Who Decides What Makes a Food "Authentic"?
December 16, 2019 9:18 AM Subscribe
What did authenticity in food mean in 2019? In the foodie world, there's a constant mad dash to eat the most authentic cuisines possible. What does that mean when recipes are ever changing?
"...what consumers deemed “real” was heavily influenced by whiteness. Americans still largely consider European-influenced cuisine as the norm (see any “new American” menu for proof), and their opinions of what is authentic extend from that center point."
Authentic is a word that is almost always used with non-white/non-European cuisines. The arbiters of authenticity are often white, and not even a part of the ethnicity that first created a particular dish. This often leads to exoticization and changing of dishes to suit a particular palate, but ethnic chefs are calling this out.
Restaurant review services such as Yelp, only help to spread the problem of "authenticity".
The problem with calling an ethnic cuisine a "trend" is that also means the erasure of a history of a people:
"Notable Filipino restaurants have been in the country for decades. Unlike, say, molecular gastronomy, Filipino food isn't a new, invented fad that suddenly captivated the restaurant world. So the very nature of tagging something as a trend also gives it a shelf life that is set to expire after its moment of popularity. But that's not how cuisines work."
Even barbecue isn't safe from whitewashing.
Previously.
"...what consumers deemed “real” was heavily influenced by whiteness. Americans still largely consider European-influenced cuisine as the norm (see any “new American” menu for proof), and their opinions of what is authentic extend from that center point."
Authentic is a word that is almost always used with non-white/non-European cuisines. The arbiters of authenticity are often white, and not even a part of the ethnicity that first created a particular dish. This often leads to exoticization and changing of dishes to suit a particular palate, but ethnic chefs are calling this out.
Restaurant review services such as Yelp, only help to spread the problem of "authenticity".
The problem with calling an ethnic cuisine a "trend" is that also means the erasure of a history of a people:
"Notable Filipino restaurants have been in the country for decades. Unlike, say, molecular gastronomy, Filipino food isn't a new, invented fad that suddenly captivated the restaurant world. So the very nature of tagging something as a trend also gives it a shelf life that is set to expire after its moment of popularity. But that's not how cuisines work."
Even barbecue isn't safe from whitewashing.
Previously.
so I wonder if something similar happens with cuisine - that what some people consider to be a falsely static 'authentic' cuisine is a set of things briefly frozen by an important change in circumstance.
I believe this.
It's why I enjoy living in LA. The food is interesting, as depending on the restaurant, you are getting food that is kind of a cultural snapshot in time, of the food of that culture and era mixed with whatever Americanization was needed at the time to make it successful.
Do I seek out places that remind me of the food I tasted when I visited its place of origin? Sure! But I also seek out places where it's evolved to something new (and delicious).
In the end, authenticity just feels like elitism. What tastes good, that's what I want; who cares about "authentic"?
posted by linux at 10:14 AM on December 16, 2019 [7 favorites]
I believe this.
It's why I enjoy living in LA. The food is interesting, as depending on the restaurant, you are getting food that is kind of a cultural snapshot in time, of the food of that culture and era mixed with whatever Americanization was needed at the time to make it successful.
Do I seek out places that remind me of the food I tasted when I visited its place of origin? Sure! But I also seek out places where it's evolved to something new (and delicious).
In the end, authenticity just feels like elitism. What tastes good, that's what I want; who cares about "authentic"?
posted by linux at 10:14 AM on December 16, 2019 [7 favorites]
so I wonder if something similar happens with cuisine
It definitely does, and the language example you use (Italian as spoken by descendants of those who emigrated vs. modern Italians) is echoed similarly in cuisine. A lot of "inauthentic" Italian-American cuisine was created by those who emigrated from Italy and can't be said to somehow not have been "real" Italians.
That's not to say that there wasn't adaptation to try to please the palates of those already in the US -- just, easily as much of the divergence is simply because those who emigrated were in a very different place on many levels, including geographically (affecting what ingredients are available and what other cuisines influence them), socially, economically, etc.
posted by tocts at 10:17 AM on December 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
It definitely does, and the language example you use (Italian as spoken by descendants of those who emigrated vs. modern Italians) is echoed similarly in cuisine. A lot of "inauthentic" Italian-American cuisine was created by those who emigrated from Italy and can't be said to somehow not have been "real" Italians.
That's not to say that there wasn't adaptation to try to please the palates of those already in the US -- just, easily as much of the divergence is simply because those who emigrated were in a very different place on many levels, including geographically (affecting what ingredients are available and what other cuisines influence them), socially, economically, etc.
posted by tocts at 10:17 AM on December 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
Seems like it's time to put "authentic" to rest.
It had a good run; thirty years ago a lot of "ethnic" foods were Americanized versions, and it was a genuine joy to find something that was true to the recipe, that didn't condescend to assuming an American palate would dislike spice or flavor.
We're just past that now. "Authentic" is not the same as "foreign" or "challenging" cuisine, and "American" does not need to mean "boring" or "bland."
We can use better adjectives. Instead of "authentic barbecue," we could offer " barbecue".
posted by explosion at 10:20 AM on December 16, 2019 [8 favorites]
It had a good run; thirty years ago a lot of "ethnic" foods were Americanized versions, and it was a genuine joy to find something that was true to the recipe, that didn't condescend to assuming an American palate would dislike spice or flavor.
We're just past that now. "Authentic" is not the same as "foreign" or "challenging" cuisine, and "American" does not need to mean "boring" or "bland."
We can use better adjectives. Instead of "authentic barbecue," we could offer "
posted by explosion at 10:20 AM on December 16, 2019 [8 favorites]
There was a good thread on this general topic (but more on the "home cooking" front) previously. I'm glad the discussion is continuing. I don't think it's an easy topic.
posted by queensissy at 10:27 AM on December 16, 2019
posted by queensissy at 10:27 AM on December 16, 2019
Great post. I agree with everyone above; let's describe how the food tastes and looks and smells and if we think this dish comes together well (or not), get rid of "authentic " or "trend" that basically disguises othering.
posted by twentyfeetof tacos at 10:32 AM on December 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by twentyfeetof tacos at 10:32 AM on December 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
Oh - also! I'm not sure how easy it is to find, but about 15-20 years ago there was an interesting TV series called Chinese Restaurants, exploring immigrant family-run Chinese restaurants in countries around the world and how/why they've adapted their menus in certain ways.
posted by queensissy at 10:36 AM on December 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by queensissy at 10:36 AM on December 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
Sometimes I like to jokingly go on about how realistic a food item is.
posted by aubilenon at 10:36 AM on December 16, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by aubilenon at 10:36 AM on December 16, 2019 [8 favorites]
Nobody in malaysia or singapore has ever argued about the authenticity of the multiplistic geographic influences and cuisines that make up local food culture. previously.
posted by Mrs Potato at 10:39 AM on December 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Mrs Potato at 10:39 AM on December 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
I think authenticity does matter in terms of what gets called "Chinese" food. I see sometimes cuisine from Hong Kong and Taiwan being labeled as Chinese cuisine, and I begin to go down the rabbit hole of wondering if this is an unconscious choice made because the writer/speaker is lacking political/cultural awareness or if it's a consequence of the effort by the Party to erode and even erase those identities. And if the writer has a Chinese sounding name, then I have a parallel set of thoughts about what their viewpoints are on One China, etc.
