Agrarianism in the United Federation of Planets
November 29, 2019 11:01 AM Subscribe
Dr. Sarah Taber on Star Trek: "time to talk about agrarianism in the United Federation of Planets". (Twitter thread, Thread Reader version)
Is corn still a platform in the future? How do the Picards have all that land for growing grapes? Who's the smartest person at Starfleet Academy, anyway?
Also, should've linked this previous FPP about Dr. Sarah Taber: Intersectional sustainable crop science, and GIFs.
posted by asperity at 11:19 AM on November 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by asperity at 11:19 AM on November 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
Really not entertaining any comments about how futuristic technology can make unlimited fresh water.
Asteroid/Comet mining.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 11:21 AM on November 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
Asteroid/Comet mining.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 11:21 AM on November 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
I always assumed all Earth farming in Star Trek was either experimental or a sort of historical preservation exercise. Because replicators.
(I do not count Red Matter Trek because no one should. The persistence of corn monocultures in that Trek was the LEAST of its problems).
posted by emjaybee at 11:22 AM on November 29, 2019 [13 favorites]
(I do not count Red Matter Trek because no one should. The persistence of corn monocultures in that Trek was the LEAST of its problems).
posted by emjaybee at 11:22 AM on November 29, 2019 [13 favorites]
Why is the Enterprise being built in Iowa and not in space? Where is all that tritanium runoff going? I’ll stick with replicator food.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 11:27 AM on November 29, 2019 [13 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 11:27 AM on November 29, 2019 [13 favorites]
Additional previous threads featuring Dr Taber:
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 11:28 AM on November 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
- "The food computers weren’t even deployed at the Azraq camp"
- Why we're all children of the corn now
- Power to the tiddies
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 11:28 AM on November 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
(My pet theory on the shipyard: The Enterprise is built in Riverside because it's just down the road from Iowa City. The Federation shipyard is a joint project with the United Federation of Planets and the University of Iowa to get access to a lot of cheap interns from the school.)
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 11:31 AM on November 29, 2019 [10 favorites]
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 11:31 AM on November 29, 2019 [10 favorites]
computer: plate of beans, hot.
posted by entropicamericana at 11:58 AM on November 29, 2019 [34 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 11:58 AM on November 29, 2019 [34 favorites]
Where is all that tritanium runoff going?
Surely any industrial plant runoff would just go in to traps that beam it for matter-energy reclamation? Transporters plus replicator tech surely makes waste disposal a doddle in the futur? If not it doesn't matter, there's no money so no one can claim compensation anyway.
posted by biffa at 12:12 PM on November 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
Surely any industrial plant runoff would just go in to traps that beam it for matter-energy reclamation? Transporters plus replicator tech surely makes waste disposal a doddle in the futur? If not it doesn't matter, there's no money so no one can claim compensation anyway.
posted by biffa at 12:12 PM on November 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
F the lensflare timeline. The Enterprise was not built in Riverside, Iowa. The Enterprise was built at the San Francisco Fleet Yards a Starfleet shipyard in Earth orbit.
posted by Rob Rockets at 12:25 PM on November 29, 2019 [32 favorites]
posted by Rob Rockets at 12:25 PM on November 29, 2019 [32 favorites]
People, replicator food is not organic. It's gonna be totally lacking in anti-oxidants, there's probably gluten in it, and everything these days is just packed with corn syrup.
posted by sexyrobot at 12:27 PM on November 29, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by sexyrobot at 12:27 PM on November 29, 2019 [4 favorites]
I love twitter bc my brain is so poisoned by it I wouldn't be able to read something that long in any other format at this point.
So if one wants to just wave plentiful fresh water away w "desalination," that means there are giant toxic dumps of brine somewhere. It's not very punk rock. Not very Federation. tl;dr water is a limited resource & the Picards are using it to mud wrestle out their issues 🤔
It does line up with the TNG episode where some scientists were like "Warp speed is destroying space" and everyone was like "No absolutely not, well maybe but we don't care haha bye" and also the episode that revealed that even in the far future Native Americans are still being forced off their land whenever their presence is inconvenient.
posted by bleep at 12:49 PM on November 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
So if one wants to just wave plentiful fresh water away w "desalination," that means there are giant toxic dumps of brine somewhere. It's not very punk rock. Not very Federation. tl;dr water is a limited resource & the Picards are using it to mud wrestle out their issues 🤔
It does line up with the TNG episode where some scientists were like "Warp speed is destroying space" and everyone was like "No absolutely not, well maybe but we don't care haha bye" and also the episode that revealed that even in the far future Native Americans are still being forced off their land whenever their presence is inconvenient.
posted by bleep at 12:49 PM on November 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
There's a lot of surprisingly regressive conservative ethics and values embedded in something we hold up as an idealized society. I'm also thinking about that time they put a commissioned officer on trial to determine if he was property or not (another great thread.) Basically I'm not surprised these fuckos are also fucking up the earth at the same time.
posted by bleep at 12:52 PM on November 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by bleep at 12:52 PM on November 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
F the lensflare timeline.
