The story of your life, the story you tell yourself
December 21, 2019 1:49 AM Subscribe
In This Is All - "There is another kind of memory that develops considerably later in human children, and never (as far as we know) in nonhuman animals. This is called autobiographical memory. What is the difference between episodic and autobiographical memory? In autobiographical memory, you appear in the frame of the memory."
Definitely more the episodic type, me. Overarching goal in life is to do and cause as little work as possible, where "work" is defined as stuff that needs effort expended but isn't particularly interesting in and of itself. Could not give two shits whether or not my life as a whole, or life in general for that matter, has some kind of meaning. Would far rather than it had an enriching; happiest when leaving spaces in slightly better condition than they were on entry.
(rolls over in mud, grunts contentedly)
posted by flabdablet at 4:33 AM on December 21, 2019 [9 favorites]
(rolls over in mud, grunts contentedly)
posted by flabdablet at 4:33 AM on December 21, 2019 [9 favorites]
Metafilter: "Whatever it is, it had better be something good if it is to compensate us for missing out on the pig’s felicity."
posted by zaixfeep at 4:33 AM on December 21, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by zaixfeep at 4:33 AM on December 21, 2019 [4 favorites]
Flabdablet, look for "SOME MEFITE" written in spider silk above your doorway soon :-) ...
posted by zaixfeep at 4:37 AM on December 21, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by zaixfeep at 4:37 AM on December 21, 2019 [6 favorites]
Turns out I'm Mr. Episodic
this also explains that feeling that i get looking at a picture of myself (even one from 4 seconds ago)...
like I'm looking at a 2 dimensional representation of me, but like the picture is not complete, so it takes me a second to recognize that's who it's supposed to look like - me.
posted by some loser at 5:07 AM on December 21, 2019
this also explains that feeling that i get looking at a picture of myself (even one from 4 seconds ago)...
like I'm looking at a 2 dimensional representation of me, but like the picture is not complete, so it takes me a second to recognize that's who it's supposed to look like - me.
posted by some loser at 5:07 AM on December 21, 2019
They lost me at still holding up the mirror test as something that hasn't been dismantled in over a dozen ways.
posted by Harry Caul at 5:16 AM on December 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Harry Caul at 5:16 AM on December 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
Neither, for what it's worth, do I "see myself within the frame" of any memory I have managed to bring to mind for testing after reading the article. Closest I get is a feeling of fairly intense present shame associated with the occasional memory of times I've treated people I loved with less respect than they were due. This strikes me as a healthy reminder not to behave like such a shithead should similar circumstances recur.
That I am supposed to be something called a "self" which is in some way different and distinct from my physical being, and that without such a thing I am broken or deficient or in some way less than human, is an idea I examined closely and then summarily rejected at least twenty-five years ago after some very useful psychedelics had helped nudge me toward noticing many of the howling contradictions one is forced to ignore in order to maintain that view.
It strikes me as the most toxic kind of horseshit, I am completely convinced that it underlies the bulk of chronic anxiety and quite a lot of depression besides, and I find myself baffled and frankly somewhat annoyed when folks who claim to be serious about their psychiatric and/or philosophical practice seem so keen to keep on recommending it.
I am here. I have memories and expectations. How is that not enough?
posted by flabdablet at 5:19 AM on December 21, 2019 [15 favorites]
That I am supposed to be something called a "self" which is in some way different and distinct from my physical being, and that without such a thing I am broken or deficient or in some way less than human, is an idea I examined closely and then summarily rejected at least twenty-five years ago after some very useful psychedelics had helped nudge me toward noticing many of the howling contradictions one is forced to ignore in order to maintain that view.
It strikes me as the most toxic kind of horseshit, I am completely convinced that it underlies the bulk of chronic anxiety and quite a lot of depression besides, and I find myself baffled and frankly somewhat annoyed when folks who claim to be serious about their psychiatric and/or philosophical practice seem so keen to keep on recommending it.
