Israel Folau, Employer's Rights, Homophobic Speech
June 26, 2019 9:40 PM Subscribe
‘These are the culture wars, white society bickers over the bodies of PoC. Shelton makes a martyr out of Folau knowing he will never suffer the same repercussions despite holding the same views & being in a far more powerful position to influence policy & society.’
- Ruby Hamad, "Folau’s Fall Is A Story Of Whiteness" for Meanjin
"When Rugby Australia said it was firing Israel Folau last Thursday, much to my surprise, my battered and bruised gay-being didn’t leap for joy like I thought it would. As one of his most vocal critics, I had expected to feel relief, even a little bit of spiteful satisfaction, that finally he had gotten his just desserts.
But instead, I was overtaken by a type of numbness that I put down to age and a little bit more life experience — knowing that whenever someone loses their job, the ones around them suffer. And that Folau’s family, friends and immediate community are also affected."
- Seuta’afili Dr Patrick Thomsen, "Israel Folau’s demise is also partially ours" for E-Tangata
"It seems reasonable that employers be free to take steps to protect themselves from the kind of strategic risk caused by well-intentioned, loose cannons like the hypothetical brand ambassador sketched above.
This should allow employers to put in place measures designed to protect their interests — and then ask their employees to act accordingly"
- Simon Longfellow, "The Israel Folau crowdfunding saga is not about freedom of religion" for the ABC.
"This week, some Australian Christians rallied behind Folau's legal battle against Rugby Australia, stepping in when the rugby star's GoFundMe campaign was shut down. On its first day, the new campaign raised more than $1 million in donations — and counting.
Some Christian leaders have urged the newly re-elected Coalition Government to make religious freedom protections a priority in the wake of Folau's sacking by Rugby Australia.
There's even been talk among some conservative Coalition MPs of pushing for a "Folau Law", or a new statute that would exempt religious beliefs from employment contracts.
- Geoff Thompson, "Israel Folau and his crowdfunding campaign is dividing opinion among Christians" for the ABC.
“To those who have criticised me, I bear no ill will towards you. You have every right to express your own beliefs and opinions. To the thousands of you who donated to my GoFundMe campaign, I am forever grateful.”
...
The ACL’s fundraising effort began on Tuesday, replacing the rugby star’s appeal on GoFundMe that was taken down by the crowdfunding platform for breaching its terms of service.
Lisa Martin, "Israel Folau donations soar past $2m – as Australian Christian Lobby cashes in" for Guardian Australia
"When Rugby Australia said it was firing Israel Folau last Thursday, much to my surprise, my battered and bruised gay-being didn’t leap for joy like I thought it would. As one of his most vocal critics, I had expected to feel relief, even a little bit of spiteful satisfaction, that finally he had gotten his just desserts.
But instead, I was overtaken by a type of numbness that I put down to age and a little bit more life experience — knowing that whenever someone loses their job, the ones around them suffer. And that Folau’s family, friends and immediate community are also affected."
- Seuta’afili Dr Patrick Thomsen, "Israel Folau’s demise is also partially ours" for E-Tangata
"It seems reasonable that employers be free to take steps to protect themselves from the kind of strategic risk caused by well-intentioned, loose cannons like the hypothetical brand ambassador sketched above.
This should allow employers to put in place measures designed to protect their interests — and then ask their employees to act accordingly"
- Simon Longfellow, "The Israel Folau crowdfunding saga is not about freedom of religion" for the ABC.
"This week, some Australian Christians rallied behind Folau's legal battle against Rugby Australia, stepping in when the rugby star's GoFundMe campaign was shut down. On its first day, the new campaign raised more than $1 million in donations — and counting.
Some Christian leaders have urged the newly re-elected Coalition Government to make religious freedom protections a priority in the wake of Folau's sacking by Rugby Australia.
There's even been talk among some conservative Coalition MPs of pushing for a "Folau Law", or a new statute that would exempt religious beliefs from employment contracts.
- Geoff Thompson, "Israel Folau and his crowdfunding campaign is dividing opinion among Christians" for the ABC.
“To those who have criticised me, I bear no ill will towards you. You have every right to express your own beliefs and opinions. To the thousands of you who donated to my GoFundMe campaign, I am forever grateful.”
...
The ACL’s fundraising effort began on Tuesday, replacing the rugby star’s appeal on GoFundMe that was taken down by the crowdfunding platform for breaching its terms of service.