Thank you for my new band name!
(and, yes, i agree completely with the sentiment)
posted by Thorzdad at 1:11 PM on November 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
Thank you for my new band name!
(and, yes, i agree completely with the sentiment)
posted by Thorzdad at 1:11 PM on November 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
replicator food is not organic.
That's only because you're using the cheap "expert systems" autoscanned crap. If you dig deep into the food-interwebs, you can find artisanally-tweaked handmade replicator recopies, with individual atomic express placement (TM). You can have all the alpha-, beta-, gamma-, delta- and even epsilon-flavinoids. They even include quasi-matter essential mineraloids, that no "AI" based foodstuff can provide!
posted by bonehead at 1:12 PM on November 29, 2019 [10 favorites]
That's only because you're using the cheap "expert systems" autoscanned crap. If you dig deep into the food-interwebs, you can find artisanally-tweaked handmade replicator recopies, with individual atomic express placement (TM). You can have all the alpha-, beta-, gamma-, delta- and even epsilon-flavinoids. They even include quasi-matter essential mineraloids, that no "AI" based foodstuff can provide!
posted by bonehead at 1:12 PM on November 29, 2019 [10 favorites]
My last job was with an Engineering firm that specialized in Environmental Remediation (cleanup), including a multi-year project on a closed aerospace manufacturing facility (the amount of jet fuel spilled there was quite impressive). It's just good to know that my old company will still be operating - and profitable - in the 24th century. Because even in the luxury gay space communist future, there will still be good money in cleaning up after everything.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:24 PM on November 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:24 PM on November 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
So if one wants to just wave plentiful fresh water away w "desalination,"
So we're saying they have food Replicator tech, and they don't have water filtration and reconstitution tech? That's just weird. I mean, that's going to be vital for independent starships and stations.
Of course the damn Enterprise should be built in orbit, so the whole movie is weird.
There's a lot of surprisingly regressive conservative ethics and values embedded in something we hold up as an idealized society.
I don't think it was until the first couple seasons of Next Gen that the Federation was depicted as idealized--and they walked that back when they discovered that was just lethal to drama.
I think they tried to depict the Federation as better than current society. Hence why Kirk (actual Kirk, not the cartoon stereotype), was pretty much always a diplomat until his ship was in direct danger.
posted by happyroach at 1:26 PM on November 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
So we're saying they have food Replicator tech, and they don't have water filtration and reconstitution tech? That's just weird. I mean, that's going to be vital for independent starships and stations.
Of course the damn Enterprise should be built in orbit, so the whole movie is weird.
There's a lot of surprisingly regressive conservative ethics and values embedded in something we hold up as an idealized society.
I don't think it was until the first couple seasons of Next Gen that the Federation was depicted as idealized--and they walked that back when they discovered that was just lethal to drama.
I think they tried to depict the Federation as better than current society. Hence why Kirk (actual Kirk, not the cartoon stereotype), was pretty much always a diplomat until his ship was in direct danger.
posted by happyroach at 1:26 PM on November 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
Waste products are fortified with protomatter and fed to Borg cows
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:31 PM on November 29, 2019
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:31 PM on November 29, 2019
There is no money and thus no profit in the 24th century. There is only the assignment list provided by the technocracy.
posted by biffa at 1:36 PM on November 29, 2019
posted by biffa at 1:36 PM on November 29, 2019
SF is never really about space and the future, it's about the here and now. Which is why I like things like this that drive a wedge between our aspirations and our assumptions. Like, if we want gay space communism, we may have to give up some stuff we didn't expect.
Anyway, I like to think the Picard family are a bunch of historical reenactors and the Picard Vineyard is like Colonial Williamsburg. Robert is angry at Jean-Luc for leaving the family tradition of being, basically, carnies and theater people and going off to get a real job.
posted by Horkus at 1:40 PM on November 29, 2019 [43 favorites]
Anyway, I like to think the Picard family are a bunch of historical reenactors and the Picard Vineyard is like Colonial Williamsburg. Robert is angry at Jean-Luc for leaving the family tradition of being, basically, carnies and theater people and going off to get a real job.
posted by Horkus at 1:40 PM on November 29, 2019 [43 favorites]
I wonder if, in the TNG universe, land is considered post-scarcity as well because you can always fly off in a shuttle and colonize some other planet. Though in (fictitious) reality, that's just a bullshit excuse for preserving the status quo of the filthy aristocratic Picards.
It does give the maxim "property is theft" a certain extra heft when the only valuable property left is literal property.
posted by fatbird at 1:46 PM on November 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
It does give the maxim "property is theft" a certain extra heft when the only valuable property left is literal property.
posted by fatbird at 1:46 PM on November 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
My pet theory is that all experiences on Earth are just networked holodecks and everyone on earth are basically in little pods. Federation starships are mandated to display an idealized image of Earth from space - aliens can see it as the hellscape that it actually is.
posted by porpoise at 2:12 PM on November 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by porpoise at 2:12 PM on November 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
Desalinization is not a problem in Star Trek. Energy comes from antimatter, water goes to humans, residual salt gets eaten by salt vampires.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 2:36 PM on November 29, 2019 [28 favorites]
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 2:36 PM on November 29, 2019 [28 favorites]
Energy comes from antimatter, water goes to humans, residual salt gets eaten by salt vampires.
