We will never find dignity in air travel
February 20, 2020 2:57 PM Subscribe
You should just never do that, because we can all see you and feel a bit defiled by what we are witnessing, but even if you don’t care about how creepy you seem, you should still never, ever, ever do it, because as well as being bizarrely aggressive and somewhat frightening, it is undignified, and the margin of error here simply does not allow for it. Know that for the rest of your days you are going to feel hotly embarrassed about this thing you are doing now on the plane. Have some respect for your future self, and do not do it.
Beware, as my supreme confidence ensues:
One pays for one's seat
One is entitled to all aspects of one's seat.
One aspect is the ability to recline.
Done and Done.
posted by CheapB at 3:28 PM on February 20, 2020 [35 favorites]
One pays for one's seat
One is entitled to all aspects of one's seat.
One aspect is the ability to recline.
Done and Done.
posted by CheapB at 3:28 PM on February 20, 2020 [35 favorites]
Bump Bump Bump Bump
posted by pipeski at 3:34 PM on February 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by pipeski at 3:34 PM on February 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
Except the armrests. Those belong to the middle passenger.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 3:36 PM on February 20, 2020 [13 favorites]
posted by Big Al 8000 at 3:36 PM on February 20, 2020 [13 favorites]
dont argue people all views on this demean us
that dude totally needs to be pretator droned in public
posted by lalochezia at 3:36 PM on February 20, 2020 [8 favorites]
that dude totally needs to be pretator droned in public
posted by lalochezia at 3:36 PM on February 20, 2020 [8 favorites]
I kinda wish we could go back to the time when air travel was a luxury, rather than something we endure. I love flying, but at 6’5 there’s only a few seats I can afford that are comfortable, so I’m effectively locked out. However, I would not mind the extra expense if every seat was guaranteed adequate legroom and better service.
posted by drivingmenuts at 3:37 PM on February 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by drivingmenuts at 3:37 PM on February 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
I just find articles like this tiresome. Sure, it's fine to prefer the person in front of you doesn't recline, but the ridiculous insistence that your personal preference in the matter is some kind of moral code you can dictate to others is tedious. The seats are built to recline. If you are lucky, the person in front of you may not choose to do that, same as if you are lucky you may get an empty seat next to you. But in neither case are you entitled to them.
posted by tavella at 3:40 PM on February 20, 2020 [45 favorites]
posted by tavella at 3:40 PM on February 20, 2020 [45 favorites]
Remember that life is long, and that you are going to feel like an idiot about this every time you remember doing it, which will be often.This is projection. The author might remember such a transgression often; more-than-normally considerate people might, but I really doubt that most people who would commit the act will remember it often, if they even give it a second thought.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 3:40 PM on February 20, 2020 [7 favorites]
I used to fly quite often. I don't fly as much these days. Am I the only person here who doesn't really dislike the flying part so much as the airport part?
Also: the seats recline. As far back as I can remember flying in the 1980s, the seats reclined. Only recently do I read people freak out about the horror of someone reclining a seat 3.5 inches. It's not that bad. I recline. And I don't care if someone in front of me reclines, either. I'm 6 feet tall and 180lb FWIW, neither small nor large. My guess is the Internet has amplified the hell out of the minuscule issue of reclining seats and now Everyone Hates It.
It's a plane ride, people. Only a few hours out of your lives. I can't say I love being on a plane, but it's really not quite as miserable as I keep hearing about. It's a few of hours reading time in less-than-perfect comfort.
posted by SoberHighland at 3:42 PM on February 20, 2020 [12 favorites]
Also: the seats recline. As far back as I can remember flying in the 1980s, the seats reclined. Only recently do I read people freak out about the horror of someone reclining a seat 3.5 inches. It's not that bad. I recline. And I don't care if someone in front of me reclines, either. I'm 6 feet tall and 180lb FWIW, neither small nor large. My guess is the Internet has amplified the hell out of the minuscule issue of reclining seats and now Everyone Hates It.
It's a plane ride, people. Only a few hours out of your lives. I can't say I love being on a plane, but it's really not quite as miserable as I keep hearing about. It's a few of hours reading time in less-than-perfect comfort.
posted by SoberHighland at 3:42 PM on February 20, 2020 [12 favorites]
"...to prefer the person in front of you doesn't recline, but the ridiculous insistence that your personal preference in the matter is some kind of moral code"
I think it's seen a lot more (by some people) as "you don't be an asshole to me and I won't be an asshole to you". And I believe the person behind *can* ramp up the asshole wo being arrested. Personally, I've never felt those games were worthwhile but other people feel differently.
And no, I've known people (multiple) who wouldn't give a damn if you filmed them doing that.
posted by aleph at 3:45 PM on February 20, 2020
I think it's seen a lot more (by some people) as "you don't be an asshole to me and I won't be an asshole to you". And I believe the person behind *can* ramp up the asshole wo being arrested. Personally, I've never felt those games were worthwhile but other people feel differently.
And no, I've known people (multiple) who wouldn't give a damn if you filmed them doing that.
posted by aleph at 3:45 PM on February 20, 2020
There's a giant difference between "be an asshole" and "become violent and assault someone". If you're upset about someone reclining into your space, be an asshole if you want - yell, complain, whatever. As soon as you resort to violence, like, oh, REPEATEDLY PUNCHING THE BACK OF THE SEAT, you've lost whatever sympathy you might have gotten. You're a fucking adult. Adults aren't supposed to resolve conflicts through punching and physical intimidation.
posted by hanov3r at 3:50 PM on February 20, 2020 [29 favorites]
posted by hanov3r at 3:50 PM on February 20, 2020 [29 favorites]
They are not interested in sympathy. Not in these games. I'm done.
posted by aleph at 3:50 PM on February 20, 2020
posted by aleph at 3:50 PM on February 20, 2020
It's a few of hours reading time in less-than-perfect comfort.
Unfortunately for many of us it’s become “get on WiFi and be connected and work” time (not saying that’s a good thing - just the reality for frequent flyers who are finding it harder to avoid being connected and simply relaxing and are being made to treat their seat more as a desk in a shared office then 4 hours of dead time and I suspect is causing some of these issues.)
posted by inflatablekiwi at 3:52 PM on February 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
Unfortunately for many of us it’s become “get on WiFi and be connected and work” time (not saying that’s a good thing - just the reality for frequent flyers who are finding it harder to avoid being connected and simply relaxing and are being made to treat their seat more as a desk in a shared office then 4 hours of dead time and I suspect is causing some of these issues.)
posted by inflatablekiwi at 3:52 PM on February 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
"...made me sad how many people are just walking around ready to lash out against their own best interests."
Yep. :(
Most of the time they can't even see it. It's even worse when they can (and can't stop anyway).
posted by aleph at 3:55 PM on February 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
Yep. :(
Most of the time they can't even see it. It's even worse when they can (and can't stop anyway).
posted by aleph at 3:55 PM on February 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
I stopped competing in my sport recently partly because it required so much air travel and because flying is (a) innately undignified (b) horrible for the environment and (c) generally unpleasant. Also, people on crammed city buses behave better than people on planes do. Our impatience and entitlement, and the impatience and overwork of the people who are tending to us, make flying less fun than being on a public subway at rush hour. Plus you have to be on the darn plane so much longer than is reasonable.
So, yeah, I agree with the author.
posted by Peach at 3:58 PM on February 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
So, yeah, I agree with the author.
posted by Peach at 3:58 PM on February 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
Also: the seats recline. As far back as I can remember flying in the 1980s, the seats reclined. Only recently do I read people freak out about the horror of someone reclining a seat 3.5 inches.
Seat pitch in coach has also shrunk over the past 30 years. People didn’t complain about it as much back then because it wasn’t as much of a problem.
posted by Automocar at 4:00 PM on February 20, 2020 [37 favorites]
Seat pitch in coach has also shrunk over the past 30 years. People didn’t complain about it as much back then because it wasn’t as much of a problem.
posted by Automocar at 4:00 PM on February 20, 2020 [37 favorites]
One is entitled to all aspects of one's seat.
If one is entitled to all aspects of one's seat, surely one is entitled to the volume of physical space that comes with that seat. Reclining your seat increases your volume at the expense of the person behind you. This, in most cases but particularly in cases where the person behind you has not specifically ceded that volume to you, makes you an asshole.
The person behind you can potentially reclaim that volume by reclining their own seat, if they are not engaged in something (eating, drinking, working) that precludes reclining, if their seat is capable of reclining, and if they choose to themselves become an asshole by intruding on the space of the person behind them, thereby perpetuating the cycle of assholery.
Yes, it is a feature of your seat. Yes, you have the physical ability to do so. And yes, whatever your argument to the contrary, when done outside of the narrow constraints outlined above, reclining your seat into someone else's space makes you an asshole.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 4:00 PM on February 20, 2020 [52 favorites]
If one is entitled to all aspects of one's seat, surely one is entitled to the volume of physical space that comes with that seat. Reclining your seat increases your volume at the expense of the person behind you. This, in most cases but particularly in cases where the person behind you has not specifically ceded that volume to you, makes you an asshole.
The person behind you can potentially reclaim that volume by reclining their own seat, if they are not engaged in something (eating, drinking, working) that precludes reclining, if their seat is capable of reclining, and if they choose to themselves become an asshole by intruding on the space of the person behind them, thereby perpetuating the cycle of assholery.
Yes, it is a feature of your seat. Yes, you have the physical ability to do so. And yes, whatever your argument to the contrary, when done outside of the narrow constraints outlined above, reclining your seat into someone else's space makes you an asshole.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 4:00 PM on February 20, 2020 [52 favorites]
Only recently do I read people freak out about the horror of someone reclining a seat 3.5 inches. It's not that bad.
Seat pitch on most US carriers is in the 31-32 inch range, down from around 34-35 inches in the 1980s. (JetBlue retains a 34 inch seat pitch.) This is so that airlines can fit an extra row or two into economy; you know when an aircraft has been retrofitted because the windows don't line up with the seats anymore. A person reclining 3.5 inches is taking up >10% of the available space to the person behind them. That person cannot view their seatback entertainment anymore, cannot unfold their tray table, cannot read comfortably because their book is now shoved several inches closer to their face. And forget trying to use a laptop to actually work.
