How Fear Contributes to Cops' Use of Deadly Force
May 1, 2019 11:27 AM Subscribe
The Marshall Project Police employ lethal violence in response to
perceived threats at vastly different rates across the [USA].
Every time I hear anyone talk about "how dangerous" the job of the police is, I give a little silent scream of frustration. Policing doesn't even make the top ten for occupational fatalities. Taxi drivers and chauffeurs are more likely to be killed on the job than the police.
posted by jb at 12:23 PM on May 1, 2019 [37 favorites]
posted by jb at 12:23 PM on May 1, 2019 [37 favorites]
I'm always struck by the fear that pervades most of them, and I always find myself wondering if that's part of why the police seem to kill so often.
I guess it kind of makes sense that the same “be afraid, be very afraid” message constantly being broadcast at citizens would also be directed at officers, too. That way, you’re all but assured of getting the worst case result.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:26 PM on May 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
I guess it kind of makes sense that the same “be afraid, be very afraid” message constantly being broadcast at citizens would also be directed at officers, too. That way, you’re all but assured of getting the worst case result.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:26 PM on May 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
Sorry - to connect my frustration back to the original article: as noted in the article, fear is directly related to the willingness of the police to use excessive and fatal violence to protect themselves. Within policing culture, they really do believe - wrongly - that they are in more danger than any other workers. They also, corrosively, believe that their safety is more important than the safety of others.
We need the police and powers that be to a) recognize that the police are NOT in excessive danger, and b) change their policing tactics to put the safety of civilians first (including suspects who are, after all, not guilty, just suspect), regardless of the danger.
posted by jb at 12:27 PM on May 1, 2019 [26 favorites]
We need the police and powers that be to a) recognize that the police are NOT in excessive danger, and b) change their policing tactics to put the safety of civilians first (including suspects who are, after all, not guilty, just suspect), regardless of the danger.
posted by jb at 12:27 PM on May 1, 2019 [26 favorites]
I'm always struck by the fear that pervades most of them, and I always find myself wondering if that's part of why the police seem to kill so often.
The article doesn't touch on this, but it does say that use of force rates are higher towards the South/Southwest/West than the Northeast. I wonder if this has to do with gun laws and gun culture in general in those states, and that cops in those areas may be more on edge because a random person is much more likely to have a gun on them? I have no idea if that's accurate but I'd like to see some info on it.
posted by Sangermaine at 12:30 PM on May 1, 2019 [8 favorites]
The article doesn't touch on this, but it does say that use of force rates are higher towards the South/Southwest/West than the Northeast. I wonder if this has to do with gun laws and gun culture in general in those states, and that cops in those areas may be more on edge because a random person is much more likely to have a gun on them? I have no idea if that's accurate but I'd like to see some info on it.
posted by Sangermaine at 12:30 PM on May 1, 2019 [8 favorites]
Some might suggest the fear has a racial element.
posted by Artw at 12:34 PM on May 1, 2019 [20 favorites]
posted by Artw at 12:34 PM on May 1, 2019 [20 favorites]
The former Bremerton (WA) Police Chief (and his successor) insisted on providing more hours of required training in de-escalation and similar classes than target training. Our officers haven't fired a shot at a civilian since December 2017. I often read about how they were able to talk someone down from a volatile situation. If you train with guns, that's your go-to.
posted by dbmcd at 12:44 PM on May 1, 2019 [28 favorites]
posted by dbmcd at 12:44 PM on May 1, 2019 [28 favorites]
Fear is not proportional nor rational
Remember, public school teachers deal with the same people the police do, but are out-numbered 30-to-1, have no gun, no body armor and get penalized for calling for back-up.
Fear is a mind-killer, it takes more than a gun to soothe.
posted by Anchorite_of_Palgrave at 12:49 PM on May 1, 2019 [13 favorites]
Remember, public school teachers deal with the same people the police do, but are out-numbered 30-to-1, have no gun, no body armor and get penalized for calling for back-up.
Fear is a mind-killer, it takes more than a gun to soothe.
posted by Anchorite_of_Palgrave at 12:49 PM on May 1, 2019 [13 favorites]
Some might suggest the fear has a racial element.
Yes, that's what the article says. But it also notes that fear has a regional/geographic element, in addition to the racial element.
It may be due to differences in perceived gun ownership levels, or it could be due to differences in training and organizational culture. Even very small organizations - like a rural police force - can get very distinct and self-perpetuating cultures.
posted by jb at 12:51 PM on May 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
Yes, that's what the article says. But it also notes that fear has a regional/geographic element, in addition to the racial element.
It may be due to differences in perceived gun ownership levels, or it could be due to differences in training and organizational culture. Even very small organizations - like a rural police force - can get very distinct and self-perpetuating cultures.
posted by jb at 12:51 PM on May 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
Anchorite_of_Palgrave: Remember, public school teachers deal with the same people the police do, but are out-numbered 30-to-1, have no gun, no body armor and get penalized for calling for back-up.
I recall an article (maybe here on Metafilter?) which has stuck with me in which a social worker who did most of their job in dangerous neighbourhoods made the same point.
posted by clawsoon at 1:00 PM on May 1, 2019 [5 favorites]
I recall an article (maybe here on Metafilter?) which has stuck with me in which a social worker who did most of their job in dangerous neighbourhoods made the same point.
posted by clawsoon at 1:00 PM on May 1, 2019 [5 favorites]
Some might suggest the fear has a racial element.
When you consider the rare times officers are convicted, it makes you wonder.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 1:03 PM on May 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
When you consider the rare times officers are convicted, it makes you wonder.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 1:03 PM on May 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
Where’s the geographic data? The article was an opinion piece, and I couldn’t find the data linked anywhere. Do I have to buy the book or what?
I’m particularly interested in tracking down the data because the officer who killed my neighbor was just convicted of murder.
posted by Maarika at 1:17 PM on May 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
I’m particularly interested in tracking down the data because the officer who killed my neighbor was just convicted of murder.
posted by Maarika at 1:17 PM on May 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
In Minneapolis, Mayor Jacob Frey just banned 'fear based' training. The police union decided they would defy the mayor and offer the training for free.
