“Do you want to know how I got these scars?”

April 3, 2019 9:50 AM

Joker [YouTube][Teaser Trailer] “The first teaser for Todd Phillips’ upcoming standalone Joker movie brings Joaquin Phoenix’s take on the iconic villain to life. Unlike previous iterations of the Joker, this movie carves out an origin story for the character — the Joker before he was the Joker, exploring the life of Arthur Fleck as he descends from small-time stand up comedian to the clown prince of crime. The movie is said to lean hard on Martin Scorsese influences, particularly the director’s 1982 dark comedy The King of Comedy.” [via: Polygon]
posted by Fizz (98 comments total)

This is some end-stage oversaturation of comic book character movies bullshit. "Where did the Joker come from?" is literally the least interesting thing about the character. This is a problem-in-search-of-a-solution movie. Please, just, no more origin stories!
posted by tocts at 9:57 AM on April 3, 2019 [51 favorites]

I was skeptical, but after the trailer, this movie.....has my attention.
posted by Paladin1138 at 9:57 AM on April 3, 2019 [15 favorites]

Joker: “Do you want to know how I got these scars?”

No.
posted by Fizz at 9:59 AM on April 3, 2019 [30 favorites]

So the Jared Leto for Joaquin Phoenix swap was by accident because someone thought they're the same person, right?
posted by grandiloquiet at 9:59 AM on April 3, 2019 [13 favorites]

They should just remake Wake in Fright only instead of fistfighting a kangaroo he becomes the Joker.

No, wait no he can still fistfight the kangroo. But also Batman after that.
posted by Phobos the Space Potato at 10:01 AM on April 3, 2019 [7 favorites]

Please, just, no more origin stories!

OK, but I want a King Tut movie first.
posted by thelonius at 10:04 AM on April 3, 2019 [9 favorites]

This has a great look to it and the trailer was intriguing but I'm not sure that I trust the director of the Hangover movies to pull this off.
posted by octothorpe at 10:05 AM on April 3, 2019

OK, but I want a King Tut movie first.

SETH ROGEN IS THE TUT
posted by Roentgen at 10:08 AM on April 3, 2019 [9 favorites]

The movie is said to lean hard on Martin Scorsese influences, particularly the director’s 1982 dark comedy The King of Comedy.”

Highly recommend this movie to anyone who hasn’t seen it, it’s incredible.
posted by sallybrown at 10:14 AM on April 3, 2019 [11 favorites]

I had some misgivings about Todd Phillips directing this picture but his early documentaries about GG Allin and the other one about college hazing rituals has me curious now. His attraction to the dark side of human nature might actually make him the right guy for the job.
posted by cazoo at 10:17 AM on April 3, 2019 [3 favorites]

Please, just, no more origin stories!

OK, but I want a King Tut yt movie first.

I think we have his origin story pretty well covered -- born in Arizona, moved to Babylonia, etc.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:36 AM on April 3, 2019 [41 favorites]

His attraction to the dark side of human nature might actually make him the right guy for the job.
Yeah I think you’re right about that. He’s not a standard comedy director.
posted by Liquidwolf at 10:38 AM on April 3, 2019

So the Jared Leto for Joaquin Phoenix swap was by accident because someone thought they're the same person, right?

Heath Ledger was the Jared Leto of Joaquin Phoenixes, so it makes sense.
posted by rhizome at 10:39 AM on April 3, 2019 [41 favorites]

1. Wow, this looks surprisingly good and unsettling!
2. (Kinktomato but) oh god I'm going to be hiding from Sexy Joker thirst traps for years, YEARS
3. OK as long as I'm kinkshaming, at least Sexy Joaquin Joker >>>> Sexy Jared Leto Joker. Unless Joaquin Joker involves Brian Azarello's grimdark rapist Joker in any way/shape/form.
4. Why the fuck is there an ostensible love interest character in this trailer. MOLLY, YOU'RE IN DANGER, GIRL
posted by nicebookrack at 10:40 AM on April 3, 2019 [3 favorites]

Why the fuck is there an ostensible love interest character in this trailer. YOU IN DANGER, GIRL

I guess we should be grateful the female love-interest/mother figure in this film has not just been insta-fridged the way Nolan loves to do in his films. /ugh
posted by Fizz at 10:44 AM on April 3, 2019

"Where did the Joker come from?" is literally the least interesting thing about the character.

There will be a framing sequence where it is made clear that this movie is all from the Joker's point of view, and even he doesn't know whether it's true, a convenient explanation that helps some other scheme he's hatching, or just a story he's telling to freak someone out while waiting in line at Quizno's.