I'm 5'2" on a good day and fly several times a year. It's really uncomfortable when the person in front of me sits down and immediately reclines into my face. I'm not going to yell about it or be passive-aggressive, but I can see where the impulse is coming from. I don't even have the legroom problems of most people. If it's really just a couple hours non-redeye flight, just sit up straight like your grandmother taught you.
posted by basalganglia at 4:01 PM on February 20, 2020 [27 favorites]
Seat pitch on most US carriers is in the 31-32 inch range, down from around 34-35 inches in the 1980s. (JetBlue retains a 34 inch seat pitch.) This is so that airlines can fit an extra row or two into economy; you know when an aircraft has been retrofitted because the windows don't line up with the seats anymore. A person reclining 3.5 inches is taking up >10% of the available space to the person behind them. That person cannot view their seatback entertainment anymore, cannot unfold their tray table, cannot read comfortably because their book is now shoved several inches closer to their face. And forget trying to use a laptop to actually work.
I'm 5'2" on a good day and fly several times a year. It's really uncomfortable when the person in front of me sits down and immediately reclines into my face. I'm not going to yell about it or be passive-aggressive, but I can see where the impulse is coming from. I don't even have the legroom problems of most people. If it's really just a couple hours non-redeye flight, just sit up straight like your grandmother taught you.
posted by basalganglia at 4:01 PM on February 20, 2020 [27 favorites]
I haven't flown since around 2000. But easier and less painful ways of stopping behaviour you don't like are available. I always disliked the person in front of me declining their seat, because I am big and tall and found airplane seats difficult. I loved when they moved me to the emergency exit seat because they figured I'd get the door open in an emergency, and throw it a mile if needed. Anyways, if I went flying and someone reclined their seat, no problemo. I'd just start coughing. Maybe it is a cold, maybe the flu etc.
Dang, I'd mention a recent trip to China ;)
posted by baegucb at 4:02 PM on February 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
Dang, I'd mention a recent trip to China ;)
posted by baegucb at 4:02 PM on February 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
I’d pay a premium to sit in a section where everyone agrees not to recline, manspread, kick/punch seats (or allow their kids to do same), hum, whistle, carry on anything besides a personal item, jostle the headrests for stability* on the way to the lav, or order a Diet Coke.
*You steady yourself by touching the overhead lockers.
posted by armeowda at 4:03 PM on February 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
*You steady yourself by touching the overhead lockers.
posted by armeowda at 4:03 PM on February 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
I'm six feet tall, with a 34 inch inseam. I've had seats in front of me reclined. It's slightly less comfortable than not reclining, but whatever, man. Nothing about flying is as bad as people make it out to be.
posted by kevinbelt at 4:04 PM on February 20, 2020 [29 favorites]
posted by kevinbelt at 4:04 PM on February 20, 2020 [29 favorites]
Newer seats shift forward as they recline. This changes (almost) everything, although it is still just a tiny percent of seating currently available.
As for myself, reclining doesn't much decrease my discomfort, so I seldom bother with it. I do feel that it is a prerogative of a seat-holder to to avail themselves of the few comforts available to them, and this includes reclining. I am annoyed when the seat in front of me reclines at inopportune times (e.g., crunching my laptop that just barely fit already; when food is being served), but this is what booking steerage means. I accept it.
There seems to be a school of thought that you should ask the person behind you before reclining. That seems nice but impractical. I mean, I have never seen this done. It's a lovely thought, but it does not rise to the level of required etiquette.
But in this particular case, it seems clear that the guy behind was being antisocial. It also seems that the airline had no clear position on reclining policy. Maybe if a guy complains it's bad and a woman complains it's hysteria? I mean, either reclining is a thing or it isn't. Since it's an available service, a reasonable person would assume it's OK.
Airlines spend several minutes repeating rules and safety drills that rarely come up in practice. I support that because it probably increases survival in emergencies. But they could spend a few seconds on etiquette and they don't. The only plausible reason is that the system is conflicted about that issue. If reclining is an offence, why offer it? If the etiquette is straightforward, than explain it. But the fact is, nobody has decided these issues, even as available space seems to diminish year-by-year. Fact is: this is on the airlines. But also on us because we jump at the fares these tight spacings permit.
posted by sjswitzer at 4:05 PM on February 20, 2020 [11 favorites]
As for myself, reclining doesn't much decrease my discomfort, so I seldom bother with it. I do feel that it is a prerogative of a seat-holder to to avail themselves of the few comforts available to them, and this includes reclining. I am annoyed when the seat in front of me reclines at inopportune times (e.g., crunching my laptop that just barely fit already; when food is being served), but this is what booking steerage means. I accept it.
There seems to be a school of thought that you should ask the person behind you before reclining. That seems nice but impractical. I mean, I have never seen this done. It's a lovely thought, but it does not rise to the level of required etiquette.
But in this particular case, it seems clear that the guy behind was being antisocial. It also seems that the airline had no clear position on reclining policy. Maybe if a guy complains it's bad and a woman complains it's hysteria? I mean, either reclining is a thing or it isn't. Since it's an available service, a reasonable person would assume it's OK.
Airlines spend several minutes repeating rules and safety drills that rarely come up in practice. I support that because it probably increases survival in emergencies. But they could spend a few seconds on etiquette and they don't. The only plausible reason is that the system is conflicted about that issue. If reclining is an offence, why offer it? If the etiquette is straightforward, than explain it. But the fact is, nobody has decided these issues, even as available space seems to diminish year-by-year. Fact is: this is on the airlines. But also on us because we jump at the fares these tight spacings permit.
posted by sjswitzer at 4:05 PM on February 20, 2020 [11 favorites]
"I’d pay a premium to sit in a section where everyone agrees not to recline, manspread, kick/punch seats..."
I believe that's called "First Class"
posted by aleph at 4:05 PM on February 20, 2020 [17 favorites]
I believe that's called "First Class"
posted by aleph at 4:05 PM on February 20, 2020 [17 favorites]
"But I PAID for those 3.5 inches, YOU ASSHOLE! And I have seat pitch measurement statistics for several decades MEMORIZED to PROVE I AM IN THE RIGHT and that you are WRONG!!"
Pretzels or cookies?
posted by SoberHighland at 4:08 PM on February 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
Pretzels or cookies?
posted by SoberHighland at 4:08 PM on February 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
No popcorn?
posted by aleph at 4:09 PM on February 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by aleph at 4:09 PM on February 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
There's some etiquette that seems like it should be self-evident, but Americans seem to refuse to think about the tragedy of the commons ever, anymore.
Let people off elevators and trains before you board.
Don't stop at the top of an escalator.
Don't talk to strangers during the commute.
This isn't city folk being rude, it's a social contract because we need things to keep moving.
People who fly frequently understand this: you don't recline your seat into someone else's space without asking. That's it, that's the rule. If someone's not behind you? Go ahead and recline. But you're intruding, and you should never assume to intrude into someone's space without saying something.
The punching guy? Clearly worse. It's disproportionate just like punching a manspreading guy on the train would be. But that doesn't mean reclining was ok.
posted by explosion at 4:15 PM on February 20, 2020 [28 favorites]
Let people off elevators and trains before you board.
Don't stop at the top of an escalator.
Don't talk to strangers during the commute.
This isn't city folk being rude, it's a social contract because we need things to keep moving.
People who fly frequently understand this: you don't recline your seat into someone else's space without asking. That's it, that's the rule. If someone's not behind you? Go ahead and recline. But you're intruding, and you should never assume to intrude into someone's space without saying something.
The punching guy? Clearly worse. It's disproportionate just like punching a manspreading guy on the train would be. But that doesn't mean reclining was ok.
posted by explosion at 4:15 PM on February 20, 2020 [28 favorites]
People who fly frequently understand this: you don't recline your seat into someone else's space without asking.
I was a very frequent flyer up until 2005 or so. I still fly a few times a year. This was never the case. And to this day, I have never seen or heard anyone ask to recline a seat. It's a seat. It reclines. Recline it if you want. If someone has an issue, that person should speak up, and a compromise can be made.
FFS, we're turning into a nation of Jerry Seinfelds.
posted by SoberHighland at 4:20 PM on February 20, 2020 [61 favorites]
I was a very frequent flyer up until 2005 or so. I still fly a few times a year. This was never the case. And to this day, I have never seen or heard anyone ask to recline a seat. It's a seat. It reclines. Recline it if you want. If someone has an issue, that person should speak up, and a compromise can be made.
FFS, we're turning into a nation of Jerry Seinfelds.
posted by SoberHighland at 4:20 PM on February 20, 2020 [61 favorites]
https://gizmodo.com/a-gadget-that-stops-seats-from-reclining-caused-a-plane-1626696368
posted by Splunge at 4:22 PM on February 20, 2020
posted by Splunge at 4:22 PM on February 20, 2020
You know what you can do? You can ASK the person behind you if it's okay to recline.
OMG! Interact with live human! Yes. It's possible. And even crazier? 99% of the time they say "sure."
And if they say no? Well, you can try the next step I try if I'm in coach and desperate: Bribery. Say real politely "If you let me recline for two hours I will buy you a drink or snack." And about half the time that works. Compromise and communicate like adults.
Or. You know. Fly business class if all that seems impossible.
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 4:24 PM on February 20, 2020 [9 favorites]
OMG! Interact with live human! Yes. It's possible. And even crazier? 99% of the time they say "sure."
And if they say no? Well, you can try the next step I try if I'm in coach and desperate: Bribery. Say real politely "If you let me recline for two hours I will buy you a drink or snack." And about half the time that works. Compromise and communicate like adults.
Or. You know. Fly business class if all that seems impossible.
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 4:24 PM on February 20, 2020 [9 favorites]
I just find articles like this tiresome. Sure, it's fine to prefer the person in front of you doesn't recline, but the ridiculous insistence that your personal preference in the matter is some kind of moral code you can dictate to others is tedious.