It's not even that the police are stuck in this cycle of fear, it's that they are willingly perpetuating it.
posted by dinty_moore at 1:25 PM on May 1, 2019 [26 favorites]
It's not even that the police are stuck in this cycle of fear, it's that they are willingly perpetuating it.
posted by dinty_moore at 1:25 PM on May 1, 2019 [26 favorites]
That courts always seem to respect the "I was afraid for my life" defense, and never ask whether that fear was reasonable, which I'm sure contributes to keeping fear-based police cultures alive.
posted by clawsoon at 1:27 PM on May 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 1:27 PM on May 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
It struck me last night while I was watching an episode that game wardens are dealing with individuals that are armed nearly 100% of the time yet somehow don't seem to be murdering them every chance they get.
Back in the 1970s/80s I took a number of hunter education type classes and I distinctly remember being taught that game wardens were the law enforcement officers most likely to be shot in the line of duty for precisely that reason; not to mention that they interact with people in isolated areas where there are likely to be no witnesses. It is worth noting that traffic accidents were more likely to kill law enforcement officers than shootings until recently; I wonder when the police unions will make the link between the NRA’s continual efforts to put more guns on the street and more officers getting shot. I also wonder if what I learned about game wardens is backed up by statistics, either then or now.
posted by TedW at 1:32 PM on May 1, 2019 [5 favorites]
Back in the 1970s/80s I took a number of hunter education type classes and I distinctly remember being taught that game wardens were the law enforcement officers most likely to be shot in the line of duty for precisely that reason; not to mention that they interact with people in isolated areas where there are likely to be no witnesses. It is worth noting that traffic accidents were more likely to kill law enforcement officers than shootings until recently; I wonder when the police unions will make the link between the NRA’s continual efforts to put more guns on the street and more officers getting shot. I also wonder if what I learned about game wardens is backed up by statistics, either then or now.
posted by TedW at 1:32 PM on May 1, 2019 [5 favorites]
I think a lot of it boils down to what police are trained to do. De-escalation training is still just a small part of what officers generally receive. It is usually vastly outweighed by "neutralize the bad guy with whatever force is necessary" training, prioritizing officer safety over literally everything else.
posted by jetsetsc at 1:34 PM on May 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by jetsetsc at 1:34 PM on May 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
In my industry (commercial construction), we often talk about safety in terms of links in a chain. We emphasize how, while the job is dangerous, the risks are knowable, so the key to a safe outcome is following safe work procedures. When an incident happens, we always take a critical look at the sequence of events and try to identify the “broken link”. That’s why we don’t call them accidents—and accident can’t be prevented.
The police I know, talk about how the risks they face are random and unknowable. Their training emphasizes vigilance. “Don’t ever let your guard down because you never know what can happen.”
Objectively, construction is a much more dangerous job than policing although that isn’t the perception. I think the difference is in how you frame the risk.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 1:53 PM on May 1, 2019 [13 favorites]
The police I know, talk about how the risks they face are random and unknowable. Their training emphasizes vigilance. “Don’t ever let your guard down because you never know what can happen.”
Objectively, construction is a much more dangerous job than policing although that isn’t the perception. I think the difference is in how you frame the risk.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 1:53 PM on May 1, 2019 [13 favorites]
@clawson, I'm pretty sure it was my comment from when I did homevisits in Englewood, a south side neighborhood in Chicago.
I now have way more interaction with police, and I cannot get over how abrupt and the lack of compassion with people.
I work adjacent to lots of crime these days and do tons of interaction with victims, and perpetrators. I also do some cooridanating with police and other enforcement agencies (dfcs, APS, department of health) but by far the culture of police is just so abrasive.
Like I get it, that working with people is unpredictable hard and dangerous work, but every human deserves respect and to be approached without a weapon in my opinion.
posted by AlexiaSky at 1:58 PM on May 1, 2019 [20 favorites]
I now have way more interaction with police, and I cannot get over how abrupt and the lack of compassion with people.
I work adjacent to lots of crime these days and do tons of interaction with victims, and perpetrators. I also do some cooridanating with police and other enforcement agencies (dfcs, APS, department of health) but by far the culture of police is just so abrasive.
Like I get it, that working with people is unpredictable hard and dangerous work, but every human deserves respect and to be approached without a weapon in my opinion.
posted by AlexiaSky at 1:58 PM on May 1, 2019 [20 favorites]
It's such bullshit. When a white college student got shot by the pigs in front of a guy who was trying to help him get home and specifically told them NO don't shoot... and the cops retort is : but that's our policy... Tasers? SHOOT FIRST.
And this is "liberal" madison. Great at killing people despite our supposed liberal status. RIP Tony Robinson. RIP Paul Heenan.
Fuck the police.
posted by symbioid at 2:02 PM on May 1, 2019 [6 favorites]
And this is "liberal" madison. Great at killing people despite our supposed liberal status. RIP Tony Robinson. RIP Paul Heenan.
Fuck the police.
posted by symbioid at 2:02 PM on May 1, 2019 [6 favorites]
Whatever the statistics about the proportion of police that are hurt on the job, it is indisputable that they are often walking into potentially dangerous, criminal situations.
Years ago some friends and I were horsing around on the roof and in the backyard of one of our houses at dusk, the same week several burglaries had happened in the neighborhood. A neighbor saw the movement from afar and called the police (we found out later).
When the patrol car arrived, one of the officers walked around the house and saw one of my friend's silhouettes on the roof, holding something in his hand (a hose, waiting to soak those of us at ground level - as I said, we were horsing around). The officer drew his gun and said "freeze or you're fucking dead." Another friend on the roof realized he wasn't visible to the officer and knew that if he moved out of his hidden position he would be an instant target. Luckily he had the presence of mind to say "there are several of us up here, Officer." And the officer maintained his composure and directed the situation so everyone came into view and down off the roof carefully. Eventually it was all sorted out.