For some it may be a trivial matter, but for me I can begin to understand why, for example, some Quebeckers defend poutine as their own and not Canadian.
posted by FJT at 10:43 AM on December 16, 2019 [4 favorites]
For some it may be a trivial matter, but for me I can begin to understand why, for example, some Quebeckers defend poutine as their own and not Canadian.
posted by FJT at 10:43 AM on December 16, 2019 [4 favorites]
I think this is a "map is not the territory" situation. People want a simple way to represent the world (of cuisine in this case) that makes communication possible using symbols. The symbols are inevitably less complex than what they represent, for the better and the not-so-good.
posted by Mei's lost sandal at 10:44 AM on December 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Mei's lost sandal at 10:44 AM on December 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
Yes, but like the example of Italians bifurcating with the diaspora, the same has happened to the cuisine in Singapore/Malaysia - you can get Hakka noodles, Hokkien fried rice, Hainanese chicken rice, Teochew sticky rice, and various Cantonese dishes. That may be more realistic than nationstate level division maybe? Mandarin has erased dialect and vernacular but not the food. Szechwan
posted by Mrs Potato at 10:45 AM on December 16, 2019
posted by Mrs Potato at 10:45 AM on December 16, 2019
it's me, i decide now. all food is authentic unless it is made of literally inedible components like fake display food. good day.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:58 AM on December 16, 2019 [22 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 10:58 AM on December 16, 2019 [22 favorites]
I tend to cringe at the term "authentic" for all the reasons in this post, but there's a powerful take in the first link:
“Authentic,” for Jaffrey, meant food specific to different regions and different traditions of India, and food that is cooked by Indians for Indians, not to suit the American palate. Jaffrey wrote, however, that non-Indian Americans at the time were yearning “to experience the ‘real’ thing, an authentic taste,” and wrote her cookbook to suit those desires. This is authenticity, and cultural exchange, at its best — the willingness to center and value another culture’s traditions.
If references to "authenticity" are about who gets to define something's realness, then an uncritical use of the term "authentic" is authentically white, centering our culture's tradition of stealing, defining, and talking over other cultures.
posted by entropone at 11:06 AM on December 16, 2019
“Authentic,” for Jaffrey, meant food specific to different regions and different traditions of India, and food that is cooked by Indians for Indians, not to suit the American palate. Jaffrey wrote, however, that non-Indian Americans at the time were yearning “to experience the ‘real’ thing, an authentic taste,” and wrote her cookbook to suit those desires. This is authenticity, and cultural exchange, at its best — the willingness to center and value another culture’s traditions.
If references to "authenticity" are about who gets to define something's realness, then an uncritical use of the term "authentic" is authentically white, centering our culture's tradition of stealing, defining, and talking over other cultures.
posted by entropone at 11:06 AM on December 16, 2019
Previously on MeFi:
"What the Heck Is Crab Rangoon Anyway?" From the linked article: "ONE THING TO GET OUT of the way is that crab rangoon is not inauthentic..."
And: "this question of ‘who gets to cook what’ ... Who gets to represent whose food, and to what audience?"
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 11:19 AM on December 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
"What the Heck Is Crab Rangoon Anyway?" From the linked article: "ONE THING TO GET OUT of the way is that crab rangoon is not inauthentic..."
And: "this question of ‘who gets to cook what’ ... Who gets to represent whose food, and to what audience?"
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 11:19 AM on December 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
I think the problem is that "authenticity" only arose when people found out that a restaurant cheated them of what they desired and the way restaurant did it was to sell a particular culture in a way that didn't reflect objective qualities of the food. It's true that white consumer discourse about Chinese food can sometimes be insufferably narrow, but restaurants also have an ethical responsibility to not misrepresent cultural claims even as they need to make compromises while operating in a largely culturally hostile land. I think this is why authenticity is best understood in its negation: when people say authenticity it's only because they've had a problem with some grievous instance of inauthenticity and lack the words to articulate that. It's like Lam's mother who just wants some decent e.g. Cantonese cuisine and not the stuff that cuts corners with objective culinary technique and ingredient. Either they used consomme to braise that abalone for 12 hours or they didn't, etc. Cutting corners and change is fine; it's restaurants in a capitalist economy not being transparent about this that is problematic.
posted by polymodus at 11:24 AM on December 16, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by polymodus at 11:24 AM on December 16, 2019 [5 favorites]
I posted in the thread linked by Mr.Know-it-some....
"A lot of people talk about authenticity. "I found this great, super authentic Armenian place!" or "the food at that new Thai restaurant isn't very authentic". It drives me nuts. What does authentic mean? That it complies with some standard of what has been decided constitutes the ingredients, styles and cooking methods of that cuisine? Who decided that? When did they decide? Was it a decision reached by consensus? Were the people who actually cook that cuisine consulted?
It's a meaningless term. It attempts to freeze a cuisine in amber, trying to constrain it to a set of ingredients, styles and methods that are familiar to or expected by that particular observer. Food culture changes over time and always has done. It's influenced by new discoveries, new immigrants, new agricultural techniques, fashion trends and an infinite number of other things. Is Italian food with tomatoes inauthentic? There were no tomatoes before Columbus. How about Szechuan food without chilies? Ditto Columbus. English food without pickle? Obviously an Indian influence at work there. Or who would claim that chicken tikka masala isn't a quintessentially British dish? One could say "ah, but the Italians have been using tomatoes for hundreds of years!" Fair point. When's the cut off date? How many years does something have to be used before it's authentic? 300? 100? 50? 25? It's a completely arbitrary number.
That's not to say that it's a worthwhile endeavor to just mix up any old thing. There's a reason "fusion" is often called "confusion". Ingredients have to be combined for a reason, not just thrown together in an attempt to do something cool or to take advantage of the latest food trends. Do those two things you're mixing together make sense together? Is it respectful of the ingredients and flavours? If the answer is yes to both, then I say mix away! If not, just leave it alone.
The question isn't, or shouldn't be, "Is it authentic?" The question should be "Is it good?""
I'm quoting myself. It's truly Metafilter.
posted by conifer at 11:26 AM on December 16, 2019 [11 favorites]
"A lot of people talk about authenticity. "I found this great, super authentic Armenian place!" or "the food at that new Thai restaurant isn't very authentic". It drives me nuts. What does authentic mean? That it complies with some standard of what has been decided constitutes the ingredients, styles and cooking methods of that cuisine? Who decided that? When did they decide? Was it a decision reached by consensus? Were the people who actually cook that cuisine consulted?
It's a meaningless term. It attempts to freeze a cuisine in amber, trying to constrain it to a set of ingredients, styles and methods that are familiar to or expected by that particular observer. Food culture changes over time and always has done. It's influenced by new discoveries, new immigrants, new agricultural techniques, fashion trends and an infinite number of other things. Is Italian food with tomatoes inauthentic? There were no tomatoes before Columbus. How about Szechuan food without chilies? Ditto Columbus. English food without pickle? Obviously an Indian influence at work there. Or who would claim that chicken tikka masala isn't a quintessentially British dish? One could say "ah, but the Italians have been using tomatoes for hundreds of years!" Fair point. When's the cut off date? How many years does something have to be used before it's authentic? 300? 100? 50? 25? It's a completely arbitrary number.
That's not to say that it's a worthwhile endeavor to just mix up any old thing. There's a reason "fusion" is often called "confusion". Ingredients have to be combined for a reason, not just thrown together in an attempt to do something cool or to take advantage of the latest food trends. Do those two things you're mixing together make sense together? Is it respectful of the ingredients and flavours? If the answer is yes to both, then I say mix away! If not, just leave it alone.
