Understand the struggle / healing spaces

December 16, 2019 12:25 AM

Why people of color need spaces without white people. Organizations who hold PoC only spaces struggle with pushback from White people. A post on why these spaces are crucial.

*Posted by a PoC of Mefi.*
*May all beings be free from suffering.*

posted by jj's.mama (29 comments total)

Mod note: One deleted. From the article, "white listeners often shift the focus back onto themselves"; please don't do this, or shift the conversation to discuss a different scope or setting or similar.
posted by taz (staff) at 1:04 AM on December 16, 2019 [45 favorites]

This was well worth reading- thank you for posting.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 1:47 AM on December 16, 2019 [1 favorite]

There is so much that is good in this article. Thank you for sharing it.

Also, this article linked from the original is quite good.
posted by kokaku at 1:48 AM on December 16, 2019 [3 favorites]

Mod note: One deleted. Read the article to find out what the article says; don't disrupt this discussion with exactly the same clueless whatabout-ery mentioned in the article. Don't disrupt this discussion for any other reason, either. If it's not about you, it's not about you.
posted by taz (staff) at 4:32 AM on December 16, 2019 [39 favorites]

I really loved this and I feel like it’s an article I should reread regularly. Thanks for posting.
posted by teleri025 at 4:57 AM on December 16, 2019

I am vividly reminded of one of Alex Norris' strips: oh no
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:06 AM on December 16, 2019 [19 favorites]

I loved this piece and its critique of “inclusive” spaces. Thank you for posting!
posted by mdonley at 5:07 AM on December 16, 2019

From the essay:

“Even if white people can’t access an embodied understanding of why PoC spaces are needed, they can still cultivate genuine compassion for our experience of needing them, and they can trust our voices enough to support these spaces. If the presence of spaces for people of color engenders discomfort, insecurity, or anger, I hope those emotions will be seen as an opportunity to look deeper within oneself to ask why.”

This.
posted by Fizz at 5:34 AM on December 16, 2019 [41 favorites]

There are so many "this" moments here! Here's one that resonated with me:

In integrated spaces, patterns of white dominance are inevitable. These patterns include things like being legitimized for using academic language, an expectation of “getting it right” (i.e., perfectionism), fear of open conflict, scapegoating those who cause discomfort, and a sense of urgency that takes precedence over inclusion.

posted by carter at 5:56 AM on December 16, 2019 [13 favorites]

Thank you for this post, jj's.mama

A person I love has been expressing interest in space just for people like them, and from the beginning of the conversation I have been nothing but supportive of them seeking that out. And still, I had a big slap in the face by reality realizing that I wouldn't be welcome in that space, in spite of years of them telling me that they don't feel welcome in my majority spaces. Even though I know all of this, living with this experience has reminded me that the work of social justice in our hearts and the unlearning of whiteness never ever ends.
posted by hydropsyche at 6:03 AM on December 16, 2019 [9 favorites]

And ugh this.

“I feel it in the overly friendly welcoming of my presence by someone with whom I share no obvious connection. I feel it in the over-sharing of race work that white people often feel compelled to tell me about.”

Thank you.
posted by toodleydoodley at 6:41 AM on December 16, 2019 [6 favorites]

Much thanks.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:15 AM on December 16, 2019

This is an important and stirring piece of writing. Thank you so much for posting it.
posted by merriment at 7:51 AM on December 16, 2019

Very, very valuable to read. Thank you for posting this!
posted by 41swans at 8:51 AM on December 16, 2019

Good read. Thank you for posting.

I am personally fairly uncomfortable in Indian-only spaces -- I did join the Indian Students Club as a high school freshman but only attended a couple of Bollywood movie nights before skipping out. This might reflect the fact that most Indians I know are politically very conservative (Trump/Modi supporters) and kind of obsessed with status/money/Ivy League degrees. I don't actually share any core values with that crowd, and I feel like I have to do a lot more self-silencing, than I do with my more progressive friends.