After hearing the commotion, my friend's father came out of the house, luckily after the situation was clear. He talked with the officer, who was shaking like the proverbial leaf. As my friends and I (and my friend's dad) all discussed late into the night as our own adrenaline levels diminished, my friends on the roof knew it was a police officer there in the side driveway; the officer had no idea who was on the roof or what threat they might pose. Given the full situation (recent neighborhood incidents, poor visibility, other tension-amplifying specifics, etc.) we all felt lucky that everything ended peacefully, and none of us faulted the officer's handling of the situation.
posted by PhineasGage at 2:12 PM on May 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
Years ago some friends and I were horsing around on the roof and in the backyard of one of our houses at dusk, the same week several burglaries had happened in the neighborhood. A neighbor saw the movement from afar and called the police (we found out later).
When the patrol car arrived, one of the officers walked around the house and saw one of my friend's silhouettes on the roof, holding something in his hand (a hose, waiting to soak those of us at ground level - as I said, we were horsing around). The officer drew his gun and said "freeze or you're fucking dead." Another friend on the roof realized he wasn't visible to the officer and knew that if he moved out of his hidden position he would be an instant target. Luckily he had the presence of mind to say "there are several of us up here, Officer." And the officer maintained his composure and directed the situation so everyone came into view and down off the roof carefully. Eventually it was all sorted out.
After hearing the commotion, my friend's father came out of the house, luckily after the situation was clear. He talked with the officer, who was shaking like the proverbial leaf. As my friends and I (and my friend's dad) all discussed late into the night as our own adrenaline levels diminished, my friends on the roof knew it was a police officer there in the side driveway; the officer had no idea who was on the roof or what threat they might pose. Given the full situation (recent neighborhood incidents, poor visibility, other tension-amplifying specifics, etc.) we all felt lucky that everything ended peacefully, and none of us faulted the officer's handling of the situation.
posted by PhineasGage at 2:12 PM on May 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
Not that I think police should run around shooting people, but this seems like it misses an important point:
Every time I hear anyone talk about "how dangerous" the job of the police is, I give a little silent scream of frustration. Policing doesn't even make the top ten for occupational fatalities. Taxi drivers and chauffeurs are more likely to be killed on the job than the police.
The people in those jobs don't die by homicide. Police are afraid of people because if they do get killed on the job, there's probably even odds its by a person who is trying to hurt or kill them. Thinking "people might be trying to hurt or kill me" is rational. They might be overestimating what "might" means, but it's not a completely off-the-wall idea with no basis in data or reality. It makes as much sense for cops to be afraid of people as it does for fishers to be afraid of the ocean (which I'm pretty sure most are) and roofers to be afraid of falls. The difference of course is that the precautions roofers take to avoid falling don't risk other people's lives. I get it. But it's not crazy for cops to be afraid. That doesn't mean their fear justifies shooting people, and it doesn't mean it's ok that their fear is so often racially-correlated, just that it's not crazy for cops to be afraid of people.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 2:46 PM on May 1, 2019 [4 favorites]
Every time I hear anyone talk about "how dangerous" the job of the police is, I give a little silent scream of frustration. Policing doesn't even make the top ten for occupational fatalities. Taxi drivers and chauffeurs are more likely to be killed on the job than the police.
The people in those jobs don't die by homicide. Police are afraid of people because if they do get killed on the job, there's probably even odds its by a person who is trying to hurt or kill them. Thinking "people might be trying to hurt or kill me" is rational. They might be overestimating what "might" means, but it's not a completely off-the-wall idea with no basis in data or reality. It makes as much sense for cops to be afraid of people as it does for fishers to be afraid of the ocean (which I'm pretty sure most are) and roofers to be afraid of falls. The difference of course is that the precautions roofers take to avoid falling don't risk other people's lives. I get it. But it's not crazy for cops to be afraid. That doesn't mean their fear justifies shooting people, and it doesn't mean it's ok that their fear is so often racially-correlated, just that it's not crazy for cops to be afraid of people.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 2:46 PM on May 1, 2019 [4 favorites]
Adjusting to just homicides: police are still less likely to be murdered on the job than taxi drivers. We don't allow taxi drivers to shoot people when they are afraid.
posted by jb at 2:51 PM on May 1, 2019 [29 favorites]
posted by jb at 2:51 PM on May 1, 2019 [29 favorites]
It makes as much sense for cops to be afraid of people as it does for fishers to be afraid of the ocean (which I'm pretty sure most are) and roofers to be afraid of falls.
Fishermen respect the ocean, and roofers respect heights.
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 2:55 PM on May 1, 2019 [15 favorites]
Fishermen respect the ocean, and roofers respect heights.
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 2:55 PM on May 1, 2019 [15 favorites]
To echo If only I had a penguin...'s point, few firefighters die in the course of their duties, too, but we don't say it's unreasonable for them to have fear every time they turn on the sirens and race to a potentially dangerous situation.
posted by PhineasGage at 2:56 PM on May 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by PhineasGage at 2:56 PM on May 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
Nearly all police/sheriff departments have a program where civilians can request a "ride along" for a shift with a working officer. I've done one and highly recommend that everyone that has questions about their local law enforcement ride along (preferably a night or weekend shift) to actually see what exactly goes on while an officer is on duty.
It's really enlightening to be riding in the car hearing and seeing what the police see (or don't see), as well as to experience what their typical shift is like. Police are often working with limited information in a stressful environment-they are almost always the first on a scene that can be a silly argument between a parent and their teenager or a person threatening suicide with a weapon or an armed robbery. Being present for an entire interaction from start to finish allows you to see how the officer approaches the situation and whether or how they change their tactics in response to the people that they're interacting with.