The question isn't, or shouldn't be, "Is it authentic?" The question should be "Is it good?""
I'm quoting myself. It's truly Metafilter.
posted by conifer at 11:26 AM on December 16, 2019 [11 favorites]
Q: What do they call Chinese food in China?
A: Food.
posted by chavenet at 11:33 AM on December 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
A: Food.
posted by chavenet at 11:33 AM on December 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
The question isn't, or shouldn't be, "Is it authentic?" The question should be "Is it good?""
I think the reason people like to assign 'authenticity' vs just describing 'taste' is because taste is so subjective and I don't mean between people but even within a single person at different times. In other words, at times McDonalds 'tastes good' and other times and situations it doesn't, but 'authentic' (with its friends 'fresh,' natural', 'healthy' and I guess now 'clean') are used in a less individual-context sensitive kind of way. McDonalds may taste good, but it will never be 'authentic'.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:33 AM on December 16, 2019
I think the reason people like to assign 'authenticity' vs just describing 'taste' is because taste is so subjective and I don't mean between people but even within a single person at different times. In other words, at times McDonalds 'tastes good' and other times and situations it doesn't, but 'authentic' (with its friends 'fresh,' natural', 'healthy' and I guess now 'clean') are used in a less individual-context sensitive kind of way. McDonalds may taste good, but it will never be 'authentic'.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:33 AM on December 16, 2019
McDonalds may taste good, but it will never be 'authentic'.
You know what's been marketed as "authentic" American cuisine outside of the USA?
Please remember that the rest of the world is watching you, too.
posted by sukeban at 11:40 AM on December 16, 2019 [18 favorites]
You know what's been marketed as "authentic" American cuisine outside of the USA?
Please remember that the rest of the world is watching you, too.
posted by sukeban at 11:40 AM on December 16, 2019 [18 favorites]
On the contrary, The_Vegetables. McDonald's is authentic McDonald's. You can go to almost any country in the world and get a Big Mac indistinguishable from any other Big Mac, but distinct from almost any other cheeseburger acquired elsewhere. I believe I could pick out the authentic Big Mac from among a dozen impostors, and so could many other Americans.
If anything, the notion of "authenticity" is flawed only by insufficient granularity. We could debate for years over what constitutes authentic Italian cuisine, but one could in theory compile a menu that is an authentic representation of upper-class Rome, summer 1830. Or, indeed, authentic Mike's Pizzaria (sic), Baltimore, circa 1989.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:43 AM on December 16, 2019 [5 favorites]
If anything, the notion of "authenticity" is flawed only by insufficient granularity. We could debate for years over what constitutes authentic Italian cuisine, but one could in theory compile a menu that is an authentic representation of upper-class Rome, summer 1830. Or, indeed, authentic Mike's Pizzaria (sic), Baltimore, circa 1989.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:43 AM on December 16, 2019 [5 favorites]
Is this the thread where I get to say -- as the American-born child of German immigrants -- that some of the stuff sold in this country as "bratwurst" is pretty gross?
posted by Slothrup at 11:45 AM on December 16, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by Slothrup at 11:45 AM on December 16, 2019 [8 favorites]
You know what's been marketed yt as "authentic yt " American yt cuisine outside of the USA?
Please remember that the rest of the world is watching you, too.
Of course it is marketed as 'authentic', but it's not, which is exactly what the article talks about, and I'm not suggesting that 'authenticity' is real, more like it's a writer's crutch.
You want to know a food genre that is drowning in it's 'authenticity'? Barbecue. If you eat it in a barbecue state, then it's a way of cooking meat (and most likely) the rest of the meal is nonsense. Plates and silverware? that's not authentic! Just pile in on the table and serve it with the laziest bread, pickles, onions, and peppers you can find. I'd bet that in a decade, a restaurant will serve it to you while you are sitting on an actual horse, pig, or cow and then will collapse in on itself. But if you eat it in a non-barbecue state, the meat is part of a meal, and the full meal is probably better.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:51 AM on December 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
Please remember that the rest of the world is watching you, too.
Of course it is marketed as 'authentic', but it's not, which is exactly what the article talks about, and I'm not suggesting that 'authenticity' is real, more like it's a writer's crutch.
You want to know a food genre that is drowning in it's 'authenticity'? Barbecue. If you eat it in a barbecue state, then it's a way of cooking meat (and most likely) the rest of the meal is nonsense. Plates and silverware? that's not authentic! Just pile in on the table and serve it with the laziest bread, pickles, onions, and peppers you can find. I'd bet that in a decade, a restaurant will serve it to you while you are sitting on an actual horse, pig, or cow and then will collapse in on itself. But if you eat it in a non-barbecue state, the meat is part of a meal, and the full meal is probably better.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:51 AM on December 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
"Authenticity" in cuisine is 100%, no wiggle room, class signalling repackaged as virtue.
When you judge food to be "authentic", it really means that people have access to it who aren't you or like you.
posted by FakeFreyja at 11:56 AM on December 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
When you judge food to be "authentic", it really means that people have access to it who aren't you or like you.
posted by FakeFreyja at 11:56 AM on December 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
Oh, American barbecue. We also have that here. (Ribs is a local burger and grill franchise that has their restaurants decorated like Cracker Barrel).
I really only want to remark that American cuisine is just as prone to bastardization and changing to suit local tastes as Szechuanese, and you guys are also "exotic" seen from outside.
posted by sukeban at 12:05 PM on December 16, 2019 [4 favorites]
I really only want to remark that American cuisine is just as prone to bastardization and changing to suit local tastes as Szechuanese, and you guys are also "exotic" seen from outside.
posted by sukeban at 12:05 PM on December 16, 2019 [4 favorites]
"Authenticity" in cuisine is 100%, no wiggle room, class signalling repackaged as virtue.
But it's... not, not always? I mean there's already at least one instance in the thread where it means something real and important to a certain population at a moment in time.
Not at all to pick specifically on you. These threads seem to come around fairly regularly, and there's always a stack of "Authenticity means nothing" takes of varying brusqueness and imaginary-bad-person-taegettingness and it just - to me even before you unpack it, a take that simple can't be that right and that easy.
posted by ominous_paws at 12:24 PM on December 16, 2019 [7 favorites]
But it's... not, not always? I mean there's already at least one instance in the thread where it means something real and important to a certain population at a moment in time.