The circle of life.
posted by some loser at 3:19 PM on November 29, 2019 [9 favorites]
The circle of life.
posted by some loser at 3:19 PM on November 29, 2019 [9 favorites]
The real reason the UFP is anti-cloning is clone Elton John won the best original song Oscar every year from 2051-2094.
posted by biffa at 3:26 PM on November 29, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by biffa at 3:26 PM on November 29, 2019 [4 favorites]
computer, play some holiday music
posted by entropicamericana at 3:39 PM on November 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by entropicamericana at 3:39 PM on November 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
Man, I couldn't make it through this whole thing because every other sentence made me stop and go, "Wait, what? No." It seemed like it was written by someone who knows a lot about farming but was deeply confused about how just about everything in Star Trek works... including the fact that Picard's brother is clearly supposed to be a nasty bully, only showing a bit of human compassion at the end.
Biffa's comment raises an interesting point: in a society with no money, how do people get compensated in court cases? How does Starfleet compensate the families of all the unlucky redshirts?
posted by Ursula Hitler at 3:47 PM on November 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
Biffa's comment raises an interesting point: in a society with no money, how do people get compensated in court cases? How does Starfleet compensate the families of all the unlucky redshirts?
posted by Ursula Hitler at 3:47 PM on November 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
Biffa's comment raises an interesting point: in a society with no money, how do people get compensated in court cases? How does Starfleet compensate the families of all the unlucky redshirts?I assume they just replicate a new redshirt from the pattern buffers or something. It seems obvious, because otherwise with the 700-man crew on a five-year mission losing a few redshirts per week, they'd be down to Kirk and Spock taking every other shift on the way back.
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 3:54 PM on November 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
Biffa's comment raises an interesting point: in a society with no money, how do people get compensated in court cases? How does Starfleet compensate the families of all the unlucky redshirts?
There’s only one court case in Next Gen IIRC - where they seek to determine whether Data is a person or merely the property of StarFleet. If not, they are going to disassemble him for study, thereby killing him. The episode is called Measure of a Man.
It’s nonsensical for a number of reasons.
Firstly, Data must have been adjudged to be a person and a Federation citizen at least when he sought entry to StarFleet Academy. He’s been an officer for more than 20 years at that point. So it’s moot.
Secondly, there are no trained legal professionals? There’s a judge advocate general, but apparently such a shortage of lawyers that they make Riker represent the Let’s-Kill-Data side, without time for any preparation or regard for the conflict of interest. Riker is Data’s direct superior officer, and a personal friend. A professional prosecutor would have to recuse themselves. But he’s ordered to do it, to argue to murder his friend. Even on the biggest, most important ship in the fleet, there’s not a single legal officer. And no way to bring one out, even though it’s not a time sensitive matter and the plaintiff’s desire is to straight out dismember a senior officer.
Tl;dr there is no rule of law in Star Trek, the powerful prevail and they hold kangaroo courts to add a veneer of civilisation. The redshirt’s families get nothing - just a letter that says ‘soz, they knew the risks’.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:09 PM on November 29, 2019 [20 favorites]
There’s only one court case in Next Gen IIRC - where they seek to determine whether Data is a person or merely the property of StarFleet. If not, they are going to disassemble him for study, thereby killing him. The episode is called Measure of a Man.
It’s nonsensical for a number of reasons.
Firstly, Data must have been adjudged to be a person and a Federation citizen at least when he sought entry to StarFleet Academy. He’s been an officer for more than 20 years at that point. So it’s moot.
Secondly, there are no trained legal professionals? There’s a judge advocate general, but apparently such a shortage of lawyers that they make Riker represent the Let’s-Kill-Data side, without time for any preparation or regard for the conflict of interest. Riker is Data’s direct superior officer, and a personal friend. A professional prosecutor would have to recuse themselves. But he’s ordered to do it, to argue to murder his friend. Even on the biggest, most important ship in the fleet, there’s not a single legal officer. And no way to bring one out, even though it’s not a time sensitive matter and the plaintiff’s desire is to straight out dismember a senior officer.
Tl;dr there is no rule of law in Star Trek, the powerful prevail and they hold kangaroo courts to add a veneer of civilisation. The redshirt’s families get nothing - just a letter that says ‘soz, they knew the risks’.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:09 PM on November 29, 2019 [20 favorites]
I assume they just replicate a new redshirt from the pattern buffers or something. It seems obvious, because otherwise with the 700-man crew on a five-year mission losing a few redshirts per week, they'd be down to Kirk and Spock taking every other shift on the way back.