(Did you read the article?)
posted by chappell, ambrose at 4:25 PM on February 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
(Did you read the article?)
posted by chappell, ambrose at 4:25 PM on February 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
Newer seats shift forward as they recline. This changes (almost) everything, although it is still just a tiny percent of seating currently available.
I've seen these seats. By shifting forward as they recline, in principle the net intrusion into the space of the person behind you does not change. In practice, though, they help pretty much not at all. If I'm the person behind you, suddenly my feet (not even my knees, just my shins and feet) have another couple of cubic feet of space, and suddenly my lap and chest and face (i.e. the space that actually matters in most cases) is full of your seat.
Don't kid yourself that seats shifting forward as you recline excuses you from being an asshole.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 4:27 PM on February 20, 2020 [9 favorites]
I've seen these seats. By shifting forward as they recline, in principle the net intrusion into the space of the person behind you does not change. In practice, though, they help pretty much not at all. If I'm the person behind you, suddenly my feet (not even my knees, just my shins and feet) have another couple of cubic feet of space, and suddenly my lap and chest and face (i.e. the space that actually matters in most cases) is full of your seat.
Don't kid yourself that seats shifting forward as you recline excuses you from being an asshole.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 4:27 PM on February 20, 2020 [9 favorites]
And I have seat pitch measurement statistics for several decades MEMORIZED
Or, I spent three minutes on Wikipedia. But yeah, keep punching that straw man, man.
posted by basalganglia at 4:28 PM on February 20, 2020 [7 favorites]
Or, I spent three minutes on Wikipedia. But yeah, keep punching that straw man, man.
posted by basalganglia at 4:28 PM on February 20, 2020 [7 favorites]
We've already had these arguments previously.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:30 PM on February 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:30 PM on February 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
OK, this thread has touched some NERVES. Air travel seems to foster this weird subset of Road Rage. Even normally mild-mannered MeFites are calling each other assholes here.
It's only a few hours in your lives, folks! Sometimes less! I'm just glad I don't get so worked up about it.
posted by SoberHighland at 4:33 PM on February 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
It's only a few hours in your lives, folks! Sometimes less! I'm just glad I don't get so worked up about it.
posted by SoberHighland at 4:33 PM on February 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
Look, airline travel is pretty terrible. It will be even worse in hypothetical hyperloops. That's all a given. But as long as airline offer seats that recline it will always be default-assumed that reclining is OK. That is on them, for offering a service that isn't really on offer. I don't avail myself of it much, but it has never occurred to me to ask if it was OK to do so, nor have I ever had anyone in front of me ask to do it. As of now, reclining is one of the few comforts allowed to steerage airline customers. It's a mess, but that what you sign up for in steerage.
posted by sjswitzer at 4:38 PM on February 20, 2020 [15 favorites]
posted by sjswitzer at 4:38 PM on February 20, 2020 [15 favorites]
The mere fact that first class air travel exists pisses me off, somehow people with money are better than the poors. Trains, people! Our environment can't continue to handle all this air travel.
posted by nofundy at 4:45 PM on February 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by nofundy at 4:45 PM on February 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
The guy behind might have been legitimately aggrieved, but he behaved as an asshole. The woman in front broached no red line in principles. Maybe the guy behind could have said something like "Sorry to bother you but I'm really cramped back here." That would have been nice but instead he just lashed out. Instead, he was skirting the borderlines of assault. That guy deserves no defense or sympathy. He is wrong each way from Sunday and I can't even believe there is a controversy about that.
posted by sjswitzer at 4:46 PM on February 20, 2020 [30 favorites]
posted by sjswitzer at 4:46 PM on February 20, 2020 [30 favorites]
I loved this article! And I love that its message - that there is no moral high ground in air travel - is flying right over the heads of most of us in this thread.
Pun intended.
posted by medusa at 4:48 PM on February 20, 2020 [10 favorites]
Pun intended.
posted by medusa at 4:48 PM on February 20, 2020 [10 favorites]
Different accommodation levels exist on trains, too. Pay more for a nicer experience. It's like a Kia versus a BMW. Both get you to to the in-laws' house on time. One's a bit nicer to spend time in.
posted by SoberHighland at 4:49 PM on February 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by SoberHighland at 4:49 PM on February 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
The insistence on reclining is basically pointing out that there's no law against being an asshole. And it's true! There's no rule preventing you from making other people's lives unpleasant.
Depending on the plane, someone reclining in front of me may make it very difficult for me to see the seatback monitor, it may make it impossible for me to open my laptop, in one case it came close to dislocating my kneecap. Am I going to die? No. Do you owe me anything? No. But understand that if you're reclining, you're the manspreader making your trip more comfortable at the expense of other people.
But yes, when I got on the plane I knew what I was signing up for.
posted by GuyZero at 4:49 PM on February 20, 2020 [26 favorites]
Depending on the plane, someone reclining in front of me may make it very difficult for me to see the seatback monitor, it may make it impossible for me to open my laptop, in one case it came close to dislocating my kneecap. Am I going to die? No. Do you owe me anything? No. But understand that if you're reclining, you're the manspreader making your trip more comfortable at the expense of other people.
But yes, when I got on the plane I knew what I was signing up for.
posted by GuyZero at 4:49 PM on February 20, 2020 [26 favorites]
The mere fact that first class air travel exists pisses me off, somehow people with money are better than the poors.
The people who pay cash money for business or first class travel (and aren't just frequent fliers getting it comped) are the ones paying for the flight. It's where all the profit is. Without them* there wouldn't be nearly the price competition in economy.
* discount airlines cut costs different ways and maybe that works for you but clearly every airline can't be a discount airline
posted by GuyZero at 4:52 PM on February 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
The people who pay cash money for business or first class travel (and aren't just frequent fliers getting it comped) are the ones paying for the flight. It's where all the profit is. Without them* there wouldn't be nearly the price competition in economy.
* discount airlines cut costs different ways and maybe that works for you but clearly every airline can't be a discount airline
posted by GuyZero at 4:52 PM on February 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
Dang, I'd mention a recent trip to China ;)
One of the last Harper’s newsletters included a list of all the people who got arrested in the US for falsely claiming one way or other to have recently made a trip to China.
posted by sideshow at 4:54 PM on February 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
One of the last Harper’s newsletters included a list of all the people who got arrested in the US for falsely claiming one way or other to have recently made a trip to China.
posted by sideshow at 4:54 PM on February 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
Reclining seats are probably a holdover from when seat spacing was more luxurious. It makes less sense now, and yeah, I get it. I've gotten cramps from leaning over to find my bags under my feet. I mean, it just doesn't work unless you've been practicing your yoga.
It's almost certainly true that we have different expectations for what a plane trip will be. Some expect a certain amount of comfort or, even, luxury. Some just expect to be able to endure it. But the fact is that there is no understood expectation about reclining. And if there were an expectation previously, when seat distances were further, those expectations confound things today.
posted by sjswitzer at 5:01 PM on February 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
It's almost certainly true that we have different expectations for what a plane trip will be. Some expect a certain amount of comfort or, even, luxury. Some just expect to be able to endure it. But the fact is that there is no understood expectation about reclining. And if there were an expectation previously, when seat distances were further, those expectations confound things today.
posted by sjswitzer at 5:01 PM on February 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
just so everyone knows, the seats on spirit airlines don't recline at all and yet everyone still finds a way to work my last fucking nerve you enervating sons-of-bitches flip that tiny seatback tray again and I will end you
posted by logicpunk at 5:03 PM on February 20, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by logicpunk at 5:03 PM on February 20, 2020 [9 favorites]
I’ve never reclined an economy seat and felt that it had any impact on my comfort. That 1 degree incline is not worth the inconvenience it causes the passenger behind you. But that’s beside the point. Fuck the airlines for continuing to squeeze seats so close together that this is even an issue.
posted by pleem at 5:04 PM on February 20, 2020 [17 favorites]
posted by pleem at 5:04 PM on February 20, 2020 [17 favorites]
“Hello passengers, this is your steward Static— as we level off at 35,000 feet we will be turning off the seat belt sign and request everyone recline their seats.
Snacks will be handed out in forty-five minutes and we will request everyone straighten up while we you enjoy your complimentary stale pretzel.”
As a six foot five lanky human being— go right ahead and recline in front of me, find comfort where you can. The shared commons is everyone should recline!
It kinda sucks that we lost the courtesy of “you’re big— do you want an exit row?” but after a long haul flight I always think “I shoulda bought the upgrade” but lo and behold— when I’m booking the flight the next time around, it’s hard to not think “$100 saved for a little discomfort— I could get a nice meal to reward myself for that!” and the cycle continues.
posted by Static Vagabond at 5:06 PM on February 20, 2020 [7 favorites]
Snacks will be handed out in forty-five minutes and we will request everyone straighten up while we you enjoy your complimentary stale pretzel.”
As a six foot five lanky human being— go right ahead and recline in front of me, find comfort where you can. The shared commons is everyone should recline!
It kinda sucks that we lost the courtesy of “you’re big— do you want an exit row?” but after a long haul flight I always think “I shoulda bought the upgrade” but lo and behold— when I’m booking the flight the next time around, it’s hard to not think “$100 saved for a little discomfort— I could get a nice meal to reward myself for that!” and the cycle continues.
posted by Static Vagabond at 5:06 PM on February 20, 2020 [7 favorites]
flying right over the heads of most of us in this thread.
Exactly this. Maybe 10% of commenters in this thread have RTFAed? Or at least read to the end, fully, and understood it. The pull quote is not the point of the article. Worse, they've proved the point.
posted by supercres at 5:08 PM on February 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
Exactly this. Maybe 10% of commenters in this thread have RTFAed? Or at least read to the end, fully, and understood it. The pull quote is not the point of the article. Worse, they've proved the point.
posted by supercres at 5:08 PM on February 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
Worse, they've proved the point.
Some people seem to think that because we lack dignity in air travel that they can do whatever they want. And they're right! There is no God who will judge you for being an asshole. Nothing you do will fundamentally make a plane trip an amazing experience.
