An embrace of fluidity can be difficult to grasp
April 9, 2019 9:56 AM Subscribe
“The part of me that grew up feeling straight still feels like there’s this unlived dream of being with a man,” says Herzig. “But when you let go of that, you’re opening up space for this totally other big thing, which is the energy of myself with another woman. I have developed this appreciation for an expansion of attraction.”Women Over 30 Are Leaving Their Husbands and Boyfriends For Other Women
Also unsaid seems to be "misogyny" and "heteronormativity".
I read a lot of "ooh, women are sexually fluid" stuff that never mentions bisexuality or enforced heterosexuality, just as I read a lot of "men are NEVAIR sexually fluid and this has nothing to do with how masculinity is constructed in this society, it's just a fact, despite what history seems to suggest". And then everyone gets into the weeds with "oh, maybe it's...some hormones or something" because god forbid we talk about social pressures on men and women to perform gender and sexuality correctly.
I mean, I support the expansion of attraction, I support the fact that this article can run in InStyle which it could not have ten or fifteen years ago, I support the whole thing of being able to start dating women without losing your job and family which would not have been the norm ten or fifteen years ago....three cheers for our side, in general.
posted by Frowner at 10:22 AM on April 9, 2019 [68 favorites]
I read a lot of "ooh, women are sexually fluid" stuff that never mentions bisexuality or enforced heterosexuality, just as I read a lot of "men are NEVAIR sexually fluid and this has nothing to do with how masculinity is constructed in this society, it's just a fact, despite what history seems to suggest". And then everyone gets into the weeds with "oh, maybe it's...some hormones or something" because god forbid we talk about social pressures on men and women to perform gender and sexuality correctly.
I mean, I support the expansion of attraction, I support the fact that this article can run in InStyle which it could not have ten or fifteen years ago, I support the whole thing of being able to start dating women without losing your job and family which would not have been the norm ten or fifteen years ago....three cheers for our side, in general.
posted by Frowner at 10:22 AM on April 9, 2019 [68 favorites]
I wish we could take "compulsory heterosexuality" as a term back from the TERFs.
posted by praemunire at 10:25 AM on April 9, 2019 [10 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 10:25 AM on April 9, 2019 [10 favorites]
I just can't put a name to this thing, this thing where I've wanted both men and women
FWIW the stories in this article aren't about women finding they like BOTH men and women, but rather finding that while they once liked men, they now like women, and in each case the preferred gender was exclusive. I think for many people that does fall (at least a little bit) outside of their framework for bisexuality.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:26 AM on April 9, 2019 [10 favorites]
FWIW the stories in this article aren't about women finding they like BOTH men and women, but rather finding that while they once liked men, they now like women, and in each case the preferred gender was exclusive. I think for many people that does fall (at least a little bit) outside of their framework for bisexuality.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:26 AM on April 9, 2019 [10 favorites]
FWIW the stories in this article aren't about women finding they like BOTH men and women, but rather finding that while they once liked men, they now like women, and in each case the preferred gender was exclusive.
To me, from the outside, obviously, that didn't necessarily seem to explicitly be the case for all of these women, and it certainly won't be the case for every woman who might find herself attracted to a woman for the first time in her late thirties/forties, which seems to be the group under discussion by the article. While I don't think either is high probability, at this point I think it's way more likely that I might happen to meet one woman who does it for me than that I meet her and stop daydreaming about Chris Evans's biceps.
posted by praemunire at 10:31 AM on April 9, 2019 [4 favorites]
To me, from the outside, obviously, that didn't necessarily seem to explicitly be the case for all of these women, and it certainly won't be the case for every woman who might find herself attracted to a woman for the first time in her late thirties/forties, which seems to be the group under discussion by the article. While I don't think either is high probability, at this point I think it's way more likely that I might happen to meet one woman who does it for me than that I meet her and stop daydreaming about Chris Evans's biceps.
posted by praemunire at 10:31 AM on April 9, 2019 [4 favorites]
I wish we could take "compulsory heterosexuality" as a term back from the TERFs.
What have the TERFs to do with "compulsory heterosexuality"? Is it some kind of dumb "you wouldn't want to transition except that you've been convinced that you can't date women unless you're a man" thing? Aren't most of them straight or 'political lesbians' in the first place?
posted by Frowner at 10:38 AM on April 9, 2019 [7 favorites]
What have the TERFs to do with "compulsory heterosexuality"? Is it some kind of dumb "you wouldn't want to transition except that you've been convinced that you can't date women unless you're a man" thing? Aren't most of them straight or 'political lesbians' in the first place?
posted by Frowner at 10:38 AM on April 9, 2019 [7 favorites]
Apologies -- It seemed to be the case for the women who gave their personal narratives in the article:
Still, it took her almost three years to identify as lesbian — years during which she watched her once vigorous sexual attraction to men diminish.
After a lifetime of strong sexual attraction to men, I’d found myself losing interest as well. In the months after my girlfriend and I got together, even the hottest guy on the train sparked only an aesthetic appreciation. At first I’d been convinced it was just her, but I started to wonder if I’d ever go back to men.
I certainly didn't mean to suggest that no woman would ever find that she is actually bisexual And This Article Is Proof. Only to offer up a possible, not-shitty reason why bisexuality is not the term of focus of this specific article.
But honestly at this point in my life I can no longer fathom being attracted to any person of any form under any circumstances, so like. what do I know.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:41 AM on April 9, 2019 [10 favorites]
Still, it took her almost three years to identify as lesbian — years during which she watched her once vigorous sexual attraction to men diminish.
After a lifetime of strong sexual attraction to men, I’d found myself losing interest as well. In the months after my girlfriend and I got together, even the hottest guy on the train sparked only an aesthetic appreciation. At first I’d been convinced it was just her, but I started to wonder if I’d ever go back to men.
I certainly didn't mean to suggest that no woman would ever find that she is actually bisexual And This Article Is Proof. Only to offer up a possible, not-shitty reason why bisexuality is not the term of focus of this specific article.
But honestly at this point in my life I can no longer fathom being attracted to any person of any form under any circumstances, so like. what do I know.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:41 AM on April 9, 2019 [10 favorites]
“The bonding between women goes beyond sexual attraction,” Kinsberg explained. “So that additional value may push it toward, ‘Why would I go back to men?’
Anecdata, but at a party this past winter a single female friend of a friend in her 30s described her recent dating experiences (which included TWO guys ducking out on expensive restaurant bills), and I can understand why somebody in her position might decide to just give up on men.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:44 AM on April 9, 2019 [13 favorites]
Anecdata, but at a party this past winter a single female friend of a friend in her 30s described her recent dating experiences (which included TWO guys ducking out on expensive restaurant bills), and I can understand why somebody in her position might decide to just give up on men.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:44 AM on April 9, 2019 [13 favorites]
Aren't most of them straight or 'political lesbians' in the first place?
An aside, but I’d say 80% of the self-identified rad fems I know are lesbians. Not “political” lesbians but women-who-fall-in-love-with-and-are-attracted-to-women lesbians. (No idea if you’d consider them “terfs” or not.)
posted by mylittlepoppet at 10:51 AM on April 9, 2019 [4 favorites]
An aside, but I’d say 80% of the self-identified rad fems I know are lesbians. Not “political” lesbians but women-who-fall-in-love-with-and-are-attracted-to-women lesbians. (No idea if you’d consider them “terfs” or not.)
posted by mylittlepoppet at 10:51 AM on April 9, 2019 [4 favorites]
Love, sex, and gender have become overly politicized, it seems to me, primarily by the entities masquerading as the press or "news" *cough* media aka attention economy holdovers
posted by infini at 11:02 AM on April 9, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by infini at 11:02 AM on April 9, 2019 [4 favorites]
Lisa Diamond does pretty solid research on sexuality, so her take in this article is pretty reasonable. I don’t get why some of you folks are so upset with the idea that sexual attraction can be fluid in ways that don’t neatly slot into gay/straight/bi categories.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 11:12 AM on April 9, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by Big Al 8000 at 11:12 AM on April 9, 2019 [7 favorites]
This pressure on woman to perform heteronormative goes hand in hand with the previous article about performing fashion. Woman get policed by other and their own selfconstract. Woman are doing it wrong. Women in their middle age, after decades of Tring to do it then stop giving a flying pig.
posted by thegirlwiththehat at 11:14 AM on April 9, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by thegirlwiththehat at 11:14 AM on April 9, 2019 [1 favorite]
I keep thinking that as I generally get along better with women it would be great to be attracted to them instead of men, but the Fairy of Fluidity/Bisexuality/Whatever has not drifted down to touch me with her magic and so I continue to prefer the male types.
It's very tiring when so many of them have been socialized to be total douchebags. If attraction was a switch you could voluntarily flip, I would seriously consider it.
posted by emjaybee at 11:17 AM on April 9, 2019 [30 favorites]
It's very tiring when so many of them have been socialized to be total douchebags. If attraction was a switch you could voluntarily flip, I would seriously consider it.
posted by emjaybee at 11:17 AM on April 9, 2019 [30 favorites]
I've thought that too. My body is sadly stuck in "straight" and I'm envious of my far more fluid and flexible partner.
posted by infini at 11:27 AM on April 9, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by infini at 11:27 AM on April 9, 2019 [3 favorites]
I don’t get why some of you folks are so upset with the idea that sexual attraction can be fluid in ways that don’t neatly slot into gay/straight/bi categories.
I'm not upset with the "idea" that attraction "doesn't slot neatly" into queer categories. I'm not 100% happy with the discourse that happens around the term "sexual fluidity" in mainstream media.
- a lot people who find "lesbian" or "gay" icky-bad and "bisexual" slutty are okay with saying "fluidity" since it's not contaminated by actual queerness. You're not queer, you're just "fluid". Non-straight women are seen as enormously threatening to the social order, and so there's a huge pressure on women to describe their sexuality in ways that are non-definitive, not too scary and still appropriately feminine. I feel like "fluid" is an appealing term because it suggests no boundaries or withholding, and therefore doesn't sound like it's about withholding anything from men.
- While I don't think everyone has to jump on a float at Pride, I find it concerning when people date non-heterosexually but want to distance themselves from queerness. "Oh, I only date other men but I'm not gay or anything"...."I date people of all genders but that doesn't make me queer or pansexual or bisexual or anything, I just love the people I love!!!!" I always find that reasoning sort of dodgy, because the freedom that any person has to date non-straightly is built on the backs of people who did say that they were gay or queer or trans, etc, and who paid a quite high price. "The heart wants what it wants, but don't make me take any risk or responsibility" is not an attractive position.
- The people who hate lesbians and gay men don't actually like "fluid" people either, and folks should not kid themselves.
~~
I'm a visibly queer and gender non-conforming person. I could say my sexuality was "fluid" - which it is - all day long and it would not make me socially acceptable, and no one would call me "fluid", because "fluid" is used in mainstream discourse as a term for straight-passing ladies who just happen to sleep with other ladies. "Fluid" is a term that generally gets used for "women who perform femininity enough to be attractive to a wide range of straight men, but who date or have sex with women".
No one looks at masculine spectrum AFAB people and says, "hey, I bet you're sexually fluid!" The assumption is that masculine spectrum people are gross and weird and icky to begin with and that we can't be "fluid" because no actual man would sleep with us on account of being gross and weird and icky. That is, our sexuality isn't about what we want; it's about whether we're desirable enough for men to want to fuck, or whether "only" women or nonbinary people would sleep with someone so undesirable.
~~
I think that if someone feels best describing herself as sexually fluid, that's totally fine, whether she later describes herself differently or thinks of herself as fluid to the end of her days. No acceptable purpose is served by trying to bully individual people out of terms that they find helpful and expressive.
But that's not the same as considering why different words tend to become widespread at different times, or how they're used and for whom.
posted by Frowner at 11:41 AM on April 9, 2019 [162 favorites]
I'm not upset with the "idea" that attraction "doesn't slot neatly" into queer categories. I'm not 100% happy with the discourse that happens around the term "sexual fluidity" in mainstream media.
- a lot people who find "lesbian" or "gay" icky-bad and "bisexual" slutty are okay with saying "fluidity" since it's not contaminated by actual queerness. You're not queer, you're just "fluid". Non-straight women are seen as enormously threatening to the social order, and so there's a huge pressure on women to describe their sexuality in ways that are non-definitive, not too scary and still appropriately feminine. I feel like "fluid" is an appealing term because it suggests no boundaries or withholding, and therefore doesn't sound like it's about withholding anything from men.
- While I don't think everyone has to jump on a float at Pride, I find it concerning when people date non-heterosexually but want to distance themselves from queerness. "Oh, I only date other men but I'm not gay or anything"...."I date people of all genders but that doesn't make me queer or pansexual or bisexual or anything, I just love the people I love!!!!" I always find that reasoning sort of dodgy, because the freedom that any person has to date non-straightly is built on the backs of people who did say that they were gay or queer or trans, etc, and who paid a quite high price. "The heart wants what it wants, but don't make me take any risk or responsibility" is not an attractive position.
- The people who hate lesbians and gay men don't actually like "fluid" people either, and folks should not kid themselves.
~~
I'm a visibly queer and gender non-conforming person. I could say my sexuality was "fluid" - which it is - all day long and it would not make me socially acceptable, and no one would call me "fluid", because "fluid" is used in mainstream discourse as a term for straight-passing ladies who just happen to sleep with other ladies. "Fluid" is a term that generally gets used for "women who perform femininity enough to be attractive to a wide range of straight men, but who date or have sex with women".
No one looks at masculine spectrum AFAB people and says, "hey, I bet you're sexually fluid!" The assumption is that masculine spectrum people are gross and weird and icky to begin with and that we can't be "fluid" because no actual man would sleep with us on account of being gross and weird and icky. That is, our sexuality isn't about what we want; it's about whether we're desirable enough for men to want to fuck, or whether "only" women or nonbinary people would sleep with someone so undesirable.
~~
I think that if someone feels best describing herself as sexually fluid, that's totally fine, whether she later describes herself differently or thinks of herself as fluid to the end of her days. No acceptable purpose is served by trying to bully individual people out of terms that they find helpful and expressive.
But that's not the same as considering why different words tend to become widespread at different times, or how they're used and for whom.
posted by Frowner at 11:41 AM on April 9, 2019 [162 favorites]
I could not possibly respond better to that comment any better than Frowner just did.
posted by praemunire at 11:46 AM on April 9, 2019 [12 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 11:46 AM on April 9, 2019 [12 favorites]
I mean, there's a big difference between someone saying about themselves, "my sexuality seems to change over time and keep changing....I feel like it's fluid rather than fixed, so I call myself sexually fluid rather than straight, lesbian, bisexual and so on" which is obviously perfectly reasonable and a very good new usage, and the type of pseudo medical "women, unlike men, are sexually fluid because hormones, that's not the same as being a [n icky discomfiting non-man-prioritizing] lesbian" discourse that I see a lot.
There's also a sort of back-formation along the lines of "well, women are sexually fluid, so how do you know that you actually don't want to sleep with any men" where the supposed "fluidity" of women's sexuality is used to invalidate what women want.
posted by Frowner at 11:51 AM on April 9, 2019 [34 favorites]
There's also a sort of back-formation along the lines of "well, women are sexually fluid, so how do you know that you actually don't want to sleep with any men" where the supposed "fluidity" of women's sexuality is used to invalidate what women want.
posted by Frowner at 11:51 AM on April 9, 2019 [34 favorites]
And I apologize for posting once more: because I made a big comment critical of some of the discourse around 'sexual fluidity", I want to state clearly that I don't think there's anything wrong with a person feeling that their sexuality is best described as fluid. There wouldn't be anything wrong with some kind of "fluid4fluid" dating preference. If people's sexuality is changeable, saying "my sexuality is changeable" is good, not bad or politically dubious, and having a changeable sexuality is fine and good and no one should be an asshole about it.
Like, despite my comment upthread, I would really hate it if "fluid people just haven't made up their minds" became the new "bisexuality doesn't exist".
posted by Frowner at 11:57 AM on April 9, 2019 [24 favorites]
Like, despite my comment upthread, I would really hate it if "fluid people just haven't made up their minds" became the new "bisexuality doesn't exist".
posted by Frowner at 11:57 AM on April 9, 2019 [24 favorites]
I don’t get why some of you folks are so upset with the idea that sexual attraction can be fluid in ways that don’t neatly slot into gay/straight/bi categories.
I mean. My experience of it is outside those categories, and I still feel exactly the same as Frowner about the way that "fluid" is used specifically for femme women/people who are currently being perceived as women. (And I also have distinct problems with the way that "bisexuality" is often assumed to mean "equally attracted to men and women with a perfect 50/50 split" in full defiance of the way it has been used by bisexual and pansexual people for at least forty years now, for that matter.)
posted by sciatrix at 12:03 PM on April 9, 2019 [30 favorites]
I mean. My experience of it is outside those categories, and I still feel exactly the same as Frowner about the way that "fluid" is used specifically for femme women/people who are currently being perceived as women. (And I also have distinct problems with the way that "bisexuality" is often assumed to mean "equally attracted to men and women with a perfect 50/50 split" in full defiance of the way it has been used by bisexual and pansexual people for at least forty years now, for that matter.)
posted by sciatrix at 12:03 PM on April 9, 2019 [30 favorites]
Big Al 8000: Lisa Diamond does pretty solid research on sexuality, so her take in this article is pretty reasonable. I don’t get why some of you folks are so upset with the idea that sexual attraction can be fluid in ways that don’t neatly slot into gay/straight/bi categories.
Probably because we live in a culture where everyone in mass media bends over backwards to use "sexually fluid," "flexible," and "doesn't want to be labeled" as code for bisexual, while 1/2 bi women and 1/4 bi men are survivors of intimate partner violence and sexual assault (that's just one problem out there). And it feels like every year or so we get yet another article about how women are just naturally fluid so it doesn't mean anything, while men are naturally dichotomous so it means everything. There is something going on when we get all these articles about women who come out as "fluid" and men who come out as "heteroflexible," and very little about what out bi people are doing.
In other words, some of us are picking up on what is a long-standing editorial bias.
Frowner: What have the TERFs to do with "compulsory heterosexuality"? Is it some kind of dumb "you wouldn't want to transition except that you've been convinced that you can't date women unless you're a man" thing? Aren't most of them straight or 'political lesbians' in the first place?
Some TERFs have chosen to include biphobia in their repertoire, which includes an argument that bi women's relationships with men are just "compulsory heterosexuality."
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 12:05 PM on April 9, 2019 [27 favorites]
Probably because we live in a culture where everyone in mass media bends over backwards to use "sexually fluid," "flexible," and "doesn't want to be labeled" as code for bisexual, while 1/2 bi women and 1/4 bi men are survivors of intimate partner violence and sexual assault (that's just one problem out there). And it feels like every year or so we get yet another article about how women are just naturally fluid so it doesn't mean anything, while men are naturally dichotomous so it means everything. There is something going on when we get all these articles about women who come out as "fluid" and men who come out as "heteroflexible," and very little about what out bi people are doing.
In other words, some of us are picking up on what is a long-standing editorial bias.
Frowner: What have the TERFs to do with "compulsory heterosexuality"? Is it some kind of dumb "you wouldn't want to transition except that you've been convinced that you can't date women unless you're a man" thing? Aren't most of them straight or 'political lesbians' in the first place?
Some TERFs have chosen to include biphobia in their repertoire, which includes an argument that bi women's relationships with men are just "compulsory heterosexuality."
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 12:05 PM on April 9, 2019 [27 favorites]
... where the supposed "fluidity" of women's sexuality is used to invalidate what women want.
If there's one thing I find repulsive, it's men who think that a woman should want to have sex with a woman as a kind of party trick, a favor to men, for this reason.
I love and value women, and things would make so much more sense for me if I felt sexual attraction to them. But that is just not where I am at, and it's because I care about women that I don't try to make myself feel that way. I am extremely glad for any woman who does, of course, and I am not interested in picking out labels for her life.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:07 PM on April 9, 2019 [3 favorites]
If there's one thing I find repulsive, it's men who think that a woman should want to have sex with a woman as a kind of party trick, a favor to men, for this reason.
I love and value women, and things would make so much more sense for me if I felt sexual attraction to them. But that is just not where I am at, and it's because I care about women that I don't try to make myself feel that way. I am extremely glad for any woman who does, of course, and I am not interested in picking out labels for her life.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:07 PM on April 9, 2019 [3 favorites]
Mod note: Couple comments deleted; maybe call it good on "compulsory heterosexuality"/TERFs unless there's some really necessary insight; seems like it'd be easy to run off onto a heated derail there, and maybe we can just steer back toward the article instead.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:15 PM on April 9, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:15 PM on April 9, 2019 [3 favorites]
I think that there's a couple things going on. (also, I feel like maybe we've discussed this before? or maybe it's just me)
First, more people probably have some degree of sexual fluidity than people like to think - regardless of their orientation, it's probably rare that people have the kind of orientation exclusivity that means they can't /enjoy/ sex with a person who falls out of what they normally desire.
Secondly, the elephant in the room for this article is that the pickings are awfully slim for heterosexual women in their thirties who want a committed relationship with someone capable of acting like an adult. I have many single friends in their thirties who are pushing through this. It is rough out there. It is exhausting out there. So many women are dating so many unsatisfying men.
It's entirely reasonable that women who are seeing men act like enormous children that they would have to take care of for all their lives, are interested in dating women their own age who don't have all of those shitty expectations. Like, I find it hard to understand why they wouldn't be?
posted by corb at 12:17 PM on April 9, 2019 [29 favorites]
First, more people probably have some degree of sexual fluidity than people like to think - regardless of their orientation, it's probably rare that people have the kind of orientation exclusivity that means they can't /enjoy/ sex with a person who falls out of what they normally desire.
