The Political Implications of "No Bummers"
March 10, 2019 6:22 PM   Subscribe

The Politics of the McElroy Brothers is an in-depth analysis of The McElroys, by Sarah Zedig.

Sarah’s analysis focuses primarily on the “no bummers” rule on My Brother, My Brother and Me, Monster Factory, and The Balance Arc on The Adventure Zone. Warning: there are spoilers for The Balance Arc and Final Pam.
posted by meese (68 comments total) 15 users marked this as a favorite
 
This is a long time coming for the McElroys.

See also the half dozen or so videos about parasocial relationships on bread tube(leftie YouTube, that rarest of commodities) a few months ago.
posted by Yowser at 6:27 PM on March 10, 2019


*skims to the end* Although I uhh would have come to a seriously different, far more cynical conclusion. But if it’s your thing, well enjoy.
posted by Yowser at 6:35 PM on March 10, 2019


I am very interested to hear alternate takes, but only on one condition:

No Bummers.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 6:37 PM on March 10, 2019 [1 favorite]


Is there a summary for those who are curious but don't want to sit through a half-hour video or ever hear a McElroy voice again? I listen to a lot of podcasts and my God, they are inescapable.
posted by Flannery Culp at 6:40 PM on March 10, 2019 [17 favorites]


Don't really get much from the video's analysis of politics but it was at least a good TL;DR of The Adventure Zone's plot which was nice.
posted by Space Coyote at 6:56 PM on March 10, 2019


I am guessing that this isn't about these McElroy Bros. per se.
posted by not_on_display at 6:57 PM on March 10, 2019


I don't have time to watch the whole thing, but the last couple minutes sums it up:

"And that I think is what the politics of the McElroys really amount to. That we are only alive for a little while, and what time we have is too precious to give away to the kinds of people who want to use us for their own greedy ends. The only thing to do is to love each other and support each other - to listen when people say you hurt them, and tell others when they hurt you. To protect our friends from those who seek to exploit those very rights for their own gain. To combat alienation and the nightmare of unbounded capital enterprise, not with a new hierarchy that just moves the pieces around, but to overcome and replace it with something that is egalitarian, something that preserves our right, and our children's right, our community's right to freedom, to the fruits of our labor, to lead long and healthy and empowered lives where we can laugh and cry together, where we can love and rage together, where we can think and grow together. The McElroys don't refute the pain and hurt of life, they don't ignore the conflicts, they don't want to tell you what to do or how to live - They just want us to see that we're all a family... and that we are powerful because we've chosen each other, and that we should not be ashamed to be exactly who we are, because we aren't here to exploit each other. We're here to help each other and foster a world that tries to help everyone.

Baby that's communism! Woo, we did it! Communism fuck yeah, nailed it. Congratulations everybody, you're a communist now. You're welcome."

posted by beandip at 7:10 PM on March 10, 2019 [22 favorites]


I really like the McElroys, and I know it's trendy to hate them, but their really strict rules on never punching down and never being shitty really endears them to me.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 7:13 PM on March 10, 2019 [50 favorites]


I'm just weary of them from overexposure, but yeah, the excerpt beandip posted (thanks!) is a worldview I can get behind.
posted by Flannery Culp at 7:15 PM on March 10, 2019 [3 favorites]


One of the interesting things about MBMBaM in particular is that they sort of figured some of their shit out over the years in the process of doing this podcast stuff, and you can hear the progress listening to current episodes vs. the very first ones. I don't mean the technical or format stuff (though that too) but this sense of these guys making some progress from actually occasionally being a bit shitty or mocking right at the start to really trying hard not to do that not very far into the show's tenure. They weren't giant fuckers or anything but I remember getting excited about the show when it was new to me and dipping into the first few episodes and having a moment every once in a while of being like "...eesh, that's kind of a shitty dunk on random person you don't know" in a way that wasn't there at all around episode 150 or whatever.

I think they end up walking a thin line sometimes in trying to do comedy reacting to internet stuff, and though I haven't had a big wince lately while listening I think they're gonna continue to sort of go down a Shitty Comedy road now and then when they hit a blind spot and get caught up in the goof without thinking through whether the goof amounts to shitting on someone for being weird in a way they haven't encountered before. But I do appreciate that they seem to be pretty receptive to feedback about that when it happens, and willing to visibly, consciously change course on it.
posted by cortex at 7:26 PM on March 10, 2019 [23 favorites]


At the very least we know where they stand on dog suffrage.
posted by Hey Dean Yeager! at 7:30 PM on March 10, 2019


But I do appreciate that they seem to be pretty receptive to feedback about that when it happens, and willing to visibly, consciously change course on it. -cortex

Yes, and not only change course, but openly and frequently reference that they have changed course, saying, "Yeah, maybe don't listen to our early podcast episodes, we were stupid then" instead of just changing and never mentioning it again. That's key for me.

A side note to ask, is there a way to pipe a YouTube video's audio content into an .mp3 file or other audio file that I can listen to on my way to work? I want to consume this piece but 30-minute YouTube videos of one person talking are really hard for me to pay attention to.

Ok, going to go re-listen to MBMBAM Episode 400: The Escape to Margaritaville Red Carpet Extravaganza while washing dishes and chortling.
posted by rogerroger at 7:35 PM on March 10, 2019 [8 favorites]


I know it's trendy to hate them

It is? For any particular reason, or the usual "Oh, this thing is really popular and lots of people like it, so the way to be edgy is to very publically sneer at it."?

