The other way around.
July 1, 2002 5:05 PM Subscribe
The other way around. This time a female teacher has been accused of sexual advances on a 13 y-o boy (now 18). The two had passed love notes in class, and when there weren't enough players for a pickup basketball game the then 26 y-o would join and press her hard body against the boy when guarding him.
Don't really see the novelty here. Certainly is not the first time.
posted by anathema at 5:10 PM on July 1, 2002
posted by anathema at 5:10 PM on July 1, 2002
Satapher, I saw this in the print edition a couple of days ago, and I remember the words "hard body" were used. It kind of of caught me off guard.
posted by ( .)(. ) at 5:13 PM on July 1, 2002
posted by ( .)(. ) at 5:13 PM on July 1, 2002
ummm, yeah. nothing new here, except for the lack of hard-bodied female teachers when i was in school.
posted by donkeysuck at 5:15 PM on July 1, 2002
posted by donkeysuck at 5:15 PM on July 1, 2002
More:
"One day, when they were short of players, she agreed to play and soon was playing regularly. She wore revealing clothing, the young man testified yesterday, and when guarding him would push her body up against his."
So, maybe she was soft.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:19 PM on July 1, 2002
"One day, when they were short of players, she agreed to play and soon was playing regularly. She wore revealing clothing, the young man testified yesterday, and when guarding him would push her body up against his."
So, maybe she was soft.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:19 PM on July 1, 2002
Sort of like how this, ( .)(. ), is the "other way around" of this,
( . )( . )?
posted by anathema at 5:27 PM on July 1, 2002
( . )( . )?
posted by anathema at 5:27 PM on July 1, 2002
Wow, tell me again why this kid's sueing? He's da man!
www.MetaFark.com
posted by matteo at 5:37 PM on July 1, 2002
www.MetaFark.com
posted by matteo at 5:37 PM on July 1, 2002
It seems to me there's less outrage when it's a female courting a male, and that's what I find so fascinating.
www.MetaFark.com
Maybe I'm MetaFarkish; this story needed a comment like that. Besides, it's just my opinion, I wouldn't sue if I was in his place.
posted by ( .)(. ) at 5:51 PM on July 1, 2002
www.MetaFark.com
Maybe I'm MetaFarkish; this story needed a comment like that. Besides, it's just my opinion, I wouldn't sue if I was in his place.
posted by ( .)(. ) at 5:51 PM on July 1, 2002
Heh sexual molestation of a child by an authority figure... funny.
posted by geoff. at 5:55 PM on July 1, 2002
posted by geoff. at 5:55 PM on July 1, 2002
Less outrage....hell, I used to pray my eighth-grade English teacher would harass me.
posted by alumshubby at 6:00 PM on July 1, 2002
posted by alumshubby at 6:00 PM on July 1, 2002
we're talking about criminal charges, not a civil claim; IANAL, but i don't think it's even up to the kid, especially given his age.
posted by juv3nal at 6:01 PM on July 1, 2002
posted by juv3nal at 6:01 PM on July 1, 2002
juv3nal, from the article:
In July, 2001, Ms. Sclater and the school board she worked for were sued by the student, his brother and their parents for $2.6-million. There has been no decision in that case.
Apparently, the defense in the criminal case is arguing that the boy's testimony is suspect because of it's relationship to this potential civil award. The boy spoke with a lawyer regarding suing the school board before going to police.
posted by mr_roboto at 6:09 PM on July 1, 2002
In July, 2001, Ms. Sclater and the school board she worked for were sued by the student, his brother and their parents for $2.6-million. There has been no decision in that case.
Apparently, the defense in the criminal case is arguing that the boy's testimony is suspect because of it's relationship to this potential civil award. The boy spoke with a lawyer regarding suing the school board before going to police.
posted by mr_roboto at 6:09 PM on July 1, 2002
I am an ignoramous. What is IANAL?
posted by SlappyPeterson at 6:26 PM on July 1, 2002
posted by SlappyPeterson at 6:26 PM on July 1, 2002
Less outrage....hell, I used to pray my eighth-grade English teacher would harass me.
I had a Business Law teacher that was so damn hot it made the subject appealing. Ah... Those were the days!
posted by revbrian at 6:39 PM on July 1, 2002
I had a Business Law teacher that was so damn hot it made the subject appealing. Ah... Those were the days!
posted by revbrian at 6:39 PM on July 1, 2002
acronymfinder.com for all your acronym needs.
I guess cold hard cash is behind all of this, and I wouldn't blame the family, easy 2 million $ if they can get it, the guy will prolly get himself a nice new sleek Hyundai to show off at college. In my opinion, this guy's living a dream, I mean did you see the teacher's photo?
*waters at the mouth*
posted by ( .)(. ) at 6:40 PM on July 1, 2002
I guess cold hard cash is behind all of this, and I wouldn't blame the family, easy 2 million $ if they can get it, the guy will prolly get himself a nice new sleek Hyundai to show off at college. In my opinion, this guy's living a dream, I mean did you see the teacher's photo?
*waters at the mouth*
posted by ( .)(. ) at 6:40 PM on July 1, 2002
The thing that makes it smell like a cash-in to me is the simple fact that the civil suit came first.
I don't understand how they can file a civil suit 12 months ago and only now does a criminal charge appear. Surely once the courts are aware of a sexual harrassment charge involving a minor and one of his teachers, a criminal investigation should be started right away?
IANAL either.
posted by Gamecat at 6:41 PM on July 1, 2002
I don't understand how they can file a civil suit 12 months ago and only now does a criminal charge appear. Surely once the courts are aware of a sexual harrassment charge involving a minor and one of his teachers, a criminal investigation should be started right away?
