The Markup suffers editorial shakeup
April 30, 2019 7:26 AM Subscribe
The Markup is an attempt at bringing data-driven journalism to bear on Silicon Valley. Julia Angwin and Jeff Larson of ProPublica teamed up with Sue Gardner, the former executive director of the Wikimedia Foundation to start the site, and they secured $20 million in funding from Craig "Craigslist" Newmark. The site was intended to start publishing this year, but last week, Angwin was fired and five of the site's seven reporters resigned in protest.
CJR says that Gardner felt Angwin wasn't growing into a leadership role, while Angwin says "[Gardner] would never give me a reason.", and Larson apologizes for "how this was handled in our newsroom."
CJR says that Gardner felt Angwin wasn't growing into a leadership role, while Angwin says "[Gardner] would never give me a reason.", and Larson apologizes for "how this was handled in our newsroom."
From that first link which is basically just a pinned pitch page:
Follow our progress.
posted by philip-random at 7:49 AM on April 30, 2019
Follow our progress.
posted by philip-random at 7:49 AM on April 30, 2019
He majority of American business culture is just some form of pyramid scheme mixed with Est.
posted by The Whelk at 7:57 AM on April 30, 2019 [35 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 7:57 AM on April 30, 2019 [35 favorites]
from eyeballing a little bit of this on Twitter over the past week or so, it seems as though the whole dang world of journalism has a lot of faith in Angwin (who's countered the offensive against her with receipts, on twitter). I don't think Gardner and Larson have a strong hand against the rest of their colleagues, here.
posted by entropone at 8:06 AM on April 30, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by entropone at 8:06 AM on April 30, 2019 [6 favorites]
The majority of American business culture is just some form of pyramid scheme mixed with Est.
That so much of modern, mainstream management culture is rooted in the Human Potential Movement, the libertarian end of the 1960s counterculture and their descendants - and that that has been obscured or forgotten - really begs for a well-written, popular history. I've seen in touched on in many places, but never tackled head-on.
Can’t help but love the idea that a senior manager at a “data-driven” news site got fired in part because she refused to take a pseudo-scientific personality test based on Jungian archetypes with no statistical validity.
It really goes a long way toward explaining the overtly cult-like internal or magical thinking-infused cultures of many Silicon Valley entities, and start-ups especially.
posted by ryanshepard at 8:07 AM on April 30, 2019 [35 favorites]
That so much of modern, mainstream management culture is rooted in the Human Potential Movement, the libertarian end of the 1960s counterculture and their descendants - and that that has been obscured or forgotten - really begs for a well-written, popular history. I've seen in touched on in many places, but never tackled head-on.
Can’t help but love the idea that a senior manager at a “data-driven” news site got fired in part because she refused to take a pseudo-scientific personality test based on Jungian archetypes with no statistical validity.
It really goes a long way toward explaining the overtly cult-like internal or magical thinking-infused cultures of many Silicon Valley entities, and start-ups especially.
posted by ryanshepard at 8:07 AM on April 30, 2019 [35 favorites]
They haven't updated their "About" page on the website. I wonder if anyone is left who knows how to.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:18 AM on April 30, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:18 AM on April 30, 2019 [2 favorites]
I wonder if anyone is left who knows how to.
In my experience the answer is generally no, no there are not.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:20 AM on April 30, 2019 [12 favorites]
In my experience the answer is generally no, no there are not.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:20 AM on April 30, 2019 [12 favorites]
mainstream management culture is rooted in the Human Potential Movement, the libertarian end of the 1960s counterculture and their descendants
Tangent: I'm rereading Dune for the first time since high school (I'm doing it a chapter at a time along with the excellent Let's Get Weirding podcast in preparation for the upcoming movie) and the thing that I'm noticing is how much that book's worldbuilding and character psychology partakes of the language and expectations of HPM, before all of that stuff got co-opted by big business in the name of productivity/efficiency.
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:26 AM on April 30, 2019 [16 favorites]
Tangent: I'm rereading Dune for the first time since high school (I'm doing it a chapter at a time along with the excellent Let's Get Weirding podcast in preparation for the upcoming movie) and the thing that I'm noticing is how much that book's worldbuilding and character psychology partakes of the language and expectations of HPM, before all of that stuff got co-opted by big business in the name of productivity/efficiency.