I mean, yeah, they're everywhere, but this is how all three brothers and their dad make their living now - by podcasting, touring, and writing books inspired by their podcasts. I can't blame them for pursuing opportunities as hard as possible, nor am I surprised that other podcasts want them to guest in hopes of gaining some exposure to McElfans.

Also, dammit, not that I'm not happy to read a McElroy post, but can someone please make the Critical Role Kickstarter post I haven't had time to write?
posted by booksherpa at 7:40 PM on March 10, 2019 [10 favorites]


Yeah, I also missed the "it's trendy to hate on the McElroys" message as well.
posted by snwod at 7:50 PM on March 10, 2019 [9 favorites]


I've actually found myself asking people lately, when they recommend media: Does this have a happy ending? Because if it doesn't, I'm probably not interested. Not until I'm sure that my own life *does* have one. When the media seemed to decide it was time for gritty realism, they never asked who needed the gritty realism. So they made these things that were grittily realistic.. by targeting the same people who the real world targets, the ones who had never been burdened by too many happy endings. And I'm done with it. I need the media that will help me to recharge enough to go out and tackle the real problems.

I only want to hear the bummers if my hearing the bummers is somehow helping. It's usually not.
posted by Sequence at 7:52 PM on March 10, 2019 [27 favorites]


Yeah, I also missed the "it's trendy to hate on the McElroys" message as well.

Y'all didn't hear? This guy said it last week.

On his podcast.
posted by jeremias at 8:11 PM on March 10, 2019 [7 favorites]


Re: Hating the McElroys

I've seen a few posts on Tumblr of people champing at the bit to get their hate on, literally "I can't wait until they screw up so I can dump on them." It's kind of Late Callout/Cancel Culture, where legitimate assholes are have been checked off the list, and now the sharks are circling for more, waiting to be the first to say, "Well I never liked them from the start."

It's kind of gross, honestly, to hope that people turn out to be monsters, but, you know, The Internet.
posted by gc at 8:17 PM on March 10, 2019 [17 favorites]


It's through ads on TAZ that I've found a couple of my favorite RPG play podcasts that aren't just straight dudes at a table. So if you're in the mood to listen to podcasts in the vein of The Adventure Zone, I'd suggest checking out Six Feats Under - they have a big Mouseguard campaign and a couple shorter ones and a tone of one shots in various fun systems - and also D20 Dames who are on their second season of a 5th edition campaign that's been entertaining and fun.
posted by Zalzidrax at 8:37 PM on March 10, 2019 [5 favorites]


I doubt Griffin would agree that he's a Communist. I'm pretty sure he self-identifies as a Germophobe.
posted by belarius at 8:44 PM on March 10, 2019 [3 favorites]


It's kind of gross, honestly, to hope that people turn out to be monsters, but, you know, The Internet.

One of my favourite bloggers has described anti-abortion evangelicals, I think quite perceptively, as LARPers. They've invented a monster in order to make themselves feel righteous without having to actually be righteous, or even particularly right.

I think it's probably the same thing here.
posted by Merus at 8:46 PM on March 10, 2019 [14 favorites]


I cannot explain my disdain for the McElroys, it was just always... there. From the first time I heard the first one of their voices I was filled with a need to move away from it. I am not joking, I don't have the answers but man, do I dislike them, and I like a LOT of people, I'm usually pretty easy.

The best I can come up with is that I can never like someone who likes themselves as much as the McElroys do and I could never be charmed by anyone who finds themselves as charming as they do. They are presenters by committee, the podcast equivalent to the tv shows you get when the content is dictated by the happy/sad dials the test audiences twist.
posted by Cosine at 9:02 PM on March 10, 2019 [9 favorites]


I cannot explain my disdain for the McElroys, it was just always... there.

certainly sounds like it's not actually based in anything concrete then?
posted by JimBennett at 9:05 PM on March 10, 2019 [24 favorites]


Yeah I've heard the occasional bit of "can't wait to find out that one of the McElroy brothers has Seedy Dealings that will prove their downfall," and I just find myself thinking: what is wrong with you, that your reaction to people enjoying people who openly make a point of trying to be decent in the entertainment media they produce is to hope and pray that they Milkshake Duck themselves?

Incidentally, I'm not used to "no bummers" being applied to anything other than live show questions, since originally that rule was instituted just to avoid casting a weird, uncomfortable energy over what was a fun time everyone had been enjoying.

Anyway I really like their stuff and it's cool to not enjoy it, but I just can't get behind the circling-sharks mindset as described above.
posted by DoctorFedora at 9:28 PM on March 10, 2019 [15 favorites]


Circling glass sharks?

This is my all-time favorite mbmbam bit.
posted by axiom at 9:30 PM on March 10, 2019 [7 favorites]


I'm pretty sure I agree with most of this. Despite not personally liking the vast majority of McElroy stuff (sawbones largely exempted), they seem like good people who spend their time making others happy. And a critical examination of their media is really interesting.

But, the amount of time required to get through this incredibly slow presentation makes me feel like I'm listening to a McElroy podcast. I'm clearly an old when it comes to media consumption, but I wish this essay were presented as an essay.

Personally, as a rabid radio fan, I'm mostly looking for all bummers as a theme. Podcasts that don't make me want to punch a wall or walk into the sea at least once per episode rarely convince me come back for more. The world is filled with media empires that thrive on happy endings. The opposite (when it's, true, anti-racist, feminist, and not cruel to real individuals) is rare and refreshing.
posted by eotvos at 9:53 PM on March 10, 2019 [3 favorites]


The best I can come up with is that I can never like someone who likes themselves as much as the McElroys do and I could never be charmed by anyone who finds themselves as charming as they do.