Secondly, the elephant in the room for this article is that the pickings are awfully slim for heterosexual women in their thirties who want a committed relationship with someone capable of acting like an adult. I have many single friends in their thirties who are pushing through this. It is rough out there. It is exhausting out there. So many women are dating so many unsatisfying men.
It's entirely reasonable that women who are seeing men act like enormous children that they would have to take care of for all their lives, are interested in dating women their own age who don't have all of those shitty expectations. Like, I find it hard to understand why they wouldn't be?
posted by corb at 12:17 PM on April 9, 2019 [29 favorites]
The framing of this article is definitely weird, but it strongly reminded me of the conversation in this AskMe question from a bi woman who had lost her attraction to her male partner and was distressed about it. In the comments, a bunch of women said that they'd experienced similar shifts over the past few years because of stuff like #MeToo and the emotional labor stuff and Trump - all of that has just put a lot of people off men as a concept, apparently.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:22 PM on April 9, 2019 [21 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:22 PM on April 9, 2019 [21 favorites]
Oh, and then there's the editorial thing about trying to put sexuality into simple little boxes, until it isn't then OMG we must have an article about it!
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 12:24 PM on April 9, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 12:24 PM on April 9, 2019 [3 favorites]
I sure wish someone had mentioned the possibility of sexual fluidity to me before I made a lifelong, exclusive commitment to one person. I'm surprised how breezily this article deals with how scary and devastating a sudden shift in sexual orientation can be if you don't know it's a thing that can happen and have planned your life around that. Mine was thankfully temporary (hormonal), but I couldn't have known that at the time, obviously. And this article makes it seem like it could happen again, permanently?! Say what?
I feel like the women profiled all just sort of... passively went with it? Like... I'm married, I have kids. It's not a small thing to just up and leave. In fact, it would be a breach in the most important commitment I've ever made. It would turn my life upside down. But the article makes it seem like everyone in it just woke up one day all, "Bye spouse, guess I'm gay now! Catch ya later!"
I mean, maybe really these stories are "I gradually fell out of love with my spouse as I fell in love with this other woman," which is a different thing than what I'm talking about. But it's absolutely possible to wake up one day suddenly no longer attracted to a gender you've felt at least some attraction to since puberty, and that kind of sexual change is freaking terrifying, and I certainly didn't know it was possible until I experienced it.
posted by potrzebie at 12:28 PM on April 9, 2019 [19 favorites]
I feel like the women profiled all just sort of... passively went with it? Like... I'm married, I have kids. It's not a small thing to just up and leave. In fact, it would be a breach in the most important commitment I've ever made. It would turn my life upside down. But the article makes it seem like everyone in it just woke up one day all, "Bye spouse, guess I'm gay now! Catch ya later!"
I mean, maybe really these stories are "I gradually fell out of love with my spouse as I fell in love with this other woman," which is a different thing than what I'm talking about. But it's absolutely possible to wake up one day suddenly no longer attracted to a gender you've felt at least some attraction to since puberty, and that kind of sexual change is freaking terrifying, and I certainly didn't know it was possible until I experienced it.
posted by potrzebie at 12:28 PM on April 9, 2019 [19 favorites]
I'm much happier since I stopped dating men and women.
posted by poe at 12:30 PM on April 9, 2019 [14 favorites]
posted by poe at 12:30 PM on April 9, 2019 [14 favorites]
I'm going to totally generalize from my own personal, idiosyncratic experience ...
I was so confused for years by my uneven and then changing bisexuality (first primarily attracted to boys/men, then increasingly to women as I got older). But then I realized something: for me, personally, I just happen to be attracted to be more attracted to young men and middle aged women than I am to young women or middle-aged men. (Fortunately for me, my SO just happens to be a middle-aged man who looks like a young one; I should check our attic for any suspicious paintings).
Also, I got over the self-stigma that if you're not 50/50 you're somehow not 'properly' bisexual.
I have no idea if this relates at all to anyone else's experience. Just putting it out there as yet another "isn't human diversity grand?" moment.
posted by jb at 12:38 PM on April 9, 2019 [14 favorites]
I was so confused for years by my uneven and then changing bisexuality (first primarily attracted to boys/men, then increasingly to women as I got older). But then I realized something: for me, personally, I just happen to be attracted to be more attracted to young men and middle aged women than I am to young women or middle-aged men. (Fortunately for me, my SO just happens to be a middle-aged man who looks like a young one; I should check our attic for any suspicious paintings).
Also, I got over the self-stigma that if you're not 50/50 you're somehow not 'properly' bisexual.
I have no idea if this relates at all to anyone else's experience. Just putting it out there as yet another "isn't human diversity grand?" moment.
posted by jb at 12:38 PM on April 9, 2019 [14 favorites]
By the sound of it, "fluid" used to describe female sexuality works the same way as....oh, I got into an argument about this recently here and can't add much to what Frowner said, but I will say that from a cis queer male perspective "why are we all so hung up on labels" feels like it maps pretty well to "I like getting it on with guys but am less keen on speaking up for queer people in any predominantly straight context."
posted by Smearcase at 12:52 PM on April 9, 2019 [27 favorites]
posted by Smearcase at 12:52 PM on April 9, 2019 [27 favorites]
As someone who feels like "fluid" might be a better descriptor of the life trajectory of her sexuality than "bisexual," I feel like there are a lot of harsh and hostile motives being ascribed to that position.
posted by drlith at 1:08 PM on April 9, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by drlith at 1:08 PM on April 9, 2019 [7 favorites]
I am demisexual at best and have gladly, joyfully opted out of the whole dating circus, and my life and my mental outlook have improved 100% because of it. So I don't have a dog in this fight. And I am enjoying what Frowner and others who are knowledgeable have to say about TFA.
But I have to say that "women are naturally sexually fluid, it's Biology!" veers dangerously into the realm of ev-psych, which is a garden full of poison oak and noxious weeds. I don't think women are "naturally" sexually fluid due to biology or men "sexually rigid" (har har) due to the same.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 1:14 PM on April 9, 2019 [16 favorites]
But I have to say that "women are naturally sexually fluid, it's Biology!" veers dangerously into the realm of ev-psych, which is a garden full of poison oak and noxious weeds. I don't think women are "naturally" sexually fluid due to biology or men "sexually rigid" (har har) due to the same.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 1:14 PM on April 9, 2019 [16 favorites]
My apologies, I'm trying hard to "punch up" and question why a Time Inc., magazine is choosing this particular editorial stance or why media producers who handle millions of production dollars refuse to commit. That doesn't always come across.
And I mean, I'm bi because that's the language that's used to discuss intimate partner violence, HIV prevention, medical bias, and mental health. That's just a sorting category though. I'm pretty committed to not doing heterosexuality again though.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 1:20 PM on April 9, 2019
And I mean, I'm bi because that's the language that's used to discuss intimate partner violence, HIV prevention, medical bias, and mental health. That's just a sorting category though. I'm pretty committed to not doing heterosexuality again though.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 1:20 PM on April 9, 2019
Honestly i have no issue with people describing themselves as fluid. I feel like that led to the rise of labels like pan which while they have their issues, are mostly fine.
What DOES get my hackles up is when writers, and third parties ascribe fluidity to womens sexuality as if it's some kind of given. It sort of plays back into the "bi men are just gay, bi women are really just mostly straight" trope in that, why are men always centered?
There's a difference between "things change over time" and almost wanting for women to not define their sexuality as some kind of reach for wokeness.
Some people get gayer with time, it isn't just something that becomes more confusing. And like, somehow this seems to be taken in so much more of a confusing way(for lots of definable reasons) when it's women moving away from dating men, rather than vice versa.
I dunno, i've just seen a lot of bad faith around this offline. It bugs me that this stuff veers away from both "legalize questioning" and like, it's ok to be bi or mostly gay(or just a lesbian). It's always "Fluidity is good! labels bad!"
You can tell my thoughts about this are jumbled, but frustrated jumbled, ok. I've just seen a lot of buttheadery and am frustrated that after years of being out, and the same for friends, "i'm not really interested in men actually" seems to be the most contentious bit of my identity in a lot of conversations where the default grounding of respecting my personhood/the general progressiveness of the audience has been established. I swear to god "i'm moving away from men actually" is as bad as "i don't like weed" or something
"but have u tried this one strain of dude-"
posted by emptythought at 1:40 PM on April 9, 2019 [20 favorites]
What DOES get my hackles up is when writers, and third parties ascribe fluidity to womens sexuality as if it's some kind of given. It sort of plays back into the "bi men are just gay, bi women are really just mostly straight" trope in that, why are men always centered?
There's a difference between "things change over time" and almost wanting for women to not define their sexuality as some kind of reach for wokeness.
Some people get gayer with time, it isn't just something that becomes more confusing. And like, somehow this seems to be taken in so much more of a confusing way(for lots of definable reasons) when it's women moving away from dating men, rather than vice versa.
I dunno, i've just seen a lot of bad faith around this offline. It bugs me that this stuff veers away from both "legalize questioning" and like, it's ok to be bi or mostly gay(or just a lesbian). It's always "Fluidity is good! labels bad!"
You can tell my thoughts about this are jumbled, but frustrated jumbled, ok. I've just seen a lot of buttheadery and am frustrated that after years of being out, and the same for friends, "i'm not really interested in men actually" seems to be the most contentious bit of my identity in a lot of conversations where the default grounding of respecting my personhood/the general progressiveness of the audience has been established. I swear to god "i'm moving away from men actually" is as bad as "i don't like weed" or something
"but have u tried this one strain of dude-"
posted by emptythought at 1:40 PM on April 9, 2019 [20 favorites]
It's entirely reasonable that women who are seeing men act like enormous children that they would have to take care of for all their lives, are interested in dating women their own age who don't have all of those shitty expectations. Like, I find it hard to understand why they wouldn't be?
If only I wanted to sleep with them. :(
My life has shifted to center women almost exclusively; if you, a dude, aren't family or involved with family, or grandfathered in from earlier times, good luck cracking my social circle. But. Alas. Just not attracted to them (though insert disclaimer about sexuality not being set in stone, etc.). I wonder how many older heterosexual women just don't care enough about sex that it's easier for them to make that transition--I mean, if you've been having unsatisfying sex with men your whole life and don't even know to expect better, maybe it's easier to go into a romantic relationship with a woman with similar experiences having a relatively low level of sexual desire for her? But that doesn't appear to be the case with the subjects of this article, at least: they are talking about strong sexual desire.
posted by praemunire at 2:08 PM on April 9, 2019 [5 favorites]
If only I wanted to sleep with them. :(
My life has shifted to center women almost exclusively; if you, a dude, aren't family or involved with family, or grandfathered in from earlier times, good luck cracking my social circle. But. Alas. Just not attracted to them (though insert disclaimer about sexuality not being set in stone, etc.). I wonder how many older heterosexual women just don't care enough about sex that it's easier for them to make that transition--I mean, if you've been having unsatisfying sex with men your whole life and don't even know to expect better, maybe it's easier to go into a romantic relationship with a woman with similar experiences having a relatively low level of sexual desire for her? But that doesn't appear to be the case with the subjects of this article, at least: they are talking about strong sexual desire.
posted by praemunire at 2:08 PM on April 9, 2019 [5 favorites]
I'm a lesbian and I'm %100 a lesbian. My sexuality isn't "fluid". It's an unwavering brick thats 500 yards away from men. I am different, my life is different, because social occurrences surrounding male attraction - the very thing that women's lives are supposed built on and derive worth from, do not apply to me. Calling a woman "queer" or "fluid" when she's a lesbian does only one thing - allows the audience to believe she's interested in men. Society doesn't like women who deny men. Who aren't centered around men. We (all women) are beaten, killed, raped, institutionalized to remain open to men at all times. Likewise, calling a bi woman fluid is just bisexual erasure.
Anyway I'm dating a woman now, who is a lesbian, who semi recently ended an 8 year marriage to a man she met right out of highschool. And she's not the only person I know who is exploring homosexual relationships later in life. It's also happening in regards to gender. I've seen several people I went to high school with come out in the past 3 years or so.
posted by FirstMateKate at 2:11 PM on April 9, 2019 [24 favorites]
Anyway I'm dating a woman now, who is a lesbian, who semi recently ended an 8 year marriage to a man she met right out of highschool. And she's not the only person I know who is exploring homosexual relationships later in life. It's also happening in regards to gender. I've seen several people I went to high school with come out in the past 3 years or so.
posted by FirstMateKate at 2:11 PM on April 9, 2019 [24 favorites]
Calling a woman "queer" or "fluid" when she's a lesbian does only one thing - allows the audience to believe she's interested in men.
Does only one thing. I mean, I know not everyone loves the label queer, but this a new take to me.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 2:29 PM on April 9, 2019 [10 favorites]
Does only one thing. I mean, I know not everyone loves the label queer, but this a new take to me.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 2:29 PM on April 9, 2019 [10 favorites]
If this was a Twitter convo, I world have simply retweeted Frowner with "THREAD!"
As it is, I'm not so sure this is confined to older women. There's that dubious poll in the Washington Post saying saying male virginity rates have doubled in the last decade or so. And the rise in Incels. So the question might be for women of any age; why put up with bad sex and horrible personalities, when you don't have to?
posted by happyroach at 2:34 PM on April 9, 2019 [2 favorites]
As it is, I'm not so sure this is confined to older women. There's that dubious poll in the Washington Post saying saying male virginity rates have doubled in the last decade or so. And the rise in Incels. So the question might be for women of any age; why put up with bad sex and horrible personalities, when you don't have to?
posted by happyroach at 2:34 PM on April 9, 2019 [2 favorites]
I didn't realize just how little I knew about women's bodies until I started working in a strip club. The sex industry is a confusing place to learn about women's bodies, especially because you're surrounded by a lot of customers who are learning with you, by interacting with you.
One of my favorite experiences as a stripper is giving a lap dance to women who have never really touched another woman's body. Most of the time, these female customers are nervous to touch, even when I tell them that they can. They tend to touch differently than men—usually gingerly at first, and then in a cautiously exploratory fashion. They start at the top outer corners of my breasts and slowly work their way inward towards my nipples, like they're building up the courage. Usually they get really into it at around two to two-and-a-half minutes. Sometimes I have to gently tell them that they must keep their own shirts on, haha. My guess, based on the things they say to me, is that the overwhelming majority of these women would identify as straight. I never directly inquire about a customer's sexual orientation though, since it's none of my business.
I think of the many, many hands on my breasts over the years. Thousands of hands. I've been touched so many times by so many people. Most of those people don't really care about me enough to be nervous about touching me. But with these female customers, it's special to me because I can feel that it's special to them.
A lot of these female customers are not just young twentysomethings; they're in their thirties and forties and fifties. Maybe some of them have always been interested in women, even if they've never apparently been physically intimate with another women. But I get the impression that a lot of them are doing something very spontaneous by getting a lap dance with me. It seems that exploring the body of another woman is not something they've thought forever about and are "finally" acting on. Instead, it feels as though it is something they never realized they wanted to do and never realized they were missing out on. As a stripper, it's strange but wonderful to help facilitate that realization.
Everybody has a body, but so many women never really know what another woman's body is like. I hope that this is changing, as the linked article suggests, regardless of how we categorize and label it.
posted by Peppermint Snowflake at 2:39 PM on April 9, 2019 [83 favorites]
One of my favorite experiences as a stripper is giving a lap dance to women who have never really touched another woman's body. Most of the time, these female customers are nervous to touch, even when I tell them that they can. They tend to touch differently than men—usually gingerly at first, and then in a cautiously exploratory fashion. They start at the top outer corners of my breasts and slowly work their way inward towards my nipples, like they're building up the courage. Usually they get really into it at around two to two-and-a-half minutes. Sometimes I have to gently tell them that they must keep their own shirts on, haha. My guess, based on the things they say to me, is that the overwhelming majority of these women would identify as straight. I never directly inquire about a customer's sexual orientation though, since it's none of my business.
I think of the many, many hands on my breasts over the years. Thousands of hands. I've been touched so many times by so many people. Most of those people don't really care about me enough to be nervous about touching me. But with these female customers, it's special to me because I can feel that it's special to them.
A lot of these female customers are not just young twentysomethings; they're in their thirties and forties and fifties. Maybe some of them have always been interested in women, even if they've never apparently been physically intimate with another women. But I get the impression that a lot of them are doing something very spontaneous by getting a lap dance with me. It seems that exploring the body of another woman is not something they've thought forever about and are "finally" acting on. Instead, it feels as though it is something they never realized they wanted to do and never realized they were missing out on. As a stripper, it's strange but wonderful to help facilitate that realization.
Everybody has a body, but so many women never really know what another woman's body is like. I hope that this is changing, as the linked article suggests, regardless of how we categorize and label it.
posted by Peppermint Snowflake at 2:39 PM on April 9, 2019 [83 favorites]
I loved your story, Peppermint Snowflake. There's a reason an old lesbian slogan of the 70's is "Don't Die Wondering"
posted by FirstMateKate at 2:46 PM on April 9, 2019 [18 favorites]
posted by FirstMateKate at 2:46 PM on April 9, 2019 [18 favorites]
This is me. Well, sort of. I didn't leave my male partner because I didn't have one. But I figured out in my late thirties/early forties that I was queer and not all that interested in cis men.
This particular article, and other articles with this general take, regularly makes the rounds of online communities for "later coming out lesbians" and ... it's not super popular with women who are going through this, or have. And since I don't really see that perspective represented here, I'm gonna dive in with some critiques:
- The tone is almost aggressively breezy. "Oh hey, I wasn't attracted to women before, now I am, NBD!" Sorry, it's a big deal. Especially for women who were married and had kids. Some of the stories I've heard, and conversations I've had with friends going through this, are fucking heartbreaking. Women having to figure out if they can, or if they should, break up their families in order to pursue what they want. It taps into so much of what women are taught about prioritizing their own needs, what it means to be a good wife/mother, etc. Some of the women I've heard from have lost their communities, friends, etc. It's fucking hard.
- The whole thing about "don't worry, it's not that you were clueless/repressed, it's just that you're fluid!" is frankly kind of patronizing. I do know some women who feel like a switch flipped and they went from being straight to gay. But in the vast majority of the stories I've heard from the women I know (including myself), there were clues and hints throughout our lives, that we either ignored or repressed. I think it's patronizing to tell women not to worry about that. We can handle some introspection about our lives.
- As many others have mentioned, it ignores both heteronormativity and outright homophobia. I think for straight people and even some queer people, it can be easy to forget how much things have changed in terms of representation and awareness of queer people in just the last few decades. No, not everything is perfect now, but hell, when I was a kid, there were absolutely no role models for being a queer woman. There was Martina Navratilova, and that awkward episode of The Golden Girls. I joke that Kate and Allie were my lesbian role models, but it's not really a joke.
And I was relatively lucky, not growing up in a homophobic home or religion (though I did grow up in a pretty homophobic community). But I have heard so many stories of women who KNEW they liked girls from a really young age, but also "knew" it was wrong. Some of them just repressed it, some innocently told their parents and were reprimanded, and then went on to marry men in an attempt to be normal.
Anyway, it's not like sexuality can't be fluid, or that there's never a "switch that flips." But what I've seen a lot more commonly, and what I experienced myself, is that there's just this vague sense or question in the background, that doesn't get fully explored until women are ready to, or something happens that forces them to.
Basically, the narrative presented in this article is really flat and narrow. The reality is so much more complex. There are so many different paths and stories and reasons and they are all valid and important.
Oh and the whole idea that it's evolutionary, and happens after women have fulfilled their biological destiny by having kids or some shit - sure maybe. Or maybe their thirties and forties is when a lot of women finally feel secure and comfortable enough to actually think about what they want, to challenge what society tells them they should want. Or maybe that confidence allows them to challenge the idea that male validation is the most important thing?
So - I'm glad the whole topic of women coming out later is getting more attention (because I think it's so important to push back on the idea that you have to know from, like, birth that you're queer) but boy do I wish it were handled better.
posted by lunasol at 3:05 PM on April 9, 2019 [58 favorites]
This particular article, and other articles with this general take, regularly makes the rounds of online communities for "later coming out lesbians" and ... it's not super popular with women who are going through this, or have. And since I don't really see that perspective represented here, I'm gonna dive in with some critiques:
- The tone is almost aggressively breezy. "Oh hey, I wasn't attracted to women before, now I am, NBD!" Sorry, it's a big deal. Especially for women who were married and had kids. Some of the stories I've heard, and conversations I've had with friends going through this, are fucking heartbreaking. Women having to figure out if they can, or if they should, break up their families in order to pursue what they want. It taps into so much of what women are taught about prioritizing their own needs, what it means to be a good wife/mother, etc. Some of the women I've heard from have lost their communities, friends, etc. It's fucking hard.
- The whole thing about "don't worry, it's not that you were clueless/repressed, it's just that you're fluid!" is frankly kind of patronizing. I do know some women who feel like a switch flipped and they went from being straight to gay. But in the vast majority of the stories I've heard from the women I know (including myself), there were clues and hints throughout our lives, that we either ignored or repressed. I think it's patronizing to tell women not to worry about that. We can handle some introspection about our lives.
- As many others have mentioned, it ignores both heteronormativity and outright homophobia. I think for straight people and even some queer people, it can be easy to forget how much things have changed in terms of representation and awareness of queer people in just the last few decades. No, not everything is perfect now, but hell, when I was a kid, there were absolutely no role models for being a queer woman. There was Martina Navratilova, and that awkward episode of The Golden Girls. I joke that Kate and Allie were my lesbian role models, but it's not really a joke.