I am here. I have memories and expectations. How is that not enough?
posted by flabdablet at 5:19 AM on December 21, 2019 [15 favorites]
The fucking agony people put themselves through and the knots they tie themselves in, trying to work out what rules they need to follow to set their immortal souls up for an eternal afterlife that doesn't involve being in Hell?
That's Hell right here right now, and it's so completely avoidable. Just stop believing the lies you've been told about what kind of thing you are.
posted by flabdablet at 5:22 AM on December 21, 2019 [4 favorites]
That's Hell right here right now, and it's so completely avoidable. Just stop believing the lies you've been told about what kind of thing you are.
posted by flabdablet at 5:22 AM on December 21, 2019 [4 favorites]
never (as far as we know) in nonhuman animals.
Could we not just as well say often (as far as we know) in nonhuman animals? I find the whole "This distinctively human form of memory" argument to be question-begging. I didn't see anything in the article beyond bald assertions that none of them have this capability. I doubt that there is any reliable way to test that.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 5:48 AM on December 21, 2019 [7 favorites]
Could we not just as well say often (as far as we know) in nonhuman animals? I find the whole "This distinctively human form of memory" argument to be question-begging. I didn't see anything in the article beyond bald assertions that none of them have this capability. I doubt that there is any reliable way to test that.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 5:48 AM on December 21, 2019 [7 favorites]
It's a weirdly framed article because if you read the whole thing, it's not really about the difference between human and animal memory except in a weirdly narrative sort of way to tie the real meat of the whole article (which is more about episodic vs autobiographical memory in humans) together?
posted by some loser at 5:52 AM on December 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by some loser at 5:52 AM on December 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
I find the whole "This distinctively human form of memory" argument to be question-begging.
"If lions could talk, we still wouldn't be able to understand them" -Wittgenstein
posted by StickyCarpet at 6:00 AM on December 21, 2019 [10 favorites]
"If lions could talk, we still wouldn't be able to understand them" -Wittgenstein
posted by StickyCarpet at 6:00 AM on December 21, 2019 [10 favorites]
I doubt that there is any reliable way to test that
Just apply standard research methods. White coat, survey form, clipboard, done. How much more definitive do you want?
If your test subjects are too shy to talk to graduate students, employ octopuses instead. Those things charge even less than students and they have brains in their arms so the work gets done eight times as fast.
posted by flabdablet at 6:29 AM on December 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
Just apply standard research methods. White coat, survey form, clipboard, done. How much more definitive do you want?
If your test subjects are too shy to talk to graduate students, employ octopuses instead. Those things charge even less than students and they have brains in their arms so the work gets done eight times as fast.
posted by flabdablet at 6:29 AM on December 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
This is fascinating to me - how memory works and shapes our selves, our personalities, our happiness.
I have vivid autobiographical memory. I underwent EMDR therapy for some specific shitty memories a couple years ago.
Before EMDR, those memories were like seeing the events first-person-shooter style. I was THERE, seeing it through my own eyes happen to me, at the childhood age I was in the memory.
When starting EMDR, I was worried these memories would disappear, even though they were unpleasant they were a part of who I am.
However, an unexpected thing happened - after several sessions, the perspective in the memories changed. Now, when I think of those memories, I have two perspectives.
One, it is more like watching a movie, seeing myself on screen at the age I was at the time - I am no longer experiencing the memory directly. The second perspective is that I am *in* the memory (on stage with the players including myself at the childhood age), but at the age I am now, presumably with the knowledge and skills I have at an older age.
And this was an interesting part of the article to me: "Developmental psychologists have studied how the style of maternal reminiscences affects a child’s autobiographical-memory skills. The more elaborative the mother’s style, the more detailed and coherent her child’s personal narratives tend to be."
My own mother when telling a story will recount dozens of inconsequential details. A 2 minute story is always a 10 minute story.
Interestingly, my experience of memory is similar - I can see almost every detail of important autobiographical memories. What people are wearing, the texture of carpet, room dimensions, colors.