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:26 AM on April 30, 2019 [16 favorites]
It really goes a long way toward explaining the overtly cult-like internal or magical thinking-infused cultures of many Silicon Valley entities, and start-ups especially.
I won't be able to find it right now, but in Angwin's letter to Craig Newmark about what happened, she specifically mentions Gardner vetting candidates based on their attitudes towards tech companies and desire to do articles with titles like "Facebook is a Dumpster Fire". Tying this kind of thinking to Silicon Valley and not bad management in general seems a little pat. Bad management thinking is in a lot of places, and money is usually able to do whatever it wants, no matter the coast.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:31 AM on April 30, 2019 [4 favorites]
I won't be able to find it right now, but in Angwin's letter to Craig Newmark about what happened, she specifically mentions Gardner vetting candidates based on their attitudes towards tech companies and desire to do articles with titles like "Facebook is a Dumpster Fire". Tying this kind of thinking to Silicon Valley and not bad management in general seems a little pat. Bad management thinking is in a lot of places, and money is usually able to do whatever it wants, no matter the coast.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:31 AM on April 30, 2019 [4 favorites]
Yikes, this is ugly and more or less incomprehensible to someone from the outside.
I don't understand how wikimedia creates so much value when every story about anyone who has ever been involved with them seems to involve baboons beating each other with sticks. Stories like this make it clear just how lucky I am to have the colleagues that I do.
That I've gotten the same result on every Myers-Briggs test over three decades suggests that it's measuring something. Whether that something is better than a self-reported answer to the question, "what kind of person are you," is worth interrogating.
posted by eotvos at 8:33 AM on April 30, 2019 [4 favorites]
I don't understand how wikimedia creates so much value when every story about anyone who has ever been involved with them seems to involve baboons beating each other with sticks. Stories like this make it clear just how lucky I am to have the colleagues that I do.
That I've gotten the same result on every Myers-Briggs test over three decades suggests that it's measuring something. Whether that something is better than a self-reported answer to the question, "what kind of person are you," is worth interrogating.
posted by eotvos at 8:33 AM on April 30, 2019 [4 favorites]
This is a real shame. I've followed some of Larson and Angwin's work and thought Larson was really impressive when I saw him in a roundtable on algorithmic bias. We do need more reporting on this, so I hope everyone involved finds a workable platform.
posted by col_pogo at 8:36 AM on April 30, 2019
posted by col_pogo at 8:36 AM on April 30, 2019
Yikes! Though the scenario of, "X and Y, known for doing The Thing really well, got a big sack of money from VC funders to start The Thing Enterprises, and they brought in Management Pro Z, who promptly split up X and Y in the most toxic of ways, leaving everyone without a company purpose, but that big bag of money is somehow already spent" is pretty common.
posted by xingcat at 8:43 AM on April 30, 2019 [20 favorites]
posted by xingcat at 8:43 AM on April 30, 2019 [20 favorites]
Hard to tell WTF is happening but good grief whoever is giving PR advice to Gardner must be on drugs.
posted by JamesBay at 8:47 AM on April 30, 2019
posted by JamesBay at 8:47 AM on April 30, 2019
Personality testing is a management cult that really gets my goat more than others, and I haven't even been subjected to it.
My guess about why they're so popular is that, if they were accurate and scientific, it would be an easy, quantifiable way for management to make hiring, promotion, and other personnel decisions: "Position A needs an Enneagram type 9 or a Myers-Briggs INFJ, so we'll only hire people who test that way, and hey it looks like Enneagram type 6s tend to challenge management decisions a little too much so we're going to
filter those people out of any role that could cause trouble. Oh and if you just so happen to contain multitudes and fall between the neatly-defined types? You're an unknown quantity and too risky to hire. We'll go with a type 3, thanks!" I'll also leave aside how applicants will game those tests to get a specific type result they think is more likely to get hired.