They're all pretty open about their various levels of social anxiety disorder. All the nervous giggling and laughter at their own jokes has always struck me more as a combination of genuine amusement at what they were reading or what another person was saying, or nervousness. Look who they do podcasts with - each other, their dad, and their wives. Even Travis's non-family podcast is with one of his best friends, and Travis is also probably the least anxious of the bunch. Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think they find themselves charming; I think it's more "I'm going to pretend I'm just having fun with my brothers because if I think too hard about the thousands of people listening, I'm going to throw up." On the other hand, feeling like he's going to throw up is kinda Griffin's default state.

Social interaction is painful for them (except maybe Travis), and they've all managed to carve out a living from talking to many many people. What comes across as finding themselves charming may well just be them running at breakneck speed so they can avoid thinking about that.
posted by booksherpa at 10:17 PM on March 10, 2019 [23 favorites]


I listen to my MBMBAM every week, like many podcast fans, think they have blind spots but do work to improve on them.

I pretty much never recommend them because podcasts by three white guys don't need more of the market share, there's other podcasts I can be recommending.

I really can't agree that they're communists. Call me a gatekeeper all you want, but these words have meanings.
I saw this earlier today and messaged a friend who turns out to have watched it, her take-away was more similar to my assumption, they're all just varying degrees of liberal. Maybe socdems at best.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 10:18 PM on March 10, 2019 [4 favorites]


The best I can come up with is that I can never like someone who likes themselves as much as the McElroys do

See, for me, I think the definitive thing is that I have a very strong sense that they like each other. I remember the thing that really got me listening to the podcast after having had it sort of loosely orbiting my social media feeds as some abstract "thing some of my friends like" was listening to a bit where they were just cracking up and unable to proceed. I have no idea what it was, just something that Griffin was halfway straightfacing and Justin was absolutely losing it and crying and slapping the table.

And that description doesn't really get at it, because that specific dynamic could be any set of people and actually land any number of ways, dudes talking and laughing and whatever. But there's an element of just...genuine shared joy when they get going. Justin's not gasping for breath because that's the bit, he's not doing it to convince the listener that what's happening is definitely funny etc.; he's just actually losing his shit because he actually really really likes the dumb comedy thing his brother is doing. It's the sort of thing that if put through a cynical lens would be deeply cynical indeed but it has never, ever landed that way for me.

Everything else aside they seem to be three brothers who really fucking enjoy each other's company in a genuine and mutually appreciative way. It reminds me of my own brother, and of the absolutely stupid giggling fits we've gotten each other into over the years telling each other dumb jokes or running with some silly riff until it stops being funny and then starts being funny again.
posted by cortex at 10:39 PM on March 10, 2019 [27 favorites]


It is? For any particular reason, or the usual "Oh, this thing is really popular and lots of people like it, so the way to be edgy is to very publically sneer at it."?

I thought we were more at the "like the creators but distance yourself from the fanbase" stage with the McElroys.

Pretty sure their actual politics are mostly garden variety (but good-natured) liberalism though.
posted by atoxyl at 11:37 PM on March 10, 2019 [4 favorites]


Everything else aside they seem to be three brothers who really fucking enjoy each other's company in a genuine and mutually appreciative way.

This is, in a way, part of my wariness of the McElroys. I only listen to The Aventure Zone and only for the Amnisty storyline. They seem like nice people, but the rest of the product line does not particularly appeal to me. They fall into that uncomfortable area where what they are selling is that image of friendliness and camaraderie, but they are selling it. As pointed out upthread, these podcasts are their jobs, and that creates, at least for me, a weird tension, because They need to keep selling a sort of spontaneous intimacy in order to attract an audience, but that selling works against that intimacy. For me it ends up feeling fake and forced.

Which is, you know, My Thing, and not yours; if you don’t feel the tension, if you enjoy all things McElroys, more power to you. We can all use more enjoyment in life. I certainly don’t hope that some evil skeleton is uncovered in one of their closets; that’s just… Literally asking for trouble. Who wants to feel bad or for the world to be worse?
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:03 AM on March 11, 2019 [4 favorites]


It's weird. I think the McElroys seem to be good, kind, smart people. But I also find them weirdly annoying, but in a way that makes me think the problem is me, not them. But though I don't engage with their stuff, I wish them well since they seem like good eggs.

(That said, I watched this video last night and thought it was pretty insightful.)
posted by Rev. Syung Myung Me at 12:07 AM on March 11, 2019 [4 favorites]


I like them. I enjoy their podcasts. So does my daughter. We both like how they treat each other as a family, and dig that yes, their father was a broadcaster and they're podcasters so it runs in the family and it seems perfect that it is in this space they exercise some of their affection.

I was just listening to a maxfun drive bonus episode, where they (along with the director) do commentary on one episode of their TV show, and they mention that the parts done with their dad were the easiest because he made them feel comfortable. Contrast that with their painful navigation of the red carpet episode, on their own in a very public and unfamiliar environment surrounded by intimidating professionals; listening to them support and encourage each other when they're all flailing gives me the strongest sense that it really is under the guise of recording together that they strengthen their bonds.