Weirdly, it’s canon that they can do this? Riker gets duplicated in a replicator accident. And Scotty stores himself in the pattern buffer for 80 years, to be reconstituted by the Next Gen crew. So it seems obvious that they could just run off a few more redshirts if they wanted. They probably have a ban on it, like they do with genetic engineering.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:12 PM on November 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
Weirdly, it’s canon that they can do this? Riker gets duplicated in a replicator accident. And Scotty stores himself in the pattern buffer for 80 years, to be reconstituted by the Next Gen crew. So it seems obvious that they could just run off a few more redshirts if they wanted. They probably have a ban on it, like they do with genetic engineering.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:12 PM on November 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
Guys I think I’ve watched too much Star Trek.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:13 PM on November 29, 2019 [26 favorites]
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:13 PM on November 29, 2019 [26 favorites]
There is no money and thus no profit in the 24th century. There is only the assignment list provided by the technocracy.
Yeah, sure, try telling that to the Ferrangi.
posted by kaibutsu at 4:21 PM on November 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
Yeah, sure, try telling that to the Ferrangi.
posted by kaibutsu at 4:21 PM on November 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
There’s only one court case in Next Gen IIRC ...
There are actually several more, including (stretching a bit), the very first episode, where Q puts Picard on trial for the crimes of humanity. Here are a few others:
The Drumhead
The First Duty
A Matter of Perspective
Devil's Due
Probably others, but definitely more than just The Measure of a Man.
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 4:23 PM on November 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
There are actually several more, including (stretching a bit), the very first episode, where Q puts Picard on trial for the crimes of humanity. Here are a few others:
The Drumhead
The First Duty
A Matter of Perspective
Devil's Due
Probably others, but definitely more than just The Measure of a Man.
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 4:23 PM on November 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
Probably others, but definitely more than just The Measure of a Man.
You’re quite right, although I wouldn’t count the Q one as it’s more Q doing legal cosplay.
There’s also a court scene in Voyager, in which 7 of 9 does some post traumatic false memory stuff. There’s another in which a copy of the Doctor is put on trial (several hundred years in the future of the show’s normal continuity) for Voyager’s historical crimes on a planet it has long since left behind. But that’s not the Federation’s court system.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:33 PM on November 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
You’re quite right, although I wouldn’t count the Q one as it’s more Q doing legal cosplay.
There’s also a court scene in Voyager, in which 7 of 9 does some post traumatic false memory stuff. There’s another in which a copy of the Doctor is put on trial (several hundred years in the future of the show’s normal continuity) for Voyager’s historical crimes on a planet it has long since left behind. But that’s not the Federation’s court system.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:33 PM on November 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
Has anyone considered that it's possible that in another timeline StarTrek is simply a TV show filmed in their own countryside and the show's producers are too cheap to think about stuff like "agrarianism" or "how can the Picards still be growing grapes" when they can just drop a film crew on a local vineyard for a couple of days - crazy I know but it could happen, even sounds like a Kirk 'Trek plot .... there might even be a rise of a nazi menace ...
posted by mbo at 4:38 PM on November 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by mbo at 4:38 PM on November 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
Has anyone considered that it's possible that in another timeline StarTrek is simply a TV show
Or... and hear me out here ‘cos it’s a bit wild... we’re completely aware that it’s just a show and we’re just having ...fun?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:44 PM on November 29, 2019 [16 favorites]
Or... and hear me out here ‘cos it’s a bit wild... we’re completely aware that it’s just a show and we’re just having ...fun?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:44 PM on November 29, 2019 [16 favorites]
Something like 600 million people died in WWIII and most of the world’s governments collapsed and also climate change canonically does not exist in the Star Trek universe, plus space colonies are a thing, so all that probably frees up a bunch of room on Earth.
Not to mention the fact that in the Star Trek universe they have successfully upzoned San Francisco, which is clearly the single most unbelievable thing about it.
posted by Automocar at 4:45 PM on November 29, 2019 [12 favorites]
Not to mention the fact that in the Star Trek universe they have successfully upzoned San Francisco, which is clearly the single most unbelievable thing about it.
posted by Automocar at 4:45 PM on November 29, 2019 [12 favorites]
I wonder if, in the TNG universe, land is considered post-scarcity as well because you can always fly off in a shuttle and colonize some other planet. Though in (fictitious) reality, that's just a bullshit excuse for preserving the status quo of the filthy aristocratic Picards.
This is not far from being canon. Remember Sub Rosa where Crusher's grandmother ends up living at a colony modeled after Scotland, all the way up to weather equipment to keep it nice and Scotlandy.
posted by Fukiyama at 5:06 PM on November 29, 2019 [4 favorites]
This is not far from being canon. Remember Sub Rosa where Crusher's grandmother ends up living at a colony modeled after Scotland, all the way up to weather equipment to keep it nice and Scotlandy.
posted by Fukiyama at 5:06 PM on November 29, 2019 [4 favorites]
Not to mention the fact that in the Star Trek universe they have successfully upzoned San Francisco, which is clearly the single most unbelievable thing about it.
no, the fact that they've upzoned marin is clearly the most unrealistic thing about it. san francisco is distant second, just a hair above ftl travel
posted by entropicamericana at 5:20 PM on November 29, 2019 [9 favorites]
no, the fact that they've upzoned marin is clearly the most unrealistic thing about it. san francisco is distant second, just a hair above ftl travel
posted by entropicamericana at 5:20 PM on November 29, 2019 [9 favorites]
Sarah Taber is brilliant.
posted by wormwood23 at 5:58 PM on November 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by wormwood23 at 5:58 PM on November 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
Or... and hear me out here ‘cos it’s a bit wild... we’re completely aware that it’s just a show and we’re just having ...fun
It's the day after the MST3K Turkey Day marathon, so you should really just relax (and have a hamdinger and cancel your Netflix).