And I was relatively lucky, not growing up in a homophobic home or religion (though I did grow up in a pretty homophobic community). But I have heard so many stories of women who KNEW they liked girls from a really young age, but also "knew" it was wrong. Some of them just repressed it, some innocently told their parents and were reprimanded, and then went on to marry men in an attempt to be normal.
Anyway, it's not like sexuality can't be fluid, or that there's never a "switch that flips." But what I've seen a lot more commonly, and what I experienced myself, is that there's just this vague sense or question in the background, that doesn't get fully explored until women are ready to, or something happens that forces them to.
Basically, the narrative presented in this article is really flat and narrow. The reality is so much more complex. There are so many different paths and stories and reasons and they are all valid and important.
Oh and the whole idea that it's evolutionary, and happens after women have fulfilled their biological destiny by having kids or some shit - sure maybe. Or maybe their thirties and forties is when a lot of women finally feel secure and comfortable enough to actually think about what they want, to challenge what society tells them they should want. Or maybe that confidence allows them to challenge the idea that male validation is the most important thing?
So - I'm glad the whole topic of women coming out later is getting more attention (because I think it's so important to push back on the idea that you have to know from, like, birth that you're queer) but boy do I wish it were handled better.
posted by lunasol at 3:05 PM on April 9, 2019 [58 favorites]
Calling a woman "queer" or "fluid" when she's a lesbian does only one thing - allows the audience to believe she's interested in men.
Speaking as someone who is not interested in men, who does identify as queer, and who routinely passes as lesbian day-to-day:
I don't think this is the whole story. There is a lot of trauma in communities of women who date or build households with other women about identification and words and who is allowed or encouraged to use what labels. Some of that trauma comes from the practice of non-consensually labeling women regardless of their stated identity, and ignoring, repeatedly forgetting, and undermining claimed identities in favor of the label the observer chooses to apply.
We use identity labels to communicate with each other, and particularly within the broader umbrella of women in the alphabet community, there are a lot of complexities to communicate. One of those complexities is often "I don't feel like a real X person, because my history makes me feel like an imposter"--and the decades of rocky ground for women coming from this exact background into communities of queer women and getting a decidedly mixed reception make this a decision that is rife with pitfalls for many of these folks.
I think "queer" and "fluid" are interesting in this context because both terms prioritize a certain vagueness--if I say I'm queer, you don't necessarily know much more about me than if I say I'm not straight; and if I say I'm fluid, you don't necessarily know much more about me than if I say I'm in a state of flux. But they're also very different, because "queer" owns a certain place within the broader community of people who ain't straight and cis, and "fluid" owns a certain place within the broader community of people who aren't sure they're part of the first community.
The relationship with men is not the point. The point is the relationship with other women under the LGBTQ umbrella: whether or not you're dating them (or trying to), are you entitled to belonging? Do you think you can hold your status without challenge from other women? Because women will challenge this, and if you know you're not a lesbian--or you didn't used to be, anyway--how do you stand against the concerns that you're just "experimenting", especially when you are just trying to take baby steps into a pool that feels full of women who have all got this figured out?
Is the pool of women who date women composed of lesbians and honorary lesbians? Who confers the honorary label? Who decides? It matters, because the more perceived rejection that someone has from the "real" queers when they're figuring themselves out, the more women will shy away from exploring those impulses that lunasol lays out so neatly.
posted by sciatrix at 3:23 PM on April 9, 2019 [31 favorites]
Speaking as someone who is not interested in men, who does identify as queer, and who routinely passes as lesbian day-to-day:
I don't think this is the whole story. There is a lot of trauma in communities of women who date or build households with other women about identification and words and who is allowed or encouraged to use what labels. Some of that trauma comes from the practice of non-consensually labeling women regardless of their stated identity, and ignoring, repeatedly forgetting, and undermining claimed identities in favor of the label the observer chooses to apply.
We use identity labels to communicate with each other, and particularly within the broader umbrella of women in the alphabet community, there are a lot of complexities to communicate. One of those complexities is often "I don't feel like a real X person, because my history makes me feel like an imposter"--and the decades of rocky ground for women coming from this exact background into communities of queer women and getting a decidedly mixed reception make this a decision that is rife with pitfalls for many of these folks.
I think "queer" and "fluid" are interesting in this context because both terms prioritize a certain vagueness--if I say I'm queer, you don't necessarily know much more about me than if I say I'm not straight; and if I say I'm fluid, you don't necessarily know much more about me than if I say I'm in a state of flux. But they're also very different, because "queer" owns a certain place within the broader community of people who ain't straight and cis, and "fluid" owns a certain place within the broader community of people who aren't sure they're part of the first community.
The relationship with men is not the point. The point is the relationship with other women under the LGBTQ umbrella: whether or not you're dating them (or trying to), are you entitled to belonging? Do you think you can hold your status without challenge from other women? Because women will challenge this, and if you know you're not a lesbian--or you didn't used to be, anyway--how do you stand against the concerns that you're just "experimenting", especially when you are just trying to take baby steps into a pool that feels full of women who have all got this figured out?
Is the pool of women who date women composed of lesbians and honorary lesbians? Who confers the honorary label? Who decides? It matters, because the more perceived rejection that someone has from the "real" queers when they're figuring themselves out, the more women will shy away from exploring those impulses that lunasol lays out so neatly.
posted by sciatrix at 3:23 PM on April 9, 2019 [31 favorites]
So I've lived through a version of this (at a much younger age), and I identity as queer specifically BECAUSE I've found my sexuality to be fluid again - i.e. after about 4 years of losing interest in men, which also included a breakup with my then-boyfriend, I've become interested in some men again but they're usually some flavour queer and people I'm close to already. Which is just as confusing!! And yeah, I'm not sure "bisexuality" works for me, because there's so many Conditions Apply on who I end up being attracted to. Also, I separate out romance and sex, so that plays into the Conditions Apply part for me.
Gender plays into it too - I've been embracing more of my genderqueer non-binariness in the past couple of years, which in part means my attraction to men currently still feels very queer. Maybe. I dunno.
It's weird! And it feels like a betrayal either which way! It's a moot point for me now because I'm single, but I'm still very active in LGBTQIA activism and arts world so I'm not using "fluid" to disavow my connections to this history. Rather, I've had people tell me I'm not really queer because I'm attracted to men occasionally, or they assume "fluid" means "straight person pretending", so if anything the gate's being closed from within.
posted by divabat at 3:36 PM on April 9, 2019 [11 favorites]
Gender plays into it too - I've been embracing more of my genderqueer non-binariness in the past couple of years, which in part means my attraction to men currently still feels very queer. Maybe. I dunno.
It's weird! And it feels like a betrayal either which way! It's a moot point for me now because I'm single, but I'm still very active in LGBTQIA activism and arts world so I'm not using "fluid" to disavow my connections to this history. Rather, I've had people tell me I'm not really queer because I'm attracted to men occasionally, or they assume "fluid" means "straight person pretending", so if anything the gate's being closed from within.
posted by divabat at 3:36 PM on April 9, 2019 [11 favorites]
"I date people of all genders but that doesn't make me queer or pansexual or bisexual or anything, I just love the people I love!!!!"
I remember back in the day reading a lot of personal ads on like PlanetOut that said "I'm just a guy who happens to like guys!" and it always made me cross. Oh hey funny story I was walking home and I liked men, just sorta happened! It comes in the same box as "being gay doesn't define me" which, if nobody immediately before this statement said "hey, tell me the gay opinion on [thing]," always sets off my self-hatred detector.
posted by Smearcase at 3:43 PM on April 9, 2019 [8 favorites]
I remember back in the day reading a lot of personal ads on like PlanetOut that said "I'm just a guy who happens to like guys!" and it always made me cross. Oh hey funny story I was walking home and I liked men, just sorta happened! It comes in the same box as "being gay doesn't define me" which, if nobody immediately before this statement said "hey, tell me the gay opinion on [thing]," always sets off my self-hatred detector.
posted by Smearcase at 3:43 PM on April 9, 2019 [8 favorites]
Is the pool of women who date women composed of lesbians and honorary lesbians? Who confers the honorary label? Who decides? It matters, because the more perceived rejection that someone has from the "real" queers when they're figuring themselves out, the more women will shy away from exploring those impulses that lunasol lays out so neatly.
I spent a long time being not Absolutely Sure I was into women, and since I had absorbed the idea that women who like women don't like women who are 'experimenting,' I sort of had this feeling like it would be wrong or appropriative or something to even consider the idea that I might not be straight. It's weird to think about now. I wonder how many other people are stuck in that same mindset?
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:07 PM on April 9, 2019 [22 favorites]
I spent a long time being not Absolutely Sure I was into women, and since I had absorbed the idea that women who like women don't like women who are 'experimenting,' I sort of had this feeling like it would be wrong or appropriative or something to even consider the idea that I might not be straight. It's weird to think about now. I wonder how many other people are stuck in that same mindset?
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:07 PM on April 9, 2019 [22 favorites]
I sort of had this feeling like it would be wrong or appropriative or something to even consider the idea that I might not be straight.
Yes, this is absolutely a feeling lots of people have. Appropriation is absolutely an accusation that gets made. These are the cornerstones of erasure, along with "greedy", "just trying to get attention", and then the double backflip accusation of "enjoying hetero privilege."
And yet everybody's still getting mad that women recalibrating their own assumptions of straightness later in life are using the wrong words, or not using the right words, or using words they aren't "allowed" because they don't have the exact correct qualifications, when all those words are a huge fucking minefield.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:22 PM on April 9, 2019 [23 favorites]
Yes, this is absolutely a feeling lots of people have. Appropriation is absolutely an accusation that gets made. These are the cornerstones of erasure, along with "greedy", "just trying to get attention", and then the double backflip accusation of "enjoying hetero privilege."
And yet everybody's still getting mad that women recalibrating their own assumptions of straightness later in life are using the wrong words, or not using the right words, or using words they aren't "allowed" because they don't have the exact correct qualifications, when all those words are a huge fucking minefield.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:22 PM on April 9, 2019 [23 favorites]
I spent a long time being not Absolutely Sure I was into women, and since I had absorbed the idea that women who like women don't like women who are 'experimenting,' I sort of had this feeling like it would be wrong or appropriative or something to even consider the idea that I might not be straight. It's weird to think about now.
Me too. Add onto the idea that "everyone is bisexual"(which I guess is another version of the fluidity narrative), and I had years of this kind of uncertainty.
And how fucked is it to feel like you're appropriating your own identity?
I have come to think of fluidity less in terms of the idea that sexual identity or orientation changes, but that our understanding of ourselves and the ways we relate to others changes.
posted by lunasol at 4:24 PM on April 9, 2019 [19 favorites]
Me too. Add onto the idea that "everyone is bisexual"(which I guess is another version of the fluidity narrative), and I had years of this kind of uncertainty.
And how fucked is it to feel like you're appropriating your own identity?
I have come to think of fluidity less in terms of the idea that sexual identity or orientation changes, but that our understanding of ourselves and the ways we relate to others changes.
posted by lunasol at 4:24 PM on April 9, 2019 [19 favorites]
It makes perfect sense to me. People who are married to guys may or may not have an increased lifespan. Frequently being married to a guy makes you less happy than if you are single or in a relationship with a woman.
But you can't have kids without a testicles/uterus pairing. So your biological drive sends you after guys for your prime child bearing years, and soon as that is over, your biological drive sends you after a partner who is likely to improve your life with the typically female ability at emotional labour, nurturing etc.
Sounds like a sound plan biologically. Being elderly with a female partner would have the additional advantage of improving your chances of being the first one feeble, and having a partner still able to look after you. Even if you both became feeble with old age at the same rate it would be better than being paired with a man who will probably become feeble well before you.
posted by Jane the Brown at 6:35 PM on April 9, 2019 [1 favorite]
But you can't have kids without a testicles/uterus pairing. So your biological drive sends you after guys for your prime child bearing years, and soon as that is over, your biological drive sends you after a partner who is likely to improve your life with the typically female ability at emotional labour, nurturing etc.
Sounds like a sound plan biologically. Being elderly with a female partner would have the additional advantage of improving your chances of being the first one feeble, and having a partner still able to look after you. Even if you both became feeble with old age at the same rate it would be better than being paired with a man who will probably become feeble well before you.
posted by Jane the Brown at 6:35 PM on April 9, 2019 [1 favorite]
I identify as straight. Well, I mean, I don’t, but if asked, that would be the radio button I’d push, but I don’t go around advertising that I’m on team penisvulva. But not too long ago I was at a drag show with some friends, and the presenter was a lovely, quite queer, woman who called herself a dyke, and I was attracted to her. Like, if I were not in a happily 23 year monogamist relationship, I would have asked her out. We had the best table, and she sat with us between her bits, and she was funny and charming, and smart, and everything I like in a person. So, I think for some people, the gender of the other person may be secondary to The Person themselves. Or perhaps menopause has engendered fluidity, I dunno. I haven’t been attracted to any other women, and I am friends with some drop dead gorgeous brilliant women.
But, as an older lady, were something, God’s forbid, happen to end my marriage, I would be more comfortable in the company of other women, rather than seeking a new male partner. I mean, not for nothing, but men, at least in my life, are so much work. So much.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:39 PM on April 9, 2019 [9 favorites]
But, as an older lady, were something, God’s forbid, happen to end my marriage, I would be more comfortable in the company of other women, rather than seeking a new male partner. I mean, not for nothing, but men, at least in my life, are so much work. So much.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:39 PM on April 9, 2019 [9 favorites]
As with most things, our models of sexuality are just models - even the very personal ones we make of our own sexuality. Simplifying things down enough that we can get our minds around them and engage with them. They're never going to grasp the whole of the reality. I remind myself of that whenever I read one of these articles.
posted by AdamCSnider at 7:52 PM on April 9, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by AdamCSnider at 7:52 PM on April 9, 2019 [3 favorites]
I spent a long time being not Absolutely Sure I was into women, and since I had absorbed the idea that women who like women don't like women who are 'experimenting,' I sort of had this feeling like it would be wrong or appropriative or something to even consider the idea that I might not be straight. It's weird to think about now. I wonder how many other people are stuck in that same mindset?
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:07 PM on April 9
Wow, this so perfectly encapsulates where I am at the moment - hetero-married, mother, not sure about where I fit in the sexuality pantheon. Thank you for putting those internal conflicts so clearly showniz_liz. If my current relationship came to an end I would not be looking for another male partner... but I don't want him to go under a bus and it just leaves me in a very confusing place.
posted by chiquitita at 10:29 PM on April 9, 2019 [11 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:07 PM on April 9
Wow, this so perfectly encapsulates where I am at the moment - hetero-married, mother, not sure about where I fit in the sexuality pantheon. Thank you for putting those internal conflicts so clearly showniz_liz. If my current relationship came to an end I would not be looking for another male partner... but I don't want him to go under a bus and it just leaves me in a very confusing place.
posted by chiquitita at 10:29 PM on April 9, 2019 [11 favorites]
It doesn't help that any language you choose to describe sexuality these days is going to offend someone. There's a lot of language policing going on.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 5:34 AM on April 10, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 5:34 AM on April 10, 2019 [7 favorites]
So a couple of random things because I'm late to the thread and don't need to repeat any of the great stuff other people have said, but it's also early in the morning for me.
When you're a woman and you live in a heterosexist society, people tell you over and over to "give men a chance" and that "you just haven't met the right one!" When you give one a chance and find that you hate everything about dealing with men, you get told not to write all men off because of one bad experience, and again that "you just haven't met the right one." This will repeat indefinitely. Then when women take a while to figure out that they need to do something else to be happy and get the courage up to change things in their lives, they get dismissed as "fluid" without regard to what they call themselves, or what pressures they're under to identify in certain ways, or the mental effects of having lived so long thinking they were straight and absorbing straight norms.
With regard to labels, my experience of people whining about why do we have to have labels??? is 100% people who have never struggled to be seen or to see people like themselves, who have never been told that who they are isn't real, isn't permitted.
Also,
men who think that a woman should want to have sex with a woman as a kind of party trick, a favor to men, for this reason.
I have just cut two such people (couple) out of my life and am feeling really good about it.
posted by bile and syntax at 6:02 AM on April 10, 2019 [20 favorites]
When you're a woman and you live in a heterosexist society, people tell you over and over to "give men a chance" and that "you just haven't met the right one!" When you give one a chance and find that you hate everything about dealing with men, you get told not to write all men off because of one bad experience, and again that "you just haven't met the right one." This will repeat indefinitely. Then when women take a while to figure out that they need to do something else to be happy and get the courage up to change things in their lives, they get dismissed as "fluid" without regard to what they call themselves, or what pressures they're under to identify in certain ways, or the mental effects of having lived so long thinking they were straight and absorbing straight norms.
With regard to labels, my experience of people whining about why do we have to have labels??? is 100% people who have never struggled to be seen or to see people like themselves, who have never been told that who they are isn't real, isn't permitted.
Also,
men who think that a woman should want to have sex with a woman as a kind of party trick, a favor to men, for this reason.
I have just cut two such people (couple) out of my life and am feeling really good about it.
posted by bile and syntax at 6:02 AM on April 10, 2019 [20 favorites]
Yes, bike and syntax, if I could go back in time and tell young winna one thing it would be that not wanting anything to do with men romantically is fine and I shouldn’t allow people to force me into dating men to try to seem normal.
I’m just so glad young women now are hearing that message more than I did when I was young.
posted by winna at 7:20 AM on April 10, 2019 [6 favorites]
I’m just so glad young women now are hearing that message more than I did when I was young.
posted by winna at 7:20 AM on April 10, 2019 [6 favorites]
But, as an older lady, were something, God’s forbid, happen to end my marriage, I would be more comfortable in the company of other women, rather than seeking a new male partner. I mean, not for nothing, but men, at least in my life, are so much work. So much.
This reminds my mom's casual off the cuff remark about how the widows in her predominantly senior condo complex were so much happier than everyone else.
posted by srboisvert at 7:30 AM on April 10, 2019 [3 favorites]
This reminds my mom's casual off the cuff remark about how the widows in her predominantly senior condo complex were so much happier than everyone else.
posted by srboisvert at 7:30 AM on April 10, 2019 [3 favorites]
Calling a woman "queer" or "fluid" when she's a lesbian does only one thing - allows the audience to believe she's interested in men.Speaking as someone who is not interested in men, who does identify as queer...
Then I obviously wasn't talking about you. I specifically said calling lesbians queer. You are not a lesbian. My story isn't about you, and I feel like you're talking over me, as a lesbian, about lesbian issues.
posted by FirstMateKate at 7:43 AM on April 10, 2019 [3 favorites]
Then when women take a while to figure out that they need to do something else to be happy and get the courage up to change things in their lives, they get dismissed as "fluid" without regard to what they call themselves, or what pressures they're under to identify in certain ways, or the mental effects of having lived so long thinking they were straight and absorbing straight norms.
I mean, but that too is erasure of some people's experiences.
I've always enjoyed flirting with men and dating men. I have enjoyed certain aspects of sex with men. I didn't date men because I was pressured to do so, I dated men because I found it enjoyable to date men. I identify as heterosexual. I am married to a man.
But the thing I've never liked about being in relationships with men isn't the dating or the physicality of their bodies, but rather the shittiness of their socialization. I am tired of being the Most Responsible One. I am tired of their lack of emotional labor. I am tired of the way I am always pushed to do all the work of maintaining a household and tired of the way that I have to endlessly make them feel like the smartest and best and criticize them in just the right way so that they don't feel their masculinity is threatened. It's fucking exhausting. It has always been exhausting, but I've felt the benefits were worth the tradeoffs. It has become impossibly exhausting in the age of Trump.
If my husband were hit by a bus tomorrow, I would never be in a long term relationship with a man again. If for some reason I felt I needed to be in a long term relationship, I would probably try to engage with women. I'm not currently sexually attracted to them, but also - the culmination of my lived experiences has taught me that I probably could be if I worked on it, or at least enough to get by.
When someone has unhealthy relationship patterns in Ask - attracted to 'bad boys' or whatever - we tell them "go ahead and date people that you don't feel that overwhelming first attraction to, date them a few times, see how you feel after. Your attraction patterns are messed up, try to reset them." I don't know why that kindness isn't extended to women who are exploring dating nonmen as well. And it's straight up not - there is so much snideness and mockery of women who are 'experimenting'.
posted by corb at 7:47 AM on April 10, 2019 [8 favorites]
I mean, but that too is erasure of some people's experiences.
I've always enjoyed flirting with men and dating men. I have enjoyed certain aspects of sex with men. I didn't date men because I was pressured to do so, I dated men because I found it enjoyable to date men. I identify as heterosexual. I am married to a man.
But the thing I've never liked about being in relationships with men isn't the dating or the physicality of their bodies, but rather the shittiness of their socialization. I am tired of being the Most Responsible One. I am tired of their lack of emotional labor. I am tired of the way I am always pushed to do all the work of maintaining a household and tired of the way that I have to endlessly make them feel like the smartest and best and criticize them in just the right way so that they don't feel their masculinity is threatened. It's fucking exhausting. It has always been exhausting, but I've felt the benefits were worth the tradeoffs. It has become impossibly exhausting in the age of Trump.
If my husband were hit by a bus tomorrow, I would never be in a long term relationship with a man again. If for some reason I felt I needed to be in a long term relationship, I would probably try to engage with women. I'm not currently sexually attracted to them, but also - the culmination of my lived experiences has taught me that I probably could be if I worked on it, or at least enough to get by.
