(don't) wash your chicken
May 2, 2019 8:14 PM Subscribe
USA's Center for Disease Control (CDC) has issued their say on washing chicken: Don't the comments went as well as you expect, for something so literally culturally divisive.
same reason you don't wash iron cookware: you're just cooking dead stuff anyway. Or in doing so, cooking other stuff till it's dead.
And then you eat the dead. MMMMMMM
posted by not_on_display at 8:20 PM on May 2, 2019 [8 favorites]
And then you eat the dead. MMMMMMM
posted by not_on_display at 8:20 PM on May 2, 2019 [8 favorites]
Oh wow this is a cultural divide I didn't even know existed. Cleansing fire works just fine thank you very much.
I do like the top comment, "I wash my chicken, with lime, lemon, or vinegar." Which leads to multiple replies of, "That's a marinade!"
posted by thecjm at 8:50 PM on May 2, 2019 [26 favorites]
I do like the top comment, "I wash my chicken, with lime, lemon, or vinegar." Which leads to multiple replies of, "That's a marinade!"
posted by thecjm at 8:50 PM on May 2, 2019 [26 favorites]
the second paragraph of this...fine article seems to be trying to joke in a way I find really unsettlingly supportive of parents "ass whooping" and failing to provide adequate food to their kids. I regret clicking through to that. yikes.
counter-proposal: no one should do any of the things this author describes as normal parts of "Western Civilization" in this article, because they all sound fucking awful.
posted by bagel at 8:52 PM on May 2, 2019 [3 favorites]
counter-proposal: no one should do any of the things this author describes as normal parts of "Western Civilization" in this article, because they all sound fucking awful.
posted by bagel at 8:52 PM on May 2, 2019 [3 favorites]
Wash your chicken if you like wasting time I guess. It does nothing to improve the cleanliness of the chicken. And very slightly increases the chance of spreading disease. But I'm sure you know better than the CDC.
posted by backlikeclap at 8:53 PM on May 2, 2019 [59 favorites]
posted by backlikeclap at 8:53 PM on May 2, 2019 [59 favorites]
I saw Placebo Lemon Chicken Wash at 930 Club and they were awesome
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:57 PM on May 2, 2019 [34 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:57 PM on May 2, 2019 [34 favorites]
The article wasn’t to my taste but people’s attitudes toward food safety and the irrational inconsistencies we all have are interesting.
i wash all meats with a mixture of flour and water.
Can you please explain that a bit more? Do you rub with flour and then wash, or do you make a slurry first? I’ve used flour as a batter but never for cleaning and am curious about the mechanics of it.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:58 PM on May 2, 2019 [1 favorite]
i wash all meats with a mixture of flour and water.
Can you please explain that a bit more? Do you rub with flour and then wash, or do you make a slurry first? I’ve used flour as a batter but never for cleaning and am curious about the mechanics of it.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:58 PM on May 2, 2019 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I usually tip the chicken into a basin of water and scrub it under the water. I find that the surface fluids often develop off flavors well before the meat becomes unsafe to eat, and this reduces the off flavor significantly. It sounds like this does not contravene the CDC's recommendation, since I'm not letting running water splash off the chicken onto other surfaces?
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 9:01 PM on May 2, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 9:01 PM on May 2, 2019 [5 favorites]
A lot of this must come from the different levels of processing that different cuts of chicken go through. Like, a boneless skinless chicken breast is what it is and you can see it in its sterile styrofoam package and that it's pretty gunk-free. But say you're cutting up a whole bird into parts - you'll want to spend some time checking over the pieces, cleaning any blood or gunky bits off, and if there were innards then you'd need to deal with that too. And there's often a few quills stuck in skin-on bone-in cuts even from my very swanky grocery store that I'll want to catch before I cook. So I feel like a lot of people who learned to wash their chicken treat it as the step where you'd check over your cuts to make sure they're otherwise prepped for cooking, combined with time in the sink because it's an easily cleaned surface in your kitchen. Maybe I'm wrong - I don't wash my chicken before cooking it. But it seems to come from a pretty rational place for a lot of folks and I don't know how I feel about the way people on either side of this "issue" are treating each other.
posted by Mizu at 9:02 PM on May 2, 2019 [26 favorites]
posted by Mizu at 9:02 PM on May 2, 2019 [26 favorites]
I, too, had no idea there was some kind of cultural divide here. This always seemed common sense to me: You should wash (rinse) your chicken if your recipe involves coating it in flour, egg, or breading; it has nothing to do with food poisoning or cleanliness, it just gives your coating a better surface to stick to. Same principle as washing any surface before you'd apply a coat of paint to it. If you're not going to bread the chicken, you don't really need to bother.
posted by mstokes650 at 9:06 PM on May 2, 2019 [11 favorites]
posted by mstokes650 at 9:06 PM on May 2, 2019 [11 favorites]
That's a great point, Mizu.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 9:11 PM on May 2, 2019
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 9:11 PM on May 2, 2019
This must be a regional thing... PNW, California, SW... never heard of this.
posted by vincentmeanie at 9:15 PM on May 2, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by vincentmeanie at 9:15 PM on May 2, 2019 [1 favorite]
Can you please explain that a bit more? Do you rub with flour and then wash, or do you make a slurry first?
yup, as a slurry. and for sure, i think a lot of that cultural divide comes from practices that were established with how chicken were treated/packaged differently. a lot of the poc (especially carribbean, african-american, and asian like me) probably had that custom because the chicken is usually from a wet market/slaughtered and packed by small-time traders or home cooks, not at all the way the a typical supermarket chicken ends up. so my slurry mix is to scour (basically) the less fresh, more exposed parts of the chicken from the butcher, and if it's cut up parts of chicken, there are definitely stray blood and feathers.
eta: and in the slurry water, it visibly changes colour to that reddish/brownish hue
posted by cendawanita at 9:16 PM on May 2, 2019 [4 favorites]
yup, as a slurry. and for sure, i think a lot of that cultural divide comes from practices that were established with how chicken were treated/packaged differently. a lot of the poc (especially carribbean, african-american, and asian like me) probably had that custom because the chicken is usually from a wet market/slaughtered and packed by small-time traders or home cooks, not at all the way the a typical supermarket chicken ends up. so my slurry mix is to scour (basically) the less fresh, more exposed parts of the chicken from the butcher, and if it's cut up parts of chicken, there are definitely stray blood and feathers.
eta: and in the slurry water, it visibly changes colour to that reddish/brownish hue
posted by cendawanita at 9:16 PM on May 2, 2019 [4 favorites]
I've never heard of washing raw chicken. I understand the comments about washing chicken before breading it to give the breading a better surface to stick to, or washing off gristle, etc., in less pristinely presented chicken, but I'm gathering people also wash skinless chicken breasts and the like? That seems...so strange. Like tearing a piece of paper in half before putting it in a shredder, or using a wet wipe to clean your hands before taking a shower.
posted by Bugbread at 9:28 PM on May 2, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by Bugbread at 9:28 PM on May 2, 2019 [3 favorites]
The real question is how frequently one should wash the chicken-washing towel.
posted by notquitemaryann at 9:35 PM on May 2, 2019 [25 favorites]
posted by notquitemaryann at 9:35 PM on May 2, 2019 [25 favorites]
Or whether you should wash the chicken-washing towel sitting or standing.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 9:38 PM on May 2, 2019 [27 favorites]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 9:38 PM on May 2, 2019 [27 favorites]
I pat the surface with paper towels and throw them away.
I also buy "air chilled" chicken because it doesn't have that fecal smell that raw chicken that's been soaked has.
posted by BrotherCaine at 9:51 PM on May 2, 2019
I also buy "air chilled" chicken because it doesn't have that fecal smell that raw chicken that's been soaked has.
posted by BrotherCaine at 9:51 PM on May 2, 2019
I always have trouble getting the chickens to stand, myself.
posted by notquitemaryann at 9:51 PM on May 2, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by notquitemaryann at 9:51 PM on May 2, 2019 [4 favorites]
Make sure you thoroughly cook then cut the chicken before eating it.
posted by waving at 9:58 PM on May 2, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by waving at 9:58 PM on May 2, 2019 [2 favorites]
You wash and pat dry chicken not to get rid of "germs" but to remove the stray bits and chicken slime. Chicken slime funks up your hands, cutting board, and utensils, prevents the spices from absorbing and the skin from browning properly.
I agree with the above that this is a prepackaged vs cutting up your own chicken divide. I agree that there is no point to washing boneless skinless chicken cutlets before grilling them without spices.
posted by iamnotangry at 10:13 PM on May 2, 2019 [7 favorites]
I agree with the above that this is a prepackaged vs cutting up your own chicken divide. I agree that there is no point to washing boneless skinless chicken cutlets before grilling them without spices.
posted by iamnotangry at 10:13 PM on May 2, 2019 [7 favorites]
I wash my chicken (it seems kind of slimy and I’m unsettled when the plastic wrapping the package is touching it). I must have read to do that somewhere; I was a vegetarian from about 13 on so I was completely un-involved in chicken cooking as a kid and I’ve done it since I started eating meat. Sorry, CDC, I will continue doing so (gently in the sink? Trying not to splash chicken germs all over?)
Cendawanita, so you submerge it in water and flour, or make a slurry and rub it on? I’m also so curious about that process, thanks for talking about it.
posted by jeweled accumulation at 10:14 PM on May 2, 2019
Cendawanita, so you submerge it in water and flour, or make a slurry and rub it on? I’m also so curious about that process, thanks for talking about it.
posted by jeweled accumulation at 10:14 PM on May 2, 2019
You don’t need to wash chicken, but you do need to pat it dry. Paper towels work.
posted by borges at 10:25 PM on May 2, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by borges at 10:25 PM on May 2, 2019 [3 favorites]
Like, does the CDC even cook real food?
posted by polymodus at 10:28 PM on May 2, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by polymodus at 10:28 PM on May 2, 2019 [2 favorites]
well, i'm not too fussed with it, but it's always done in a bowl or container of some kind. so, place the chicken, sprinkle a liberal amount of flour, run water from the tap (which will collect into the bowl), and just gentle rub the slurry around the chicken, plucking out stray bits of fat etc I don't want as well. then a couple of rinses to rinse off the flour slurry. it doesn't take too long.
i used to live with a pair of shanghai boys. they mostly cook pork when they do cook, but for them, the cleaning process is basically boiling their meats for a bit before cooking proper.
posted by cendawanita at 10:29 PM on May 2, 2019 [2 favorites]
i used to live with a pair of shanghai boys. they mostly cook pork when they do cook, but for them, the cleaning process is basically boiling their meats for a bit before cooking proper.
posted by cendawanita at 10:29 PM on May 2, 2019 [2 favorites]
Don't call it washing, call it wet brining. I wet brine with a strainer placed in a larger steel bowl with water and either salt or vinegar added. All the funk, goo and weird get removed after a soak, a stir and a rinse. If you are making soup with beef bone then water with lime juice gets the gunk out if you soak the bones. It reduces a lot of scum skimming when making broth.
posted by jadepearl at 10:46 PM on May 2, 2019
posted by jadepearl at 10:46 PM on May 2, 2019
Maybe chlorine washing by the supplier is a factor?
(We in the UK are looking forward to getting our hands on that chlorinated chicken as soon as we Brexit)
posted by Kiwi at 11:19 PM on May 2, 2019 [3 favorites]
(We in the UK are looking forward to getting our hands on that chlorinated chicken as soon as we Brexit)
posted by Kiwi at 11:19 PM on May 2, 2019 [3 favorites]
i wash my chicken with salt and olive oil and ras al hanout and cayenne, wash it some more by butterflying it onto a rack, and then give it a third thorough washing at 400f for about 60 to 75 mins.
it's super clean after that.
posted by wibari at 11:20 PM on May 2, 2019 [36 favorites]
it's super clean after that.
posted by wibari at 11:20 PM on May 2, 2019 [36 favorites]
What kind of fucked up chickens are you people buying?
posted by howfar at 12:06 AM on May 3, 2019 [27 favorites]
posted by howfar at 12:06 AM on May 3, 2019 [27 favorites]
The real question is how frequently one should wash the chicken-washing towel.