Human beings are complex creatures that don't even fully understand themselves, not neatly-shaped pegs to put in neatly-shaped holes.
posted by Grimp0teuthis at 8:57 AM on April 30, 2019 [16 favorites]
My guess about why they're so popular is that, if they were accurate and scientific, it would be an easy, quantifiable way for management to make hiring, promotion, and other personnel decisions: "Position A needs an Enneagram type 9 or a Myers-Briggs INFJ, so we'll only hire people who test that way, and hey it looks like Enneagram type 6s tend to challenge management decisions a little too much so we're going to
filter those people out of any role that could cause trouble. Oh and if you just so happen to contain multitudes and fall between the neatly-defined types? You're an unknown quantity and too risky to hire. We'll go with a type 3, thanks!" I'll also leave aside how applicants will game those tests to get a specific type result they think is more likely to get hired.
Human beings are complex creatures that don't even fully understand themselves, not neatly-shaped pegs to put in neatly-shaped holes.
posted by Grimp0teuthis at 8:57 AM on April 30, 2019 [16 favorites]
Just like every other personality test tied to an employment process, Myers-Briggs give a nice scientific sheen to the unexamined biases of people doing the hiring, allowing said biases to remain both in play and unexamined.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 9:37 AM on April 30, 2019 [28 favorites]
posted by lefty lucky cat at 9:37 AM on April 30, 2019 [28 favorites]
At our last mandated modified Myers-Brigg (it gives colours instead of letters, but is otherwise the same damn thing), I protested by answering "A" to every multiple-choice question without reading the question. Once my results were published, every boss I had kept commenting on how well the results described me. I should have just posted my Zodiac sign.
posted by Mogur at 9:39 AM on April 30, 2019 [48 favorites]
posted by Mogur at 9:39 AM on April 30, 2019 [48 favorites]
I was once sold to a company in Silicon Valley. A few months in, a CxO sent out an email about the "leadergy" emitting from a gland between his eyes that would make us do what he was thinking.
Shortly after, we were told that we didn't know what we were doing, and we would mostly be laid off, after the parent company spent >$100 million to acquire us specifically for our expertise.
So. Yeah. Silicon valley.
posted by cowcowgrasstree at 9:44 AM on April 30, 2019 [24 favorites]
Shortly after, we were told that we didn't know what we were doing, and we would mostly be laid off, after the parent company spent >$100 million to acquire us specifically for our expertise.
So. Yeah. Silicon valley.
posted by cowcowgrasstree at 9:44 AM on April 30, 2019 [24 favorites]
if one of the multiple choice options isn't UNCERTAIN, the test in question is broken, perhaps evil. Because the correct answer to every question is UNCERTAIN.
I learned this from The Organization Man (1956)
posted by philip-random at 9:45 AM on April 30, 2019 [3 favorites]
I learned this from The Organization Man (1956)
posted by philip-random at 9:45 AM on April 30, 2019 [3 favorites]
Because the correct answer to every question is UNCERTAIN.
I'm not so sure about that...
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:50 AM on April 30, 2019 [17 favorites]
I'm not so sure about that...
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:50 AM on April 30, 2019 [17 favorites]
> Hard to tell WTF is happening but good grief whoever is giving PR advice to Gardner must be on drugs.
Larson too. The tone of that Medium piece is terrible. He sounds like the teacher's pet arguing his way out of detention after he and his friends got caught cutting class.
Both Julia and I, having not run newsrooms at this level, were asked to participate in management training and coaching. Recognizing my own shortcomings, I jumped at the opportunity. Julia refused, and was not interested in any of the support offered, and did not want any feedback.
posted by smelendez at 9:59 AM on April 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
Larson too. The tone of that Medium piece is terrible. He sounds like the teacher's pet arguing his way out of detention after he and his friends got caught cutting class.
Both Julia and I, having not run newsrooms at this level, were asked to participate in management training and coaching. Recognizing my own shortcomings, I jumped at the opportunity. Julia refused, and was not interested in any of the support offered, and did not want any feedback.
posted by smelendez at 9:59 AM on April 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
At an old job I got in trouble for “pushing back” on having to attend a three-part seminar series using Myers-Briggs and the color testing to help us “improve” our “leadership” and “communication” “styles.” Not a start-up but a much more traditional business. At the very same time, there were questions brewing among the female employees in the economy class (me included) about why there were so few women with leadership roles. And yet we were the ones who needed the training in the magic of “leaning in” and crap like that.