If I had a construction team at my disposal, I'd be able to reconstruct rooms I was in from 30+ years ago. This seems both a blessing and a curse. A blessing when I'm feeling good about things. A curse when things feel darker.
posted by Uncle Glendinning at 8:02 AM on December 21, 2019 [9 favorites]
I have vivid autobiographical memory. I underwent EMDR therapy for some specific shitty memories a couple years ago.
Before EMDR, those memories were like seeing the events first-person-shooter style. I was THERE, seeing it through my own eyes happen to me, at the childhood age I was in the memory.
When starting EMDR, I was worried these memories would disappear, even though they were unpleasant they were a part of who I am.
However, an unexpected thing happened - after several sessions, the perspective in the memories changed. Now, when I think of those memories, I have two perspectives.
One, it is more like watching a movie, seeing myself on screen at the age I was at the time - I am no longer experiencing the memory directly. The second perspective is that I am *in* the memory (on stage with the players including myself at the childhood age), but at the age I am now, presumably with the knowledge and skills I have at an older age.
And this was an interesting part of the article to me: "Developmental psychologists have studied how the style of maternal reminiscences affects a child’s autobiographical-memory skills. The more elaborative the mother’s style, the more detailed and coherent her child’s personal narratives tend to be."
My own mother when telling a story will recount dozens of inconsequential details. A 2 minute story is always a 10 minute story.
Interestingly, my experience of memory is similar - I can see almost every detail of important autobiographical memories. What people are wearing, the texture of carpet, room dimensions, colors.
If I had a construction team at my disposal, I'd be able to reconstruct rooms I was in from 30+ years ago. This seems both a blessing and a curse. A blessing when I'm feeling good about things. A curse when things feel darker.
posted by Uncle Glendinning at 8:02 AM on December 21, 2019 [9 favorites]
Would far rather than it had an enriching; happiest when leaving spaces in slightly better condition than they were on entry.
That's a "meaning" for your life. Quite a good one, on my opinion.
posted by eviemath at 8:07 AM on December 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
That's a "meaning" for your life. Quite a good one, on my opinion.
posted by eviemath at 8:07 AM on December 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
This is why everyone hates moral philosophers! / Obligatory Good Place reference
The more memories I have to keep track of, the more I see my internal narrative as suspect. What I remember is not only subjective but becomes less accurate each time I recall it, apparently? In which case, I do better to remember mistakes I don't want to make again, skills I still need, and people I love, and not worry too much about the rest.
Women in general are not raised to see themselves as part of any grand heroic tale, so I think we suffer less from worry about that sort of thing.
posted by emjaybee at 8:22 AM on December 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
The more memories I have to keep track of, the more I see my internal narrative as suspect. What I remember is not only subjective but becomes less accurate each time I recall it, apparently? In which case, I do better to remember mistakes I don't want to make again, skills I still need, and people I love, and not worry too much about the rest.
Women in general are not raised to see themselves as part of any grand heroic tale, so I think we suffer less from worry about that sort of thing.
posted by emjaybee at 8:22 AM on December 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
I always found my great great grandmothers story of going to see the 1924 film 'Lincoln'. According to the newspaper she screamed when Lincoln was shot.
She thought it was captured on film even though she knew it wasn't. The factor I give is she attended a Lincoln rally as a child, which she remembered.
posted by clavdivs at 8:30 AM on December 21, 2019 [3 favorites]
She thought it was captured on film even though she knew it wasn't. The factor I give is she attended a Lincoln rally as a child, which she remembered.
posted by clavdivs at 8:30 AM on December 21, 2019 [3 favorites]
I've heard of this before but I hadn't heard confirming stories the way there are in this thread. So today I learned another way there are at least two kinds of people: ones with only first-person memories like me, and ones with at least one memory which is from a third-person perspective.