Not at all to pick specifically on you. These threads seem to come around fairly regularly, and there's always a stack of "Authenticity means nothing" takes of varying brusqueness and imaginary-bad-person-taegettingness and it just - to me even before you unpack it, a take that simple can't be that right and that easy.
posted by ominous_paws at 12:24 PM on December 16, 2019 [7 favorites]
The problem is that "authentic" carries two different connotations here:
(1) "the One True Form of the dish, which can never change, and which is also the Platonic ideal, anything else is Fake and Bad" and
(2) "a representative form of the dish as it is actually eaten in whatever cultures ordinarily consume it"
I don't think a desire for (2) represents anything more than reasonably intelligent curiosity. Why wouldn't I want to try a larb using the types of ingredients and forms of preparation most commonly used in the Isan region of Thailand or in Laos? Maybe I'll like it. How else would I know? (Certainly I don't think people who didn't grow up in the meatloaf-eating Midwest can appreciate how much of a TOTAL FUCKING REVELATION it is the first time you try certain combinations of flavors that are not white American. A whole world of deliciousness you didn't know about!) Doesn't mean I can never eat pad Thai again (though it's really too sweet for me these days), or that somebody who puts other herbs in the larb is committing some kind of sin. It's (1) that's the problem.
posted by praemunire at 12:33 PM on December 16, 2019 [25 favorites]
(1) "the One True Form of the dish, which can never change, and which is also the Platonic ideal, anything else is Fake and Bad" and
(2) "a representative form of the dish as it is actually eaten in whatever cultures ordinarily consume it"
I don't think a desire for (2) represents anything more than reasonably intelligent curiosity. Why wouldn't I want to try a larb using the types of ingredients and forms of preparation most commonly used in the Isan region of Thailand or in Laos? Maybe I'll like it. How else would I know? (Certainly I don't think people who didn't grow up in the meatloaf-eating Midwest can appreciate how much of a TOTAL FUCKING REVELATION it is the first time you try certain combinations of flavors that are not white American. A whole world of deliciousness you didn't know about!) Doesn't mean I can never eat pad Thai again (though it's really too sweet for me these days), or that somebody who puts other herbs in the larb is committing some kind of sin. It's (1) that's the problem.
posted by praemunire at 12:33 PM on December 16, 2019 [25 favorites]
You want to know a food genre that is drowning in it's 'authenticity'? Barbecue. If you eat it in a barbecue state, then it's a way of cooking meat (and most likely) the rest of the meal is nonsense.
*pushes glasses down nose*
[sternly]Hush puppies are never nonsense.[/sternly]
"Authenticity" in cuisine is 100%, no wiggle room, class signalling repackaged as virtue.
I'd append "authenticity when it's marketed to anglos" or "when it's being marketed to a different culture that's the local majority." There's some kind of authenticity being offered at the Mexican places in and around D/FW where the parking lots were always full of pickups from Mexico, but I don't think it's a higher-class marker.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 12:44 PM on December 16, 2019 [5 favorites]
*pushes glasses down nose*
[sternly]Hush puppies are never nonsense.[/sternly]
"Authenticity" in cuisine is 100%, no wiggle room, class signalling repackaged as virtue.
I'd append "authenticity when it's marketed to anglos" or "when it's being marketed to a different culture that's the local majority." There's some kind of authenticity being offered at the Mexican places in and around D/FW where the parking lots were always full of pickups from Mexico, but I don't think it's a higher-class marker.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 12:44 PM on December 16, 2019 [5 favorites]
I can hardly believe "authentic" as a generic descriptor of a food is still so actively used by people. Randomly, in this 2013 thread, I laid down my sense of the deprecation of "authenticity," and an interesting discussion emerged. I know this kind of discussion was going on in food scholarship by that time, robustly, and I thought by now the food press would be done with it, if not eaters themselves. So dumb.
posted by Miko at 12:44 PM on December 16, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by Miko at 12:44 PM on December 16, 2019 [3 favorites]
To arabisopsis’ point, I find it completely bizarre that people will argue that their family’s barbecue (or whatever white people food) is the best but will then complain that their Mexican or Chinese meal isn’t authentic enough. At what point do they take into account that just like there are infinite ways of doing barbecue, there are also many different ways of making a Chinese meal that is still ‘authentic’. And what they’re probably tasting is that restaurant’s family recipe.
posted by Jubey at 1:05 PM on December 16, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 1:05 PM on December 16, 2019 [3 favorites]
Of course it [McDonalds and other fast food] is marketed as 'authentic', but it's not
McDonald's sells $8 billion worth of food in the US each year. How much more authentically American can you get?
And it's not only the food that's authentically American: It's the communities that those restaurants support.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 1:06 PM on December 16, 2019 [3 favorites]
McDonald's sells $8 billion worth of food in the US each year. How much more authentically American can you get?
And it's not only the food that's authentically American: It's the communities that those restaurants support.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 1:06 PM on December 16, 2019 [3 favorites]
At this point the closest thing I could ascribe to desiring 'authenticity' is borne of all those past threads on the frustrations of seeing past (and presumably present) generations of white Americans turn their noses up at dishes and then later those same people taking over those spaces and those dishes.
i.e. avoiding that, avoiding giving business to people doing that over people hopefully getting a chance to shine.
Larger-context authenticity? That's been well covered above. I just want to avoid "Chef Jeff's Elevated Lumpia shack".
posted by CrystalDave at 1:15 PM on December 16, 2019 [3 favorites]
i.e. avoiding that, avoiding giving business to people doing that over people hopefully getting a chance to shine.
Larger-context authenticity? That's been well covered above. I just want to avoid "Chef Jeff's Elevated Lumpia shack".
posted by CrystalDave at 1:15 PM on December 16, 2019 [3 favorites]
McDonald's sells $8 billion worth of food in the US each year. How much more authentically American can you get?
Is there are distinction between 'authentic' and 'most popular'? If there is not, then Starbucks is the most authentic coffee, Subway the most authentic US sandwich, and Pizza Hut the most authentic pizza.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:22 PM on December 16, 2019
Is there are distinction between 'authentic' and 'most popular'? If there is not, then Starbucks is the most authentic coffee, Subway the most authentic US sandwich, and Pizza Hut the most authentic pizza.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:22 PM on December 16, 2019
From that Malaysia/Singapore perspective, honestly I wish you fellow diasporic folks the best in your food journey as an expression of collective identity, because absolutely how you make it is as authentic and legitimate as whatever is back in the source culture, even if some techniques or tastes calls back to even older times. But even here we can fall into the authenticity trap, when we talk about non-local cuisine, like when discussing Tex-Mex Vs Mexican food, and I do notice it's mostly an influence of Anglo food culture, so all the attendant issues being discussed comes to fore. When it's local cuisine though, it's more as a synonym for a more faithful style compared to the mishmash that we do practice (until it gets to a point the mishmash/adaptation is its own established style, then we start looking for authentic versions of that too).
(And like, in places over here, Chinese food != China food, but I think I've mentioned before we have the population size and cultural strength to make that distinction)
posted by cendawanita at 1:36 PM on December 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
(And like, in places over here, Chinese food != China food, but I think I've mentioned before we have the population size and cultural strength to make that distinction)
posted by cendawanita at 1:36 PM on December 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
A lot of my favorite food is food that someone calls "inauthentic". And I've had a lot of "authentic" food that sucks.
posted by grouse at 1:37 PM on December 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by grouse at 1:37 PM on December 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
Sometimes I want a decent term for food that's been produced in a way that isn't removing all interesting stuff to make it anodyne and acceptable to the most bland Midwestern palate. Authentic certainly isn't right though. It can be wildly off the "traditional" recipe and that doesn't matter just that it isn't made thoroughly inoffensive.
posted by Ferreous at 1:46 PM on December 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Ferreous at 1:46 PM on December 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
Is there are distinction between 'authentic' and 'most popular'?
Not really. I mean, the most "authentic" Russian food would probably be the food most commonly enjoyed by the people of Russia, and the same holds true here. But then you get into the globalization of the food industry, and maybe Starbucks becomes the "authentic" coffee in like sixty countries across the world. And then maybe you think that the immutability of the global corp menu makes their offerings more authentic than the ever-shifting cooking habits of any given population. And then maybe you should give up thinking about any of it because no food is authentic in any meaningful sense above a personal level.
If there is not, then Starbucks is the most authentic coffee, Subway the most authentic US sandwich, and Pizza Hut the most authentic pizza.
