sea water will just go under a wall, like a salty ghost
April 3, 2019 8:15 AM Subscribe
“The scientists, economists, and environmentalists that are saying this stuff, they don’t realize what a wealthy area this is.” She said that she lived here and wasn’t leaving, and that the people selling Miami were confident, and all working on the same goal as a community to maintain this place, with the pumps and the zoning and raising the streets. There were just too many millionaires and billionaires here for a disaster on a great scale to be allowed to take place.Heaven or High Water - Selling Miami's last 50 years
There's an award-winning short film here where this Miami real estate agent has the same conversation with Death.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 8:26 AM on April 3, 2019 [15 favorites]
posted by lefty lucky cat at 8:26 AM on April 3, 2019 [15 favorites]
People who are that wealthy do not give a shit about the environment they are destroying, news at 11.
posted by Melismata at 8:30 AM on April 3, 2019 [11 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 8:30 AM on April 3, 2019 [11 favorites]
Now that I've got my zing in, that really is a beautifully-written article.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 8:32 AM on April 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by lefty lucky cat at 8:32 AM on April 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
Gotta love Popula; they have some of the most fascinating writing on the web, IMO.
posted by suelac at 8:49 AM on April 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by suelac at 8:49 AM on April 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
Ah. The clogs of Holland.
posted by notreally at 8:51 AM on April 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by notreally at 8:51 AM on April 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
There were just too many millionaires and billionaires here for a disaster on a great scale to be allowed to take place.
The best part is, when the disaster takes place, the millionaires and billionaires will just up sticks and go somewhere else. They won't be thrilled with the monetary loss but they'll just go be slightly less rich millionaires and billionaires elsewhere.
posted by tclark at 8:51 AM on April 3, 2019 [23 favorites]
The best part is, when the disaster takes place, the millionaires and billionaires will just up sticks and go somewhere else. They won't be thrilled with the monetary loss but they'll just go be slightly less rich millionaires and billionaires elsewhere.
posted by tclark at 8:51 AM on April 3, 2019 [23 favorites]
Amazingly, in the face of these incontrovertible facts about the climate the business of luxury real estate is chugging along just fine, and I wanted to see the cognitive dissonance up close.
Cargo cults built around a deep tolerance for cognitive dissonance will, I'm guessing, become a feature of American life as things deteriorate.
Reading this made me think about Catherynne Valente’s recent story “The Sun in Exile,” which features a leader called Papa Ubu that wears winter gear while the world swelters and bans anyone from saying "hot", haranguing his followers with stories of how cold it actually is.
posted by ryanshepard at 8:54 AM on April 3, 2019 [11 favorites]
Cargo cults built around a deep tolerance for cognitive dissonance will, I'm guessing, become a feature of American life as things deteriorate.
Reading this made me think about Catherynne Valente’s recent story “The Sun in Exile,” which features a leader called Papa Ubu that wears winter gear while the world swelters and bans anyone from saying "hot", haranguing his followers with stories of how cold it actually is.
posted by ryanshepard at 8:54 AM on April 3, 2019 [11 favorites]
The whole time I was there I was like, yeah, I could see why no one wants to admit how fucked this place is.
Epitaph for the planet.
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:57 AM on April 3, 2019 [16 favorites]
Epitaph for the planet.
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:57 AM on April 3, 2019 [16 favorites]
“My friend is active in the local civic world, but says he’s skeptical even of the activist discourse around sea level rise. “There’s all this talk about ‘sustainability’ and ‘resilience,’ he said, “and it kind of sounds to me like “what’s the least we can do in order to keep the party going?”
America in a nutshell
posted by The Whelk at 9:00 AM on April 3, 2019 [28 favorites]
America in a nutshell
posted by The Whelk at 9:00 AM on April 3, 2019 [28 favorites]
"I want to say two words to you. Just two words. Are you listening?"
"Boat slips."
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:03 AM on April 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
"Boat slips."
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:03 AM on April 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
This was amazing but I doubt the people who need to hear it the most can hear it at all.
...when the disaster takes place, the millionaires and billionaires will just up sticks and go somewhere else. They won't be thrilled with the monetary loss but they'll just go be slightly less rich millionaires and billionaires elsewhere.
At least some of them will bitch and bitch and bitch and bitch about how $LOCALITY eventually refused to redouble their expenditures on minimally-effective climate-mitigation band-aids again, which made the millionaires feel unwanted. Hmph! I guess $LOCALITY doesn't deserve to be graced with the presence of quality people anymore! Government just can't do anything right!
posted by Western Infidels at 9:03 AM on April 3, 2019 [12 favorites]
...when the disaster takes place, the millionaires and billionaires will just up sticks and go somewhere else. They won't be thrilled with the monetary loss but they'll just go be slightly less rich millionaires and billionaires elsewhere.
At least some of them will bitch and bitch and bitch and bitch about how $LOCALITY eventually refused to redouble their expenditures on minimally-effective climate-mitigation band-aids again, which made the millionaires feel unwanted. Hmph! I guess $LOCALITY doesn't deserve to be graced with the presence of quality people anymore! Government just can't do anything right!
posted by Western Infidels at 9:03 AM on April 3, 2019 [12 favorites]
The best part is, when the disaster takes place, the millionaires and billionaires will just up sticks and go somewhere else. They won't be thrilled with the monetary loss but they'll just go be slightly less rich millionaires and billionaires elsewhere.
I'm reading David Wallace-Wells' book on climate change, The Uninhabitable Earth, and the one statistic that seems relevant here is that the cost for already-baked-in climate change (i.e. if we stopped totally emitting carbon today, we'd still get to this point) in in excess of the total amount of money in the world.
Never mind the thing about how the climate change death toll might equal 25 Holocausts. And this all stuff emitted only up to, like, the 1990s.
posted by Automocar at 9:11 AM on April 3, 2019
I'm reading David Wallace-Wells' book on climate change, The Uninhabitable Earth, and the one statistic that seems relevant here is that the cost for already-baked-in climate change (i.e. if we stopped totally emitting carbon today, we'd still get to this point) in in excess of the total amount of money in the world.