That framing sequence may only be in my head, but it'll still be there.
posted by Etrigan at 10:51 AM on April 3, 2019 [22 favorites]

Please, movies, just give me a Joker who would squirt people with a gag boutonniere that may or may not be full of acid (that's the joke!), and then participate in a surf tournament with Batman. I'm begging you here.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:58 AM on April 3, 2019 [20 favorites]

Probability of annoying cosplay based on this movie is high.
posted by Artw at 11:05 AM on April 3, 2019 [6 favorites]

We’ve had like 17 movie jokers and still no Clock King or Kite Man.
posted by rodlymight at 11:09 AM on April 3, 2019 [9 favorites]

We've come such a long way from when comic book villains got their origin stories and final deaths in the same movie. Thank god Hollywood is finally recognizing the true potential of these iconic characters to become revenue streams that flow in perpetuity forever.

I'll see this though, I like Joaquin Phoenix
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:10 AM on April 3, 2019

I'm absolutely here for Joaquin Phoenix's performance as an actor and an artist, but I sincerely never actually wanted to know where the Joker came from, am confused by the premise that he had a "before" state or came from anywhere at all, and will probably tune most of the plot out in favor of watching the performance (and an excuse to binge on popcorn while I do so). The Joker is a manifested response to the hypocritical, corrupt version of humanity and society in the universe he comes from, he doesn't need to be an actual person you guys. Sometimes it's ok for metaphors to stay metaphors.
posted by Snacks at 11:16 AM on April 3, 2019 [7 favorites]

Please, just, no more origin stories!
Why so serious?
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:17 AM on April 3, 2019 [11 favorites]

This could be a good and interesting movie. If so, it's going to be in spite of being related to the DC character.

On the other hand, it almost seems like it could be an origin story for one of the homeless characters in The Fisher King. If it plays out like that (if a little more overtly somber), this might be as close as I ever get to something like the "Terry Gilliam's BATMAN" fantasy I've had bubbling in my head for years.
posted by es_de_bah at 11:22 AM on April 3, 2019 [7 favorites]

Drew Magary: "In theory, I am the ideal target audience for this new Joker trailer because I am the kind of broad-minded jackass who would shell out $12 for anything Joker-related, and because I’m one of five people who won’t openly recoil at the idea of a gritty PG-13 Joker origin story shot exclusively as an homage to old Scorsese movies."
posted by box at 11:23 AM on April 3, 2019 [13 favorites]

This looks like an interesting comic book movie at least, but I'm just so done with the entire genre. I hate how comic book movies have just sucked all the oxygen out of the room so there's no space for original sci fi, fantasy or action.

I just want to see an original story that hasn't been done to death. I want to not know how the movie ends before it even starts because we've been told the same stories since we were children. I want people to stop seeing these so they can begin to fail so we can finally get some original entertainment that wasn't based on books written for pre teens.

I've come to resent the people who just perpetually want their childhoods regurgitated to them endlessly. It's boring and it's dumb and it needs to stop.

I may or may not have gotten enough sleep last night.
posted by mikesch at 11:24 AM on April 3, 2019 [18 favorites]

All I can think to say about this is that if I lived in an alternate universe where there was no such thing as DC comics I would absolutely want to see this movie based off the trailer and the strength of Joaquin Phoenix alone. Who is this guy? Why is he ... is he turning into a legit bad clown? What in the world?

ALSO I'm currently pretending this a Sliding Doors-type sister film to You Were Never Really Here. Doesn't seem to matter what split the timelines, he still ends up as a disturbed single man (living with his old mother) who goes out and does Bad Things.
posted by komara at 11:31 AM on April 3, 2019 [9 favorites]

Also, if DC Films really wants to make money, they have another Joker movie with a different star, different director, different everything that is also an origin story lined up to open in the same weekend in 2020. Fuck, make it a romcom that introduces Dr. Harleen Quinzel in the third act. And then a Joker '66 origin for 2021.

"If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"
posted by Etrigan at 11:40 AM on April 3, 2019 [21 favorites]

All I can think to say about this is that if I lived in an alternate universe where there was no such thing as DC comics I would absolutely want to see this movie based off the trailer and the strength of Joaquin Phoenix alone.

That's definitely where I'm at after watching this. The well-known character known as The Joker might not need an origin story, but the life of whoever this guy is was interesting me all on its own. The only point at which my attention was broken was when a character mentions Gotham, and I was wrenched out for a second as I was forced to remember that this is a DC thing. Along those lines, I'm pretty tired of superhero movies, but intrigued to where this is going as a film in general.