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:07 PM on November 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
It's the day after the MST3K Turkey Day marathon, so you should really just relax (and have a hamdinger and cancel your Netflix).
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:07 PM on November 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
First: I *loved* the plumbers digression. And the agrarian farmer aesthetic in Trek does need mocking, so all for that.
But I had trouble getting on board for the whole thing. Or more precisely I got on board multiple times then fell off over and over. Kind of feel like if your going to invest that much in in-world sci-fi problems you need to at least play with sci-fi solutions,
High temperatures and crop rotation presumably not a problem for super GMO corn. And the amount of fresh water you need to add to the water cycle to have plenty is a miniscule fraction of ocean water, which means net salinity increase is minimal. The idea of taking all the water from *one place* and ending up with concentrated brine is unimaginative.
I didn't read the comments on land use and cultural preservation, but it makes sense. I assume the problem was people were arguing preserving stuff was"good" when to me the obvious implication is that agriculture was preserved (or after the Eugenics Wars recreated) by small-c conservative elites, the same ones who really love Shakespeare, Moby Dick, and bonsai. Which is why you don't get disruptive Incan farming recreated that would actually empower people. Star Trek is nothing if not a full embrace of the meritocratic elites. Farming land is not wealth but silliness, and goes to people based not on primogeniture but on willingness to cosplay farmer.
posted by mark k at 6:27 PM on November 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
But I had trouble getting on board for the whole thing. Or more precisely I got on board multiple times then fell off over and over. Kind of feel like if your going to invest that much in in-world sci-fi problems you need to at least play with sci-fi solutions,
High temperatures and crop rotation presumably not a problem for super GMO corn. And the amount of fresh water you need to add to the water cycle to have plenty is a miniscule fraction of ocean water, which means net salinity increase is minimal. The idea of taking all the water from *one place* and ending up with concentrated brine is unimaginative.
I didn't read the comments on land use and cultural preservation, but it makes sense. I assume the problem was people were arguing preserving stuff was"good" when to me the obvious implication is that agriculture was preserved (or after the Eugenics Wars recreated) by small-c conservative elites, the same ones who really love Shakespeare, Moby Dick, and bonsai. Which is why you don't get disruptive Incan farming recreated that would actually empower people. Star Trek is nothing if not a full embrace of the meritocratic elites. Farming land is not wealth but silliness, and goes to people based not on primogeniture but on willingness to cosplay farmer.
posted by mark k at 6:27 PM on November 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
TBH I felt like the thread was way more interesting in terms of the stuff I learned about our actual world than the Star Trek stuff which was more of a hook.
posted by bleep at 6:31 PM on November 29, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by bleep at 6:31 PM on November 29, 2019 [9 favorites]
Has anyone considered that it's possible that in another timeline StarTrek is simply a TV show...See above RE: SF is not about the future, it's about us.
TBH I felt like the thread was way more interesting in terms of the stuff I learned about our actual world than the Star Trek stuff which was more of a hook.This.
posted by Horkus at 6:34 PM on November 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
I'm dying over this gem:
Star Trek economy is "fully automated luxury gay space communism" in the streets,
"UBI gone horribly wrong neofeudal patronage nightmare" in the sheets.
posted by justkevin at 7:03 PM on November 29, 2019 [14 favorites]
Star Trek economy is "fully automated luxury gay space communism" in the streets,
"UBI gone horribly wrong neofeudal patronage nightmare" in the sheets.
posted by justkevin at 7:03 PM on November 29, 2019 [14 favorites]
She mentions these precolonial systems that could be depicted as part of a futuristic Star Trek context:
- Agroforestry
- Prairie + patchy farms
- Fire-managed forest
- Chinampas & other managed wetlands
They're all cool ways of land managment and food production. I think United Earth would be advanced enough to acknowledge the fact that most of the ecosystems in the Americas were managed by indigenous peoples, and place great importance on their restoration as a source of biodiversity and affirmation of those cultural practices. Probably a better fit for alternative history or near future fiction. Or just plain reality.
posted by Mister Cheese at 9:17 PM on November 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
- Agroforestry
- Prairie + patchy farms
- Fire-managed forest
- Chinampas & other managed wetlands
They're all cool ways of land managment and food production. I think United Earth would be advanced enough to acknowledge the fact that most of the ecosystems in the Americas were managed by indigenous peoples, and place great importance on their restoration as a source of biodiversity and affirmation of those cultural practices. Probably a better fit for alternative history or near future fiction. Or just plain reality.
posted by Mister Cheese at 9:17 PM on November 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
it's good practice for looking critically at how a society portrays itself vs what's really going on, especially re: agriculture
Mostly it seems to be a good example of confirmation bias. Like, so much about Trek here is just wrong, in ways that kind of suggest a willful misread of the franchise for the sake of snark. I keep being tempted to go point by point, but it'd be like taking arms against an army of straw men.