I think it’s more than coincidental that much of corporate HR is trained to busy itself by pushing around lower level employees and hiring processes, while the same old sexist and racist stuff goes unchecked at the higher levels.
posted by sallybrown at 10:09 AM on April 30, 2019 [13 favorites]
I think it’s more than coincidental that much of corporate HR is trained to busy itself by pushing around lower level employees and hiring processes, while the same old sexist and racist stuff goes unchecked at the higher levels.
posted by sallybrown at 10:09 AM on April 30, 2019 [13 favorites]
To add to that thought—I wonder what would happen if you used the money spent on “management coaching” to interview the 25% lowest-paid employees at the company about their experience working with leadership, and then recommended changes based on their experiences?
posted by sallybrown at 10:24 AM on April 30, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by sallybrown at 10:24 AM on April 30, 2019 [5 favorites]
My guess about why they're so popular is that, if they were accurate and scientific, it would be an easy, quantifiable way for management to make hiring, promotion, and other personnel decisions: "Position A needs an Enneagram type 9 or a Myers-Briggs INFJ, so we'll only hire people who test that way, and hey it looks like Enneagram type 6s tend to challenge management decisions a little too much so we're going to filter those people out of any role that could cause trouble.
I worry deeply about this kind of discrimination - both on a justice level (people shouldn't be excluded from jobs based on a questionable test) and on a practical level: maybe it's better to have a variety of personalities working in similar roles, because they'll bring different perspectives and strengths to the overall team. Research has suggested that leadership diversity in gender, race, etc., is correlated with better success for the organization, and I wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't true at all levels.
Disclosure: I am also biased against Myers-Briggs. I'm an anti-Jungian, and also it's totally not reliable for me (my "type" changes depending on my mood).
posted by jb at 10:35 AM on April 30, 2019 [2 favorites]
I worry deeply about this kind of discrimination - both on a justice level (people shouldn't be excluded from jobs based on a questionable test) and on a practical level: maybe it's better to have a variety of personalities working in similar roles, because they'll bring different perspectives and strengths to the overall team. Research has suggested that leadership diversity in gender, race, etc., is correlated with better success for the organization, and I wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't true at all levels.
Disclosure: I am also biased against Myers-Briggs. I'm an anti-Jungian, and also it's totally not reliable for me (my "type" changes depending on my mood).
posted by jb at 10:35 AM on April 30, 2019 [2 favorites]
The good news is that Angwin is a national treasure, and I have no doubt that she'll succeed at whatever comes next. It's a shame though, I was really looking forward to The Markup.
posted by matrixclown at 10:38 AM on April 30, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by matrixclown at 10:38 AM on April 30, 2019 [3 favorites]
When I lived in Chicago, I could not get a job anywhere, because something about the way I took those MBTI screening tests kept flagging me as a liar (you're supposed to sound great, but not TOO great). I got calls from a couple different companies, but I never heard from a single place that used an MBTI "pre-application" screen. I'm not talking upper management positions here; I was getting screened out of grocery store jobs. This was at the height of the post-2008 recession, and I ended up having to leave Chicago flat broke (which also ended a promising relationship, and I'm obviously still bitter about that).
Ironically, this feels like the sort of tech-driven nightmare dystopia that The Markup probably would have been great at covering.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 10:53 AM on April 30, 2019 [7 favorites]
Ironically, this feels like the sort of tech-driven nightmare dystopia that The Markup probably would have been great at covering.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 10:53 AM on April 30, 2019 [7 favorites]
The colors thing you all did was Ntrinsx, right? We all got a stack of Legos corresponding to our results and were expected to display them at our desks.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 11:36 AM on April 30, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by fluttering hellfire at 11:36 AM on April 30, 2019 [2 favorites]
We all got a stack of Legos corresponding to our results and were expected to display them at our desks.
That is such corporate bullshit that I want to start my OWN journalism project just to write article after article about it. I am currently accepting VC funding.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 11:48 AM on April 30, 2019 [11 favorites]
That is such corporate bullshit that I want to start my OWN journalism project just to write article after article about it. I am currently accepting VC funding.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 11:48 AM on April 30, 2019 [11 favorites]
The colors thing you all did was Ntrinsx, right? We all got a stack of Legos corresponding to our results and were expected to display them at our desks.
