I've got red in my ledger, I'd like to wipe it out
December 3, 2019 2:01 AM   Subscribe

Marvel Studios' Black Widow teaser trailer is out now, starring Scarlett Johansson as Natasha Romanoff/Black Widow, alongside David Harbour, Florence Pugh, O-T Fagbenle, and Rachel Weisz, with the same cinematographer as Mission: Impossible – Fallout. And no, she hasn't been resurrected (yet); the story takes place after Captain America: Civil War and before Avengers: Infinity War.
posted by adrianhon (81 comments total) 7 users marked this as a favorite
 
I am really really happy and i am going to watch this twice even if it turned out not very good.
Natasha deserved better than Infinity War.
posted by thegirlwiththehat at 2:35 AM on December 3, 2019 [14 favorites]


I had little interest in this - the character deserved better along the way and now it feels too little too late - but I'll see it just for Chief Hopper as Russian superhero.
posted by kokaku at 2:51 AM on December 3, 2019 [2 favorites]


I'm modestly excited? After Endgame I'm feeling a certain amount of major-spectacle-superhero-burnout; I feel like since the first Ant-Man the formula has gotten familiar enough that I can kind of see the movie without seeing the movie.

I've enjoyed all the Marvel movies, but recently (except for Black Panther) it's started to resonate more like a palette swap on a game I enjoy playing than a fresh new experience.

Coulda done without the fat jokes (spoken and physical), though.
posted by Shepherd at 2:52 AM on December 3, 2019 [9 favorites]


I did have a moment of "they saved Chief Hopper, he got supepowers LEGITIMATE CROSSOVER". I know it will not happen, but that is my head canon now.
posted by thegirlwiththehat at 3:24 AM on December 3, 2019 [10 favorites]


According to the internet, Florence Pugh is going to be the next Black Widow, and I'm very much on board with that. She was excellent in The Little Drummer Girl and Midsommar.
posted by jklaiho at 3:34 AM on December 3, 2019 [2 favorites]


This is the first MCU film solo directed by a woman.
posted by octothorpe at 3:59 AM on December 3, 2019 [22 favorites]


Back before Infinity War, I hoped that if they ever did a Black Widow movie, it'd be relatively cagey super-spies.

This is... not that.

This doesn't get over my 'I'm sick of these movies' threshhold; I'm much more curious to find out what Patty Jenkins is doing with Wonder Woman.
posted by Merus at 4:01 AM on December 3, 2019 [4 favorites]


Holy shit this looks really good, I'm there!

But yeah, Nat should be hugely noted for the sacrifice she made, that enabled Tony Stark and the others do their thing.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:22 AM on December 3, 2019 [1 favorite]


I really wished this looked less boring - Marvel, did you have to do the 'you got fat' joke again? And it slots into a time where we know Black Widow didn't really change much. (Like, imagine that this took place during the snapture, it's suddenly a lot more interesting). I'll watch it, but I'm keeping my expectations low.

Mostly it's killing me that if they had actually announced/released this movie between civil war and infinity war, I would have been so much more excited about it! They had it pretty easy.
posted by dinty_moore at 4:42 AM on December 3, 2019 [10 favorites]


The voiceover dialogue in the trailer is kinda stale, but that flying kick into the door was great. So I guess I know what the priorities for marketing are.
posted by Richard Daly at 5:01 AM on December 3, 2019


Mostly it's killing me that if they had actually announced/released this movie between civil war and infinity war, I would have been so much more excited about it!

Or even following Winter Soldier. BW did a bunch with Cap in that movie and it showed her maneuvering in public using spy techniques and whatnot.

David Harbour and Rachel Weisz caught my interest, though, so I'll go see it.
posted by Fleebnork at 5:28 AM on December 3, 2019 [1 favorite]


I know it's just a teaser but it looks like a random mess of generic action scenes.
posted by octothorpe at 5:29 AM on December 3, 2019


Taskmaster: "Anything you can do, I can do better!"
Hero: "Can you copy my Rad BMX Boi look?"
Taskmaster: X-TREEM!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:31 AM on December 3, 2019 [4 favorites]


Imagine being Scarlett Johansson and seeing them make two Ant-Man movies before they give you one. Two! It's like, "Well, hey, I know your character is dead now, but here you go. Thanks for being cool about it"

"Yeah, great. Listen, why can't I just be Black Panther?"