In no way am I defending police brutality or murder-but being a cop does require that you put yourself in dangerous situations with little or no warning.
posted by hollygoheavy at 4:09 PM on May 1, 2019 [4 favorites]
It's really enlightening to be riding in the car hearing and seeing what the police see (or don't see), as well as to experience what their typical shift is like. Police are often working with limited information in a stressful environment-they are almost always the first on a scene that can be a silly argument between a parent and their teenager or a person threatening suicide with a weapon or an armed robbery. Being present for an entire interaction from start to finish allows you to see how the officer approaches the situation and whether or how they change their tactics in response to the people that they're interacting with.
In no way am I defending police brutality or murder-but being a cop does require that you put yourself in dangerous situations with little or no warning.
posted by hollygoheavy at 4:09 PM on May 1, 2019 [4 favorites]
But it's not crazy for cops to be afraid. That doesn't mean their fear justifies shooting people, and it doesn't mean it's ok that their fear is so often racially-correlated, just that it's not crazy for cops to be afraid of people.
Right, and as a manager in an industrial environment, I can't imagine ever saying to someone to not worry about all the many life-threatening hazards that are around us every day. I have to stress safety and a vigilant attitude. But I hope that I also convey that if you are so afraid you're willing to jeopardize other people's lives, something isn't right. Either someone's lost perspective or I need to shut this whole place down and sort some stuff out. Cops don't really have the option of shutting down the general public until we can make it a safer place for them. AT THE SAME TIME, they are absolutely out of control with the "everyone's trying to kill you so look out for number one" shit.
posted by ctmf at 4:17 PM on May 1, 2019 [16 favorites]
Right, and as a manager in an industrial environment, I can't imagine ever saying to someone to not worry about all the many life-threatening hazards that are around us every day. I have to stress safety and a vigilant attitude. But I hope that I also convey that if you are so afraid you're willing to jeopardize other people's lives, something isn't right. Either someone's lost perspective or I need to shut this whole place down and sort some stuff out. Cops don't really have the option of shutting down the general public until we can make it a safer place for them. AT THE SAME TIME, they are absolutely out of control with the "everyone's trying to kill you so look out for number one" shit.
posted by ctmf at 4:17 PM on May 1, 2019 [16 favorites]
Right, and as a manager in an industrial environment, I can't imagine ever saying to someone to not worry about all the many life-threatening hazards that are around us every day. I have to stress safety and a vigilant attitude. But I hope that I also convey that if you are so afraid you're willing to jeopardize other people's lives, something isn't right. Either someone's lost perspective or I need to shut this whole place down and sort some stuff out. Cops don't really have the option of shutting down the general public until we can make it a safer place for them.
Yeah, the part that gets me is that deescalation tactics have been proven to work, and we have the ability to roll out deescalation training that would make everyone safer - but cop culture is so far into denial of the problem that they're rebelling against the concept of citizen safety. That's the part that's insane.
posted by dinty_moore at 5:03 PM on May 1, 2019 [18 favorites]
Yeah, the part that gets me is that deescalation tactics have been proven to work, and we have the ability to roll out deescalation training that would make everyone safer - but cop culture is so far into denial of the problem that they're rebelling against the concept of citizen safety. That's the part that's insane.
posted by dinty_moore at 5:03 PM on May 1, 2019 [18 favorites]
No, nobody at all in this thread thinks it's at all reasonable to respond to anything right off with deadly threats or force. I haven't seen one comment that says that. What my comment said was that if you have an opportunity to actually spend time with a LEO while they are on the job, you will have more understanding of what their responsibilities are, how they are trained, what doing their job actually looks like without being filtered through social media, news programs or statements from PR officers.
For the record, my son is a cop. He's not garbage. He's a normal man who has a wife, children, a mortgage and a strong set of morals and ethics that *I* taught him. He's not perfect, but he's absolutely not garbage. The whole point of the article is that departments in different areas have different ways of handling deadly force, different training methods, different hiring requirements and different regulations for discipline of their police force. Generalizing an entire category of people is something I thought we tried not to do here.
posted by hollygoheavy at 5:23 PM on May 1, 2019 [4 favorites]
For the record, my son is a cop. He's not garbage. He's a normal man who has a wife, children, a mortgage and a strong set of morals and ethics that *I* taught him. He's not perfect, but he's absolutely not garbage. The whole point of the article is that departments in different areas have different ways of handling deadly force, different training methods, different hiring requirements and different regulations for discipline of their police force. Generalizing an entire category of people is something I thought we tried not to do here.
posted by hollygoheavy at 5:23 PM on May 1, 2019 [4 favorites]
Your son is absolutely not garbage.
He may belong to an organization and institution which has a deeply problematic culture and institutional basis.
Fixating on the police as individuals is not helpful - individuals aren't the problem. It's the culture: their training, the policies, etc.
posted by jb at 5:58 PM on May 1, 2019 [19 favorites]
He may belong to an organization and institution which has a deeply problematic culture and institutional basis.
Fixating on the police as individuals is not helpful - individuals aren't the problem. It's the culture: their training, the policies, etc.
posted by jb at 5:58 PM on May 1, 2019 [19 favorites]
Generalizing an entire category of people is something I thought we tried not to do here.
There is a difference in a group of people who are born a certain way and people who choose employment in a certain field. That’s why the response “blue lives matter” to “black lives matter” is so offensive. You can’t chose to be black, you absolutely make a choice to become a cop.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 6:08 PM on May 1, 2019 [12 favorites]
There is a difference in a group of people who are born a certain way and people who choose employment in a certain field. That’s why the response “blue lives matter” to “black lives matter” is so offensive. You can’t chose to be black, you absolutely make a choice to become a cop.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 6:08 PM on May 1, 2019 [12 favorites]
If I gave the impression that I'm waving a "blue lives matter" flag here, then I apologize. That's not my intention and never has been my pov on police brutality. I will say that I believe that my son's life matters-just as much as any poc that has been murdered by police.