Lisa Martin, "Israel Folau donations soar past $2m – as Australian Christian Lobby cashes in" for Guardian Australia
Can we bring to the fore the range of Pasifika speakers here?
Tuiloma Lina Samu - Dear Israel Folau – your unchristian comments hurt young, vulnerable Pasifika
Ok, fine, there's no range. There's just plenty of Pasifika and Christian people pretty pissed off annoyed with guy.
posted by happyinmotion at 11:39 PM on June 26, 2019 [19 favorites]
Tuiloma Lina Samu - Dear Israel Folau – your unchristian comments hurt young, vulnerable Pasifika
I believe as do many of the Pacific LGBTQI+ Rainbow community that Jesus Christ is our God and Redeemer. The Jesus Christ that I know and believe in is one of unconditional love, compassion, non-judgement and service to everyone. My Christian faith is crucial to my wellbeing, so too are the legacy and beliefs left by our ancestors.Seuta’afili Dr. Patrick Thomsen - Goodbye Israel Folau – I’m sad it had to end this way
When Folau decided to, out of nowhere, post that everyone is going to hell, especially the homosexuals, I didn’t see anything ‘Pacific’ about what he was doing or saying. Homophobia is not a Pacific concept, nor in our cultures a legitimate framework to other and marginalize people. Having grown up in a very Sāmoan household, which also happens to be a very Catholic one too, I have long known that our people at the very worst are indifferent to the gays; at the very best, inclusive enough to allow fa’afafine to dress as their authentic selves and deliver sermons at church.Tj Perenara - "To anyone, young Māori/Pasifika people especially, who may be struggling with their identity - please know that it is ok to be you. You are perfect as you are. Do not let these comments keep you from being yourself. Polynesia has been sexually diverse since forever."
Ok, fine, there's no range. There's just plenty of Pasifika and Christian people pretty pissed off annoyed with guy.
posted by happyinmotion at 11:39 PM on June 26, 2019 [19 favorites]
The issue raised in the article is not whether Folau should be silenced, but how progressive wokeness is unevenly applied by powerful institutions to target minorities and the vulnerable.
posted by um at 11:47 PM on June 26, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by um at 11:47 PM on June 26, 2019 [7 favorites]
The Meanjin article that is.
posted by um at 11:48 PM on June 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by um at 11:48 PM on June 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
goddammit: powerful white institutions I am not doing well today
posted by um at 12:12 AM on June 27, 2019
posted by um at 12:12 AM on June 27, 2019
Australia is a much more conservative country than people often think, and the last few federal elections bore that out. It's easy to live in an inner-urban bubble of university-educated people who subscribe to Crikey and get their news from the Guardian, though in the vast, sprawling suburbs beyond that, I suspect that Folau has a lot more support, from people who don't specifically share his religious views but who see him as a “fair dinkum bloke”, in the way they wouldn't see someone with colourful hair who uses words like “intersectionality”.
He'll probably have a long and very profitable career ahead of him, not kicking a ball (a career with an intrinsically short lifespan) but as a TV/newspaper talking head and/or conservative politician, being simultaneously a Sayer Of What Everybody's Really Thinking and Living Proof That We're Not Racist And You're The Racist For Calling Us Racists.
posted by acb at 2:15 AM on June 27, 2019 [8 favorites]
He'll probably have a long and very profitable career ahead of him, not kicking a ball (a career with an intrinsically short lifespan) but as a TV/newspaper talking head and/or conservative politician, being simultaneously a Sayer Of What Everybody's Really Thinking and Living Proof That We're Not Racist And You're The Racist For Calling Us Racists.
posted by acb at 2:15 AM on June 27, 2019 [8 favorites]
As a rugby fan I am really frustrated by this.
Rugby Australia has rules and we all know them. Folau signed a contract with the Wallabies and subsequently violated it repeatedly and often publicly. He should have fired sooner. If any of us proles had violated our employment contracts as frequently and publicly as he has we would have been dismissed long ago. Then this man, who has made millions, turns to a crowd sourcing platform so that suckers and bigots can fund his further bigotry.
If this man wants to go on some bigotry crusade he needs to do so without dragging Rugby into it. He shouldn't be able or allowed to use Rugby as platform or a megaphone for any of this.