Given the starting point of mbmbam (as an excuse to keep in touch when a second brother was moving away from their hometown) and their family history of broadcasting together (I stumbled across a video from way-back-when featuring their dad doing a featurette for the news with a very young Griffin at his side) and the whole thing tracks with sincerity.
posted by davejay at 12:26 AM on March 11, 2019 [7 favorites]


youtube-dl -i —audio-format mp3 http://YOUR_VIDEO_URL_GOES_HERE
posted by wenestvedt at 3:05 AM on March 11, 2019 [4 favorites]


Baby that's communism

I am really bothered at the banal ahistorical reductiveness of this take on the definition of communism.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:56 AM on March 11, 2019 [15 favorites]


They fall into that uncomfortable area where what they are selling is that image of friendliness and camaraderie, but they are selling it.

I certainly fall in to this trap quite a lot, and I think it's not uncommon - we want our "content creators" (ugh) to be pure of heart and intent, and we want them to be successful... but simultaneously we don't want them to "sell out." Because as soon as that earnest, pure creator actually becomes capable of maintaining a lifestyle doing their creative work, then that work becomes crass commercialism.

And in this age of intimate audience feedback, I don't necessarily think it's wrong to worry about that! There's a fine line where success can drive someone to want to hew closer to fan service in order to maintain engagement and subscription rates. The creator and the community start looking inward, and the whole thing becomes more and more insular. It seems like an easy trap to fall in to.

Personally, I'm not convinced that the McElroys have quite fallen in to that trap just yet. My impression has been that they genuinely care about everyone in their own socially anxious ways. I agree that they seem to be feeding off of each other in an effort to keep ahead of the demons; you can kind of see that when you look at some of the scripted stuff they've attempted (c.f. voiceover work for 100 Foot Robot Golf which was... underwhelming at best).
posted by backseatpilot at 4:53 AM on March 11, 2019 [7 favorites]


I was only recently absorbed into the McElroys orbit, mostly through Polygon's Monster Factory. My partner and I are big fans but we're also not consuming them on a day to day basis. I feel like they're a bit like candy, too much of them and you're going to feel bad, but just the right dosage and you'll enjoy yourself.

Also, Sawbones is definitely worth checking out. It has just enough of that McEleroys flavour, but not so much that you feel like you just ate an entire sheet of cake by yourself.
posted by Fizz at 5:01 AM on March 11, 2019 [4 favorites]


Personally, as a rabid radio fan, I'm mostly looking for all bummers as a theme. Podcasts that don't make me want to punch a wall or walk into the sea at least once per episode rarely convince me come back for more. The world is filled with media empires that thrive on happy endings.

The world is filled with media empires that thrive on bummers all the time: its called the news, all news, any news. Fox is all bummers about the democrats. Everyone else is all bummers about climate change, poverty, whatever political party is in power, racism you name it. Hell, the news arguably exists because people know that there are some real bummers out there and they want to hear about them, and the news persists by making everything sound like a bummer. The thirst for unhappiness is not an underserved market.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:58 AM on March 11, 2019 [17 favorites]


me: youtube-dl -i —audio-format mp3 http://YOUR_VIDEO_URL_GOES_HERE

Also works with playlists, BTW:
youtube-dl -x --audio-format mp3 -i https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=BLAH_BLAH_BLAH
posted by wenestvedt at 6:15 AM on March 11, 2019 [1 favorite]


I admit it took me a long time to warm up to the McElroys and MBMBaM routinely drifts to the bottom of my to-listen list, but I think eotvos hit the nail on the head when they said:

they seem like good people who spend their time making others happy.

I 100% get why you may personally dislike the McElroys or be annoyed that it's yet another set of popular straight white dudes, but they're not actually hurting anyone. I haven't seen any substantial criticism of them in this thread. They're doing something they enjoy doing that is making a lot of people happy and they get to live comfortably as a result. They flat-out admit they're privileged white dudes but they consistently and openly work to keep from being shitheads. The internet is full of popular white men who daily demonstrate why they don't deserve their popularity, I don't count the McElroys among them.

If you're waiting for them to screw up so you can rationalize the distaste you always had for them, maybe find something healthier to do with your time? If you find their camaraderie distasteful or offputting, I'm sorry, but I think that has more to do with you than them.

Lastly, I agree it's a little weird to call them Communists. They're liberals and leftists at best, but I also think the term "communist" has been poisoned by decades of propaganda and if it will ever be rehabilitated one way will be by associating it with likeable personalities promoting popular socialist ideologies.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 6:37 AM on March 11, 2019 [15 favorites]


Seize popular media figures along with the means of production!
posted by Going To Maine at 6:46 AM on March 11, 2019 [11 favorites]


I watched the linked video yesterday and enjoyed it. When I saw the thread on the Blue, I was interested to see what others think of the video. It's a shame that most of this thread has turned into a roll call of "McElroys: Y/N" but I think that's probably inevitable.

I'm tempted to suit up and start swinging a sword on their behalf in here, especially with some of the nastier descriptions, but it's not worth it and they don't need my help.

As Sarah describes repeatedly in the video, there's a reason that a large portion of their fanbase are queer. I'm grateful for what they do and how they do it. Not everything has to be for everybody, and that's okay.
posted by lazaruslong at 6:50 AM on March 11, 2019 [12 favorites]


I guess I'd be interested in the McElroys if they'd use their huge popularity to publish and promote those less privileged. They don't have to step down, but if they're not making sure the voices they're broadcasting are at least as diverse as the planet itself then I'm not going to be in their audience.

You say they're not hurting anyone, but I say they're taking up space on a stage that has seen far more white dudes than any other type of presenter. I don't dislike them, but I won't listen to them because their white dude stories have already been told by an essentially infinite series of white dudes who came before.