It is up to you whether or not you do something to make it worse than it already is.
I mean, I get what the article is saying, but it's a little nihilistic to say "nothing matters, everything is terrible, the endless war of all against all is the natural order of humanity."
posted by GuyZero at 5:13 PM on February 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
Some people seem to think that because we lack dignity in air travel that they can do whatever they want. And they're right! There is no God who will judge you for being an asshole. Nothing you do will fundamentally make a plane trip an amazing experience.
It is up to you whether or not you do something to make it worse than it already is.
I mean, I get what the article is saying, but it's a little nihilistic to say "nothing matters, everything is terrible, the endless war of all against all is the natural order of humanity."
posted by GuyZero at 5:13 PM on February 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
"...the endless war of all against all is the natural order of humanity."
It's a *choice*. One of the many. And yes, it's a pattern we can "fall" into. Like racism and a lot of the other crap we have in the back of our heads. I'm interested in making better choices. (And the ways of figuring that out)
posted by aleph at 5:16 PM on February 20, 2020
It's a *choice*. One of the many. And yes, it's a pattern we can "fall" into. Like racism and a lot of the other crap we have in the back of our heads. I'm interested in making better choices. (And the ways of figuring that out)
posted by aleph at 5:16 PM on February 20, 2020
I did read the article, and it may have blathered on about no dignity and no complaining, but it was about a specific set of no complaining -- no complaining about not reclining, instead of no complaining about someone reclining. With a bunch of 'well, you are awful to be taking planes anyway' on top. But apparently when you take planes you should still follow my moral edicts, so again... tiresome.
posted by tavella at 5:21 PM on February 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by tavella at 5:21 PM on February 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
(There is a difference between reading the article and agreeing with it.)
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 5:23 PM on February 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 5:23 PM on February 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
Remember that life is long, and that you are going to feel like an idiot about this every time you remember doing it, which will be often.
Here is a list of the only things I feel like an idiot for doing on flights (and okay, one time it was a bus):
Folding myself up into more and more ridiculous contortions while the guy next to me manspread his legs, elbowed me in the ribs, and opened newspapers into my face.
Not escalating beyond a quiet "what the fuck, dude?" when the guy behind me kept leaning forward and stroking my neck while I slept.
Not telling the person who turned sideways and put their bare feet on the armrest we shared to cut it the fuck out.
In short, as a woman who was brought up to be polite and easygoing and not make a fuss, I need to learn to be more assertive about strangers taking advantage, not less.
posted by lollusc at 5:27 PM on February 20, 2020 [35 favorites]
Here is a list of the only things I feel like an idiot for doing on flights (and okay, one time it was a bus):
Folding myself up into more and more ridiculous contortions while the guy next to me manspread his legs, elbowed me in the ribs, and opened newspapers into my face.
Not escalating beyond a quiet "what the fuck, dude?" when the guy behind me kept leaning forward and stroking my neck while I slept.
Not telling the person who turned sideways and put their bare feet on the armrest we shared to cut it the fuck out.
In short, as a woman who was brought up to be polite and easygoing and not make a fuss, I need to learn to be more assertive about strangers taking advantage, not less.
posted by lollusc at 5:27 PM on February 20, 2020 [35 favorites]
Dude would not have been punching the seat if the person in front of him was a man. He saw someone smaller, older (I’m guessing), female, and thought he could get away with violent, aggressive behavior. And he was right!
I have taken many airline flights, I mean, many flights. Many just in the last two years. I have never been asked by the person in front of me if it was ok to recline their seat. I have never asked the person behind me before reclining my seat. I have never heard any person ask any other person before reclining their seat. It is just not a thing that happens on any routine basis.
I refuse to play along with so many commenters and retcon this guy’s behavior as somehow justified. Nope.
posted by webwench at 5:29 PM on February 20, 2020 [59 favorites]
I have taken many airline flights, I mean, many flights. Many just in the last two years. I have never been asked by the person in front of me if it was ok to recline their seat. I have never asked the person behind me before reclining my seat. I have never heard any person ask any other person before reclining their seat. It is just not a thing that happens on any routine basis.
I refuse to play along with so many commenters and retcon this guy’s behavior as somehow justified. Nope.
posted by webwench at 5:29 PM on February 20, 2020 [59 favorites]
just so everyone knows, the seats on spirit airlines don't recline at all and yet everyone still finds a way to work my last fucking nerve you enervating sons-of-bitches flip that tiny seatback tray again and I will end you
This is because Spirit Airlines is always teetering on the verge of charging you a $40 premium to not be asked to help the plane stay up by clutching the wing with your thighs and flapping your arms really fast. When someone is literally watching you to nickel-and-dime you for every tiny amenity, everyone riding Spirit is too fucking broke or cheap to afford any tiny comfort, you quickly learn to cherish grudges. Add that to the fact that the employees are burned out, overworked, understaffed, and have grown to hate every member of the general public, and you have a beautiful recipe for a fuck-awful experience.
I would quite seriously rather ride a Greyhound bus than ride Spirit Airlines. The Greyhound people have a way better comfort to irritation ratio, and what I lose in time I can make up in watching the scenery go by. If we had any sort of useful rail at all... oh, well, that's a pipe dream in the extreme.
posted by sciatrix at 5:44 PM on February 20, 2020 [8 favorites]
This is because Spirit Airlines is always teetering on the verge of charging you a $40 premium to not be asked to help the plane stay up by clutching the wing with your thighs and flapping your arms really fast. When someone is literally watching you to nickel-and-dime you for every tiny amenity, everyone riding Spirit is too fucking broke or cheap to afford any tiny comfort, you quickly learn to cherish grudges. Add that to the fact that the employees are burned out, overworked, understaffed, and have grown to hate every member of the general public, and you have a beautiful recipe for a fuck-awful experience.
I would quite seriously rather ride a Greyhound bus than ride Spirit Airlines. The Greyhound people have a way better comfort to irritation ratio, and what I lose in time I can make up in watching the scenery go by. If we had any sort of useful rail at all... oh, well, that's a pipe dream in the extreme.
posted by sciatrix at 5:44 PM on February 20, 2020 [8 favorites]
the seats recline. As far back as I can remember flying in the 1980s, the seats reclined. Only recently do I read people freak out about the horror of someone reclining a seat 3.5 inches.
There used to be articles that discussed how to survive a plane crash and the thing many survivors had in common was that they assumed the safety position: bending over and putting their heads down.
Try that someday when you are flying economy now. Even without someone putting their seat back it is impossible unless you are very small.
posted by srboisvert at 5:48 PM on February 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
There used to be articles that discussed how to survive a plane crash and the thing many survivors had in common was that they assumed the safety position: bending over and putting their heads down.
Try that someday when you are flying economy now. Even without someone putting their seat back it is impossible unless you are very small.
posted by srboisvert at 5:48 PM on February 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
no way am i asking if I can recline the seat. it's not their right to say no to me!! it's MY seat , similarly, no-one behind them has the right to say "you can't recline your seat". if they bought a "no recline seat", that's ON THEM. it's not public transport. it's a fucking seat and they paid for it and its characteristics. those characteristics are on display on the booking page!
to compare this to manspreading, where you take OTHER, FIXED seats up is ridiculous.
what I can do is say "I'll be reclining the seat in a minute, fyi" and not spill their drink, or give them time to adjust.
if a passenger behind me stops me from reclining the seat, you can bet the attendant is being called.
FFUYFFIUYUIYFYUIFFIUYFYIUFYIUFIYUFIYUFIUYFFFFFFFUUUUUUUU
posted by lalochezia at 6:09 PM on February 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
to compare this to manspreading, where you take OTHER, FIXED seats up is ridiculous.
what I can do is say "I'll be reclining the seat in a minute, fyi" and not spill their drink, or give them time to adjust.
if a passenger behind me stops me from reclining the seat, you can bet the attendant is being called.
FFUYFFIUYUIYFYUIFFIUYFYIUFYIUFIYUFIYUFIUYFFFFFFFUUUUUUUU
posted by lalochezia at 6:09 PM on February 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
Not directing this at anyone in particular but -- if, understanding that you are very likely inconveniencing or even causing physical pain to someone else, you insist on your absolute right to do a thing, well. Okay I guess? I'm not entirely sure what to say to you. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Are all of these flights going to Omelas maybe? Cause it seems like a lot of us live there perfectly comfortably.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 6:16 PM on February 20, 2020 [24 favorites]
Are all of these flights going to Omelas maybe? Cause it seems like a lot of us live there perfectly comfortably.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 6:16 PM on February 20, 2020 [24 favorites]
Jeez, save your yelling for—I guess—the airplane cabin.
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 6:16 PM on February 20, 2020
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 6:16 PM on February 20, 2020
Nothing about flying is as bad as people make it out to be.
For some people, maybe not. For me, I'm very claustrophobic. I specifically book myself an aisle seat whenever I have to fly so I don't have a panic attack, and I'm always worried that there will be some sort of mistake and I'll wind up having to sit in a middle or window which would make me panic. Recently I went to look for tickets for a flight I thought I'd have to make and was horrified to discover that a number of flights now don't let you select your own seat. I wound up not having to make the flight so I didn't get all the way through the booking process to see how it played out by the end, but now I'm even more worried about if that is going to be yet one more barrier to me not having weeks of anxiety and dread every time I need to fly.
Believe me, I understand that flying is not really for me and would gladly forego it, but unfortunately it is sometimes unavoidable. I occasionally have to fly for work, and my husband's family lives just far away enough that driving to visit is rarely practical; and while some of the family is sympathetic, others are not and all of them do expect me to "suck it up" and make the trip at least occasionally.