That is correct.
posted by FakeFreyja at 2:03 PM on December 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
Not really. I mean, the most "authentic" Russian food would probably be the food most commonly enjoyed by the people of Russia, and the same holds true here. But then you get into the globalization of the food industry, and maybe Starbucks becomes the "authentic" coffee in like sixty countries across the world. And then maybe you think that the immutability of the global corp menu makes their offerings more authentic than the ever-shifting cooking habits of any given population. And then maybe you should give up thinking about any of it because no food is authentic in any meaningful sense above a personal level.
If there is not, then Starbucks is the most authentic coffee, Subway the most authentic US sandwich, and Pizza Hut the most authentic pizza.
That is correct.
posted by FakeFreyja at 2:03 PM on December 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
Is it made with care? Is it served well? Does it have interesting flavour(s) that you can't get 18 other places? Then it's a win. "Authentic" can go screw a boot. sure it needs some kind of label for calibration else everyplace would just be called "Food Restaurant" which is dumb.
I am fortunate to live in a city that has a wide range of ethnic food available. Obviously recipes are altered to reflect local food markets and available produce, and there's always some flash in the pan concept out there (20 years ago it was The Coming of the Sushi, 10 years ago it was The Coming of the Shwarma, nowadays it's Holy Shit Ramen Everywhere and If It Ain't Ramen, it's Bao).
The most obvious gauge to me has always been "does this restaurant claim to be adjacent to food culture X, and if so is it full of people adjacent to nationality X? if so, my odds are good I am about to eat some good X." Other than that, if it's tasty in the face hole, it's a win. Not sure what authentic means in that context but I am pleased to report I eat more good meals than bad ones.
posted by hearthpig at 2:30 PM on December 16, 2019
I am fortunate to live in a city that has a wide range of ethnic food available. Obviously recipes are altered to reflect local food markets and available produce, and there's always some flash in the pan concept out there (20 years ago it was The Coming of the Sushi, 10 years ago it was The Coming of the Shwarma, nowadays it's Holy Shit Ramen Everywhere and If It Ain't Ramen, it's Bao).
The most obvious gauge to me has always been "does this restaurant claim to be adjacent to food culture X, and if so is it full of people adjacent to nationality X? if so, my odds are good I am about to eat some good X." Other than that, if it's tasty in the face hole, it's a win. Not sure what authentic means in that context but I am pleased to report I eat more good meals than bad ones.
posted by hearthpig at 2:30 PM on December 16, 2019
Being an immigrant into this country; I see both sides of it. On the one hand; being from South India; it always bothered me that the typical Indian restaurant in this country was ... not just North Indian but very Punjab/Delhi centered. Even now if you go to any "typical Indian restaurant", it is pretty much the same menu. The it hit me that this is the same with other restaurants. The neighborhood Thai or Chinese restaurants are the same. The same menus pretty much everywhere. I realized this was a response to the situation they were in. They wanted to make food that was widely accessible and identifiable. "Authenticity" be damned. This was the case till recently when you started getting more 'authentic' places especially in the enclaves. Thai restaurants that had a "thai only" menu (that got translated and started getting invaded by foodies with the translated menu in hand :-) ). Chinese restaurants that had a Chinese only menu had the same thing happening to them. Indian restaurants started getting more regional and more diverse, especially in the suburbs where most Indians live. Even now, the best Indian restaurants in the Chicago area are in the suburbs.
Now I think of authenticity as places that serve food where people of that culture flock to. The best Keralite place in Chicago is run by a Korean woman! You wouldn't know when you eat the food.
posted by indianbadger1 at 2:44 PM on December 16, 2019 [4 favorites]
Now I think of authenticity as places that serve food where people of that culture flock to. The best Keralite place in Chicago is run by a Korean woman! You wouldn't know when you eat the food.
posted by indianbadger1 at 2:44 PM on December 16, 2019 [4 favorites]
It can be interesting how the journey a kind of food takes shapes its perceived origin / authenticity.
In America, ramen is considered Japanese food. But many Japanese I know consider it Chinese food (which it is, originally). Now, the ramen we eat in America is definitely "Japanese style" ramen, but is it "authentic" Japanese food? Can it be, if its not even really Japanese food to begin with?
[I think the Western analogy would be a country going crazy for American style pizza --- is it American food? Italian food? Neither?]
posted by thefoxgod at 2:51 PM on December 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
In America, ramen is considered Japanese food. But many Japanese I know consider it Chinese food (which it is, originally). Now, the ramen we eat in America is definitely "Japanese style" ramen, but is it "authentic" Japanese food? Can it be, if its not even really Japanese food to begin with?
[I think the Western analogy would be a country going crazy for American style pizza --- is it American food? Italian food? Neither?]
posted by thefoxgod at 2:51 PM on December 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
No worries, Sysco Foods has you covered with both kinds of multicultural cuisines: Hispanic and Italian (coming soon)!
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:53 PM on December 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:53 PM on December 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
guess i'm class-signaling when i am infuriated at the inauthentic brined shit that passes for "kimchi", the new trendy "superfood" for the white good totally anti-racist liberal foodies who invariably thought it smelled disgusting when i was a child
Isn’t that just “bad” kimchi? I dislike it as well, because it’s bad, not because it’s inauthentic.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 3:10 PM on December 16, 2019
Isn’t that just “bad” kimchi? I dislike it as well, because it’s bad, not because it’s inauthentic.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 3:10 PM on December 16, 2019
The problem with "it's just bad vs good quality food" is that it deletes the cultural aspect of it. This is like some people's response to racism: rather than accept that it exists and matters, they want to practice color-blind racism by not having to discuss raciality. Throwing out the word authenticity without coming up with a better culturally-sensitive concept that provides an abstraction for talking about cultural narratives around food and evaluating those in relation to what the restaurant industry produces is kind of like that. Even the conclusion of this particular article does not go as far as to suggest that the concept of authenticity itself is to blame.
posted by polymodus at 3:25 PM on December 16, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by polymodus at 3:25 PM on December 16, 2019 [6 favorites]
In America, ramen is considered Japanese food. But many Japanese I know consider it Chinese food (which it is, originally). Now, the ramen we eat in America is definitely "Japanese style" ramen, but is it "authentic" Japanese food? Can it be, if its not even really Japanese food to begin with?
That's a really great example and reminds of when we have visitors over from Asia and we take them out for sushi, and there's a particular place we like that serves California rolls and Dragon rolls and so forth. But a few times the visitors have asked for traditional sushi, which a Dragon roll or anything heavily sauced is not, and is rather foreign to them. I try to explain to them that for example the California roll which has avocado in it was actually invented by a Vancouver chef and is characteristic of the West Coast style Japanese food that we've all come to enjoy; it's different than the style of classic sushi they are accustomed to in SE Asia. And hopefully that frames/primes them to be more open to the local offerings here.
posted by polymodus at 3:41 PM on December 16, 2019
That's a really great example and reminds of when we have visitors over from Asia and we take them out for sushi, and there's a particular place we like that serves California rolls and Dragon rolls and so forth. But a few times the visitors have asked for traditional sushi, which a Dragon roll or anything heavily sauced is not, and is rather foreign to them. I try to explain to them that for example the California roll which has avocado in it was actually invented by a Vancouver chef and is characteristic of the West Coast style Japanese food that we've all come to enjoy; it's different than the style of classic sushi they are accustomed to in SE Asia. And hopefully that frames/primes them to be more open to the local offerings here.
posted by polymodus at 3:41 PM on December 16, 2019
Maybe it's time to ditch the term "authenticity" – along with its considerable baggage – and completely reframe the conversation.