And, to show that while I am a Trekkie I'm hardly blind to the actual faults in the franchise: the "gay space communism" meme thing has got to go. Space, sure. Communist? Maybe if you're Sen. McCarthy. And, where are the actual LGBT people? Garak leering at Bashir doesn't count, and neither does your slashfic. Trek was notorious for depicting a future with almost no confirmed LGBT characters, so calling it "gay space communism" is giving credit where it isn't due.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 9:47 PM on November 29, 2019 [8 favorites]
Mostly it seems to be a good example of confirmation bias. Like, so much about Trek here is just wrong, in ways that kind of suggest a willful misread of the franchise for the sake of snark. I keep being tempted to go point by point, but it'd be like taking arms against an army of straw men.
And, to show that while I am a Trekkie I'm hardly blind to the actual faults in the franchise: the "gay space communism" meme thing has got to go. Space, sure. Communist? Maybe if you're Sen. McCarthy. And, where are the actual LGBT people? Garak leering at Bashir doesn't count, and neither does your slashfic. Trek was notorious for depicting a future with almost no confirmed LGBT characters, so calling it "gay space communism" is giving credit where it isn't due.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 9:47 PM on November 29, 2019 [8 favorites]
The episode is called Measure of a Man. It’s nonsensical for a number of reasons.
Legal Eagle did a breakdown of the episode, as part of his youtube series analyzing the legal realism of various TV shows and movies.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 9:50 PM on November 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
Legal Eagle did a breakdown of the episode, as part of his youtube series analyzing the legal realism of various TV shows and movies.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 9:50 PM on November 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
Ursula, I guess you haven't been watching "Discovery"?
posted by ambulocetus at 10:07 PM on November 29, 2019
posted by ambulocetus at 10:07 PM on November 29, 2019
I feel like we have the same Automated Gay Space Communism discussion every time Trek comes up on the blue, and I don't feel like looking up my previous comments in other threads, so:
1) Replicators can't replicate everything; they can't do certain strategic elements (which is why there's a latinum-based money economy outside the Federation), they can't reproduce living beings (although gagh may be an exception; living, sentient people get Xeroxed only under really weird circumstances), and they can't make things over the size of about a walk-in closet. I'm also pretty sure that replicators can't make replicators, again with very specific exceptions (the self-replicating mines in DS9).
2) The Federation doesn't have infinite or effectively-infinite energy, possibly because so much of it goes to making antimatter for starships, another strategic material. That's why Bajor spent the first few years of its independence working on reclaiming farmed-out soil to grow crops instead of the Federation just giving everyone a replicator (and in one ep, Kira kicks a farmer off his moon because they need that for an energy plant of some sort).
3) There isn't replicator technology as such in the 23rd century, although DSC shows relatively rapid food and clothing synthesis; that's something that Taber gets wrong early on.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:06 AM on November 30, 2019 [2 favorites]
1) Replicators can't replicate everything; they can't do certain strategic elements (which is why there's a latinum-based money economy outside the Federation), they can't reproduce living beings (although gagh may be an exception; living, sentient people get Xeroxed only under really weird circumstances), and they can't make things over the size of about a walk-in closet. I'm also pretty sure that replicators can't make replicators, again with very specific exceptions (the self-replicating mines in DS9).
2) The Federation doesn't have infinite or effectively-infinite energy, possibly because so much of it goes to making antimatter for starships, another strategic material. That's why Bajor spent the first few years of its independence working on reclaiming farmed-out soil to grow crops instead of the Federation just giving everyone a replicator (and in one ep, Kira kicks a farmer off his moon because they need that for an energy plant of some sort).
3) There isn't replicator technology as such in the 23rd century, although DSC shows relatively rapid food and clothing synthesis; that's something that Taber gets wrong early on.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:06 AM on November 30, 2019 [2 favorites]
Ursula, I guess you haven't been watching "Discovery"?
No, I haven't. We just got CBS All Access as part of a Roku deal, so I plan to catch up. Does the show feature LGBT characters? Great... although, given the lack of openly LGBT characters in all of the other shows, that unfortunately implies that there were LGBT people in the Discovery era but they all mysteriously went away by the time of Kirk and they never came back. (In fairness to the Trek I grew up with, even if they never showed LGBT characters they did at least manage to make it clear at various points that homophobia was no longer a thing.)
posted by Ursula Hitler at 1:34 AM on November 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
No, I haven't. We just got CBS All Access as part of a Roku deal, so I plan to catch up. Does the show feature LGBT characters? Great... although, given the lack of openly LGBT characters in all of the other shows, that unfortunately implies that there were LGBT people in the Discovery era but they all mysteriously went away by the time of Kirk and they never came back. (In fairness to the Trek I grew up with, even if they never showed LGBT characters they did at least manage to make it clear at various points that homophobia was no longer a thing.)