Never mind the thing about how the climate change death toll might equal 25 Holocausts. And this all stuff emitted only up to, like, the 1990s.
posted by Automocar at 9:11 AM on April 3, 2019
Amazingly, in the face of these incontrovertible facts about the climate the business of luxury real estate is chugging along just fine
A relevant story in the Texas Tribune about real estate development in Houston inside a reservoir. You can guess what happened when Hurricane Harvey hit in 2017. The developers who wanted to build there get in bed with local government and/or rail against it until they're allowed to do so, sell the properties in the doomed subdivisions to unknowing buyers, and then wash their hands of any responsibility when the rain comes. The residents have their lives destroyed, the government gets the blame (and the bill for disaster relief) for not protecting against flooding* and the developers make bank.
*Even though the raison d'etre of the reservoirs is... to protect against flooding!
posted by lefty lucky cat at 9:15 AM on April 3, 2019 [25 favorites]
A relevant story in the Texas Tribune about real estate development in Houston inside a reservoir. You can guess what happened when Hurricane Harvey hit in 2017. The developers who wanted to build there get in bed with local government and/or rail against it until they're allowed to do so, sell the properties in the doomed subdivisions to unknowing buyers, and then wash their hands of any responsibility when the rain comes. The residents have their lives destroyed, the government gets the blame (and the bill for disaster relief) for not protecting against flooding* and the developers make bank.
*Even though the raison d'etre of the reservoirs is... to protect against flooding!
posted by lefty lucky cat at 9:15 AM on April 3, 2019 [25 favorites]
I ran out of time to read the complete article, so maybe it was mentioned, but isn't the entire shoreline of Florida insured by the federal government?
posted by Brocktoon at 9:19 AM on April 3, 2019
posted by Brocktoon at 9:19 AM on April 3, 2019
I’ve been following Popula for the last few months and really enjoy it and Sarah Miller’s writing. Highly recommend!
posted by sallybrown at 9:20 AM on April 3, 2019
posted by sallybrown at 9:20 AM on April 3, 2019
My parents are lifetime experts in ignoring what they don't want to know, but they have a condo on the beach in Ft. Lauderdale. We had a discussion where I was talking about a NYT article I'd read on the limestone and flooding, and they poo-poo'd it immensely. A few minutes later they were complaining about how their lower-level parking lots flood even when it's not raining. But, you see, their condo is above the parking lot and so no big deal!
It really is astonishing but...then one gradually realizes we are all doing this daily when it comes to climate change.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:23 AM on April 3, 2019 [28 favorites]
It really is astonishing but...then one gradually realizes we are all doing this daily when it comes to climate change.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:23 AM on April 3, 2019 [28 favorites]
"First against the sea wall when the revolution comes" just doesn't have the same ring to it.
posted by Sphinx at 9:29 AM on April 3, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by Sphinx at 9:29 AM on April 3, 2019 [9 favorites]
There's a ton of climate-change-related things that should be (or are already) illegal already, but willing enforcement is a pipe dream.
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:44 AM on April 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:44 AM on April 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
Yeah the millionaires and billionaires will eventually own apartments underwater, but they'll recoup the costs in tax cuts, disaster aid, and insurance before they fuck off to the next beachfront property.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 10:00 AM on April 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by Kitty Stardust at 10:00 AM on April 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
Related, there’s no aid available for crop losses due to the Midwest floods
posted by The Whelk at 10:10 AM on April 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 10:10 AM on April 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
I'm already getting preemptively disgusted at the amount of money we'll spend to bail out Miami over the next few decades, while leaving other climate survivors like Puerto Rico (and, apparently, Midwest farmers) to rot.
posted by gurple at 10:31 AM on April 3, 2019 [13 favorites]
posted by gurple at 10:31 AM on April 3, 2019 [13 favorites]
Kitty Stardust is absolutely right: If there is one thing America does, it's bail out _illionaires, lest they see a 1% drop in their net worth, at the expense of the rest of us.
posted by maxwelton at 10:38 AM on April 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by maxwelton at 10:38 AM on April 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
The article hints at it by mentioning how much of the real estate is owned by LLCs, but Miami and Miami Beach real estate are hotspots for laundering dirty money.
posted by peeedro at 10:42 AM on April 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by peeedro at 10:42 AM on April 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
I'm already getting preemptively disgusted at the amount of money we'll spend to bail out Miami over the next few decades,
Not going to happen. There's already only about 12' elevation difference between the sea and Miami's freshwater reservoirs. As that difference closes, the salinity equalizes. And then no amount of money short of Dubai's levels will enable a city like Miami to continue existing.
posted by ocschwar at 10:45 AM on April 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
I was rather agast last year when I read about a mega shopping mall going up in Miami seeking to be the largest in the country.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:45 AM on April 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:45 AM on April 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
Huh. I couldn’t get into the article due to the overly coy business about lying to the real estate agents.
They are in the business of selling real estate and they very much want free advertising. Cut the bullshit, call them up and tell them you’re doing a story on whether West Miami is safe from rising waters. Done. They’ll tell you the exact same things without debasing yourself or them.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:01 AM on April 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
They are in the business of selling real estate and they very much want free advertising. Cut the bullshit, call them up and tell them you’re doing a story on whether West Miami is safe from rising waters. Done. They’ll tell you the exact same things without debasing yourself or them.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:01 AM on April 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
Related, there’s no aid available for crop losses due to the Midwest floods
You'd think the Twitter President of Because I Say So could issue some kind of proclamation like he does about everything else, given the immense powers that the president seems to have currently.
posted by Frowner at 11:03 AM on April 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
You'd think the Twitter President of Because I Say So could issue some kind of proclamation like he does about everything else, given the immense powers that the president seems to have currently.
posted by Frowner at 11:03 AM on April 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Ah. The clogs of Holland.
when the water rises up -
what's your plan for adapting?
just sink into the North Sea?
or close Oosterscheldekering?
you can flood us
you can wet us
but you'll have to answer to
oooooohhhh oh, the clogs of holland
posted by entropone at 11:05 AM on April 3, 2019 [15 favorites]
when the water rises up -
what's your plan for adapting?
just sink into the North Sea?
or close Oosterscheldekering?
you can flood us
you can wet us
but you'll have to answer to
oooooohhhh oh, the clogs of holland
posted by entropone at 11:05 AM on April 3, 2019 [15 favorites]
In a New Yorker article a few years back about Florida real estate after the 2008 crash, a researcher looking into the housing industry said 'If it's too good to be true, Florida wants in.'