"[laughing nervously]"
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:32 AM on December 3, 2019 [14 favorites]


Marvel, you can't give us a member of the Winter Guard without also giving us Ursa Major, drunken bear-man.
posted by jason_steakums at 5:40 AM on December 3, 2019 [4 favorites]


I know it's just a teaser but it looks like a random mess of generic action scenes.

With the caveat that I'm not the target market for this as someone who isn't a big fan of superhero movies, this was exactly my reaction to the trailer.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:59 AM on December 3, 2019


As long as it's better than Red Sparrow, it'll be fine. (Yes, I know how low that bar is.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:18 AM on December 3, 2019


I'd probably have been pretty excited both about this movie and about Valkyrie being an out lesbian as recently as 2017.
posted by kyrademon at 6:21 AM on December 3, 2019 [1 favorite]


1. The trailer makes the movie look boring as fuck, a cookie cutter re-packaging of the same tired tropes.
2. "You got fat" can go fuck itself.
3. Scarlett Johansson can go fuck herself. (previously on MeFi)
posted by lazaruslong at 6:24 AM on December 3, 2019 [8 favorites]


I want to see Scarlett Johansson in a remake of Ghost World.
posted by Bee'sWing at 6:24 AM on December 3, 2019 [4 favorites]


Marvel, did you have to do the 'you got fat' joke again?
@aedison: Marvel has one joke, and it’s, “What if a man was fat?”
This looks like a weird mash-up of spy thriller set in Europe and Marvel action spectacle. I kind of liked the music though.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 6:33 AM on December 3, 2019


Marvel, you can't give us a member of the Winter Guard without also giving us Ursa Major, drunken bear-man.

So one of the things I was thinking about while watching this trailer was the 2016 movie Guardians, where the romantic lead was a werebear with a machine gun. It's a Russian take on the Avengers, pretty much - and while it's not good, it's interesting to see the same tropes filtered through a different cultural lens. Anyway there's a character in there that's supposed to be a highly competent woman, but her magical power seems to be looking sympathetic while men spill their entire backstory to her (not actually her magical power, but she spends half of the movie doing just that).

Which, look, weaponize that and it's a pretty interesting take on Black Widow - one that's in line with the earlier MCU takes on her.

One of the things about Black Widow as a character that I think Winter Soldier got right is that she's more interesting when she's acting like a normal human being, then goes full super spy action. Have her order some fucking soup and sit down, and you're wondering what she's up to. You're thinking about how she ordered soup, what character is she playing? Maybe Florence Pugh is sitting across from her. The Russian accent comes out with 'Hello Sister' - oh shit. Cut to the action scenes; they're now more exciting.

It's a trailer, maybe the movie will be more in line with what I want. But again, not getting my hopes up.

Or even following Winter Soldier. BW did a bunch with Cap in that movie and it showed her maneuvering in public using spy techniques and whatnot.

I'd even take it being set right after Winter Soldier - she was sort of set up to continue growing/doing something interesting at the end of that movie, and it never happened.

Scarlett Johannson is also a lot harder to support as a female lead than she was in 2012-2014, you know, given how she is absolutely terrible about taking whitewashed parts, yes.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:19 AM on December 3, 2019 [5 favorites]


As long as it's better than Red Sparrow, it'll be fine.


YOU SENT ME TO WHORE SCHOOL!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 7:25 AM on December 3, 2019 [5 favorites]


As long as it's better than Red Sparrow, it'll be fine. (Yes, I know how low that bar is.)

New Trailer Proves Red Sparrow Is the Best Black Widow Movie We're Probably Ever Going to Get [YouTube]
posted by octothorpe at 7:46 AM on December 3, 2019 [1 favorite]


I will never forget my buddy's lack of enthusiasm when the first big Spider Man film was released (Raimi, 2002). This, on the heels of LOTR (Fellowship, and Two Towers released the same year).

Looking back I have to appreciate his prescience. He could see the industry gears spinning as CGI, consolidating media interests, and a certain approach to leisure and mass culture were poised to bring this perfect orgy of spectacle to fruition. Back then I thought he was a bit of a grinch but now.. boy do I get it.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:56 AM on December 3, 2019 [2 favorites]


Ever since Wonder Woman scratched an itch I didn't know I had, despite its flaws, I pretty much am just for any representation I can get.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:07 AM on December 3, 2019 [6 favorites]


This very much feels like too little too late. Not that anyone should really care about whether a movie fits in a corporate slate or not, but this feels like an odd movie to make part of your Marvel Phase 2 or whatever it's called, since it seems like a lot of the new movies will be about introducing a new set of heroes or recontextualizing old ones.