I can honestly say that I'm just as proud of my son choosing to go into law enforcement as I am of my daughter who has chosen to teach in a poverty stricken rural elementary school. Both of them chose to go into public service (even though a lot of people believe that police aren't doing public service, who else will you call if you're assaulted or in a car accident or robbed or threatened? Will you refuse to call 911 if some person starts shooting randomly in a public place that you're in? Police are not perfect and shouldn't be put on any sort of pedestal, but they DO provide a public service.)
posted by hollygoheavy at 6:22 PM on May 1, 2019 [4 favorites]
I can honestly say that I'm just as proud of my son choosing to go into law enforcement as I am of my daughter who has chosen to teach in a poverty stricken rural elementary school. Both of them chose to go into public service (even though a lot of people believe that police aren't doing public service, who else will you call if you're assaulted or in a car accident or robbed or threatened? Will you refuse to call 911 if some person starts shooting randomly in a public place that you're in? Police are not perfect and shouldn't be put on any sort of pedestal, but they DO provide a public service.)
posted by hollygoheavy at 6:22 PM on May 1, 2019 [4 favorites]
even though a lot of people believe that police aren't doing public service, who else will you call if you're assaulted or in a car accident or robbed or threatened?
I think what you're missing is that calling the cops in this case, depending on who you are and where you are, can cause more problems than it solves. And I say this as someone who has been mugged with a gun in my face. I never really thought the cops were going to actually find the person who mugged me, and as a white woman, I had a lot less to fear regarding them mistaking me for the perpetrator. It was just a net neutral experience for me, and reporting it was just helping with accurate crime statistics (and in this case, a bystander called the cops - my phone had been stolen).
Will you refuse to call 911 if some person starts shooting randomly in a public place that you're in?
Generally, yes? This isn't the hypothetical I think you think it is, but if I think I hear gunshots, I definitely don't call the cops unless I am in an situation where I think it's okay to risk the cops shooting someone - and while I've definitely heard gunshots, I've never crossed the line to thinking it was a good idea to call the cops. Because I know that if it's 'shots fired' the cops are more likely to shoot.
It's not that I trust vigilante justice is better - it certainly isn't, and the good guy with a gun is a myth (one that's likely to be shot by the cops, even), it's just that the most likely result of me calling the cops is not one that's going to end up looking like justice.
posted by dinty_moore at 6:48 PM on May 1, 2019 [8 favorites]
I think what you're missing is that calling the cops in this case, depending on who you are and where you are, can cause more problems than it solves. And I say this as someone who has been mugged with a gun in my face. I never really thought the cops were going to actually find the person who mugged me, and as a white woman, I had a lot less to fear regarding them mistaking me for the perpetrator. It was just a net neutral experience for me, and reporting it was just helping with accurate crime statistics (and in this case, a bystander called the cops - my phone had been stolen).
Will you refuse to call 911 if some person starts shooting randomly in a public place that you're in?
Generally, yes? This isn't the hypothetical I think you think it is, but if I think I hear gunshots, I definitely don't call the cops unless I am in an situation where I think it's okay to risk the cops shooting someone - and while I've definitely heard gunshots, I've never crossed the line to thinking it was a good idea to call the cops. Because I know that if it's 'shots fired' the cops are more likely to shoot.
It's not that I trust vigilante justice is better - it certainly isn't, and the good guy with a gun is a myth (one that's likely to be shot by the cops, even), it's just that the most likely result of me calling the cops is not one that's going to end up looking like justice.
posted by dinty_moore at 6:48 PM on May 1, 2019 [8 favorites]
I think maybe people are missing how common police shootings are? It's not just an annual thing, it's not just the ones that make it on the news. In Chicago between 2010 and 2015, police shot a civilian an average of once every five days. And Chicago doesn't even crack the top 25 if we're talking about large cities per capita, according to this source.
posted by dinty_moore at 6:59 PM on May 1, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by dinty_moore at 6:59 PM on May 1, 2019 [9 favorites]
I am not a big fan of the link. It does some things that I view as frequently-repeated canards that fold under a minimum of critical thinking. It opens with some old school begging the question. It grants the conclusion of racial bias in the listed shootings in its premise and then just sort of immediately abandons the grenade it's dropped on the floor. There's a lot going on with those incidents (as with any critical incident) and simply reciting the names as examples of racial bias and then calling it a day in a single sentence isn't a great approach.
Numbers for Germany are more difficult to come by as an English speaker. The best I could do in a reasonable amount of googling is this article from 2017 with a paragraph at the end saying "police officers rarely die in the line of duty in Germany." It lists a total of 7 murdered German officers since 2011, counting the two that are the subject of the article. I don't know if that list is complete and the article is clearly two years old but I have hard time believing that in two years they caught up to our 5 month figure.
The single most significant predictor of police use of lethal force is the use or threatened use of lethal force by the suspect. Most people killed by police in the US lost a gunfight. In cities where - for whatever reason - the rate of armed violent crime is lower, the rates of officer involved shootings are lower as well.
Anyway. This is an extremely weak essay. It is only persuasive to those that read it already convinced. The authors have failed to ask even the most basic questions and any project founded upon intellectual sand like this is doomed to failure.
I said I'd bring up some more numbers in response to some comments, so I'll do that below.
Again according to wikipedia, we had about 1.2 million firefighters in the US in 2018. In 2017 there were 60 firefighter line of duty deaths or about 1 death for every 20k firefighters.
Does that mean that fighting fires isn't dangerous? Of course not. It's obviously dangerous. Firefighters go about their job using training, equipment, and teamwork to do their dangerous job as safely as possible. I've also watched firefighters work a decent sized structure fire. They brought at least two and I think three crews to the fire. They staged multiple ambulances. Crews worked in 15 minute stints to avoid things like collapsing from exhaustion. If something were to go wrong the injured firefighter would be transported to one of the two level 1 trauma centers nearby within minutes.
Trauma care in the US has advanced to the degree of working miracles on a day to day basis. Injuries that absolutely would have been fatal 20 years ago are now routinely survived. That doesn't mean that it isn't dangerous to receive those injuries.