Also, I really don't see this as being mostly about Folau's race. If, for example an average player had gone on some sort of bigoted rant about pretty much anything Rugby Australia and his team would have long since nuked him from orbit and we all would have already forgotten his name. The real issue here is that Folau is very good at playing rugby and knows damn well that being very good at rugby earns him a platform to say repugnant things and an opportunity to get away with it.
posted by The Correspondent on the Continent at 3:07 AM on June 27, 2019 [7 favorites]
Rugby Australia has rules and we all know them. Folau signed a contract with the Wallabies and subsequently violated it repeatedly and often publicly. He should have fired sooner. If any of us proles had violated our employment contracts as frequently and publicly as he has we would have been dismissed long ago. Then this man, who has made millions, turns to a crowd sourcing platform so that suckers and bigots can fund his further bigotry.
If this man wants to go on some bigotry crusade he needs to do so without dragging Rugby into it. He shouldn't be able or allowed to use Rugby as platform or a megaphone for any of this.
Also, I really don't see this as being mostly about Folau's race. If, for example an average player had gone on some sort of bigoted rant about pretty much anything Rugby Australia and his team would have long since nuked him from orbit and we all would have already forgotten his name. The real issue here is that Folau is very good at playing rugby and knows damn well that being very good at rugby earns him a platform to say repugnant things and an opportunity to get away with it.
posted by The Correspondent on the Continent at 3:07 AM on June 27, 2019 [7 favorites]
This is the post on Apr 10 that got him fired. It reads:
Warning drunks, homosexuals, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists, idolaters, Hell awaits you. Repent! Only Jesus saves.
Those that are living in Sin will end up in Hell unless you repent. Jesus Christ loves you and is giving you time to turn away from your sin and come to him.
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these, adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21 KJV
To me it seems a straightforward case where an employer tells a worker to do something / not do something, they refuse, and they get fired, and it takes a judge / lawyers to interpret employment law to see whether they have a case for unlawful termination. It's not something any of us can really have an informed opinion on without the legal training and having the facts of the case.
According to that tweet 100% of us are condemned to hell anyway, which, is pretty much Christian doctrine.
posted by xdvesper at 3:43 AM on June 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
Warning drunks, homosexuals, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists, idolaters, Hell awaits you. Repent! Only Jesus saves.
Those that are living in Sin will end up in Hell unless you repent. Jesus Christ loves you and is giving you time to turn away from your sin and come to him.
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these, adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21 KJV
To me it seems a straightforward case where an employer tells a worker to do something / not do something, they refuse, and they get fired, and it takes a judge / lawyers to interpret employment law to see whether they have a case for unlawful termination. It's not something any of us can really have an informed opinion on without the legal training and having the facts of the case.
According to that tweet 100% of us are condemned to hell anyway, which, is pretty much Christian doctrine.
posted by xdvesper at 3:43 AM on June 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
According to that tweet 100% of us are condemned to hell anyway, which, is pretty much Christian doctrine.
Eh, not really. I mean, if you're very generous, then the list quoted from the bible can maybe encompass many if not most people. But the bits that Folau chose to emphasise and rephrase in his own statement, that's a much more exclusive list. He doesn't place homosexuality alongside revelling - he places it alongside "drunks... adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists, idolaters“.
posted by Dysk at 3:57 AM on June 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
Eh, not really. I mean, if you're very generous, then the list quoted from the bible can maybe encompass many if not most people. But the bits that Folau chose to emphasise and rephrase in his own statement, that's a much more exclusive list. He doesn't place homosexuality alongside revelling - he places it alongside "drunks... adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists, idolaters“.
posted by Dysk at 3:57 AM on June 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
100% of us are condemned to hell anyway, which, is pretty much Christian doctrine.
Also, this isn't remotely true. I'm sure you can find niche sects where this is the belief, but one of the central theses across mainstream Christianity is that God forgives.
posted by Dysk at 3:59 AM on June 27, 2019 [8 favorites]
Also, this isn't remotely true. I'm sure you can find niche sects where this is the belief, but one of the central theses across mainstream Christianity is that God forgives.
posted by Dysk at 3:59 AM on June 27, 2019 [8 favorites]
I wish the many people who contributed to a multi-millionaire's self inflicted legal costs would be just as ready to help other people who need help paying their bills.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:24 AM on June 27, 2019 [13 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:24 AM on June 27, 2019 [13 favorites]
100% of us are condemned to hell anyway, which, is pretty much Christian doctrine.
Not for me, or for my church, or most Australian Christians I know. This might be different in America, though.