Bringing out a Scarlett Johansson Black Widow movie in 2020 feels wildly out of step, like reanimating a dinosaur fossil. I suppose it's possible Marvel will actually have something interesting to say about a character that no longer has any plot relevance in a meta-franchise that privileges plot above all else, but I'm not holding my breath.

(Also I would be concerned that my last paragraph is a spoiler, but then there's an even more obvious version of that spoiler in the FPP so I'm assuming we're okay with that here? Genuine question, just want to know the parameters for discussion.)
posted by chrominance at 8:10 AM on December 3, 2019 [3 favorites]


It's really weird that not only is it an after-the-fact Black Widow movie but they didn't even go to prequel territory -- I can understand a flashback to pre-Iron Man 2 times a lot more readily than setting it between Civil War and, uh, whatever came right after Civil War. And that also makes it more frustrating that they're not making the Black Widow movie I actually want to see, where she leads an interstellar, majority-female Avengers team for five years after Cap and Tony retire to private life.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:15 AM on December 3, 2019 [9 favorites]


The setting of this seems to automatically give this movie pretty low stakes. I mean we know she doesn't die and we know that nothing will really change since we've seen multiple movies after the time that this one is set in.
posted by octothorpe at 8:27 AM on December 3, 2019 [1 favorite]


I wonder if this is based on the Edmonson/Noto BW storyline? Time will tell I suppose.
posted by fiercekitten at 8:30 AM on December 3, 2019 [1 favorite]


I think that it's likely to set up both the new Black Widow and Taskmaster as a villain or trainer of the Thunderbolts or whatever.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:32 AM on December 3, 2019


The big "change" is letting Natasha retroactively pass her electric baton to Florence Pugh as Yelena Belova, yeah. Taskmaster is a fun bonus.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:34 AM on December 3, 2019 [1 favorite]


What I appreciate is that there was a scene with three women in it. In the trailer. OK none of them were non-white, and even the "old" one (Rachel Weisz) is gorgeous, but it's something.
posted by suelac at 8:39 AM on December 3, 2019 [11 favorites]


The trailer passes the Bechdel Test, and there's archery, and it's directed by a woman, and I have a soft spot for those Eastern European apartment buildings with the high ceilings and tall windows, so: I am very much looking forward to it.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:51 AM on December 3, 2019 [12 favorites]


I'm definitely up for ladies in action mode, so this will be a go for me. It's definitely a movie that should have come out earlier, but while I'm irritated that Marvel never got around to it, it doesn't bother me to contemplate seeing it now. I also would have preferred a prequel but oh, well.* The cast looks great. I didn't realize they were going to set up a "new" Black Widow, but I'm game for that and Florence Pugh seems like a good pick for the role. I've only read a few of the BW comics but the Edmonson/Noto storyline was really good (and god, I love Noto's art) so I'm interested in them drawing from that.

*Listen, I know people hate Hawkeye, but one of my favorite tropes is fraught knife-fighting and another favorite trope is hope out of hopelessness, and Avengers delivered it and I imprinted on the two of them and wrote a bunch of fic and then they went and screwed it all up in later movies but whatever. It would be awesome seeing a pre-Avengers storyline where Hawkeye brings her into SHIELD and it's all about their relationship but I know I'm the cheese that stands mostly alone here. I have fic to sustain me, I understand.
posted by PussKillian at 9:30 AM on December 3, 2019 [5 favorites]


It would be awesome seeing a pre-Avengers storyline where Hawkeye brings her into SHIELD and it's all about their relationship but I know I'm the cheese that stands mostly alone here.

Yeah but WandaVision is coming, which is both terrifying and...ok, just terrifying.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:37 AM on December 3, 2019 [1 favorite]


"Are we going to talk like grown-ups now?"
"Is that what we are?"