What? Never. If you wash the chicken-towel it never gets properly seasoned.
(A properly seasoned chicken-towel is the song of my people.)
posted by The Tensor at 12:17 AM on May 3, 2019 [24 favorites]
What? Never. If you wash the chicken-towel it never gets properly seasoned.
(A properly seasoned chicken-towel is the song of my people.)
posted by The Tensor at 12:17 AM on May 3, 2019 [24 favorites]
This is wild.
posted by mumimor at 1:05 AM on May 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 1:05 AM on May 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
The real question is how frequently one should wash the chicken-washing towel.
Who will wash the washers?
posted by TedW at 1:31 AM on May 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
Who will wash the washers?
posted by TedW at 1:31 AM on May 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
The only time I've ever heard of washing chicken is in the context of seeing public health advice to not wash chicken (the NHS also says no to washing, so it's not just a US chicken thing, but cendawanita makes a good point about chicken being different elsewhere), so it's always felt a bit like, I don't know, advice to not throw raw beef at the television.
I suppose I realized that they wouldn't put out those warnings if washing chicken wasn't a thing somewhere, but I'm amazed to learn chicken washers walk among us and are even in this very thread, and yep, I now understand why you exist even if I cannot support your methods.
posted by zachlipton at 1:54 AM on May 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
I suppose I realized that they wouldn't put out those warnings if washing chicken wasn't a thing somewhere, but I'm amazed to learn chicken washers walk among us and are even in this very thread, and yep, I now understand why you exist even if I cannot support your methods.
posted by zachlipton at 1:54 AM on May 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
The real question is how frequently one should wash the chicken-washing towel.
And for Pete's sake, don't use the chicken-washing towel on the penis beaker.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:59 AM on May 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
And for Pete's sake, don't use the chicken-washing towel on the penis beaker.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:59 AM on May 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
Metafilter: What kind of fucked up chickens are you people buying?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:00 AM on May 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:00 AM on May 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
Don't call it washing, call it wet brining.
Yes, this exactly. I perfected my skinless chicken breast prep last year, and going straight from the package into a bowl full of lukewarm water with salt and sugar added is my first step. That can last anywhere from 1-3 hours, then the chicken is removed and the waste brine carefully poured down the drain (and the sink cleaned). It's striking, the amount of added juiciness and flavour this step brings.
I remember thinking that you needed to wash chicken back when I was an undergrad and didn't know shit, but I've not done it in years. That said, I'm pretty basic and have yet to tackle a whole chicken, so I can see where the practice might be useful/feel more natural.
posted by Ten Cold Hot Dogs at 2:04 AM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Yes, this exactly. I perfected my skinless chicken breast prep last year, and going straight from the package into a bowl full of lukewarm water with salt and sugar added is my first step. That can last anywhere from 1-3 hours, then the chicken is removed and the waste brine carefully poured down the drain (and the sink cleaned). It's striking, the amount of added juiciness and flavour this step brings.
I remember thinking that you needed to wash chicken back when I was an undergrad and didn't know shit, but I've not done it in years. That said, I'm pretty basic and have yet to tackle a whole chicken, so I can see where the practice might be useful/feel more natural.
posted by Ten Cold Hot Dogs at 2:04 AM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
I don’t wash boneless breasts or individual pieces but I sure as heck rinse whole birds (chickens and turkeys) and their cavities before stuffing etc. This is how I was always told to do it by parents/grandparents.* This thread is literally the first time I learned that everyone did not do that.
*As data point: white people from Virginia, mostly
posted by thivaia at 2:11 AM on May 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
*As data point: white people from Virginia, mostly
posted by thivaia at 2:11 AM on May 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
> so it's always felt a bit like, I don't know, advice to not throw raw beef at the television.
[record scratch]
posted by ardgedee at 3:10 AM on May 3, 2019 [10 favorites]
[record scratch]
posted by ardgedee at 3:10 AM on May 3, 2019 [10 favorites]
OK, fine, I won't clean chicken. But what does the CDC have to say about cleaning with chicken?
posted by St. Oops at 4:02 AM on May 3, 2019
posted by St. Oops at 4:02 AM on May 3, 2019
Wash chicken? WTF??? Pat it dry with paper towels, sure (as I do with all meats) But, like, put it under running water or something? Nah. Surely not.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:13 AM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Thorzdad at 4:13 AM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
I think the purpose was to remove hairs and such, but I remember my grandmother putting the chicken in the sink, dousing it with alcohol and setting it on fire. Don't think anybody washes chicken with water around here.
posted by each day we work at 4:18 AM on May 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by each day we work at 4:18 AM on May 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
Washing before breading?? That's not helpful. That's what the egg is for. Wetting the chicken before flour dredge will make the flour stick worse and come off when cooking.
I'm going to try this gently... saying "don't care what the CDC says I'm washing my chicken" to get germs off rings very familiarly. I hear the same sort of "my common sense and feelings means more than a well funded bunch of science from a non political entity". Which is a minor but related example to anti vaccines, climate denial, Yada Yada. They're re not equivalent in seriousness but I can see the overlapping circles of the Venn diagram.
posted by chasles at 4:35 AM on May 3, 2019 [43 favorites]
I'm going to try this gently... saying "don't care what the CDC says I'm washing my chicken" to get germs off rings very familiarly. I hear the same sort of "my common sense and feelings means more than a well funded bunch of science from a non political entity". Which is a minor but related example to anti vaccines, climate denial, Yada Yada. They're re not equivalent in seriousness but I can see the overlapping circles of the Venn diagram.
posted by chasles at 4:35 AM on May 3, 2019 [43 favorites]
Reading about "chicken slime" as a normal thing makes me happy with my vegetarian life choices.
posted by greermahoney at 4:47 AM on May 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by greermahoney at 4:47 AM on May 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
I just don't see how you're supposed to exfoliate and moisturize the chicken if you don't wash it first? This is like skin care 101 people.
posted by some loser at 4:50 AM on May 3, 2019 [20 favorites]
posted by some loser at 4:50 AM on May 3, 2019 [20 favorites]
If the CDC's position is that you don't need to wash the chicken because the cooking will take care of the germs, does that mean I should or should not have washed this dish?
posted by Bugbread at 4:53 AM on May 3, 2019
posted by Bugbread at 4:53 AM on May 3, 2019
don't use the chicken-washing towel on the penis beaker
I think I may have been washing the wrong cock all these years...
posted by Segundus at 5:14 AM on May 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
I think I may have been washing the wrong cock all these years...
posted by Segundus at 5:14 AM on May 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
Don't wash my chicken? But what if she's been jumping in mud puddles?
posted by xingcat at 5:22 AM on May 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by xingcat at 5:22 AM on May 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
I read the post title a little too quickly and though the recommendation was to not wash your children, which seemed like an interesting new approach to parenting.
I always rinse whole chicken in the sink and pat dry with paper towels, then wash out the sink with soap and hot water. Not gonna stop doing that way.
posted by briank at 5:23 AM on May 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
I always rinse whole chicken in the sink and pat dry with paper towels, then wash out the sink with soap and hot water. Not gonna stop doing that way.
posted by briank at 5:23 AM on May 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
Well I hope you chicken washers at least have the decency to offer your bird a nice blow dry after. That all starts to make sense, now.
posted by Western Infidels at 5:24 AM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Western Infidels at 5:24 AM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Good point on the antivax/chicken-washing nexus. However, rigorously excluding all possible unclean reasoning from one’s life seems almost to deny one’s humanity. I am not a chicken-washer (except if it needs it) but I’d be comfortable continuing the practice in the same way I still take a multi-vitamin even though the current advice is apparently that it’s better not to.
If everyone would confine themselves to chicken-washing as their one anti-science indulgence, the planet would be vastly better off (and T. Rump would vanish in a puff of greasy smoke).
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 5:27 AM on May 3, 2019
If everyone would confine themselves to chicken-washing as their one anti-science indulgence, the planet would be vastly better off (and T. Rump would vanish in a puff of greasy smoke).
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 5:27 AM on May 3, 2019
Umm, yeah. You go ahead and not wash your chicken. Me, I know how poultry is processed. And personally, I like to rinse it, in hopes of removing at least some of the filth that the chicken pieces have been in contact with. Sure, cooking will kill off any bacteria in that filth, but filth is filth, and I'd rather not eat it, cooked or not.
See, the water dunk tank that is used to quick-chill the chicken carcasses in the commercial slaughter process has been accurately described as "fecal soup". And that's what your chicken has been submerged in as part of the standard slaughter process.
Which is why air-cooled chicken is far superior. But if you can't get it, and if you can't stomach the thought of a fecal film on your chicken, rinse it. It won't get rid of all of it, but it'll help. "Fresh" chicken is also sprayed with a weak bleach solution to extend its shelf-life. Another reason to rinse.
posted by Lunaloon at 5:29 AM on May 3, 2019 [9 favorites]
See, the water dunk tank that is used to quick-chill the chicken carcasses in the commercial slaughter process has been accurately described as "fecal soup". And that's what your chicken has been submerged in as part of the standard slaughter process.
Which is why air-cooled chicken is far superior. But if you can't get it, and if you can't stomach the thought of a fecal film on your chicken, rinse it. It won't get rid of all of it, but it'll help. "Fresh" chicken is also sprayed with a weak bleach solution to extend its shelf-life. Another reason to rinse.
posted by Lunaloon at 5:29 AM on May 3, 2019 [9 favorites]
A drive through car wash might be the way to go.
posted by DJZouke at 5:33 AM on May 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by DJZouke at 5:33 AM on May 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
Me, I know how poultry is processed
Me too, and it starts with chasing after a very lively chicken in my friend's back yard. They get a rinse only because the water helps the plucking machine carry the feathers away.
Pheasants go straight from the game pouch to an aging chamber for several days, then plucked and gutted. A quick pat with paper towels helps find any stray shot.
posted by backseatpilot at 5:36 AM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
Me too, and it starts with chasing after a very lively chicken in my friend's back yard. They get a rinse only because the water helps the plucking machine carry the feathers away.
Pheasants go straight from the game pouch to an aging chamber for several days, then plucked and gutted. A quick pat with paper towels helps find any stray shot.
posted by backseatpilot at 5:36 AM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
I honestly feel like I walked in through the back door here onto Weird Metafilter or something. People wash their chickens?
posted by sockermom at 5:45 AM on May 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by sockermom at 5:45 AM on May 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
I know my chicken
You got to know your chicken
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:54 AM on May 3, 2019 [18 favorites]
You got to know your chicken
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:54 AM on May 3, 2019 [18 favorites]
I once went to a lake where there were a lot of people barbecuing and when I went to the bathhouse there were people washing chicken in the bathroom sinks. I had never heard of such s thing. It was pretty gross.
posted by Biblio at 6:00 AM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Biblio at 6:00 AM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
ALL of this distracts from the fact that the poultry industry could and should be doing a LOT more to keep salmonella out of the goddamn food supply in the first place.
posted by sexyrobot at 6:09 AM on May 3, 2019 [24 favorites]
posted by sexyrobot at 6:09 AM on May 3, 2019 [24 favorites]
It seems to me that the real health risk is people are not sterilizing their sinks/counters. I clean my sink, but I still don't wash meat there. I prepare a large bowl of brine and wash the meat in that. Yes, I wash chicken, and beef, and pork. Some of you have never bought discount meat from a corner store, and it shows. The butchering process can leave bone meal fragments on the meat, and that gross film does affect flavor.
posted by domo at 6:18 AM on May 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by domo at 6:18 AM on May 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
I worry there is an unexamined sort of classism involved here, because in recent years I've purchased chicken of all levels of price and quality, and it's the really cheap stuff I get the urge to rinse off, because it's slimy and gross and I don't normally associate those words with chicken flesh. If you're used to some real cheap chicken, you're probably used to giving it a quick wash to make yourself feel better about this sketchy chicken you're about to eat.
posted by neonrev at 6:26 AM on May 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by neonrev at 6:26 AM on May 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
This is why in my family we have been taking baths with our chickens. Just put everyone - kids and grandparents too! - in the hot tub, add some herbs and spices, and 15 minutes later everyone is clean and refreshingly aromatic.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 6:29 AM on May 3, 2019 [12 favorites]
posted by Foci for Analysis at 6:29 AM on May 3, 2019 [12 favorites]
Is this a practice that stems from before everyone started treating raw chicken like radioactive material? Because if so, this is even weirder.
posted by Automocar at 6:29 AM on May 3, 2019
posted by Automocar at 6:29 AM on May 3, 2019
I still intone "garbage hands for life" when handling raw chicken.