And yet, Australian Christian Lobby managing director Martyn Iles used this as a gotcha in the media.
“Izzy wasn’t saying gays are going to hell, he was saying everyone, myself included, is going to hell!”
My pastor has a hard time understanding why I’m not always upfront about my faith. It’s for reasons like this: the Australian (so-called) Christian Lobby being bigoted dickheads in the name of Love.
posted by third word on a random page at 4:52 AM on June 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
Not for me, or for my church, or most Australian Christians I know. This might be different in America, though.
And yet, Australian Christian Lobby managing director Martyn Iles used this as a gotcha in the media.
“Izzy wasn’t saying gays are going to hell, he was saying everyone, myself included, is going to hell!”
My pastor has a hard time understanding why I’m not always upfront about my faith. It’s for reasons like this: the Australian (so-called) Christian Lobby being bigoted dickheads in the name of Love.
posted by third word on a random page at 4:52 AM on June 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
While of course I believe Israel Folau is in the wrong, and I don't want to hear more from him if it's the same as we've been hearing
I'm not super comfortable with us celebrating the use of contract law to fire a worker for making their heartfelt beliefs public.
I'm no free speech absolutist, but I also don't believe Rugby Australia is truly interested in doing what's right, I think they're covering their own asses and protecting profits.
I find Ruby Hamad often has really worthwhile takes on Australian politics of a sort that are far less rarely encountered, she's never afraid to grapple with the way colonisation and white supremacy are inextricably woven into everything that takes place here.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 5:24 AM on June 27, 2019 [2 favorites]
I'm not super comfortable with us celebrating the use of contract law to fire a worker for making their heartfelt beliefs public.
I'm no free speech absolutist, but I also don't believe Rugby Australia is truly interested in doing what's right, I think they're covering their own asses and protecting profits.
I find Ruby Hamad often has really worthwhile takes on Australian politics of a sort that are far less rarely encountered, she's never afraid to grapple with the way colonisation and white supremacy are inextricably woven into everything that takes place here.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 5:24 AM on June 27, 2019 [2 favorites]
There are plenty of things other than bigotry that can be very unprofitable.
& if we wait until we're powerful to have ideals, I hope we never gain power.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 6:04 AM on June 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
& if we wait until we're powerful to have ideals, I hope we never gain power.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 6:04 AM on June 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
I'm no free speech absolutist, but I also don't believe Rugby Australia is truly interested in doing what's right, I think they're covering their own asses and protecting profits.
Of course they are. Dickhead spouted off, in breach of his contract (and, more nebulously, in breach of the idea that the Wallabies represent Australia), was told to knock it off. He then went and ignored that and did it all again. It's not about free speech. There's no censorship here. Christ knows the Prime God-botherer would back him. This is a commercial issue, and suggestions that it is otherwise are culture-war nonsense.
That said: the whole crowdfunding bit is just a scam. Bloke's got how many houses?
not whether Folau should be silenced
No-one's silencing him. RA are saying that a fuckwit like this cannot represent Australian rugby, and they're entirely within their rights to do so.
Fuck that bigoted toerag.
posted by pompomtom at 6:07 AM on June 27, 2019 [13 favorites]
Of course they are. Dickhead spouted off, in breach of his contract (and, more nebulously, in breach of the idea that the Wallabies represent Australia), was told to knock it off. He then went and ignored that and did it all again. It's not about free speech. There's no censorship here. Christ knows the Prime God-botherer would back him. This is a commercial issue, and suggestions that it is otherwise are culture-war nonsense.
That said: the whole crowdfunding bit is just a scam. Bloke's got how many houses?
not whether Folau should be silenced
No-one's silencing him. RA are saying that a fuckwit like this cannot represent Australian rugby, and they're entirely within their rights to do so.
Fuck that bigoted toerag.
posted by pompomtom at 6:07 AM on June 27, 2019 [13 favorites]
There are consequences. His current nonsense is going down the usual right wing path of "I want to say what I want and NOT have any consequences", which hasn't applied to anyone since they learned to speak. The same media people supporting him are the same low-lives who drove Yassmin Abdel-Magied out of the country for having the audacity to mention our glorious war dead and our current human rights violations regarding refugees in the same tweet. They are not interested in free speech, they are interested in being able to say what they want, about who they want, whenever they want, and to have no repercussions WHILE they remain the arbiters of what can be said.