Just for a second there, I thought the other woman in that scene was Villanelle from Killing Eve - or at least, the actress who plays her doing a similar schtick. That would have been fun, right?
posted by Paul Slade at 9:48 AM on December 3, 2019 [4 favorites]


I am glad that I am not the only one that had a momentary disconnect by thinking it was Villanelle. JFC, that would launch an EXPLOSION of fanfic.
posted by Ber at 10:20 AM on December 3, 2019


Johansson has recently leveled up on being awful and unsupportable, by doubling down on her stanning for Woody Allen.
posted by ursus_comiter at 10:24 AM on December 3, 2019 [3 favorites]


Listen, I know people hate Hawkeye, but one of my favorite tropes is fraught knife-fighting and another favorite trope is hope out of hopelessness, and Avengers delivered it and I imprinted on the two of them and wrote a bunch of fic and then they went and screwed it all up in later movies but whatever. It would be awesome seeing a pre-Avengers storyline where Hawkeye brings her into SHIELD and it's all about their relationship but I know I'm the cheese that stands mostly alone here. I have fic to sustain me, I understand.

I mean, I personally still love Hawkeye the comic book character enough to be okay with him getting some better characterization (though I'd prefer it without Jeremy Renner, speaking of unsupportable people). And for once I'd be down with an origin story: most Marvel origin stories have to deal with this normal person becoming a superhero, and Black Widow's is about a superhero learning how to be a normal person (which is why her acting like a normal person is interesting! It's like Thor acting like a normal person). I can't get enough of that dynamic, especially when it's in an odd couple/buddy cop format. I'd be a little worried that it might be too close to Captain Marvel, but there are worse things to copy than the Danvers/Fury dynamic, and they could make it self referential - Fury reacts to one of his underlings getting their own murder lady, glares at Goose as if it's his fault.

So yeah, I'd be down for a prequel, too.

From what I remember of the Edmonson/Noto run, there isn't much to suggest that it's based on that? Though it's been years since I read it - and I mostly remember the first few issues being some interesting one-offs and then cycling through some partnerships with her exes. I still recommend reading it though!
posted by dinty_moore at 10:50 AM on December 3, 2019 [2 favorites]


I want my Squirrel Girl movie, dammit!!
posted by Pendragon at 10:56 AM on December 3, 2019 [15 favorites]


Maybe it will be more fun if I imagine it came out right after Winter Soldier but I somehow never got around to seeing it until...whenever I see it.
posted by straight at 11:12 AM on December 3, 2019 [2 favorites]


Listen, I know people hate Hawkeye, but one of my favorite tropes is fraught knife-fighting and another favorite trope is hope out of hopelessness, and Avengers delivered it and I imprinted on the two of them and wrote a bunch of fic and then they went and screwed it all up in later movies but whatever. It would be awesome seeing a pre-Avengers storyline where Hawkeye brings her into SHIELD and it's all about their relationship but I know I'm the cheese that stands mostly alone here. I have fic to sustain me, I understand.

It's really less about hating Hawkeye and more about hating Jeremy Renner, who is just vile.

As others have pointed out, the time for a Black Widow movie was in 2012, following up Avengers, when she was literally the only woman the MCU was willing to offer, and Scarlet Johannson wasn't quite so toxic a name, and the MCU itself wasn't so incredibly tiring. Now that they've begrudgingly parceled a handful more, their female lead should be a more interesting character with a better actress.
posted by kafziel at 11:40 AM on December 3, 2019 [7 favorites]


So I guess it's official, David Harbour will not be Ben Grimm in the MCU. :(
posted by cazoo at 12:08 PM on December 3, 2019


Just for a second there, I thought the other woman in that scene was Villanelle from Killing Eve

Felt to me that it was Johansson herself (as well as the set designer) that was doing quite some channeling of Vilanelle/Killing Eve there...
posted by progosk at 12:20 PM on December 3, 2019


It's really less about hating Hawkeye and more about hating Jeremy Renner, who is just vile.