But I can absolutely see how being the only POC in a white space invites all kinds of inappropriate behavior, even (especially?) from people on the progressive/liberal side of the field. Maybe I just need to find better Indian-only spaces.
posted by basalganglia at 9:32 AM on December 16, 2019 [7 favorites]

Regarding this:

How is inclusiveness cultivated by “caucusing”—i.e., by inviting PoC groups to hold their own spaces and also encouraging white people to hold spaces to examine the illusion of “whiteness”?

I am wondering where those who are neither POC nor white fit into this framework.
posted by Conrad Cornelius o'Donald o'Dell at 9:55 AM on December 16, 2019 [1 favorite]

I really feel this, and especially wrt intersectionality as well. There are very few places where people can be free of the majority's gaze.

For me, like basalganglia says, I'm not necessarily comfortable in every group of only Chinese-Americans (especially with Mainland/HK & TW distinctions). There are so many other factors that go into a space: gender, sexuality, race, age, "generation" of immigrant... Personally I've been most comfortable in groups where there is no clear ethnic majority but we can all connect on being part of a diaspora.
posted by storytam at 9:59 AM on December 16, 2019 [6 favorites]

Thank you for posting this. It is very enlightening.
posted by OHenryPacey at 10:01 AM on December 16, 2019

Thanks for posting this, jj's.mama. It made me think about an intiative in the theater world that's been getting attention lately.
posted by minervous at 10:02 AM on December 16, 2019 [2 favorites]

I'm white, and grew up in an all-black neighborhood. Recently, our neighbor passed away, and we attended the funeral service. We were the only white people there. I felt like we were intruding, even though we were there to show support for the family. This article helps to explain why. I know it's not about me. I really appreciate how clearly the author explains how even my presence in a safe space probably changed the dynamic, and not in a good way. What a valuable read, thanks for posting this.
posted by Chuffy at 10:15 AM on December 16, 2019 [8 favorites]

In integrated spaces, patterns of white dominance are inevitable. These patterns include things like being legitimized for using academic language, an expectation of “getting it right” (i.e., perfectionism)

Could someone please clarify this for me: is it that perfectionism is a white trait, or is it that people of color need to be "perfect" to be accepted in a white setting?
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:13 AM on December 16, 2019

Could someone please clarify this for me: is it that perfectionism is a white trait, or is it that people of color need to be "perfect" to be accepted in a white setting?

Perfectionism is one of the traits of white supremacy culture identified by Kenneth Jones and Tema Okun.
posted by overglow at 12:50 PM on December 16, 2019 [7 favorites]

Could someone please clarify this for me: is it that perfectionism is a white trait, or is it that people of color need to be "perfect" to be accepted in a white setting?

Not seeking to provide a definitive explanation here (it seems to me that this is not the point of this discussion). However, in my experience it can be both (and maybe other things too). The whole paragraph reads:

In integrated spaces, patterns of white dominance are inevitable. These patterns include things like being legitimized for using academic language, an expectation of “getting it right” (i.e., perfectionism), fear of open conflict, scapegoating those who cause discomfort, and a sense of urgency that takes precedence over inclusion.

The whole bs of academic culture - which has been bought, and is bought into, using race, class, and privilege - can be enormously present in these settings, and anyone who does not know these unspoken rules is excluded, talked over, discounted, disregarded, and made to feel inadequate. So many of these meetings - which are supposed to be inclusive, even if it is on the vague premise of addressing less-fortunate-people's-problems, and are full of well-meaning types - devolve over the course of several hours into grad-school-seminar-like point making and point scoring, often with the result that the last people standing at the end are then only ones with the energy to flip through their iPhones to set calendars, text each other action items, and set agendas (in all senses of the term) for the next meeting.

Of course you could say that well, these settings are open to everybody. But the existing rules for participation are tacit and privilege/culturally-derived, and demand working knowledge; and they are set by those often in control of the group, and also used by those in control of the group to exclude those who do not fit in, in countless ways. I have seen this happen so many times and in so many different ways that I just take it as a given.
posted by carter at 2:07 PM on December 16, 2019 [4 favorites]

White people, in my experience as a white person, regularly try to center themselves, and their feelings, thoughts, ideas and comfort, in any space in which they are. They aren't generally used to not being centered, and they often react poorly, in ways that require work by others on their behalf.