This country makes me so sad these days.
posted by nfalkner at 6:25 AM on June 27, 2019 [12 favorites]
This country makes me so sad these days.
posted by nfalkner at 6:25 AM on June 27, 2019 [12 favorites]
I'm not super comfortable with us celebrating the use of contract law to fire a worker for making their heartfelt beliefs public.
This is yet another example of why the euphemistic language used around speech is harmful and distorts the discussion. Folau's bigotry is reduced to "heartfelt beliefs", and thus the argument is set that holding a bigot accountable for their hate is somehow wrong. Folau was not fired for "making their heartfelt beliefs public", he was fired for openly making homophobic remarks.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:44 AM on June 27, 2019 [20 favorites]
This is yet another example of why the euphemistic language used around speech is harmful and distorts the discussion. Folau's bigotry is reduced to "heartfelt beliefs", and thus the argument is set that holding a bigot accountable for their hate is somehow wrong. Folau was not fired for "making their heartfelt beliefs public", he was fired for openly making homophobic remarks.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:44 AM on June 27, 2019 [20 favorites]
Folau was not fired for "making their heartfelt beliefs public", he was fired for openly making homophobic remarks.
What I was hoping to convey with that is not that I think homophobic remarks are just heartfelt beliefs, but that the heartfelt beliefs could well be something else in the future.
Perhaps a comment that is alienating and threatening to the ruling class, or, perhaps more likely, some perfectly reasonable comment or steam from a valve which is cast as "vicious anti-white racism".
posted by AnhydrousLove at 6:51 AM on June 27, 2019 [2 favorites]
What I was hoping to convey with that is not that I think homophobic remarks are just heartfelt beliefs, but that the heartfelt beliefs could well be something else in the future.
Perhaps a comment that is alienating and threatening to the ruling class, or, perhaps more likely, some perfectly reasonable comment or steam from a valve which is cast as "vicious anti-white racism".
posted by AnhydrousLove at 6:51 AM on June 27, 2019 [2 favorites]
It's still a bad argument that's dismissing the actual reason for his sacking, and supports a trend of using euphemistic terminology to discount the harm that bigotry and hate speech do. Folau's firing is not the first step on the slippery slope to censorship, and I would hope that people would agree that bigotry is a good reason for firing someone.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:56 AM on June 27, 2019 [11 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:56 AM on June 27, 2019 [11 favorites]
could well be something else in the future
So: beware that slippery slope. Plays hell in a ruck?
In juniors I represented my state (no brag, I'm from Vic and we suck at rugby, so low bar), and it was constantly impressed upon us that our participation was dependent upon good behaviour on-field and off.
posted by pompomtom at 7:01 AM on June 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
So: beware that slippery slope. Plays hell in a ruck?
In juniors I represented my state (no brag, I'm from Vic and we suck at rugby, so low bar), and it was constantly impressed upon us that our participation was dependent upon good behaviour on-field and off.
posted by pompomtom at 7:01 AM on June 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
It's not a perfect argument, and I'm not out there protesting in Folau's defense or anything.
I'm still not comfortable with the mechanism of social justice being the same dictatorship of the workplace we regularly decry.
I'm going to bow out now, but I'm interested in looking at this and thinking about how we might be able to do things differently, especially given the way that justice is not even-handed or colour-blind in these matters.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 7:07 AM on June 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
I'm still not comfortable with the mechanism of social justice being the same dictatorship of the workplace we regularly decry.
I'm going to bow out now, but I'm interested in looking at this and thinking about how we might be able to do things differently, especially given the way that justice is not even-handed or colour-blind in these matters.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 7:07 AM on June 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
My takeaway from Hamad’s article is that the question is not whether Folau’s opinions are abhorrent or whether his team has the right to fire him, but why Falou has been specifically singled out when (white) political and media figures have been ignored while pushing the same views (although in vaguer language). Will Australian political parties and media companies fire equally homophobic spokespeople? Is the problem that Folau was homophobic or not deniable enough or non-white enough to be made a scapegoat?
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:17 AM on June 27, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:17 AM on June 27, 2019 [5 favorites]
Thank you for posting, AnhydrousLove, this is way outside my sphere of knowledge and not at all local to me but I appreciated the original article a lot.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 7:20 AM on June 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Lawn Beaver at 7:20 AM on June 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
It's not a perfect argument, and I'm not out there protesting in Folau's defense or anything.
I'm still not comfortable with the mechanism of social justice being the same dictatorship of the workplace we regularly decry.