Yeah, but Scarlett Johhanssn isn't any prize either. I actually have been thinking recently about how one responds to getting Milkshake Ducked, especially when you've invested time and some emotional investment writing fic or doing fanart or something, but I haven't come to any conclusions.
posted by PussKillian at 1:52 PM on December 3, 2019


Mostly this trailer reminds me that Black Widow Gamora's death was 100% "YoUr AbUsEr ReAlLy LoVeS yOu!" messaging meant to give gravitas to the genocidal villain, and then they threw Natasha onto that garbage pile in Endgame. Nat's sacrifice meant a lot to a whole lot of viewers and I get that but it's foundation is pure thoughtless garbage and yeah, I expect I'll be angry about that forever.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:57 PM on December 3, 2019 [10 favorites]


The openings of both this trailer and the Red Sparrow one feature a dramatic shot of the Liberty Statue in Budapest.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:32 PM on December 3, 2019 [1 favorite]


Whatever the faults of the lead actor in the movie, I would hate it if this ‘proves’ to Marvel Films not to make any more films led by women.

What really makes this look boring to me is the lack of humour, the overblown spectacle, and the absence of any reason *why* this stuff happens. It’s like all the lessons of Guardians of the Galaxy/Antman 2/Thor 3 were joyfully tossed out of the window in favour of grimdark… Soviet?

I’m happy to suspend my disbelief and watch a marvel movie every now and again. I’m not interested in watching the same movie 34 times. Either iterate and evoke your formulaic movies or die; and no, female lead does not mean you’ve done enough.
posted by The River Ivel at 3:21 PM on December 3, 2019 [1 favorite]


Interesting; I didn't get a grimdark feeling, at all.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:33 PM on December 3, 2019 [2 favorites]


Heh, it's interesting how many people are absolutely sure this movie has no place in the MCU canon, based on a two-minute trailer.

At the very least, I imagine it'll give greater context to BW's actions in later movies. And considering how long it took to the franchise out from under a sexist asshole who vetoing any sort of female or minority led film, I got no problem with the current MCU head taking steps to make sure a BW movie happens.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:43 PM on December 3, 2019 [2 favorites]


Agree with all of the above and WHAT ABOUT THE MUSIC IN THIS TRAILER? I MEAN YESYESYES.
posted by Mike Mongo at 8:35 PM on December 3, 2019 [1 favorite]


At the very least, I imagine it'll give greater context to BW's actions in later movies. And considering how long it took to the franchise out from under a sexist asshole who vetoing any sort of female or minority led film, I got no problem with the current MCU head taking steps to make sure a BW movie happens.

As a friend of mine put it: "can't wait to see how this changes the motivations and story of a character who has already permanently died for bad reasons"
posted by kafziel at 10:20 PM on December 3, 2019 [4 favorites]


I just hope they do like they did with Gamora and the movie ends with somehow the past Black Widow is pulled out of time and brought back to the future. I see no point in the movie unless they do this.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:29 PM on December 3, 2019


I see no point in the movie unless they do this.

The point of the movie is probably to make more movies with Black Widow, except not with Scarlett Johansson. It is a torch-passing exercise. Just like Sam is the new Captain America, they're gonna try to make Yelena the new Black Widow.

Given how many people are fed up with Johansson anyway, I'd think people would be happy to see another actor take the role.
posted by straight at 12:13 AM on December 4, 2019


I mean, if they wanted to do that, they could have just recast the role. Exhibit A: James Rhodes. Keeping the same superhero name with a different character isn't recasting - nobody is expecting Anthony Mackie to be playing Steve Rogers after this - Sam as Captain America is a different role. If the torch passing even happens, which is more conjecture than any opinion on anything else about the movie at this point.
posted by dinty_moore at 6:48 AM on December 4, 2019


Recasting a role isn't the same thing as passing the torch though. Look at how many canonical spidermen there are... Same hero name, different person beneath the suit. The James Rhodes recasting was different. Two actors played the same character.
posted by Pendragon at 7:25 AM on December 4, 2019


As a friend of mine put it: "can't wait to see how this changes the motivations and story of a character who has already permanently died for bad reasons"

Hopefully your friend will find some other way to enjoy themselves since they've made up their mind on this movie.

But maybe the movie will give light to those "bad reasons"? Who knows, anything is possible over two hours!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:31 AM on December 4, 2019 [1 favorite]


Well, the reason was "to give the dudes a plot coupon and some angst" so I'm guessing not.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:34 AM on December 4, 2019 [1 favorite]


Oh my god, a haphazardly placed movie about how Natasha being thrown into the strong female character pit was Good Really would be the worst possible choice for them to make. Please no.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:36 AM on December 4, 2019 [2 favorites]


One of the things that comes up frequently and leaves me scratching my head is the (totally valid) critique general (lack of) quality, plot and storywriting of MCU movies in general.