That always stuck with me as a very good description of Florida, and this article reaffirms it.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 11:11 AM on April 3, 2019 [13 favorites]
That always stuck with me as a very good description of Florida, and this article reaffirms it.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 11:11 AM on April 3, 2019 [13 favorites]
Metafilter: I'm already getting preemptively disgusted
posted by Occula at 11:16 AM on April 3, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by Occula at 11:16 AM on April 3, 2019 [9 favorites]
It's such a odd sensation of déjà vu for me to read about the coming and inexorable loss of Miami. As a kid, Keith Laumer's The Breaking Earth, a more or less forgettable b-quality read, transfixed me with its description of a Miami as the locale of a (shrunken) population partying on in denial while the world collapsed around them—ending of course with its destruction by sinking as the titular hero escapes in the nick of time. The rest of the book was only so-so, even to a kid willing to read anything, but that section in Miami, man it haunted me.
I was born in Miami, and though the family moved six months later, have been left as a consequence with a wholly un-logical attachment to the idea of the place if not the reality, which of course is why the Laumer book so entranced my imagination. It's beyond passing strange to know one's birthplace will likely cease to exist in any real sense of the term within your own lifetime. On the other hand, that's a rarefied club that will soon be far less exclusive—kinda like Miami itself.
Pretending it will all work out, it's just rearranging the deck chairs as their city sinks around them. Denial is one hell of a drug.
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 11:22 AM on April 3, 2019 [12 favorites]
I was born in Miami, and though the family moved six months later, have been left as a consequence with a wholly un-logical attachment to the idea of the place if not the reality, which of course is why the Laumer book so entranced my imagination. It's beyond passing strange to know one's birthplace will likely cease to exist in any real sense of the term within your own lifetime. On the other hand, that's a rarefied club that will soon be far less exclusive—kinda like Miami itself.
Pretending it will all work out, it's just rearranging the deck chairs as their city sinks around them. Denial is one hell of a drug.
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 11:22 AM on April 3, 2019 [12 favorites]
The article hints at it by mentioning how much of the real estate is owned by LLCs, but Miami and Miami Beach real estate are hotspots for laundering dirty money.
We're going to end up in a situation where we have completely empty waterlogged luxury Towers that are still rated on the books as expensive attractive Investments
posted by The Whelk at 11:23 AM on April 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
We're going to end up in a situation where we have completely empty waterlogged luxury Towers that are still rated on the books as expensive attractive Investments
posted by The Whelk at 11:23 AM on April 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
I am reeling a bit, thinking that the premise of Kim Stanley Robinson's recent book New York 2140 (about life -- and continued real estate development -- in the flooded skyscrapers of Manhattan) may have been...too optimistic?
posted by wenestvedt at 11:32 AM on April 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by wenestvedt at 11:32 AM on April 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
The world is full of impossible cities.
Look at Manhattan. Washington D.C. was built on swamps, and was regularly flooded throughout the 19th century. St. Petersburg. Venice (obviously). The big cities of Africa. The fresh-water situation in Los Angeles. Heck, London, Paris, Tokyo, Shanghai - you would not have predicted the current size, success and carrying capacity of any of these cities if you looked at the data 50 years ago.
The greatness of cities is the human capital they contain, and their potential for emergent adaptation. The answer for Miami may not come from some comprehensive, top-down plan, but could evolve out of thousands of small decisions people make trying to cope with the water problem in their particular area.
posted by Modest House at 12:00 PM on April 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
Look at Manhattan. Washington D.C. was built on swamps, and was regularly flooded throughout the 19th century. St. Petersburg. Venice (obviously). The big cities of Africa. The fresh-water situation in Los Angeles. Heck, London, Paris, Tokyo, Shanghai - you would not have predicted the current size, success and carrying capacity of any of these cities if you looked at the data 50 years ago.
The greatness of cities is the human capital they contain, and their potential for emergent adaptation. The answer for Miami may not come from some comprehensive, top-down plan, but could evolve out of thousands of small decisions people make trying to cope with the water problem in their particular area.
posted by Modest House at 12:00 PM on April 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
No, Washington Is Not Built on a Swamp.
No, D.C. isn’t really built on a swamp.
posted by peeedro at 12:15 PM on April 3, 2019 [10 favorites]
No, D.C. isn’t really built on a swamp.
posted by peeedro at 12:15 PM on April 3, 2019 [10 favorites]
The reservoirs are the real issue, I think. When you get down to it, with enough concrete you can raise all the buildings up, elevate the roads, etc. Build a great big modern-day Venice (although Venice doesn't get hurricanes, as far as I know). I'm suspicious about the cost and who pays and other practical concerns, but at the end of the day that's all accounting—the capability to physically build a city on pilings over shallow water certainly exists. It's stupid, but doable, and probably only requires like 1% of the concrete and rebar that China uses in a year or something.
But there's no point in doing that if there's no water.
The scale of the desalination plants you'd need to keep a city like Miami going would be incredible. And even modern reverse osmosis systems are incredibly energy-intensive.
The biggest desalination plant in the world (located in Saudi Arabia) produces ~228M gallons/day, and has a captive 2,400MW power plant (fossil fuel, naturally) to run it, with excess absorbed by a local aluminum refinery.
Miami-Dade was using 346M gallons/day from shallow-water aquifers that will be subject to saline infiltration back in 2006; at the time they estimated consumption would be up to 450M gal/day by 2025. So consumption trends are up, but even if consumption is held at 2025 levels indefinitely through conservation (which I'm skeptical of, but maybe with enough greywater recycling and use of the, uh, very ample seawater supplies to flush toilets and stuff, it could happen), you're talking about building two of the biggest desalination plants in the world, and probably two new power plants to run them, to keep things going. (And while you're at it you might as well make it three power plants, because Miami's existing nuclear power station isn't going to be easy to just move up a few feet as the water rises.)