I want new stories. I want new voices.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:53 AM on March 11, 2019 [3 favorites]


I really like their stuff. I think they're good guys with good intentions and I enjoy their humor. It feels very safe and un-challenging. Sometimes when I'm feeling anxious or having trouble sleeping, it's nice to listen to people joke around who clearly care about each other very much, who aren't going to go into bummersville.

I think their politics are very liberal but I'm sort of doubtful that "communism" is the right label.

I do worry that they've sort of written themselves into a corner where they have to keep doing this forever. All three brothers plus their dad are full time podcasters now. There's probably a lot of pressure for them to stay on-brand. I could imagine one of them wanting to branch out or do something different or more "edgy" (not sure what that would look like) but not wanting to put their brothers' and their dad's livelihoods at risk. That seems like it could stifle creativity over the long run.
posted by beandip at 8:04 AM on March 11, 2019 [2 favorites]


i've been a fan of the mcelroy brothers since before they were The McElroy Brothers, back when justin and griffin were just my favorite funny joystiq writers and travis was their weird other brother they decided to start a podcast with. so i am clearly biased about them but also i think i have the long term insight to say they're not selling anything except their genuine dynamic and affection for each other. it's not a put on. it's not played up. it's just three brothers who happened to have the perfect storm of an upbringing to grow up into comedy machines. for all the talk of "oh don't listen to the old episodes," in terms of format and content they're pretty much exactly the same (except for the occasional problematic bit which they've very publicly grown out of). they've spent their whole lives trying to make each other laugh, and the podcast is still just them, doing that, there's just an audience now. the idea that they're some "made by committee" entertainment is truly insane to me given that they've literally built their entire careers from the ground up off nothing but their own relationship.

if they're not making sure the voices they're broadcasting are at least as diverse as the planet itself then I'm not going to be in their audience.

i think travis especially has made a point of collaborating mostly with women, including queer women, but given most of their projects are "here's something i made with my family" i'm not really sure what they could be doing better here? consider also that they host the two most popular shows on Maximum Fun, and their presence on the network effectively subsidizes smaller shows hosted by women, queer people, and POC (which they also regularly advertise for on their own show).

You say they're not hurting anyone, but I say they're taking up space on a stage that has seen far more white dudes than any other type of presenter.

and yet they still have a huge queer and POC audience, because they actually do the work to be good and respectful allies in a way 99% of white dudes don't even bother to attempt. that's literally what the video in the FPP is about.
posted by JimBennett at 8:18 AM on March 11, 2019 [28 favorites]


I think I can sum up the McElroys' politics much more simply than this (great) video:

1. Be Cool
2. C'mon
3. Niiiice

posted by Rock Steady at 8:25 AM on March 11, 2019 [4 favorites]


They're all pretty open about their various levels of social anxiety disorder. All the nervous giggling and laughter at their own jokes has always struck me more as a combination of genuine amusement at what they were reading or what another person was saying, or nervousness.

Yeah, I've been listening to a bunch of the TAZ live shows lately and one of the things that is a recurring pattern that stands out to me is the bit with "house lights on, let's see that cosplay!" followed very quickly by both Griffin and Justin expressing one of those ha-ha-I-actually-am-uncomfortable jokes about how terrifying they found being able to see the entire audience or pretending the audience wasn't "really" there. It's the kind of joke that my more anxious friends often make as a way to both seek a little reassurance without distorting the interaction around the fear and let people around them know what's going on at the same time. Honestly, it's a bit I have a lot of affection for.

I uh, also find it interesting that a person going "I know it's trendy to hate on the McElroys but" got a whole lot of people going "what?!" in the midst of, er... a lot of folks using a FPP centered on the McElroys to go "I never liked them and this is why!"

They're not saving the world with dumb jokes or anything, but I really appreciate having a definitely joyous place to go listen to that is never going to intentionally pick me or someone like me up and crucify for a joke. That's sometimes harder to find than you'd think: comedy can be one of the hardest places to find that kind of relaxation for me. I don't think they're that for everyone, but for me, that's hard enough to find that I cherish it.
posted by sciatrix at 8:50 AM on March 11, 2019 [12 favorites]


I'm not sure "space" is that zero-sum, in their main medium at least - though if anyone is capable of producing enough 'casts to fill the pod firmament I suppose it's the McElroys.
posted by atoxyl at 9:22 AM on March 11, 2019 [2 favorites]


Here's a public service announcement. You are all allowed to dislike whatever you dislike. You are allowed to express that dislike. You do not have to justify it. If you try to justify it post hoc without any real basis in the qualities of the thing you dislike you will look kinda dumb.
posted by howfar at 10:02 AM on March 11, 2019 [6 favorites]


Also the "voices of the privileged" stuff really neglects the fact that all three brothers have mental health conditions and that one of them has a neurodevelopmental disability, that this is central to what they do, and that they are very effective advocates for a particular subsection of disabled people.
posted by howfar at 10:05 AM on March 11, 2019 [16 favorites]


They don't have to step down, but if they're not making sure the voices they're broadcasting are at least as diverse as the planet itself then I'm not going to be in their audience (boldface mine)

I mean. Is there literally any piece of media, anywhere, that represents 100% of the global human experience? This bar seems...high...for a thing you listen to while you are in the shower.

