's blog: Of course, Our intrepid reporter doesn't no shit from fact-checking.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:32 AM on March 8, 2019 [7 favorites]


Tenkar's also been using his position as admin of the OSR MeWe group -- which is picking up a lot lately with the demise of Google+, which was a haven for old-school roleplaying developers -- to EXPRESS HIS OUTRAGE about this feud, and another that he decided to start with a commenter, up to twice a day. I ended up leaving the group yesterday out of disgust, despite being a developer who could use the networking myself.

No-one on either side of this is looking like a stable, rounded individual, IMO.
posted by Quindar Beep at 6:49 AM on March 8, 2019 [4 favorites]


The RPG community has had quite a few broken stairs come to light lately, but luckily it seems like the accusers are mostly taken seriously.
posted by Harald74 at 6:51 AM on March 8, 2019 [3 favorites]


Seconding that no one comes out looking good here.

I 100% agree that there are a ton of creeps involved. Gail almost certainly is being harassed, stalked, and gaslighted. But that's also made her hyper-defensive and she's choking out any good that can come out of Gary's remaining works and notes.
posted by explosion at 7:00 AM on March 8, 2019 [3 favorites]


Gail Gygax is not coming across well, but more in a way that i am concerned for the toll on her mental health. Hyper vigilance takes an enormous toll on the psyche, and I hope she's got people she can relax around.

In 1975, Gygax's partner in the founding of TSR, Don Kaye, died of a sudden heart attack at a young age. He did not leave any provisions about (the fledgling company) TSR in his will, and it might be fair to say that the mess around TSR's ownership and finances started after Kaye's death, when Gygax was unable to get the money to buy Kaye's shares from his widow (who really wanted nothing to do with Gygax or gaming). It was at this point that Brian Blume was able to step in and take majority control of the company, which eventually led to Gygax losing control of his own creation.

I offer this because - Gygax, from his own lived experience, should made much more specific provisions for all this material in his will. People are complex, and I'm sure he trusted Gail to do the right thing (particularly as she'd managed their finances for so many years), but his failure to make provisions for these materials (which, in my own personal opinion, should be formally held at a University somewhere as the Gygax Papers, not be shopped around and sold to collectors). I know there is a will (and apparently a disputed second will) but by the sounds of things it allows a lot of room for interpretation.

Whatever Gail's mental state (and I'm actually willing to cut her a great deal of slack here), he left her a mess, and frankly he left her in a situation where I'm sure she's besieged by people who want to make a buck off her, off Gary's memory, or the estate. I don't blame her for feeling besieged, or for not trusting people. Because pretty much any piece of paper that her husband touched, there is a market for. Not to mention the long-established misogyny endemic to the tabletop world.
posted by anastasiav at 7:04 AM on March 8, 2019 [23 favorites]


Sold it for $400 when I quit a year or so later; guess I should’ve kept my stuff instead.

On the other hand, collectible trading cards were the worst example of artificial scarcity in late-stage consumer capitalism before bitcoin came along, so maybe you got out just in time.
posted by aspersioncast at 7:20 AM on March 8, 2019 [3 favorites]


I didn't think the article was that sympathetic, and that Gail came out seeming troubled (she's going to get someone hurt with all those police calls), but if Tenkar's typical of her critics, I'm a lot more inclined to trust her.

Tenkar is a cranky old asshole on the OSR scene. To be honest, he's far from the worst, but he's a paranoid dude who has appointed himself the Kickstarter police for the role-playing community. I think he's actually an ex-cop.

Gail Gygax has long had a reputation as a vindictive and crazy person. Unfortunately, Tenkar being an asshole doesn't redeem Gail. I don't actually know much about her, so I'm just reporting her reputation; but the article doesn't do her any favors, and she was the primary interview subject.

The article is pretty damn even-handed and well-written.
posted by Edgewise at 7:46 AM on March 8, 2019 [3 favorites]


This was just really sad. I think it's possible to be difficult and paranoid and obsessive, and still be correct in that there are people trying to take advantage of you. I feel bad for Gail; I feel bad for the family, because apparently those relationships are never going to heal; but I blame Gary Gygax for not making provisions. He knew he was dying: this was not a surprise. Instead he left his wife to deal with all of it, and that's on him.
posted by suelac at 8:20 AM on March 8, 2019 [7 favorites]


Why would you want the dead man's private notes? I mean, it seems like his family objects.