Source: Judge John Hodgman, featuring User #1.
And yes, I rinse that chicken. But I'm down with vaxxes and climate science.
posted by jaruwaan at 6:32 AM on May 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
Source: Judge John Hodgman, featuring User #1.
And yes, I rinse that chicken. But I'm down with vaxxes and climate science.
posted by jaruwaan at 6:32 AM on May 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
Is this just an American thing? MeFites in other countries, is chicken-washing a thing where you are?
posted by Bugbread at 6:35 AM on May 3, 2019
posted by Bugbread at 6:35 AM on May 3, 2019
before everyone started treating raw chicken like radioactive material
Radioactive chicken is definitely cleaner.
posted by flabdablet at 6:36 AM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Radioactive chicken is definitely cleaner.
posted by flabdablet at 6:36 AM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
So, being a "source material" kind of guy, I poked around and found the Chicken and Food Poisoning page on the CDC's website.
Which has the warning against washing chicken, and also says,
Which has the warning against washing chicken, and also says,
Use a food thermometer to make sure chicken is cooked to a safe internal temperature of 165°F.posted by mikelieman at 6:37 AM on May 3, 2019
Jets on or off? (Regional diff. maybe? We don't use parsley)
We only use the industrial strength jets to hose grandpa down if he insists on peeing in the tub. No grandpa, no one wants you to season the chicken, that's what the bath salts are for.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 6:40 AM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
We only use the industrial strength jets to hose grandpa down if he insists on peeing in the tub. No grandpa, no one wants you to season the chicken, that's what the bath salts are for.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 6:40 AM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
No grandpa, no one wants you to season the chicken, that's what the bath salts are for.
Brave. Have you seen a chicken on bath salts? One pulled a knife on me. (To be fair, I had a carving knife ready for the chicken.)
posted by xingcat at 6:46 AM on May 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
Brave. Have you seen a chicken on bath salts? One pulled a knife on me. (To be fair, I had a carving knife ready for the chicken.)
posted by xingcat at 6:46 AM on May 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
MeFites in other countries, is chicken-washing a thing where you are?
half the reason why i shared this article is the automatic revulsion from malaysians i know (who cook regularly and was brought up to be familiar with the kitchen*) during the inevitable discovery that 'americans don't clean their chicken'. but again, we are only lately used to supermarket chicken. poultry is still strongly wet market-associated.
*i had to add this caveat because then i remembered friends who went to uni in the US/UK after years of being sheltered middle class kids with domestic help and learned all the western adulting habits of their economic station
posted by cendawanita at 6:47 AM on May 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
half the reason why i shared this article is the automatic revulsion from malaysians i know (who cook regularly and was brought up to be familiar with the kitchen*) during the inevitable discovery that 'americans don't clean their chicken'. but again, we are only lately used to supermarket chicken. poultry is still strongly wet market-associated.
*i had to add this caveat because then i remembered friends who went to uni in the US/UK after years of being sheltered middle class kids with domestic help and learned all the western adulting habits of their economic station
posted by cendawanita at 6:47 AM on May 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
Bugbread how could you? Those Snoopy & Friends dishes belong in a prized display cabinet.
posted by lucidium at 6:49 AM on May 3, 2019
posted by lucidium at 6:49 AM on May 3, 2019
I'll frequently give chicken a quick rinse under the tap if I remember to, but that's it. I "remember to" less than 50% of the time and haven't died yet.
As controversial as this is - I think we can all agree that washing filets of fish with dishwashing soap is weird, yes?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:50 AM on May 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
As controversial as this is - I think we can all agree that washing filets of fish with dishwashing soap is weird, yes?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:50 AM on May 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
> Is this just an American thing? MeFites in other countries, is chicken-washing a thing where you are?
It shows up in Queenie, as an example of the Jamaican grandmother (who cleans the chicken) not agreeing with modern British ways.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:50 AM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
It shows up in Queenie, as an example of the Jamaican grandmother (who cleans the chicken) not agreeing with modern British ways.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:50 AM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Washing before breading?? That's not helpful. That's what the egg is for. Wetting the chicken before flour dredge will make the flour stick worse and come off when cooking.
Well, that depends what you're breading for. Egg washes are great for Schnitzel or Chicken Parmigiana. But straight up Southern-style Fried Chicken? I submerge the chicken pieces I am going to fry in buttermilk (usually in a casserole dish), cover and refrigerate for a bit, then dredge (or drop it in a bag ad shake it, Granny style )in whatever the flour/spice combo (Ia fair amount of Old Bay along with salt and pepper is traditional with my Virginia family, but the MS/LA relatives would quibble, and then probably add cayenne). Then fry in very well shortened/oiled flat bottomed skillet at medium-medium high heat (depending on your stove), turning regularly until cooked through, covering between turns if you're worried about the chicken staying moist.
Also, now I'm starving
posted by thivaia at 6:57 AM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
lucidium: "Bugbread how could you? Those Snoopy & Friends dishes belong in a prized display cabinet."
Hey, don't blame me, blame the owner of the restaurant (bar?) that decided that was a good plate to use to serve chicken sashimi.
posted by Bugbread at 7:01 AM on May 3, 2019
Hey, don't blame me, blame the owner of the restaurant (bar?) that decided that was a good plate to use to serve chicken sashimi.
posted by Bugbread at 7:01 AM on May 3, 2019
As someone who is constantly looking at the AskMeta "can I eat this?" posts and invariably thinking, "well, I would;" and as someone who thinks people can be overly binary/paranoid about what is and isn't "clean," this thread may have counterintuitively converted me to trying chicken-washing.
Not because of germs/bacteria/whatever. I completely believe that washing raw chicken *increases* the possibility of spreading microbes around. But thinking about why I'm smelling chicken funk on some bone-in pieces and not others has me wanting to try an experiment to see if there isn't a flavor effect.
posted by pykrete jungle at 7:06 AM on May 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
Not because of germs/bacteria/whatever. I completely believe that washing raw chicken *increases* the possibility of spreading microbes around. But thinking about why I'm smelling chicken funk on some bone-in pieces and not others has me wanting to try an experiment to see if there isn't a flavor effect.
posted by pykrete jungle at 7:06 AM on May 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
<>Is this just an American thing? MeFites in other countries, is chicken-washing a thing where you are?
Until a few years ago, the only way to buy chicken in Pakistan if you didn't have your own was to go down to the market, select your live chicken from the coop. The butcher would haul it out, slit its throat to make it halal and fling it into a bin to flap till it died. Then it would be hung up to drain blood, skinned (eating skin on chicken was not a thing) and chopped into pieces and trimmed of gunk. This would be done by the butcher sitting cross legged on an immense butcher block, holding a huge knife (almost a machete) between his toes.
Yes, we always wash our chicken in Pakistan.
posted by tavegyl at 7:12 AM on May 3, 2019 [16 favorites]
Until a few years ago, the only way to buy chicken in Pakistan if you didn't have your own was to go down to the market, select your live chicken from the coop. The butcher would haul it out, slit its throat to make it halal and fling it into a bin to flap till it died. Then it would be hung up to drain blood, skinned (eating skin on chicken was not a thing) and chopped into pieces and trimmed of gunk. This would be done by the butcher sitting cross legged on an immense butcher block, holding a huge knife (almost a machete) between his toes.
Yes, we always wash our chicken in Pakistan.
posted by tavegyl at 7:12 AM on May 3, 2019 [16 favorites]
> the owner of the restaurant (bar?) that decided that was a good plate to use
That's hilarious, and they've clearly got several of them, I hope specifically for that dish.
posted by lucidium at 7:15 AM on May 3, 2019
That's hilarious, and they've clearly got several of them, I hope specifically for that dish.
posted by lucidium at 7:15 AM on May 3, 2019
There's a whole load of assumptions here. A lot of white Americans are used to cuts of chicken that are already cleaned (as in cleaning a fish, not as in cleaning your room). We're never going to see stray feathers, nor bits of tendon. The notion of then taking that chicken to the sink to wash it is absurd.
On the other hand, if you're Caribbean-American, you're probably used to getting chicken from the market that's very likely fresher, but less processed. Of course you'd wash (clean) your chicken!
Or maybe I'm even missing a third use of the word? We talk about "egg washes" for bread, are people calling a liquid coating (aka marinade) a "wash", and the CDC didn't realize this?
posted by explosion at 7:32 AM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
On the other hand, if you're Caribbean-American, you're probably used to getting chicken from the market that's very likely fresher, but less processed. Of course you'd wash (clean) your chicken!
Or maybe I'm even missing a third use of the word? We talk about "egg washes" for bread, are people calling a liquid coating (aka marinade) a "wash", and the CDC didn't realize this?
posted by explosion at 7:32 AM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Well I hope you chicken washers at least have the decency to offer your bird a nice blow dry after.
And it goes perfectly with a fish course of Vincent Price's dishwasher-poached salmon
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:38 AM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
And it goes perfectly with a fish course of Vincent Price's dishwasher-poached salmon
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:38 AM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
There’s a grocery store — ok. It’s not a grocery store. It’s a restaurant food supply retailer. But it’s near me, and you don’t have to be a wholesaler to shop there, and often they have really good prices on meat. For example, they sell a box of 40 lbs of chicken hindquarters for $22.
Now, this comes with a couple of catches. First, the chicken isn’t IQF; the box contains four bags, each of which has a solid block of 10 pounds of chicken in it. Second, the box says “chicken hindquarters,” and it turns out that means not just that the thigh-and-drumstick leg, but also that the back is still attached — basically they cut off the breast portion and then chop the back in half along the spine, and them’s your chicken quarters. And last, and most crucially relevant to this post, they haven’t been picked over after having been cleaned, so there’s still little fragments of chicken hearts and gizzards and livers and, I dunno, spleens and whatnot attached to the back. And since you have to thaw ten pounds of chicken at a go, by the time you get to trimming the quarters into drumsticks and thighs (reserving the backs for stock), there is a fair amount of sort of … offal-y goo that’s lingeringly present.
I wash the HELL out of that chicken when I’m done with it. I don’t buy it that often, because it’s such a pain to deal with. But I can get three meals for four people plus a great stock out of each $5.50 bag of ten pounds of chicken quarters, and sometimes the family budget makes the time involved seem worth it.
posted by KathrynT at 7:39 AM on May 3, 2019 [11 favorites]
Now, this comes with a couple of catches. First, the chicken isn’t IQF; the box contains four bags, each of which has a solid block of 10 pounds of chicken in it. Second, the box says “chicken hindquarters,” and it turns out that means not just that the thigh-and-drumstick leg, but also that the back is still attached — basically they cut off the breast portion and then chop the back in half along the spine, and them’s your chicken quarters. And last, and most crucially relevant to this post, they haven’t been picked over after having been cleaned, so there’s still little fragments of chicken hearts and gizzards and livers and, I dunno, spleens and whatnot attached to the back. And since you have to thaw ten pounds of chicken at a go, by the time you get to trimming the quarters into drumsticks and thighs (reserving the backs for stock), there is a fair amount of sort of … offal-y goo that’s lingeringly present.