When someone has unhealthy relationship patterns in Ask - attracted to 'bad boys' or whatever - we tell them "go ahead and date people that you don't feel that overwhelming first attraction to, date them a few times, see how you feel after. Your attraction patterns are messed up, try to reset them." I don't know why that kindness isn't extended to women who are exploring dating nonmen as well. And it's straight up not - there is so much snideness and mockery of women who are 'experimenting'.
posted by corb at 7:47 AM on April 10, 2019 [8 favorites]
Corb, I'm talking about women who are some flavor of attracted to women. I am not talking about straight women at all, and thus not talking about your experience.
posted by bile and syntax at 7:52 AM on April 10, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by bile and syntax at 7:52 AM on April 10, 2019 [9 favorites]
Mod note: Gonna just step in here to say -- folks if you aren't a woman who's into women, for whatever values of 'into' make sense for you, then consider stepping back from this. It's not actually a thread about men.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:55 AM on April 10, 2019 [13 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:55 AM on April 10, 2019 [13 favorites]
I don’t want to ask for labor here, and I try hard to stay on top of things, but my lesbian friends use lesbian and queer interchangeably, as do my homosexual friends. But in this conversation, the terms are being used exclusively from one another. Can you point me towards sources that are trustworthy that can explain the difference, or if not too much trouble, can anyone who is making the distinction, explain it?
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 8:52 AM on April 10, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 8:52 AM on April 10, 2019 [2 favorites]
Part of what I'm reacting to, however, is the tendency to assign women to particular categories without necessarily asking and clarifying what terms they do and don't prefer. "Is a lesbian" is something that sounds obvious and clean cut, but which isn't always--for example, bi women in relationships with women are often labeled lesbians casually. I am often casually labeled as a lesbian, and when I say I pass as lesbian, I mean that it's just fucking easier to let people call me what they want rather than fighting that battle every time.
What are the boundaries of the lesbian community? If I do something noteworthy of public approval, that community will certainly claim me, whether like it or not; if I do something that incurs community disapproval, I will be labeled as a straight interloper stealing resources.
Well, I'm too butch, but that certainly happens to femme women. I'm more likely to be accused of betrayal.
I will ask again: is the community of women who are queer, who form relationships with one another, a community of lesbians and honorary lesbians, or is it more complex than that? Who is part of that community? What do we call it? WLW is popular in some circles, but there is a real tendency among lesbian and gay communities to casually elide terms like "GLBTQ" and "wlw" to mentally mean "gay/lesbian and people who are gay/lesbian enough."
These are actual questions I'm asking, fwiw, not rhetorical ones. If I'm talking over lesbian issues, what do we call the conversations that belong to women like me: women who do in fact walk the walk, thank you, who experience none of the privileges of heteronormativity, but whose lived realities may or may not line up with the easy moniker of lesbian?
Because I tell you, in these discussions I often feel like Schroedinger's queer, where whether or not my perspective is welcome in conversations of WLW is predicated on whether I toe some imaginary lesbian party line, and where people I speak with become increasingly frustrated when I'm not dismissable as "basically straight, when you get down to it, even if she might have chosen differently, once" or easily swallowed as "a lesbian at the end of the day."
Neither fish nor flesh nor good red hen... and you wonder why queer might be an attractive word for a woman who does not date men in stark preference to "lesbian?"
posted by sciatrix at 9:08 AM on April 10, 2019 [10 favorites]
What are the boundaries of the lesbian community? If I do something noteworthy of public approval, that community will certainly claim me, whether like it or not; if I do something that incurs community disapproval, I will be labeled as a straight interloper stealing resources.
Well, I'm too butch, but that certainly happens to femme women. I'm more likely to be accused of betrayal.
I will ask again: is the community of women who are queer, who form relationships with one another, a community of lesbians and honorary lesbians, or is it more complex than that? Who is part of that community? What do we call it? WLW is popular in some circles, but there is a real tendency among lesbian and gay communities to casually elide terms like "GLBTQ" and "wlw" to mentally mean "gay/lesbian and people who are gay/lesbian enough."
These are actual questions I'm asking, fwiw, not rhetorical ones. If I'm talking over lesbian issues, what do we call the conversations that belong to women like me: women who do in fact walk the walk, thank you, who experience none of the privileges of heteronormativity, but whose lived realities may or may not line up with the easy moniker of lesbian?
Because I tell you, in these discussions I often feel like Schroedinger's queer, where whether or not my perspective is welcome in conversations of WLW is predicated on whether I toe some imaginary lesbian party line, and where people I speak with become increasingly frustrated when I'm not dismissable as "basically straight, when you get down to it, even if she might have chosen differently, once" or easily swallowed as "a lesbian at the end of the day."
Neither fish nor flesh nor good red hen... and you wonder why queer might be an attractive word for a woman who does not date men in stark preference to "lesbian?"
posted by sciatrix at 9:08 AM on April 10, 2019 [10 favorites]
SecretAgentSockpuppet, I don't consider asking for clarification labor. I'm here to discuss these things, this is a discussion forum (or works as one), and this is the right place to be asking questions.
The difference is very similar to the difference between using POC or black when describing people, but with more added. All black people are people of color. But not all people of color are black. Lesbianism is a specific form of "queerness". There are situations, problems, experiences, etc that are specific to lesbians. When we're talking about those problems it does the narrative a disservice to use "lgbt" or "queer". That goes for almost any specific sexuality. Lesbians don't face biphobia, so talking about opressive "pick a side" language and referring to it as experienced by "lgbt people" is a false narrative, as neither the L, G, or T experience it. Thats part of it.
The other part is that lesbianism is being erased. If you talk to lesbians who either are young, or knew they were gay when they were young, there's a very common and very sad occurrence that they view lesbianism as an inherently sexual identity. Most likely their first experience with the word is tied to porn. This is obviously damaging, and alienating for stone lesbians, ace lesbians, bambi lesbians, etc. To them, lesbian is a dirty word. The media prefers branding women as "Queer", even when they're lesbian. Some of the more sensitive straight/mainsteam publications will use "gay", but will not use lesbian.
Brandi Carlisle was the first lesbian that came to mind, so I searched her to provide you with an example. Here's the NY Times article where she comes out, and refers to herself as a lesbian. Here's Out, calling her a lesbian.
La-Times: "gay"
NPR: "gay"
Gay Star News: "LGBTI stars"
An, in addition to all that, not everyone likes being called queer because it is a reclaimed slur. Obviously that's everyone's personal opinions.
posted by FirstMateKate at 9:22 AM on April 10, 2019 [7 favorites]
The difference is very similar to the difference between using POC or black when describing people, but with more added. All black people are people of color. But not all people of color are black. Lesbianism is a specific form of "queerness". There are situations, problems, experiences, etc that are specific to lesbians. When we're talking about those problems it does the narrative a disservice to use "lgbt" or "queer". That goes for almost any specific sexuality. Lesbians don't face biphobia, so talking about opressive "pick a side" language and referring to it as experienced by "lgbt people" is a false narrative, as neither the L, G, or T experience it. Thats part of it.
The other part is that lesbianism is being erased. If you talk to lesbians who either are young, or knew they were gay when they were young, there's a very common and very sad occurrence that they view lesbianism as an inherently sexual identity. Most likely their first experience with the word is tied to porn. This is obviously damaging, and alienating for stone lesbians, ace lesbians, bambi lesbians, etc. To them, lesbian is a dirty word. The media prefers branding women as "Queer", even when they're lesbian. Some of the more sensitive straight/mainsteam publications will use "gay", but will not use lesbian.
Brandi Carlisle was the first lesbian that came to mind, so I searched her to provide you with an example. Here's the NY Times article where she comes out, and refers to herself as a lesbian. Here's Out, calling her a lesbian.
La-Times: "gay"
NPR: "gay"
Gay Star News: "LGBTI stars"
An, in addition to all that, not everyone likes being called queer because it is a reclaimed slur. Obviously that's everyone's personal opinions.
posted by FirstMateKate at 9:22 AM on April 10, 2019 [7 favorites]
If I'm talking over lesbian issues, what do we call the conversations that belong to women like me: women who do in fact walk the walk, thank you, who experience none of the privileges of heteronormativity, but whose lived realities may or may not line up with the easy moniker of lesbian?
You call it whatever you want, because its your conversation and your stories.
Sciatrix, I'm just flat out not interested in talking to you. Every time I talk about lesbian issues you make the conversation about yourself and accuse me of wild accusations that I never say. You're simultaneously getting mad at me for saying my conversations about lesbians don't apply to you, who doesn't identify as a lesbian, while also accusing me of someone who calls queer women lesbians "when they're good enough". Lesbians are allowed to talk about themselves without including you. Talk to other queer women in here that have the same experiences as you, instead of trying to force me to validate you and include you in things that you yourself say do not apply to you.
posted by FirstMateKate at 9:34 AM on April 10, 2019 [3 favorites]
You call it whatever you want, because its your conversation and your stories.
Sciatrix, I'm just flat out not interested in talking to you. Every time I talk about lesbian issues you make the conversation about yourself and accuse me of wild accusations that I never say. You're simultaneously getting mad at me for saying my conversations about lesbians don't apply to you, who doesn't identify as a lesbian, while also accusing me of someone who calls queer women lesbians "when they're good enough". Lesbians are allowed to talk about themselves without including you. Talk to other queer women in here that have the same experiences as you, instead of trying to force me to validate you and include you in things that you yourself say do not apply to you.
posted by FirstMateKate at 9:34 AM on April 10, 2019 [3 favorites]
I'll also add that sometimes it's about what terminology you use in what circumstances, and that can be, well, fluid.
Personal example: If I'm trying to be rigorously specific about my sexual orientation for, say, a research study about sexual orientation, I would select "bisexual." (Or, ideally, given multiple choice options, bisexual AND pansexual AND queer.) I want to be as specific and helpful as possible for that purpose. But in casual everyday life talking with my friends who are mostly some flavor of queer, I'm going to call myself queer because that's my personal favorite descriptor for a variety of reasons. But if I'm talking with, say, straight coworkers or other people with whom I don't want to get into a whole THING about queer-as-reclaimed-slur, I'm probably going to call myself bisexual. Definitely not pansexual, because if I don't think you can handle the word "queer," I definitely don't think we can have a nuanced discussion about my thoughts on bi vs. pan as a descriptor.
But also! I will cheerfully and casually, in queer spaces, sling around references to myself as gay on occasion with people who know perfect well that I'm bisexual and using gay as shorthand in a particular context. But I would never ever call myself lesbian or WLW in any circumstance; it's very clear to me that those are terms Not For Me, as a queer woman in a long-term relationship with a queer man.
I know a lot of other people who do the same sort of - code switching, perhaps, if that's the appropriate term here? - depending on whether they're in straight space, queer space, bi-specific space, etc. Which is to say that there probably just isn't one solid answer you can get on how people use terms like "queer."
Sorry about that! We're a confusing bunch sometimes. But hell, if stuff like "fluid" is going to be used in weird ways that feel like erasure, we're not above also using terms ourselves in ways that help us move fluidly between spaces to minimize friction.
posted by Stacey at 9:38 AM on April 10, 2019 [14 favorites]
Personal example: If I'm trying to be rigorously specific about my sexual orientation for, say, a research study about sexual orientation, I would select "bisexual." (Or, ideally, given multiple choice options, bisexual AND pansexual AND queer.) I want to be as specific and helpful as possible for that purpose. But in casual everyday life talking with my friends who are mostly some flavor of queer, I'm going to call myself queer because that's my personal favorite descriptor for a variety of reasons. But if I'm talking with, say, straight coworkers or other people with whom I don't want to get into a whole THING about queer-as-reclaimed-slur, I'm probably going to call myself bisexual. Definitely not pansexual, because if I don't think you can handle the word "queer," I definitely don't think we can have a nuanced discussion about my thoughts on bi vs. pan as a descriptor.
But also! I will cheerfully and casually, in queer spaces, sling around references to myself as gay on occasion with people who know perfect well that I'm bisexual and using gay as shorthand in a particular context. But I would never ever call myself lesbian or WLW in any circumstance; it's very clear to me that those are terms Not For Me, as a queer woman in a long-term relationship with a queer man.
I know a lot of other people who do the same sort of - code switching, perhaps, if that's the appropriate term here? - depending on whether they're in straight space, queer space, bi-specific space, etc. Which is to say that there probably just isn't one solid answer you can get on how people use terms like "queer."
Sorry about that! We're a confusing bunch sometimes. But hell, if stuff like "fluid" is going to be used in weird ways that feel like erasure, we're not above also using terms ourselves in ways that help us move fluidly between spaces to minimize friction.
posted by Stacey at 9:38 AM on April 10, 2019 [14 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted. Folks, I know that the terminology questions are heavily weighted for many people, but this needs to not become personal about other posters. Let's try to steer back toward talking about this article.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:37 AM on April 10, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:37 AM on April 10, 2019 [1 favorite]
With regard to labels, my experience of people whining about why do we have to have labels??? is 100% people who have never struggled to be seen or to see people like themselves, who have never been told that who they are isn't real, isn't permitted.
Yup! When I was figuring myself out, I read through some old AskMes from people who were going through this process, and it was amazing how many people were like "don't worry about labels! Just do what you want!" I had a brief period of wondering if I was making too big a deal over it - and then I realized that most of the time, people who say that are primarily straight-identified. Not all, but most. And not to dismiss those folks' experiences, but it also feels pretty irrelevant from the experience of someone who only or primarily wants to be with people of the same gender, and has probably had some significant struggles over this.
I think people sometimes treat LGBTQ+ people who have been alive since the 80s as though we all just sprung up fully formed in 2019 and now being gay isn't a big deal so why is it an issue?!? But we were not raised in today's world and today's world has not been around for all that long.
This is something I've had to explain to several straight friends. It's weird, I mean, they grew up in the same world I did, we're around the same age, but we live in a progressive bubble and for a lot of them, it's just a completely settled issue that LGBTQ people are equal and accepted. But you know, the effects of growing up in a world that either ignores LGBTQ people or mocks/hates/disdains them don't just go away.
posted by lunasol at 10:38 AM on April 10, 2019 [11 favorites]
Yup! When I was figuring myself out, I read through some old AskMes from people who were going through this process, and it was amazing how many people were like "don't worry about labels! Just do what you want!" I had a brief period of wondering if I was making too big a deal over it - and then I realized that most of the time, people who say that are primarily straight-identified. Not all, but most. And not to dismiss those folks' experiences, but it also feels pretty irrelevant from the experience of someone who only or primarily wants to be with people of the same gender, and has probably had some significant struggles over this.
I think people sometimes treat LGBTQ+ people who have been alive since the 80s as though we all just sprung up fully formed in 2019 and now being gay isn't a big deal so why is it an issue?!? But we were not raised in today's world and today's world has not been around for all that long.
This is something I've had to explain to several straight friends. It's weird, I mean, they grew up in the same world I did, we're around the same age, but we live in a progressive bubble and for a lot of them, it's just a completely settled issue that LGBTQ people are equal and accepted. But you know, the effects of growing up in a world that either ignores LGBTQ people or mocks/hates/disdains them don't just go away.
posted by lunasol at 10:38 AM on April 10, 2019 [11 favorites]
This is something I've had to explain to several straight friends. It's weird, I mean, they grew up in the same world I did, we're around the same age, but we live in a progressive bubble and for a lot of them, it's just a completely settled issue that LGBTQ people are equal and accepted. But you know, the effects of growing up in a world that either ignores LGBTQ people or mocks/hates/disdains them don't just go away.
People with relative privilege typically have the luxury of seeing bias as a matter of personal viewpoints. Straight cis people who want to think they have no issues with us will often go on about how this is soooooo obvious and who's homophobic anyway, without any acknowledgment that it's not just about personal views but about institutionalized discrimination.
posted by bile and syntax at 11:01 AM on April 10, 2019 [7 favorites]
People with relative privilege typically have the luxury of seeing bias as a matter of personal viewpoints. Straight cis people who want to think they have no issues with us will often go on about how this is soooooo obvious and who's homophobic anyway, without any acknowledgment that it's not just about personal views but about institutionalized discrimination.
posted by bile and syntax at 11:01 AM on April 10, 2019 [7 favorites]
If my husband were hit by a bus tomorrow, I would never be in a long term relationship with a man again. If for some reason I felt I needed to be in a long term relationship, I would probably try to engage with women. I'm not currently sexually attracted to them, but also - the culmination of my lived experiences has taught me that I probably could be if I worked on it, or at least enough to get by.
I have to say, my last relationship was with a woman like this--someone in her thirties who had never dated or felt attraction to women before but who was sick of men and male socialization and figured she could sort of 'work on' being attracted to women. And it's a pretty horrible experience being with someone who has to 'work on' being attracted to you.
As a queer woman, I find a lot of the comments from straight women in this thread about how they wish they were attracted to women or how they would work on it if their straight relationships ended to be pretty invalidating. Women are great but being queer is actually kind of hard and it sucks that so many straight women seem to view the way I love and have relationships as a kind of fun, fantasy escape from the demands of patriarchy.
posted by armadillo1224 at 11:16 AM on April 10, 2019 [27 favorites]
I have to say, my last relationship was with a woman like this--someone in her thirties who had never dated or felt attraction to women before but who was sick of men and male socialization and figured she could sort of 'work on' being attracted to women. And it's a pretty horrible experience being with someone who has to 'work on' being attracted to you.
As a queer woman, I find a lot of the comments from straight women in this thread about how they wish they were attracted to women or how they would work on it if their straight relationships ended to be pretty invalidating. Women are great but being queer is actually kind of hard and it sucks that so many straight women seem to view the way I love and have relationships as a kind of fun, fantasy escape from the demands of patriarchy.
posted by armadillo1224 at 11:16 AM on April 10, 2019 [27 favorites]
For the longest time I self-identified as as "not-straight." I knew I wasn't exclusively attracted to cis-men, although at that point I wasn't familiar or comfortable using terms like cisgender or transgender. I had crushes on boys, but I also faked a lot of crushes on boys because I felt abnormal and thought if I pretended to have a crush I'd fit in with my peers more. In retrospect, I think I had crushes on girls, but it wasn't until I was firmly in my early twenties and had a huge, undeniable, multi-year, emotional and sexual crush on a lesbian that I felt okay (although, not comfortable) claiming the words bisexual and queer.
The emergence of "fluidity" might be a consequence of changing hormones, our political landscape, or our changing culture. Or something else. Or all or some of the above. I'm eager to hear more stories about from women who made drastic life-changes due to a "switch" in sexual preferences--like some of the folks above I'm left wanting more from this article. I'm particularly eager to read the memoir Molly Wizenberg is working on. I've listened to her podcast, Spilled Milk, for years. I don't follow her other work as much but I remember reading her 2016 blogpost when she talked about her "switch" in sexual identity and how it impacted her and her family. I suspect her new memoir will talk a lot about that time in her life.
I'm also reminded of Unladylike's episode on lesbian bars. I believe the take home of the episode was that lesbian bars are dying, but queer spaces are thriving? I have really complicated feelings about that message that that I'm trying to unpack--I feel sad about the loss of lesbian bars, but I'm also not a lesbian, just a WLW. This is moving beyond the scope of the article, so I'll stop rambling, but I've enjoyed reading everyone's comments. Especially from lesbians and women who identified as queer long-before the emergence of "fluidity," if you will.
posted by lucy.jakobs at 11:24 AM on April 10, 2019 [7 favorites]
The emergence of "fluidity" might be a consequence of changing hormones, our political landscape, or our changing culture. Or something else. Or all or some of the above. I'm eager to hear more stories about from women who made drastic life-changes due to a "switch" in sexual preferences--like some of the folks above I'm left wanting more from this article. I'm particularly eager to read the memoir Molly Wizenberg is working on. I've listened to her podcast, Spilled Milk, for years. I don't follow her other work as much but I remember reading her 2016 blogpost when she talked about her "switch" in sexual identity and how it impacted her and her family. I suspect her new memoir will talk a lot about that time in her life.
I'm also reminded of Unladylike's episode on lesbian bars. I believe the take home of the episode was that lesbian bars are dying, but queer spaces are thriving? I have really complicated feelings about that message that that I'm trying to unpack--I feel sad about the loss of lesbian bars, but I'm also not a lesbian, just a WLW. This is moving beyond the scope of the article, so I'll stop rambling, but I've enjoyed reading everyone's comments. Especially from lesbians and women who identified as queer long-before the emergence of "fluidity," if you will.
posted by lucy.jakobs at 11:24 AM on April 10, 2019 [7 favorites]
I read through some old AskMes from people who were going through this process, and it was amazing how many people were like "don't worry about labels! Just do what you want!" I had a brief period of wondering if I was making too big a deal over it - and then I realized that most of the time, people who say that are primarily straight-identified.
Heh, my first metafilter question was like that and it was the first step for me in claiming my bisexuality, which in turn was the first step for me in claiming my queerness--which a decade later saw me coming out as trans masculine and genderqueer. It's difficult for me to articulate how one led to another, especially since I'd long been surrounded by queer people, gay and lesbians both, but my partnering with a man at the time (and sometimes even now) meant that I was intrinsically seen as an outsider. So instead I kept trying to identify with the straight women around me, which mostly just made me feel like a freaky failure. It wasn't until I started stepping into queer spaces that I better understood how I fit in terms of power dynamics and sexual dynamics. It unlocked so, so much about myself.