Not to say that I wouldn't listen to a podcast that was just, every individual alive on Earth, talking, forever, about the fullness of their experience. I'm just saying that afterwards I would probably still like to hear some jokes about haunted dolls.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:23 AM on March 11, 2019 [10 favorites]


If you try to justify it post hoc without any real basis in the qualities of the thing you dislike you will look kinda dumb.

indeed. I don't have much else to say about the broad existential-McElroy-question going on here except it feels weird, unnecessary and dispiriting that it's happening in the context of this thread

I watched the video in question here yesterday, and took their "it's communism! congratulations everyone, you're a communist now" as slightly tongue-in-cheek oversimplification of the nice summation given just before that bit (which someone quoted above).

my main thought while watching was twofold: one, that I feel not super comfortable about this sort of close-reading analysis when you're using it to determine someone's political beliefs as opposed to simply making a particular reading of a text; two, it's weird if you are going down that road that you don't get into the circumstances of their mom's death particularly as applied to TAZ: Balance. (the YTer mentions that content about that was cut for time, but it feels too integral to to McElroy's personal connection and motivation for the work to be cutting-room-floor fodder when you're trying to discuss their personal political/sociopolitical leanings)

but that all being said, I generally agreed with and enjoyed the video on the particular merits. Sarah's work has slowly crept into my YT recommendations as I dig further into breadtube; I'll be checking more out moving forward for sure
posted by Kybard at 10:27 AM on March 11, 2019 [5 favorites]


Two things I wish had been part of that video, which is interesting in that it deals with a purely textual analysis vs looking at their overt political or philosophical statements either in interviews or on Twitter*

1) They've said that their turning point of learning to listen to their audience and be more thoughtful about their humor was some pretty unkind joking about furries. That they took that as the moment to be kind instead of doubling down says a lot to me that I can't quite articulate.

2) I really wanted her to bring Clint into the discussion, and specifically the "are you my friend"/Choose Joy bit**, since she spent a lot of time on the nature of John Hunger as the Big Bad. (Once you've visualized him as actual Morrissey, you can't unsee that.)

And actually, most of the discussion of TAZ focuses on the parts that Griffin wrote (and in particular on the endgame) when I think the contributions of the others have just as much to say about the moral/political bent of the collective McElroy creative output. The implications of "do good recklessly," for example.

TAZ became my hyperfocus about 2 years ago, and I'm honestly glad, because it has given me touchstones and ways of thinking about how I live my life that I really needed. Plus a incredibly strong network of friends; I am right now looking at a piece of art by one of them that says "choose joy" on it.

Their works may not be a call to communism or whatever (for actual political engagement, follow Sydnee's stuff) but the implied politics are a much better kinder more engaged option to South Park*** and its ilk.

* fwiw, I've seen a screencap of their tweets after the 2016 election that sort of sums up their overall Hot Take Styles, with varying levels of sincerity and irony

** which gets into the whole reaction to death, because apparently that's one of Mom McElroy's philosophies, and so that being part of the resolution? amazing.

*** the comparisons with South Park are extremely useful, and I think it's worth noting when they (usually Griffin) reference it on MBMBaM (and not positively!)
posted by epersonae at 11:49 AM on March 11, 2019 [4 favorites]


The best I can come up with is that I can never like someone who likes themselves as much as the McElroys do and I could never be charmed by anyone who finds themselves as charming as they do.

I'm pretty certain the McElroys would say that your take is correct and that they are baffled why anyone feels differently.
posted by straight at 12:20 PM on March 11, 2019 [4 favorites]


And actually, most of the discussion of TAZ focuses on the parts that Griffin wrote (and in particular on the endgame) when I think the contributions of the others have just as much to say about the moral/political bent of the collective McElroy creative output.

This is something that I was itching to see addressed more thoroughly. The video, I think, treats TAZ as if it is primarily Griffin's story, when it's not. It is, instead, something produced collaboratively. If you're trying to argue that the McElroys are all communist (which, I don't think is appropriate and, also, which I don't think the video is earnestly trying to do), then this seems significant, right? Their most meaningful and popular art piece is produced through a collaborative, communal endeavor.

I forget where I first saw this raised, but it's something I think about whenever I think back on the later portions of TAZ: the amount that they all had to trust each other, for the story to work. Griffin created the conceit that allowed Merle to meet with John Hunger--but he had to trust that Clint would be able to use those meetings to good end. Griffin didn't write "Are you my friend," and he clearly was downright surprised by it, and that moment was able to exist because Griffin and Clint have such trust in each other. Similarly, Travis created Magnus, with his amazingly strong love of all animals--and when Magnus met the voidfish, Travis had to trust that Griffin had ways of making the story work, even with Magnus's absolute refusal to leave the voidfish. Griffin developed the backstory of the voidfish being at the BOB, knowing who Magnus is and how Travis plays, and Travis interacted with the voidfish the way that he did, knowing how Griffin's DMing works. But it's deeper than that: I don't think that Travis ever doubted for a second that Griffin's plan could allow him to try to save the voidfish, and I don't think that Griffin ever doubted for a second that Travis would have Magnus try to save it. And think about how, during the finale, Griffin is able to intersperse cut-scenes between Magnus and the Bear. None of that was planned! It's not like they figured out ahead of time what Magnus would experience with the Bear, which would be relevant at that very point in the finale--instead, that series of cut-scenes required an immense amount of trust and mutual knowledge, to work. And! Think of the brilliant moment, where Taako says "...who?" That moment, more than anything else in the whole of TAZ, is a product of collaborative storytelling. Justin trusted his brother's plan, and he anticipated where the story was going. He reacted, in the moment, as fit his character's circumstances, because he knew his brother, he knew the story they were creating together, and he earnestly cared about both.