I guess that those are tractable problems, in the sense that we know as a civilization how to fix them—the Saudis show that building megacities in places where no rational person would ever propose anyone live is, if not a great idea, at least physically possible—and maybe it'll turn out that repeatedly band-aiding things with mega-engineering projects is more possible than actually doing anything about carbon emissions. I suspect that might be the case.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:19 PM on April 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
But there's no point in doing that if there's no water.
The scale of the desalination plants you'd need to keep a city like Miami going would be incredible. And even modern reverse osmosis systems are incredibly energy-intensive.
The biggest desalination plant in the world (located in Saudi Arabia) produces ~228M gallons/day, and has a captive 2,400MW power plant (fossil fuel, naturally) to run it, with excess absorbed by a local aluminum refinery.
Miami-Dade was using 346M gallons/day from shallow-water aquifers that will be subject to saline infiltration back in 2006; at the time they estimated consumption would be up to 450M gal/day by 2025. So consumption trends are up, but even if consumption is held at 2025 levels indefinitely through conservation (which I'm skeptical of, but maybe with enough greywater recycling and use of the, uh, very ample seawater supplies to flush toilets and stuff, it could happen), you're talking about building two of the biggest desalination plants in the world, and probably two new power plants to run them, to keep things going. (And while you're at it you might as well make it three power plants, because Miami's existing nuclear power station isn't going to be easy to just move up a few feet as the water rises.)
I guess that those are tractable problems, in the sense that we know as a civilization how to fix them—the Saudis show that building megacities in places where no rational person would ever propose anyone live is, if not a great idea, at least physically possible—and maybe it'll turn out that repeatedly band-aiding things with mega-engineering projects is more possible than actually doing anything about carbon emissions. I suspect that might be the case.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:19 PM on April 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
No, Washington Is Not Built on a Swamp.
No, D.C. isn’t really built on a swamp.
Thank you
[/exasperated Washingtonian]
posted by ryanshepard at 12:29 PM on April 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
No, D.C. isn’t really built on a swamp.
Thank you
[/exasperated Washingtonian]
posted by ryanshepard at 12:29 PM on April 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
Okay, I was wrong about the Washington D.C. swamp thing. And there's no question that the salinization of the reservoirs is probably the biggest threat that Miami faces.
But London, Paris, Rome, Lisbon, Tokyo, etc. have all survived dire existential threats ranging from earthquake to war to plague, drought, fire and flood - and while real estate values may have fluctuated wildly over the ages, they all survived, and today, they're the most valuable places on earth.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki absorbed direct hits from nuclear weapons, and were both thriving metropolises again within 20 years. Who would have predicted that in 1947?
Cities are amazing places, and they adapt in ways it is historically difficult to foresee.
posted by Modest House at 12:34 PM on April 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
But London, Paris, Rome, Lisbon, Tokyo, etc. have all survived dire existential threats ranging from earthquake to war to plague, drought, fire and flood - and while real estate values may have fluctuated wildly over the ages, they all survived, and today, they're the most valuable places on earth.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki absorbed direct hits from nuclear weapons, and were both thriving metropolises again within 20 years. Who would have predicted that in 1947?
Cities are amazing places, and they adapt in ways it is historically difficult to foresee.
posted by Modest House at 12:34 PM on April 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
It's just kinda hard to adapt when you're underwater.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 12:39 PM on April 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 12:39 PM on April 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
Exactly, and the Hiroshima bombing, Lisbon earthquake, etc. were one-offs, while this is a disaster that will get worse over decades and last for thousands of years.
posted by kersplunk at 12:41 PM on April 3, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by kersplunk at 12:41 PM on April 3, 2019 [9 favorites]
There are countless cities across history that have simply ceased to exist , sometimes in direct response to an ecological threat.
Saying 'oh they've always existed it so they'll be fine or people will just figure something out" is a form of denialism just as saying there's nothing to be done and we're all doomed is a form of denialism.
posted by The Whelk at 12:41 PM on April 3, 2019 [32 favorites]
Saying 'oh they've always existed it so they'll be fine or people will just figure something out" is a form of denialism just as saying there's nothing to be done and we're all doomed is a form of denialism.
posted by The Whelk at 12:41 PM on April 3, 2019 [32 favorites]
Cities are amazing places, and they adapt in ways it is historically difficult to foresee.
Only if they
you know
Do.
posted by entropone at 12:55 PM on April 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
Only if they
you know
Do.
posted by entropone at 12:55 PM on April 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
There are countless cities across history that have simply ceased to exist , sometimes in direct response to an ecological threat.
IIRC a lot of these were civilizations built on irrigation, so when however many years of redirecting water flows ended up with soil so heavily polluted with whatever that it wouldn’t grow anything...BAM. Collapse.
So sort of man-made climate change in miniature.
And there will be the wars.
posted by schadenfrau at 12:56 PM on April 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
IIRC a lot of these were civilizations built on irrigation, so when however many years of redirecting water flows ended up with soil so heavily polluted with whatever that it wouldn’t grow anything...BAM. Collapse.
So sort of man-made climate change in miniature.
And there will be the wars.
posted by schadenfrau at 12:56 PM on April 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
Hiroshima and Nagasaki absorbed direct hits from nuclear weapons, and were both thriving metropolises again within 20 years
Would you buy real estate in Pripyat?
posted by peeedro at 1:00 PM on April 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
Would you buy real estate in Pripyat?
posted by peeedro at 1:00 PM on April 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
great read, my best friend from high school lives in Miami. I've been there, its beautiful, if not really my thing culturally...but yeah, guys...like, I feel like this confidence is performative? like whistling past a graveyard? like, we are so rich and powerful and beautiful and we just double-dog dare you, climate change, to stop us from living our fabulous lives.
I wonder how that will turn out. I really think my friend should sell her condo while this insane real estate market continues to churn, and get out of there. but she really likes it...
posted by supermedusa at 1:00 PM on April 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
I wonder how that will turn out. I really think my friend should sell her condo while this insane real estate market continues to churn, and get out of there. but she really likes it...
posted by supermedusa at 1:00 PM on April 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
OK, what if you could solve the fresh water supply situation? What is the solution for the sewage disposal going to be? Venice has the notably bad solution of dumping into the canals. I suppose that a series of huge, elevated treatment plants, fed by big pumps, would work. But what if the salt water is pulled into the pipes? Can you run a brackish treatment plant?
posted by Midnight Skulker at 1:12 PM on April 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Midnight Skulker at 1:12 PM on April 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
So is catastrophizing the situation as so many do when they talk about Miami. The denialists are obviously worse than useless and insane, but the people trying to point to Miami as a current victim of significant issues from climate change are doing the opposite, just without the negative externalities of the denialists.