The FIB's UCR is not a perfect tool. Only about 66% of agencies in the US report to UCR. So keep in mind that when you're looking at the following numbers, the real numbers are higher. There's no way to know how much higher. That said, according to 2017 UCR numbers:
Police in the US were assaulted with a firearm (typically shot at) 2,677 times and injured in 10.2% of those assaults. There were 1,083 knife/cutting instrument assaults with an injury rate of 14.1%. 10,209 assaults with other dangerous weapons (bricks, bats, etc) with a 22% injury rate. There were 46,242 assaults with "personal weapons" (i.e.: hands and feet) with a 32% injury rate.
The aggravated assault rate in the US broadly in 2017 was 248.9 per 100k residents or 1 per 400. If we only count the armed assaults from above and round up the result we get 1 aggravated assault per 55 officers in the US. Keep in mind that some of those "unarmed" assaults absolutely resulted in serious injuries that would qualify for aggravated assault and - again - remember that about 44% of agencies don't even report to UCR. Police in my mid-sized city get shot at a few times every year. Thankfully we only have one struck by gunfire every few years, which is pretty consistent with the volume of gunfire in general that doesn't end up hitting anyone.
This officer wasn't killed so that situation wasn't dangerous, right? No corpse, no danger?
In my city we arrest a few hundred people every year for illegal possession of firearms. Those arrests are majority African American, just as our shooting and murder victims and suspects are majority African American. Not to mention arrests for aggravated robbery and assault, murder, etc. Single-digit percentages of our arrests result in ANY force being used whatsoever (I believe it's less than 1% but I can't confirm). We tend to have a single officer involved shooting in a given year although obviously there's variation. Probably about half the cops I work with have fought hand to hand with suspects armed with guns they didn't know about prior to contact, every last one of us has had contact with and arrested armed criminals, etc. I've had rounds skipping off the sidewalk next to me, some friends have BWC video where you can hear the distinctive "zip" noise of rounds overhead, that kind of thing. Somehow none of that gets into the news. And yes, the local activists refer to us as racist and trigger happy.
Fear based training.
Anyway. There is - as always - a lot of blanket pronouncements about police training etc being made with exactly 0 first-hand knowledge. I very highly doubt that anyone here has so much as looked at the POST board requirements in their state. I would be fascinated to see how comfortable anyone would be making broad proclamations about "plumber culture" if they had never shared so much as two civil words with a real life plumber.
Policing is a human institution carried out by humans. It is imperfect. Police in the US address armed criminal violence far more often than police in any other developed nation. We encounter firearms more frequently than any other developed nation. When your sole, specific, and only source of information about police is from anti-police sources that doesn't do a great job of developing a balanced view. Never in the history of the world has anyone improved a system by focusing exclusively on failures, real or perceived. If you actually give a shit about making anything better it would behoove you to acknowledge and look to improve upon strengths.
I don't know. It's just bananas to me that the narrative around police has reached a point where someone would almost rather just let a suspect rob people at gunpoint at will than involve the police.
To loop back to the original link: I personally don't experience a "culture of fear." In fact one of the most valued traits in the profession in my experience is ability to maintain calm in high pressure situations. The ability to think, communicate, and problem solve in the middle of an enormous melee, gunfire, serious trauma, and so on: this is invaluable in my line of work. Someone that can be in the middle of a fight or the middle of gunfire and clearly and calmly provide good information over the air is someone that gains a lot of respect. People that lock up or lose the ability to think and communicate under stress are people that get extra training and are often the people that wash out of field training.
None of that means I'm claiming perfection or infallibility. But this essay was bad and it did nothing to actual advance our society towards any kind of improved state.
posted by firebrick at 8:03 PM on May 1, 2019 [8 favorites]
Police officers in the United States kill more than 1,000 civilians a year, while German and British police together kill about 10.This is outright bad faith. I'll provide some further numbers a little ways down to give more context here, but this is a really egregious false equivalency. As of the writing of this comment, 17 officers have been murdered in the US in 2019 (ODMP). You have to go back to 1997 to find 17 British officers murdered in the line of duty, as long as I've interpreted the short snippets on the Wikipedia listing correctly. So considering we have as many cops murdered in 5 months as the brits do in 22 years, yes, the environments are different.
Numbers for Germany are more difficult to come by as an English speaker. The best I could do in a reasonable amount of googling is this article from 2017 with a paragraph at the end saying "police officers rarely die in the line of duty in Germany." It lists a total of 7 murdered German officers since 2011, counting the two that are the subject of the article. I don't know if that list is complete and the article is clearly two years old but I have hard time believing that in two years they caught up to our 5 month figure.
Yet regional differences in the overall incidence of lethal force are so great that whites in Houston have a higher likelihood of being killed by police than black residents of New York City do.Sigh. Interestingly the link to the Federal Charges provided by dinty_moore is a much more reasonable look at the data.
The single most significant predictor of police use of lethal force is the use or threatened use of lethal force by the suspect. Most people killed by police in the US lost a gunfight. In cities where - for whatever reason - the rate of armed violent crime is lower, the rates of officer involved shootings are lower as well.
Some powerful historical evidence supports this view.This is a really deeply vacuous argument that is symptomatic of the failures of critical thinking by some members of the reform activist groups. Policing in the US is extremely different from how it was in the 60s. 1967 was 52 years ago. That is not "powerful historical evidence," it's willfully ignoring history! And given the authors' track record for bad faith argument as well as the extremely thin, evidence free argument that the different results in different locations were due principally to training, I'm pretty suspicious of the paragraph. I wonder how much, if any, thought was given to the possibility that the two locations in question had different levels and types of unrest? Or any of the other possible factors?
Anyway. This is an extremely weak essay. It is only persuasive to those that read it already convinced. The authors have failed to ask even the most basic questions and any project founded upon intellectual sand like this is doomed to failure.
I said I'd bring up some more numbers in response to some comments, so I'll do that below.