Yes, exactly down to the Legos, except ours was called Insights and the Legos are oversized and made of foam. This is like the part of Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? where he discovers the parallel agency that does the Arc Reflex test instead of the Voight-Kampff.
posted by Copronymus at 12:18 PM on April 30, 2019 [12 favorites]
Yes, exactly down to the Legos, except ours was called Insights and the Legos are oversized and made of foam. This is like the part of Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? where he discovers the parallel agency that does the Arc Reflex test instead of the Voight-Kampff.
posted by Copronymus at 12:18 PM on April 30, 2019 [12 favorites]
Yep. Luckily, the bricks are soft foam rubber, so can be thrown at the wall when frustrated.
posted by Mogur at 12:19 PM on April 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Mogur at 12:19 PM on April 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
the last place I worked encouraged (but did not mandate) everyone to do a personality test based on DISC assessment, which is basically the same kind of tool as Myers-Briggs or MMPI, but has the distinction of being invented by psychologist, polyamory advocate, bondage enthusiast, and Wonder Woman creator William Moulton Marston.
it is not as fun as that pedigree might indicate.
posted by murphy slaw at 12:20 PM on April 30, 2019 [9 favorites]
it is not as fun as that pedigree might indicate.
posted by murphy slaw at 12:20 PM on April 30, 2019 [9 favorites]
> > Hard to tell WTF is happening but good grief whoever is giving PR advice to Gardner must be on drugs.
Larson too. The tone of that Medium piece is terrible. He sounds like the teacher's pet arguing his way out of detention after he and his friends got caught cutting class.
This is generally a sign that the players are completely ignoring their PR person. Their PR person is probably walking in circles in the "wellness room" muttering to themselves through a bottle of whiskey.
posted by desuetude at 12:27 PM on April 30, 2019 [14 favorites]
Larson too. The tone of that Medium piece is terrible. He sounds like the teacher's pet arguing his way out of detention after he and his friends got caught cutting class.
This is generally a sign that the players are completely ignoring their PR person. Their PR person is probably walking in circles in the "wellness room" muttering to themselves through a bottle of whiskey.
posted by desuetude at 12:27 PM on April 30, 2019 [14 favorites]
Marston also played a large role in the invention and popularization of the polygraph, which should indicate how reliable DISC is.
posted by Chrysostom at 12:28 PM on April 30, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Chrysostom at 12:28 PM on April 30, 2019 [2 favorites]
it's called a Lasso of Truth Chrysostom
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:30 PM on April 30, 2019 [30 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:30 PM on April 30, 2019 [30 favorites]
I had to do one of those DISC assessments as part of a job application (I've also had to do some of the others, the names of which I don't remember). Somehow, despite a really strong pre-interview/telephone interview, I never called called in for a formal interview. I'm assuming it's because of the results of that stupid test. Maybe it's my fault. I read up everything I could on the test, and tried to ensure that my results were essentially in line with who I am and the type of employee that I think a company would want in that position, but I guess I seriously misjudged that last bit. I'm starting to suspect that I have a completely different view of the character traits that an employee working in the type of role I was seeking (and have worked in my entire career) should have. Actually, that would likely explain a lot of things about my career.
posted by sardonyx at 12:30 PM on April 30, 2019
posted by sardonyx at 12:30 PM on April 30, 2019
The majority of American business culture is just some form of pyramid scheme mixed with Est.
Long time ago I worked for a small company that was run by a whole bunch of people who were into Est. The head of the company wanted to become a Werner Erhard clone EST trainer. But Werner said no. So he started up the second personal computer company IMSAI. Working there was weird. Loads of EST jargon and management practice out of Alice in Wonderland. I lasted there for nine months. Over the years I worked at more tech companies who always seemed to latch on to the latest management new age cult. Having a degree in Religious Studies made it fun as I played corporate anthropologist listening to the jargon.
posted by njohnson23 at 12:34 PM on April 30, 2019 [12 favorites]
Long time ago I worked for a small company that was run by a whole bunch of people who were into Est. The head of the company wanted to become a Werner Erhard clone EST trainer. But Werner said no. So he started up the second personal computer company IMSAI. Working there was weird. Loads of EST jargon and management practice out of Alice in Wonderland. I lasted there for nine months. Over the years I worked at more tech companies who always seemed to latch on to the latest management new age cult. Having a degree in Religious Studies made it fun as I played corporate anthropologist listening to the jargon.