A friend of mine who does not typically suffer from claustrophobia booked himself a window seat on a recent flight as per usual. He's kind of a hefty guy, and as he sat there two very hefty guys sat down in the remaining seats in his row, kind of squishing him. Then the guy in front of him reclined. He said he was in a low-level panic state for the whole flight. He vowed never to book a window seat again.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 6:17 PM on February 20, 2020 [7 favorites]
For some people, maybe not. For me, I'm very claustrophobic. I specifically book myself an aisle seat whenever I have to fly so I don't have a panic attack, and I'm always worried that there will be some sort of mistake and I'll wind up having to sit in a middle or window which would make me panic. Recently I went to look for tickets for a flight I thought I'd have to make and was horrified to discover that a number of flights now don't let you select your own seat. I wound up not having to make the flight so I didn't get all the way through the booking process to see how it played out by the end, but now I'm even more worried about if that is going to be yet one more barrier to me not having weeks of anxiety and dread every time I need to fly.
Believe me, I understand that flying is not really for me and would gladly forego it, but unfortunately it is sometimes unavoidable. I occasionally have to fly for work, and my husband's family lives just far away enough that driving to visit is rarely practical; and while some of the family is sympathetic, others are not and all of them do expect me to "suck it up" and make the trip at least occasionally.
A friend of mine who does not typically suffer from claustrophobia booked himself a window seat on a recent flight as per usual. He's kind of a hefty guy, and as he sat there two very hefty guys sat down in the remaining seats in his row, kind of squishing him. Then the guy in front of him reclined. He said he was in a low-level panic state for the whole flight. He vowed never to book a window seat again.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 6:17 PM on February 20, 2020 [7 favorites]
I believe that’s called “First Class”
I believe you deliberately didn’t engage with my entire comment, because if you had, your punchline would make no sense.
posted by armeowda at 6:25 PM on February 20, 2020
I believe you deliberately didn’t engage with my entire comment, because if you had, your punchline would make no sense.
posted by armeowda at 6:25 PM on February 20, 2020
If you don't see how reclining into someone else's space is similar to manspreading into someone else's space I don't even know what to say.
Last week on a flight a man sat down and immediately reclined his bald spot into my eye line approximately 12 inches from my face for the entire duration of the flight.
posted by zymil at 6:42 PM on February 20, 2020 [6 favorites]
Last week on a flight a man sat down and immediately reclined his bald spot into my eye line approximately 12 inches from my face for the entire duration of the flight.
posted by zymil at 6:42 PM on February 20, 2020 [6 favorites]
One will never have dignity while flying because that aluminum tube you're strapped into is inflated like a tin balloon with the pressurized aggregate flatulence of dozens of strangers and airborne gallons of evaporated human moisture, trapped there thousands of feet up. That said, if I want the maximum chance of arriving alive at my destination, I fly. If I want the comfort of leg room and a view, I take the train. If I want my soul to sing, I'll ride a bicycle, a Vespa, a motorcycle, or a 1967 Citroën 2CV4. All involve tradeoffs and economies of time and privilege.
That said, the reclining of the seat in front of me always irked me fiercely when I was trying to either read or do something fiddly with a laptop on the tray table, but the advent of a boundless source of podcasts, all the vintage radio drama still surviving on some media somewhere, and audiobooks means I'm perfectly happy to sit back, put on a recording, and close my eyes until we clump down onto the destination runway. If I'm going to be strapped into an aluminum tube inflated like a tin balloon with the pressurized aggregate flatulence of dozens of strangers and airborne gallons of evaporated human moisture, it's best to be able to surrender to a little sonic trance and think about Jack Benny, George Orr, and how clams learn until it's all over, though your mileage may most definitely vary.
posted by sonascope at 6:50 PM on February 20, 2020 [7 favorites]
That said, the reclining of the seat in front of me always irked me fiercely when I was trying to either read or do something fiddly with a laptop on the tray table, but the advent of a boundless source of podcasts, all the vintage radio drama still surviving on some media somewhere, and audiobooks means I'm perfectly happy to sit back, put on a recording, and close my eyes until we clump down onto the destination runway. If I'm going to be strapped into an aluminum tube inflated like a tin balloon with the pressurized aggregate flatulence of dozens of strangers and airborne gallons of evaporated human moisture, it's best to be able to surrender to a little sonic trance and think about Jack Benny, George Orr, and how clams learn until it's all over, though your mileage may most definitely vary.
posted by sonascope at 6:50 PM on February 20, 2020 [7 favorites]
I consider air travel a good way to practice controlling my temper. There are always so many opportunities (the overhead bin games alone!). They are a nice distraction from the constant fear that a bump of turbulence means the plane is going down.
You really want a contrast, take Amtrak one way of a trip and a plane back. The looks on the passengers’ faces go from Christmas Morning to Rush Hour Traffic.
posted by sallybrown at 7:12 PM on February 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
You really want a contrast, take Amtrak one way of a trip and a plane back. The looks on the passengers’ faces go from Christmas Morning to Rush Hour Traffic.
posted by sallybrown at 7:12 PM on February 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
My previous comment the last time we had this discussion still stands.
posted by oneironaut at 7:46 PM on February 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by oneironaut at 7:46 PM on February 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
Recliners also fall under the rule where I’m not going to assume what someone does or doesn’t need based on how they look. Maybe the person has medical issues or a bad back (or even just a bad hangover). Tbh I have always found reclining to be MORE uncomfortable than not, so I don’t have anything invested in this debate.
posted by sallybrown at 7:53 PM on February 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by sallybrown at 7:53 PM on February 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
Maybe seats on the left should espect to *all* recline, and on the right, *not* recline. Or it could switch every hour.
Clean cups!
posted by clew at 8:08 PM on February 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
Clean cups!
posted by clew at 8:08 PM on February 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
it's a fucking seat and they paid for it and its characteristics
They did! But they also chose a seat with the characteristic of having a punchable back. If not having the back of your seat punched is so desirable, one can of course book the rearmost seat on the plane.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 8:10 PM on February 20, 2020 [10 favorites]
They did! But they also chose a seat with the characteristic of having a punchable back. If not having the back of your seat punched is so desirable, one can of course book the rearmost seat on the plane.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 8:10 PM on February 20, 2020 [10 favorites]
But as long as airline offer seats that recline it will always be default-assumed that reclining is OK. That is on them, for offering a service that isn't really on offer.
Yeah, the airline exec who suggested that this is all just an etiquette problem was infuriating to me. They know the seat recline thing is a problem, but they'd rather have passengers getting furious with each other than risk the ire of customers by disabling recline. FWIW: I never recline unless someone in front of me does it first, but no one in front of me has ever asked me if I'd mind them reclining. (Where do people do this?) I have had a couple of taller fellows ask if I could put my seat up to save their knees -- which I do, obviously. I've never had anyone over age 8 intentionally knock the back of my seat. Just appalling behavior.
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:33 PM on February 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
Yeah, the airline exec who suggested that this is all just an etiquette problem was infuriating to me. They know the seat recline thing is a problem, but they'd rather have passengers getting furious with each other than risk the ire of customers by disabling recline. FWIW: I never recline unless someone in front of me does it first, but no one in front of me has ever asked me if I'd mind them reclining. (Where do people do this?) I have had a couple of taller fellows ask if I could put my seat up to save their knees -- which I do, obviously. I've never had anyone over age 8 intentionally knock the back of my seat. Just appalling behavior.
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:33 PM on February 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
You know what you can do? You can ASK the person behind you if it's okay to recline.
Oh my god. Recline, don't recline, I will live but if you force me to interact with you that's when things get hairy.
posted by windykites at 8:37 PM on February 20, 2020 [15 favorites]
Oh my god. Recline, don't recline, I will live but if you force me to interact with you that's when things get hairy.
posted by windykites at 8:37 PM on February 20, 2020 [15 favorites]
It's strange to me that people say reclining is "causing physical pain" to another person but then are conveniently ignoring that the pitch of airline seats can aggravate back issues? I personally will lose some feeling in my feet if I am forced to sit completely upright. I recline my seat because I know otherwise I will be in pain, and it's a gamble if the person behind me would care.
> just sit up straight like your grandmother taught you.
How delightfully ableist of you.
posted by Behemoth, in no. 302-bis, with the Browning at 8:42 PM on February 20, 2020 [18 favorites]
> just sit up straight like your grandmother taught you.
How delightfully ableist of you.
posted by Behemoth, in no. 302-bis, with the Browning at 8:42 PM on February 20, 2020 [18 favorites]
I'm 6'5", most of it leg. If you recline your seat, my knees get crushed. First I will ask politely for you to refrain from reclining. If the answer is no (or, more likely, I am simply ignored) I then will sit in extreme discomfort until you return your seat to the upright position, at which point I raise my knees and place them just so against the back of your seat, braced in a manner which makes it impossible for you to recline your seat again. It's not a comfortable posture, but it's more comfortable than having my kneecaps smashed into gravel. I tend to get a lot of frustrated, dirty looks with this maneuver.
posted by dazed_one at 9:21 PM on February 20, 2020 [20 favorites]
posted by dazed_one at 9:21 PM on February 20, 2020 [20 favorites]
The people who pay cash money for business or first class travel (and aren't just frequent fliers getting it comped) are the ones paying for the flight. It's where all the profit is. Without them* there wouldn't be nearly the price competition in economy.
Flying economy is like taking a crowded bus across the country. It's a commodity service with no profit margins. The flight attendants are there primarily for safety, secondarily for order, third to pick up a few extra bucks selling stuff. Do not think or expect your ticket entitles you to anything more than this. T
It took me a long time to realize this but since then I've been much happier about flying because (1) I fly much less and (2) expect to be miserable the times I do fly. I only fly if I'm willing to accept the low grade torture because my destination is worth it. I still complain, obviously, so I disagree with this author. In fact I kind of interpreted the whole harangue about not complaining as their own way to do passive aggressive performative suffering, which is what airline travel brings out in most of us.
I mean, there is a list price to fly comfortably, it's just most people don't think it's worth paying.
posted by mark k at 9:45 PM on February 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
Flying economy is like taking a crowded bus across the country. It's a commodity service with no profit margins. The flight attendants are there primarily for safety, secondarily for order, third to pick up a few extra bucks selling stuff. Do not think or expect your ticket entitles you to anything more than this. T
It took me a long time to realize this but since then I've been much happier about flying because (1) I fly much less and (2) expect to be miserable the times I do fly. I only fly if I'm willing to accept the low grade torture because my destination is worth it. I still complain, obviously, so I disagree with this author. In fact I kind of interpreted the whole harangue about not complaining as their own way to do passive aggressive performative suffering, which is what airline travel brings out in most of us.