IANAL either.
posted by Gamecat at 6:41 PM on July 1, 2002
Yeah, what is that? Other way around, I would think sicko. This way, I think lucky bastard.
I'm with the wish-my-teacher-would-have-done-that-especially-if-she-was-that-hot school of thought going on here.
posted by dig_duggler at 6:44 PM on July 1, 2002
I'm with the wish-my-teacher-would-have-done-that-especially-if-she-was-that-hot school of thought going on here.
posted by dig_duggler at 6:44 PM on July 1, 2002
Whether or not you would have liked to have had the teacher making advances, if the kid didn't want her to and she did, that's harassment.
posted by jaden at 7:03 PM on July 1, 2002
posted by jaden at 7:03 PM on July 1, 2002
jaden, did you read the article that crash_davis provided?
From the link:
The boy said he developed a crush on Mrs. Sclater, whose husband also taught at the school.
''Who are you sitting beside at the show today? It better be two girls,'' he wrote in one letter. ''I think you have the hots for [someone else]. I hope not. You are so pretty and gorgeous you make every girl in our school look [bad]. Miss I thought I was your hottie -- you already have [someone else] lined up for next year!''
Nevermind when he sat in her lap after school, and the fact that they kissed (on the lips) numerous times. I can't imagine what he's complaining about.
posted by ( .)(. ) at 7:17 PM on July 1, 2002
From the link:
The boy said he developed a crush on Mrs. Sclater, whose husband also taught at the school.
''Who are you sitting beside at the show today? It better be two girls,'' he wrote in one letter. ''I think you have the hots for [someone else]. I hope not. You are so pretty and gorgeous you make every girl in our school look [bad]. Miss I thought I was your hottie -- you already have [someone else] lined up for next year!''
Nevermind when he sat in her lap after school, and the fact that they kissed (on the lips) numerous times. I can't imagine what he's complaining about.
posted by ( .)(. ) at 7:17 PM on July 1, 2002
What jaden said.
This seems like a case of the family seeing a civil suit as a cash cow and then the lawyer realising later that they needed a criminal complaint to prove in court that the boy had been wronged. How on earth did a civil case claiming sexual abuse manage to sit in the system for a year without a criminal investigation at the least, though?
Also what dig_duggler said (I'm of two minds about this aspect ;-))
posted by dg at 7:20 PM on July 1, 2002
This seems like a case of the family seeing a civil suit as a cash cow and then the lawyer realising later that they needed a criminal complaint to prove in court that the boy had been wronged. How on earth did a civil case claiming sexual abuse manage to sit in the system for a year without a criminal investigation at the least, though?
Also what dig_duggler said (I'm of two minds about this aspect ;-))
posted by dg at 7:20 PM on July 1, 2002
"accused of sexually assaulting a 13-year-old student in 1998." so wouldn't he be 17?
posted by banished at 8:40 PM on July 1, 2002
posted by banished at 8:40 PM on July 1, 2002
I'm pretty sure the thought process was like this: "Well, I've already brushed up against a hot teacher, but now I could use a few million dollars"
posted by delmoi at 10:14 PM on July 1, 2002
posted by delmoi at 10:14 PM on July 1, 2002
Sexual assault is never funny, except for the part where we think that it's okay for female authority figures to fool around with underage boys.
*officially starting troll*
For many years I had a thing for my English teacher. If she had ever shown the smallest sign of being interested, I might have been the happiest guy at Monument Mountain Regional High School. Ms. __ was a very attractive 27 year-old, and she was my teacher throughout my accelerated program (or maybe it was the remedial program). Does it really matter?
Anyhoo, if what I had dreamed about had really happened, It would have been the best fifteen seconds of my life. Honestly.
*end troll*
It's never pretty when someone "takes advantage" of someone else, but why is it so much worse when there's a man taking advantage of a young woman? Even I seem to have bought into it.
*okay, seriously. End troll*
posted by Samsonov14 at 10:34 PM on July 1, 2002
*officially starting troll*
For many years I had a thing for my English teacher. If she had ever shown the smallest sign of being interested, I might have been the happiest guy at Monument Mountain Regional High School. Ms. __ was a very attractive 27 year-old, and she was my teacher throughout my accelerated program (or maybe it was the remedial program). Does it really matter?
Anyhoo, if what I had dreamed about had really happened, It would have been the best fifteen seconds of my life. Honestly.
*end troll*
It's never pretty when someone "takes advantage" of someone else, but why is it so much worse when there's a man taking advantage of a young woman? Even I seem to have bought into it.
*okay, seriously. End troll*
posted by Samsonov14 at 10:34 PM on July 1, 2002
> why is it so much worse when there's a man taking
> advantage of a young woman?
For one thing (or maybe it's the only thing), young girls get pregnant and young boys don't. Even if a girl and boy potentially suffer equal psychological effects, run the same risks of disease, etc., the girl also can easily end up with a baby if she doesn't know what she's doing, while an older woman will likely make sure no unwanted baby results from her fling with a young boy. Once the girl's pregnancy is a fact, many people are unwilling to reverse it, so a short fling turns into a difficult childhood and perhaps a lost education for the girl, and usually an unwanted human being on the side.
posted by pracowity at 11:50 PM on July 1, 2002
> advantage of a young woman?