This does make sense to me since all memories are reprocessed and not "perfect", but to me it's also very alien that something that I haven't seen, heard or felt - an outside imagining of my self - would become part of my memory.
posted by lokta at 10:02 AM on December 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
This does make sense to me since all memories are reprocessed and not "perfect", but to me it's also very alien that something that I haven't seen, heard or felt - an outside imagining of my self - would become part of my memory.
posted by lokta at 10:02 AM on December 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
Also, the article's about a whole bunch of different things, and I hate how bad psychologists and philosophers are at anticipating difference between people!
posted by lokta at 10:07 AM on December 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by lokta at 10:07 AM on December 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
I have run around this particular maypole many times. I live in the episodic version, but not necessarily as the happy-go-lucky fool that Holt may have envisioned. I've long thought that events in my life were what they meant; once time's passage has moved me past them they became their meaning, and though they may be foundations upon which I build any future premise, they are smoke. How else could I account for the different versions I share with my military brethren? One thrived on that shit, while the other cringed. War is Hell. Or maybe it's just sleeping in the mud that's hell. Hell is the meaning, yet we get to choose the event to attach to it.
Some twenty five years after I shed myself of the Army I opened my notebooks and read what I wrote. I was both surprised and pleased to discover that I wasn't quite the idiot I remembered having been. I was an earnest lad, nineteen and twenty years old in one manifestation, then twenty to twenty five years old during another (I served for eight years). But the journal I kept in Vietnam revealed to the "I" who read it in 1990 that some of his memories didn't even happen to him. They were things he saw, or things he was told. Put that in your Narrative, Achilles.
I think my paradigm over all those years was more like Vonnegut's Billy Pilgrim than Achiles quest for narrational immortality. Unstuck in time. But the narration did change over time. I just couldn't see the subtle ways it happened until I read my journals. I went to some of the reunions. I swam in the heartily abridged war stories, the laughter, or the moody silence while something is being edited. Now we're stuck with whatever version the passage of time has provided us in which to compose our own heroic versions. Other meanings are buried, but come slithering out from under metaphorical rocks. But then my erstwhile brothers in arms and I have come to these independent versions the hard way. Plato is a fool. We are pigs. Happy fools.
In fact the narrative is illusory. Protagonists? Sure. For some--affectations, all. I'm left with a chain of self inventions, strings of adventures, one after the other, with interims of howling indecision and confusion. I tend to favor the idea discovered by some hippie, that the journey was the destination. After the journey is blessed oblivion.
The octopus doesn't get eight times the work done, just four, but he'll never understand what it's like to be left-handed.
posted by mule98J at 12:17 PM on December 21, 2019 [11 favorites]
Some twenty five years after I shed myself of the Army I opened my notebooks and read what I wrote. I was both surprised and pleased to discover that I wasn't quite the idiot I remembered having been. I was an earnest lad, nineteen and twenty years old in one manifestation, then twenty to twenty five years old during another (I served for eight years). But the journal I kept in Vietnam revealed to the "I" who read it in 1990 that some of his memories didn't even happen to him. They were things he saw, or things he was told. Put that in your Narrative, Achilles.
I think my paradigm over all those years was more like Vonnegut's Billy Pilgrim than Achiles quest for narrational immortality. Unstuck in time. But the narration did change over time. I just couldn't see the subtle ways it happened until I read my journals. I went to some of the reunions. I swam in the heartily abridged war stories, the laughter, or the moody silence while something is being edited. Now we're stuck with whatever version the passage of time has provided us in which to compose our own heroic versions. Other meanings are buried, but come slithering out from under metaphorical rocks. But then my erstwhile brothers in arms and I have come to these independent versions the hard way. Plato is a fool. We are pigs. Happy fools.
In fact the narrative is illusory. Protagonists? Sure. For some--affectations, all. I'm left with a chain of self inventions, strings of adventures, one after the other, with interims of howling indecision and confusion. I tend to favor the idea discovered by some hippie, that the journey was the destination. After the journey is blessed oblivion.
The octopus doesn't get eight times the work done, just four, but he'll never understand what it's like to be left-handed.
posted by mule98J at 12:17 PM on December 21, 2019 [11 favorites]
"...It feels authentic. And if you have authentic memories, you have real human responses. Wouldn’t you agree?