D&D changed our culture - and impacted millions of lives. How is that different than getting notes/letters from any other famous/historical author?

Just because it is a "game", doesn't make it worthwhile from an archival and historic perspective?

However - personally - I don't think they should be in private collections and essentially inaccessible unless you have the $$$ - they should be in a library/archive or museum to allow for study and long-term archival.
posted by jkaczor at 8:48 AM on March 8, 2019 [3 favorites]


In her mind, there are people waiting eagerly outside, plotting to capitalize on the physical archives of Gary Gygax’s legacy.

Shit, I've seen the lengths people will go to acquire the objects or archives of people they consider important. I've watched people scream into phones at dealers and I've watched them scheme to separate collections from owners at the least cost to themselves. There is no doubt in my mind that there are more than a few wealthy old D&Ders who'd do nearly anything to buy a piece of their childhoods.

And I don't know anything about Gail Gygax, but having watched nerds rage and harass women over the most trivial shit for like the past five or six years she gets at least the benefit of the doubt.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:00 AM on March 8, 2019 [21 favorites]


I had big plans to get into 1st edition AD&D revival stuff a couple years ago, learned about the OSR community, and, yadda yadda yadda, I only play 5th Edition now.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:49 AM on March 8, 2019 [8 favorites]


It's unfortunate - I like a fair amount of the OSR stuff as product, but a lot of people associated with it are not great.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:59 AM on March 8, 2019 [3 favorites]


It's unfortunate - I like a fair amount of the OSR stuff as product, but a lot of people associated with it are not great.

It's true, but the only important people are the ones sitting around your table.
posted by Edgewise at 10:00 AM on March 8, 2019 [2 favorites]


round up people you already like and cajole them into playing D&D with you.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:29 AM on March 8, 2019 [10 favorites]


What's a good way to get into D&D without interacting with people who take it too seriously or are deplorable?

Local public libraries often have D&D clubs; usually you'll be able to find out a little more about them ahead of time than from a rando craigslist group.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:30 AM on March 8, 2019 [1 favorite]


But I've generally gone with PBO's model, because IME libraries don't let you drink and the groups trend toward the doctrinaire; I like my collaborative storytelling more on the "wing it" side than the "roll these three dice then consult a table then roll some more dice then dig through the rule book" side.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:33 AM on March 8, 2019 [1 favorite]


The options above are good. One of the players in my group, who wants more frequency of play than I can currently provide (once every two weeks is pretty much my limit as a DM of a homebrew campaign with a job and family) has been reporting some success with using Meetup to find some games and has been very surprised at how few assholes he has encountered so far.

Other options include checking out board game cafes; some of them may host D&D nights. Online options also exist - gamersplane.com is an example, and there are also groups that form that use products like Roll20.com or Fantasy Grounds, which don’t require you to be in the same room.
posted by nubs at 10:49 AM on March 8, 2019 [3 favorites]


(and yes, my campaign has a job and a family)
posted by nubs at 10:55 AM on March 8, 2019 [2 favorites]


Gail doesn't come out looking good in this ...

Having RTFA, my hot takes are two: 1) Gail Gygax is an old woman, in poor health, possibly with some degree of memory impairment, who devoted her marriage to taking care of her more famous and more beloved partner and now she'd like a little fucking deference, thank you very much. Maybe that makes her insufferable, but she wouldn't be the first literary widow to feel that way—Valerie Eliot, Sonia Orwell, Véra Nabokov, the list could go on.

2) Color me unsurprised that DeSanto's lawyer describes him as "clearly in the best position of anyone to develop and exploit the very rich library of material left behind by Gary Gygax" because "exploitation" is exactly what that deal sounds like.

Extra bonus hot take! Never seen a photo of the younger Gary Gygax before, but that guy beside the fireplace is kind of a dude.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:59 AM on March 8, 2019 [8 favorites]


Why would you want the dead man's private notes? I mean, it seems like his family objects.
posted by floam at 1:24 AM on March 8 [2 favorites +] [!]