I'm also pretty happy with the visual styling update they made. Clearly related to the classic outfits, but not so much modernised as sidestepped into something equally viable.
posted by Palindromedary at 11:55 AM on April 3, 2019 [1 favorite]

I feel pretty safe in saying that this will be a better movie than Suicide Squad.
posted by octothorpe at 11:56 AM on April 3, 2019 [6 favorites]

Mirror. MIRROR!!
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 12:12 PM on April 3, 2019 [2 favorites]

I sorta lost the Joaquin Phoenix plot after he torpedoed himself in all the drama around the flop film I'm Still Here. Did he come through rehab and is OK again or something? He seemed just fine in Her (2013), so maybe so. OTOH he's also doing Woody Allen movies.

The mythology of the man's death has overshadowed the movie, but Heath Ledger's version of the Joker really was pretty fucking amazing.
posted by Nelson at 12:19 PM on April 3, 2019 [1 favorite]

For a second there I was confusing Todd Phillips with Todd (Welcome To The Dollhouse) Solondz and was thinking, hmmm now that's an interesting directorial choice. Now after watching the trailer, I'd rather see Solondz' take on the Joker.
posted by hoodrich at 12:20 PM on April 3, 2019 [9 favorites]

Hang on. Heath Ledger. Then, Jared Leto. And now, Joaquin Phoenix. Are they... are they just running down the list of overly intense method actors to play the Joker? Does this mean we're eventually gonna get an Old Man Logan-esque Joker starring Daniel Day Lewis in 2024 or what?
posted by mhum at 12:28 PM on April 3, 2019 [8 favorites]

I do not for one second believe that The Joker is a guy who wanted to be a clown and make people happy. The whole premise is trite and wrong. It's the same thing they did with Darth Vader: they took a great cinematic villain and carefully explained all the mysteriousness out of him, and made him into a cute tousle-haired kid who just needed a hug. The Joker's only superpower is that he's so crazy he's like the avatar of craziness; he's an inky well of psychopathy that you can't see to the bottom of. Dear moviemakers, please stop explaining things that are better left unexplained, thanks.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 12:29 PM on April 3, 2019 [29 favorites]

I sorta lost the Joaquin Phoenix plot after he torpedoed himself in all the drama around the flop film I'm Still Here. Did he come through rehab and is OK again or something? He seemed just fine in Her (2013), so maybe so. OTOH he's also doing Woody Allen movies.

He was in Gus Van Sant's recent bio-pic about cartoonist John Callahan, Don't Worry, He Won't Get Far on Foot. It was quite good. I am sad to hear there he's choosing to work with Woody Allen though. Blech.
posted by Fizz at 12:36 PM on April 3, 2019

I do not for one second believe that The Joker is a guy who wanted to be a clown and make people happy.

Especially since The Killing Joke, which is the start of this angle on the Joker, for all its flaws, is not about the Joker’s origin, but his excuses. The Joker’s thesis, that anyone could be as shitty as he with the right pressures, is shown to be wrong.
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:40 PM on April 3, 2019 [19 favorites]

"This is some end-stage oversaturation of comic book character movies bullshit. "Where did the Joker come from?" is literally the least interesting thing about the character. This is a problem-in-search-of-a-solution movie. Please, just, no more origin stories!"

I really empathize with you, which is annoying because the trailer makes it seem like a well-crafted movie. Regardless, superhero origins are the worst (especially movies, has there ever been a good origin story movie??), and Joker in particular has strength in the ambiguity of his origins. Any attempt to canon-ize a backstory only serves to weaken the character.

And even though the trailer made the movie look competent, if it's not going to be better than The Killing Joke, why bother?
posted by GoblinHoney at 12:42 PM on April 3, 2019

I very rarely draw comic book characters, but I did draw The Joker last year, and even gave him a real clown's nose.

It's nasty, like the character, and as others have said above, please don't explain him.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 12:42 PM on April 3, 2019 [2 favorites]

Aw, the trailer gives me a 1970s NYC vibe.
posted by doctornemo at 12:44 PM on April 3, 2019

Huh, wasn't expecting the hate for this one. I'm not into comic book movies but this looks fascinating, compelling, well-acted, and beautifully shot to me. I 'm also really fascinated by the Joker's origin story/stories. Part of the pathos and draw of his character, for me, is that he appears to be a kind abstract avatar of chaos, evil, and sadism but he wasn't always. How did it happen? The first origin story I got exposed to was in the Arkham Origins (I think) video game where you play him in a dream-like and abbreviated life journey from stand up comic to the Joker that we know. That -- and the scene where Batman rescues him from a fall and he marvels that someone would just...do that -- has haunted me ever since and left me wanting for more. I dunno, maybe it's the comic book movie for people who don't like comic book movies?
posted by treepour at 1:01 PM on April 3, 2019 [8 favorites]

Especially since The Killing Joke, which is the start of this angle on the Joker, for all its flaws, is not about the Joker’s origin, but his excuses. The Joker’s thesis, that anyone could be as shitty as he with the right pressures, is shown to be wrong.