I wash the HELL out of that chicken when I’m done with it. I don’t buy it that often, because it’s such a pain to deal with. But I can get three meals for four people plus a great stock out of each $5.50 bag of ten pounds of chicken quarters, and sometimes the family budget makes the time involved seem worth it.
posted by KathrynT at 7:39 AM on May 3, 2019 [11 favorites]
A drive through car wash might be the way to go.
Nah, I find a toothbrush and half a can of Comet does the trick.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:41 AM on May 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
Nah, I find a toothbrush and half a can of Comet does the trick.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:41 AM on May 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
I don't even always wash vegetables, it's just dirt and pesticides and crap. What's the worst that could happen? AFAIK only getting horribly sick or dying and obviously those risks are always worth the hassle. Never knew washing chicken was a thing. Maybe if it's frozen, I'll run it under water to separate.
posted by GoblinHoney at 8:01 AM on May 3, 2019
posted by GoblinHoney at 8:01 AM on May 3, 2019
Ah jeezus. I'm so sorry the writer's parents didn't know squat about cooking.
The first part of mother's ritual for cooking chickens required her to go into the coop and catch one. After one or two intermediate, but comparatively humane steps, the washing itself involved a bucket of scalding water, which helped with what we called the chicken plucking phase of the operation. Perhaps many of you think of "chicken plucking" as an abstract trochaic euphemism for a more pithy remark, but to me it was a sort of stinky process. The aroma of freshly scalded feathers still haunts me, even in my geezerhood.
Those who have experienced this entire process will of course be on the side of rinsing the damned carcass after the steps subsequent to chicken plucking have been accomplished.
I guess the new trend in vat-grown meats eventually will render these skills moot, and gradually cause us humans to lose touch with the joys of animal husbandry. More's the pity. Remind me, sometime, to tell you guys about where bacon really comes from.
posted by mule98J at 8:16 AM on May 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
The first part of mother's ritual for cooking chickens required her to go into the coop and catch one. After one or two intermediate, but comparatively humane steps, the washing itself involved a bucket of scalding water, which helped with what we called the chicken plucking phase of the operation. Perhaps many of you think of "chicken plucking" as an abstract trochaic euphemism for a more pithy remark, but to me it was a sort of stinky process. The aroma of freshly scalded feathers still haunts me, even in my geezerhood.
Those who have experienced this entire process will of course be on the side of rinsing the damned carcass after the steps subsequent to chicken plucking have been accomplished.
I guess the new trend in vat-grown meats eventually will render these skills moot, and gradually cause us humans to lose touch with the joys of animal husbandry. More's the pity. Remind me, sometime, to tell you guys about where bacon really comes from.
posted by mule98J at 8:16 AM on May 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
Like, if you have a deep sink and you don't blast it with high-speed water and don't re-use the sponge or rag or whatever and wash your hands thoroughly afterward and follow all of the other suggestions (dedicated, non-porous cutting board, etc) then you are probably not spreading germs all around. I doubt the CDC would issue this directive unless there were at least large volumes of anecdotal reports concerning legitimately dangerous chicken washing methods - in a public restroom sink, for example. At which point they had to make a choice - do they list good and bad ways to wash your chicken, or just err on the side of safety (as opposed to preference) and say please, sir, don't wash that chicken?
We know how that came out.
I don't wash my chicken, but I don't think chicken-washing is weird.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:20 AM on May 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
We know how that came out.
I don't wash my chicken, but I don't think chicken-washing is weird.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:20 AM on May 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
Man this post's comments are making me feel weird, especially the swerve into vaguely equating it to be anti-vax, big government can't tell me what to do. Black spaces I'm apart of elsewhere are having the opposite response, or raging debate, and... Look, I'm gonna tell a story. I am a black American person, I am not every black American person, this is not a black American cultural affidavit.
A few months ago I attended a training in a majority minority city you've probably heard of that's had a huge, ongoing public health crisis. Most of the attendees were black. One of the speakers near the end was an employee of the EPA. She was a white woman. She mentioned attending a community meeting or something similar in the same city a few years prior. Apparently one of the concerns that frequently came up about the aforementioned crisis is how people will be able to wash their meat with the low flow from a faucet mounted water filter.
She emphasized a few times about how different the city is culturally because she didn't know people washed their meat. It's so different! She repeatedly mentioned that it must be a City culture thing. It's usually recommended against, etc.
Lots of nervous chuckles and exchanging of looks.
Anyway I do this, my family does this. It's just a Done Thing. We have separate bowls and designated spaces to do it, etc. My background is southern and Caribbean so it probably has roots in basically raising your own livestock and fresher meat but idk. The intersection of government mandate and A Thing We Just Do Is... Difficult, especially in places like the aforementioned city where minority trust in a majority run government, even in different agencies and levels, effectively lead to a generational disaster. Like there's nuance and levels here with cultural expectations, differences and trust that I'm hardly seeing talked about except by users like cendawanita.
posted by Freeze Peach at 8:22 AM on May 3, 2019 [21 favorites]
A few months ago I attended a training in a majority minority city you've probably heard of that's had a huge, ongoing public health crisis. Most of the attendees were black. One of the speakers near the end was an employee of the EPA. She was a white woman. She mentioned attending a community meeting or something similar in the same city a few years prior. Apparently one of the concerns that frequently came up about the aforementioned crisis is how people will be able to wash their meat with the low flow from a faucet mounted water filter.
She emphasized a few times about how different the city is culturally because she didn't know people washed their meat. It's so different! She repeatedly mentioned that it must be a City culture thing. It's usually recommended against, etc.
Lots of nervous chuckles and exchanging of looks.
Anyway I do this, my family does this. It's just a Done Thing. We have separate bowls and designated spaces to do it, etc. My background is southern and Caribbean so it probably has roots in basically raising your own livestock and fresher meat but idk. The intersection of government mandate and A Thing We Just Do Is... Difficult, especially in places like the aforementioned city where minority trust in a majority run government, even in different agencies and levels, effectively lead to a generational disaster. Like there's nuance and levels here with cultural expectations, differences and trust that I'm hardly seeing talked about except by users like cendawanita.
posted by Freeze Peach at 8:22 AM on May 3, 2019 [21 favorites]
Yes, but what's the recommendation from the Centaur of Disease Control?
posted by Quasirandom at 8:22 AM on May 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by Quasirandom at 8:22 AM on May 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
My mother would rub the inside of a whole chicken with salt before stuffing it; it helped to abrade any bits that weren't pulled out properly. She then rinsed away the excess, but I can imagine a little more salt never hurt.
posted by jb at 8:29 AM on May 3, 2019
posted by jb at 8:29 AM on May 3, 2019
Commercial kitchens in general don't "wash" chicken parts or other animal proteins. If it's frozen there is sometimes a speed defrosting step involving running water and a large lexan but there are strict time and temp controls for this and the preferred method is to defrost over night in a fridge after removing it from the freezer.
There's none of this "patting dry" stuff, either. It's going to dry itself off in seconds after hitting the oven anyway.
A good, clean commercial kitchen tries to eliminate opportunities for cross contamination first and foremost, which means handling raw meat as little as possible. Cutting boards and tools for raw meat are usually color coded red, for example. Portions are usually bought cut to serving size or in forms like roasts or rib racks that are cut to size after cooking.
It's actually pretty rare these days that there's a lot of meat handling or butchering work going on in a commercial kitchen right on the line. If I've handled and prepped a bunch of raw meat I'm usually going for a scrub down and apron change after before moving on to, say, salad prep.
We also religiously use probe thermometers and are trained in how to calibrate them, both analog and digital.
If you cook meat you really need a probe thermometer. Beyond safety reasons using a probe thermometer means you can cook food a lot better without overcooking or undercooking and there's no weird guesswork like "is it still spurting blood when you poke it with a fork or is it clear yet?" which is not a reliable indicator.
Or just eat less meat. It's fucking gross.
posted by loquacious at 8:32 AM on May 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
There's none of this "patting dry" stuff, either. It's going to dry itself off in seconds after hitting the oven anyway.
A good, clean commercial kitchen tries to eliminate opportunities for cross contamination first and foremost, which means handling raw meat as little as possible. Cutting boards and tools for raw meat are usually color coded red, for example. Portions are usually bought cut to serving size or in forms like roasts or rib racks that are cut to size after cooking.
It's actually pretty rare these days that there's a lot of meat handling or butchering work going on in a commercial kitchen right on the line. If I've handled and prepped a bunch of raw meat I'm usually going for a scrub down and apron change after before moving on to, say, salad prep.
We also religiously use probe thermometers and are trained in how to calibrate them, both analog and digital.
If you cook meat you really need a probe thermometer. Beyond safety reasons using a probe thermometer means you can cook food a lot better without overcooking or undercooking and there's no weird guesswork like "is it still spurting blood when you poke it with a fork or is it clear yet?" which is not a reliable indicator.
Or just eat less meat. It's fucking gross.
posted by loquacious at 8:32 AM on May 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
And the metrics in my last comment definitely do not apply if you're butchering your own fresh chickens. This all presumes it's commercially butchered and rendered chickens, especially stuff that's been cleaned properly at the butcher or store. And by "cleaned properly" we're just talking about removing unwanted gristle, blood, feathers and fat, not rinsing it off because the wet stuff outside is somehow dirtier than the wet stuff inside.
I have butchered and plucked chickens. It's super gross. A chicken will keep moving and fighting up to ten minutes or more after the removal of the head and it's really alarming. And plucking is absolutely no fun at all and despite what many people claim, this work and appreciation of it does not seem to make the food taste better.
posted by loquacious at 8:38 AM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
I have butchered and plucked chickens. It's super gross. A chicken will keep moving and fighting up to ten minutes or more after the removal of the head and it's really alarming. And plucking is absolutely no fun at all and despite what many people claim, this work and appreciation of it does not seem to make the food taste better.
posted by loquacious at 8:38 AM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
All this talk of dirty chickens has me wondering when Impossible Chicken will be available.
posted by waving at 8:52 AM on May 3, 2019
posted by waving at 8:52 AM on May 3, 2019
Or just eat less meat. It's fucking gross.
Counterpoint: meat is delicious.
posted by Automocar at 9:10 AM on May 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
Counterpoint: meat is delicious.
posted by Automocar at 9:10 AM on May 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
I've always washed. White city person, for the record. I had no idea that anyone didn't wash!
I hear the CDC that splashing chicken water all over the kitchen is a bad idea. But lots of poultry you still have to process when you get home anyway -- how are you not going to rinse it during/after? Like try cooking chicken livers without any kind of cleaning process. You've got to cut all those white bits off and everything before you can even start doing anything else. And whole chickens are covered in/filled with "juice" and gunk and you're pulling stuff out of their body cavity, there is going to have to be cleaning involved before cooking. I'm also just imagining peeling chicken thighs off of that gross sodden pad that's always at the bottom of their styrofoam container and putting them right on the plate to start seasoning them and blech. I'm sorry, I'm not actually uptight about food safety at all but that's just about the least appetizing thing I can think of.