K: How can you tell the difference? Can you tell if something really happened?
Dr. Ana Stelline: They all think it’s about more detail. But that’s not how memory works. We recall with our feelings. Anything real should be a mess."
-Blade Runner:2049
'Actress Marilu Henner Helps Researchers Learn More About Memory.'
"Actress Marilu Henner, best known for her role as Elaine Nardo in the hit sitcom Taxi, has a highly superior autobiographical memory (HSAM), a rare condition shared by only 100 people worldwide."
posted by clavdivs at 1:11 PM on December 21, 2019 [3 favorites]
K: How can you tell the difference? Can you tell if something really happened?
Dr. Ana Stelline: They all think it’s about more detail. But that’s not how memory works. We recall with our feelings. Anything real should be a mess."
-Blade Runner:2049
'Actress Marilu Henner Helps Researchers Learn More About Memory.'
"Actress Marilu Henner, best known for her role as Elaine Nardo in the hit sitcom Taxi, has a highly superior autobiographical memory (HSAM), a rare condition shared by only 100 people worldwide."
posted by clavdivs at 1:11 PM on December 21, 2019 [3 favorites]
get eight times the work done, just four, but he'll never understand what it's like to be left-handed.
This precludes that said octopi does not know what the left is.
Most likely reacts in degrees rather then one side or another.
posted by clavdivs at 1:14 PM on December 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
This precludes that said octopi does not know what the left is.
Most likely reacts in degrees rather then one side or another.
posted by clavdivs at 1:14 PM on December 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
Throughout human history, we've constantly been trying to establish human exceptionalism (i.e. proof that humans are different from all other species in some sort of very fundamental, binary way) and it's almost always concocted self-serving rubbish.
A really good book I'd like to recommend is: Are we smart enough to know how smart animals are? Despite the catchy title, it goes into this topic with a good deal of rigor, seriousness, and examination of evidence.
posted by splitpeasoup at 1:39 PM on December 21, 2019 [3 favorites]
A really good book I'd like to recommend is: Are we smart enough to know how smart animals are? Despite the catchy title, it goes into this topic with a good deal of rigor, seriousness, and examination of evidence.
posted by splitpeasoup at 1:39 PM on December 21, 2019 [3 favorites]
"Not until the end of our preschool years do we knit up the past and present into something resembling a continuously existing self. And even at that point in our development, we do not get the chronology right."
-from link
Of course as this is linear in nature, the framework of most chronology. If episodic, itake an example from my mother's written observation via, ' the baby scrap book ': age 3: shows fantastic memory- remembers stain on PJs from 6 months back on a trip to uncle Doug's house. Episodic? Why recall stain if framework for recollection is not there. It's not flashbulb as it excludes surprise. Now remembering house routes and were the VW was parked at age 2 is episodic and the red VW would seem a help but not in Ann arbor, mi. Circa 1969.
Can't prove it but dogs have great sense of time, usually coupled with needs but notice when your late, food seems secondary, even potty for about 9.6 seconds.
posted by clavdivs at 2:10 PM on December 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
-from link
Of course as this is linear in nature, the framework of most chronology. If episodic, itake an example from my mother's written observation via, ' the baby scrap book ': age 3: shows fantastic memory- remembers stain on PJs from 6 months back on a trip to uncle Doug's house. Episodic? Why recall stain if framework for recollection is not there. It's not flashbulb as it excludes surprise. Now remembering house routes and were the VW was parked at age 2 is episodic and the red VW would seem a help but not in Ann arbor, mi. Circa 1969.