Yes! Thank you! And there's even a blink-and-you'll-miss-it line when the Joker admits that there is no definitive version of his origin, even for him, which presages the bits in The Dark Knight. Especially with there being another version of the Joker in the DCEU right now, I have no idea why anyone thinks that this will "canonize" a particular origin. And, of course, you always have the option of, you know, simply not seeing the movie. (I haven't seen Edgelord Joker since I skipped Suicide Squad, and am sincerely hoping that James Gunn doesn't use him in his Squad movie.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:09 PM on April 3, 2019 [5 favorites]

Hang on. Heath Ledger. Then, Jared Leto. And now, Joaquin Phoenix. Are they... are they just running down the list of overly intense method actors to play the Joker?

Man, you totally forgot Jack Nicholson.
posted by Autumnheart at 1:20 PM on April 3, 2019 [16 favorites]

There are a couple of iterations on the Joker that I find interesting.

In Grant Morrison's Arkham Asylum, the Joker has a neurological disorder that continually disrupts his sense of identity. He re-invents himself every day, trying to piece together a sense of self from whatever odds and ends he finds rattling around in his head that morning. Sometimes a trickster, sometimes a gangster, sometimes a sicko that howls at the moon. There is no origin "story" for this Joker; he's an anthology.

Another take was from the series Gotham. In season two they introduced a character, Jerome, who was in every way an embryonic Joker: sans make-up, but a grinning violent sociopath. And, having established the character, they threw the punchline: they killed him. And yet "the Joker" survived as a meme, painted on walls and adopted by edgelords and punks, opening the way for a parade of Jokers with any number of origins and purposes. In some ways, this is the most disturbing version of the Joker I can think of, since he's the malignancy of social media given digital flesh.
posted by SPrintF at 1:22 PM on April 3, 2019 [34 favorites]

Heard joke once: Man goes to doctor. Says he's depressed. Says life seems harsh and cruel. Says he feels all alone in a threatening world where what lies ahead is vague and uncertain. Doctor says, "Treatment is simple. Great clown Pagliacci is in town tonight. Go and see him. He will murder you and your family and your friends and your pets. Problem solved." Man bursts into tears. Says, "But doctor... I am Pagliacci."

Then he murders the doctor.

Good joke.

Everybody laugh.
posted by kyrademon at 1:24 PM on April 3, 2019 [12 favorites]

Are they... are they just running down the list of overly intense method actors to play the Joker?

Man, you totally forgot Jack Nicholson.

It doesn't count as "method" if you just play yourself with different names for three decades.
posted by Etrigan at 1:25 PM on April 3, 2019 [8 favorites]

Has adult swim done "pointless series of origin stories destroying narrative" yet? It's a pretty straightforward idea, think "too many cooks" but nothing but recursive flashbacks interrupting and ruining everything. I'd watch it.
posted by idiopath at 1:27 PM on April 3, 2019 [3 favorites]

And yet "the Joker" survived as a meme

I especially liked Lori Petty’s Jeri, who, despite being scary and sketchy, gives Bruce Wayne some solid advice. Like, “eh, I might try to kill you another day, but right now you’re kid who asked a question, so here’s what I think...”

We needed a lot more Jeri.
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:30 PM on April 3, 2019 [1 favorite]

We've already had the definitive origin story for the Joker:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAqBcJcs1nQ&feature=youtu.be&t=1497

#NotMyJoker
posted by Balna Watya at 1:40 PM on April 3, 2019

This actually might be good against all odds. It really does look like a remake of The King of Comedy but that was a good movie so what the hell? Give it a shot.
posted by East14thTaco at 1:48 PM on April 3, 2019

instead of fistfighting a kangaroo

OK, I read that wrong the first time.
posted by klanawa at 1:50 PM on April 3, 2019 [7 favorites]

oh shit East14thTaco this is where we're headed isn't it? remakes of classic movies reimagined into the continuity of the MCU/DCU/etc
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:59 PM on April 3, 2019 [1 favorite]

You know what- I thought this was a terrible idea, but the trailer kind of sold me on it too.