posted by njohnson23 at 12:34 PM on April 30, 2019 [12 favorites]
The first paragraph of the about page on Gardner's personal site is pseudoscientific-personality-test word salad:
posted by enn at 12:50 PM on April 30, 2019 [8 favorites]
Useful stuff to know about me: I’m an INTJ who can summon up E and F when I need to. Lawful neutral. Direct but Canadian. Individualistic. Low power distance. Warrior Ruler Sage. FIRO-B Undersocial Rebellious Personal. Choleric.She's really into this stuff.
posted by enn at 12:50 PM on April 30, 2019 [8 favorites]
where the hell's her love language, attachment style, and Hogwarts house? mediocre!
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:52 PM on April 30, 2019 [30 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:52 PM on April 30, 2019 [30 favorites]
The first paragraph of the about page on Gardner's personal site is pseudoscientific-personality-test word salad:
is that a CV or a usenet signature block from rec.arts.startrek circa 1994
posted by murphy slaw at 12:57 PM on April 30, 2019 [44 favorites]
is that a CV or a usenet signature block from rec.arts.startrek circa 1994
posted by murphy slaw at 12:57 PM on April 30, 2019 [44 favorites]
The majority of American business culture is just some form of pyramid scheme mixed with Est.
I've never even heard of "Est." - what is this?
Also: the D&D alignment chart is perfectly evidence-based. I mean, so long as you're an elf or something.
posted by jb at 12:59 PM on April 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
I've never even heard of "Est." - what is this?
Also: the D&D alignment chart is perfectly evidence-based. I mean, so long as you're an elf or something.
posted by jb at 12:59 PM on April 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
One more thing... The book The Organization Man mentioned above has an appendix describing how to cheat on personality tests. Written in the late fifties when personality tests were mandatory everywhere, he notes in later editions these tests were banned. The appendix I guess is still useful.
posted by njohnson23 at 1:01 PM on April 30, 2019
posted by njohnson23 at 1:01 PM on April 30, 2019
Wikipedia on Est - aka Erhard Seminars Training, but it always goes by est in my experience.
posted by LobsterMitten at 1:09 PM on April 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by LobsterMitten at 1:09 PM on April 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
I was super excited for The Markup to launch, because it seemed like they were building a newsroom that was actually going to be able to dig deep at a technical level into stuff like the gory guts of adtech or algorithmic black boxes and produce meaningful stories about the implications of technical decisions. We desperately need that, and it's disappointing that doesn't seem to be coming anytime soon.
Anyway, when I was in middle school, some woman showed up and made us all take Myers-Briggs tests. I was deeply uncomfortable with it then, and I concluded it was all a bunch of nonsense. That was a good lesson to learn early.
posted by zachlipton at 1:11 PM on April 30, 2019 [4 favorites]
Anyway, when I was in middle school, some woman showed up and made us all take Myers-Briggs tests. I was deeply uncomfortable with it then, and I concluded it was all a bunch of nonsense. That was a good lesson to learn early.
posted by zachlipton at 1:11 PM on April 30, 2019 [4 favorites]
What gets me about this is that they've apparently blown $20 million while producing absolutely nothing, in contrast with the many no-budget/low-budget/self-funded journalists and websites who actually manage to publish useful work on a regular basis while making very little money themselves. What a racket!
posted by Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner at 1:17 PM on April 30, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner at 1:17 PM on April 30, 2019 [5 favorites]
est. Imagine spending around $500 in late seventies money to spend two weekends locked in a hotel ballroom, sitting on a chair, with very limited bathroom breaks, while a Preppie yells at you and calls you an asshole, interspersed with new age personal and interpersonal exercises that reveal hidden mental powers, until such time that you “get it.” Getting it was the goal. What was “it?” You had to be there with a swollen bladder to know.
posted by njohnson23 at 1:35 PM on April 30, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 1:35 PM on April 30, 2019 [7 favorites]
CJR now has The hiring spreadsheet and the clash at The Markup, with an anonymized version of the spreadsheet ranking potential candidates they developed, apparently because Gardner straight up sent it to them. In particular, it includes a column for "social class," that appears to have been based on guesses about job applicants:
In conclusion:
A key below the spreadsheet explains some of Gardner’s thinking: “Obviously I am guessing here,” she writes of the column for social class. The criteria are: “1) very poor family background, 2) working class, 3) middle class, 4) slightly upper middle, and 5) super rich, super privileged.” (Another note suggests that “Wesleyan University, semester abroad, Columbia graduate school” and “went to state college” are also criteria for “class.”)Many journalists on Twitter have pointed out that making guesses about this stuff and translating them to numerical rankings is not a particularly good approach to newsroom diversity.