For one thing (or maybe it's the only thing), young girls get pregnant and young boys don't. Even if a girl and boy potentially suffer equal psychological effects, run the same risks of disease, etc., the girl also can easily end up with a baby if she doesn't know what she's doing, while an older woman will likely make sure no unwanted baby results from her fling with a young boy. Once the girl's pregnancy is a fact, many people are unwilling to reverse it, so a short fling turns into a difficult childhood and perhaps a lost education for the girl, and usually an unwanted human being on the side.
posted by pracowity at 11:50 PM on July 1, 2002
pracowity, that doesn't make the act more or less wrong, only the more obvious results. Forcing sexual attentions on another person when you are in a position of authority over that person is simply wrong. I agree though that females potentially suffer more than males in the same situation.
While many male adolescents fantasise about their female teachers (and almost any other female in sight), for an adult to allow matters to progress beyond that is wrong. Whether he reciprocated or not is not really relevant, she should have said “enough”.
This is all assuming that the story is accurate and, given the time that has elapsed since the events took place, the likelihood of that is not great, IMHO. In which case, I say "lucky bugger".
posted by dg at 12:05 AM on July 2, 2002
While many male adolescents fantasise about their female teachers (and almost any other female in sight), for an adult to allow matters to progress beyond that is wrong. Whether he reciprocated or not is not really relevant, she should have said “enough”.
This is all assuming that the story is accurate and, given the time that has elapsed since the events took place, the likelihood of that is not great, IMHO. In which case, I say "lucky bugger".
posted by dg at 12:05 AM on July 2, 2002
many male adolescents fantasise about their female teachers (and almost any other female in sight),
Don't girls too? Maybe in a manner entirely different than that of boys, but don't they too have fantasies about their teachers?
I'm going to guess yes.
The bias to protect females is a load of crap with little to none logical structure behind it. I'm one to open doors for women, but I recognize it for what it is: silly courtesy. The whole unwanted pregnancy issue is brought forth by many of the same people who will negate a woman's choice to do what she wants with an embryo that cannot survive outside her body. Should abortions be always more tragic than strictly necessary? What will mark more: a teenage abortion or teenage parenting?
Otherwise, it is obviously the adults' responsibility to know when to stop.
posted by magullo at 12:57 AM on July 2, 2002
Don't girls too? Maybe in a manner entirely different than that of boys, but don't they too have fantasies about their teachers?
I'm going to guess yes.
The bias to protect females is a load of crap with little to none logical structure behind it. I'm one to open doors for women, but I recognize it for what it is: silly courtesy. The whole unwanted pregnancy issue is brought forth by many of the same people who will negate a woman's choice to do what she wants with an embryo that cannot survive outside her body. Should abortions be always more tragic than strictly necessary? What will mark more: a teenage abortion or teenage parenting?
Otherwise, it is obviously the adults' responsibility to know when to stop.
posted by magullo at 12:57 AM on July 2, 2002
> that doesn't make the act more or less wrong
The possibility that an unprepared mother (say, thirteen years old) will have an unwanted child does indeed make it more wrong: you must consider the potential harm to the child, not just to the mother. Or, if the girl chooses abortion (which is generally what I think I would recommend), she still risks greater harm to herself than the boy does. A man-girl affair generally has more potential to do harm to a child (or children) than a woman-boy affair has, assuming that the latter is less likely to result in an unwanted pregnancy.
posted by pracowity at 1:08 AM on July 2, 2002
The possibility that an unprepared mother (say, thirteen years old) will have an unwanted child does indeed make it more wrong: you must consider the potential harm to the child, not just to the mother. Or, if the girl chooses abortion (which is generally what I think I would recommend), she still risks greater harm to herself than the boy does. A man-girl affair generally has more potential to do harm to a child (or children) than a woman-boy affair has, assuming that the latter is less likely to result in an unwanted pregnancy.
posted by pracowity at 1:08 AM on July 2, 2002
one point that no one has raised is that as a teacher you have an unwritten duty to avoid students becoming too close to you. You are also in a position of authority, respect and power .. perhaps she didn't abuse the kid .. but she did abuse her position.
sure i wanted to sleep with cute teachers .. if it had happened of course i wouldn't have millions of $$ coming to me ... but i think the teacher should lose their right to teach.
posted by mrben at 1:34 AM on July 2, 2002
sure i wanted to sleep with cute teachers .. if it had happened of course i wouldn't have millions of $$ coming to me ... but i think the teacher should lose their right to teach.
posted by mrben at 1:34 AM on July 2, 2002
Speaking as a female, it was tougher to find a male teacher to fantasize about -- you generally don't see male teachers until you get to high school, and once I was there, most of them were much older men. With bad taste in clothes. The one male teacher who was at all attractive I pegged for a slimeball (he coached one of the girls' sports teams), and it turned out that he married one of his students after she graduated high school. Of course, he quit teaching at that school before he married her. Very cautious.
In any case, I think girls would fantasize about their male teachers, if there were more of them, and they were more attractive.
I think it's wrong in either case for a teacher to get sexually involved with a student at any age (the cases where graduate advisors marry their students I think are quite creepy, though everyone involved is well into adulthood). Though there's not much one can do with consenting adults, I don't think there's such thing as a consenting 13-yr-old. I'm a big believer in statutory rape laws for both boys and girls. It doesn't matter if the kid "wanted it" or not, no adult should be messing with a child. And 13-years-old is definitely a child.
(As for the 17/18-yr-old disparity... the guy's birthday could be in June -- so he was 13 years old at the beginning of the school year, and by now this year he's already had his birthday.)
posted by meep at 3:59 AM on July 2, 2002
In any case, I think girls would fantasize about their male teachers, if there were more of them, and they were more attractive.