Yes, the city I currently call home will find ever increasing parts of itself rendered unfit for habitation due to increasing water levels. We already have water in the streets in a few areas on perfectly sunny days when the wind and tides are pushing water higher than average. However, we are not yet (and won't be for longer than you probably think) having water supply issues caused by rising sea levels. That bit has an entirely different cause that has fuck all to do with rising sea levels.
Make no mistake, saltwater intrusion is real and is actually happening across South Florida, not only in Miami-Dade County. It happens because we have insisted for decades on withdrawing water from aquifers faster than its replacement rate. 80 years ago if I had drilled a well in my front yard, I'd have gotten fresh water. 60 years ago, I wouldn't have. Over time, areas farther inland also saw the invasion of brackish water. However, an interesting thing happened back in the 80s: We did something about it in most of the county. By moving well fields farther inland and limiting their intake of fresh water by building the capacity to process brackish water in deeper aquifers disconnected from the fresh water system when demand exceeds the rate at which fresh water can be pumped, the intrusion has been stopped, slowed, or even reversed in most of the county.
Yes, some areas will become uneconomic to inhabit in relatively short order, but by no means the entire city, at least in our lifetime and maybe not at all if we get our shit together.
Anyway, what infuriates me to no end is how the relatively minimal issues Miami faces from climate change in the near term suck up all the oxygen and drown out the very real stories of people who are already being displaced by sea level rise and other effects of climate change now, today, last year. Entire places around the world are being eliminated. Ones that don't have the capacity for significant adaptation to keep most people in their homes if they want to stay there like we can here. Let them have some of the attention for a while. They need it a lot more.
posted by wierdo at 1:13 PM on April 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
Yes, the city I currently call home will find ever increasing parts of itself rendered unfit for habitation due to increasing water levels. We already have water in the streets in a few areas on perfectly sunny days when the wind and tides are pushing water higher than average. However, we are not yet (and won't be for longer than you probably think) having water supply issues caused by rising sea levels. That bit has an entirely different cause that has fuck all to do with rising sea levels.
Make no mistake, saltwater intrusion is real and is actually happening across South Florida, not only in Miami-Dade County. It happens because we have insisted for decades on withdrawing water from aquifers faster than its replacement rate. 80 years ago if I had drilled a well in my front yard, I'd have gotten fresh water. 60 years ago, I wouldn't have. Over time, areas farther inland also saw the invasion of brackish water. However, an interesting thing happened back in the 80s: We did something about it in most of the county. By moving well fields farther inland and limiting their intake of fresh water by building the capacity to process brackish water in deeper aquifers disconnected from the fresh water system when demand exceeds the rate at which fresh water can be pumped, the intrusion has been stopped, slowed, or even reversed in most of the county.
Yes, some areas will become uneconomic to inhabit in relatively short order, but by no means the entire city, at least in our lifetime and maybe not at all if we get our shit together.
Anyway, what infuriates me to no end is how the relatively minimal issues Miami faces from climate change in the near term suck up all the oxygen and drown out the very real stories of people who are already being displaced by sea level rise and other effects of climate change now, today, last year. Entire places around the world are being eliminated. Ones that don't have the capacity for significant adaptation to keep most people in their homes if they want to stay there like we can here. Let them have some of the attention for a while. They need it a lot more.
posted by wierdo at 1:13 PM on April 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
I ran out of time to read the complete article, so maybe it was mentioned, but isn't the entire shoreline of Florida insured by the federal government?
You may be thinking of the Florida Hurricane Catastrophe Fund, which is a tax-exempt state trust fund created by the State of Florida after Hurricane Andrew, when property insurers who had suffered enormous losses (probably correctly) realised Florida probably just wasn't worth it and started to hike premiums and considered pulling out of the market completely. Insurers pay in a portion of their premiums, and they can claim money back if the losses from a big event go above a certain threshold).
I can go into the details if you want, but it essentially ends up acting as a subsidy to the Florida property insurance market. Note that insurers also buy insurance of this kind off other insurance companies (reinsurance companies), but reinsurance companies have to turn a profit, pay brokers, give out dividends, etc so insurance companies pay them market rates and it's not really comparable.
IMO (I work in reinsurance) the FHCF has had the effect of allowing insurers to insure much riskier Florida properties, which in turn effectively subsidises people to build in riskier areas because their house insurance becomes cheaper than it should be based on real world stats.
posted by kersplunk at 1:28 PM on April 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
You may be thinking of the Florida Hurricane Catastrophe Fund, which is a tax-exempt state trust fund created by the State of Florida after Hurricane Andrew, when property insurers who had suffered enormous losses (probably correctly) realised Florida probably just wasn't worth it and started to hike premiums and considered pulling out of the market completely. Insurers pay in a portion of their premiums, and they can claim money back if the losses from a big event go above a certain threshold).
I can go into the details if you want, but it essentially ends up acting as a subsidy to the Florida property insurance market. Note that insurers also buy insurance of this kind off other insurance companies (reinsurance companies), but reinsurance companies have to turn a profit, pay brokers, give out dividends, etc so insurance companies pay them market rates and it's not really comparable.
IMO (I work in reinsurance) the FHCF has had the effect of allowing insurers to insure much riskier Florida properties, which in turn effectively subsidises people to build in riskier areas because their house insurance becomes cheaper than it should be based on real world stats.
posted by kersplunk at 1:28 PM on April 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
TL;DR you mightn't be able to afford to insure your Florida beachfront property if the state government wasn't essentially subsidising you to do so.
posted by kersplunk at 1:30 PM on April 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by kersplunk at 1:30 PM on April 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
Okay, I was wrong about the Washington D.C. swamp thing.