I would hope that in better workplaces that aren't set up like dictatorships, open bigotry would still be grounds for dismissal. We decry the dictatorship of the workplace for being unjust - but I find it hard to see how a bigot getting sacked is unjust.
Is the problem that Folau was homophobic or not deniable enough or non-white enough to be made a scapegoat?
A little of each. The core problem is that he was blatant about it, but that, of course, most likely stems from the fact that he doesn't know how to phrase his hate in a plausibly deniable manner, which gets into matters of race, language, and code shifting.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:24 AM on June 27, 2019 [6 favorites]
I'm still not comfortable with the mechanism of social justice being the same dictatorship of the workplace we regularly decry.
I would hope that in better workplaces that aren't set up like dictatorships, open bigotry would still be grounds for dismissal. We decry the dictatorship of the workplace for being unjust - but I find it hard to see how a bigot getting sacked is unjust.
Is the problem that Folau was homophobic or not deniable enough or non-white enough to be made a scapegoat?
A little of each. The core problem is that he was blatant about it, but that, of course, most likely stems from the fact that he doesn't know how to phrase his hate in a plausibly deniable manner, which gets into matters of race, language, and code shifting.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:24 AM on June 27, 2019 [6 favorites]
I'm still not comfortable with the mechanism of social justice being the same dictatorship of the workplace we regularly decry.
Every method of enforcement or persuasion or coercion or encouragement of any kind at all can be used for evil. Does this mean that we can never use any methods to influence anything or anyone, because those same tools are used for evil?
posted by Dysk at 8:08 AM on June 27, 2019 [6 favorites]
Every method of enforcement or persuasion or coercion or encouragement of any kind at all can be used for evil. Does this mean that we can never use any methods to influence anything or anyone, because those same tools are used for evil?
posted by Dysk at 8:08 AM on June 27, 2019 [6 favorites]
most likely stems from the fact that he doesn't know how to phrase his hate in a plausibly deniable manner
That strikes me as incredibly condescending and borderline racist.
posted by tavella at 8:14 AM on June 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
That strikes me as incredibly condescending and borderline racist.
posted by tavella at 8:14 AM on June 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
I find it strange that so many media sources want to paint this as Folau being treated unfairly, while trying to maintain that they aren't agreeing with his homophobia. If you don't agree with the homophobia, then Folau was not treated at all unfairly. It is the white politicians not being held to account for their bigotry who are being treated unfairly. Go after that angle.
posted by Dysk at 8:16 AM on June 27, 2019 [13 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 8:16 AM on June 27, 2019 [13 favorites]
If you don't agree with the homophobia, then Folau was not treated at all unfairly.
Well, if they don’t agree and they believe that homophobia is not “just an opinion” but a sentiment that is actively and corrosively dangerous. I suspect many of those media sources just aren’t bothered too much by that second part and are more interested in how bland and pious denunciation might drive page views....
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:37 AM on June 27, 2019
Well, if they don’t agree and they believe that homophobia is not “just an opinion” but a sentiment that is actively and corrosively dangerous. I suspect many of those media sources just aren’t bothered too much by that second part and are more interested in how bland and pious denunciation might drive page views....
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:37 AM on June 27, 2019
If I'm a socialist, my employer might not like it, but I can talk about workers' rights til I'm blue in the face and probably keep my job. But if I start talking about capitalists and guillotines and how they're going to hell, I've likely crossed a line.
Folau didn't have to go to Pride or even befriend anyone who isn't straight. He could post only straight family photos to his social media and live a nice cloistered straight life and he'd be fine. Crossing the line was posting hatred toward queer folks.
But it really sucks that again and again, people of color are the only ones who get punished for crossing these lines. White bigots seem to always land on their feet.
posted by explosion at 9:02 AM on June 27, 2019 [8 favorites]
Folau didn't have to go to Pride or even befriend anyone who isn't straight. He could post only straight family photos to his social media and live a nice cloistered straight life and he'd be fine. Crossing the line was posting hatred toward queer folks.
But it really sucks that again and again, people of color are the only ones who get punished for crossing these lines. White bigots seem to always land on their feet.
posted by explosion at 9:02 AM on June 27, 2019 [8 favorites]
The universe decided, as a major prank, that I, a true non-sportif, should work with and for people at the pinnacle of various sporting codes. So I personally have met a lot of the senior people who are now making these sorts of decisions about their players.