(I think "...who?" is particularly noteworthy, given what we know about the momentary tension between Justin and Griffin, regarding Taako's backstory. There was a lapse of trust, when [major spoiler, you totally know what I'm referring to if you've listened to TAZ] is revealed. I'm fascinated by how the relationship between Justin and Griffin, with regard to Taako, advanced from that moment of confusion and distrust, to the incredibly powerful "...who?")

They know each other so well, they can anticipate each other. The trust they all have is a trust that is built from a deep and intimate love. TAZ is the specific story it is because it was produced by a family that loves and trusts and knows one another. TAZ couldn't be the way it was, if it weren't for that trust, that love, that intimacy.
posted by meese at 12:20 PM on March 11, 2019 [11 favorites]


Now I'm pondering the meaning of "yes and" as an ethical framework.......

(also, re Magnus and the Power Bear: "the meaning of strength is asking for help from your friends" changed my goddamn life, no exaggeration)
posted by epersonae at 12:54 PM on March 11, 2019 [2 favorites]


Sawbones is the only McElroy podcast I can tolerate, and I can only tolerate it when Justin is not playing dumb. I get that it's a persona and that it helps move the exposition along and places Justin as a foil to Sydnee, but every now and then he will slip and say something really intelligent and I wish he'd be like that all the time.
posted by fiercecupcake at 1:03 PM on March 11, 2019 [1 favorite]


One of the things I really love about having gotten my partner into TAZ from exactly your position, fiercecupcake ("I like Sawbones, ideally when Justin isn't talking and definitely not playing stupid") to the point where they recently suggest that we try MBMBAM--which I don't ordinarily listen to--is getting to watch their reaction to that cheerful shift Justin will do from playing-up-the-idiot to suddenly having extremely pointed opinions about Nathenial Hawthorne.

He's not a math and science dude, but he's not stupid either. And IDK, I appreciate that! I really appreciate that sense of "yeah good luck pinning down what I do and don't know" from all three of them, and I like that it serves as a reminder of one of the great central tenets of my life (which is: "you never know when someone is going to know something really fascinating.")

Also the "voices of the privileged" stuff really neglects the fact that all three brothers have mental health conditions and that one of them has a neurodevelopmental disability, that this is central to what they do, and that they are very effective advocates for a particular subsection of disabled people.

Oh fuck yes. Uh, I know Travis has mentioned having ADHD; is there someone else I don't know about? Regardless, Justin's aggressive ranting about anti-vaxxers in particular and how utterly fucked-up the whole thing about it being better to be dead than autistic really makes me feel comfortable on Sawbones--the fury he has on my behalf is, uh. Nice. Generally, having had this discussion recently with my also-autistic spouse: not one of them really reads all that NT to me, if you're familiar with enough people on the spectrum to have gotten past stereotypes. I believe the comment T made was "Travis might be allistic? Maybe?" and then he mentioned the ADHD thing. Which: uh, yeah, not surprising, either. It's just, it's fucking nice, okay?

In terms of "not actually helping," note that they are very active in local charity for their (current or childhood) home of Huntingdon, West Virginia.

GOD this I know, right? Like, all y'all focusing on their lack of representation: do you have any idea how Appalachia is? Like, do you know how poor and frequently-dismissed WV in general is, how often pieces overrwrite everyone from Appalachia, how often that region is the target of dismissal and classism and nasty shit from people who otherwise are pretty insistent on being politically correct and inclusive on other dimensions? Again, this is one of the poorest states in the US--almost twenty percent of people living below the poverty line! It's always been poor! It's always been the butt of rural inbred redneck jokes!

I have a lot of respect for West Virginia, and I have a lot of respect for the people of West Virginia. And the fact that the McElroys are pretty determined to bring good things both to their home city and their state, where there really is a lot of need, has raised them higher in my estimation. I do not for one minute think that Griffin's choice to locate TAZ Amnesty in West Virginia was coincidental or simply a product of nostalgia, and I do not for one second think that any McElroy is not hyperaware of the way they present the region in any of their work.
posted by sciatrix at 1:29 PM on March 11, 2019 [12 favorites]


GOD this I know, right? Like, all y'all focusing on their lack of representation: do you have any idea how Appalachia is? Like, do you know how poor and frequently-dismissed WV in general is, how often pieces overrwrite everyone from Appalachia, how often that region is the target of dismissal and classism and nasty shit from people who otherwise are pretty insistent on being politically correct and inclusive on other dimensions? Again, this is one of the poorest states in the US--almost twenty percent of people living below the poverty line! It's always been poor! It's always been the butt of rural inbred redneck jokes!

oh my god yes I should absolutely start donating to Maximum Fun just for the service of having people in the media from Appalachia (like me!) to point to who are kind and funny and caring and inclusive. those boys are rooted deep in west virginia and it means, as someone who grew up in a similar area, so much to me that they're out there, not apologizing for it, not excusing their home region, just acknowledging it, loving it, and trying to make it better.
posted by WidgetAlley at 2:01 PM on March 11, 2019 [8 favorites]


Also, "Be Cool," among other things, means "Other people are allowed to not like the things I like and I am not threatened by that."