But also, like, it was scary? Because even as femaleness felt like a performance, by embracing this self that feels fundamentally gay I am letting go of whatever straight privilege I was wearing and now I have had to contend with, just, fundamental homophobia and that's not fun and now my spouse does too and that's extra weird since he still identifies as a straight cis man (whatever, I don't ID as a woman but his identification is up to him). And this is in exchange for, like, euphoria and the wonderful feeling of being seen!! Like queer people take me as queer for the first time in my life and I never had any idea how great that would feel!!
But I imagine it's even harder if these women don't particularly identify with queerness and then have to deal with homophobia on top of that. I think that a lot of this language is weaselly around the idea of bisexuality but it's also understandable because realizing there's a part of you that's pretty gay later in life is scary and a lot less safe than being "fluid."
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:36 PM on April 10, 2019 [8 favorites]
Heh, my first metafilter question was like that and it was the first step for me in claiming my bisexuality, which in turn was the first step for me in claiming my queerness--which a decade later saw me coming out as trans masculine and genderqueer. It's difficult for me to articulate how one led to another, especially since I'd long been surrounded by queer people, gay and lesbians both, but my partnering with a man at the time (and sometimes even now) meant that I was intrinsically seen as an outsider. So instead I kept trying to identify with the straight women around me, which mostly just made me feel like a freaky failure. It wasn't until I started stepping into queer spaces that I better understood how I fit in terms of power dynamics and sexual dynamics. It unlocked so, so much about myself.
But also, like, it was scary? Because even as femaleness felt like a performance, by embracing this self that feels fundamentally gay I am letting go of whatever straight privilege I was wearing and now I have had to contend with, just, fundamental homophobia and that's not fun and now my spouse does too and that's extra weird since he still identifies as a straight cis man (whatever, I don't ID as a woman but his identification is up to him). And this is in exchange for, like, euphoria and the wonderful feeling of being seen!! Like queer people take me as queer for the first time in my life and I never had any idea how great that would feel!!
But I imagine it's even harder if these women don't particularly identify with queerness and then have to deal with homophobia on top of that. I think that a lot of this language is weaselly around the idea of bisexuality but it's also understandable because realizing there's a part of you that's pretty gay later in life is scary and a lot less safe than being "fluid."
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:36 PM on April 10, 2019 [8 favorites]
I have to say, my last relationship was with a woman like this--someone in her thirties who had never dated or felt attraction to women before but who was sick of men and male socialization and figured she could sort of 'work on' being attracted to women. And it's a pretty horrible experience being with someone who has to 'work on' being attracted to you.
What's so hard is, this kind of message is a big reason it took me so long to acknowledge my own sexuality - I didn't want to be a "real" WLW's "horrible experience." As a broader community I don't know how we balance these things.
My hope is that as all varieties of non-straight/cis identities become more normalized, it will just be less of a Big Deal for people to examine their own sexualities and figure themselves out - I definitely envy people even 5-10 years younger than me who grew up in a different world.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:37 PM on April 10, 2019 [10 favorites]
What's so hard is, this kind of message is a big reason it took me so long to acknowledge my own sexuality - I didn't want to be a "real" WLW's "horrible experience." As a broader community I don't know how we balance these things.
My hope is that as all varieties of non-straight/cis identities become more normalized, it will just be less of a Big Deal for people to examine their own sexualities and figure themselves out - I definitely envy people even 5-10 years younger than me who grew up in a different world.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:37 PM on April 10, 2019 [10 favorites]
And this is in exchange for, like, euphoria and the wonderful feeling of being seen!! Like queer people take me as queer for the first time in my life and I never had any idea how great that would feel!!
This kind of thing is still happening to me and I've been out for like six years. Just the other day, I went out with some coworkers, including a new coworker who I correctly read as a lesbian, and by way of small talk she mentioned something about her girlfriend and I mentioned something about dating women and it was just SO NICE in a way that's hard to articulate. I've never had an out female coworker at the same level as me, and being able to have that conversation in the context of work rather than a dedicated Queer Space was a surprising delight.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:42 PM on April 10, 2019 [6 favorites]
This kind of thing is still happening to me and I've been out for like six years. Just the other day, I went out with some coworkers, including a new coworker who I correctly read as a lesbian, and by way of small talk she mentioned something about her girlfriend and I mentioned something about dating women and it was just SO NICE in a way that's hard to articulate. I've never had an out female coworker at the same level as me, and being able to have that conversation in the context of work rather than a dedicated Queer Space was a surprising delight.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:42 PM on April 10, 2019 [6 favorites]
What's so hard is, this kind of message is a big reason it took me so long to acknowledge my own sexuality - I didn't want to be a "real" WLW's "horrible experience."
Yeah no, no one is entitled to my emotional labor so that they can feel more comfortable acknowledging their sexuality, and yet it’s something people seem awfully comfortable demanding of lesbians in particular. That is everyone’s individual road to travel, and it is at no point ok to tell lesbians to shut up about their experiences so you can feel more comfortable just because there will always be more of you than there is of us. That is very much privilege in action.
Using someone else to figure out your attraction patterns isn’t a kindness to yourself (wtf), it’s a cruelty to others, and when it’s directed at lesbians it brings with it all the weight of misogyny and homophobia.
If you are not a lesbian, you cannot know what this is like. And I’m gonna go ahead and say late in life lesbians don’t really get it either. It is a lifetime of being perceived as fundamentally something to be used: for emotional labor and intimacy for women who then go back to their “real” relationships with men; for women who then tell you you were just an experiment. It’s a lifetime of never being real, never being seen, never being considered an actual person specifically in the areas in which people are most intimate and most vulnerable. It’s a lifetime of Lucy and the football, except the football is “you are a real person worthy of love.”
I mean, I haven’t just lost count of the number of women who have done this to me. I’ve lost count of just the ones who have announced it in bed. Like the last time this happened I was just happy she wasn’t actually engaged this time. In a lifetime of being involved with women, this is the default.
If you’re figuring yourself out, great. Just be honest with the women you go out with and let them decide if they want to take the risk of suffering another particular type of recurring trauma. Sometimes they will. Sometimes they’ll like you enough, sometimes that wound will have had enough time between re-openings to heal a bit. Be honest and direct and you can meet each other where you are and negotiate from there. And that includes being ok with it if someone is like, “you know, that’s not what I’m looking for right now.”
But when you act like our experiences don’t matter, like we should be available to you no matter our experiences have been, no matter how deep that wound already is, no matter how much it might cost us, you make it really really clear that you do, on a fundamental level, feel entitled to our pain and suffering and emotional labor in service of your self-discovery. That you don’t really see us, and you don’t really care to. That we will not really be safe with you. And it’s bullshit.
posted by schadenfrau at 1:41 PM on April 10, 2019 [17 favorites]
Yeah no, no one is entitled to my emotional labor so that they can feel more comfortable acknowledging their sexuality, and yet it’s something people seem awfully comfortable demanding of lesbians in particular. That is everyone’s individual road to travel, and it is at no point ok to tell lesbians to shut up about their experiences so you can feel more comfortable just because there will always be more of you than there is of us. That is very much privilege in action.
Using someone else to figure out your attraction patterns isn’t a kindness to yourself (wtf), it’s a cruelty to others, and when it’s directed at lesbians it brings with it all the weight of misogyny and homophobia.
If you are not a lesbian, you cannot know what this is like. And I’m gonna go ahead and say late in life lesbians don’t really get it either. It is a lifetime of being perceived as fundamentally something to be used: for emotional labor and intimacy for women who then go back to their “real” relationships with men; for women who then tell you you were just an experiment. It’s a lifetime of never being real, never being seen, never being considered an actual person specifically in the areas in which people are most intimate and most vulnerable. It’s a lifetime of Lucy and the football, except the football is “you are a real person worthy of love.”
I mean, I haven’t just lost count of the number of women who have done this to me. I’ve lost count of just the ones who have announced it in bed. Like the last time this happened I was just happy she wasn’t actually engaged this time. In a lifetime of being involved with women, this is the default.
If you’re figuring yourself out, great. Just be honest with the women you go out with and let them decide if they want to take the risk of suffering another particular type of recurring trauma. Sometimes they will. Sometimes they’ll like you enough, sometimes that wound will have had enough time between re-openings to heal a bit. Be honest and direct and you can meet each other where you are and negotiate from there. And that includes being ok with it if someone is like, “you know, that’s not what I’m looking for right now.”
But when you act like our experiences don’t matter, like we should be available to you no matter our experiences have been, no matter how deep that wound already is, no matter how much it might cost us, you make it really really clear that you do, on a fundamental level, feel entitled to our pain and suffering and emotional labor in service of your self-discovery. That you don’t really see us, and you don’t really care to. That we will not really be safe with you. And it’s bullshit.
posted by schadenfrau at 1:41 PM on April 10, 2019 [17 favorites]
Thank you for the eloquent writing and sharing here in this thread, and for introducing me to the concept of pansexuality.
posted by infini at 1:55 PM on April 10, 2019
posted by infini at 1:55 PM on April 10, 2019
Yeah no, no one is entitled to my emotional labor so that they can feel more comfortable acknowledging their sexuality, and yet it’s something people seem awfully comfortable demanding of lesbians in particular. That is everyone’s individual road to travel, and it is at no point ok to tell lesbians to shut up about their experiences so you can feel more comfortable just because there will always be more of you than there is of us. That is very much privilege in action.
I'm not saying anyone is entitled to anything. I don't think that at all. I'm just talking about how I felt about my own experiences.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:01 PM on April 10, 2019 [9 favorites]
I'm not saying anyone is entitled to anything. I don't think that at all. I'm just talking about how I felt about my own experiences.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:01 PM on April 10, 2019 [9 favorites]
I think one reason I took so long to claim my bisexual/queer identity is because I have many lesbian friends who had terrible experiences of being used by women and I didn't want to do that another person.
When I thought I had sorted myself out enough to be both kind and honest to new partners, a quick google before a date revealed that the woman I was trying to meet up with (and who had presented herself as a single, very unattached lesbian) had just gotten engaged to the woman she had been partnered with for some time and whose child she had adopted. It was then I realized that just because I had some of my shit figured out, didn't mean the person I was trying to meet up with did.
I'm reminded of overglow's comment from that MeFi post about the problematic Skirt Club article, which is pasted below:
"Yeah, I think these conversations are so tangled and difficult because there are multiple oppressive dynamics at work within and beyond the QUILTBAG communities. And they're all real and sometimes overlap and sometimes don't. Like, it's totally real and valid that bi women experience bi erasure and get the message that they're not queer enough and that's shitty and oppressive and it's also totally real and valid that lesbian women experience fetishization and being treated as an object or experiment and that's shitty and oppressive too. And it gets even more complex because, since oppression is traumatizing and often denied or downplayed, lots of folks end up being hyperaware of these potential dynamics. So even if someone's argument for lesbian space is actually totally bi aware and respectful, bi women can legit experience that argument as a trigger which like biologically reminds them of past oppressive experiences. And even if a pan woman and a bi man who are holding hands with each other are totally lesbian aware and respectful, someone else witnessing that moment might experience it as a painful reminder of heteronormativity, which can also be a trauma trigger.
I don't think there's any easy solution to this tangle and, for me, it feels a bit better just to acknowledge the complexity of what's true."
posted by lucy.jakobs at 2:02 PM on April 10, 2019 [17 favorites]
When I thought I had sorted myself out enough to be both kind and honest to new partners, a quick google before a date revealed that the woman I was trying to meet up with (and who had presented herself as a single, very unattached lesbian) had just gotten engaged to the woman she had been partnered with for some time and whose child she had adopted. It was then I realized that just because I had some of my shit figured out, didn't mean the person I was trying to meet up with did.
I'm reminded of overglow's comment from that MeFi post about the problematic Skirt Club article, which is pasted below:
"Yeah, I think these conversations are so tangled and difficult because there are multiple oppressive dynamics at work within and beyond the QUILTBAG communities. And they're all real and sometimes overlap and sometimes don't. Like, it's totally real and valid that bi women experience bi erasure and get the message that they're not queer enough and that's shitty and oppressive and it's also totally real and valid that lesbian women experience fetishization and being treated as an object or experiment and that's shitty and oppressive too. And it gets even more complex because, since oppression is traumatizing and often denied or downplayed, lots of folks end up being hyperaware of these potential dynamics. So even if someone's argument for lesbian space is actually totally bi aware and respectful, bi women can legit experience that argument as a trigger which like biologically reminds them of past oppressive experiences. And even if a pan woman and a bi man who are holding hands with each other are totally lesbian aware and respectful, someone else witnessing that moment might experience it as a painful reminder of heteronormativity, which can also be a trauma trigger.
I don't think there's any easy solution to this tangle and, for me, it feels a bit better just to acknowledge the complexity of what's true."
posted by lucy.jakobs at 2:02 PM on April 10, 2019 [17 favorites]
I am a very-late-to-the-party bisexual. I had a huge crush on a good friend in college, I wanted to jump her so hard, but I did not say a word because I knew it would most likely end our friendship. Then I did that thing where I assumed that was a one-off attraction and went and acted like a good heterosexual gal for nearly 40 years.
In a conversation with a straight male buddy recently I noticed that he spent a lot of time agonising over the challenge of deciding what he wanted in a partner. Apart from dating only women, I don't feel like I get the luxury of deciding what I want in any meaningful way.
No one owes me anything and never has. I am in my 60s and have little sexual experience with women, and I am skeptical that a woman will want to be sexual with me. Maybe? Either way, I don't plan on betting my happiness on any potential partner. I am just trying to keep working on becoming the best me I can possibly be and make efforts to meet new women. If, on future dates, I click with someone who clicks with me, awesome, and if not, that is life.
Some months back I joined a local Lesbian Bookclub here in Stockholm. I am the oldest person, then there's a woman in her 50s, then it drops to women in their 30s and 20s. It is so delightful to see these women once a month and discuss books we have read that are written by and about lesbians. It is so delightful to see young lesbians who are comfortable in their skins. When I visited my dad recently, I asked him if he knew that there were homosexual animals. Yes, he did. Then why, exactly, had he been so upset when I told him on my last visit that I was attracted to women? He said he didn't know.
It is impossible for me to regret the life I have had because many good things came out of it, plus one cannot change the past. I do regret not realising in my bones that I had a choice; honestly, it just did not occur to me until I discovered that I happen to be a sexually kinky person and additional discoveries followed after that. So anyway, life meanders in odd and interesting ways for some of us. Thank you for posting, OP, and thanks to all who have commented. I wish we all had what we needed; I wish we all got the love, validation, acceptance, space, freedom, and support to be our best and truest selves, whatever that might mean now and in the future.
posted by Bella Donna at 2:22 PM on April 10, 2019 [10 favorites]
In a conversation with a straight male buddy recently I noticed that he spent a lot of time agonising over the challenge of deciding what he wanted in a partner. Apart from dating only women, I don't feel like I get the luxury of deciding what I want in any meaningful way.
No one owes me anything and never has. I am in my 60s and have little sexual experience with women, and I am skeptical that a woman will want to be sexual with me. Maybe? Either way, I don't plan on betting my happiness on any potential partner. I am just trying to keep working on becoming the best me I can possibly be and make efforts to meet new women. If, on future dates, I click with someone who clicks with me, awesome, and if not, that is life.
Some months back I joined a local Lesbian Bookclub here in Stockholm. I am the oldest person, then there's a woman in her 50s, then it drops to women in their 30s and 20s. It is so delightful to see these women once a month and discuss books we have read that are written by and about lesbians. It is so delightful to see young lesbians who are comfortable in their skins. When I visited my dad recently, I asked him if he knew that there were homosexual animals. Yes, he did. Then why, exactly, had he been so upset when I told him on my last visit that I was attracted to women? He said he didn't know.
It is impossible for me to regret the life I have had because many good things came out of it, plus one cannot change the past. I do regret not realising in my bones that I had a choice; honestly, it just did not occur to me until I discovered that I happen to be a sexually kinky person and additional discoveries followed after that. So anyway, life meanders in odd and interesting ways for some of us. Thank you for posting, OP, and thanks to all who have commented. I wish we all had what we needed; I wish we all got the love, validation, acceptance, space, freedom, and support to be our best and truest selves, whatever that might mean now and in the future.
posted by Bella Donna at 2:22 PM on April 10, 2019 [10 favorites]
If you are not a lesbian, you cannot know what this is like. And I’m gonna go ahead and say late in life lesbians don’t really get it either.
Conversely, lesbian-identified people can't know what it's like to be rejected from both queer and straight spaces and to have their sexuality constantly second guessed. I mean, in that first (now anonymous) metafilter question I was literally told that I was a special snowflake who was fabricating my interest in women to seem more interesting to men. I was also reminded to be very very careful about my straight-passing privilege to lesbians, never mind that I was a mess of internalized bi- and transphobia and that I was hearing a metric shit ton of toxic biphobic messaging from my lesbian and gay peers every time I was around them. Bisexuals face such high suicide and depression rates. A lot of this gatekeeping sounds like punching down to me, and we're already dealing with the same old homophobic punching we all get from straight people, too.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 2:31 PM on April 10, 2019 [16 favorites]
Conversely, lesbian-identified people can't know what it's like to be rejected from both queer and straight spaces and to have their sexuality constantly second guessed. I mean, in that first (now anonymous) metafilter question I was literally told that I was a special snowflake who was fabricating my interest in women to seem more interesting to men. I was also reminded to be very very careful about my straight-passing privilege to lesbians, never mind that I was a mess of internalized bi- and transphobia and that I was hearing a metric shit ton of toxic biphobic messaging from my lesbian and gay peers every time I was around them. Bisexuals face such high suicide and depression rates. A lot of this gatekeeping sounds like punching down to me, and we're already dealing with the same old homophobic punching we all get from straight people, too.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 2:31 PM on April 10, 2019 [16 favorites]
I'm not saying anyone is entitled to anything. I don't think that at all. I'm just talking about how I felt about my own experiences.
Ok, but like...surely we have all learned that you can behave in a certain way, with a certain effect in the world, without "thinking" those things?
Look at the way these threads always go. It is inevitably the numerical majority shouting down the minority. Whose voices get heard matters. It determines the boundaries of the conversation and whose experiences matter. And it happens in every. single. queer space.
And the thing is, this shit never stops. It's not like you're free of it once someone has come out as bi or pan or however they end up identifying. Because claiming a sexual identity is not even a LITTLE bit the same as feeling comfortable with the idea of committing to a woman as a partner. Internalized homophobia comes up at every relationship stage: some people freak out when they develop real feelings. Some people freak out when they hit a relationship milestone. And WOW is it worse the farther in you get -- at least with the women who tell me in bed I can be like, welp, ok, that's another one. It's just being dehumanized, not being dehumanized and getting my heart ripped out.
And because it never stops, even when it's not the stated, explicit reason why you get your heart ripped out, you always wonder.
And like, yeah, this is patriarchy. We can't escape it even when we want nothing whatsoever to do with men. Because the truth is, it *is* harder to be with a woman in the short term. It incurs social costs you don't really think about until it comes up. Because for men, and people who invested in patriarchy, the real sin is not being available to men. That male boss who determines your promotion opportunities? Suddenly way less cool with it if you are *too* queer. And don't even think about presenting as anything other than pleasing to men.
This stuff is exhausting enough to have to live all the time, for all of us. But lesbian experiences frequently get invalidated, dismissed, or shouted down in conversations about queer women's lives even in queer spaces, and it leaves us with fucking nothing.
Personally, I don't really care about how a potential partner identifies, except to the extent that they care / it's a part of them that's important to them. I care if they can see me, and if they care about the ways they can hurt me. WLW are already a small set of people; the ones who theoretically want to settle down with a woman fewer still. The ones who are open to that and care to see me? Gettin' pretty sparse.
posted by schadenfrau at 2:32 PM on April 10, 2019 [4 favorites]
Ok, but like...surely we have all learned that you can behave in a certain way, with a certain effect in the world, without "thinking" those things?
Look at the way these threads always go. It is inevitably the numerical majority shouting down the minority. Whose voices get heard matters. It determines the boundaries of the conversation and whose experiences matter. And it happens in every. single. queer space.
And the thing is, this shit never stops. It's not like you're free of it once someone has come out as bi or pan or however they end up identifying. Because claiming a sexual identity is not even a LITTLE bit the same as feeling comfortable with the idea of committing to a woman as a partner. Internalized homophobia comes up at every relationship stage: some people freak out when they develop real feelings. Some people freak out when they hit a relationship milestone. And WOW is it worse the farther in you get -- at least with the women who tell me in bed I can be like, welp, ok, that's another one. It's just being dehumanized, not being dehumanized and getting my heart ripped out.
And because it never stops, even when it's not the stated, explicit reason why you get your heart ripped out, you always wonder.
And like, yeah, this is patriarchy. We can't escape it even when we want nothing whatsoever to do with men. Because the truth is, it *is* harder to be with a woman in the short term. It incurs social costs you don't really think about until it comes up. Because for men, and people who invested in patriarchy, the real sin is not being available to men. That male boss who determines your promotion opportunities? Suddenly way less cool with it if you are *too* queer. And don't even think about presenting as anything other than pleasing to men.
This stuff is exhausting enough to have to live all the time, for all of us. But lesbian experiences frequently get invalidated, dismissed, or shouted down in conversations about queer women's lives even in queer spaces, and it leaves us with fucking nothing.