Vesti la giubba!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:04 PM on April 3, 2019 [1 favorite]

This is some end-stage oversaturation of comic book character movies bullshit. "Where did the Joker come from?" is literally the least interesting thing about the character. This is a problem-in-search-of-a-solution movie. Please, just, no more origin stories!

I cant tell if this is satire.

Huh, wasn't expecting the hate for this one. I'm not into comic book movies but this looks fascinating, compelling, well-acted, and beautifully shot to me.

I used to be a big comics fan, and comics movie fan, but I haven't seen a comic book movie in many years (except for Black Panther) because they all look the same and not interesting. I haven't even seen The Dark Knight Rises still because of burnout (the DVD is sitting on the shelf).

This trailer will probably get me to go to the theater.
posted by bongo_x at 2:09 PM on April 3, 2019 [1 favorite]

I especially liked Lori Petty’s Jeri

I did too. I really wish we'd gotten more of her - a season, half a season, whatever. More than one episode. I like the Joker-as-meme idea that Gotham has been playing with a lot. I really, really do not like anyone giving the Joker an origin story because part of the point is that he came out of nowhere and there's nothing that reasonably explains his skillset. The trailer looks interesting, but some things are better left to the dark recesses of the imagination.

I also like the underlying commentary around the Joker that Bruce Wayne is such a sad goth that his worst and most terrifying enemy is a clown who wants him to loosen up.
posted by bile and syntax at 2:13 PM on April 3, 2019 [11 favorites]

Man goes to doctor, says "I used to be a big comics fan, and comics movie fan, but I haven't seen a comic book movie in many years because they all look the same and not interesting."

Doctor says, "Treatment is simple. Great movie Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse is in theaters. Go and see it."
posted by komara at 2:14 PM on April 3, 2019 [23 favorites]

My favorite take on the Joker's origin is in Neil Gaiman's Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader. In this story, Bruce Wayne is a self-absorbed manchild, obsessed with fighting the street crime that took his parents by assuming the role of a costumed vigilante. His faithful butler, Alfred Pennyworth, realizes that this course of action will swiftly lead to Bruce lying dead in a gutter, so he enlists some old theater friends to assume the roles of gaudy supervillains, each with an absurd gimmick--penguins, cats, riddles--so that his employer may play out his fantasies with minimal danger. This works for a while, but Bruce starts to slip back into self-destructive depression, and Alfred realizes that what he needs is a Moriarty, a White Whale, an archenemy who knows him as well as he knows himself. So dear, kind, loving, long-suffering Alfred gets out some greasepaint, and some lipstick, and a green wig...
posted by Faint of Butt at 2:25 PM on April 3, 2019 [33 favorites]

Sam Adams: if the Joker's mother also turns out to be named Martha I will stand up in the theater and applaud
posted by octothorpe at 2:29 PM on April 3, 2019 [19 favorites]

Man goes to doctor, says "I used to be a big comics fan, and comics movie fan, but I haven't seen a comic book movie in many years because they all look the same and not interesting."

Doctor says, "Treatment is simple. Great movie Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse is in theaters. Go and see it."

Man bursts into tears, says, "But doctor, I am Takuya Yamashiro."
posted by Etrigan at 2:44 PM on April 3, 2019 [15 favorites]

My take is pretty much 50/50 “huh that’s a werid direction to go in” and “this has the potential to be black panther but for incels.”
posted by The Whelk at 2:53 PM on April 3, 2019 [9 favorites]

I thought "some men just want to watch the world burn" was a perfectly good origin story for The Joker.

Asked about reinventing Captain Jack Sparrow, Johnny Depp said, "Bugs Bunny never changed, and it never stopped working."
posted by musofire at 3:20 PM on April 3, 2019

Asked about reinventing Captain Jack Sparrow, Johnny Depp said, "Bugs Bunny never changed, and it never stopped working."

Ten different people have voiced Bugs Bunny in official Warner Bros. productions.
posted by Etrigan at 3:28 PM on April 3, 2019

Grimdark Joker origin story is the movie we knew we didn't need.
posted by kandinski at 3:49 PM on April 3, 2019 [3 favorites]

Hear me out: a live-action/animated Batman movie where the Batman is played completely straight by Ben Affleck and the Joker is Bugs Bunny

the film must carry an 'R' rating
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:17 PM on April 3, 2019 [15 favorites]

oh shit East14thTaco this is where we're headed isn't it? remakes of classic movies reimagined into the continuity of the MCU/DCU/etc

I'm... I'm not really sure how to say this...
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:21 PM on April 3, 2019 [2 favorites]