In conclusion:
Tom Gara from BuzzFeed said on Twitter that “the most important test of any investigative journalist is how vigorously they tell you to fuck off if you try to make them take a Myers-Briggs test;”posted by zachlipton at 1:36 PM on April 30, 2019 [18 favorites]
My current office is obsessed with DISC. I cannot emphasize how many times we've had to do DISC trainings and the hundreds (maybe thousands) of dollars spent on them. Such a waste. Might as well be laying on someone's twin bed taking quizzes out of Seventeen magazine. But the boss loves it, so gotta pretend to love it, too. I'm a personality test apostate (shhhhh).
There was this one job I wanted (waitress at a huge chain) that required a personality test as part of the online application. I took it a couple times and got an auto-reject email immediately following both, so finally my friend took it for me. He passed with flying colors, I guess, because I got the job. Stayed there for two years, made a fairly good living, left with a glowing reference. Maybe the chain was testing for Machiavellianism the whole time, though, and the joke's on me!
posted by rue72 at 2:04 PM on April 30, 2019 [4 favorites]
There was this one job I wanted (waitress at a huge chain) that required a personality test as part of the online application. I took it a couple times and got an auto-reject email immediately following both, so finally my friend took it for me. He passed with flying colors, I guess, because I got the job. Stayed there for two years, made a fairly good living, left with a glowing reference. Maybe the chain was testing for Machiavellianism the whole time, though, and the joke's on me!
posted by rue72 at 2:04 PM on April 30, 2019 [4 favorites]
The place Don Draper went in the last few episodes of Mad Men (the Esalen Institute) was not doing est, but was very much in the same vein, if that helps you get a feel for it.
posted by Chrysostom at 2:14 PM on April 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Chrysostom at 2:14 PM on April 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
making guesses about this stuff and translating them to numerical rankings is not a particularly good approach to newsroom diversity
Not to mention not exactly the most rigorous data driven journalism. ffs.
posted by gwint at 2:29 PM on April 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
Not to mention not exactly the most rigorous data driven journalism. ffs.
posted by gwint at 2:29 PM on April 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
In particular, it includes a column for "social class," that appears to have been based on guesses about job applicants
Is that... legal?
posted by clawsoon at 2:30 PM on April 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
Is that... legal?
posted by clawsoon at 2:30 PM on April 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
If people succeed in discrediting Myers-Briggs then its proponents will just move to Big 5 (or HEXACO or whatever). Which has more scientific imprimatur, is based on a seemingly-objective process, and will be harder to dislodge. Jordan Peterson’s pre-right-wing career involved a lot of work on Big Five personality traits.
posted by vogon_poet at 6:38 PM on April 30, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by vogon_poet at 6:38 PM on April 30, 2019 [2 favorites]
Uh, the Big 5 is one of the few scientifically replicable personality tests that has migrated into management?
Just because a not-great person studied a thing doesn't mean the thing is bad. Steven Pinker has (in my opinion) terrible views on women, but that doesn't mean his linguistics research was wrong.
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 7:30 PM on April 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
Just because a not-great person studied a thing doesn't mean the thing is bad. Steven Pinker has (in my opinion) terrible views on women, but that doesn't mean his linguistics research was wrong.
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 7:30 PM on April 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
There have been books written about the connections between the human potential movement and Silicon Valley.
posted by craniac at 8:44 PM on April 30, 2019
posted by craniac at 8:44 PM on April 30, 2019
>> In particular, it includes a column for "social class," that appears to
>> have been based on guesses about job applicants
>
> Is that... legal?
>
Sure. "Social class" is not a protected class for hiring decisions.
As per the EEO website: "[Protected] groups include men and women on the basis of sex; any group which shares a common race, religion, color, or national origin; people over 40; and people with physical or mental handicaps."