Personally, I don't really care about how a potential partner identifies, except to the extent that they care / it's a part of them that's important to them. I care if they can see me, and if they care about the ways they can hurt me. WLW are already a small set of people; the ones who theoretically want to settle down with a woman fewer still. The ones who are open to that and care to see me? Gettin' pretty sparse.
posted by schadenfrau at 2:32 PM on April 10, 2019 [4 favorites]
I mean, we have very different experiences of queer spaces, then.
posted by schadenfrau at 2:34 PM on April 10, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by schadenfrau at 2:34 PM on April 10, 2019 [1 favorite]
Conversely, lesbian-identified people can't know what it's like to be rejected from both queer and straight spaces and to have their sexuality constantly second guessed.
I have my identity second-guessed and invalidated incessantly, as has every lesbian I've ever known.
posted by bile and syntax at 2:41 PM on April 10, 2019 [6 favorites]
I have my identity second-guessed and invalidated incessantly, as has every lesbian I've ever known.
posted by bile and syntax at 2:41 PM on April 10, 2019 [6 favorites]
I have my identity second-guessed and invalidated incessantly, as has every lesbian I've ever known.
By lesbians?
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 2:43 PM on April 10, 2019
By lesbians?
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 2:43 PM on April 10, 2019
By lesbians?
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:43 PM on April 10 [+] [!]
Lesbians aren't somehow more oppressive than other people who invalidate same sex attraction.
posted by FirstMateKate at 2:45 PM on April 10, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:43 PM on April 10 [+] [!]
Lesbians aren't somehow more oppressive than other people who invalidate same sex attraction.
posted by FirstMateKate at 2:45 PM on April 10, 2019 [2 favorites]
Mod note: Gonna ask that people please just take a minute and cool off in here. This isn't a contest. People can share their experiences with this, and all those experiences can be true, and we can... just listen to each other about what parts have been hard.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 2:50 PM on April 10, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 2:50 PM on April 10, 2019 [6 favorites]
What exactly are you getting at? I've had people respond to the lesbian identity as though calling myself a lesbian is itself offensive to their own identity, since they didn't believe sexuality was fixed or whatever. Like...I've gotten that kind of a lot, coming from younger queers. Who I am is offensive to their worldview, and they are not shy about saying it.
Some of this may have to do with the demographics of who you interact with. Most of the queer women I interact with are younger than 35.
posted by schadenfrau at 2:51 PM on April 10, 2019 [7 favorites]
Some of this may have to do with the demographics of who you interact with. Most of the queer women I interact with are younger than 35.
posted by schadenfrau at 2:51 PM on April 10, 2019 [7 favorites]
Lesbians aren't somehow more oppressive than other people who invalidate same sex attraction.
I'll take that as a no then?
Because as lesbians, you have access to a community--to a safe space. Whereas every time I was in those spaces I had to hear about untrustworthy bisexual women and how bi is a lie. I was told that I shouldn't be physically affectionate with my partner and that I didn't belong in those spaces if I was dating a man. Meanwhile, my sexuality and gender performance were treated with aversion and homophobia in straight corners. There was no place where I belonged - until I began to find explicitly bi and trans spaces. It had an absolutely toxic effect on my mental health.
The women in the article aren't trading a homophobic straight society for one that automatically welcomes them with open arms, and I'm going to guess that this plays a part in the way they identify.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 2:53 PM on April 10, 2019 [11 favorites]
I'll take that as a no then?
Because as lesbians, you have access to a community--to a safe space. Whereas every time I was in those spaces I had to hear about untrustworthy bisexual women and how bi is a lie. I was told that I shouldn't be physically affectionate with my partner and that I didn't belong in those spaces if I was dating a man. Meanwhile, my sexuality and gender performance were treated with aversion and homophobia in straight corners. There was no place where I belonged - until I began to find explicitly bi and trans spaces. It had an absolutely toxic effect on my mental health.
The women in the article aren't trading a homophobic straight society for one that automatically welcomes them with open arms, and I'm going to guess that this plays a part in the way they identify.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 2:53 PM on April 10, 2019 [11 favorites]
"Lesbians aren't somehow more oppressive than other people who invalidate same sex attraction."
I'll take that as a no then?Because as lesbians, you have access to a community--to a safe space
For one, you can take it how you want but it's a pretty .. lesbophobic connotation that you think unless you're invalidated by The Lesbians you can't possibly know how bad it hurts to be invalidated.
And for two, it's laughable that you're trying to speak about how lesbians "have a community" and "Access to a safe space" when all of the lesbians in this thread are talking about how we're being shoved out of spaces because we don't accept ourselves as fluid. Someone upthread mentioned how lesbian bars are dying while queer spaces are rising. Please do not speak for or over us.
posted by FirstMateKate at 3:00 PM on April 10, 2019 [6 favorites]
I'm talking about firsthand experiences I've had in lesbian spaces over the past twenty years. These are not generalities. They're my actual lived experiences.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:00 PM on April 10, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:00 PM on April 10, 2019 [1 favorite]
Using someone else to figure out your attraction patterns isn’t a kindness to yourself (wtf), it’s a cruelty to others, and when it’s directed at lesbians it brings with it all the weight of misogyny and homophobia.
It's not cruel, any more than it is "cruel" to date someone of any gender for whom you think you might be attracted to, but aren't yet sure. It's called DATING. That's why we date, rather than moving immediately to long-term relationships.
I've never heard anyone claim to be "used" when someone dates them a few times, sleeps with them, and then says "this just isn't working for me" - unless that person happens to be bi/pan/fluid. I certainly don't hear a lot of sympathy for the early opposite sex partners of people who later identify as homosexual - some of whom were in long-term relationships. That's accepted as part of, you know, the need for people to figure out their own attraction patterns.
It sucks when someone isn't attracted to you - and political lesbianism (women choosing to date women for political/social reasons, as opposed to being attracted to women) is always problematic. And people should be up front with their partners about who they are, their preferences. But I know why a hell of a lot of bi/pan women don't want to - and if I were dating women, I wouldn't either. I'm not figuring out my attractions, I've known since I was 14 that I liked boys and girls - but the biphobia in the monosexual gay and lesbian community is just still too strong.
The privilege claim though: that's just funny, in a dark way, considering all the recent research which suggests that bi/pan people face more sexual violence and more mental health issues than monosexuals, gay or straight.
posted by jb at 3:03 PM on April 10, 2019 [7 favorites]
It's not cruel, any more than it is "cruel" to date someone of any gender for whom you think you might be attracted to, but aren't yet sure. It's called DATING. That's why we date, rather than moving immediately to long-term relationships.
I've never heard anyone claim to be "used" when someone dates them a few times, sleeps with them, and then says "this just isn't working for me" - unless that person happens to be bi/pan/fluid. I certainly don't hear a lot of sympathy for the early opposite sex partners of people who later identify as homosexual - some of whom were in long-term relationships. That's accepted as part of, you know, the need for people to figure out their own attraction patterns.
It sucks when someone isn't attracted to you - and political lesbianism (women choosing to date women for political/social reasons, as opposed to being attracted to women) is always problematic. And people should be up front with their partners about who they are, their preferences. But I know why a hell of a lot of bi/pan women don't want to - and if I were dating women, I wouldn't either. I'm not figuring out my attractions, I've known since I was 14 that I liked boys and girls - but the biphobia in the monosexual gay and lesbian community is just still too strong.
The privilege claim though: that's just funny, in a dark way, considering all the recent research which suggests that bi/pan people face more sexual violence and more mental health issues than monosexuals, gay or straight.
posted by jb at 3:03 PM on April 10, 2019 [7 favorites]
I've never heard anyone claim to be "used" when someone dates them a few times, sleeps with them, and then says "this just isn't working for me" - unless that person happens to be bi/pan/fluid
or when they fucking tell you it's because you're a woman, and they could never have a "real" relationship with a woman? is that valid enough for you? how many forms of proof do we need for you to believe our experiences? I may have misplaced the certified letters.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:08 PM on April 10, 2019 [8 favorites]
or when they fucking tell you it's because you're a woman, and they could never have a "real" relationship with a woman? is that valid enough for you? how many forms of proof do we need for you to believe our experiences? I may have misplaced the certified letters.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:08 PM on April 10, 2019 [8 favorites]
I've never heard anyone claim to be "used" when someone dates them a few times, sleeps with them, and then says "this just isn't working for me" - unless that person happens to be bi/pan/fluid
Like JFC you are doing the thing. You just implied that lesbians talking about their experiences is really just a cover for biphobia. You are invalidating and dismissing an actual trauma that happens over and over again to the people who experience it and who said so in this very thread on the basis of their identity.
That is homophobic and misogynistic as fuck.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:13 PM on April 10, 2019 [6 favorites]
Like JFC you are doing the thing. You just implied that lesbians talking about their experiences is really just a cover for biphobia. You are invalidating and dismissing an actual trauma that happens over and over again to the people who experience it and who said so in this very thread on the basis of their identity.
That is homophobic and misogynistic as fuck.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:13 PM on April 10, 2019 [6 favorites]
The privilege claim though: that's just funny, in a dark way, considering all the recent research which suggests that bi/pan people face more sexual violence and more mental health issues than monosexuals, gay or straight.
Bi and pan sexual people's exposure to sexual violence is because of their relationships and proximity to men. The implications you're making here, one that "monosexual" privilege exists, and two that lesbophobia doesn't exist, is infuriating and exactly what we're talking about.
Being a lesbian is not a privilege, or an "easy moniker". Lesbians don't have any privileges over bi or pan people. I don't know how many lesbians have to tell you personal or intimate details about Lesbian specific trauma for you to understand.
posted by FirstMateKate at 3:33 PM on April 10, 2019 [5 favorites]
Bi and pan sexual people's exposure to sexual violence is because of their relationships and proximity to men. The implications you're making here, one that "monosexual" privilege exists, and two that lesbophobia doesn't exist, is infuriating and exactly what we're talking about.
Being a lesbian is not a privilege, or an "easy moniker". Lesbians don't have any privileges over bi or pan people. I don't know how many lesbians have to tell you personal or intimate details about Lesbian specific trauma for you to understand.
posted by FirstMateKate at 3:33 PM on April 10, 2019 [5 favorites]
I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that everyone who has been traumatised, rejected, abused verbally or physically or otherwise suffered as a result of their marginalised positions have suffered. Do we really need to have a contest about who has it worse, the oppressed X or the oppressed Y?
Fuck the patriarchy and fuck capitalism and fuck whatever the hell else has women who love women arguing with each other here on the blue. Lesbians are not the enemy. I don't know a lot but I know that much. Also that anyone who sleeps with a woman and then informs her that they could never have a real relationship with a woman is an asshole but I don't think that makes bisexuals, as a whole, the enemy either.
I am so sorry that people in this thread have been so hurt so often by so many other women. That really sucks.
posted by Bella Donna at 3:36 PM on April 10, 2019 [22 favorites]
Fuck the patriarchy and fuck capitalism and fuck whatever the hell else has women who love women arguing with each other here on the blue. Lesbians are not the enemy. I don't know a lot but I know that much. Also that anyone who sleeps with a woman and then informs her that they could never have a real relationship with a woman is an asshole but I don't think that makes bisexuals, as a whole, the enemy either.
I am so sorry that people in this thread have been so hurt so often by so many other women. That really sucks.
posted by Bella Donna at 3:36 PM on April 10, 2019 [22 favorites]
Lesbians don't have any privileges over bi or pan people.
Research shows that bisexuals face depression and suicide rates above monosexual straight and gay people. That's one privilege specifically.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:36 PM on April 10, 2019 [1 favorite]
Research shows that bisexuals face depression and suicide rates above monosexual straight and gay people. That's one privilege specifically.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:36 PM on April 10, 2019 [1 favorite]
Really, I just wish I'd had some model for how to explore my sexuality without the risk of hurting other women. My awareness of that very real risk kept me in the closet even from myself for a long time. I certainly don't think the answer to this is to demand anything from lesbians, but I don't know what the answer is.
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:39 PM on April 10, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:39 PM on April 10, 2019 [9 favorites]
Someone upthread mentioned how lesbian bars are dying while queer spaces are rising. Please do not speak for or over us.
The crises of lesbian bars really doesn't have anything to do with fluid women -- it's a much more complicated issue. Locally, I know that the last lesbian bar on the gay-strip in my town closed because it was a) a bad bar, and b) lots of not-officially-queer bars are now so much more accepting that queer afab go there because the gay ghetto is actually really expensive to live near and it's nicer to go to your queer-friendly local. Also, this is anecdata, but as far as I can observe, queer women and trans/non-binary people people spend less time in bars than cis gay men. I don't know why - cost, culture, whatever - but I know many lesbians as well as bi/pan women, and they don't spend much time in specifically lesbian-bars. You're more likely to find knitting at a local library or coffee shop. (Okay, maybe my sample is super-biased). As someone in research (albeit a different field), I think it would be really great to study this issue more.
The privilege claim though: that's just funny, in a dark way, considering all the recent research which suggests that bi/pan people face more sexual violence and more mental health issues than monosexuals, gay or straight.
This is both true and, as someone who is probably within the bi umbrella, I think pinning it on lesbians and focusing really hard on what lesbians are (allegedly) doing wrong as a class is really not an okay thing to do.
My apologies - that was not my attention. I didn't mean to imply that any group of people were doing anything wrong. I was responding to a particular poster and probably shouldn't have.
---
and I'm sorry for the direction this discussion has gone - and I just deleted part of this comment before posting to avoid contributing more to it. Queer people really don't need to turn on each other like this - I hope rather that we would be allies to each other and support each other. I've had really good experiences in many queer spaces, especially where the organizers were really explicit about how we're all in this together.
one example is the Toronto Dyke March - I only got involved with them over the last few years, but I've been really impressed at how they create spaces which centre queer women and trans people without policing identities.
posted by jb at 3:39 PM on April 10, 2019 [4 favorites]
The crises of lesbian bars really doesn't have anything to do with fluid women -- it's a much more complicated issue. Locally, I know that the last lesbian bar on the gay-strip in my town closed because it was a) a bad bar, and b) lots of not-officially-queer bars are now so much more accepting that queer afab go there because the gay ghetto is actually really expensive to live near and it's nicer to go to your queer-friendly local. Also, this is anecdata, but as far as I can observe, queer women and trans/non-binary people people spend less time in bars than cis gay men. I don't know why - cost, culture, whatever - but I know many lesbians as well as bi/pan women, and they don't spend much time in specifically lesbian-bars. You're more likely to find knitting at a local library or coffee shop. (Okay, maybe my sample is super-biased). As someone in research (albeit a different field), I think it would be really great to study this issue more.
This is both true and, as someone who is probably within the bi umbrella, I think pinning it on lesbians and focusing really hard on what lesbians are (allegedly) doing wrong as a class is really not an okay thing to do.
My apologies - that was not my attention. I didn't mean to imply that any group of people were doing anything wrong. I was responding to a particular poster and probably shouldn't have.
---
and I'm sorry for the direction this discussion has gone - and I just deleted part of this comment before posting to avoid contributing more to it. Queer people really don't need to turn on each other like this - I hope rather that we would be allies to each other and support each other. I've had really good experiences in many queer spaces, especially where the organizers were really explicit about how we're all in this together.
one example is the Toronto Dyke March - I only got involved with them over the last few years, but I've been really impressed at how they create spaces which centre queer women and trans people without policing identities.
posted by jb at 3:39 PM on April 10, 2019 [4 favorites]
For what it's worth, I don't think lesbians are the enemy. I was relating difficulties I've personally had in both lesbian and cis gay male spaces with regard to biphobia, because the article is about women whose behavior could be described as broadly "bisexual" even if they don't use that label. I find the derail here into whether bisexual women are trustworthy to be upsetting and frankly triggering.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:39 PM on April 10, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:39 PM on April 10, 2019 [4 favorites]
Picking up another thread...
My annoyance with how pansexuality is often presented these days is that you can't abstract away bisexuality out from under pervasive cultural heterocentrism and inversion theory. (In fact, "bisexual" was first coined as a translation for hermaphrodite because of inversion theory.) While older editions of the dictionary may say, "attraction to men and women" (Websters and Oxford now use gender-inclusive definitions) what straight people often mean is "sex with f*cking fairies, dykes, and traps." (RHPS was all about lampooning straight fears of bi hedonism and genderfuck.*) My dear sweet mother, who has known about me for almost 30 years now, still wonders about how sex works without a designated man and a designated woman. (She would never admit that to anyone else.) Many cis LGB people have complex gender identities that are distinct from their straight counterparts, and on the other hand there's a long tradition of gender liberation alongside sexual liberation in LGBTQ culture.
So relying on a strict denotation without looking at cultural context or experience feels a lot like erasure.
* Yes, I know RHPS is problematic.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 3:40 PM on April 10, 2019 [4 favorites]
My annoyance with how pansexuality is often presented these days is that you can't abstract away bisexuality out from under pervasive cultural heterocentrism and inversion theory. (In fact, "bisexual" was first coined as a translation for hermaphrodite because of inversion theory.) While older editions of the dictionary may say, "attraction to men and women" (Websters and Oxford now use gender-inclusive definitions) what straight people often mean is "sex with f*cking fairies, dykes, and traps." (RHPS was all about lampooning straight fears of bi hedonism and genderfuck.*) My dear sweet mother, who has known about me for almost 30 years now, still wonders about how sex works without a designated man and a designated woman. (She would never admit that to anyone else.) Many cis LGB people have complex gender identities that are distinct from their straight counterparts, and on the other hand there's a long tradition of gender liberation alongside sexual liberation in LGBTQ culture.
So relying on a strict denotation without looking at cultural context or experience feels a lot like erasure.
* Yes, I know RHPS is problematic.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 3:40 PM on April 10, 2019 [4 favorites]
Lesbians don't have any privileges over bi or pan people.
Research shows that bisexuals face depression and suicide rates above monosexual straight and gay people. That's one privilege specifically.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:36 PM on April 10
[+] [!]
Individuals who do not have mental illness are privileged over people who do not, but gay/lesbians aren't inherently privileged over bi/pan people. or else you could say that a depressive, suicidal lesbian has privileges over a mentally healthy bi person, by virtue of this supposed "monosexual privilege".
posted by FirstMateKate at 3:49 PM on April 10, 2019 [2 favorites]
Research shows that bisexuals face depression and suicide rates above monosexual straight and gay people. That's one privilege specifically.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:36 PM on April 10
[+] [!]
Individuals who do not have mental illness are privileged over people who do not, but gay/lesbians aren't inherently privileged over bi/pan people. or else you could say that a depressive, suicidal lesbian has privileges over a mentally healthy bi person, by virtue of this supposed "monosexual privilege".
posted by FirstMateKate at 3:49 PM on April 10, 2019 [2 favorites]
Sexuality and gender alignment are major grouping identifiers. There is a lot of cultural baggage associated with the various labels attached to these groups.
It's painfully clear to me from my experience with the trans community that we contain the full spectrum of political, moral, ethical, etc. alignments as the rest of the population.
Being physically attracted to the same gender does not guarantee you have a more socially progressive ideals with respect to welfare or racial equality or environmental protection or acceptance of gender non-conforming individuals.
But it's culturally common to assume that being queer, or bi, or trans, or whatever means a whole raft of other things it does not necessarily mean.
And we live in cultures in which membership in groups can be threatened by labels ("bisexual", "queer"...) And the power dynamics between these groups influence strongly our safety, our prosperity, our ability to participate in the larger whole of society. And we're taught all of that so very early. "Oh, you don't want to be one of those.
And so people who find that they actually do experience a characteristic which has been used to label and marginalise groups, whose label has been used as shorthand for "other" and "trash" and "subhuman" - these people often avoid identifying using these labels because doing so is a threat to their identity as members of more privelleged groups.
As if maybe recognising this commonality with people you participated in the 5 minute hate against could lead to a better world.
As if maybe you might yourself benefit from not starting from rejection first.
As if maybe acknowledging that you treated these labels as slurs and that was wrong and hurtful.
As if maybe starting from the assumption that we're all just human and can we please leave it at that?
Fuck.
posted by allium cepa at 3:50 PM on April 10, 2019
It's painfully clear to me from my experience with the trans community that we contain the full spectrum of political, moral, ethical, etc. alignments as the rest of the population.
Being physically attracted to the same gender does not guarantee you have a more socially progressive ideals with respect to welfare or racial equality or environmental protection or acceptance of gender non-conforming individuals.
But it's culturally common to assume that being queer, or bi, or trans, or whatever means a whole raft of other things it does not necessarily mean.
And we live in cultures in which membership in groups can be threatened by labels ("bisexual", "queer"...) And the power dynamics between these groups influence strongly our safety, our prosperity, our ability to participate in the larger whole of society. And we're taught all of that so very early. "Oh, you don't want to be one of those.
And so people who find that they actually do experience a characteristic which has been used to label and marginalise groups, whose label has been used as shorthand for "other" and "trash" and "subhuman" - these people often avoid identifying using these labels because doing so is a threat to their identity as members of more privelleged groups.
As if maybe recognising this commonality with people you participated in the 5 minute hate against could lead to a better world.
As if maybe you might yourself benefit from not starting from rejection first.
As if maybe acknowledging that you treated these labels as slurs and that was wrong and hurtful.
As if maybe starting from the assumption that we're all just human and can we please leave it at that?
Fuck.
posted by allium cepa at 3:50 PM on April 10, 2019
Bi and pan sexual people's exposure to sexual violence is because of their relationships and proximity to men.
My experience, supported by at least some of the research, is that many straight people only approve of bisexuality as long as their personal kinks are satisfied. When they're not satisfied, it becomes an existential threat justifying abuse. This is why bi people are nearly twice as likely to be survivors of abuse as their straight counterparts. (50% for bi women, about 25% for bi men, consistently replicated in the U.S. Canada, U.K., and Australia.) The best explanation for that gap is anti-bisexual prejudice.