I mean, there is a list price to fly comfortably, it's just most people don't think it's worth paying.
posted by mark k at 9:45 PM on February 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
"Do not think or expect your ticket entitles you to anything more than this."
It's *not* this. It's what your ticket (legally) entitles you to do to the person behind you in this hell world we live in. *That* causes what other people cannot seem to understand to be very large rage in other people, whether it *should* or not.
And what other people also do not seem to understand is that part of this hell World is an *appreciable* fraction of its citizens *no longer believe in any kind of Social Contract*.
Given the combination... it's inevitable.
And no, also what other people do not seem to understand, there is nothing to *sympathize* or *excuse*. That's not how this works.
posted by aleph at 11:06 PM on February 20, 2020
It's *not* this. It's what your ticket (legally) entitles you to do to the person behind you in this hell world we live in. *That* causes what other people cannot seem to understand to be very large rage in other people, whether it *should* or not.
And what other people also do not seem to understand is that part of this hell World is an *appreciable* fraction of its citizens *no longer believe in any kind of Social Contract*.
Given the combination... it's inevitable.
And no, also what other people do not seem to understand, there is nothing to *sympathize* or *excuse*. That's not how this works.
posted by aleph at 11:06 PM on February 20, 2020
I find it astonishing that some people (not pointing to any mefite here) consider both parties to have transgressed on an equally asshole-ish level. Whatever you may think of reclining, to willfully keep jostling someone's seat seems unspeakably rude to me. I guess it also bugs me more because as someone said above, I doubt he would have done that to a man.
I have to say I've almost never seen someone ask if they can recline, and as such I just take it as the right that comes with their seat purchase. If someone were to ask me I'd probably be so taken aback and appreciative that I wouldn't think to deny them. I personally never recline but I do realize that I'm privileged in the sense that I'm fairly young and I don't have physical health issues that might lead others to need to do so. I don't begrudge others for it, maybe they have good reason for it. I'm more bothered when people prop their naked feet onto my armrest :( :( :( I do think it's rude when people do not sit back up straight when it comes to meal times, though.
I might be in the minority here, but I think I also don't mind people reclining that much because I rather like flying. If you're on a plane you clearly need to get somewhere, and is it really much worse than spending 5x that amount of time in a car? Or in a boat? I get that for a lot of folks hell is other people, but you're able to cross the globe in such a short amount of time! Being around others seems like a decent trade off. We're 30,000 feet in the air! We're floating through a magical cloud land that not even birds get to see. I feel like being able to fly is like experiencing a small miracle, so I guess I'll put up with a lot.
posted by sprezzy at 12:09 AM on February 21, 2020 [13 favorites]
I have to say I've almost never seen someone ask if they can recline, and as such I just take it as the right that comes with their seat purchase. If someone were to ask me I'd probably be so taken aback and appreciative that I wouldn't think to deny them. I personally never recline but I do realize that I'm privileged in the sense that I'm fairly young and I don't have physical health issues that might lead others to need to do so. I don't begrudge others for it, maybe they have good reason for it. I'm more bothered when people prop their naked feet onto my armrest :( :( :( I do think it's rude when people do not sit back up straight when it comes to meal times, though.
I might be in the minority here, but I think I also don't mind people reclining that much because I rather like flying. If you're on a plane you clearly need to get somewhere, and is it really much worse than spending 5x that amount of time in a car? Or in a boat? I get that for a lot of folks hell is other people, but you're able to cross the globe in such a short amount of time! Being around others seems like a decent trade off. We're 30,000 feet in the air! We're floating through a magical cloud land that not even birds get to see. I feel like being able to fly is like experiencing a small miracle, so I guess I'll put up with a lot.
posted by sprezzy at 12:09 AM on February 21, 2020 [13 favorites]
This seems like one of the "edge cases" with people. Seems like most of the time it's handled (with various degrees of resentment) in much calmer ways. Some very angry people out there. And some days are worse than others.
posted by aleph at 12:14 AM on February 21, 2020
posted by aleph at 12:14 AM on February 21, 2020
In 2000, I reached Peak Humiliation on a plane when I was shamed by a flight attendant who refused to lend me the seatbelt extender until she made a lengthy and loud observation about my weight. It was already bad enough since I was in the middle seat between two men who wouldn't share the armrests. Being fat seems to be just about as offensive as reclining. Never flew again.
posted by a humble nudibranch at 12:33 AM on February 21, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by a humble nudibranch at 12:33 AM on February 21, 2020 [6 favorites]
Metafilter: We've already had these arguments previously.
(For some of us that never gets old. A very small number of us. Well, me. Also: reading this argument again reminds me we'll never see capitalism clearly enough to do anything about it - the people who make things worse will always get away with it as long as they can get us to fight with each other. However, as someone who already this morning has had to unceremoniously dump one of those green hire bikes off the footpath where it was obstructing a lot of people including me, I suspect I'm one of life's seat-thumpers rather than one of life's recliners.)
posted by Grangousier at 1:14 AM on February 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
(For some of us that never gets old. A very small number of us. Well, me. Also: reading this argument again reminds me we'll never see capitalism clearly enough to do anything about it - the people who make things worse will always get away with it as long as they can get us to fight with each other. However, as someone who already this morning has had to unceremoniously dump one of those green hire bikes off the footpath where it was obstructing a lot of people including me, I suspect I'm one of life's seat-thumpers rather than one of life's recliners.)
posted by Grangousier at 1:14 AM on February 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
One pays for one's seat
One is entitled to all aspects of one's seat.
One aspect is the ability to recline.
I agree - - if the seat has a recliner function, one is entitled to use it.
However, with the ridiculously restricted seat pitch in Economy class on many airlines nowadays, I believe the recline function should be removed altogether.
As much as my back and I like to recline, I would still prefer the control of having a defined personal space that can't be randomly deformed by strangers.
It's that one last shred of dignity.
posted by fairmettle at 1:50 AM on February 21, 2020 [9 favorites]
One is entitled to all aspects of one's seat.
One aspect is the ability to recline.
I agree - - if the seat has a recliner function, one is entitled to use it.
However, with the ridiculously restricted seat pitch in Economy class on many airlines nowadays, I believe the recline function should be removed altogether.
As much as my back and I like to recline, I would still prefer the control of having a defined personal space that can't be randomly deformed by strangers.
It's that one last shred of dignity.
posted by fairmettle at 1:50 AM on February 21, 2020 [9 favorites]
Gods, that rambled on for a bit, didn't it? Writer person surely got paid by the word for that article.
posted by MartinWisse at 2:15 AM on February 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by MartinWisse at 2:15 AM on February 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
"Don't talk to strangers during the commute." I'm reminded of a past Mefi post: Want to feel happier? Talk to a stranger.
posted by gryftir at 2:36 AM on February 21, 2020
posted by gryftir at 2:36 AM on February 21, 2020
Thing I care about on planes: being able to breathe. Thing that makes that tough: planes with many dogs and cats.
It’s an impossible situation, because there exist people with genuine need to have an animal with them (yes, vet with PTSD who spent a chunk of the plane ride explaining how much your service dog had helped you, I get that you need the animal with you). I am sure there are even a pile of people with service animals who can’t afford the documentation but really need the animal.
But on the other side, I would really like to be able to make it through a plane flight taking only non-drowsy drugs. And above a certain number of animals, that’s just not possible, and it becomes Benadryl time. (I’ve actually started avoiding American flights because the sort of people who fly on them seem much more likely to be the sort of people who have gotten their pets documentation as support animals, as evidenced by the large numbers of animals on every plane of theirs I have been on in the last six months— hasn’t been a problem on Southwest at all).
Anyhow this isn’t an issue of airlines stuffing more seats in, it’s an issue of a conflict caused by stuffing a bunch of people with different needs in a tiny metal tube. The seat reclining issue is similar— the airlines have made it bad, but given the situation, who decides if a person should recline? Who has more right to the space, the guy who is 6’4” or the woman with a bad back in front of him?
I don’t know, but I do know that some of the issues are unresolvable, all of them are affected by if not a direct result of late stage capitalism, and in my discomfort I am most directly angry with the airline execs, who have added extra rows to the plane not to decrease my costs or help the environment, but to increase their own already obscene compensation. Dude repeatedly pushing on the seat oughtta be repeatedly pushing on those assholes instead.
posted by nat at 2:37 AM on February 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
It’s an impossible situation, because there exist people with genuine need to have an animal with them (yes, vet with PTSD who spent a chunk of the plane ride explaining how much your service dog had helped you, I get that you need the animal with you). I am sure there are even a pile of people with service animals who can’t afford the documentation but really need the animal.
But on the other side, I would really like to be able to make it through a plane flight taking only non-drowsy drugs. And above a certain number of animals, that’s just not possible, and it becomes Benadryl time. (I’ve actually started avoiding American flights because the sort of people who fly on them seem much more likely to be the sort of people who have gotten their pets documentation as support animals, as evidenced by the large numbers of animals on every plane of theirs I have been on in the last six months— hasn’t been a problem on Southwest at all).
Anyhow this isn’t an issue of airlines stuffing more seats in, it’s an issue of a conflict caused by stuffing a bunch of people with different needs in a tiny metal tube. The seat reclining issue is similar— the airlines have made it bad, but given the situation, who decides if a person should recline? Who has more right to the space, the guy who is 6’4” or the woman with a bad back in front of him?
I don’t know, but I do know that some of the issues are unresolvable, all of them are affected by if not a direct result of late stage capitalism, and in my discomfort I am most directly angry with the airline execs, who have added extra rows to the plane not to decrease my costs or help the environment, but to increase their own already obscene compensation. Dude repeatedly pushing on the seat oughtta be repeatedly pushing on those assholes instead.
posted by nat at 2:37 AM on February 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
My rule is very simple, don't recline until the person behind me does
posted by mbo at 2:59 AM on February 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by mbo at 2:59 AM on February 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
Short of frequently turning around to check, which sounds kind of creepy, how do you know when they've reclined?