Every time I hear anyone talk about "how dangerous" the job of the police is, I give a little silent scream of frustration. Policing doesn't even make the top ten for occupational fatalities. Taxi drivers and chauffeurs are more likely to be killed on the job than the police.This is one of the oft-repeated canards that I don't like. Counting corpses is not without utility but it is not a measure of "danger." It just isn't. For a baseline, some basic googling found a listing for an estimated 2017 total of about 765,000 sworn in the US here. From that pool we had 134 line of duty deaths, not counting deaths from 9/11 related illness. So roughly 1 death for every 5,700 cops.
Again according to wikipedia, we had about 1.2 million firefighters in the US in 2018. In 2017 there were 60 firefighter line of duty deaths or about 1 death for every 20k firefighters.
Does that mean that fighting fires isn't dangerous? Of course not. It's obviously dangerous. Firefighters go about their job using training, equipment, and teamwork to do their dangerous job as safely as possible. I've also watched firefighters work a decent sized structure fire. They brought at least two and I think three crews to the fire. They staged multiple ambulances. Crews worked in 15 minute stints to avoid things like collapsing from exhaustion. If something were to go wrong the injured firefighter would be transported to one of the two level 1 trauma centers nearby within minutes.
Trauma care in the US has advanced to the degree of working miracles on a day to day basis. Injuries that absolutely would have been fatal 20 years ago are now routinely survived. That doesn't mean that it isn't dangerous to receive those injuries.
The FIB's UCR is not a perfect tool. Only about 66% of agencies in the US report to UCR. So keep in mind that when you're looking at the following numbers, the real numbers are higher. There's no way to know how much higher. That said, according to 2017 UCR numbers:
Police in the US were assaulted with a firearm (typically shot at) 2,677 times and injured in 10.2% of those assaults. There were 1,083 knife/cutting instrument assaults with an injury rate of 14.1%. 10,209 assaults with other dangerous weapons (bricks, bats, etc) with a 22% injury rate. There were 46,242 assaults with "personal weapons" (i.e.: hands and feet) with a 32% injury rate.
The aggravated assault rate in the US broadly in 2017 was 248.9 per 100k residents or 1 per 400. If we only count the armed assaults from above and round up the result we get 1 aggravated assault per 55 officers in the US. Keep in mind that some of those "unarmed" assaults absolutely resulted in serious injuries that would qualify for aggravated assault and - again - remember that about 44% of agencies don't even report to UCR. Police in my mid-sized city get shot at a few times every year. Thankfully we only have one struck by gunfire every few years, which is pretty consistent with the volume of gunfire in general that doesn't end up hitting anyone.
This officer wasn't killed so that situation wasn't dangerous, right? No corpse, no danger?
Some might suggest the fear has a racial element.As I've pointed out before, African Americans average around 25% of those killed by police and 40% of those that kill police. The numbers are similar for assaults with firearms in general. UCR link. Dr. Roland Fryer's study also complicates that view at an absolute minimum.
In my city we arrest a few hundred people every year for illegal possession of firearms. Those arrests are majority African American, just as our shooting and murder victims and suspects are majority African American. Not to mention arrests for aggravated robbery and assault, murder, etc. Single-digit percentages of our arrests result in ANY force being used whatsoever (I believe it's less than 1% but I can't confirm). We tend to have a single officer involved shooting in a given year although obviously there's variation. Probably about half the cops I work with have fought hand to hand with suspects armed with guns they didn't know about prior to contact, every last one of us has had contact with and arrested armed criminals, etc. I've had rounds skipping off the sidewalk next to me, some friends have BWC video where you can hear the distinctive "zip" noise of rounds overhead, that kind of thing. Somehow none of that gets into the news. And yes, the local activists refer to us as racist and trigger happy.
Fear based training.
Anyway. There is - as always - a lot of blanket pronouncements about police training etc being made with exactly 0 first-hand knowledge. I very highly doubt that anyone here has so much as looked at the POST board requirements in their state. I would be fascinated to see how comfortable anyone would be making broad proclamations about "plumber culture" if they had never shared so much as two civil words with a real life plumber.
Policing is a human institution carried out by humans. It is imperfect. Police in the US address armed criminal violence far more often than police in any other developed nation. We encounter firearms more frequently than any other developed nation. When your sole, specific, and only source of information about police is from anti-police sources that doesn't do a great job of developing a balanced view. Never in the history of the world has anyone improved a system by focusing exclusively on failures, real or perceived. If you actually give a shit about making anything better it would behoove you to acknowledge and look to improve upon strengths.
I think maybe people are missing how common police shootings are? It's not just an annual thing, it's not just the ones that make it on the news. In Chicago between 2010 and 2015, police shot a civilian an average of once every five days. And Chicago doesn't even crack the top 25 if we're talking about large cities per capita, according to this source.Have you thought to ask what the circumstances were, as Dr. Fryer did? If someone initiates a gunfight with a Chicago cop every 5 days, what else do you expect? I'm not saying that's the case, but it should at least be a question that occurs to you. You should also think about the many times a day every single day that police in the US are able to make arrests of suspects armed with guns without a critical incident. What's the difference between those arrests of armed suspects and the critical incidents? Is it the cops or might it possibly have something to do with choices made by the suspect?
it's just that the most likely result of me calling the cops is not one that's going to end up looking like justice.Hyperbole of this aside, neither does just ignoring it and letting the neighborhood descend further into chaos. I'm sure the next person robbed at gunpoint by your suspect was as blase about it as you are. By the way, my city at least has an excellent robbery solve rate, around 75%. In the past month I've personally arrested two suspects for knifepoint robbery (no force used, knife recovered on Terry frisk) and another suspect for strongarm robbery (no force used, he also had a warrant for felony domestic assault).
I don't know. It's just bananas to me that the narrative around police has reached a point where someone would almost rather just let a suspect rob people at gunpoint at will than involve the police.
To loop back to the original link: I personally don't experience a "culture of fear." In fact one of the most valued traits in the profession in my experience is ability to maintain calm in high pressure situations. The ability to think, communicate, and problem solve in the middle of an enormous melee, gunfire, serious trauma, and so on: this is invaluable in my line of work. Someone that can be in the middle of a fight or the middle of gunfire and clearly and calmly provide good information over the air is someone that gains a lot of respect. People that lock up or lose the ability to think and communicate under stress are people that get extra training and are often the people that wash out of field training.