And it leaves me thinking something like "Wait, what? Did anyone actually read the MCU comics themselves? Especially the 80s/90s expanded megaverse stuff where things get seriously wibbly-wobbly and are held together with bits of string and useless non-toxic glue?"

I'm not trying to hold Marvel to unrealistically high standards here, but it's really mostly a bunch of pulpy drek and pretty poorly defined story arcs and too many wild, loose threads to be cohesive without lots of bits of string and glue. The whole expanded universe "canon" was basically made up on the fly to try to sell more comics with soap opera grade plot gimmicks and crossovers at a time when the comics industry was languishing, especially the US comics industry.

It was designed to be soapy and pulpy, so an avid reader had to buy in to more titles and series to actually read the full story arcs. You couldn't just stick to one title like, say, the X-Men or Avengers and get the whole story. There were almost always references to other series and issues in footnotes right in the middle of the story, like "See Iron Man Issue #200, pg 4" kind of editor notes from the writers.

I remember having school age friends going through major stress trying to decide which comics and series to buy to try to keep up, because they couldn't afford to buy all of them for every issue. I couldn't even afford to get into it, and didn't really like cape shit that much anyway so I stuck to one offs, graphic novels and underground comic weirdness.

Sure, there's some really fun, cool stories in there but it's also weird to me to expect so much out of MCU movies, especially when they're making so many of them and emulating the intentionally pulpy, overly complicated and not really well planned story arcs that they're based on and trying to adhere to.

And while I'm super glad they're doing strong female character leads and letting women have, well, at least some heroes, the MCU is still canonically a boyzone by intentional design and it's going to be a bit difficult to escape or transcend.

Anyway all I really want is more Guardians of the Galaxy but only if #3 is better than #2.
posted by loquacious at 8:17 AM on December 4, 2019 [1 favorite]


I'm not trying to hold Marvel to unrealistically high standards here, but it's really mostly a bunch of pulpy drek and pretty poorly defined story arcs and too many wild

Meanwhile, there are a ton of good independent comics doing less pulpy stuff with more interesting characters, but Marvel/Disney is still trying to suck up all the air in the room.
posted by sneebler at 9:26 AM on December 4, 2019


I mean, the trick to reading marvel comics is to read the comics that Marvel doesn't care about. Squirrel Girl was fantastic. Ironheart has been pretty good. The Hawkeye titles with Kate Bishop front and center were extremely good, and I know folks who were enjoying the Sue Storm comics. They tend to not last very long (Squirrel Girl excepted), so you're going to get your heart broken over and over again, but much less of a boyzone, interesting storylines, and fewer crossovers.

Also, when Marvel/DC's sales go up, indie sales go up*. When the big two's sales fall, indie sales fall. It's less of a competition than you'd think.

*Up to a point, obviously - this is mostly the comics that issue floppy single issues that are trying to appeal to the same people in comic book shops - if you're mostly selling volumes in scholastic book sales, there's a whole different audience.
posted by dinty_moore at 10:13 AM on December 4, 2019 [1 favorite]


Meanwhile, there are a ton of good independent comics doing less pulpy stuff with more interesting characters, but Marvel/Disney is still trying to suck up all the air in the room.

That's rich, given that one of ScarJo's earlier roles was in an adaptation of one of the last graphic novels I'd have ever expected to see adapted.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:40 AM on December 4, 2019


Anyway all I really want is more Guardians of the Galaxy but only if #3 is better than #2.

Yeah, I over Guardians after #2, but the events of Infinity War re: Gamora and the addition of Thor opens up a lot of possibilities for #3. Less Quill be would really nice.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:14 AM on December 4, 2019


How many times have they even used the name "Black Widow" in the MCU movies? Is it more than zero?
posted by straight at 1:41 PM on December 4, 2019


How many times have they even used the name "Black Widow" in the MCU movies? Is it more than zero?

Yes? I'm not quite sure where you're going with this, but they have definitely called Natasha Romanov Black Widow in the movies. The first scene that came up for me on youtube (that's not this trailer) is the Black Widow interrogation scene, and the Russian mobster refers to her that way. If it's with the team, it's maybe shortened to Widow. They probably use it less often than 'Cap', more often than 'Iron Man'.
posted by dinty_moore at 6:18 AM on December 5, 2019


I liked GotG 2, as cheesy as it was. It had Baby Groot, and lots of great lines from Drax, and was pretty to look at.