posted by Ursula Hitler at 1:34 AM on November 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
They did what they could within the parameters set by NBC standards and practices during TOS and what the (largely second-tier, largely more rural than average) stations paying for first run syndication rights would tolerate during TNG and DS9. There were several episodes of TNG and DS9 that my local store refused to air for whatever reason. I only got to see them at the time because of Grandpa's satellite dish and fancy new receiver that could schedule dish moves in advance so the VCR could record even if he was out plowing his garden when the satellite feed aired on Saturday afternoons. (My local station was a week and a free hours behind, making it extra interesting..)
posted by wierdo at 1:52 AM on November 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by wierdo at 1:52 AM on November 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
Good news, Ursula Hitler! I only watched most of the first season, but Discovery has a gay doctor and his engineer partner in lead roles - they even kiss onscreen.
posted by Lizard at 7:15 AM on November 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Lizard at 7:15 AM on November 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
While we're on the subject, Sulu is shown to have a male partner, and they have a child together, in the most recent film.
posted by biffa at 8:56 AM on November 30, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by biffa at 8:56 AM on November 30, 2019 [2 favorites]
The "gay" in "fully automated luxury gay space communism" isn't meant to be taken literally. (For that matter, neither is the "space".) It's just a flippant way of saying "post-scarcity utopianism, enabled by equitable application of technology".
So, a society needn't even be spaceborne to qualify as gay space communism. (It can argued that the society does need to be enlightened on LGBT issues, but only because that's a prerequisite for an equitable society - not because the word "gay" appears in the phrase.)
posted by escape from the potato planet at 9:53 AM on November 30, 2019 [2 favorites]
So, a society needn't even be spaceborne to qualify as gay space communism. (It can argued that the society does need to be enlightened on LGBT issues, but only because that's a prerequisite for an equitable society - not because the word "gay" appears in the phrase.)
posted by escape from the potato planet at 9:53 AM on November 30, 2019 [2 favorites]
What this tells me is that there's benefit to having scientific advisors who are specialists in agriculture, and that drinking and tweeting don't mix.
posted by ZeusHumms at 12:42 PM on November 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by ZeusHumms at 12:42 PM on November 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
Star Trek is nothing if not a full embrace of the meritocratic elites. Farming land is not wealth but silliness, and goes to people based not on primogeniture but on willingness to cosplay farmer.
I think I agree with your first point but not on where you go from there. ST is meritocratic, and the Federation worships those who are seen to have achieved its highest positions, but maybe the way that is reflected is that the people in those positions get dibs on scarce items that there is no other way to apportion. There are only a singular number of quality wine growing regions, and if they don't go to the highest bidder, because there is no money to bid then how do they decide who gets them? Reflection of merit seems the only way.
We've seen Starfleet personnel glorify rare alcohol in every iteration of the show, so it would fit with that also.
The remaining question is why does the Federation (or its humans anyway) revere ownership of particular resources? Well that could be anything, its no more ridiculous to put asocial value on a rare historical value than a financial value on black tulips or other goods in a capitalist system.
Perhaps Jean Luc only went into Starfleet in order to maintain familial position such that they could keep hold of the vineyard. Maybe that's why his brother resents him?
posted by biffa at 3:29 PM on November 30, 2019
I think I agree with your first point but not on where you go from there. ST is meritocratic, and the Federation worships those who are seen to have achieved its highest positions, but maybe the way that is reflected is that the people in those positions get dibs on scarce items that there is no other way to apportion. There are only a singular number of quality wine growing regions, and if they don't go to the highest bidder, because there is no money to bid then how do they decide who gets them? Reflection of merit seems the only way.
We've seen Starfleet personnel glorify rare alcohol in every iteration of the show, so it would fit with that also.
The remaining question is why does the Federation (or its humans anyway) revere ownership of particular resources? Well that could be anything, its no more ridiculous to put asocial value on a rare historical value than a financial value on black tulips or other goods in a capitalist system.
Perhaps Jean Luc only went into Starfleet in order to maintain familial position such that they could keep hold of the vineyard. Maybe that's why his brother resents him?
posted by biffa at 3:29 PM on November 30, 2019
Discovery has a gay doctor and his engineer partner in lead roles - they even kiss onscreen.
Nonspecific spoilers.
As far as representation goes, it's also notable that both these characters were also played by openly gay actors, which is somewhat heartening. On the other hand, even if the showrunners and writers always were intending to undo the apparent "bury your gays" storyline that they ran in the first season, it made me feel very unhappy and uncomfortable, and I still feel that it mars the show overall, despite the (somewhat sporadic?) efforts that have so far been made to give the repercussions of the apparent death and subsequent return.