We do have some serious sea level rise issues, though, since we sit at the confluence of two tidal rivers. The Navy is talking about building a 1.5 mile long, 14 ft. high sea wall to protect one of its properties here, and our water treatment plant is currently being walled off from the Potomac. Improvements to the 1930s vintage levee system protecting downtown are also underway.
posted by ryanshepard at 1:42 PM on April 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
We do have some serious sea level rise issues, though, since we sit at the confluence of two tidal rivers. The Navy is talking about building a 1.5 mile long, 14 ft. high sea wall to protect one of its properties here, and our water treatment plant is currently being walled off from the Potomac. Improvements to the 1930s vintage levee system protecting downtown are also underway.
posted by ryanshepard at 1:42 PM on April 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Last year, I lived in a place with hundreds and hundreds of Bronze-age monuments and I sort of fell into a rabbit hole about the Bronze Age Collapse. As far as I can see, the research right now isn't quite going there, and I am not an archeologist, but this collapse of civilization didn't only happen in the Mediterranean, and I began thinking that maybe it was a man-made environmental disaster, rather than an earthquake/tsunami/volcanic explosion. Well maybe it was also that.
Hear me out: in a culture where timber is the most important ressource, both for construction and for fuel, what happens when all the forests are cut down? First you can colonize other areas within your reach. Then you can ration timber and control it. But in the end, there just isn't any left. You can't build anymore, but you can use other fuel types, like peat. Then you are literally burning the soil/scorching the earth. I think this is what happened during the Bronze Age. And then there was a gap of hundreds of years before humanity recovered in Europe, North Africa and the Middle East. The deserts are still here. Some researchers do work with this theory: a decade ago, a historian told me that once Persia was covered in oak forests, and I didn't believe him. I should call him and ask for references.
Also, there are the lost cities of the Amazon. What happened to them?
TLDR: Man may have already broken the world for humanity before. It can happen again. Earth will recover and find a new balance, it's ourselves we are killing.
posted by mumimor at 2:05 PM on April 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
Hear me out: in a culture where timber is the most important ressource, both for construction and for fuel, what happens when all the forests are cut down? First you can colonize other areas within your reach. Then you can ration timber and control it. But in the end, there just isn't any left. You can't build anymore, but you can use other fuel types, like peat. Then you are literally burning the soil/scorching the earth. I think this is what happened during the Bronze Age. And then there was a gap of hundreds of years before humanity recovered in Europe, North Africa and the Middle East. The deserts are still here. Some researchers do work with this theory: a decade ago, a historian told me that once Persia was covered in oak forests, and I didn't believe him. I should call him and ask for references.
Also, there are the lost cities of the Amazon. What happened to them?
TLDR: Man may have already broken the world for humanity before. It can happen again. Earth will recover and find a new balance, it's ourselves we are killing.
posted by mumimor at 2:05 PM on April 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
Yup, this was all covered in the classic "Guns, Germs and Steel," which talked about how places like Iraq used to have great civilizations, but then they cut down all the trees and it was too hot for them to grow back.
posted by Melismata at 2:10 PM on April 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 2:10 PM on April 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
Yes, I know it was in GGS, but I thought that was no longer seen as good science?
posted by mumimor at 2:12 PM on April 3, 2019
posted by mumimor at 2:12 PM on April 3, 2019
Yup, this was all covered in the classic "Guns, Germs and Steel," which talked about how places like Iraq used to have great civilizations, but then they cut down all the trees and it was too hot for them to grow back.
I haven't read Guns, Germs, and Steel, but Mesopotamia was still a tremendously important center of commerce and culture up until Baghdad was brutally sacked in 1258 (and again in 1401). The subsequent political divisions in the area and its new status as a borderland between hostile empires is what prevented it from regaining its previous importance, followed by a few centuries of colonialism. I don't think the local supply of timber really enters into it.
posted by Copronymus at 2:43 PM on April 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
I haven't read Guns, Germs, and Steel, but Mesopotamia was still a tremendously important center of commerce and culture up until Baghdad was brutally sacked in 1258 (and again in 1401). The subsequent political divisions in the area and its new status as a borderland between hostile empires is what prevented it from regaining its previous importance, followed by a few centuries of colonialism. I don't think the local supply of timber really enters into it.
posted by Copronymus at 2:43 PM on April 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
I'm a little surprised that 60 comments in, since the article in silent on it, nobody has mentioned any actual scientific predictions of sea level rise. Looks like maybe a meter in next 80 years. Not as bad as I expected, really, though I am one of the more pessimistic people I know on climate change. Don't get me wrong, it's fucking awful, but those real estate agents might be right about it being livable for 50 more years.
posted by exogenous at 4:12 PM on April 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by exogenous at 4:12 PM on April 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Those figures are averaged across the entire globe. If you look past the global average, sea levels are rising more in some locations than others. South Florida has been hit especially hard.
posted by mbrubeck at 4:42 PM on April 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by mbrubeck at 4:42 PM on April 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
Here's a map of how much of Miami is underwater at two, three and four feet of sea level rise, broken down for condo buyers. At a meter, things do not look favorable for selling your Miami Beach condominium.
posted by peeedro at 4:45 PM on April 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by peeedro at 4:45 PM on April 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
Huh. I couldn’t get into the article due to the overly coy business about lying to the real estate agents.
They are in the business of selling real estate and they very much want free advertising. Cut the bullshit, call them up and tell them you’re doing a story on whether West Miami is safe from rising waters. Done. They’ll tell you the exact same things without debasing yourself or them.
I would say that’s a weird hill to die on, except I suppose what we should all be doing now is finding hills to die on.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 6:13 PM on April 3, 2019 [35 favorites]
They are in the business of selling real estate and they very much want free advertising. Cut the bullshit, call them up and tell them you’re doing a story on whether West Miami is safe from rising waters. Done. They’ll tell you the exact same things without debasing yourself or them.
I would say that’s a weird hill to die on, except I suppose what we should all be doing now is finding hills to die on.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 6:13 PM on April 3, 2019 [35 favorites]
There seems to be this strange idea that entire cities will suddenly become uninhabitable due to rising seas. That's not how any of this works. We won't all wake up one morning to discover Miami has suddenly depopulated with a big closed sign in the middle of I-95. I suspect that kind of talk contributes to the denialism to some degree because it is clearly nonsense, though far more based in reality than the denialist position.
Nobody explicitly says that, mind, but it is an impression often given by the way in which people discuss the impact of sea level rise.