That said, I'm about 90% vegetarian and can probably count on one hand the times I've cooked meat at home in the last two years, so my POV is pretty irrelevant. Maybe I'll try the flour slurry next time, though -- it seems like a good idea.
posted by rue72 at 9:38 AM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
I hear the CDC that splashing chicken water all over the kitchen is a bad idea. But lots of poultry you still have to process when you get home anyway -- how are you not going to rinse it during/after? Like try cooking chicken livers without any kind of cleaning process. You've got to cut all those white bits off and everything before you can even start doing anything else. And whole chickens are covered in/filled with "juice" and gunk and you're pulling stuff out of their body cavity, there is going to have to be cleaning involved before cooking. I'm also just imagining peeling chicken thighs off of that gross sodden pad that's always at the bottom of their styrofoam container and putting them right on the plate to start seasoning them and blech. I'm sorry, I'm not actually uptight about food safety at all but that's just about the least appetizing thing I can think of.
That said, I'm about 90% vegetarian and can probably count on one hand the times I've cooked meat at home in the last two years, so my POV is pretty irrelevant. Maybe I'll try the flour slurry next time, though -- it seems like a good idea.
posted by rue72 at 9:38 AM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
I agree that there is no point to washing boneless skinless chicken cutlets before grilling them without spices.
Well, sure, if you're eating unspiced boneless skinless chicken breast, you're already in Hell, which means you're already dead and don't need to worry about germs.
posted by jackbishop at 9:45 AM on May 3, 2019 [12 favorites]
Well, sure, if you're eating unspiced boneless skinless chicken breast, you're already in Hell, which means you're already dead and don't need to worry about germs.
posted by jackbishop at 9:45 AM on May 3, 2019 [12 favorites]
Counterpoint: meat is delicious.
Speaking as an omnivore that likes cooking and eating delicious things:
Is it really? Then why does it almost always need so much heavy seasoning?
Apologies for flogging the dead chicken, but this is something brought up a lot by meat eaters, that meat itself tastes good but I've had a lot of vegan friends point out that this isn't actually often reflected in practice. Eating unseasoned baked chicken with no salt or anything at all is usually really quite, err, foul.
The psychology is that we do like the fat and protein, especially with salt and seasoning. We're wired for it. There's a dopamine hit that's more than just a little psychologically addictive, which is why we love things like bacon, potato chips and french fries and umami-tasting things.
But the taste of meat all by itself? Compare the flavor of an unseasoned, unsalted commodity hamburger patty - especially one from a fast food joint - to, say, an apple or carrot. An apple or carrot has tons of flavor right out of the gate. Hell, even an unsalted baked potato or piece of raw celery generally has more appealing flavor or any flavor at all.
And I'm saying this as someone who can really cook and can nail complicated protein dishes across the spectrum from fish and foul to sow and steer. I can bake chicken and slow smoke tri-tip right to the edge of maximum presentation and flavor, limited only by the quality of the source and meat. I also now live somewhere surrounded by farms, there's free range grass fed beef being raised just down the road.
Pardon the presentation of credentials, but I have the knack and the taste for cooking. I've had accomplished, jaded chefs give me rare praise for my natural skills and nose for flavor.
Most meat doesn't actually taste good by itself. There's some rare, notable examples like sashimi or perhaps oysters, or just lightly steamed fresh salmon. But even sushi is seasoned with salty soy sauce and vinegar rice and wasabi, and that's about as light as it gets. Slow smoking is a major flavor enhancer even if minimal, and even then there's usually a dry rub being used.
And more and more I'm having a hard time justifying the environmental impact of the meat industry, as well as the practice of eating animals and animals products. It is by almost all metrics totally disgusting as an industry, if not completely shameful from the perspective of environmental damage and gentle, humane living.
And I don't think most people could actually handle killing and butchering their own meat. I think most people in the US today would find it to be highly traumatic, especially if it was an animal they raised or got to know. These animals have personalities and they're not at all into the idea of being slaughtered and eaten, and this is very visible and self evident when it happens.
And there's a ton of really good mock meat and protein alternatives. Sure, they'll never be the same, but why do they need to be? Some of them are their own thing and delicious flavor profiles. Very well done fried tofu with a nice stir fry sauce can be more umami and good flavor and texture than a steak. And there's a lot more access to vegetarian or vegan cooking these days and great produce and ingredients. My friends make vegan waffles that are utterly addictive and decadent.
More and more I'm asking "Why eat meat?" and it seems like a lot of people are asking the same questions.
posted by loquacious at 10:00 AM on May 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
Speaking as an omnivore that likes cooking and eating delicious things:
Is it really? Then why does it almost always need so much heavy seasoning?
Apologies for flogging the dead chicken, but this is something brought up a lot by meat eaters, that meat itself tastes good but I've had a lot of vegan friends point out that this isn't actually often reflected in practice. Eating unseasoned baked chicken with no salt or anything at all is usually really quite, err, foul.
The psychology is that we do like the fat and protein, especially with salt and seasoning. We're wired for it. There's a dopamine hit that's more than just a little psychologically addictive, which is why we love things like bacon, potato chips and french fries and umami-tasting things.
But the taste of meat all by itself? Compare the flavor of an unseasoned, unsalted commodity hamburger patty - especially one from a fast food joint - to, say, an apple or carrot. An apple or carrot has tons of flavor right out of the gate. Hell, even an unsalted baked potato or piece of raw celery generally has more appealing flavor or any flavor at all.
And I'm saying this as someone who can really cook and can nail complicated protein dishes across the spectrum from fish and foul to sow and steer. I can bake chicken and slow smoke tri-tip right to the edge of maximum presentation and flavor, limited only by the quality of the source and meat. I also now live somewhere surrounded by farms, there's free range grass fed beef being raised just down the road.
Pardon the presentation of credentials, but I have the knack and the taste for cooking. I've had accomplished, jaded chefs give me rare praise for my natural skills and nose for flavor.
Most meat doesn't actually taste good by itself. There's some rare, notable examples like sashimi or perhaps oysters, or just lightly steamed fresh salmon. But even sushi is seasoned with salty soy sauce and vinegar rice and wasabi, and that's about as light as it gets. Slow smoking is a major flavor enhancer even if minimal, and even then there's usually a dry rub being used.
And more and more I'm having a hard time justifying the environmental impact of the meat industry, as well as the practice of eating animals and animals products. It is by almost all metrics totally disgusting as an industry, if not completely shameful from the perspective of environmental damage and gentle, humane living.
And I don't think most people could actually handle killing and butchering their own meat. I think most people in the US today would find it to be highly traumatic, especially if it was an animal they raised or got to know. These animals have personalities and they're not at all into the idea of being slaughtered and eaten, and this is very visible and self evident when it happens.
And there's a ton of really good mock meat and protein alternatives. Sure, they'll never be the same, but why do they need to be? Some of them are their own thing and delicious flavor profiles. Very well done fried tofu with a nice stir fry sauce can be more umami and good flavor and texture than a steak. And there's a lot more access to vegetarian or vegan cooking these days and great produce and ingredients. My friends make vegan waffles that are utterly addictive and decadent.
More and more I'm asking "Why eat meat?" and it seems like a lot of people are asking the same questions.
posted by loquacious at 10:00 AM on May 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
After washing my chicken I have to condition it, or my chicken will be frizzy all day.
posted by Cookiebastard at 10:14 AM on May 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by Cookiebastard at 10:14 AM on May 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
oooh, one of our ritual kitchen arguments shows up on Mefi! I read the "don't wash" CDC warning a couple of years ago, so have been pushing the "don't wash" line. My husband (Greek, for bugbread's question) resists. So every time, we have to have an argument about whether or not to wash the chicken. It seems like we could debate it once, in depth, and let the result stand for future chickenings, but no. It's necessary to have the chicken washing argument every time there is chicken cooking happening. It keeps our marriage fresh and exciting, according to my husband.
Fwiw, I always rinsed chicken before the CDC thing, but we have a small kitchen with small single sink with drainboard where washed dishes go, and no dishwasher ... and husband splashes about a gallon of water onto the floor and counters whenever he washes dishes ... or rinses anything in the sink, so our unfriendly-to-chicken-washing physical arrangements also inform my pro-CDC stance.
posted by taz at 10:21 AM on May 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
Fwiw, I always rinsed chicken before the CDC thing, but we have a small kitchen with small single sink with drainboard where washed dishes go, and no dishwasher ... and husband splashes about a gallon of water onto the floor and counters whenever he washes dishes ... or rinses anything in the sink, so our unfriendly-to-chicken-washing physical arrangements also inform my pro-CDC stance.
posted by taz at 10:21 AM on May 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
Mostly any non-junk food doesn't taste good/flavorful on its own, fruit and some veg excepted. I mean, you do you and eat your plain baked potato, but that's a really odd argument.
posted by Automocar at 10:24 AM on May 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by Automocar at 10:24 AM on May 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
DICK SMOTHERS: My old man's a cotton-picking, finger-licking chicken washer, what do you think about that?
CDC: I think you'd better not make a mistake.
posted by drlith at 10:25 AM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
CDC: I think you'd better not make a mistake.
posted by drlith at 10:25 AM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
Counterpoint: meat is delicious.
Speaking as an omnivore that likes cooking and eating delicious things:
Is it really? Then why does it almost always need so much heavy seasoning?
Because industrial practices for producing meat don't care about flavor. They care about fast, cheap growth.
I've said it several time before on here, but I'll say it again. I raise heritage bread chickens (and rabbits) for meat. Industrial chickens reach slaughter weight by 8 weeks. We raise our chicken on pasture and slaughter at around 4-6 months. Our chicken is incredibly delicious. Supermarket chicken to me tastes like nothing.
Also, we slaughter and process our meat. It is my hands on it from slaughter to packaging to cooking. I know it is clean and fresh, yet still I rinse before cooking. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by slipthought at 10:28 AM on May 3, 2019 [12 favorites]
Speaking as an omnivore that likes cooking and eating delicious things:
Is it really? Then why does it almost always need so much heavy seasoning?
Because industrial practices for producing meat don't care about flavor. They care about fast, cheap growth.
I've said it several time before on here, but I'll say it again. I raise heritage bread chickens (and rabbits) for meat. Industrial chickens reach slaughter weight by 8 weeks. We raise our chicken on pasture and slaughter at around 4-6 months. Our chicken is incredibly delicious. Supermarket chicken to me tastes like nothing.
Also, we slaughter and process our meat. It is my hands on it from slaughter to packaging to cooking. I know it is clean and fresh, yet still I rinse before cooking. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by slipthought at 10:28 AM on May 3, 2019 [12 favorites]
Yeah, I'm sorry but that argument seems like a thing you tell yourself because you want it to be true because it'd make convincing people to stop eating meat easier. I'd take a bite out of an unseasoned, cooked hamburger patty over an unseasoned baked potato any day. Also, most vegetables are similarly not very tasty without seasoning -- brussels sprouts for example are delicious, but not if you roast them dry without salt, fat, or acid.
posted by tocts at 10:28 AM on May 3, 2019 [14 favorites]
posted by tocts at 10:28 AM on May 3, 2019 [14 favorites]
Don't wash your chicken. Don't kiss your chicken. Don't dress your chicken up in costumes. Is it me, or does the CDC seem awfully damn interested in the finer details of what we do and don't do with our chickens in the privacy of our own homes?
I'm beginning to suspect that CDC Director Robert Redfield is just some pervy chicken fetishist.
posted by Naberius at 10:43 AM on May 3, 2019 [9 favorites]
I'm beginning to suspect that CDC Director Robert Redfield is just some pervy chicken fetishist.
posted by Naberius at 10:43 AM on May 3, 2019 [9 favorites]
My wife washes all meat, including steaks and hamburger. It's really odd, but her sister boils all meat first including hamburger, so I sort of consider myself lucky. They are not from the sticks and have never butchered anything- they grew up in a SoCal suburbia beach city.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:08 AM on May 3, 2019
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:08 AM on May 3, 2019
I grew up washing chickens, that's just how everybody did it -- white suburbia, but everybody did it that way. I was moderately horrified, however, when the CDC changed the recommendation and mentioned that a lot of people don't wash their sink after washing the chicken in it and there was salmonella everywhere. ACK! But I'm a little obsessive about raw meat cleaning-up-after. Anyway, I don't bother to wash supermarket chicken anymore since the CDC changed the rule, unless there's something visible that seems to need washing.