Can't prove it but dogs have great sense of time, usually coupled with needs but notice when your late, food seems secondary, even potty for about 9.6 seconds.
posted by clavdivs at 2:10 PM on December 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
I am so episodic, I'd never consider an autobiography, but I could do a sitcom with six seasons. In fact, in my previous residence after my disability/semi-retirement, I was known as King of the Anecdote. I think the emergence of Blogging supported my short-story-telling, but Twitter turned out too short a format for me (and 'Twitter Threads' seem just not right). And in my current situation, I am telling tales for every new doctor until they run out of time before I can explain the status of my symptoms, and seriously entertaining designated visitors who are supposed to cheer me up. It doesn't make it easier that I have had multiple identities (partly thanks to pen-names, DJ-names and other respectable aliases... I've changed more often than The Doctor on Doctor Who and even considered gender-changing: why can't Wendell become Wendy?). And the medical consensus is that I have a great memory in spite of all my "senior moments"; yes my IQ is still over 100, but that's down from a near-genius 140, and that is very frustrating. And my most vivid memories are tied to major events that are generally unrelated - we moved into the childhood home I remember most the day JFK was assassinated and my mother died the day Reagan was re-elected. Yep, I'm as episodic as Star Trek, just with more cast changes.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:44 PM on December 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:44 PM on December 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
If a lion could tell us of an autobiographical memory of looking at itself in a mirror... we would be in a Borges story.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 8:50 PM on December 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by thatwhichfalls at 8:50 PM on December 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
That's a "meaning" for your life
I don't think of it that way. It's policy, sure, developed over time and based on observation of feelings consequential to activity, but it's not something I'm ever going to be more than regretful about failures to execute; it's in no way definitive of who or what I am and it's not something my life is for.
When I see people using the idea of a meaning to their lives, it's generally in a context like "without X my life would have no meaning" and it's clear that a life with no meaning, in the view of the speaker, is somewhere between inconceivable and totally unacceptable. We're told over and over again that human beings are all engaged in a lifelong Search for Meaning, the clear implication being that no human life could ever conceivably be satisfactory until such a thing has been found, but my own life is a clear counterexample as I'm sure are the lives of countless others.
I was not "put on this earth in order to leave it a little better than I found it". That's just something I like to do as opportunities present themselves, and one policy among many that I recommend to others on the basis that perhaps they, too, will derive as much satisfaction from its successes as I have.
If I were to attempt to describe my life as a search for something, the only ongoing search I'm engaged in is not for anything like a meaning for my own existence; rather, I look for ways for people, myself included, to get what they want that cost less and work better than what they're currently doing. Much of the time, this comes down to finding ways not to waste things. Given the choice, it's often far easier to make production redundant than to seize control of its means.
posted by flabdablet at 12:17 AM on December 22, 2019 [3 favorites]
I don't think of it that way. It's policy, sure, developed over time and based on observation of feelings consequential to activity, but it's not something I'm ever going to be more than regretful about failures to execute; it's in no way definitive of who or what I am and it's not something my life is for.
When I see people using the idea of a meaning to their lives, it's generally in a context like "without X my life would have no meaning" and it's clear that a life with no meaning, in the view of the speaker, is somewhere between inconceivable and totally unacceptable. We're told over and over again that human beings are all engaged in a lifelong Search for Meaning, the clear implication being that no human life could ever conceivably be satisfactory until such a thing has been found, but my own life is a clear counterexample as I'm sure are the lives of countless others.
I was not "put on this earth in order to leave it a little better than I found it". That's just something I like to do as opportunities present themselves, and one policy among many that I recommend to others on the basis that perhaps they, too, will derive as much satisfaction from its successes as I have.
If I were to attempt to describe my life as a search for something, the only ongoing search I'm engaged in is not for anything like a meaning for my own existence; rather, I look for ways for people, myself included, to get what they want that cost less and work better than what they're currently doing. Much of the time, this comes down to finding ways not to waste things. Given the choice, it's often far easier to make production redundant than to seize control of its means.
posted by flabdablet at 12:17 AM on December 22, 2019 [3 favorites]
Life! Don't talk to me about life.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 6:04 AM on December 22, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Kirth Gerson at 6:04 AM on December 22, 2019 [1 favorite]
Of course, one could argue that cruelty always makes for a banal and derivative self-narrative. . .I'd be curious to hear that argument. It sounds like a rather challenging one to make.
posted by eotvos at 12:10 PM on December 23, 2019
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