What will happen, given the geography, is that storms will become harder and harder to recover from until we give up. That's pretty much it. It won't be a bang, it will be a slow retreat with occasional larger abandonments as people incrementally move to higher ground after each successive storm. Those with the resources to live on the coastal ridge will probably be here for another century or two, maybe longer if they don't mind living on an island.
posted by wierdo at 8:44 PM on April 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
Nobody explicitly says that, mind, but it is an impression often given by the way in which people discuss the impact of sea level rise.
What will happen, given the geography, is that storms will become harder and harder to recover from until we give up. That's pretty much it. It won't be a bang, it will be a slow retreat with occasional larger abandonments as people incrementally move to higher ground after each successive storm. Those with the resources to live on the coastal ridge will probably be here for another century or two, maybe longer if they don't mind living on an island.
posted by wierdo at 8:44 PM on April 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
-Billionaire Miami Beach Developer Dismisses Rising Sea Levels as 'Paranoia'
-Miami Will Be Underwater Soon. Its Drinking Water Could Go First
-Netflix's Our Planet Says What Other Nature Series Have Omitted
posted by kliuless at 11:32 PM on April 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
-Miami Will Be Underwater Soon. Its Drinking Water Could Go First
-Netflix's Our Planet Says What Other Nature Series Have Omitted
posted by kliuless at 11:32 PM on April 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Miami OKs its first legislation to protect from sea level rise (John Charles Robbins, Miami Today)
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:00 AM on April 4, 2019
City officials’ first attempt at new rules with climate change and sustainability is an ordinance allowing new construction and redevelopment to raise habitable structures out of the flood plain with added “freeboard,” up to 5 feet above the Base Flood Elevation.It's a beginning.
The amendment will also allow additional first floor height for ground floor retail establishments so that they may better respond to potential changes to public infrastructure in response to sea level rise.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:00 AM on April 4, 2019
I couldn’t get into the article due to the overly coy business about lying to the real estate agents.
I cannot stop laughing at this.
I mean...they’re real estate agents, and then on top of it they are real estate agents in Miami. Already their job is to lie to you, and then it’s to like...lie to you existentially.
I just...god that is funny. Yes, the poor innocent real estate agents. Those poor babes in the woods. Whatever will they do.
posted by schadenfrau at 10:16 AM on April 4, 2019 [8 favorites]
I cannot stop laughing at this.
I mean...they’re real estate agents, and then on top of it they are real estate agents in Miami. Already their job is to lie to you, and then it’s to like...lie to you existentially.
I just...god that is funny. Yes, the poor innocent real estate agents. Those poor babes in the woods. Whatever will they do.
posted by schadenfrau at 10:16 AM on April 4, 2019 [8 favorites]
I just...god that is funny. Yes, the poor innocent real estate agents. Those poor babes in the woods. Whatever will they do.
I don't know, if life circumstances led me to become a real estate agent to make an living in Miami, would I act much differently than the ones in this article? Do they really believe in the stuff they say about things will be okay, or are they also quietly panicking about their homes in the coming years? Do they have the resources to transition to a different career? We don't know, because we are too busy laughing with the writer about how stupid and ignorant these people are.
I am also not comfortable with this writer's "going undercover" and then write about these working people with mockery and condescension. It feels like punching down. Even though the writer put in a lot of snide comment about how fancy the real estate agents dress, I don't think that necessarily means they are richer than she is since theirs is a very appearance conscious business. . . . Climate change is important to cover but this doesn't feel like good journalism.
posted by Pantalaimon at 11:36 AM on April 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
I don't know, if life circumstances led me to become a real estate agent to make an living in Miami, would I act much differently than the ones in this article? Do they really believe in the stuff they say about things will be okay, or are they also quietly panicking about their homes in the coming years? Do they have the resources to transition to a different career? We don't know, because we are too busy laughing with the writer about how stupid and ignorant these people are.
I am also not comfortable with this writer's "going undercover" and then write about these working people with mockery and condescension. It feels like punching down. Even though the writer put in a lot of snide comment about how fancy the real estate agents dress, I don't think that necessarily means they are richer than she is since theirs is a very appearance conscious business. . . . Climate change is important to cover but this doesn't feel like good journalism.
posted by Pantalaimon at 11:36 AM on April 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
I am also not comfortable with this writer's "going undercover" and then write about these working people with mockery and condescension
It goes further towards explaining why people are still buying condos in Miami by showing what happens if you talk to a realtor and act like you don't know how bad the problem is.
And it's giving me a laugh.
posted by ocschwar at 12:57 PM on April 4, 2019 [4 favorites]
Eh, I wasn't a fan of the framing either, but to say that making fun of real estate agents who are selling homes that will be literally underwater according to the best estimates, but who are prepared to consistently downplay those risks to potential buyers, is "punching down", is…a bit of a stretch.
It would be interesting to know what some of them really feel, when they get off work and take off their Shiny Realtor Persona at the end of the day.
But while they're on the job, they aren't just selling real estate, they are deeply complicit in selling the narrative of climate change denial.
They may just be foot soldiers, but they're on the wrong side of the fucking war.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:02 PM on April 4, 2019 [5 favorites]
It would be interesting to know what some of them really feel, when they get off work and take off their Shiny Realtor Persona at the end of the day.
But while they're on the job, they aren't just selling real estate, they are deeply complicit in selling the narrative of climate change denial.
They may just be foot soldiers, but they're on the wrong side of the fucking war.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:02 PM on April 4, 2019 [5 favorites]
I am also not comfortable with this writer's "going undercover" and then write about these working people with mockery and condescension.Wow, I must be a grade-A jerk, because I LOVED IT. Real estate agents are liars, full stop. Nothing they say is trustworthy, up to and including the asking price, until you see it documented elsewhere. I'm 100% okay with mocking them.
Also, undercover journalism is always going to involve some misrepresentation. I'm okay with that.
But while they're on the job, they aren't just selling real estate, they are deeply complicit in selling the narrative of climate change denial.EXACTLY.
posted by uberchet at 1:33 PM on April 4, 2019 [5 favorites]
> "going undercover" and then write about these working people with mockery and condescension.
We're reading different articles, or at least getting very different glosses from them.