"I read the post title a little too quickly and though the recommendation was to not wash your children, "
Crap, this literally just reminded me I forgot to give my children a bath.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:25 AM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
"I read the post title a little too quickly and though the recommendation was to not wash your children, "
Crap, this literally just reminded me I forgot to give my children a bath.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:25 AM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
Don't bathe your children! You'll just spread their germs all over!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:30 AM on May 3, 2019 [12 favorites]
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:30 AM on May 3, 2019 [12 favorites]
I hear several of you balking at this CDC report. May I join?
balk balk blak BALK balk balk BALK
posted by hal9k at 11:35 AM on May 3, 2019 [12 favorites]
balk balk blak BALK balk balk BALK
posted by hal9k at 11:35 AM on May 3, 2019 [12 favorites]
Don't dress your chicken up in costumes.
Amelia Bedelia dressed the chicken.
posted by carrioncomfort at 11:38 AM on May 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
Amelia Bedelia dressed the chicken.
posted by carrioncomfort at 11:38 AM on May 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
I don't normally wash my chicken, except in the cases domo mentioned above. When I buy chicken that has been heavily butchered, there's a risk of bone fragments. So I rinse it to get rid of those little bits (assuming it's not going in a stock pot).
But honestly, I have this problem more with poorly butchered pork ribs than chicken. Blech. Tiny bone bits are the worst.
Anyway, I hate rinsing meat. It's a PITA and potentially unsanitary, as the CDC notes. Anyone who thinks otherwise has beenpoultrybrainwashed.
I blame Julia Childs for Americans thinking they need to wash their chicken. She always did it, and she was always wrong. There's a really famous exchange between her and Jacques Pepin where she's going on about needing to wash the chicken to make it clean, and he looks at her and says, "If this chicken can survive a 425F oven for an hour and still make me sick, then it deserves to kill me."
posted by offalark at 11:52 AM on May 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
But honestly, I have this problem more with poorly butchered pork ribs than chicken. Blech. Tiny bone bits are the worst.
Anyway, I hate rinsing meat. It's a PITA and potentially unsanitary, as the CDC notes. Anyone who thinks otherwise has been
I blame Julia Childs for Americans thinking they need to wash their chicken. She always did it, and she was always wrong. There's a really famous exchange between her and Jacques Pepin where she's going on about needing to wash the chicken to make it clean, and he looks at her and says, "If this chicken can survive a 425F oven for an hour and still make me sick, then it deserves to kill me."
posted by offalark at 11:52 AM on May 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
Does torisashi get washed?
posted by BrotherCaine at 12:28 PM on May 3, 2019
posted by BrotherCaine at 12:28 PM on May 3, 2019
I'm not a pheasant plucker; I'm a pheasant plucker's son.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:38 PM on May 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:38 PM on May 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
Don't bathe your children! You'll just spread their germs all over!
But if you must, give the draining board a wipe over with bleach after.
posted by flabdablet at 12:54 PM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
But if you must, give the draining board a wipe over with bleach after.
posted by flabdablet at 12:54 PM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
Is it really? Then why does it almost always need so much heavy seasoning?
Yes it is and it doesn't? It seems like an odd approach to me. A raw potato isn't particularly appetizing, and I don't really think that veg has more flavor out of the gate, different flavor sure, but just that there's a socialization to eat veg raw that there isn't for meat (in the US at least). Plenty of people eat meat like they do veg, with just salt and pepper, I mean look at a lot of beef consumption, steak, hamburger, etc is often done without much outside of salt/pepper?
I certainly appreciate the through process, but I think you're approaching this for your unique perspective and it doesn't reflect what I've seen. Which is fair, but it's a broad statement to make on the back of that.
posted by Carillon at 1:01 PM on May 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
Yes it is and it doesn't? It seems like an odd approach to me. A raw potato isn't particularly appetizing, and I don't really think that veg has more flavor out of the gate, different flavor sure, but just that there's a socialization to eat veg raw that there isn't for meat (in the US at least). Plenty of people eat meat like they do veg, with just salt and pepper, I mean look at a lot of beef consumption, steak, hamburger, etc is often done without much outside of salt/pepper?
I certainly appreciate the through process, but I think you're approaching this for your unique perspective and it doesn't reflect what I've seen. Which is fair, but it's a broad statement to make on the back of that.
posted by Carillon at 1:01 PM on May 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
I think it's also a broad statement and privilege that everyone can afford high quality, really exceptionally good tasting meat from sustainable livestock or that this can scale or be affordable to everyone.
I think it's super weird that an unseasoned fast food burger patty might be more appetizing or flavorful than a good potato or even more flavorful vegetables, raw or cooked.
I'm not making my case well. I promise I'm not actually one of those annoying vegans, but I can't help but notice some dichotomies and complicated things going on with our meat-heavy diets.
And I've tried bringing up the "Hey, food can be addictive!" thing about how it's also a dopamine trigger before, and it's not a super popular opinion for a lot of people because they don't like hearing that some of their favorite food choices might end up being catastrophic for both personal health and our general environmental health and sustainability
I'm not intending to be judgemental. I make many of the same choices and I'm starkly aware that I have self-medicated with food choices that trigger this dopamine response, and it's something I struggle with that seems to be more complicated than simply overeating or boredom eating.
My menu while volunteering at the food bank just this last Wednesday was a protein-and-junk-food heavy smorgasbord ranging from vegan polenta to a pre-made ham and gouda sandwich to a bunch of Impossible Chicken strips over a kale salad followed by a couple of unexpected pulled pork sandwiches for dinner with my friend's family, and then later I ate most of a jar of peanut butter with some jerky sticks and a little too much dark chocolate.
But I want to stand up and loudly say that more and more I can't personally justify actually buying meat just because it tastes good. That it's more than just environmental or personal diet health, too. That these animals have brains and even thoughts and feelings and deserve to not be eaten, nor bred en masse in captivity for any reason, and that these practices are mostly cruel, and I have a hard time stomaching the practices of eating meat.
And it's complicated and there's a lot of emotions about it.
Anyways, pass the avocados. If someone could bioengineer an avocado tree that grows in the PNW right next to apple trees that'd be just swell by me.
posted by loquacious at 1:25 PM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
I think it's super weird that an unseasoned fast food burger patty might be more appetizing or flavorful than a good potato or even more flavorful vegetables, raw or cooked.
I'm not making my case well. I promise I'm not actually one of those annoying vegans, but I can't help but notice some dichotomies and complicated things going on with our meat-heavy diets.
And I've tried bringing up the "Hey, food can be addictive!" thing about how it's also a dopamine trigger before, and it's not a super popular opinion for a lot of people because they don't like hearing that some of their favorite food choices might end up being catastrophic for both personal health and our general environmental health and sustainability
I'm not intending to be judgemental. I make many of the same choices and I'm starkly aware that I have self-medicated with food choices that trigger this dopamine response, and it's something I struggle with that seems to be more complicated than simply overeating or boredom eating.
My menu while volunteering at the food bank just this last Wednesday was a protein-and-junk-food heavy smorgasbord ranging from vegan polenta to a pre-made ham and gouda sandwich to a bunch of Impossible Chicken strips over a kale salad followed by a couple of unexpected pulled pork sandwiches for dinner with my friend's family, and then later I ate most of a jar of peanut butter with some jerky sticks and a little too much dark chocolate.
But I want to stand up and loudly say that more and more I can't personally justify actually buying meat just because it tastes good. That it's more than just environmental or personal diet health, too. That these animals have brains and even thoughts and feelings and deserve to not be eaten, nor bred en masse in captivity for any reason, and that these practices are mostly cruel, and I have a hard time stomaching the practices of eating meat.
And it's complicated and there's a lot of emotions about it.
Anyways, pass the avocados. If someone could bioengineer an avocado tree that grows in the PNW right next to apple trees that'd be just swell by me.
posted by loquacious at 1:25 PM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
As one of the comments for the piece asks, what can a little water do that a half hour at 425 degrees can't?
posted by QuietDesperation at 1:54 PM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by QuietDesperation at 1:54 PM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
I've been thinking about this all day because at first I thought this whole chicken washing thing was absurd, but then good explanations here made me examine my own roots. When I was a kid, there were two types of chicken. One was Mum's, in the inner city: go down and get us a fried chicken and chips, with a box of fags and a bottle of whiskey. You can have a coke if you like. I suffered from astma and rashes as a child during those times when I lived with my mum.
The other was gram's at the farm. Sometimes she had her own, other times she got them from an old man in the village, and I remember going there including the smell and his house and everything vividly. Obviously, those as well as those gram raised herself had to be killed and plucked. And scalded. So I guess I did grow up with "washing" the chickens. But that has nothing to do with today's produce. I remember the smell when we were plucking fowl. But I also remember her delicious roasts. And when I was at her house, I had no allergies.
I don't wash my chickens, but I do buy ecologically raised and humanely butchered chickens and they cost almost exactly ten times as much as the deep frozen ones at Aldi. So I eat them ten times as rarely.
As I do with other meats. In our family, we've decided to only eat meat that has a purpose, like cattle who help manage Natura 2000 areas in Europe, and have to be culled to not overwhelm the natural habitats they are caring for. Again, they cost a lot more than standard supermarket beef: five times as much, so we eat it at most once a week.
This is how most humans lived all over the world before industrialization. It's not a big deal. But it's more delicious and we don't have to be scared of what we eat.
I sell some of the meat I get from my neighbors, and just today one of my customers called to make sure I'll remember him in November. He said it has changed his appreciation of meat.
This is how it used to be, and how it should be.
posted by mumimor at 2:00 PM on May 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
The other was gram's at the farm. Sometimes she had her own, other times she got them from an old man in the village, and I remember going there including the smell and his house and everything vividly. Obviously, those as well as those gram raised herself had to be killed and plucked. And scalded. So I guess I did grow up with "washing" the chickens. But that has nothing to do with today's produce. I remember the smell when we were plucking fowl. But I also remember her delicious roasts. And when I was at her house, I had no allergies.
I don't wash my chickens, but I do buy ecologically raised and humanely butchered chickens and they cost almost exactly ten times as much as the deep frozen ones at Aldi. So I eat them ten times as rarely.
As I do with other meats. In our family, we've decided to only eat meat that has a purpose, like cattle who help manage Natura 2000 areas in Europe, and have to be culled to not overwhelm the natural habitats they are caring for. Again, they cost a lot more than standard supermarket beef: five times as much, so we eat it at most once a week.
This is how most humans lived all over the world before industrialization. It's not a big deal. But it's more delicious and we don't have to be scared of what we eat.
I sell some of the meat I get from my neighbors, and just today one of my customers called to make sure I'll remember him in November. He said it has changed his appreciation of meat.
This is how it used to be, and how it should be.
posted by mumimor at 2:00 PM on May 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
I thought washing chicken was slightly weird but understandable even if pointless when given poor quality meat with 'funky' stuff on the outside but washing burgers? That’s /really/ weird. How is that going to help anything?
posted by pharm at 2:25 PM on May 3, 2019
posted by pharm at 2:25 PM on May 3, 2019
Washing chicken seemed odd to me before I lived in the Caribbean. I don't do it, but washing with lime juice is typically part of any local recipe for chicken. Sure, today it may be counterproductive, but it seems pretty arrogant to be dismissive of a tradition that may have helped people stay healthy in previous generations. If you (not saying anyone specific) were transported to the Caribbean 150 years ago you would probably be dead within a few years.
posted by snofoam at 2:43 PM on May 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 2:43 PM on May 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
But I want to stand up and loudly say that more and more I can't personally justify actually buying meat just because it tastes good.