I think it's wrong in either case for a teacher to get sexually involved with a student at any age (the cases where graduate advisors marry their students I think are quite creepy, though everyone involved is well into adulthood). Though there's not much one can do with consenting adults, I don't think there's such thing as a consenting 13-yr-old. I'm a big believer in statutory rape laws for both boys and girls. It doesn't matter if the kid "wanted it" or not, no adult should be messing with a child. And 13-years-old is definitely a child.
(As for the 17/18-yr-old disparity... the guy's birthday could be in June -- so he was 13 years old at the beginning of the school year, and by now this year he's already had his birthday.)
posted by meep at 3:59 AM on July 2, 2002
one male teacher ... it turned out that he married one of his students after she graduated high school.
one of the male teachers who also coached a girls' sports team at my high school also married one of his former students. it only lasted a year. then, he married another former student.
posted by tolkhan at 6:09 AM on July 2, 2002
one of the male teachers who also coached a girls' sports team at my high school also married one of his former students. it only lasted a year. then, he married another former student.
posted by tolkhan at 6:09 AM on July 2, 2002
"Ms. Sclater's licence to teach was revoked by the Ontario College of Teachers after the charges were laid."
No pun intended?
posted by a3matrix at 6:27 AM on July 2, 2002
No pun intended?
posted by a3matrix at 6:27 AM on July 2, 2002
The bias to protect females
That's exactly what it is. The double standard irritates me no end. You have a kid and it's a boy, he gets to be of age and starts spending time on the phone with girls, it's all "Way to GO, son," wink wink nudge. You have a kid and it's a girl, she gets to be of age and starts spending time on the phone with boys, it's time to break out the chastity belt.
IANAP---I Am Not A Parent. Am a girl, however, so I claim as my own the right to be disgusted on this one.
if the kid didn't want her to and she did, that's harassment
Respectfully disagree. Wanting it is beside the point, which is why statutory rape laws exist. (Not that I'm in all cases a huge fan of those laws; it seems to be they can be too easily used as weapons by parents outraged that their 15-year-old daughter and 17-year-old boyfriend, or whatever, found the key to the chastity belt. There ought to be a "point spread" requirement to these sorts of charges, if you ask me.) The point here is abuse of her position of authority. You have to think that anyone who is a teacher and doesn't know to stay very, very, very far away from anything that could even *look* unseemly has got to be a little wrong in the head. Much less, takes it as far as it seems to've gotten with this woman.
posted by Sapphireblue at 7:43 AM on July 2, 2002
That's exactly what it is. The double standard irritates me no end. You have a kid and it's a boy, he gets to be of age and starts spending time on the phone with girls, it's all "Way to GO, son," wink wink nudge. You have a kid and it's a girl, she gets to be of age and starts spending time on the phone with boys, it's time to break out the chastity belt.
IANAP---I Am Not A Parent. Am a girl, however, so I claim as my own the right to be disgusted on this one.
if the kid didn't want her to and she did, that's harassment
Respectfully disagree. Wanting it is beside the point, which is why statutory rape laws exist. (Not that I'm in all cases a huge fan of those laws; it seems to be they can be too easily used as weapons by parents outraged that their 15-year-old daughter and 17-year-old boyfriend, or whatever, found the key to the chastity belt. There ought to be a "point spread" requirement to these sorts of charges, if you ask me.) The point here is abuse of her position of authority. You have to think that anyone who is a teacher and doesn't know to stay very, very, very far away from anything that could even *look* unseemly has got to be a little wrong in the head. Much less, takes it as far as it seems to've gotten with this woman.
posted by Sapphireblue at 7:43 AM on July 2, 2002
the girl also can easily end up with a baby if she doesn't know what she's doing, while an older woman will likely make sure no unwanted baby results from her fling with a young boy.
Didn't happen that way here.
posted by JanetLand at 8:06 AM on July 2, 2002
Didn't happen that way here.
posted by JanetLand at 8:06 AM on July 2, 2002
My bullshit detector went off about halfway through the article. Here's why: if I suspected an adult, male or female, had molested or harassed my son, my first call would be to the police, not a tort lawyer.
That they didn't file charges until after they filed a civil case taints the entire case IMHO.
A telling bit from the article: The police officer also took part in the first investigation of the complaint, in June of 1998, not long after the victim's mother discovered the letters. At that time, the victim said no physical touching had occurred. An investigation by the Children's Aid Society at the time also concluded no disclosure of sexual abuse had been made by the victim or any of the many students interviewed.
I call bullshit on this kid, and his family. They're looking for free money.
posted by dejah420 at 8:30 AM on July 2, 2002
That they didn't file charges until after they filed a civil case taints the entire case IMHO.
A telling bit from the article: The police officer also took part in the first investigation of the complaint, in June of 1998, not long after the victim's mother discovered the letters. At that time, the victim said no physical touching had occurred. An investigation by the Children's Aid Society at the time also concluded no disclosure of sexual abuse had been made by the victim or any of the many students interviewed.
I call bullshit on this kid, and his family. They're looking for free money.
posted by dejah420 at 8:30 AM on July 2, 2002
What a wonderful world we will have when all human emotion has been criminalized, prosecuted, and punished.
Bring on the machines!
posted by rushmc at 8:45 AM on July 2, 2002
Bring on the machines!
posted by rushmc at 8:45 AM on July 2, 2002
> Didn't happen that way here.