Given that I am interested enough in the show to write the paragraph above, this comment should be taken as a recommendation to watch it (apart from anything else I think it has the best acting and direction of any Trek show), but it's not a perfectly smooth ride. I guess sometimes it feels like the writers want to demonstrate their (undoubted) cleverness by outsmarting the audience, which doesn't feel like a very Trek thing. It reminds me of the line Chesterton puts in Father Brown: "Real mystics don't hide mysteries, they reveal them. They set a thing up in broad daylight, and when you've seen it it's still a mystery. But the mystagogues hide a thing in darkness and secrecy, and when you find it, it's a platitude". It feels like, at its best, Star Trek in general is like Chesterton's idea of a mystic: it introduces you to a new idea in a vital and lucid way, and the puzzle comes out of the idea's implications. There are occasions when Discovery feels like there is some very clever mystagoguery going on: the puzzle is more in spotting the techniques the narrative is using to confound you. Neither is necessarily worse, but the former feels more in the fundamental spirit of the show.
Which all sounds very harsh for a show I think is very good, with episodes that are genuinely among the very best Star Trek ever made. I think that the consistent effort and skill of the actors helps ameliorate those times when the writers are too clever for their own good. Also I'm possibly being too harsh on the writers, who often seem to be trying to cram the ~55 minutes of content expected from the sort of show Discovery needs to be into the ~45 minutes of show its usually allowed.
posted by howfar at 3:35 PM on November 30, 2019 [3 favorites]
Nonspecific spoilers.
As far as representation goes, it's also notable that both these characters were also played by openly gay actors, which is somewhat heartening. On the other hand, even if the showrunners and writers always were intending to undo the apparent "bury your gays" storyline that they ran in the first season, it made me feel very unhappy and uncomfortable, and I still feel that it mars the show overall, despite the (somewhat sporadic?) efforts that have so far been made to give the repercussions of the apparent death and subsequent return.
Given that I am interested enough in the show to write the paragraph above, this comment should be taken as a recommendation to watch it (apart from anything else I think it has the best acting and direction of any Trek show), but it's not a perfectly smooth ride. I guess sometimes it feels like the writers want to demonstrate their (undoubted) cleverness by outsmarting the audience, which doesn't feel like a very Trek thing. It reminds me of the line Chesterton puts in Father Brown: "Real mystics don't hide mysteries, they reveal them. They set a thing up in broad daylight, and when you've seen it it's still a mystery. But the mystagogues hide a thing in darkness and secrecy, and when you find it, it's a platitude". It feels like, at its best, Star Trek in general is like Chesterton's idea of a mystic: it introduces you to a new idea in a vital and lucid way, and the puzzle comes out of the idea's implications. There are occasions when Discovery feels like there is some very clever mystagoguery going on: the puzzle is more in spotting the techniques the narrative is using to confound you. Neither is necessarily worse, but the former feels more in the fundamental spirit of the show.
Which all sounds very harsh for a show I think is very good, with episodes that are genuinely among the very best Star Trek ever made. I think that the consistent effort and skill of the actors helps ameliorate those times when the writers are too clever for their own good. Also I'm possibly being too harsh on the writers, who often seem to be trying to cram the ~55 minutes of content expected from the sort of show Discovery needs to be into the ~45 minutes of show its usually allowed.
posted by howfar at 3:35 PM on November 30, 2019 [3 favorites]
The "gay" in "fully automated luxury gay space communism" isn't meant to be taken literally. (For that matter, neither is the "space".) It's just a flippant way of saying "post-scarcity utopianism, enabled by equitable application of technology".
Hey, this comment is a bummer and is also an example of a larger pattern. People work for years to increase queer representation and then get a tiny bit of it. Then other people come in and say "No, that's not really queer, the mention of queerness is metaphorical/not real/unimportant." I don't know if you are doing this deliberately, but the denial of queerness in queer things is a type of homophobia.
The name we are discussing has the word gay in it. That actually means it is gay.
posted by medusa at 10:39 AM on December 10, 2019 [2 favorites]
Hey, this comment is a bummer and is also an example of a larger pattern. People work for years to increase queer representation and then get a tiny bit of it. Then other people come in and say "No, that's not really queer, the mention of queerness is metaphorical/not real/unimportant." I don't know if you are doing this deliberately, but the denial of queerness in queer things is a type of homophobia.
The name we are discussing has the word gay in it. That actually means it is gay.
posted by medusa at 10:39 AM on December 10, 2019 [2 favorites]
Not at all a joke: I thought "fully automated luxury gay space communism" was a reference to the Culture, not Star Trek. TNG mmmaybe works as an early stepping stone to the Culture/FALGSC, but with a lot of cultural hangover from scarcity days.
which, hey, maybe that's why the farming practices are so bad; you don't see any goddamned corn monoculture on a GSV
posted by COBRA! at 11:14 AM on December 10, 2019 [2 favorites]
which, hey, maybe that's why the farming practices are so bad; you don't see any goddamned corn monoculture on a GSV
posted by COBRA! at 11:14 AM on December 10, 2019 [2 favorites]
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I'm hoping there's a nested response somewhere about the Deep Space Nine episode Paradise, because I'm not sure it supports the general thesis about farming being portrayed positively. Except where it does.
posted by asperity at 11:07 AM on November 29, 2019 [1 favorite]