Which is great! And definitely make a lot of sense, I was responding more to the point about meat, taste and seasoning. I'm definitely not trying to say I don't understand that eating less meat is a good thing, or promoting delicious tasting vegetables and veg dishes isn't a good, because I think it is
posted by Carillon at 3:42 PM on May 3, 2019
Which is great! And definitely make a lot of sense, I was responding more to the point about meat, taste and seasoning. I'm definitely not trying to say I don't understand that eating less meat is a good thing, or promoting delicious tasting vegetables and veg dishes isn't a good, because I think it is
posted by Carillon at 3:42 PM on May 3, 2019
Metafilter: It tastes like chicken.
posted by mule98J at 4:37 PM on May 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by mule98J at 4:37 PM on May 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
but washing burgers? That’s /really/ weird. How is that going to help anything?
I have never seen someone wash a hamburger, but I've seen people wash cooked ground beef (all broken into bits and fully cooked, not in patties or raw). I'm not sure what the purpose is, maybe they are trying to wash out the fat? I have always wondered but was never in a position to ask.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:56 PM on May 3, 2019
I have never seen someone wash a hamburger, but I've seen people wash cooked ground beef (all broken into bits and fully cooked, not in patties or raw). I'm not sure what the purpose is, maybe they are trying to wash out the fat? I have always wondered but was never in a position to ask.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:56 PM on May 3, 2019
I like to brine my chicken. Dump it straight into the briny water and let it soak. Keeps the juices in when you cook it, and seasons the meat.
posted by Chuffy at 4:59 PM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Chuffy at 4:59 PM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
I've seen people wash cooked ground beef (all broken into bits and fully cooked, not in patties or raw). I'm not sure what the purpose is, maybe they are trying to wash out the fat?
There are lots of recipes (especially back-of-the-package recipes, like tacos or spaghetti sauce) that direct you to cook ground beef and then drain it to get rid of fat and extra liquid. They don't say to rinse it, but some people might just do that reflexively as a thing you do when you have stuff in a colander under a faucet.
posted by Daily Alice at 5:12 PM on May 3, 2019
There are lots of recipes (especially back-of-the-package recipes, like tacos or spaghetti sauce) that direct you to cook ground beef and then drain it to get rid of fat and extra liquid. They don't say to rinse it, but some people might just do that reflexively as a thing you do when you have stuff in a colander under a faucet.
posted by Daily Alice at 5:12 PM on May 3, 2019
loquacious: "I think it's super weird that an unseasoned fast food burger patty might be more appetizing or flavorful than a good potato or even more flavorful vegetables, raw or cooked."
Counterpoint: "I think it's super weird that an unseasoned high quality steak might be less appetizing or flavorful than a wilted eggplant or even less flavorful vegetables, raw or cooked."
If the whole argument is about whether A or B are better without seasoning to modify their flavors, don't add modifiers like "fast food" or "good" or "more flavorful" to prime your argument.
I mean, even going back to the start of this discussion, it began with begging the question, that meat needs "heavy seasoning." I don't think most people agree. It needs a light sprinkle of salt; that's it. The same as most vegetables.
Anyway, going beyond that, add me to the train of people that think that a good, unseasoned roast chicken tastes better than a good, unseasoned baked potato, or that an unseasoned boiled shrimp tastes better than an unseasoned grilled eggplant.
I enjoy coffee. I drink it with milk. Perhaps your position is that I don't really enjoy coffee, because I add milk, but I make a cup of coffee every morning, and add milk, and enjoy drinking it, so it sure seems to me that I enjoy coffee.
posted by Bugbread at 5:16 PM on May 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
Counterpoint: "I think it's super weird that an unseasoned high quality steak might be less appetizing or flavorful than a wilted eggplant or even less flavorful vegetables, raw or cooked."
If the whole argument is about whether A or B are better without seasoning to modify their flavors, don't add modifiers like "fast food" or "good" or "more flavorful" to prime your argument.
I mean, even going back to the start of this discussion, it began with begging the question, that meat needs "heavy seasoning." I don't think most people agree. It needs a light sprinkle of salt; that's it. The same as most vegetables.
Anyway, going beyond that, add me to the train of people that think that a good, unseasoned roast chicken tastes better than a good, unseasoned baked potato, or that an unseasoned boiled shrimp tastes better than an unseasoned grilled eggplant.
I enjoy coffee. I drink it with milk. Perhaps your position is that I don't really enjoy coffee, because I add milk, but I make a cup of coffee every morning, and add milk, and enjoy drinking it, so it sure seems to me that I enjoy coffee.
posted by Bugbread at 5:16 PM on May 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
Dip Flash: "I've seen people wash cooked ground beef (all broken into bits and fully cooked, not in patties or raw). I'm not sure what the purpose is, maybe they are trying to wash out the fat?"
My wife does this with dishes involving crumbled ground beef (so not meatballs or hamburgers), and that's precisely why. It's a health/calorie thing.
posted by Bugbread at 5:18 PM on May 3, 2019
My wife does this with dishes involving crumbled ground beef (so not meatballs or hamburgers), and that's precisely why. It's a health/calorie thing.
posted by Bugbread at 5:18 PM on May 3, 2019
Er, sorry to do the three-comments-in-a-row thing, but one other thing just occurred to me:
I like cumin. A lot. But I would never eat it by itself. You're going to have a hard time convincing me that I don't really find cumin delicious because I always have to have it with something else.
Finding something delicious means "really, really enjoying its flavor". It doesn't mean "really, really enjoying its flavor on its own" or "really, really enjoying its flavor during the summer" or "really, really enjoying its flavor on the moon" or "really, really enjoying its flavor in a house, with a mouse, in a box, or with a fox" or any other additional qualifiers.
posted by Bugbread at 5:24 PM on May 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
I like cumin. A lot. But I would never eat it by itself. You're going to have a hard time convincing me that I don't really find cumin delicious because I always have to have it with something else.
Finding something delicious means "really, really enjoying its flavor". It doesn't mean "really, really enjoying its flavor on its own" or "really, really enjoying its flavor during the summer" or "really, really enjoying its flavor on the moon" or "really, really enjoying its flavor in a house, with a mouse, in a box, or with a fox" or any other additional qualifiers.
posted by Bugbread at 5:24 PM on May 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
YOU CANNOT COOK AWAY BACTERIA!!!
I can't believe no-one has mentioned this yet.
Sepsis/ food poisoning is mediated by conserved molecular structures in potentially dangerous microbes that our innate immune system has evolved to recognize. Lipopolysaccharide and peptidoglycan are two major molecules that are present in gram negaitve and gram positive bacteria, respectively, and are not broken down at the temperatures involved in cooking. You literally have to carbonize them to make it safe.
Also, American slaughterhouse/ abbatoir practices are terrible because of the bottom line and regulations and inspections lobbied into weakness. Upton Sinclair's 'The Jungle' was an attempt to point out the abysmal working conditions at slaughterhouses, but made headlines because people didn't want to eat tuberculosis-infected meat, and had a role in the formation of the US FDA.
posted by porpoise at 6:31 PM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
I can't believe no-one has mentioned this yet.
Sepsis/ food poisoning is mediated by conserved molecular structures in potentially dangerous microbes that our innate immune system has evolved to recognize. Lipopolysaccharide and peptidoglycan are two major molecules that are present in gram negaitve and gram positive bacteria, respectively, and are not broken down at the temperatures involved in cooking. You literally have to carbonize them to make it safe.
Also, American slaughterhouse/ abbatoir practices are terrible because of the bottom line and regulations and inspections lobbied into weakness. Upton Sinclair's 'The Jungle' was an attempt to point out the abysmal working conditions at slaughterhouses, but made headlines because people didn't want to eat tuberculosis-infected meat, and had a role in the formation of the US FDA.
posted by porpoise at 6:31 PM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
I wash all of my produce (which is more likely to cause illness than properly butchered meats) and wash my meats when appropriate. In Canada, I'm somewhat confident that pesticide application is done appropriately and at the correct time pre-harvest.
But I keep my sink sparkingly clean; I bleach it out routinely.
I hate hate hate the fake grainy sparkly black granite laminate countertops at my current rental because they are the absolute worst for visual inspection of cleanliness/ dryness.
Also, (alkyl dimethyl benzyl ammonium chloride based [adbac]) "disinfectant wipes" are absolute garbage. Read their claims closely; disinfection is impossible in real-world situations. adbac is a fine disinfection material, but it's not going to stay on the surface long enough to do the job it's advertised to do via a wipe. If you're mopping/ spraying down a production room and letting it air dry - it can be very effective.
Disinfectant wipes are super duper convenient though, and I use them regularly - but I don't take their claims seriously. The material Lysol uses for their wipes are terrible; Clorox is better (but still not great) at picking up dust/ fibres. Similarly Pampers seem to use less hydrophilic fibres than Huggies (which are a much better wipe).
Bleach is everyone's friend; 1:9 (or 10) bleach:water made fresh is fantastic for disinfection. Wipe over with a clean moist (paper preferable, but cloth is just fine as long as its laundered at appropriate intervals) towel to remove residue. Sodium hypochlorite, especially at low concentrations, breaks down into harmless products quite quickly. Some people will say 1:10 is overkill and can go more dilute, but 1:10 is faster at killing. A 1:10 solution is only good for a few days. Bleach is cheap, make it up fresh.
There are other detergents and stuff in commercial bleach, and the physical wiping will remove the dead bacteria and their endotoxins.
The thing with food poisoning is that live bacteria get onto a moist surface (meat), multiply rapidly, and Even When Dead from cooking, their corpses cause the immune system to over-react.
Worst case scenario is that there are live bacteria on meat, the meat isn't cooked to a sufficient temperature, and the temperature of the meat stays at a level where the bacteria grow even faster than normal and make even more endotoxin.
posted by porpoise at 6:52 PM on May 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
But I keep my sink sparkingly clean; I bleach it out routinely.
I hate hate hate the fake grainy sparkly black granite laminate countertops at my current rental because they are the absolute worst for visual inspection of cleanliness/ dryness.
Also, (alkyl dimethyl benzyl ammonium chloride based [adbac]) "disinfectant wipes" are absolute garbage. Read their claims closely; disinfection is impossible in real-world situations. adbac is a fine disinfection material, but it's not going to stay on the surface long enough to do the job it's advertised to do via a wipe. If you're mopping/ spraying down a production room and letting it air dry - it can be very effective.
Disinfectant wipes are super duper convenient though, and I use them regularly - but I don't take their claims seriously. The material Lysol uses for their wipes are terrible; Clorox is better (but still not great) at picking up dust/ fibres. Similarly Pampers seem to use less hydrophilic fibres than Huggies (which are a much better wipe).
Bleach is everyone's friend; 1:9 (or 10) bleach:water made fresh is fantastic for disinfection. Wipe over with a clean moist (paper preferable, but cloth is just fine as long as its laundered at appropriate intervals) towel to remove residue. Sodium hypochlorite, especially at low concentrations, breaks down into harmless products quite quickly. Some people will say 1:10 is overkill and can go more dilute, but 1:10 is faster at killing. A 1:10 solution is only good for a few days. Bleach is cheap, make it up fresh.
There are other detergents and stuff in commercial bleach, and the physical wiping will remove the dead bacteria and their endotoxins.
The thing with food poisoning is that live bacteria get onto a moist surface (meat), multiply rapidly, and Even When Dead from cooking, their corpses cause the immune system to over-react.