No, it didn't, but at least she was old enough that she should have known how not to get pregnant. An older woman will likely make sure no unwanted baby results, as I said before, but of course a few will accidentally or purposely get pregnant.
posted by pracowity at 8:59 AM on July 2, 2002
No, it didn't, but at least she was old enough that she should have known how not to get pregnant. An older woman will likely make sure no unwanted baby results, as I said before, but of course a few will accidentally or purposely get pregnant.
posted by pracowity at 8:59 AM on July 2, 2002
but at least she was old enough that she should have known how not to get pregnant
Um, it's not that complicated. I don't think years of apprenticing are required to master the requisite techniques.
posted by rushmc at 9:13 AM on July 2, 2002
Um, it's not that complicated. I don't think years of apprenticing are required to master the requisite techniques.
posted by rushmc at 9:13 AM on July 2, 2002
Hear, Hear SapphireBlue. I can't stand the double standard, as well. As a woman, it irks me to no end that the sons of friends don't have curfews and can go out and do whatever and they get a "wink, wink, that's my SON!" from the parents. While a girl is considered a slut (even if she's not...she COULD be!) and gets locked up and what she does is closely guarded and watched. It's a sad, pathetic double standard. Because it's the "wink wink boys" that are half the equasion that are getting girls in trouble.
As for this story, I agree that perhaps the guy enjoyed it, but the teacher still abused her position of authority. No matter how hot she was for him, it's still against the law and she shouldn't act on her feelings. It's her responsiblity as a teacher.
Girls in school fantisize about cute guy teachers, I guarantee it. We just don't go to the extremes that guys do (girls mostly dream about kissing the teacher... and guys dream about sex.)
Also, (.)(.), could you be a little more thoughtful? We all get it that you like the thought of a teacher molesting you and that you think the guy is lucky. I feel that your postings are an attempt to elicit an "isn't (.) (.) cool?" reaction out of the guys on MeFi. That combined with your slighly offensive posting name, I wonder how old you are....it all seems a bit juvenile.
posted by aacheson at 9:16 AM on July 2, 2002
As for this story, I agree that perhaps the guy enjoyed it, but the teacher still abused her position of authority. No matter how hot she was for him, it's still against the law and she shouldn't act on her feelings. It's her responsiblity as a teacher.
Girls in school fantisize about cute guy teachers, I guarantee it. We just don't go to the extremes that guys do (girls mostly dream about kissing the teacher... and guys dream about sex.)
Also, (.)(.), could you be a little more thoughtful? We all get it that you like the thought of a teacher molesting you and that you think the guy is lucky. I feel that your postings are an attempt to elicit an "isn't (.) (.) cool?" reaction out of the guys on MeFi. That combined with your slighly offensive posting name, I wonder how old you are....it all seems a bit juvenile.
posted by aacheson at 9:16 AM on July 2, 2002
By the logic of "the older woman won't get pregnant," then it's okay for an older man to screw with young teenage boys.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:22 AM on July 2, 2002
posted by five fresh fish at 9:22 AM on July 2, 2002
Not okay. Just not likely to result in pregnancy, which was all I claimed.
posted by pracowity at 9:43 AM on July 2, 2002
posted by pracowity at 9:43 AM on July 2, 2002
aacheson, I'm on your side. It's the double standard that get's me. Do you know why it exists? Principally because men and women aren't equal, and parents feel that their daughter is more vulnerable to abuse. Everything turns around the fact that whatever men want they'll get, for example pornography exists because there's a strong demand from the male population, so now everybody knows that generally it's the men that want sex (emphasizing generally here). So parents are reluctant to trust their daughter on a date, while on the flip side guys are expected to get some action so they only reinforce the notion of guys wanting sex a lot more than girls.
In any case, I wasn't trying to elicit any illicit reactions from the male community here, just trying to put these things in perspective. I'll tell you this much, any 13 y-o guy is obsessed with the female body. Sure the teacher abused her position of authority but it wasn't as if what she was doing was against his will and the whole "innocence" thing.
It's almost a replica of the Villi affair that someone linked to above.
As for my nickname, well we live in a democracy I hope, and that's the precise reason why I'm testing the waters here, so be angry all you want but it's just a couple of parentheses with dots, and if you're offended by that, well what can I say. Seriously though I'm not trying to troll, no matter how it comes out.
posted by ( .)(. ) at 9:54 AM on July 2, 2002
In any case, I wasn't trying to elicit any illicit reactions from the male community here, just trying to put these things in perspective. I'll tell you this much, any 13 y-o guy is obsessed with the female body. Sure the teacher abused her position of authority but it wasn't as if what she was doing was against his will and the whole "innocence" thing.
It's almost a replica of the Villi affair that someone linked to above.
As for my nickname, well we live in a democracy I hope, and that's the precise reason why I'm testing the waters here, so be angry all you want but it's just a couple of parentheses with dots, and if you're offended by that, well what can I say. Seriously though I'm not trying to troll, no matter how it comes out.
posted by ( .)(. ) at 9:54 AM on July 2, 2002
I'm registering 8=====D if new user signups ever reopen.
posted by insomnyuk at 10:48 AM on July 2, 2002
posted by insomnyuk at 10:48 AM on July 2, 2002
insomnyuk: I don't mean to judge, but lefty's looking a little squished.
posted by ColdChef at 10:57 AM on July 2, 2002
posted by ColdChef at 10:57 AM on July 2, 2002
ColdChef, you always know how to humiliate me and make me laugh at the same time. Cheers :)
posted by insomnyuk at 11:00 AM on July 2, 2002
posted by insomnyuk at 11:00 AM on July 2, 2002
I'm not offended, it's just juvenile. That said, insomnyuk made me laugh.
At any rate, I shouldn't have gotten personal, (.)(.), so I'm sorry.
posted by aacheson at 11:12 AM on July 2, 2002
At any rate, I shouldn't have gotten personal, (.)(.), so I'm sorry.
posted by aacheson at 11:12 AM on July 2, 2002
Bottom line of the article, the suit and the amount, is what I thought from the article.