My conclusion is the reinforcement of my belief that sport mainly consists of poor folk running around for the entertainment of rich folk. In discussions with these senior administrators there was a total lack of respect extended towards the sportspeople themselves.
And when someone points out the exercise of white male power and privilege - I concur and my strongest admiration for unpicking the threads
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 4:41 PM on June 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
My conclusion is the reinforcement of my belief that sport mainly consists of poor folk running around for the entertainment of rich folk. In discussions with these senior administrators there was a total lack of respect extended towards the sportspeople themselves.
And when someone points out the exercise of white male power and privilege - I concur and my strongest admiration for unpicking the threads
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 4:41 PM on June 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
In March 1996, three US servicemen stationed in Okinawa were convicted of the abduction and sexual assault of a 12-year-old Japanese girl. It was the first time the US military prosecuted any of its soldiers since they first occupied the island in the 1940s. This is despite the fact that Japanese activists had protested both the occupation itself, and the apparent impunity of the servicemen since one of them raped a six-year-old girl in 1955.Well that's a straight up lie:
Isaac J. Hurt was brought up on charges of rape and murder by a U.S. court-martial in Okinawa. His court martial lasted 13 days, during which time he insisted upon his innocence. He was convicted after a deliberation of less than an hour, and sentenced to death. His was the second conviction of a U.S. serviceman on Okinawa for rape in less than a month. Though he was initially sentenced to death by a US court martial, Hurt returned to the US without the Okinawan public being informed. His sentence was eventually reduced to 45 years.posted by L.P. Hatecraft at 7:19 PM on June 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
Remember if he wins he will get awarded costs, and will also get to keep all the money raised .... So at a best guess he's raising all that money so that he can lose (and get his and his supporters' panties all in a knot when he does)
posted by mbo at 8:22 PM on June 27, 2019
posted by mbo at 8:22 PM on June 27, 2019
If you don't agree with the homophobia, then Folau was not treated at all unfairly.
I don't know what media sources you were following, but most Australian employees would be able to say what they like out of work, as long as it didn't reflect badly on their employer. Maybe even then, as long as it wasn't part of their contract. Of course Folau's actions did reflect badly on his employer and reportedly were forbidden by his contract, but. I can see where the unfairness angle is coming from.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:46 PM on June 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
I don't know what media sources you were following, but most Australian employees would be able to say what they like out of work, as long as it didn't reflect badly on their employer. Maybe even then, as long as it wasn't part of their contract. Of course Folau's actions did reflect badly on his employer and reportedly were forbidden by his contract, but. I can see where the unfairness angle is coming from.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:46 PM on June 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
I've seen an awful lot of "well the homophobia is bad, but it isn't fair that he's being treated this way. White people get off scot free all the time" style sentiments. Which, the thing that's unfair there is the white people getting off scot free, not Folau being held to account for his views as a public face.
posted by Dysk at 1:27 AM on June 28, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 1:27 AM on June 28, 2019 [6 favorites]
I see it as equivalent to complaining about a particular type of worker or profession being paid a lot more than comparable workers. It isn't unfair that, say, mechanics are paid so much more than supermarket employees. The issue that deserves the outrage is how little the supermarket workers are paid. Getting the outrage at the wrong end of the equation puts pressure toward a leveling down approach to equality - we should all be treated as shittily as each other, we should all be allowed to be unrepentant bigots with no consequence, which makes the world worse. Instead, let's get outraged at the people who are underpaid, or get away with being bigots unscathed, let's try and aim for an ideal, not tear down any progress toward it when it's unevenly spread.
Demand better where we're failing, not worse where we aren't.
posted by Dysk at 1:46 AM on June 28, 2019 [3 favorites]
Demand better where we're failing, not worse where we aren't.
posted by Dysk at 1:46 AM on June 28, 2019 [3 favorites]
variance, emulations,
Satan moves in mysterious ways.
posted by Pouteria at 1:54 AM on June 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
Satan moves in mysterious ways.
posted by Pouteria at 1:54 AM on June 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
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He can say what he like in his church or to his friends, but we he is denigrating a whole section of society bases on his beliefs and shouting it to the world, he is out of line, especially with a football code who have long been supportive of everyone's rights.
He was warned several times over his judgmental and scolding tweets that he was breaking the terms of his contract, but he continued and even upped the ante.
posted by PollyWaffle at 9:55 PM on June 26, 2019 [11 favorites]