CNTRL+F "mental illness" = 0
In that case, this worries me a lot! Both in terms of I don't trust the director of Old School and The Hangover movies to maybe be the person to create a truly nuanced portrayal of a severely mentally ill person, and also because. Man, where do I start. I don't doubt it could be a good movie. Phoenix is a good actor. It's just...............can we not. On so many levels of ableism this is potentially a bomb waiting to go off (the additional bomb of white unstable dude becomes mass murderer, do we need a movie about that at this time?) but it's the same shit and same tropes there always is, so.
posted by colorblock sock at 4:46 PM on April 3, 2019 [3 favorites]

I hope that one day somebody does a movie explaining the origins of the alien from Alien. Because when I'm watching those movies I'm like, hey, what's their motivation? Also, The Great Old Ones - what's up with those guys anyway? Finally, fuck movies.
posted by turbid dahlia at 5:17 PM on April 3, 2019 [10 favorites]

Funny (HA!) how this is inspired by King of Comedy and also literally has Robert De Niro in it, I just noticed for a split-second in the trailer and then confirmed at the IMDB page.

The gist I am getting from this is...kind of icky, as it sort of seems custom-built for 8channers, but I will watch it for Phoenix.
posted by turbid dahlia at 5:27 PM on April 3, 2019

I feel like this movie thinks my name is Harleen Quinzel and it's trying to gaslight me into believing I should have some sympathy for the Joker.

Fuck that guy.
posted by straight at 5:31 PM on April 3, 2019 [8 favorites]

Are they... are they just running down the list of overly intense method actors to play the Joker?

"These clowns need an enema!"
posted by turbid dahlia at 5:40 PM on April 3, 2019 [3 favorites]

Thought 1 - 2:24 is a "teaser" trailer now?
Thought 2 - it's kinda funny that there's a Joker movie coming with no one currently playing batman
posted by flaterik at 5:42 PM on April 3, 2019 [1 favorite]

I cant tell if this is satire.

It isn't satire. I think it's been covered already pretty well, so I'll just suffice to say, I don't think there's much interesting to mine from the question, "how did the Joker get to be the Joker?". Joaquin Phoenix may end up giving a good performance, but I have major reservations about it being in the service of a story worth telling (and in fact, I have a sinking feeling it'll end up being a story we'd rather they didn't tell).
posted by tocts at 5:54 PM on April 3, 2019 [1 favorite]

I feel like this shouldn't have to be stated explicitly and I am a pedant for pointing it out but:

The Joker is not a clown who turned to crime. He is a person, maybe a criminal, who for one reason or the other ended up crazy and looking like a clown. Like that's his whole deal. If you misunderstand that you don't get anything about the character.

It's like "reinventing" Spider-man as an entomologist who always wanted to be a superhero.

Actually I think they did do that once but still...
posted by iamnotangry at 7:42 PM on April 3, 2019 [7 favorites]

I admit I started in the "Good Lord not another comic book origin story" camp. Then I read up above about when you divorce it from context it becomes "Troubled man turns into a literal evil clown."

Well, that's probably worth a watch.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 7:50 PM on April 3, 2019 [4 favorites]

All I can think to say about this is that if I lived in an alternate universe where there was no such thing as DC comics I would absolutely want to see this movie based off the trailer and the strength of Joaquin Phoenix alone. Who is this guy? Why is he ... is he turning into a legit bad clown? What in the world?


Falling Clown.
posted by Pickman's Next Top Model at 8:02 PM on April 3, 2019 [8 favorites]

Aw, the trailer gives me a 1970s NYC vibe.

The way they color graded it makes it feel me feel like I'm 8 years old, sitting on a worn old shag carpet with a hideous pattern and watching a TV that's built into a wooden cabinet. And everything smells like cigarettes.
posted by fshgrl at 9:19 PM on April 3, 2019 [10 favorites]

[H]as there ever been a good origin story movie?

A few leap to mind:

Superman: The Movie (1978)
X-Men (2000)
Iron Man (2008)
posted by New Frontier at 9:25 PM on April 3, 2019 [1 favorite]

I'm also not into this as an origin story, but it looks like it's gonna be fuckin' weird.
posted by rhizome at 9:26 PM on April 3, 2019

Unbreakable is a great origin story!
posted by rhizome at 9:26 PM on April 3, 2019 [4 favorites]

God bless JP for giving us this divisive movie. Like Shakespeare made a lot of proper hay out of "foreign lovers get nasty and kill each other," so too, I have faith that JP will create a weird and great and much needed art movie out of the only comics character that is always box-office bankable AND only played by proper genius actors excepting that weird fucker*.