And you know what if I had this done to me, She would sit on his lap or get him to sit on hers, I would sue.
1. I'd been squished by my larger than me teachers.
2. For me to sit on her lap, I'm sure no teacher would mind,
but, me, icky. Like french kissing grandma . icky icky oooh.
Did you all read this, we could see her.
Who is "we." Does the answer lay in this statement from the article, Ms. Sclater and the school board she worked for were sued by the student, his brother and their parents for $2.6-million,
Can I be a we. Yet from the picture, I think once you take the executive look off, she's plain Jane. Not that plain is bad, but it is obvious the kid was not too turned "on". As most men have dreamed this, me too. mho.
pracowity, hmm??why is it so much worse when there's a man taking
> advantage of a young woman?
For one thing (or maybe it's the only thing), young girls get pregnant and young boys don't. should I go on?
Our sex(did you choose your organ and your body function) is no reason to say ok or not, why do you think old men take advantage of young girls? What I'm saying how do you learn, usually at a young age. Please I hope you would re-think that idea, and forget the PC crap. What are you teaching your sons, screw a woman more ways than one. As it is her fault because she can have a child and he can't. Now I know what the world is being baited by moms about men, and look at now, thanks. Now for me to go look under a rock for my plain Jane, notice no "c" in those last two words.
This, is not about you. It is plain icky. :)
posted by thomcatspike at 11:30 AM on July 2, 2002
And you know what if I had this done to me, She would sit on his lap or get him to sit on hers, I would sue.
1. I'd been squished by my larger than me teachers.
2. For me to sit on her lap, I'm sure no teacher would mind,
but, me, icky. Like french kissing grandma . icky icky oooh.
Did you all read this, we could see her.
Who is "we." Does the answer lay in this statement from the article, Ms. Sclater and the school board she worked for were sued by the student, his brother and their parents for $2.6-million,
Can I be a we. Yet from the picture, I think once you take the executive look off, she's plain Jane. Not that plain is bad, but it is obvious the kid was not too turned "on". As most men have dreamed this, me too. mho.
pracowity, hmm??why is it so much worse when there's a man taking
> advantage of a young woman?
For one thing (or maybe it's the only thing), young girls get pregnant and young boys don't. should I go on?
Our sex(did you choose your organ and your body function) is no reason to say ok or not, why do you think old men take advantage of young girls? What I'm saying how do you learn, usually at a young age. Please I hope you would re-think that idea, and forget the PC crap. What are you teaching your sons, screw a woman more ways than one. As it is her fault because she can have a child and he can't. Now I know what the world is being baited by moms about men, and look at now, thanks. Now for me to go look under a rock for my plain Jane, notice no "c" in those last two words.
This, is not about you. It is plain icky. :)
posted by thomcatspike at 11:30 AM on July 2, 2002
testing the waters
So that's the new euphamism for trolling?
posted by inpHilltr8r at 2:19 PM on July 2, 2002
So that's the new euphamism for trolling?
posted by inpHilltr8r at 2:19 PM on July 2, 2002
What a shame I have to sleep when the rest of you are awake (maybe I should move to a new time zone, or give up sleeping).
pracowcity says - The possibility that an unprepared mother (say, thirteen years old) will have an unwanted child does indeed make it more wrong: you must consider the potential harm to the child, not just to the mother
I still say that the act, one of an abuse of trust, is itself no more wrong, despite the possible consequences being far greater. Don’t forget though, that it is no longer as easy for the male in the equation to walk away from his responsibilities as it one was and, while he can walk away physically, he will have to provide support for the child financially.
meep says - it was tougher to find a male teacher to fantasize about
Probably even more so now due to male teachers walking away from teaching because they are afraid of false accusations of sexual abuse. The same accusation as this case, levelled against a male teacher having abused a female student, would have been viewed much more seriously. This is why the numbers of male teachers (particularly in primary school) are declining in Australia and, I would guess, around the world. Currently, less than 20% of teachers at primary level in Australia are male.
Sapphireblue says - You have a kid and it's a boy, he gets to be of age and starts spending time on the phone with girls, it's all "Way to GO, son," wink wink nudge. You have a kid and it's a girl, she gets to be of age and starts spending time on the phone with boys, it's time to break out the chastity belt.
Despite all the facts in the world, including that it is totally unfair, biased and is nothing short of gender discrimination, this is going to happen, because of what pracowcity has been saying – the potential consequences are dramatically different.
I can remember being a teenage boy and pretty much being able to go out as I pleased (within limitations of course), but now that I am the father of a 16 year old girl, things are very different. When she goes out, I want to know where, with whom, when, what etc and, when I pick her up, I will do things like arrive early to check on what is going on (terrible lack of trust, I know, but I feel that I have to protect her from harm).
posted by dg at 3:46 PM on July 2, 2002
pracowcity says - The possibility that an unprepared mother (say, thirteen years old) will have an unwanted child does indeed make it more wrong: you must consider the potential harm to the child, not just to the mother
I still say that the act, one of an abuse of trust, is itself no more wrong, despite the possible consequences being far greater. Don’t forget though, that it is no longer as easy for the male in the equation to walk away from his responsibilities as it one was and, while he can walk away physically, he will have to provide support for the child financially.
meep says - it was tougher to find a male teacher to fantasize about
Probably even more so now due to male teachers walking away from teaching because they are afraid of false accusations of sexual abuse. The same accusation as this case, levelled against a male teacher having abused a female student, would have been viewed much more seriously. This is why the numbers of male teachers (particularly in primary school) are declining in Australia and, I would guess, around the world. Currently, less than 20% of teachers at primary level in Australia are male.