We're sex unicorns or sex monsters. If we're not our partner's personal unicorn (and I'm expanding that term to include "freaky in bed" and "gender nonconforming" in the list of stereotypical attributes that people expect from us), we're assumed to be someone else's monster.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 3:55 PM on April 10, 2019 [11 favorites]
My experience, supported by at least some of the research, is that many straight people only approve of bisexuality as long as their personal kinks are satisfied. When they're not satisfied, it becomes an existential threat justifying abuse. This is why bi people are nearly twice as likely to be survivors of abuse as their straight counterparts. (50% for bi women, about 25% for bi men, consistently replicated in the U.S. Canada, U.K., and Australia.) The best explanation for that gap is anti-bisexual prejudice.
We're sex unicorns or sex monsters. If we're not our partner's personal unicorn (and I'm expanding that term to include "freaky in bed" and "gender nonconforming" in the list of stereotypical attributes that people expect from us), we're assumed to be someone else's monster.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 3:55 PM on April 10, 2019 [11 favorites]
or else you could say that a depressive, suicidal lesbian has privileges over a mentally healthy bi person, by virtue of this supposed "monosexual privilege".
Sure, but a random bi person is statistically less likely to be mentally healthy and statistically more likely to die by suicide. And I think, when we're talking about people who are engaging in behaviors that would be commonly labeled as "bisexual," these things are important to acknowledge and talk about.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:55 PM on April 10, 2019 [3 favorites]
Sure, but a random bi person is statistically less likely to be mentally healthy and statistically more likely to die by suicide. And I think, when we're talking about people who are engaging in behaviors that would be commonly labeled as "bisexual," these things are important to acknowledge and talk about.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:55 PM on April 10, 2019 [3 favorites]
Research shows that bisexuals face depression and suicide rates above monosexual straight and gay people. That's one privilege specifically.
Perhaps it would be better to phrase it as there is evidence that suggests that bi/pan people are experiencing some kind of stress that makes it more likely for them to report lower mental health outcomes. We really don't know why: is it something inherent to being attracted to more than one gender? Is it the attitudes of society in general (not the LGBTQ community specifically) to people who experience attraction to more than one gender? or maybe it's the other way around: are people who have experienced mental health issues more likely to identify as non-monosexual, perhaps because they are more aware of diverse identities?
NB: I am not suggesting any of these are true. I am just trying to point out that associations are hard to understand. All we know is that bisexual people are more likely to report poorer mental health than non-monosexual people, just as all queer people are more likely to report poorer mental health than straight, cis people. Researchers have interpreted this as suggesting that there may be some specific stress related to being non-monosexual, but it's not proof - just a suggestion that warrants more research.
posted by jb at 4:09 PM on April 10, 2019
Perhaps it would be better to phrase it as there is evidence that suggests that bi/pan people are experiencing some kind of stress that makes it more likely for them to report lower mental health outcomes. We really don't know why: is it something inherent to being attracted to more than one gender? Is it the attitudes of society in general (not the LGBTQ community specifically) to people who experience attraction to more than one gender? or maybe it's the other way around: are people who have experienced mental health issues more likely to identify as non-monosexual, perhaps because they are more aware of diverse identities?
NB: I am not suggesting any of these are true. I am just trying to point out that associations are hard to understand. All we know is that bisexual people are more likely to report poorer mental health than non-monosexual people, just as all queer people are more likely to report poorer mental health than straight, cis people. Researchers have interpreted this as suggesting that there may be some specific stress related to being non-monosexual, but it's not proof - just a suggestion that warrants more research.
posted by jb at 4:09 PM on April 10, 2019
The best explanation for that gap is anti-bisexual prejudice.
Of course. Biphobia is real. But if you can say "lesbians are a privilege class because they don't experience biphobia", you could also say that bisexuals are a privileged class because they don't experience lesbophobia. That's...that's just absurd. Oppression Olympics are nonsense, and I'm not sure why there's a solid group of bi people in here try to say that, and some going a step further to say the existence of biphobia negates the existence of lesbophobia
posted by FirstMateKate at 4:12 PM on April 10, 2019 [3 favorites]
Of course. Biphobia is real. But if you can say "lesbians are a privilege class because they don't experience biphobia", you could also say that bisexuals are a privileged class because they don't experience lesbophobia. That's...that's just absurd. Oppression Olympics are nonsense, and I'm not sure why there's a solid group of bi people in here try to say that, and some going a step further to say the existence of biphobia negates the existence of lesbophobia
posted by FirstMateKate at 4:12 PM on April 10, 2019 [3 favorites]
and some going a step further to say the existence of biphobia negates the existence of lesbophobia
Who? I haven't seen anyone say this.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:15 PM on April 10, 2019 [4 favorites]
Who? I haven't seen anyone say this.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:15 PM on April 10, 2019 [4 favorites]
Mod note: I kinda feel like we could take a step back and say "biphobia and lesbophobia are two things that suck for folks and that folks experiencing either can probably find a lot of common ground on" and leave it there instead of getting in a dynamic of jousting over the specifics, and I'm gonna ask y'all to basically do just that at this point.
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:19 PM on April 10, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:19 PM on April 10, 2019 [8 favorites]
Perhaps it would be better to phrase it as there is evidence that suggests that bi/pan people are experiencing some kind of stress that makes it more likely for them to report lower mental health outcomes.
Hmm since it's not just self-reported mental health but also substance abuse and suicidal behavior I'm not so sure that it's just an issue of reporting. The differences are definitely, demonstrably there. Of course you're right that we don't know why. I can understand that these women might be reluctant to identify as bisexual, though. A lot of people are. See also: self-identification for African American men who have sex with men. I find the identification personally important but it also comes with a heck of a lot of baggage.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:21 PM on April 10, 2019
Hmm since it's not just self-reported mental health but also substance abuse and suicidal behavior I'm not so sure that it's just an issue of reporting. The differences are definitely, demonstrably there. Of course you're right that we don't know why. I can understand that these women might be reluctant to identify as bisexual, though. A lot of people are. See also: self-identification for African American men who have sex with men. I find the identification personally important but it also comes with a heck of a lot of baggage.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:21 PM on April 10, 2019
Lesbians have no institutional power or value over bisexual people. If we are talking about privilege at all analogously to cis, or straight, or racial privilege, I am not getting it. I am thinking of it more as "heterosexism affects gay/lesbian people and bisexual people differently?"
posted by nakedmolerats at 4:24 PM on April 10, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by nakedmolerats at 4:24 PM on April 10, 2019 [7 favorites]
sorry: forgot the details of the results.
re privilege: I find it helpful to remember that privilege isn't something a person is, but something someone has.
To take an example from myself: I have a privilege of appearing to be cis and heterosexual to people who don't know me - and thus I avoid a lot of casual discrimination. However, psychological research has also found that having hidden identities - whether sexual orientation or a chronic but invisible illness - can itself be a cause of stress. So "passing" can be both a privilege and detrimental at the same time.
looking at it that way, my earlier remark is not appropriate, and I would like to apologize for it.
posted by jb at 4:28 PM on April 10, 2019 [6 favorites]
re privilege: I find it helpful to remember that privilege isn't something a person is, but something someone has.
To take an example from myself: I have a privilege of appearing to be cis and heterosexual to people who don't know me - and thus I avoid a lot of casual discrimination. However, psychological research has also found that having hidden identities - whether sexual orientation or a chronic but invisible illness - can itself be a cause of stress. So "passing" can be both a privilege and detrimental at the same time.
looking at it that way, my earlier remark is not appropriate, and I would like to apologize for it.
posted by jb at 4:28 PM on April 10, 2019 [6 favorites]
What exactly are you getting at? I've had people respond to the lesbian identity as though calling myself a lesbian is itself offensive to their own identity, since they didn't believe sexuality was fixed or whatever. Like...I've gotten that kind of a lot, coming from younger queers. Who I am is offensive to their worldview, and they are not shy about saying it.
For what it's worth, i'm 29, and many of my friends are 25~
The other people my age who do identify as lesbians are right in the thick of getting absolutely blasted for this and it's so exhausting. I've encountered quite a bit of this too, and it's a regular topic of conversation.
But with me, it's often framed as "ugh why are you so insistent on conforming to the old ideas of sexuality" etc etc. I'm... so tired
posted by emptythought at 4:30 PM on April 10, 2019 [9 favorites]
For what it's worth, i'm 29, and many of my friends are 25~
The other people my age who do identify as lesbians are right in the thick of getting absolutely blasted for this and it's so exhausting. I've encountered quite a bit of this too, and it's a regular topic of conversation.
But with me, it's often framed as "ugh why are you so insistent on conforming to the old ideas of sexuality" etc etc. I'm... so tired
posted by emptythought at 4:30 PM on April 10, 2019 [9 favorites]
(that is, claiming that one group is more or less privileged than another, because it doesn't work so simply).
posted by jb at 4:30 PM on April 10, 2019
posted by jb at 4:30 PM on April 10, 2019
I didn't write anything about lesbophobia. And I'm not going to.
My comment is that the pandemic of relationship abuse experienced by bi people isn't explained by proximity (an argument used by others to deny biphobia as distinct). Rather, stereotypes of bi promiscuity and inability to commit drive violent objectification and jealousy.
JB: Really a lecture on correlation/causation?
Many of those factors have been explored, and a general consensus that bi people experience distinct forms of minority stress, complicated by institutional bias since we have been regarded as either immature or hedonistic since Freud. Which aligns nicely with the autobiography of bi people and case studies.
To put it simply, biphobia denial has the same footing as antivax.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 4:36 PM on April 10, 2019 [1 favorite]
My comment is that the pandemic of relationship abuse experienced by bi people isn't explained by proximity (an argument used by others to deny biphobia as distinct). Rather, stereotypes of bi promiscuity and inability to commit drive violent objectification and jealousy.
JB: Really a lecture on correlation/causation?
Many of those factors have been explored, and a general consensus that bi people experience distinct forms of minority stress, complicated by institutional bias since we have been regarded as either immature or hedonistic since Freud. Which aligns nicely with the autobiography of bi people and case studies.
To put it simply, biphobia denial has the same footing as antivax.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 4:36 PM on April 10, 2019 [1 favorite]
Lesbians have no institutional power or value over bisexual people.
Both gay men and lesbians have historically and can gatekeep over queer spaces, though, yeah, this does seem to be changing. FWIW most of my experiences in lesbian spaces are with people a bit older. 35+, I guess. So, probably roughly the age of women in this article.
Maybe it's changing--and it sounds like those changes have come with drawbacks. Sorry to people who have felt pressure to identify as pan or bi. That's uncool.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:43 PM on April 10, 2019 [6 favorites]
Both gay men and lesbians have historically and can gatekeep over queer spaces, though, yeah, this does seem to be changing. FWIW most of my experiences in lesbian spaces are with people a bit older. 35+, I guess. So, probably roughly the age of women in this article.
Maybe it's changing--and it sounds like those changes have come with drawbacks. Sorry to people who have felt pressure to identify as pan or bi. That's uncool.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:43 PM on April 10, 2019 [6 favorites]
I have my identity second-guessed and invalidated incessantly, as has every lesbian I've ever known.
By lesbians?
What do lesbians have to have done to me to for the actual shit I’ve experienced to be valid?
posted by bile and syntax at 7:03 PM on April 10, 2019 [6 favorites]
By lesbians?
What do lesbians have to have done to me to for the actual shit I’ve experienced to be valid?
posted by bile and syntax at 7:03 PM on April 10, 2019 [6 favorites]
What do lesbians have to have done to me to for the actual shit I’ve experienced to be valid?
Because I was specifically saying that what's hard for bi folks is that they deal with homophobia from straight people and biphobia from gay people. I'm not saying that lesbians don't experience homophobia, though I see now how what I said was poorly phrased. So, to rephrase: I'm saying that bisexual people experience homophobia in straight spaces and biphobia on top of that, and that biphobia is not something that lesbian- and gay- identified people experience.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:12 PM on April 10, 2019 [1 favorite]
Because I was specifically saying that what's hard for bi folks is that they deal with homophobia from straight people and biphobia from gay people. I'm not saying that lesbians don't experience homophobia, though I see now how what I said was poorly phrased. So, to rephrase: I'm saying that bisexual people experience homophobia in straight spaces and biphobia on top of that, and that biphobia is not something that lesbian- and gay- identified people experience.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:12 PM on April 10, 2019 [1 favorite]
Here's my working bibliography. The primary reason that's been sparsely updated over the last year has been due to Google's redesign of News and depreciation of their feeds. That includes both small-scale surveys and number crunching on national statistics. I'm not paid to do it and I'm not an active researcher in this field, I'm just sick of the kinds of rhetorical victim-blaming and knee-jerk denial that happened right here in this discussion. That kind of shit is all over the internet.
Talking about pervasive and institutional anti-bisexual prejudice isn't "a contest between most oppressed and discriminated." Talking about anti-bisexual violence, institutional bias, and the minority stress on both personal and population levels says very little about lesbians or other LGBTQ people. Framing that as a "contest" is one of those rhetorical strategies that's used to shut down conversations about anti-bisexual prejudice.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 4:41 AM on April 11, 2019 [9 favorites]
Talking about pervasive and institutional anti-bisexual prejudice isn't "a contest between most oppressed and discriminated." Talking about anti-bisexual violence, institutional bias, and the minority stress on both personal and population levels says very little about lesbians or other LGBTQ people. Framing that as a "contest" is one of those rhetorical strategies that's used to shut down conversations about anti-bisexual prejudice.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 4:41 AM on April 11, 2019 [9 favorites]
Why has this thread devolved into a contest between most oppressed and discriminated? What's the purpose?
it is not a "contest" to try to make the people who hurt you see that they're hurting you, and describing this discussion this way is incredibly belittling and, whether or not you're conscious of it, it echoes a long history of dismissing women's concerns. It is just...so so shitty.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:00 AM on April 11, 2019 [6 favorites]
it is not a "contest" to try to make the people who hurt you see that they're hurting you, and describing this discussion this way is incredibly belittling and, whether or not you're conscious of it, it echoes a long history of dismissing women's concerns. It is just...so so shitty.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:00 AM on April 11, 2019 [6 favorites]
I'll also note that this is a conversation that is difficult to have within the queer women's community itself; it's sure as shit not made any easier when straight people (or people who haven't lived as a visible part of the community, or don't have much experience, or haven't kept up with anything that's happened in the last ten years, all of which absolutely matters) barge in to have opinions all over the place about how that community functions. I mean, Jesus Christ, we can't even talk about compulsory heterosexuality in a thread about women discovering their sexualities because a straight woman came in and fucked it up. That's ridiculous.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:04 AM on April 11, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by schadenfrau at 8:04 AM on April 11, 2019 [5 favorites]
I just want to say that even though it got heated, this has been a really interesting conversation. And I think some of the bad feelings coming out are because people on both sides are saying "I have experienced something hurtful from a bi woman/a lesbian" and people on both sides are hearing "lesbian culture/bi culture is hurtful to bi women/lesbians full stop." I think many of the issues brought up in this thread are important for the broader WLW community to think about.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:26 AM on April 11, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:26 AM on April 11, 2019 [8 favorites]
For whatever it's worth, PhoBWanKenobi, I've had lesbians do a lot of horrible shit to me, and I've had all kinds of "oh but you're not really ___" and the like from a lot of people I trusted and cared about. I also don't have a strong line between lesbians and bisexuals both because I'm high kinsey but not a six and because I haven't been totally clear on how some of the people I've been involved with or around identified. Where this gets to be a hard dividing line for me is in the experiences I've only had with bi women who have had straight privilege and at some level feel like because they can have that, they don't have to treat me like a person who has feelings. Like schadenfrau, I've been dumped for men more times than I can tell you about, and it is always about getting that privilege back, about being able to avoid dealing with internalized homophobia. I don't know what straight privilege is like. On the rare occasions where I've dated men, I've paid close attention to how differently people wanted to treat me, and it was incredibly uncomfortable and I've always done what I can to shut that down and maintain my visibility and my involvement with the community. What was especially awful about dealing with that was, first, how incredibly obvious and unsubtle people are, and how easy it is to shut that down, and how none of the bi folks I had ever been friends with had ever, ever talked to me about that, ever acknowledged that; and second, how differently my friends treated me, as though a collective breath being held in were suddenly released and finally, finally I wasn't making them uncomfortable with my gross queer desires, never mind that my boyfriend was bi and also very invested in being visible and smashing heteropatriarchy.
I've also had a huge number of encounters with bi women who are very dismissive about queer politics, and who have literally complained about women they are having sex with talking to them about getting involved in the community and in politics, and their response being "Ugh! I don't know why she thought that was my problem! I have a boyfriend!" and I don't even know where to start being shocked, that she thinks having a man means she doesn't have to care or that she feels fine saying this to a woman she's literally just been fucking, and now saying it to me with the expectation that I'd agree with her. I wish so much that I were describing an isolated incident, but I'm not, and to ice the cake a number of women who take this view have also hit on me for sex because hey, party trick.
Biphobia is a huge, huge problem, but the desire to just scream that lesbians are biphobic without looking at the contexts of our lives and experiences is incredibly oversimplifying and puts the entire onus on us to smooth out the damage from social and cultural homophobia. I remember the first time I heard people espousing anti-bisexual stereotypes and thinking there was no way that people would act like that, it had to just be a bias, and then having my bubble burst on that repeatedly before I could even drink, friends approaching me at night for sex, one time, for fun, they're starting a serious relationship with a man and want to be with a woman one last time - never mind all the times we hung out, both single, and they never said a word; friends hitting on me with a man safely in tow because if it's an activity and your man is there then it doesn't mean you're gay, friends talking about how they're not homophobic but you know they'd be mortified if you mentioned to mutuals that you had sex, and this is just the shit I get from my friends, from the people I'm closest to. It's a thousand times worse from strangers.
I've also had the particular experience where bi women have expectations of lesbians that they don't have of anyone else. I've had bi women get mad at me for not having a list of bi resources ready for them, and for not understanding how awkward it would be for them to give up a privilege I've never had, and if my response is anything other than endless tea and sympathy and the reassurances that they're "just as queer" as I am even though I walk my talk every day and they've never stepped out from behind the safety of straight privilege. I've never encountered a bi woman who has any expectation like this of any man - men get cookies and blow jobs for understanding the most basic concepts of feminism and queerness, but lesbians are constantly held to a higher standard, a standard we can never meet.
To go back to the article, I think any time anyone makes the space to be themselves, that's awesome, and dumping men for being shitty partners can't happen too fast. But at the same time, I can't help but be hurt by women who love other women but don't want to be associated with gross hairy lesbians like me, or who feel like they're better than me because they have or have had straight passing privilege.
posted by bile and syntax at 9:33 AM on April 11, 2019 [15 favorites]
I've also had a huge number of encounters with bi women who are very dismissive about queer politics, and who have literally complained about women they are having sex with talking to them about getting involved in the community and in politics, and their response being "Ugh! I don't know why she thought that was my problem! I have a boyfriend!" and I don't even know where to start being shocked, that she thinks having a man means she doesn't have to care or that she feels fine saying this to a woman she's literally just been fucking, and now saying it to me with the expectation that I'd agree with her. I wish so much that I were describing an isolated incident, but I'm not, and to ice the cake a number of women who take this view have also hit on me for sex because hey, party trick.
Biphobia is a huge, huge problem, but the desire to just scream that lesbians are biphobic without looking at the contexts of our lives and experiences is incredibly oversimplifying and puts the entire onus on us to smooth out the damage from social and cultural homophobia. I remember the first time I heard people espousing anti-bisexual stereotypes and thinking there was no way that people would act like that, it had to just be a bias, and then having my bubble burst on that repeatedly before I could even drink, friends approaching me at night for sex, one time, for fun, they're starting a serious relationship with a man and want to be with a woman one last time - never mind all the times we hung out, both single, and they never said a word; friends hitting on me with a man safely in tow because if it's an activity and your man is there then it doesn't mean you're gay, friends talking about how they're not homophobic but you know they'd be mortified if you mentioned to mutuals that you had sex, and this is just the shit I get from my friends, from the people I'm closest to. It's a thousand times worse from strangers.
I've also had the particular experience where bi women have expectations of lesbians that they don't have of anyone else. I've had bi women get mad at me for not having a list of bi resources ready for them, and for not understanding how awkward it would be for them to give up a privilege I've never had, and if my response is anything other than endless tea and sympathy and the reassurances that they're "just as queer" as I am even though I walk my talk every day and they've never stepped out from behind the safety of straight privilege. I've never encountered a bi woman who has any expectation like this of any man - men get cookies and blow jobs for understanding the most basic concepts of feminism and queerness, but lesbians are constantly held to a higher standard, a standard we can never meet.