I mean, if he doesn't...That's on him.

*Jared Leto is a portrait in Darren Aronofsky's attic. I don't know who's getting uglier.
posted by es_de_bah at 10:22 PM on April 3, 2019 [1 favorite]

>There will be a framing sequence where it is made clear that this movie is all from the Joker's point of view, and even he doesn't know whether it's true, a convenient explanation that helps some other scheme he's hatching, or just a story he's telling to freak someone out while waiting in line at Quizno's.

That framing sequence may only be in my head, but it'll still be there.

It should have the same framing story as The Usual Suspects and the same ending.
posted by rifflesby at 10:28 PM on April 3, 2019

I sorta lost the Joaquin Phoenix plot after he torpedoed himself in all the drama around the flop film I'm Still Here. Did he come through rehab and is OK again or something?

this is way back in the thread, but just for the record I'm Still Here was entirely a performance, from start to finish, all the weird erratic public behavior and batshit Letterman interviews, everything. it's a really crazy movie knowing that, the dude was willing to throw his career in the gutter for this gonzo mockumentary. it doesn't really hold up now that we know how awful casey affleck is, unfortunately. i hope joaquin just didn't know, but it's impossible to say.

i think joaquin phoenix is maybe our most gifted living actor. both of his collaborations with paul thomas anderson are magnetic. i am excited for this movie because of him. todd phillips, i don't know. but i trust joaquin enough to know that even if this movie fails, it will be a fascinating and compelling failure.
posted by JimBennett at 11:02 PM on April 3, 2019 [3 favorites]

I was put off by the trailer because I was unable to suspend my awareness that this is a white story about a white man whose bad acts are excused (or at least explained). There is no equivalent black story. Black people, who actually suffer oppression in real life, are never excused from complying with society's rules. White people get beat up once (or laughed at, truly the worst thing that can happen to a person n'est ce pas) and it's like ANARCHY ON, MY EGO ASSERTS ITSELF FOR REASONS WE FIND UNDERSTANDABLE, IT'S TSK TSK TIME MY DUDES. When white people engage in violence or antisocial conduct, it's so interesting and we must understand it and they are antiheroes. The same movie starring black people doesn't exist and can't exist. I'm sick of white male antiheroes. We're in the middle of a long cultural moment that is all about excusing, fetishizing, and normalizing white male violence and white male destructiveness and I am not down for another movie in which we explore just what special circumstances allow a white man to fully feel his oats and get down to hurting other people. It's a fucking fantasy in which white men get to put down the burden of doing right by others and it's damaging and ugly and awful. I am weirdly remembering a friend of mine telling me that she didn't like Girls because the main character wasn't pretty enough to be the star of a TV show. The standard for a white man to be the star of any story is zero. You can be ugly, you can be awful, you can be a murderclown. You can be the president. I'm tired. These are not the stories I need.

I am not explaining myself well because I am currently deep into a bad all nighter on an annoying project but you get it.
posted by prefpara at 12:48 AM on April 4, 2019 [22 favorites]

Like, art provides an escape and I don't like how much of our art is providing white men with an escape from having to at least try to be good even in the face of adversity.

Or those creepy movies where a man's family is killed so he can finally shrug off the burden of morality and social order and give total way to his deep and impliedly universal bloodthirst.

(still not done fml)
posted by prefpara at 2:06 AM on April 4, 2019 [7 favorites]

Heard joke once: Man goes to doctor. Says he's depressed. Says life seems harsh and cruel. Says he feels all alone in a threatening world where what lies ahead is vague and uncertain. Doctor says, "Treatment is simple. Great clown Pagliacci is in town tonight. Go and see him. He will murder you and your family and your friends and your pets. Problem solved." Man bursts into tears. Says, "But doctor... I am Pagliacci."

I'm certain that the reason the DC Murderverse exists is because fucking Zack Snyder complete missed the point of Alan Moore's work, and thought it was an upbeat story.
posted by mikelieman at 4:56 AM on April 4, 2019 [3 favorites]

King Tut?

I got yer King Tut Origin Story RIGHT HERE!
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 4:56 AM on April 4, 2019

On so many levels of ableism this is potentially a bomb waiting to go off (the additional bomb of white unstable dude becomes mass murderer, do we need a movie about that at this time?)

This is something I have ongoing issues with. I love Batman, but have basically concluded that the real horror of Gotham is the lack of mental healthcare available, and how far from the Arkham-type institutions we have not come, how much the same stigmas are still in place. Bruce Wayne is doomed to failure because he wants to solve the problem by being Batman instead of by, you know, funding social programs and influencing policy.