Anyway, if people want a framework for the ethics of a member of a privileged group seeking entry into a group which lacks privilege, there's a pretty simple one.

Listen to what people say, and then accept their right to be advocates speaking for their own interests and making decisions about themselves and their community.

If you don't listen, you are denying them a voice.
If you don't accept their right to speak for themselves and decide for themselves, you are saying that you know their oppression better than them, or that you deserve to be centered, instead of them.

Thus you can offer your presence, your assistance as an ally, but to decide to insist upon it is to rob them of agency and time, when there are many many other places that white people are welcome in.
posted by gryftir at 6:33 PM on December 16, 2019

Thank you for posting this excellent article, jj's.mama.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 7:07 PM on December 16, 2019 [1 favorite]

You sorta have to admire the irony of a white person spending five paragraphs whitesplaining the phenomenon of white people centering themselves in these spaces/conversations. Incredibly patronizing.
posted by smithsmith at 1:55 AM on December 17, 2019

Mod note: In this situation I don't thinks it's so much whitesplaining to people of color how white people center themselves, but making an effort to take on the responsibility of teaching other white people about the issues, rather than placing the huge burden on PoC to teach and help white people be better. However, that's probably something best done in a different thread/post rather than this one, in aid of not redirecting the focus.
posted by taz (staff) at 2:38 AM on December 17, 2019 [1 favorite]

White people, in my experience as a white person, regularly try to center themselves, and their feelings, thoughts, ideas and comfort, in any space in which they are. They aren't generally used to not being centered, and they often react poorly, in ways that require work by others on their behalf.

I'd replace "center" by "impose."

I'd also replace "centered" by "acknowledged as being correct."

I think it's not just a question of white people not giving PoC (apologies for the essentialisms) space according to the the rules of white people, but a wider disregard of hundreds of years of structural inequality, poverty, and violence, that have led us to where we are now. These "feelings, thoughts, ideas and comfort" that are being imposed also include an active unwillingness to talk about, and also a willingness to shut down, conversations that will lead discussion of some of the structural issues (poverty, racism, colonization projects, etc.) that underpin the ostensible agenda-listed topics for discussion (e.g. gentrification).

And amongst many effects and outcomes - such as visceral stab to the heart every time I hear a PoC attempt to introduce this wider discussion, before it is hand-waved away by white people as "not relevant" and getting in the way of what the meeting is really trying to do (see quote from the article above) - this often shuts down any dialog before it has a chance to begin, and seeds/reinforces the idea it's only white people who know how to bring about change.

Again, this is not just rhetoric, but the outcome of way too many hours spent in meetings ...
posted by carter at 5:14 AM on December 17, 2019 [3 favorites]

I have collectively started and maintained majority-PoC community spaces and buildings for the past 7 years.

I will say: it is a breath of fresh air. Sometimes I go to white spaces and I realize how stifling the air is, how difficult it is to say anything about race or culture or who I am. It's hard to talk about race in a white space.

In the spaces that I and my communities create, talking about race feels like talking about family or relationships. It's a constant, inevitable, natural, often difficult, everpresent part of life. It's part of me, and part of how I show up.

I will also note that most white spaces are actually "white spaces where white people don't talk about whiteness to each other". One of the side benefits of the spaces I'm part of is that race, including whiteness, is a part of the conversation. You don't get any what-about-ism or white-fragility-centering, and the white people who are interested in joining a space are already fully down with it being a majority PoC space.

--

As a note. If you are a PoC and you're interested in creating a PoC-only or majority space, please feel free to reach out to me. I'm been in the midst of all of it - financial models, leases, legal, insurance, designing physical spaces, pulling building permits, balancing construction budgets, working with contractors, to creating cooperative structures, consensus-building, community conflict mediation, discussions about race and gender and sexuality, working through shared conflict, maintaining and caring for each other. I'm happy to talk about what that might mean in your community.
posted by suedehead at 1:45 PM on December 20, 2019 [4 favorites]