Maybe we should start thinking in terms of different traditions of a given cuisine. None more authentic or legitimate than another – just different.
American Chinese cuisine bears little resemblance to the Cantonese cuisine from which it evolved. In that sense, it's not "authentic".
But Chi-Am cuisine has become its own tradition – and it's now possible to speak (wrongheadedly, perhaps) about "authentic" Chi-Am food.
Similar things can be said about the Jewish and Italian delis of NYC, or Tex-Mex and Southwestern cuisine.
In every case, what began as an "inauthentic" adaptation of an existing tradition, in order to suit local tastes and ingredients, has become an "authentic" tradition of its own. And whether you choose to invoke the term "authenticity" or not, I think there is something specially compelling about these traditions. They aren't just one chef peddling their own idiosyncratic combination of ingredients. They're cultural phenomena.
Which brings me to linguistics.
Here's the first thing a professional linguist will tell you: there is no "proper" or "improper" form of English (or of any other language, for that matter). There are only different dialects. Grade-school teachers drill into our heads that one dialect is the "correct" one, and that others (those spoken by less privileged groups) are "wrong" – but there's zero scientific basis for this. Linguists don't prescribe – they describe.
(This doesn't mean that there are no rules – only that there are different sets of rules. "He be reading comic books" violates the grammar of Standard American English – which expects "he reads comic books" – but is completely grammatical in African-American Vernacular English. On the other hand, the sentence "He comic reads books" isn't grammatical in any dialect.)
Similarly: you can make tacos with soft tortillas and carne asada, or you can make tacos with crunchy shells and hamburger meat. (But you can't make tacos with rye bread and turkey bacon. Not until that preparation emerges as a recognizable tradition, which people collectively acknowledge as "tacos".)
The cuisine/language metaphor breaks down around the edges, as all metaphors do. But it allows us to acknowledge that there's something particularly interesting about traditions which have endured the test of time, and which have cultural meaning for large numbers of people – while avoiding the fallacy that there's One True Way to prepare any given cuisine. I'm glad for Cajun English and Scottish English and Jamaican Patois, and I'm glad for Mexican-style tacos and crunchy tacos.
(Of course, there's also something interesting about food that deliberately strays from tradition. Just as there's something interesting about pidgins, creoles, and conlangs.)
posted by escape from the potato planet at 3:52 PM on December 16, 2019 [8 favorites]
Maybe we should start thinking in terms of different traditions of a given cuisine. None more authentic or legitimate than another – just different.
American Chinese cuisine bears little resemblance to the Cantonese cuisine from which it evolved. In that sense, it's not "authentic".
But Chi-Am cuisine has become its own tradition – and it's now possible to speak (wrongheadedly, perhaps) about "authentic" Chi-Am food.
Similar things can be said about the Jewish and Italian delis of NYC, or Tex-Mex and Southwestern cuisine.
In every case, what began as an "inauthentic" adaptation of an existing tradition, in order to suit local tastes and ingredients, has become an "authentic" tradition of its own. And whether you choose to invoke the term "authenticity" or not, I think there is something specially compelling about these traditions. They aren't just one chef peddling their own idiosyncratic combination of ingredients. They're cultural phenomena.
Which brings me to linguistics.
Here's the first thing a professional linguist will tell you: there is no "proper" or "improper" form of English (or of any other language, for that matter). There are only different dialects. Grade-school teachers drill into our heads that one dialect is the "correct" one, and that others (those spoken by less privileged groups) are "wrong" – but there's zero scientific basis for this. Linguists don't prescribe – they describe.
(This doesn't mean that there are no rules – only that there are different sets of rules. "He be reading comic books" violates the grammar of Standard American English – which expects "he reads comic books" – but is completely grammatical in African-American Vernacular English. On the other hand, the sentence "He comic reads books" isn't grammatical in any dialect.)
Similarly: you can make tacos with soft tortillas and carne asada, or you can make tacos with crunchy shells and hamburger meat. (But you can't make tacos with rye bread and turkey bacon. Not until that preparation emerges as a recognizable tradition, which people collectively acknowledge as "tacos".)
The cuisine/language metaphor breaks down around the edges, as all metaphors do. But it allows us to acknowledge that there's something particularly interesting about traditions which have endured the test of time, and which have cultural meaning for large numbers of people – while avoiding the fallacy that there's One True Way to prepare any given cuisine. I'm glad for Cajun English and Scottish English and Jamaican Patois, and I'm glad for Mexican-style tacos and crunchy tacos.
(Of course, there's also something interesting about food that deliberately strays from tradition. Just as there's something interesting about pidgins, creoles, and conlangs.)
posted by escape from the potato planet at 3:52 PM on December 16, 2019 [8 favorites]
[jayne] I could stand to hear more about those tacos. [/jayne]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:36 PM on December 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:36 PM on December 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
Who Decides What Makes a Food "Authentic"?
Me!
Cincinatti Chili is bullshit!
posted by aspersioncast at 5:07 PM on December 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
Me!
Cincinatti Chili is bullshit!
posted by aspersioncast at 5:07 PM on December 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Couple comments deleted. Folks, please be mindful of context; this thread isn't a good place for dad-joke one-liners that ignore the actual discussion taking place.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 5:18 PM on December 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 5:18 PM on December 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
My family makes and eats Korean food almost daily. None of us are Korean. When my children were born, I worked for a Korean company and I was living in both Seoul and Beijing. They grew up eating Korean food, so it’s what they want. I spent over a decade eating it almost exclusively so it’s what I want too. When we make it, we are trying to capture the flavors from Korea that we love; however, we also want the flavors from Beijing, Sichuan, Dongbei, Seoul and Southern New Mexico. In particular this means that we don’t eat just one kimchi, just like in Korea we eat several. I would say all are authentic—even the Hatch roasted green Chile kimchi. In Korea itself the majority of packaged kimchi comes from China. We don’t really think about any of it as authentic or fusion. It’s just what we eat.
posted by wobumingbai at 9:03 PM on December 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by wobumingbai at 9:03 PM on December 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
But you have argued above that an authenticity exists specific to kimchi that is defined by the spirit of the ajumma. I disagree and brought up packaged kimchi in Korea because I have heard the same argument there by people buying kimchi that has no spirit of the Ajuma; if anything it has the dongbei spirit of the laolao. I think this is authentic. I think kimchi is the perfect example for the authenticity argument because of how frequently it pops up in Korea. Is Pyongyang, Dangdong, Busan, Shenyang, etc... Kimchi authentic? I’ve seen arguments all ways but most of the time the naysayers seem to have to fall back on regionalism/nationalism to argue their point.
This is also the only cuisine argument without white colonizers I’m familiar with. However I think that the authentic label ends up being used the same way. In Seoul people will seek out the North Korean refugee hole in the wall and declare it to be the most authentic because the North Koreans held on to their traditions better. Meanwhile also in Seoul the Chinese immigrant Kimchi maker will pretend they are from dongbei because the customers will feel their kimchi is really authentic because the people who made it are direct descendants from Kogoryo. This is a little better than when I first got to Seoul and the Chinese restaurant workers all had to pretend they were North Koreans.