Sapphireblue says - You have a kid and it's a boy, he gets to be of age and starts spending time on the phone with girls, it's all "Way to GO, son," wink wink nudge. You have a kid and it's a girl, she gets to be of age and starts spending time on the phone with boys, it's time to break out the chastity belt.
Despite all the facts in the world, including that it is totally unfair, biased and is nothing short of gender discrimination, this is going to happen, because of what pracowcity has been saying – the potential consequences are dramatically different.
I can remember being a teenage boy and pretty much being able to go out as I pleased (within limitations of course), but now that I am the father of a 16 year old girl, things are very different. When she goes out, I want to know where, with whom, when, what etc and, when I pick her up, I will do things like arrive early to check on what is going on (terrible lack of trust, I know, but I feel that I have to protect her from harm).
posted by dg at 3:46 PM on July 2, 2002
as a female professor I think the reason why female teachers as abusers are taken less seriously is because there is a perception that male teachers are more aggressive and more likely to switch to more threatening ways to get what they want. (I'm not saying this is true, I'm saying I think people perceive men as more willing to coerce than women) I think there is an idea that if a female teacher hits on a student and the students says no the teacher just says ok and moves on. Also there is the feeling that young men would be more equipped to fend off unwanted advances.
Having said I am a young teacher and I know that many of my students have crushes on me (they have confessed this to other teachers) Colleages have told me about these crushes so that I can be aware of how I deal with these students,(ie avoid potential law suits) but some of my male colleages have suggested that at the end of the year there would be no reason why I wouldn't be able to act on the crush if I wanted to. (which makes me wonder what they are up to) It is all I can do not to wretch. Even though my students are eighteen and over I would not take advantage of them like that. And not just to avoid a law suit either.
posted by miss-lapin at 3:51 PM on July 2, 2002 [1 favorite]
Having said I am a young teacher and I know that many of my students have crushes on me (they have confessed this to other teachers) Colleages have told me about these crushes so that I can be aware of how I deal with these students,(ie avoid potential law suits) but some of my male colleages have suggested that at the end of the year there would be no reason why I wouldn't be able to act on the crush if I wanted to. (which makes me wonder what they are up to) It is all I can do not to wretch. Even though my students are eighteen and over I would not take advantage of them like that. And not just to avoid a law suit either.
posted by miss-lapin at 3:51 PM on July 2, 2002 [1 favorite]
" This is why the numbers of male teachers (particularly in primary school) are declining in Australia and, I would guess, around the world. Currently, less than 20% of teachers at primary level in Australia are male."
And this is a shame two-fold:
First, most teacher-student abuse happens in high-school, not primary schools. The hysteria is unwarranted.
Secondly, many -- and perhaps, these days, most -- children are being raised in single-parent families headed by a female. They desperately need male role models in their lives, and particularly during their formative years.
Couple that with the negative stereotypes of men portrayed in the popular media -- ie. that all men are stupid and/or violent, a la Homer, Adam Sandler (ugh), etc -- and we've got ourselves a whole handful of kids who are going to have completely fubared ideas of what being a man is all about. God help the next generation, 'cause we sure aren't.
We need more men in the primary schools. Fat chance: the hysteria and scapegoating are going to prevent that.
posted by five fresh fish at 4:11 PM on July 2, 2002
And this is a shame two-fold:
First, most teacher-student abuse happens in high-school, not primary schools. The hysteria is unwarranted.
Secondly, many -- and perhaps, these days, most -- children are being raised in single-parent families headed by a female. They desperately need male role models in their lives, and particularly during their formative years.
Couple that with the negative stereotypes of men portrayed in the popular media -- ie. that all men are stupid and/or violent, a la Homer, Adam Sandler (ugh), etc -- and we've got ourselves a whole handful of kids who are going to have completely fubared ideas of what being a man is all about. God help the next generation, 'cause we sure aren't.
We need more men in the primary schools. Fat chance: the hysteria and scapegoating are going to prevent that.
posted by five fresh fish at 4:11 PM on July 2, 2002
most teacher-student abuse happens in high-school, not primary schools.
I could be wrong, but I think that the opposite is true (here at least). The same applies to pre-school education, with almost no males working in this field because of fear of being wrongly accused. I can see it getting worse rather than better, as the numbers of new male graduates declines due to teaching no longer being seen as a desirable career for males.
This is, I believe, a symptom of the litigation fever that has gripped the world (we are only starting to see this here in Australia). If someone stands a fair chance of being sued years later for something that he is not guilty of, why choose a career that leaves you wide open to this? Male teachers are particularly susceptible, as they stand to be accused of abusing both male and female students.
I agree wholeheartedly about the desperate need for male role models and, growing up as the only male in a single-parent household with three sisters, my primary male role models were teachers. We are certainly, as a society, not providing positive examples to our young men of how they should act. I was brought up in a time when men opened doors etc for women and yet this type of behaviour is now discouraged as sexist and condescending. Unfortunately, we have not replaced this with a clear idea of how we should treat women – no wonder our young men are confused.
posted by dg at 4:50 PM on July 2, 2002
I could be wrong, but I think that the opposite is true (here at least). The same applies to pre-school education, with almost no males working in this field because of fear of being wrongly accused. I can see it getting worse rather than better, as the numbers of new male graduates declines due to teaching no longer being seen as a desirable career for males.
This is, I believe, a symptom of the litigation fever that has gripped the world (we are only starting to see this here in Australia). If someone stands a fair chance of being sued years later for something that he is not guilty of, why choose a career that leaves you wide open to this? Male teachers are particularly susceptible, as they stand to be accused of abusing both male and female students.