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:58 AM on February 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:58 AM on February 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
Short of frequently turning around to check, which sounds kind of creepy, how do you know when they've reclined?
Just listen for the sounds of the thumping and banging from the person behind them.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:21 AM on February 21, 2020 [10 favorites]
Just listen for the sounds of the thumping and banging from the person behind them.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:21 AM on February 21, 2020 [10 favorites]
I find it somehow endearing that the easiest way to get a bunch of pacifist lefties riled up and ready to take up arms against their fellow man is to bring up this one, hyper-specific breach of etiquette. The world is burning and descending into fascism, but we'll stoically bear it unless someone has opposing views on airline seat reclining, at which point it's instantly PISTOLS AT DAWN
posted by Mayor West at 6:43 AM on February 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by Mayor West at 6:43 AM on February 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
Can we do overhead bin etiquette next? Because every flight has at least a few people who stand up and start trying to get to their luggage down the moment the plane stops taxiing. Even when they're in the last row, and it'll be ten minutes before the logjam of humanity in front of them clears. There they are, just throwing elbows to make sure they get their bag down before anyone else does, and then standing (standing!) over their seats, suitcase obnoxiously clutched in front of them. Can you imagine, like, dating someone for six months before you take your first flight together, and it's all starry-eyed gazes and comfortable contemplative silences and you're starting to think "maybe this person could be my life-partner" and then you fly to his parents' for Christmas and you realize you've chosen an early-overhead-bin-raider?
posted by Mayor West at 6:48 AM on February 21, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by Mayor West at 6:48 AM on February 21, 2020 [6 favorites]
Unpopular opinion: As a smallish person, I would rather have the uncomfortable seats and bottom-dollar ticket prices of today than have to pay more for more comfortable seats. Disagree with me? Economy plus exists specifically for you.
posted by mosst at 7:02 AM on February 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by mosst at 7:02 AM on February 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
You cannot escape suffering.
I have been the guy on the plane, who *needed* to work on the flight and the person in front of me reclined. I couldn't open my laptop. I chalked it up to "my company needs to spend more on better seats so I can work." Lesson learned.
I have been asked to not recline and complied. There is not enough comfort in the my-comfort vs your-pain equation on a 3 hour flight.
I really wish I had more context to understand his extremely inappropriate reaction. The airline should have banned him from their routes after learning of this.
posted by zerobyproxy at 7:02 AM on February 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
I have been the guy on the plane, who *needed* to work on the flight and the person in front of me reclined. I couldn't open my laptop. I chalked it up to "my company needs to spend more on better seats so I can work." Lesson learned.
I have been asked to not recline and complied. There is not enough comfort in the my-comfort vs your-pain equation on a 3 hour flight.
I really wish I had more context to understand his extremely inappropriate reaction. The airline should have banned him from their routes after learning of this.
posted by zerobyproxy at 7:02 AM on February 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
The world is burning and descending into fascism
Yes but it at least making sure that the world behind it can also burn and descend first
posted by cortex at 7:17 AM on February 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
Yes but it at least making sure that the world behind it can also burn and descend first
posted by cortex at 7:17 AM on February 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
"Unpopular opinion: As a smallish person, I would rather have the uncomfortable seats and bottom-dollar ticket prices of today than have to pay more for more comfortable seats. Disagree with me? Economy plus exists specifically for you."
As a large-ish person, I agree.
posted by kevinbelt at 7:18 AM on February 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
As a large-ish person, I agree.
posted by kevinbelt at 7:18 AM on February 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
“don’t force me to interact with you”
Describing the basic courtesy of interacting politely with the humans around you for a moment before taking an action which may cause suffering — which is inevitable on an aluminum tube at 30,000 ft — as being “forced” into anything pretty much says it all.
I understand that the internet has inculcated entire generations to resist fundamental human meat space social skills and made misanthropy hip and cute, but you can’t get around sharing this world. It’s just the way it is. Learning those skills will make your life easier.
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 7:21 AM on February 21, 2020 [8 favorites]
Describing the basic courtesy of interacting politely with the humans around you for a moment before taking an action which may cause suffering — which is inevitable on an aluminum tube at 30,000 ft — as being “forced” into anything pretty much says it all.
I understand that the internet has inculcated entire generations to resist fundamental human meat space social skills and made misanthropy hip and cute, but you can’t get around sharing this world. It’s just the way it is. Learning those skills will make your life easier.
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 7:21 AM on February 21, 2020 [8 favorites]
I would quite seriously rather ride a Greyhound bus than ride Spirit Airlines.
I love Spirit. In the past three years, I've been to Portland, Miami, NYC, Chicago, and back home again with my family for like $200 in total. And I fly American (usually) for work, the experience isn't any better. I've definitely never noticed any difference in airline staff disposition.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:37 AM on February 21, 2020
I love Spirit. In the past three years, I've been to Portland, Miami, NYC, Chicago, and back home again with my family for like $200 in total. And I fly American (usually) for work, the experience isn't any better. I've definitely never noticed any difference in airline staff disposition.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:37 AM on February 21, 2020
I'm sorry, but if you recline in economy, you are an asshole. Full stop.
Yes, you "can" do it. You paid for your seat. You however also know full well the airlines have squeezed shit so close that doing so seriously inconveniences another passenger for a tiny benefit to yourself.
If you want to be angry about not being able to recline, be angry at the shitty airlines for pretending like this is a real thing you can do without harming others, instead of taking the "the rulebook doesn't say I can't be an asshole so I'm totally justified in being an asshole" route and then acting like nobody should judge you for it.
posted by tocts at 8:19 AM on February 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
Yes, you "can" do it. You paid for your seat. You however also know full well the airlines have squeezed shit so close that doing so seriously inconveniences another passenger for a tiny benefit to yourself.
If you want to be angry about not being able to recline, be angry at the shitty airlines for pretending like this is a real thing you can do without harming others, instead of taking the "the rulebook doesn't say I can't be an asshole so I'm totally justified in being an asshole" route and then acting like nobody should judge you for it.
posted by tocts at 8:19 AM on February 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
I find it somehow endearing that the easiest way to get a bunch of pacifist lefties riled up and ready to take up arms against their fellow man is to bring up this one, hyper-specific breach of etiquette...."
"You are indeed correct, comrade. We have been wasting time on this petty nonsense while you have concentrated the whole of your effort for the revolution. We can only aspire--and fail!--to achieve your purity of resistance."
They have made the plan, and the plan is good. The rats will turn on each other long before it dawns on them to work together to get out of the cage.
I have it on good authority that the beatings will continue until moral improves.
posted by mule98J at 8:33 AM on February 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
"You are indeed correct, comrade. We have been wasting time on this petty nonsense while you have concentrated the whole of your effort for the revolution. We can only aspire--and fail!--to achieve your purity of resistance."
They have made the plan, and the plan is good. The rats will turn on each other long before it dawns on them to work together to get out of the cage.
I have it on good authority that the beatings will continue until moral improves.
posted by mule98J at 8:33 AM on February 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
All the folks in here calling people assholes sound unhinged. I guess we're done here. And I mean "done" in the aleph sense of "done".
posted by Wood at 8:36 AM on February 21, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by Wood at 8:36 AM on February 21, 2020 [6 favorites]
Damn, I have a "sense".
I should apologize for (I think) introducing the "asshole" term but I used it to try to explain why what is going on for people who don't seem to be able to understand it. Notice, I said *nothing* about agreeing or disagreeing with *any* of it but that doesn't stop some Olympic type jumpers-to-conclusions we have here.
*They* see you as an asshole when you do that. *They* decide to be an asshole back. Enough said. *You* say they shouldn't feel like that or shouldn't be allowed to act like that. Welcome to he hell World we live in.
posted by aleph at 8:43 AM on February 21, 2020
I should apologize for (I think) introducing the "asshole" term but I used it to try to explain why what is going on for people who don't seem to be able to understand it. Notice, I said *nothing* about agreeing or disagreeing with *any* of it but that doesn't stop some Olympic type jumpers-to-conclusions we have here.
*They* see you as an asshole when you do that. *They* decide to be an asshole back. Enough said. *You* say they shouldn't feel like that or shouldn't be allowed to act like that. Welcome to he hell World we live in.
posted by aleph at 8:43 AM on February 21, 2020
All the folks in here calling people assholes sound unhinged.
All the folks acting like it's totally fine to make things significantly worse for a stranger so they can be a tiny bit more comfortable sound selfish as fuck.
posted by tocts at 8:55 AM on February 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
All the folks acting like it's totally fine to make things significantly worse for a stranger so they can be a tiny bit more comfortable sound selfish as fuck.
posted by tocts at 8:55 AM on February 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
"All the folks acting like it's totally fine to make things significantly worse for a stranger..."
No. They just don't see it that way. :(
posted by aleph at 8:57 AM on February 21, 2020
No. They just don't see it that way. :(
posted by aleph at 8:57 AM on February 21, 2020
If you do a thing and people tell you, "hey, this is making me incredibly uncomfortable in a situation that's already often very uncomfortable" and your response is, "I don't see it that way", you're basically saying that your belief about how someone should feel about the situation overrides what they've told you.
If you recline in front of me, you are making my life worse, in an already pretty shitty situation. If you choose to "not see it that way", you are being an asshole.
posted by tocts at 8:58 AM on February 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
If you recline in front of me, you are making my life worse, in an already pretty shitty situation. If you choose to "not see it that way", you are being an asshole.
posted by tocts at 8:58 AM on February 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
If the person ahead of me reclines, I might recline. If not, I don't. That's my personal decision. It hasn't been forced on me and I don't force it on anyone else. If someone thinks I'm an asshole for that I don't care because they aren't recognizing that there's a gray area.