To go back to the article, I think any time anyone makes the space to be themselves, that's awesome, and dumping men for being shitty partners can't happen too fast. But at the same time, I can't help but be hurt by women who love other women but don't want to be associated with gross hairy lesbians like me, or who feel like they're better than me because they have or have had straight passing privilege.
posted by bile and syntax at 9:33 AM on April 11, 2019 [15 favorites]
Here's what I'm still not getting about monosexual identity/privilege: I absolutely agree that bi and pan people can and do face discrimination within the LGBTQ community. I have heard all the stereotypes about how it's just a phase and you're really mostly/all straight or gay, deep down. I have lived it while I was questioning and having others question my orientation. But, the idea that "straight/gay" or 'hetero/homo' is the dominant paradigm comes from heterosexism. It comes from straight privilege. We live in a heterosexist world. And absolutely, any and all LGBTQ people can act out heterosexist bias. And it looks different coming from a gay or lesbian person than a straight one. And it's shitty in a different way, too. But I still have trouble seeing the world where heteros let homos into "the mono group" so we could oppress non-monos together. Homos get no historically added privilege or power from straight people because we only date one gender. Not in the same way that, eg, white women have the power to enact racism via their whiteness.
posted by nakedmolerats at 10:11 AM on April 11, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by nakedmolerats at 10:11 AM on April 11, 2019 [5 favorites]
I don't think anyone is intending to lump gay and straight people together into a monolith, because the issues bi people face from straight people are different than the ones they face from gay people. There's nothing new about marginalized groups coming into conflict with each other, without either group being aligned with the majority group.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:39 AM on April 11, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:39 AM on April 11, 2019 [3 favorites]
I dislike the word "monosexual" for many of those reasons. But...
There has long been an institutional bias within primarily straight health care, politics, and mass media of anti-bisexual bias and bi erasure. That reflects dichotomous models of sexuality going back to Freud, but you still encounter it from many health professionals. In the 1980s bi men were scapegoated as reasons why we need criminal transmission of HIV laws, but none of the relevant health agencies were collecting data about MSMW distinct from MSM. Heterosexual transmission of HIV is a problem, but no one bothered to collect data specifically about MSMW or their female partners. I posted my bibliography of research regarding anti-bisexual violence and negative health outcomes for bi people. In some of those cases, the results for bi people were pushed off of the abstract or burried out of the lede of the press release. One study reported that schools with GSAs helped gay and lesbian teens, but had no impact on bi teens. Only the favorable results for gay/lesbian teens made it into the lede. It's still pretty common to see primarily straight research that aggregates gay, lesbian, and bisexual people assuming homogeneity. In journalism, it's common to see "LGBT" used once and "gay" or "gay/lesbian" used throughout.
That has impact on primarily straight clinical practice as well, with a fair number of providers who actively gaslight clients on the theory (dating back to Freud) that bisexuality is either immature homosexuality or kinky heterosexuality. My current provider is the first who's not challenged me on being monogamous, comfortable in my current relationship, and not being sexually active.
Of course, that's selective, the Family Research Council is using this sexual fluidity discussion this week to argue that sexual orientation is mutable and, therefore, not a protected class in civil rights terms. So we're visible when it's convenient to argue against civil rights on the grounds that we're sex fiends, but invisible when primarily straight stakeholders are asked to provide a diversity of services for a diversity of sexualities.
So the dynamic is that primarily straight institutions are, slowly, recognizing gay/lesbian needs. Many of those same institutions are dragging their feet on bi/pan/queer recognition and needs because we complicate the picture in ways they find uncomfortable. (And this article is a demonstration of that.) It is also true that we're distinctly objectified and considered problematic by primarily straight culture. That's something that deserves its own conversations.
I went back and added "primarily straight" in multiple places for a reason. Don't reframe any of this as criticism of gay/lesbian people.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 11:10 AM on April 11, 2019 [7 favorites]
There has long been an institutional bias within primarily straight health care, politics, and mass media of anti-bisexual bias and bi erasure. That reflects dichotomous models of sexuality going back to Freud, but you still encounter it from many health professionals. In the 1980s bi men were scapegoated as reasons why we need criminal transmission of HIV laws, but none of the relevant health agencies were collecting data about MSMW distinct from MSM. Heterosexual transmission of HIV is a problem, but no one bothered to collect data specifically about MSMW or their female partners. I posted my bibliography of research regarding anti-bisexual violence and negative health outcomes for bi people. In some of those cases, the results for bi people were pushed off of the abstract or burried out of the lede of the press release. One study reported that schools with GSAs helped gay and lesbian teens, but had no impact on bi teens. Only the favorable results for gay/lesbian teens made it into the lede. It's still pretty common to see primarily straight research that aggregates gay, lesbian, and bisexual people assuming homogeneity. In journalism, it's common to see "LGBT" used once and "gay" or "gay/lesbian" used throughout.
That has impact on primarily straight clinical practice as well, with a fair number of providers who actively gaslight clients on the theory (dating back to Freud) that bisexuality is either immature homosexuality or kinky heterosexuality. My current provider is the first who's not challenged me on being monogamous, comfortable in my current relationship, and not being sexually active.
Of course, that's selective, the Family Research Council is using this sexual fluidity discussion this week to argue that sexual orientation is mutable and, therefore, not a protected class in civil rights terms. So we're visible when it's convenient to argue against civil rights on the grounds that we're sex fiends, but invisible when primarily straight stakeholders are asked to provide a diversity of services for a diversity of sexualities.
So the dynamic is that primarily straight institutions are, slowly, recognizing gay/lesbian needs. Many of those same institutions are dragging their feet on bi/pan/queer recognition and needs because we complicate the picture in ways they find uncomfortable. (And this article is a demonstration of that.) It is also true that we're distinctly objectified and considered problematic by primarily straight culture. That's something that deserves its own conversations.
I went back and added "primarily straight" in multiple places for a reason. Don't reframe any of this as criticism of gay/lesbian people.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 11:10 AM on April 11, 2019 [7 favorites]
All of this talk about being or not being a "visible member of the community" and "passing for straight" just seems super White to me.
I had no LGBTQ community growing up in Malaysia. I had no way of being "visible", not when the notion of sexuality itself (straight or not) was demonized. It wasn't until I moved overseas that I got to do anything about my queerness at all - and even then I was dogged with "you write like a straight woman" and "you lie to lesbians to sleep with them" (actual fucking quote) and "do you know this space is for lesbians only" (literally the same time as a a friend who i know is straight is walking past unquestioned) because I'm brown and because I've dated a man. (I think people would be more forgiving of my male partner if I was white; I don't think I could ever pass as queer even if I never dated men ever.)
I'm lucky in that I don't face as much familial or cultural pressure to end up marrying a man. (My family doesn't entirely get my queerness and they still miss my ex boyfriend, but they've been better about it than I expected) I don't know what would happen if I had just stayed in Malaysia. Would I just be single forever? Have something long distance? End up marrying a man down the line? I could walk around in an Alternative Lifestyle Haircut all day (oh God don't get me started on my distaste for coding by attire) and it's only going to mean "weird" at best, "a threat" more likely. But even Western queers don't read me as one with my ALH, let alone if I looked more "normal".
And if I did end up just being with a man for whatever reason - would that be straight privilege, or would that be having to be super careful not to reveal any shade of queerness lest I be arrested or attacked? Queer people in my culture are being forced or coerced into heterosexual loveless marriages to keep up appearances, is that straight privilege? The Malaysian government is currently going after the organisers of the Women's March in KL for "hosting an illegal LGBT gathering" because some of the marchers showed up with rainbow flags and pro LGBTQ signs - you think any of them would be saved if they said they were straight?
I was at a panel about people of colour and LGBTQ concerns many years ago and one of the panelists talked about two Sudanese refugee women who've fallen in love and don't know how to deal with what other people think. They asked a counselor, who said they should live their truth and come out. BAD IDEA. The Sudanese community ostracized them for being gay and the gay community ostracized them for being Sudanese. But y'know, they aren't a "visible member of the community" because they don't look gay and gay people don't look like Sudanese refugees so y'know, privilege, right?
Also, all these accusations that one side or another is demanding emotional labour from you, specifically, is off-base. This is an open forum. If they were messaging you personally then yes, that applies. But no one is expecting you personally to respond to them. They're just talking openly.
posted by divabat at 12:15 PM on April 11, 2019 [18 favorites]
I had no LGBTQ community growing up in Malaysia. I had no way of being "visible", not when the notion of sexuality itself (straight or not) was demonized. It wasn't until I moved overseas that I got to do anything about my queerness at all - and even then I was dogged with "you write like a straight woman" and "you lie to lesbians to sleep with them" (actual fucking quote) and "do you know this space is for lesbians only" (literally the same time as a a friend who i know is straight is walking past unquestioned) because I'm brown and because I've dated a man. (I think people would be more forgiving of my male partner if I was white; I don't think I could ever pass as queer even if I never dated men ever.)
I'm lucky in that I don't face as much familial or cultural pressure to end up marrying a man. (My family doesn't entirely get my queerness and they still miss my ex boyfriend, but they've been better about it than I expected) I don't know what would happen if I had just stayed in Malaysia. Would I just be single forever? Have something long distance? End up marrying a man down the line? I could walk around in an Alternative Lifestyle Haircut all day (oh God don't get me started on my distaste for coding by attire) and it's only going to mean "weird" at best, "a threat" more likely. But even Western queers don't read me as one with my ALH, let alone if I looked more "normal".
And if I did end up just being with a man for whatever reason - would that be straight privilege, or would that be having to be super careful not to reveal any shade of queerness lest I be arrested or attacked? Queer people in my culture are being forced or coerced into heterosexual loveless marriages to keep up appearances, is that straight privilege? The Malaysian government is currently going after the organisers of the Women's March in KL for "hosting an illegal LGBT gathering" because some of the marchers showed up with rainbow flags and pro LGBTQ signs - you think any of them would be saved if they said they were straight?
I was at a panel about people of colour and LGBTQ concerns many years ago and one of the panelists talked about two Sudanese refugee women who've fallen in love and don't know how to deal with what other people think. They asked a counselor, who said they should live their truth and come out. BAD IDEA. The Sudanese community ostracized them for being gay and the gay community ostracized them for being Sudanese. But y'know, they aren't a "visible member of the community" because they don't look gay and gay people don't look like Sudanese refugees so y'know, privilege, right?
Also, all these accusations that one side or another is demanding emotional labour from you, specifically, is off-base. This is an open forum. If they were messaging you personally then yes, that applies. But no one is expecting you personally to respond to them. They're just talking openly.
posted by divabat at 12:15 PM on April 11, 2019 [18 favorites]
Also: I know the seductive nature of dropping men for women because male socialisation is terrible, but dating women is not some paradise either. My worst relationship ever was with a woman - abusive, emotionally manipulative, made me her verbal punching bag. I was sexually assaulted by a woman. I've had queer women treat me as disposable, use me up, not care.
I've also had good relationships with women, whether serious or casual. But there's no real correlation between gender and relationship quality, in my experience. I've only had one romanticrelationship with a man (a straight cis man, even) and that was the best romantic relationship I've had, even when we ended up not being sexually compatible anymore. One of my best friends is a gay cis man and he's treating me better than even some of my good romantic relationships. I know so many other queer women who've been mistreated by women (including other victims of my ex who I'm best friends with now) and who feel alienated by the whole "wlw relationships are so pure and good! Women are far better than men in dating!" thing because that hasn't been our experience. Hell, it took me a while to find people who accepted my sexual assault story for what it is.
Fucked-up people and fucked-up relationships come in many forms.
posted by divabat at 12:29 PM on April 11, 2019 [16 favorites]
I've also had good relationships with women, whether serious or casual. But there's no real correlation between gender and relationship quality, in my experience. I've only had one romanticrelationship with a man (a straight cis man, even) and that was the best romantic relationship I've had, even when we ended up not being sexually compatible anymore. One of my best friends is a gay cis man and he's treating me better than even some of my good romantic relationships. I know so many other queer women who've been mistreated by women (including other victims of my ex who I'm best friends with now) and who feel alienated by the whole "wlw relationships are so pure and good! Women are far better than men in dating!" thing because that hasn't been our experience. Hell, it took me a while to find people who accepted my sexual assault story for what it is.
Fucked-up people and fucked-up relationships come in many forms.
posted by divabat at 12:29 PM on April 11, 2019 [16 favorites]
But I still have trouble seeing the world where heteros let homos into "the mono group" so we could oppress non-monos together.
No, that doesn't happen and I don't think anyone has said it does.
Anyway, I appreciate the perspective, bile and syntax. But I see what's described in the article as something that's not entirely due to these women not wanting to give up straight privilege and/or associate themselves with queerness, though I do think that's definitely a factor--for example, the grief some of these women feel at describing their sexuality in a way that wipes out significant past relationships with men seems very real to me.
I've had bi women get mad at me for not having a list of bi resources ready for them, and for not understanding how awkward it would be for them to give up a privilege I've never had, and if my response is anything other than endless tea and sympathy and the reassurances that they're "just as queer" as I am even though I walk my talk every day and they've never stepped out from behind the safety of straight privilege
Straight-passing privilege is really complicated for me, as someone who is not gender conforming, who was repressing what I later realized was a trans spectrum identity, and for whom that privilege came with huge doses of mental health shit. The closet is really toxic. There are studies that show that, too. But it feels difficult to talk about how something that looks like safety to someone who faces more overt prejudice is actually skin crawling self-hatred. I'll be honest: this stuff is really personal and really raw for me, and something I'd be happy to chat more with about through memail for personal reasons. It's just . . . super hard and super personal. idk.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 1:53 PM on April 11, 2019 [5 favorites]
No, that doesn't happen and I don't think anyone has said it does.
Anyway, I appreciate the perspective, bile and syntax. But I see what's described in the article as something that's not entirely due to these women not wanting to give up straight privilege and/or associate themselves with queerness, though I do think that's definitely a factor--for example, the grief some of these women feel at describing their sexuality in a way that wipes out significant past relationships with men seems very real to me.
I've had bi women get mad at me for not having a list of bi resources ready for them, and for not understanding how awkward it would be for them to give up a privilege I've never had, and if my response is anything other than endless tea and sympathy and the reassurances that they're "just as queer" as I am even though I walk my talk every day and they've never stepped out from behind the safety of straight privilege
Straight-passing privilege is really complicated for me, as someone who is not gender conforming, who was repressing what I later realized was a trans spectrum identity, and for whom that privilege came with huge doses of mental health shit. The closet is really toxic. There are studies that show that, too. But it feels difficult to talk about how something that looks like safety to someone who faces more overt prejudice is actually skin crawling self-hatred. I'll be honest: this stuff is really personal and really raw for me, and something I'd be happy to chat more with about through memail for personal reasons. It's just . . . super hard and super personal. idk.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 1:53 PM on April 11, 2019 [5 favorites]
One of the double standards I hate about "the discourse" is that killing yourself in the closet slowly is a tragedy for gay, lesbian, and trans people, but immunity and privilege for bi people.
I don't do community work because it's fun, although sometimes it is. I do it because I think I'll be dead in 10 years if I don't. It's like giving up smoking when you already have that nagging tickle and the marginal blood pressure numbers.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 2:38 PM on April 11, 2019 [17 favorites]
I don't do community work because it's fun, although sometimes it is. I do it because I think I'll be dead in 10 years if I don't. It's like giving up smoking when you already have that nagging tickle and the marginal blood pressure numbers.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 2:38 PM on April 11, 2019 [17 favorites]
even though I walk my talk every day
What does this look like, in practice? Is this based on particular clothing? Do you talk about your sexuality every day? Are you always out with a female partner? Do you act or behave in particular ways? Do you post online about lesbian rights every day? Do you do something that leads to people knowing you're lesbian just by looking at you? Do people immediately believe you?
Because they certainly don't believe people of colour even when they do all of the above super openly. Not even other lesbians believe them. (I've seen this happen with lesbian trans women too - "you can't be lesbian, you're a man, you're pretending")
And yet - imagine being in a world where doing anything that remotely hints at being queer gets you in serious trouble. Like a schoolboy in Malaysia who got beaten to death for being effeminate. Do you think that any queer person who decides to stay in the closet given these circumstances are somehow more privileged than you, even when they're constantly having to monitor themselves to not accidentally reveal their "deviance"?
Are you doing anything to make it safer for people to be out, or are you going to take out your frustrations on other queer people who were hoping that maybe you'd be more sympathetic and resourceful compared to the straight world because hey, you're both under the same umbrella, right? Who's more likely to know anything about how to deal with not being straight - a straight person, or someone who "walks the talk"?
posted by divabat at 3:59 PM on April 11, 2019 [8 favorites]
What does this look like, in practice? Is this based on particular clothing? Do you talk about your sexuality every day? Are you always out with a female partner? Do you act or behave in particular ways? Do you post online about lesbian rights every day? Do you do something that leads to people knowing you're lesbian just by looking at you? Do people immediately believe you?
Because they certainly don't believe people of colour even when they do all of the above super openly. Not even other lesbians believe them. (I've seen this happen with lesbian trans women too - "you can't be lesbian, you're a man, you're pretending")
And yet - imagine being in a world where doing anything that remotely hints at being queer gets you in serious trouble. Like a schoolboy in Malaysia who got beaten to death for being effeminate. Do you think that any queer person who decides to stay in the closet given these circumstances are somehow more privileged than you, even when they're constantly having to monitor themselves to not accidentally reveal their "deviance"?
Are you doing anything to make it safer for people to be out, or are you going to take out your frustrations on other queer people who were hoping that maybe you'd be more sympathetic and resourceful compared to the straight world because hey, you're both under the same umbrella, right? Who's more likely to know anything about how to deal with not being straight - a straight person, or someone who "walks the talk"?
posted by divabat at 3:59 PM on April 11, 2019 [8 favorites]
it's sure as shit not made any easier when straight people (or people who haven't lived as a visible part of the community, or don't have much experience, or haven't kept up with anything that's happened in the last ten years, all of which absolutely matters) barge in to have opinions all over the place about how that community functions.
I've been staying out of the second half of this thread because I'm new and I don't have decades of experience in the queer community to draw on. But ... this is a thread explicitly about people who don't have much experience.
And honestly, now that I think about it, it kind of sucks that this thread turned into a conversation that I felt I had no place in. The experience of people coming out later in life is its own unique thing, with unique challenges, some of which are related to relationships with people who have been out for a long time, but some of which are totally separate from that.
This thread has also made me feel exquisitely grateful for the warm welcome I have received from my own queer community. Nothing has made me feel better or more whole than the way I've been treated by queer people I've met in real life since I've started coming out. The support and love and fun have meant so much. I am so sorry not everyone has that experience, but I think every queer person who treats the community with respect deserves that in return.
posted by lunasol at 5:12 PM on April 11, 2019 [13 favorites]
I've been staying out of the second half of this thread because I'm new and I don't have decades of experience in the queer community to draw on. But ... this is a thread explicitly about people who don't have much experience.
And honestly, now that I think about it, it kind of sucks that this thread turned into a conversation that I felt I had no place in. The experience of people coming out later in life is its own unique thing, with unique challenges, some of which are related to relationships with people who have been out for a long time, but some of which are totally separate from that.
This thread has also made me feel exquisitely grateful for the warm welcome I have received from my own queer community. Nothing has made me feel better or more whole than the way I've been treated by queer people I've met in real life since I've started coming out. The support and love and fun have meant so much. I am so sorry not everyone has that experience, but I think every queer person who treats the community with respect deserves that in return.
posted by lunasol at 5:12 PM on April 11, 2019 [13 favorites]
Also, I meant to post this yesterday, but since I critiqued the article, this page has some resources I think are a lot better, including some articles about internalized homophobia and the specific psychological issues a lot of people who come out later experience or have experienced.
This is a blog by a woman who came out in her 50s - she also has information for the Facebook group she runs for women coming out later in life, which has been a really great community for me these past few months, in case anyone here is lurking and could use that community.
And finally, there's a fascinating podcast called Latter Day Lesbian by a woman who was Mormon. At age 40, with 7 kids (!!!) she left the faith, came out as a lesbian, divorced her husband, and later married a woman. She and her wife host the podcast and it's rambly but adorable.
posted by lunasol at 5:19 PM on April 11, 2019 [6 favorites]
This is a blog by a woman who came out in her 50s - she also has information for the Facebook group she runs for women coming out later in life, which has been a really great community for me these past few months, in case anyone here is lurking and could use that community.
And finally, there's a fascinating podcast called Latter Day Lesbian by a woman who was Mormon. At age 40, with 7 kids (!!!) she left the faith, came out as a lesbian, divorced her husband, and later married a woman. She and her wife host the podcast and it's rambly but adorable.
posted by lunasol at 5:19 PM on April 11, 2019 [6 favorites]
Mod note: A couple deleted; things have gotten heated, and name-calling isn't going to fly.
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 3:27 PM on April 12, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 3:27 PM on April 12, 2019 [3 favorites]
I know two people who had situations as described in the article, where their sexual orientation suddenly flipped later in life. In one case, the woman has children and an ex-husband. It's been emotionally hard on the family. You have to wonder "has my mother been living in a painful closet all those years?" "Was the relationship between my parents real?" I have a lot of sympathy for everyone involved.
(In both the cases that I know of, by their own admission they were solidly hetero before this happened.)
posted by tofu_crouton at 7:41 AM on April 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
(In both the cases that I know of, by their own admission they were solidly hetero before this happened.)
posted by tofu_crouton at 7:41 AM on April 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
Here's my working bibliography. The primary reason that's been sparsely updated over the last year has been due to Google's redesign of News and depreciation of their feeds. That includes both small-scale surveys and number crunching on national statistics.
GenderNullPointerException, as someone who has nothing useful to contribute to the thread but has been learning a lot from it - thanks for this.
posted by AdamCSnider at 2:31 PM on April 13, 2019
GenderNullPointerException, as someone who has nothing useful to contribute to the thread but has been learning a lot from it - thanks for this.
posted by AdamCSnider at 2:31 PM on April 13, 2019
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It was a time when they began to individuate.
OK, I did not wait til my early 40s to develop my sense of self, can I have my "fluidity" epiphany now? Being attracted virtually exclusively to men is kind of a drag when so few of them are marriage material.
posted by praemunire at 10:11 AM on April 9, 2019 [61 favorites]