I agree wholeheartedly about the desperate need for male role models and, growing up as the only male in a single-parent household with three sisters, my primary male role models were teachers. We are certainly, as a society, not providing positive examples to our young men of how they should act. I was brought up in a time when men opened doors etc for women and yet this type of behaviour is now discouraged as sexist and condescending. Unfortunately, we have not replaced this with a clear idea of how we should treat women – no wonder our young men are confused.
posted by dg at 4:50 PM on July 2, 2002
the potential consequences are dramatically different.
Sure they are. But why should the burden of those consequences lie near-exclusively with girls and women, when, as aacheson pointed out, it takes two to tango?
The 'potential consequences' could be considerably lessened if more of America's sons were given, more than just an 'attaboy' and maybe a condom, a serious talking-to about the ways in which desire can be dangerous. Why should the charge of defense of morals and chastity be given solely to women? Why should anyone ever be surprised at boys behaving badly when no one ever seriously teaches or expects them to behave any differently?
On the opposite side of it, I was once a teenage girl, and I suspect I'd've made better choices about sex myself if I'd felt I could talk to my parents about it with any degree of honesty. The threat of being locked up in the castle tower to the age of thirty does not magically vaporize a young girl's sexuality or the peer pressure to engage in sexual activity. It just makes her less likely to discuss such matters with her parents, and therefore less able to make informed, confident decisions about having sex.
Eh. I don't think I am explaining well but I'm topic-drifting like mad anyway, so this'll have to do.
posted by Sapphireblue at 5:25 PM on July 2, 2002
Sure they are. But why should the burden of those consequences lie near-exclusively with girls and women, when, as aacheson pointed out, it takes two to tango?
The 'potential consequences' could be considerably lessened if more of America's sons were given, more than just an 'attaboy' and maybe a condom, a serious talking-to about the ways in which desire can be dangerous. Why should the charge of defense of morals and chastity be given solely to women? Why should anyone ever be surprised at boys behaving badly when no one ever seriously teaches or expects them to behave any differently?
On the opposite side of it, I was once a teenage girl, and I suspect I'd've made better choices about sex myself if I'd felt I could talk to my parents about it with any degree of honesty. The threat of being locked up in the castle tower to the age of thirty does not magically vaporize a young girl's sexuality or the peer pressure to engage in sexual activity. It just makes her less likely to discuss such matters with her parents, and therefore less able to make informed, confident decisions about having sex.
Eh. I don't think I am explaining well but I'm topic-drifting like mad anyway, so this'll have to do.
posted by Sapphireblue at 5:25 PM on July 2, 2002
...a serious talking-to about the ways in which desire can be dangerous
While actions may be dangerous, feelings are not.
posted by NortonDC at 5:56 PM on July 2, 2002
While actions may be dangerous, feelings are not.
posted by NortonDC at 5:56 PM on July 2, 2002
All I can say is, a grown woman who's sexually attracted to a thirteen-year-old boy is twisted - boys that age are barely pubescent.
Of course, I think that grown men who are attracted to thirteen-year-old girls are screwed up, as well. And I'm speaking as a woman who, at fifteen, had a thirty-one year old lover. I didn't consider it wrong at the time, but I sure do wonder what the hell was wrong with that guy now that I am thirty-one.
posted by acridrabbit at 8:06 PM on July 2, 2002
Of course, I think that grown men who are attracted to thirteen-year-old girls are screwed up, as well. And I'm speaking as a woman who, at fifteen, had a thirty-one year old lover. I didn't consider it wrong at the time, but I sure do wonder what the hell was wrong with that guy now that I am thirty-one.
posted by acridrabbit at 8:06 PM on July 2, 2002
Sapphireblue, you are absolutely correct - it sucks that females bear the brunt of responsibility (potentially anyway) in these situations, but there doesn’t seem to be much that can be done about it. It is simply a physical fact that females are the ones who have babies, end of story.
While we have drifted off-topic a tad, the principle holds that, despite the seemingly common belief that an older female taking advantage of a younger male is not as bad as the reverse, in the end a female student is far more likely to end up in a life-changing (for the worse) situation than a male student in a situation such as this. This does not make the actual act any worse, but (again) the consequences are.
In the end, it doesn’t matter who you are or what you do, if you take advantage of someone whose trust you have been given, you are wrong, wrong, wrong.
posted by dg at 9:39 PM on July 2, 2002
While we have drifted off-topic a tad, the principle holds that, despite the seemingly common belief that an older female taking advantage of a younger male is not as bad as the reverse, in the end a female student is far more likely to end up in a life-changing (for the worse) situation than a male student in a situation such as this. This does not make the actual act any worse, but (again) the consequences are.
In the end, it doesn’t matter who you are or what you do, if you take advantage of someone whose trust you have been given, you are wrong, wrong, wrong.
posted by dg at 9:39 PM on July 2, 2002
Here's a little background on the story from the Globe and Mail in 2000 (and also the double standard debate). From the article I linked to just now:
Do you catch a whiff of double standards in the air? So do the amazed parents of the kids in Laura Sclater's Grade 3 class. "If it was a man who sent letters like that to a 13-year-old girl, he wouldn't be allowed near the school," says one of them.
Makes for interesting reading.
For some, life is soap.
posted by ( .)(. ) at 9:57 PM on July 2, 2002
Do you catch a whiff of double standards in the air? So do the amazed parents of the kids in Laura Sclater's Grade 3 class. "If it was a man who sent letters like that to a 13-year-old girl, he wouldn't be allowed near the school," says one of them.
Makes for interesting reading.
For some, life is soap.
posted by ( .)(. ) at 9:57 PM on July 2, 2002
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