If you wanna order chicken tenders no matter where we go out to eat, I am glad you are enjoying your meal.
posted by straight at 2:03 PM on March 11, 2019 [2 favorites]


not gonna lie: as someone who is more than anywhere else from NoVa, I have so much historical respect for WV? like this is a state that literally founded itself in being told "hey you're part of the Confederacy now" and going "um like hell we are" and seceded from the Confederacy and the rest of the state right the fuck back

not to mention all the unionizing powerhouses and the for lack of a better word, weaponized stubbornness

there's an awful lot to respect about the people of Appalachia even in the face of a lot of external exploitation and, again, did I mention the intergenerational poverty thing? because it's important to understanding the region! but despite it there is so much to love about Appalachia and Appalachians and I too am so glad they are out there, not apologizing.

posted by sciatrix at 2:09 PM on March 11, 2019 [9 favorites]


Think of the brilliant moment, where Taako says "...who?"

"Who?" is the best narrative experience of my life, and at first, I fully assumed it was at least planned out roughly, if not written explicitly. The reveal in The The Adventure Zone Zone that it really was an ad lib absolutely blew my mind. I've seen a fair amount of improv, and that was phenomenal.
posted by Rock Steady at 2:34 PM on March 11, 2019 [5 favorites]


I know Travis has mentioned having ADHD; is there someone else I don't know about?

Justin has spoken about his anxiety in a number of places. There's an episode of Sawbones where he talks about it at length (and Sydnee talks about her experiences with post-partum depression). And there are a number of different places in MBMBAM where Justin brings up his anxiety, although he often jokes about it. Note that the infamous "Glass Shark" segment really begins with Just talking about how anxious he was as a child.

Oh, also, in a totally different realm of discussion: Griffin has IBS.
posted by meese at 2:49 PM on March 11, 2019 [2 favorites]


i think travis has also talked abut having NPD before.
posted by JimBennett at 2:50 PM on March 11, 2019 [1 favorite]


Griffin has IBS.

Now this is the kind of representation I crave.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 5:07 PM on March 11, 2019 [3 favorites]


I'm surprised the video didn't mention the subversive anti-marketing of Munch Squad, which is all about dunking on how hollow and ridiculous the worst excesses of synergistic PR buzzword bullshit can get. Like a little dose of Colbert's fantastic Wheat Thins bit every week.
posted by Rhaomi at 10:31 PM on March 11, 2019 [3 favorites]


I started listening to MBMBaM while driving my teen to events. I’m from WV originally, closer to Clint’s age than to the brothers. I didn’t immediately dig the podcast, but listened to share something my son enjoyed. And then ... they addressed a question from a guy about how he should approach the cashier he was crushing on. And their answer, rather than addressing his “how to” question was an unabashed NO DO NOT DO THIS! And explaining why it was wrong to put someone in a service job in such a vulnerable position. And I was so thankful that my son got this message, and other consent-oriented information, from guys not all that much older than him. I decided it was worth the dick jokes. And Munch Squad makes me genuinely laugh. (I also have a Summer Jesus bit written out and posted by my writing desk.) (And Ghost Horse is a regular earworm around here.)

The Adventure Zone was a very encouraging experience for me. As someone preparing to launch my son into the world, I’d wondered if there was some way we could share non-holiday interactions without me becoming the dread hovering mom. (Location: Southern US) Clint’s interactions with his adult sons gave me a new, more imaginative framework for envisioning what our future familial relationship might look like.

I’ve also been impressed with their willingness to address their flaws, errors, and cultural blind spots and try to work on them. And their recurring support to uplift their home community. They don’t present, to me, as people who love themselves overmuch, but as people who are trying to love themselves. I identify with that.
posted by Nancy_LockIsLit_Palmer at 9:39 AM on March 12, 2019 [11 favorites]


Griffin has discussed having anxiety and, from his recent description of his medication on Wonderful, also has a depressive condition of some sort. Justin has talked specifically about a Generalised Anxiety Disorder diagnosis. Travis's comments about his mental health are a bit more confusing and complex (he has been very straightforward about his ADHD diagnosis), but I think it's fair to say that he both identifies as someone with a mental health condition and exhibits behaviours that are indicative of this; however I do not know if he has a formal MH diagnosis.

For me, the McElroys openness about these issues, and importantly, the particular kind of incidental openness they exhibit, is an important type of representation. It's important to me, as a person with a comorbity between mental health and neurodevelopmental disability, to be seen and able to see those aspects of myself represented in a positive way that does not focus mainly on disability. If there is a point to the Jesse Thorn/McElroy (it feels like the "incidentally but passionately socially-conscious business" that the McElroys run is very strongly influenced by Thorn's brand and apparent working practices) approach to sincerity and openness is that it feels consciously designed to create space for this kind of representation for all kinds of groups, which they make efforts (often imperfectly) to use in a helpful and supportive way, including by being open about the complexities of their own lives. The main benefit of this approach seems to be that it often makes their shows more entertaining to a more diverse group of people, which is great. I think (maybe) it is often easy to see diverse representation in entertainment more as a means to a political end (and of course it does have that value) than as an end in itself (the end being better and more entertaining media). I feel like the McElroys are much better than most at aiming their work at a diverse audience, rather than simply a large one. Works for me most of the time, anyway.

This is why I find some of the apparent contempt in this thread a bit surprising. The McElroys feel like a pretty clear net positive to me.
posted by howfar at 11:12 AM on March 12, 2019 [10 favorites]


And on a related point, kudos to the McElroys for spending a significant amount of money to get their back catalogue of MaxFun shows transcribed, which is going to help MaxFun get a fair amount of new material transcribed. That's a big accessibility step for a range of groups, and it's good to see people putting their money where their mouth is.
posted by howfar at 10:54 AM on April 3, 2019 [7 favorites]


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