None of that means I'm claiming perfection or infallibility. But this essay was bad and it did nothing to actual advance our society towards any kind of improved state.
posted by firebrick at 8:03 PM on May 1, 2019 [8 favorites]
Hyperbole of this aside, neither does just ignoring it and letting the neighborhood descend further into chaos. I'm sure the next person robbed at gunpoint by your suspect was as blase about it as you are. By the way, my city at least has an excellent robbery solve rate, around 75%. In the past month I've personally arrested two suspects for knifepoint robbery (no force used, knife recovered on Terry frisk) and another suspect for strongarm robbery (no force used, he also had a warrant for felony domestic assault).
It's not a hyperbole, if I call in a shooting and the cops come fifteen minutes later (which is frankly, pretty damn speedy), nobody attached to the shooting is going to be there, and I don't want some freaked out cops accidentally shooting anyone else (because, as stated in an earlier link - the cops where I live have been trained in a culture of 'heightened awareness' that has led to a number of unfortunate police involved shootings). With the way that the cops around where I live are trained, "shots fired" is a frankly irresponsible thing to say unless there is no other choice.
Good on you for your robbery solve rate, but this was a mugging where nobody was hurt and they got an empty wallet and my phone. They got a sketchy description from me of a kid and someone standing behind me the entire time from me and someone that was three floors up at night, and they fled before the police could arrive. I'd hope I wasn't their first priority, and yeah, the case was never solved. Thanks for blaming me for. . . getting mugged? I guess? Not being more freaked out (and don't get me wrong, I was freaked out, it's just that I didn't think the cops were going to go out of their way to find my crappy phone and a beat up leather wallet just because there was a gun involved), giving the cops as accurate a description as I could manage, and writing the people who called it in a thank you note? Not really sure what better choice I could have made, in your opinion.
I'm glad they didn't show up earlier and shoot the kid, even if there was a gun involved and it was pointed at me. Even imagining that is awful.
I don't think I have it in me to respond to the rest of your comment, to be honest. I know what happens to murder victims if they're from areas that have 'descended into chaos' and how it gets treated by cops, by everyone. I know a few members of the CPD (well, former members) that joined up because of Jon Burge and decided that the best way to stop a racist cop was to take their jobs - and believe me, I don't feel like I can judge their choices, because they had to put up with a lot of bullshit to do so. I'm well aware of how dangerous Chicago can be.
posted by dinty_moore at 9:16 PM on May 1, 2019 [9 favorites]
It's not a hyperbole, if I call in a shooting and the cops come fifteen minutes later (which is frankly, pretty damn speedy), nobody attached to the shooting is going to be there, and I don't want some freaked out cops accidentally shooting anyone else (because, as stated in an earlier link - the cops where I live have been trained in a culture of 'heightened awareness' that has led to a number of unfortunate police involved shootings). With the way that the cops around where I live are trained, "shots fired" is a frankly irresponsible thing to say unless there is no other choice.
Good on you for your robbery solve rate, but this was a mugging where nobody was hurt and they got an empty wallet and my phone. They got a sketchy description from me of a kid and someone standing behind me the entire time from me and someone that was three floors up at night, and they fled before the police could arrive. I'd hope I wasn't their first priority, and yeah, the case was never solved. Thanks for blaming me for. . . getting mugged? I guess? Not being more freaked out (and don't get me wrong, I was freaked out, it's just that I didn't think the cops were going to go out of their way to find my crappy phone and a beat up leather wallet just because there was a gun involved), giving the cops as accurate a description as I could manage, and writing the people who called it in a thank you note? Not really sure what better choice I could have made, in your opinion.
I'm glad they didn't show up earlier and shoot the kid, even if there was a gun involved and it was pointed at me. Even imagining that is awful.
I don't think I have it in me to respond to the rest of your comment, to be honest. I know what happens to murder victims if they're from areas that have 'descended into chaos' and how it gets treated by cops, by everyone. I know a few members of the CPD (well, former members) that joined up because of Jon Burge and decided that the best way to stop a racist cop was to take their jobs - and believe me, I don't feel like I can judge their choices, because they had to put up with a lot of bullshit to do so. I'm well aware of how dangerous Chicago can be.
posted by dinty_moore at 9:16 PM on May 1, 2019 [9 favorites]
Mod note: Comment removed. firebrick, you've established a habit of coming in with a lot of pushback in threads critical of police, and one long-form comment is really about all that's gonna work, if that; doing it repeatedly and/or arguing people down at length for having a different perspective is gonna be a no go pretty much always going forward, please do not do it again in the future.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:18 PM on May 1, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:18 PM on May 1, 2019 [7 favorites]
The Peabody award winning podcast Buried Truths, produced by my awesome local public radio station WABE, investigates civil rights cold cases in Georgia. The second season deals with a police killing of a black boy in Macon in 1962. It is a heartbreaking story in its own right, but the connections they make to the history of policing (especially in the former confederacy) and to modern police shootings are especially wrenching. I highly recommend it for folks interested in the history of police shootings in this country. Really, I highly recommend both seasons (the first season deals with the murder of a black man for voting in 1948)
posted by hydropsyche at 5:38 AM on May 2, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 5:38 AM on May 2, 2019 [4 favorites]
I never seem to see eye-to-eye with firebrick on pretty much anything else, but I do agree that this article is kinda week sauce. There are some interesting questions to be asked here, but the barely-substantiated musings of a couple econ professors is . . . probably not where I'd start.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:51 AM on May 2, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by aspersioncast at 9:51 AM on May 2, 2019 [2 favorites]
["weak" sauce]
posted by aspersioncast at 11:20 AM on May 2, 2019
posted by aspersioncast at 11:20 AM on May 2, 2019
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posted by clawsoon at 12:11 PM on May 1, 2019 [8 favorites]