As long as it's not on the list you can discriminate based on anything you like.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:50 PM on April 30, 2019 [3 favorites]
>> have been based on guesses about job applicants
>
> Is that... legal?
>
Sure. "Social class" is not a protected class for hiring decisions.
As per the EEO website: "[Protected] groups include men and women on the basis of sex; any group which shares a common race, religion, color, or national origin; people over 40; and people with physical or mental handicaps."
As long as it's not on the list you can discriminate based on anything you like.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:50 PM on April 30, 2019 [3 favorites]
Frankly, I don't have a problem with the social class thing. I kinda like the idea that they were trying to hire people who didn't go to Yale or Harvard (at least I hope they were trying to go that way and not the reverse).
posted by crazy with stars at 10:06 PM on April 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by crazy with stars at 10:06 PM on April 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
gwint: "Not to mention not exactly the most rigorous data driven journalism. ffs."
Just the kind of carping I'd expect from a Capricorn.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:59 PM on April 30, 2019 [2 favorites]
Just the kind of carping I'd expect from a Capricorn.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:59 PM on April 30, 2019 [2 favorites]
The colors thing you all did was Ntrinsx, right? We all got a stack of Legos corresponding to our results and were expected to display them at our desks.
Turns out there is more than one version of the colors thing, and they use the fucking colors differently, so my attempt to reuse the Lego bricks from Job 1 to display on my desk at Job 2 was presumably totally misleading for anyone who was "reading" them.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 1:07 AM on May 1, 2019
Turns out there is more than one version of the colors thing, and they use the fucking colors differently, so my attempt to reuse the Lego bricks from Job 1 to display on my desk at Job 2 was presumably totally misleading for anyone who was "reading" them.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 1:07 AM on May 1, 2019
Psht! Everyone knows Voight-Kampff is the only standardized personality test worth using.
posted by evilDoug at 7:49 AM on May 1, 2019
posted by evilDoug at 7:49 AM on May 1, 2019
There’s nothing wrong with the Big Five as a scientific tool, especially for studying populations, but like management is not going to use any personality test correctly. They’re going to overinterpret the results, spin it into weird stories, and use it to confirm their biases. (Which is more or less what Jordan Peterson does with it now.)
posted by vogon_poet at 11:51 AM on May 1, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by vogon_poet at 11:51 AM on May 1, 2019 [4 favorites]
Also, the grammar demon compels me to point out this quote from the article: “The relationship between Julia and I was deteriorating, and so was the relationship between Julia and Jeff,” Gardner says, something Larson also confirmed to CJR. (emphasis added)
posted by Morpeth at 1:31 PM on May 1, 2019
posted by Morpeth at 1:31 PM on May 1, 2019
“It’s a Bonfire of the Vanities, and We’re All Insane Egomaniacs”: As the Markup Implodes, Craig Newmark Is Learning How Journalism Really Works - Vanity Fair
posted by ericost at 7:24 AM on May 2, 2019
posted by ericost at 7:24 AM on May 2, 2019
Around the turn of the century one of the oil majors decided to try and improve morale on all the rigs they had contracted by getting the entire workforce together in multi day meetings all over the world. I mean, everyone went to Houston or Aberdeen or Jakarta and got put up in nice hotels. It cost a fortune.
The big takeaway was that we all had to do a thinly disguised MBTI test and then we were issued with colored stickers to put on our hard hats so others would know what "communication style" to use.
Until they lost interest a few months later the rigs were forests of red stickers, 95% easily. I got so sick of being mocked for my sad little blue one.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 8:01 AM on May 2, 2019 [1 favorite]
The big takeaway was that we all had to do a thinly disguised MBTI test and then we were issued with colored stickers to put on our hard hats so others would know what "communication style" to use.
Until they lost interest a few months later the rigs were forests of red stickers, 95% easily. I got so sick of being mocked for my sad little blue one.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 8:01 AM on May 2, 2019 [1 favorite]
« Older The 2019 Sonic The Hedgehog film trailer has... | I will do my absolute best to describe everything... Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Can’t help but love the idea that a senior manager at a “data-driven” news site got fired in part because she refused to take a pseudo-scientific personality test based on Jungian archetypes with no statistical validity.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 7:45 AM on April 30, 2019 [92 favorites]