I basically am trying to say all arguments for authenticity are based on some form of nationality or regionalism and are wrong. Don’t get me started on cold noodles.
posted by wobumingbai at 11:03 PM on December 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
This is also the only cuisine argument without white colonizers I’m familiar with. However I think that the authentic label ends up being used the same way. In Seoul people will seek out the North Korean refugee hole in the wall and declare it to be the most authentic because the North Koreans held on to their traditions better. Meanwhile also in Seoul the Chinese immigrant Kimchi maker will pretend they are from dongbei because the customers will feel their kimchi is really authentic because the people who made it are direct descendants from Kogoryo. This is a little better than when I first got to Seoul and the Chinese restaurant workers all had to pretend they were North Koreans.
I basically am trying to say all arguments for authenticity are based on some form of nationality or regionalism and are wrong. Don’t get me started on cold noodles.
posted by wobumingbai at 11:03 PM on December 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
I’m sorry for misunderstanding your point about authenticity. I think we may be arguing for the same definition but come from different sides of the planet geographically and culturally literally. I took your definition not as one that works for you but rather one that should cover all. It is a sore point with me as I frequently have to deal with people’s approach to my twins one of whom appears Asian and the other white.
posted by wobumingbai at 12:31 AM on December 17, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by wobumingbai at 12:31 AM on December 17, 2019 [1 favorite]
The basic issue is that the word "authenticity" is meaningless without a specific referent. The word has no meaning whatever in the abstract ("this food is authentic!"). The question is always "authentic to what?," and if you can identify the "what," you can have a meaningful conversation about that food. Without a specific referent (such as "lobster rolls made by a handful of coastal lobster shack restaurants in Southeastern Connecticut as prepared in the 1990s") the word "authentic" can only take on vague and stereotypical associations of culture, people, and place.
Also, having spent a decade or so deep in food history, what's interesting is that the more granular you get, the more variation you're going to find. So I can tell you about that "authentic" lobster roll, but then I also need to tell you about the change in suppliers that resulted in slightly different-textured bread rolls, the switch from CT to Maine lobster, the new cook's style who makes it with a lot more butter, and the fact that the two places in Noank make it differently and disparage the other place's. Which is the one true lobster roll? Neither. Even with a specific referent, it's always a highly subjective discussion about style, historical conditions, and individual agency.
posted by Miko at 4:30 AM on December 17, 2019 [5 favorites]
Also, having spent a decade or so deep in food history, what's interesting is that the more granular you get, the more variation you're going to find. So I can tell you about that "authentic" lobster roll, but then I also need to tell you about the change in suppliers that resulted in slightly different-textured bread rolls, the switch from CT to Maine lobster, the new cook's style who makes it with a lot more butter, and the fact that the two places in Noank make it differently and disparage the other place's. Which is the one true lobster roll? Neither. Even with a specific referent, it's always a highly subjective discussion about style, historical conditions, and individual agency.
posted by Miko at 4:30 AM on December 17, 2019 [5 favorites]
When I lived in Singapore I discovered that I sorely missed markers of home - particularly food. Grumpybearbride and I were out one weekend morning, traipsing through a mall (as one does) and came across a place called Hip Diner USA.
"Perfect!" I said. "Let's get some breakfast."
We sat down and looked at the menu. It was not what we expected, but they had waffles, so we ordered them. The available toppings were... peanut butter & jelly. They didn't have any maple syrup (imitation or otherwise) or butter. They did have some strawberry syrup for another dish of which I got a small plastic cup. Overall it was a spectacularly underwhelming aside from the unexpectedly novel experience of having genuinely inauthentic breakfast waffles.
The Kenny Roger's Roasters we eventually went to, on the other hand, was spectacular.
Hip Diner USA has since closed.
The mall in question was Bugis Junction. AKA Bugis Bugis.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:05 AM on December 17, 2019 [1 favorite]
"Perfect!" I said. "Let's get some breakfast."
We sat down and looked at the menu. It was not what we expected, but they had waffles, so we ordered them. The available toppings were... peanut butter & jelly. They didn't have any maple syrup (imitation or otherwise) or butter. They did have some strawberry syrup for another dish of which I got a small plastic cup. Overall it was a spectacularly underwhelming aside from the unexpectedly novel experience of having genuinely inauthentic breakfast waffles.
The Kenny Roger's Roasters we eventually went to, on the other hand, was spectacular.
Hip Diner USA has since closed.
The mall in question was Bugis Junction. AKA Bugis Bugis.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:05 AM on December 17, 2019 [1 favorite]
he he he ersatz American food by a hawker stand like the Western corners the food courts have, usually run by Malay families
posted by Mrs Potato at 10:09 AM on December 17, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Mrs Potato at 10:09 AM on December 17, 2019 [1 favorite]
It takes care of the halal problem in an inclusive way
posted by Mrs Potato at 10:10 AM on December 17, 2019
posted by Mrs Potato at 10:10 AM on December 17, 2019
Related: "I Walked 600 Miles Across Japan for Pizza Toast:
One man’s epic quest to savor the fading beauty of Japan’s traditional cafes — kissaten — and their signature snack."
And yes, pizza toast is exactly what it sounds like.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 10:33 AM on December 17, 2019
One man’s epic quest to savor the fading beauty of Japan’s traditional cafes — kissaten — and their signature snack."
And yes, pizza toast is exactly what it sounds like.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 10:33 AM on December 17, 2019
When I was growing up, having immigrated, my mother used to smuggle 6 or 8 cans of an ingredient for a family dish across the border so that we could enjoy it at holidays.
The border was the US-Canada border, and the ingredient was French's Onion Rings, to be added to Campbell's Cream of Mushroom Soup and frozen french-cut green beans. (French's are now available in Canada no problem.)
No one has ever been awed at the authenticity of that dish...nor have I ever been told to go back to my country, asked where I'm from, or told that my native dishes stink. Because I'm white and my immigrant experience was from the United Stated to Canada. So...yeah I think there is a larger story here about language and writing about food.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:47 AM on December 17, 2019 [2 favorites]
The border was the US-Canada border, and the ingredient was French's Onion Rings, to be added to Campbell's Cream of Mushroom Soup and frozen french-cut green beans. (French's are now available in Canada no problem.)
No one has ever been awed at the authenticity of that dish...nor have I ever been told to go back to my country, asked where I'm from, or told that my native dishes stink. Because I'm white and my immigrant experience was from the United Stated to Canada. So...yeah I think there is a larger story here about language and writing about food.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:47 AM on December 17, 2019 [2 favorites]
anem0ne
@indianbadger1, are you referring to thattu? that place is great! also i think her husband is from kerala?
Yup. I like that the food tastes authentic; but I also like that she is putting her own spin on things that are amenable to being tweaked. Like the Kimchee Upma.
If anyone goes there, get the Masala Biscuits to go. It goes better with good spicy Indian Masala Chai; which unfortunately Thattu does not offer.
posted by indianbadger1 at 11:10 AM on December 17, 2019 [1 favorite]
@indianbadger1, are you referring to thattu? that place is great! also i think her husband is from kerala?
Yup. I like that the food tastes authentic; but I also like that she is putting her own spin on things that are amenable to being tweaked. Like the Kimchee Upma.
If anyone goes there, get the Masala Biscuits to go. It goes better with good spicy Indian Masala Chai; which unfortunately Thattu does not offer.
posted by indianbadger1 at 11:10 AM on December 17, 2019 [1 favorite]
Chili peppers didn't exist in Eurasian cuisines before the sixteenth century, and well after that in most of them. Ditto corn, tomatoes and potatoes, but even later for the last. The reverse is true for most alliums, wheat, many common vegetables.