This is a game that impacted MILLIONS of people. As someone with Aspergers it is one of the ways I learned social skills in a more structured environment. A lot of my best memories are playing roleplaying games. These are the notes that started it all. Not just the notes from his personal campaign, but the early drafts of the rules and so on. So little of this history is known, and mostly comes from decades old memories and interviews. The issue with this is that there are still arguments about if Gygax used MINIATURES when running the game, and in what years. That is a PRETTY basic bit of info, and effects how directly D&D evolved from a wargame, or was it more a theater of the mind thing that picked up wargame bits as it went? Gygax's notes should preserve that.

I really don't care who winds up with those notes. I think they should probably be in a museum, but I also bet Gail could get millions for it if she would sell. However, I think they should be copied into an academic book, the same way we collate the personal letters of famous authors and politicians.

Like how the letters of Cassiodorus are preserved, but for elfgames.
posted by Canageek at 11:13 AM on March 8, 2019 [6 favorites]


more than a few wealthy old D&Ders who'd do nearly anything to buy a piece of their childhoods
"... a man who got everything he wanted and then lost it. Maybe Ravenloft was something he couldn't get, or something he lost. Anyway, it wouldn't have explained anything... I don't think any word can explain a man's life. No, I guess Ravenloft is just a... piece in a jigsaw puzzle... a missing piece."
posted by roystgnr at 11:17 AM on March 8, 2019 [5 favorites]


a man who got everything he wanted and then lost it

Citizen Mordenkainen.
posted by zamboni at 11:35 AM on March 8, 2019 [18 favorites]


kaneclapping.gif
posted by octobersurprise at 11:37 AM on March 8, 2019


People reading an article about the wife of Gary Gygax surely know who Conan is.
posted by Brocktoon at 12:48 PM on March 8, 2019 [3 favorites]


Other options include checking out board game cafes; some of them may host D&D nights.

100% do this. I was at the edge of a mental something bad and then I found a laid back group at the cafe over the river. It has been so much fun to play my GOO Tomelock every other week and may have put off a mental breakdown to another day.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:02 PM on March 8, 2019


Ask 10 teenagers who Conan the Barbarian is. I think you’ll be surprised.

But ask them about Kronar and you'll find that one kid destined to be the King of MeFi!
posted by Ber at 5:23 AM on March 9, 2019 [2 favorites]


Ask 10 teenagers who Conan the Barbarian is. I think you’ll be surprised.

The need for reading "fantasy" fiction classics to be immersed in the background for enjoying RPG's is decreasing on a constant basis - there are an ever increasing number of TV & movie options. (Heh... and now I date myself - am old enough to have nearly forgotten the Conan movies from the 80's...)
posted by jkaczor at 6:51 AM on March 9, 2019 [1 favorite]


You mention Lord Dunsany to kids these days and all you get is a blank stare. WTF
posted by benzenedream at 10:34 AM on March 9, 2019 [4 favorites]


People reading an article about the wife of Gary Gygax surely know who Conan is.

Then the article surely also doesn't have to explain what TSR was either, right? I mean, nobody would read about Gail Gygax without that knowledge.

This is starting to come across as really weird gatekeeping to me; there is a whole new generation picking up D&D who have little to no clue about Gygax and the history of the game (my 20-year old niece is one of them - she doesn't care about all this, she's just having fun with her friends (and I am proud as fuck to be the uncle who gives her things like the Monster Manual for Christmas)), who might come to this article only because the headline mentions Dungeons & Dragons. There might even be people who read this article who don't even play (gasp!), much less know about a fictional hero who started in the pulp magazines of the 1930s and has a couple of 35+ year old movies and some short-lived TV series. But let's make sure our little world is inscrutable to them because having one awkward sentencing explaining a reference is too much for us to concede.
posted by nubs at 10:56 AM on March 9, 2019 [12 favorites]


From being a part of that scene, I will say I think Tenkar is a bit of a blue-lives-matter dick. I don't think his ragging on this widow for however many years is a good look.

Gail comes off looking like an old women in maybe not the best mental health. These sorts of articles often feel like they probably didn't need to be written. It's like weird voyeurism.
posted by chunking express at 6:50 PM on March 10, 2019 [2 favorites]


"Plot games?"

At a guess, something like Tales of the Arabian Nights or Legacy of Dragonholt, or the Werewolf game mentioned above, or something like Coup or whatever. Kind of choose-your-own-adventure RP-lite stuff, maybe? But they all tend to involve dice or boards or cards (except Dragonholt, which is actually pretty good considering).

That, or Google is reporting a kind of random range of educational games.
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:14 PM on March 13, 2019


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