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:32 PM on April 4, 2019 [5 favorites]
We're reading different articles, or at least getting very different glosses from them.
I have to say, I kind of liked this guy. I liked all of them. They were a charming bunch. They had been born this way. That’s how they’d gotten jobs on the front lines of capitalist hypocrisy, while those of us who sucked at lying were hiding in the trenches, smoking cigarettes, writing letters home about how miserable we were. They just said the stuff that we all lived. Who of us behaves as if we were in immediate trouble? We work, and at the end of the day, if we think at all, all we have time to think about is that we are cowards, or, before the thought comes, to escape it. Raise your hand if you have never hoped you will die before you have to thoroughly disrupt your own life for the lives of those who will live after you are dead.Real estate agents lying through their teeth to make a buck are not the big problem with Miami Beach, just like raising the building floor levels isn't close to the answer.
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:32 PM on April 4, 2019 [5 favorites]
Yes, the poor innocent real estate agents. Those poor babes in the woods. Whatever will they do.
You seem to be focusing a lot on the real estate agents and not on the person who decided gratuitous lying was the right approach for an article I’m supposed to trust.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:47 PM on April 4, 2019
You seem to be focusing a lot on the real estate agents and not on the person who decided gratuitous lying was the right approach for an article I’m supposed to trust.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:47 PM on April 4, 2019
You seem to be focusing a lot on the real estate agents and not on the person who decided gratuitous lying was the right approach for an article I’m supposed to trust.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:47 PM on April 4
[+] [!]
Oh come on
posted by schadenfrau at 3:13 PM on April 4, 2019 [13 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:47 PM on April 4
[+] [!]
Oh come on
posted by schadenfrau at 3:13 PM on April 4, 2019 [13 favorites]
sous les paves, la plage
posted by pykrete jungle at 7:54 PM on April 4, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by pykrete jungle at 7:54 PM on April 4, 2019 [5 favorites]
BlackRock analysis helps define climate-change risk - "Study says investors fail to price in effect of extreme weather on portfolios." cf. viz.
Hurricane-force winds and flooding are key risks to commercial real estate. Our analysis of recent hurricanes hitting Houston and Miami finds that roughly 80% of commercial properties tied to affected CMBS loans lay outside official flood zones — meaning they may lack insurance coverage. This makes it critical to analyze climate-related risks on a local level.posted by kliuless at 11:26 PM on April 4, 2019
>> Tell Me No Lies
>
> Oh come on
>
Honesty is important to me.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:40 AM on April 5, 2019
>
> Oh come on
>
Honesty is important to me.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:40 AM on April 5, 2019
Don’t tell me that.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:32 AM on April 5, 2019
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:32 AM on April 5, 2019
Nothing's free in Waterworld.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:10 AM on April 5, 2019
posted by octobersurprise at 11:10 AM on April 5, 2019
...the person who decided gratuitous lying was the right approach for an article I’m supposed to trust.
I can't argue with discomfort with lying, but I don't think this story would have gotten anywhere without the reporter posing as a real customer. Even if she hadn't outright lied about her position and intentions, she would have had to create an impression of normal-real-estate-customerhood somehow. And anything she did or did not do to support and allow that impression would be a deliberate deception.
I don't think it's fair to call the lies "gratuitous" in this case.
Maybe it's just a lack of imagination on my part, but I can't think of a way to get this story without some level of deception. All undercover work is like this, isn't it? Intelligence work, police work, journalism?
posted by Western Infidels at 8:49 AM on April 7, 2019 [1 favorite]
I can't argue with discomfort with lying, but I don't think this story would have gotten anywhere without the reporter posing as a real customer. Even if she hadn't outright lied about her position and intentions, she would have had to create an impression of normal-real-estate-customerhood somehow. And anything she did or did not do to support and allow that impression would be a deliberate deception.
I don't think it's fair to call the lies "gratuitous" in this case.
Maybe it's just a lack of imagination on my part, but I can't think of a way to get this story without some level of deception. All undercover work is like this, isn't it? Intelligence work, police work, journalism?
posted by Western Infidels at 8:49 AM on April 7, 2019 [1 favorite]
Honesty is important to me.
That’s what makes it so strange that you’re defending luxury real estate brokers — who...you don’t seem to know what they actually do for a living? Particularly the ones in Miami? — from the evils of investigative reporting.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:47 AM on April 7, 2019 [5 favorites]
That’s what makes it so strange that you’re defending luxury real estate brokers — who...you don’t seem to know what they actually do for a living? Particularly the ones in Miami? — from the evils of investigative reporting.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:47 AM on April 7, 2019 [5 favorites]
I can't argue with discomfort with lying, but I don't think this story would have gotten anywhere without the reporter posing as a real customer.
Yeah, we disagree on that. If I believed that the realtor would have given a different story to a reporter who called up and asked then I would agree some undercover work was required. But to me it seems blatantly obvious that a real estate agent is going to want to advertise both themselves as individuals and the story that the properties they represent are safe, safe, safe.
So to me the undercover business seemed gratuitous. I totally understand differing opinions though.
That’s what makes it so strange that you’re defending luxury real estate brokers — who...you don’t seem to know what they actually do for a living? Particularly the ones in Miami? — from the evils of investigative reporting.
Well, two things
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:36 PM on April 7, 2019
Yeah, we disagree on that. If I believed that the realtor would have given a different story to a reporter who called up and asked then I would agree some undercover work was required. But to me it seems blatantly obvious that a real estate agent is going to want to advertise both themselves as individuals and the story that the properties they represent are safe, safe, safe.
So to me the undercover business seemed gratuitous. I totally understand differing opinions though.
That’s what makes it so strange that you’re defending luxury real estate brokers — who...you don’t seem to know what they actually do for a living? Particularly the ones in Miami? — from the evils of investigative reporting.
Well, two things
- The reason I was put off by the article was that the author kicked it off by highlighting her dishonesty. It does not matter to me who she was dishonest to because
- In my worldview, people being bad does not free you up to behave as badly as you feel like. It may require extraordinary measures of lying, cheating, and stealing to deal with badness but I don’t respect doing any of those just for the thrill.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:36 PM on April 7, 2019
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posted by gwint at 8:24 AM on April 3, 2019 [1 favorite]