Not sure what that says about authenticity in food.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:28 PM on December 17, 2019 [1 favorite]
Not sure what that says about authenticity in food.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:28 PM on December 17, 2019 [1 favorite]
re: another take on 'authenticity'
so i read this the other day: "Consumers have been increasingly gravitating toward healthier and more natural flavors, a trend that the companies said played an important factor in their decision to merge. Natural flavors are 'the dominating segment' in the global food flavoring industry, accounting for over 50% of the market in 2018..."
and this enlightening phrase: "According to the presentation, the two companies would combine knowhow to serve the fast-growing meatless meat market. If you think about it, it's a good combination: as the name suggests, IFF specialises in flavour and fragrances used in food while DuPont's N&B business is all about textures."
which got me thinking, if cooking is alchemy, flavor chemists and food scientists (maybe! ;) make the best chefs?
so i read this the other day: "Consumers have been increasingly gravitating toward healthier and more natural flavors, a trend that the companies said played an important factor in their decision to merge. Natural flavors are 'the dominating segment' in the global food flavoring industry, accounting for over 50% of the market in 2018..."
and this enlightening phrase: "According to the presentation, the two companies would combine knowhow to serve the fast-growing meatless meat market. If you think about it, it's a good combination: as the name suggests, IFF specialises in flavour and fragrances used in food while DuPont's N&B business is all about textures."
which got me thinking, if cooking is alchemy, flavor chemists and food scientists (maybe! ;) make the best chefs?
- Of Flavors and Flavorists - "Natural flavors. Artificial flavors. The terms seemed to be rather...how do you say? Vague."
- What's the difference between natural and artificial? - "'Natural' and 'artificial' flavors aren't as different as you might expect. The distinction is based more on how the flavor has been made than on what it actually contains. Natural and artificial flavors sometimes contain exactly the same chemicals, produced through different processes."
Burhanistan, that halal comment was very specific to food courts in neighbourhoods with different mix of backgrounds than others, in singapore housing development blocks
posted by Mrs Potato at 2:59 AM on December 18, 2019
posted by Mrs Potato at 2:59 AM on December 18, 2019
I’m sorry for offending with my comment. I had no intention to offend and am very regretful I did. I find, I did not write clearly enough. When I said we were from two different sides of the planet geographically and culturally, I meant I was coming from an Asian perspective and place and not considering the American experience of anem0ne. I am currently physically in America but still think of Beijing and Seoul as home. Once again, sorry for any pain I caused, I was thoughtless for posting publicly without including enough context to help people understand the perspective I was coming from. I’ve spent the majority of my adult life working to understand that there are no Asian-Americans there are just Americans. I am very profoundly sorry that comment went against that.
posted by wobumingbai at 11:26 PM on December 18, 2019
posted by wobumingbai at 11:26 PM on December 18, 2019
I’ve spent the majority of my adult life working to understand that there are no Asian-Americans there are just Americans.
To paraphrase Claudia Rankine, if you claim you are colorblind, then it also means you can't see racism, and I cannot trust you to be an ally. If you don't see Asian Americanness, then to me it also means that you can't see racism or orientalism.
posted by suedehead at 6:07 PM on December 19, 2019 [5 favorites]
To paraphrase Claudia Rankine, if you claim you are colorblind, then it also means you can't see racism, and I cannot trust you to be an ally. If you don't see Asian Americanness, then to me it also means that you can't see racism or orientalism.
posted by suedehead at 6:07 PM on December 19, 2019 [5 favorites]
Alliums are endemic worldwide
Hence "most" above - AFAICT it gets really complicated if you start scratching at it.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:30 PM on December 19, 2019
Hence "most" above - AFAICT it gets really complicated if you start scratching at it.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:30 PM on December 19, 2019
hot take, real take:
Authenticity discourse is really orientalism mixed with intellectualized consumption culture.
Intellectualized consumption culture is when consumption becomes intellectualized - like foodie culture, or the worst of music and literary culture -- "Have you heard the new XYZ? oh, you haven't read/listened to early X? It's so much better than their later work, which everyone knows." "Have you eaten X? Oh, it's so much more authentic than Y, which everyone knows is just americanized fake Z food"
See, food isn't just a consumption activity, it's not some sort of fun cool experience to have, like a concert or a book. A food only becomes an "experience" when the day-to-day emotional lives of the people who live with it are denied or forgotten in the name of "newness". People who are obsessed with trying "new cuisines" for the sake of newness makes me skeptical -- are they interested in food and people, or are they interested in fetishizing the Other by casting it as distinct from your experience?
It's a bit complicated because for diaspora communities, authenticity can also be a shorthand for "home" or "connection to ancestors" or "tradition". But there's no such thing as authentic food, ever, for anyone. Authentic food is like saying "authentic language". What's authentic English? Can anyone say?
And then on top of that there's people who say "oh, nothing is authentic, so I'm just going to make shit up and call it X food, etc", which is also bizarre and disrespectful. It's like a high-schooler going "language is constructed and not real so I can say whatever gibberish I want and it's still language"
Authenticity discourse weirds me out.
posted by suedehead at 12:03 PM on December 20, 2019 [3 favorites]
Authenticity discourse is really orientalism mixed with intellectualized consumption culture.
Intellectualized consumption culture is when consumption becomes intellectualized - like foodie culture, or the worst of music and literary culture -- "Have you heard the new XYZ? oh, you haven't read/listened to early X? It's so much better than their later work, which everyone knows." "Have you eaten X? Oh, it's so much more authentic than Y, which everyone knows is just americanized fake Z food"
See, food isn't just a consumption activity, it's not some sort of fun cool experience to have, like a concert or a book. A food only becomes an "experience" when the day-to-day emotional lives of the people who live with it are denied or forgotten in the name of "newness". People who are obsessed with trying "new cuisines" for the sake of newness makes me skeptical -- are they interested in food and people, or are they interested in fetishizing the Other by casting it as distinct from your experience?
It's a bit complicated because for diaspora communities, authenticity can also be a shorthand for "home" or "connection to ancestors" or "tradition". But there's no such thing as authentic food, ever, for anyone. Authentic food is like saying "authentic language". What's authentic English? Can anyone say?
And then on top of that there's people who say "oh, nothing is authentic, so I'm just going to make shit up and call it X food, etc", which is also bizarre and disrespectful. It's like a high-schooler going "language is constructed and not real so I can say whatever gibberish I want and it's still language"
Authenticity discourse weirds me out.
posted by suedehead at 12:03 PM on December 20, 2019 [3 favorites]
« Older Alternative Timeline Dinosaurs | Like "Sentimental Man" or "Mr. Cellophane" Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
For some reason this made me think about how the italian spoken by a lot of italian-americans is the now antiquated southern italian dialect that was spoken by the population that immigrated to the USA in the late 1800s and early 1900s, before italy's many dialects started to fuse into 'standard italian' throughout the 20th century. how the process of immigration forked the language and put one branch of it into a form of stasis.
because language, like cuisine, is dynamic and constantly changing.
so I wonder if something similar happens with cuisine - that what some people consider to be a falsely static 'authentic' cuisine is a set of things briefly frozen by an important change in circumstance.
posted by entropone at 9:46 AM on December 16, 2019 [15 favorites]