Worst case scenario is that there are live bacteria on meat, the meat isn't cooked to a sufficient temperature, and the temperature of the meat stays at a level where the bacteria grow even faster than normal and make even more endotoxin.
posted by porpoise at 6:52 PM on May 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
I find this meat quality/seasoning correlation a bit dubious. Lightly seasoned, fast cooking is all fine and good when you're eating a 5 week old chicken or 18 month old beef. But that doesn't really hold true with an old rooster or goat. And those older animals aren't exactly "lower quality", though they are tougher. But they have a lot more flavor, and those flavors can stand up to stronger seasonings and still shine. You cook them differently, with different recipes, to make the best meal.
Just last week I ate a jackrabbit. Probably very few of you have eaten jackrabbit, since you pretty much have to go out an catch one yourself. They're totally different from domestic rabbits. Imagine taking the darkest, toughest leg meat off an old rooster, and making the entire rabbit out of that. That's a jackrabbit.
I braised my jackrabbit for 2.5 hrs in a strong, spicy curry. It was pretty amazing. The strong spices perfectly complemented the dark hare meat. The seasoning didn't hide the gamey flavors (it's probably not possible to hide jackrabbit). It was a rich, wild-tasting dish, and I loved it.
This weekend I'm heading out to get another jackrabbit so I can try making Hank Shaw's Sardinian Hare Stew. I'm not doing it because I especially like tramping through tick-infested marshland (although it has its charms). And I'm certainly not doing it because I enjoy trying to butcher game on some park bench without running water. It's 100% for the meat. And even though that meat is going to be stewed with a ton of garlic, capers, saffron, and vinegar, the meat will still be the star of the show. Garlic, capers, saffron, and vinegar alone just wouldn't be the same.
posted by ryanrs at 1:17 AM on May 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
Just last week I ate a jackrabbit. Probably very few of you have eaten jackrabbit, since you pretty much have to go out an catch one yourself. They're totally different from domestic rabbits. Imagine taking the darkest, toughest leg meat off an old rooster, and making the entire rabbit out of that. That's a jackrabbit.
I braised my jackrabbit for 2.5 hrs in a strong, spicy curry. It was pretty amazing. The strong spices perfectly complemented the dark hare meat. The seasoning didn't hide the gamey flavors (it's probably not possible to hide jackrabbit). It was a rich, wild-tasting dish, and I loved it.
This weekend I'm heading out to get another jackrabbit so I can try making Hank Shaw's Sardinian Hare Stew. I'm not doing it because I especially like tramping through tick-infested marshland (although it has its charms). And I'm certainly not doing it because I enjoy trying to butcher game on some park bench without running water. It's 100% for the meat. And even though that meat is going to be stewed with a ton of garlic, capers, saffron, and vinegar, the meat will still be the star of the show. Garlic, capers, saffron, and vinegar alone just wouldn't be the same.
posted by ryanrs at 1:17 AM on May 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
So, Singaporean here. My mom washes chicken. But she also washes all meat, even minced meat (o_O). For her it's largely for hygeine reasons. My wife though, never washes meat. I'm now in the no-washing camp, unless the pieces of chicken I get look particularly gunky, and even then the purpose is not to remove germs or whatever but to just remove anything that might not taste good.
Most of the time we get chicken from the supermarkets though, where they are already portioned and cleaned; but even the pieces we get from the wet markets look pretty clean to me too. I do however suspect that many Singaporeans do wash their meat.
(Actually a standard practice among Chinese when cooking pork is to quickly blanch it in boiling water, to get rid of blood and gunk. I guess that probably counts as washing too. I generally don't bother.)
posted by destrius at 3:59 AM on May 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
Most of the time we get chicken from the supermarkets though, where they are already portioned and cleaned; but even the pieces we get from the wet markets look pretty clean to me too. I do however suspect that many Singaporeans do wash their meat.
(Actually a standard practice among Chinese when cooking pork is to quickly blanch it in boiling water, to get rid of blood and gunk. I guess that probably counts as washing too. I generally don't bother.)
posted by destrius at 3:59 AM on May 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
YOU CANNOT COOK AWAY BACTERIA!!!
I can't believe no-one has mentioned this yet.
Perhaps that is because you can.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:13 AM on May 4, 2019 [3 favorites]
I can't believe no-one has mentioned this yet.
Perhaps that is because you can.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:13 AM on May 4, 2019 [3 favorites]
If you (not saying anyone specific) were transported to the Caribbean 150 years ago you would probably be dead within a few years.Even a really hardy young person would probably have been dead for a hundred years by now.
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 11:02 AM on May 4, 2019 [6 favorites]
It really seems like what's happening here is that people have different conceptions of "dirty," and what makes something "dirt" and requiring washing.
Is it germs? Is it contact or potential with some sort of refuse (chicken feces, feathers, soil)? Is it the presence of unpleasant smells or textures ("chicken slime")? People act as if these are all coterminous, and they're very much not (see, e.g., lactobacilli, or, in contrasy, purified arsenic, or maybe sterilized potting soil. Or just a big tub of aspic on fried chicken.)
And then include the fact that people naturally get angry when other people call their food or their food preparation"dirty" (which, I mean, is a very easy and common way to other a group of people), and suddenly no one really give a shit about why they're disagreeing; you just called my mother filthy.
posted by pykrete jungle at 1:14 PM on May 4, 2019 [6 favorites]
Is it germs? Is it contact or potential with some sort of refuse (chicken feces, feathers, soil)? Is it the presence of unpleasant smells or textures ("chicken slime")? People act as if these are all coterminous, and they're very much not (see, e.g., lactobacilli, or, in contrasy, purified arsenic, or maybe sterilized potting soil. Or just a big tub of aspic on fried chicken.)
And then include the fact that people naturally get angry when other people call their food or their food preparation"dirty" (which, I mean, is a very easy and common way to other a group of people), and suddenly no one really give a shit about why they're disagreeing; you just called my mother filthy.
posted by pykrete jungle at 1:14 PM on May 4, 2019 [6 favorites]
I completely forgot to say this earlier, but one vital thing to remember when considering recommendations from the CDC is that they are a public health organization and not personal health organization. They are not saying people are wrong or bad to wash chicken, they are saying, that as a general rule, going by averages, it is probably more likely to cause more illness than prevent it across the entire nation over time, which could represent a tiny number of cases as well.
The CDC exists to tell us what is generally true about disease science in a population, not provide personal health advice. It is true that washing most chicken sold in stores in the US is not required from a public health perspective, and it is also true that there is lots of chicken you can buy that would benefit from a rinse. These are not mutually exclusive things, and I'm sure the CDC would agree.
The last thing I don't think I've seen mentioned, I'm guessing that from a public health perspective, this is a way larger issue in the food service industry, where kitchens see a lot more use for longer periods of time. It is probably worth it to tell everyone that you don't need to wash chicken if it keeps the Chef Joe's of the world from instinctively hosing down the already clean chicken breasts off next to where Chef Sharon is slicing the carrots or whatever. Do as you please (within reason) in a home kitchen, but businesses should be held to standards based in research and science.
posted by neonrev at 12:22 AM on May 5, 2019 [5 favorites]
The CDC exists to tell us what is generally true about disease science in a population, not provide personal health advice. It is true that washing most chicken sold in stores in the US is not required from a public health perspective, and it is also true that there is lots of chicken you can buy that would benefit from a rinse. These are not mutually exclusive things, and I'm sure the CDC would agree.
The last thing I don't think I've seen mentioned, I'm guessing that from a public health perspective, this is a way larger issue in the food service industry, where kitchens see a lot more use for longer periods of time. It is probably worth it to tell everyone that you don't need to wash chicken if it keeps the Chef Joe's of the world from instinctively hosing down the already clean chicken breasts off next to where Chef Sharon is slicing the carrots or whatever. Do as you please (within reason) in a home kitchen, but businesses should be held to standards based in research and science.
posted by neonrev at 12:22 AM on May 5, 2019 [5 favorites]
Found that Julia Childs & Jacques Pepin clip offalark mentioned here. "I think in France they're not as worried about things as we are." "Well, I live in Connecticut..."
posted by lucidium at 6:30 AM on May 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by lucidium at 6:30 AM on May 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
so it's always felt a bit like, I don't know, advice to not throw raw beef at the television.
Whoa, hold on. Now I can't throw raw beef at the TV? What kind of mad police state has society become?!!
posted by grubi at 7:01 AM on May 6, 2019 [3 favorites]
Whoa, hold on. Now I can't throw raw beef at the TV? What kind of mad police state has society become?!!
posted by grubi at 7:01 AM on May 6, 2019 [3 favorites]
Washing before breading?? That's not helpful. That's what the egg is for.
Hear, hear.
posted by grubi at 7:07 AM on May 6, 2019
Hear, hear.
posted by grubi at 7:07 AM on May 6, 2019
Instead of recommending we not wash raw chicken for fear of spreading salmonella and e.coli, what if the US had cleaner farms and chicken that wasn't full of diseases. I would ordinarily post some sort of If only the Federal Government had some sort of Department in charge of Agriculture or Health but it's too tragic that the US is a wholly owned subsidiary of Bigevil Hyperprofit Monopolord Megacorp™.
posted by theora55 at 7:37 AM on May 6, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 7:37 AM on May 6, 2019 [2 favorites]
Countdown until we see "Pre-Washed" chicken appear in grocery stores ...
posted by Kabanos at 1:45 PM on May 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Kabanos at 1:45 PM on May 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
until we see "Pre-Washed" chicken appear
It's called air chilled chicken [bloomberg]
Also, chicken "slime" should be serous membrane that helps organs and muscle bundles be able to rub past each other, in life.
One of the points of blanching/ pre-boiling chicken is to denature the globular proteins secreted by these membranes quickly so you can rinse them away instead of having to skim them away during soup-making. Skim will still form (a lot of soluble proteins are released from marrow-rich bones), though.
If it's not serous membrane and your chicken is slimey, that's probably a microbial biofilm and it should stink (fresh chicken has a musky stink, but it's not the stink of a biofilm on a carcass) - and that is seriously bad ju ju.
posted by porpoise at 9:20 PM on May 6, 2019
It's called air chilled chicken [bloomberg]
Also, chicken "slime" should be serous membrane that helps organs and muscle bundles be able to rub past each other, in life.
One of the points of blanching/ pre-boiling chicken is to denature the globular proteins secreted by these membranes quickly so you can rinse them away instead of having to skim them away during soup-making. Skim will still form (a lot of soluble proteins are released from marrow-rich bones), though.
If it's not serous membrane and your chicken is slimey, that's probably a microbial biofilm and it should stink (fresh chicken has a musky stink, but it's not the stink of a biofilm on a carcass) - and that is seriously bad ju ju.
posted by porpoise at 9:20 PM on May 6, 2019
If you butcher chickens, you generally need a pot of boiling water right there to dunk them in, to make it easier to pluck 'em.
Does this count as washing?
what if the US had cleaner farms and chicken that wasn't full of diseases.
Definitely, but . . . you still wouldn't need to wash your meat.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:33 AM on May 7, 2019 [1 favorite]
Does this count as washing?
what if the US had cleaner farms and chicken that wasn't full of diseases.
Definitely, but . . . you still wouldn't need to wash your meat.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:33 AM on May 7, 2019 [1 favorite]
Can I rinse off eggs, or would that count as washing my chickens before they hatch?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:36 AM on May 7, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:36 AM on May 7, 2019 [5 favorites]
Commercial chicken eggs in the USA are typically pre-washed [npr] because the side effect of cost-cutting is tons and tons of Salmonella.
Why other jurisdictions don't wash? Regulations. Animal welfare.
posted by porpoise at 8:55 PM on May 8, 2019 [1 favorite]
Why other jurisdictions don't wash? Regulations. Animal welfare.
posted by porpoise at 8:55 PM on May 8, 2019 [1 favorite]
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