(edited to add: that's Gotham the tv show, though it's true for a lot of Batman stuff generally.)
posted by bile and syntax at 5:52 AM on April 4, 2019 [7 favorites]

the real horror of Gotham is the lack of mental healthcare available

same deal with Peanuts
posted by thelonius at 5:59 AM on April 4, 2019 [7 favorites]

has there ever been a good origin story movie?

Into the Spider Verse was great. So was Captain Marvel. And that's just in the past year. Going back further we get Wonder Woman, Guardians of the Galaxy, Deadpool, Iron Man, Captain America, Sam Raimi's Spider-Man, etc. Super hero origin stories are frequently good and most good superhero series have a good origin story movie.

The problem is survivor bias; most superhero movie series start with the origin story and the bad ones get no sequels (or surprisingly often one; Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer, Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance, The Amazing Spider-Man 2). And the second movie has an experienced team that know what they want to do but is seldom just a copy of the first because you need to do something other than an origin.
posted by Francis at 6:21 AM on April 4, 2019 [2 favorites]

"A Joker with no Batman in sight is actually a pretty good metaphor for 2019."—Stephen Colbert
posted by Doktor Zed at 6:56 AM on April 4, 2019 [10 favorites]

When white people engage in violence or antisocial conduct, it's so interesting and we must understand it and they are antiheroes. The same movie starring black people doesn't exist and can't exist.

I infer that you never saw The Black Panther, or saw it and failed to realize that it was all Killmonger's movie. For that matter, in Aquaman, Black Manta was given surprising depth; I expect we'll see his return.
posted by SPrintF at 7:48 AM on April 4, 2019 [4 favorites]

Tired: grimdark retreads of Heath Ledger style Joker
Wired: Cesar Romero style Joker.
posted by rmd1023 at 11:44 AM on April 4, 2019 [5 favorites]

Well that didn’t take long : white nationalists adapt clowns as their next symbol, yes really
posted by The Whelk at 12:43 PM on April 4, 2019 [2 favorites]

Is the new Joker movie actually complete? Racists might get a rude surprise in at least the promo materials if they make a big thing about it.
posted by rhizome at 1:12 PM on April 4, 2019

I can really only get into this if there's a way that I can headcanon Inherent Vice as the prequel.
posted by Cookiebastard at 1:52 PM on April 4, 2019 [3 favorites]

has there ever been a good origin story movie?


Tim Burton knew that viewers knew what they needed to know about Thomas and Martha being shot to death (and the few who didn’t know didn’t need to know too much) so Batman‘s origin story was dealt with in a ninety-second flashback.

Early in Jessica Jones the titular character and Luke Cage are getting to know each other and there is a laconic exchange that is pretty much as follows:

Jessica: “How did you get your, you know, powers?”

Luke: “Experiment gone wrong. You?”

Jessica: “Accident.”

Eventually each of their shows would devote several hours of airtime to expanding and explaining both of these in more detail, but it added little.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:17 PM on April 4, 2019 [4 favorites]

prefpara, are we actually hurting for black antiheroes on film? Training Day. Hustle and Flow. Black Snake Moan. Omar from the Wire. Hancock. Jules in Pulp Fiction. Shaft. Django. To a certain degree, Spike Lee's Malcom X, and for that matter most protagonists in Spike Lee movies. Some of the better and more nuanced 'shades of gray' characters in cinema.

I kinda get what you're saying, in that I think there are a lot of white characters who are coded 'hero' while doing things that are questionable. If anything, the issue is that black leads are given 'anti-hero' as a default.
posted by es_de_bah at 9:04 PM on April 4, 2019 [1 favorite]

Doktor Zed: "A Joker with no Batman in sight is actually a pretty good metaphor for 2019."—Stephen Colbert

My four-year-old son, seeing the trailer (no, he won't be seeing the movie for years): "where are the superheroes?"


The Whelk: Well that didn’t take long : white nationalists adapt clowns as their next symbol, yes really

Keep scrolling down for @RealHonkHonk, currently with a New Joker avatar. Most recent post: "After 2 years of systematic betrayal by Trump and the Republican Party of their voters (White people), I believe that the idea of the RWDS [Right Wing Death Squad] is very relevant."

In other words, "Trump isn't nearly aggressive and racist." Fffuuuuuu.....

Yup, Pepe + Clown = New Joker
posted by filthy light thief at 8:20 PM on April 6, 2019 [1 favorite]

gamergate types do totally use the joker as a mascot too now, huh? goddammit.
posted by es_de_bah at 10:45 PM on April 16, 2019