"We leave no one behind. Except maybe you."
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:02 AM on December 5, 2019


Yeah, they also call her "Black Widow" a couple times in the last two Captain America movies. I just couldn't remember anyone calling her anything but "Nat" in the Avengers movies. I was just wondering how many people actually connect that name with Natasha in the movies.
posted by straight at 8:49 AM on December 5, 2019


It's definitely better than Carol's record of being called "Captain Marvel."
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:29 AM on December 5, 2019


While I can see how people might have an issue remembering what Scarlett Johansson's superhero name is, I think most people hear Black Widow, they know that she's the 'female Avenger'. It helps that there aren't that many female superheroes on screen, I guess.
posted by dinty_moore at 10:15 AM on December 5, 2019 [1 favorite]


Also, just read through the 'The auteur of Black Widow is Scarlett Johansson' thread from 2015. Which just seemed to remind me that 2015 was a long time ago, I guess.
posted by dinty_moore at 10:35 AM on December 5, 2019


Fuck yeah, I was in that thread, championing a BW movie!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:15 PM on December 5, 2019 [2 favorites]


This thread raises the interesting question of just how permanent death is going to turn out to be in the MCU.

It's long been a revolving door in the comics, with big characters dying from time to time, but almost always being resurrected shortly afterwards. Sometimes this is achieved through super-science, sometimes through magic and sometimes through manipulating the time stream or invoking multiple universes. Comics readers have got used to just shrugging their shoulders at this, and to assuming that no death can ever be more than provisional. "Currently dead" is the phrase used in many resting character's biographies, and it's one that may end up applying in the MCU too.

Who's to say Marvel/Disney might not one day decide its biggest profits lie in tempting Robert Downey Jr to return as a resurrected Tony Stark? Coupled with the kind of de-aging CGI we've seen in The Irishman, that could hold the promise of a big payday for studio and actor alike. No matter who inherits the armour, Tony Stark's always going to be the "real" Iron Man, just as he is in the comics, and this brute commercial logic may yet dictate that he can't be allowed to stay dead.

Scarlett Johansson's Black Widow doesn't have Stark's status as a cornerstone to the whole franchise, but I don't think we can assume that any MCU death is for keeps.
posted by Paul Slade at 4:28 AM on December 6, 2019 [1 favorite]


Exactly. Tony Stark stays dead only as long as Downey wants to be quit from the franchise. Vision is dead until someone elects to bring him back. I don't see why they would do a BW movie now if they have no intention of bringing back the character somehow, and pulling a past Gamora per Endgame proves that is an option.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:05 AM on December 6, 2019


Who's to say Marvel/Disney might not one day decide its biggest profits lie in tempting Robert Downey Jr to return as a resurrected Tony Stark?

He could easily be brought back as an AI/hologram.
posted by Fleebnork at 6:09 AM on December 6, 2019


Robert Downey costs a lot of money, so I doubt Disney will bring him back in any major way. The AI/Hologram is a possibility, but that all depends on how his contract was written and how hungry his lawyers are.

BW would probably come back if her movie does really well.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:45 AM on December 6, 2019


As comic book deaths go, "Died in a parallel universe as part of cosmic nonsense involving an Infinity Stone and the body disappeared (or the entire location of the death disappeared or whatever happened when Hawkeye woke up in a pool of water holding the stone)" ranks pretty high on the How Easy Is it to Bring This Character Back From The Dead scale.

If this movie does well for Disney and Johansson wants to make another one, there are probably a dozen options for how they could bring her back into the present-day MCU.
posted by straight at 2:57 PM on December 6, 2019


The real question is how many appearances/movies does Johannsson have left on her MCU contract.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:59 AM on December 7, 2019


None of the five MCU Phase 4 movies planned seem to have room for Black Widow and given that she's got a lot Oscar buzz right now, she might be done with these kind of films.
posted by octothorpe at 9:47 AM on December 7, 2019


> The setting of this seems to automatically give this movie pretty low stakes. I mean we know she doesn't die and we know that nothing will really change since we've seen multiple movies after the time that this one is set in.

I liked Rogue One even though I knew the rebels would get the plans.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:38 AM on December 9, 2019


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