I would never repeatedly kick the seat ahead of me unless it was occupied by Devin Nunes.
posted by hypnogogue at 9:01 AM on February 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
I would never repeatedly kick the seat ahead of me unless it was occupied by Devin Nunes.
posted by hypnogogue at 9:01 AM on February 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
Mod note: Gonna go ahead and remind everybody that we are not in fact currently trapped on an airplane one behind the other and ask folks to take a couple steps back from the "no collective YOU are an asshole", "no, collective YOU are an asshole" stuff. It's okay to just not be crammed uncomfortably behind the previous comment in this thread.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:03 AM on February 21, 2020 [11 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:03 AM on February 21, 2020 [11 favorites]
"If you choose to "not see it that way", you are being an asshole."
No. Most of the time we don't "see it that way". We just see the World like a fish "sees" the water it swims in. We can "choose" not to but most of the time we don't. And even when we do we get it wrong a *lot* of the time.
posted by aleph at 9:15 AM on February 21, 2020
No. Most of the time we don't "see it that way". We just see the World like a fish "sees" the water it swims in. We can "choose" not to but most of the time we don't. And even when we do we get it wrong a *lot* of the time.
posted by aleph at 9:15 AM on February 21, 2020
Guess tocts thinks I’m an asshole. Good to know.
One might suggest that these sorts of blanket pronouncements tend to reveal more about the speaker than the targets.
posted by uberchet at 9:21 AM on February 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
One might suggest that these sorts of blanket pronouncements tend to reveal more about the speaker than the targets.
posted by uberchet at 9:21 AM on February 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
So here's the thing about the analogy of the fish and water: you're right, we don't see the water we swim in. However, when people have pointed it out to you, at that point your choice is to either acknowledge it, or not. You no longer don't know it's there, it's just a question of whether you care to change your actions based on that knowledge.
Fundamentally, flying is a bad experience for a lot of people. You can make it worse for others in a lot of ways, even in ways that wouldn't make it worse for you personally. When you have been told by a large chunk of people that doing a specific thing makes their experience really unpleasant, it's up to you what to now do with that knowledge. Nobody can stop you from deciding you'd rather just keeping doing what is best for you regardless of others. But, similarly, you have no right to ask that others not think you're being anti-social at best if you choose to do so, knowing full well what it means for others.
posted by tocts at 9:51 AM on February 21, 2020 [8 favorites]
Fundamentally, flying is a bad experience for a lot of people. You can make it worse for others in a lot of ways, even in ways that wouldn't make it worse for you personally. When you have been told by a large chunk of people that doing a specific thing makes their experience really unpleasant, it's up to you what to now do with that knowledge. Nobody can stop you from deciding you'd rather just keeping doing what is best for you regardless of others. But, similarly, you have no right to ask that others not think you're being anti-social at best if you choose to do so, knowing full well what it means for others.
posted by tocts at 9:51 AM on February 21, 2020 [8 favorites]
You sound like you communicate. A lot of people don't. Or communicate so weird that it doesn't come across like that. May you always run into your type of people. They are much easier to get along with.
posted by aleph at 10:02 AM on February 21, 2020
posted by aleph at 10:02 AM on February 21, 2020
I fly at least twice a month. I fly internationally four to five times per year. Here are my personal rules for flying:
I don’t recline on short daylight flights ever. EV-VAR.
I don’t recline on any flight less than four hours.
If I must recline, which happens every once in a while (because I have a chronic cervical spine injury that acts up), I ALWAYS ask. Always. Always. It’s not a hardship. Nobody acts shocked.
If the flight is over five ours I fly business class.
Them’s my rules. For myself.
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 10:29 AM on February 21, 2020 [9 favorites]
I don’t recline on short daylight flights ever. EV-VAR.
I don’t recline on any flight less than four hours.
If I must recline, which happens every once in a while (because I have a chronic cervical spine injury that acts up), I ALWAYS ask. Always. Always. It’s not a hardship. Nobody acts shocked.
If the flight is over five ours I fly business class.
Them’s my rules. For myself.
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 10:29 AM on February 21, 2020 [9 favorites]
You sound like a person trying to get along with the people around you. That's all it takes most of the time. Though those sound like an excellent set of rules to fly by, if you can.
posted by aleph at 10:35 AM on February 21, 2020
posted by aleph at 10:35 AM on February 21, 2020
A few times when the person in front of me reclined it was really inconvenient with my laptop, but it would never in a million years have occurred to me to request they not recline, and even less so to judge them.
posted by hypnogogue at 10:45 AM on February 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by hypnogogue at 10:45 AM on February 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
A few times when the person in front of me reclined it was really inconvenient with my laptop, but it would never in a million years have occurred to me to request they not recline, and even less so to judge them.
How fortunate for you. As a tall person, when the person in front of me reclines their seat it literally crushes my kneecaps. If I ask them not to do that and they don't listen/care, I absolutely judge them as assholes.
posted by dazed_one at 10:59 AM on February 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
How fortunate for you. As a tall person, when the person in front of me reclines their seat it literally crushes my kneecaps. If I ask them not to do that and they don't listen/care, I absolutely judge them as assholes.
posted by dazed_one at 10:59 AM on February 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
Seems like a rational judgement to me, even if the ticket (legally) entitled them to it.
Some people are like bombs waiting to go off. :(
And it could have *already* been a bad day.
Personally, I kind of admire the innocence of the people who do something like that to the people sitting behind them on those flights. Most of the time it works out... Social Contracts aren't dead (just wounded).
posted by aleph at 11:15 AM on February 21, 2020
Some people are like bombs waiting to go off. :(
And it could have *already* been a bad day.
Personally, I kind of admire the innocence of the people who do something like that to the people sitting behind them on those flights. Most of the time it works out... Social Contracts aren't dead (just wounded).
posted by aleph at 11:15 AM on February 21, 2020
“don’t force me to interact with you”
Describing the basic courtesy of interacting politely with the humans around you for a moment before taking an action which may cause suffering — which is inevitable on an aluminum tube at 30,000 ft — as being “forced” into anything pretty much says it all.
I understand that the internet has inculcated entire generations to resist fundamental human meat space social skills and made misanthropy hip and cute, but you can’t get around sharing this world. It’s just the way it is. Learning those skills will make your life easier.
Asking for permission to recline is not basic courtesy. It's not a polite interaction. It's not the act of someone who has learned social skills and how to share this world. What you're proposing to do is not share space, it's take space. "Is it okay if I put the top of my head in your face for the next three hours?"
Nobody's ever asked me "do you mind if I recline my seat," because of course I do. In the unlikely event that it becomes officially polite for everybody to start asking and I get asked, what, I'm going to say "no, it is not okay with me if you recline your seat"? "Oh, normally I would say no, but today I'm traveling without my corpus, so go for it, and thanks for asking!"
No, fuck you for asking. The thing is, I barely mind. I mind very mildly; it's so barely an imposition that I hardly notice it, but if you make me say it out loud, I'm going to have to lie to be polite and THEN deal with the top of your head for the rest of the flight. What are you ASKING for? Just to rub it in, huh? Just do the thing you want to do! Resist the urge to compound the injury with insult by making me lie in order not to tell you what you already know: that I would rather you not do the thing you want to do.
Have any of you askers ever heard "no?" I bet if you turn around to ask and you see that the person behind you is seven feet tall, you turn back around and face front without asking, and you don't recline your seat because of course, NO. REALLY NO. But for all the times you've turned around and found a smaller person sitting there and gone ahead with your supposedly polite question, the "sure!" you've heard in response has been a polite lie. It's a very slight imposition. People don't mind very much at all. But they do mind a little bit. That question is rude. Just recline.
posted by Don Pepino at 11:21 AM on February 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
Describing the basic courtesy of interacting politely with the humans around you for a moment before taking an action which may cause suffering — which is inevitable on an aluminum tube at 30,000 ft — as being “forced” into anything pretty much says it all.
I understand that the internet has inculcated entire generations to resist fundamental human meat space social skills and made misanthropy hip and cute, but you can’t get around sharing this world. It’s just the way it is. Learning those skills will make your life easier.
Asking for permission to recline is not basic courtesy. It's not a polite interaction. It's not the act of someone who has learned social skills and how to share this world. What you're proposing to do is not share space, it's take space. "Is it okay if I put the top of my head in your face for the next three hours?"
Nobody's ever asked me "do you mind if I recline my seat," because of course I do. In the unlikely event that it becomes officially polite for everybody to start asking and I get asked, what, I'm going to say "no, it is not okay with me if you recline your seat"? "Oh, normally I would say no, but today I'm traveling without my corpus, so go for it, and thanks for asking!"
No, fuck you for asking. The thing is, I barely mind. I mind very mildly; it's so barely an imposition that I hardly notice it, but if you make me say it out loud, I'm going to have to lie to be polite and THEN deal with the top of your head for the rest of the flight. What are you ASKING for? Just to rub it in, huh? Just do the thing you want to do! Resist the urge to compound the injury with insult by making me lie in order not to tell you what you already know: that I would rather you not do the thing you want to do.
Have any of you askers ever heard "no?" I bet if you turn around to ask and you see that the person behind you is seven feet tall, you turn back around and face front without asking, and you don't recline your seat because of course, NO. REALLY NO. But for all the times you've turned around and found a smaller person sitting there and gone ahead with your supposedly polite question, the "sure!" you've heard in response has been a polite lie. It's a very slight imposition. People don't mind very much at all. But they do mind a little bit. That question is rude. Just recline.
posted by Don Pepino at 11:21 AM on February 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
I see the question as checking (politely) for something other than they "mind". That's the chance to bring up "uh, no. you'll hit my knees here" or something else to give them a chance.
Of course, I try to be an optimist. (cue hilarious laughter)
posted by aleph at 11:24 AM on February 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
Of course, I try to be an optimist. (cue hilarious laughter)
posted by aleph at 11:24 AM on February 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
A better way would be they could pop up and say, "Oh, god, I hate to do this to you, but my sciatica makes it feel like fireants are chewing my hip bones, I'm so sorry, I'm so, so sorry," and I would be like, "Oh, no no no, no worries, please be my guest, you poor thing, here, have a Werther's" and we would be friends forevermore even if I knew the sciatica was invented. Apology, yes, sure. Question, hell no.
posted by Don Pepino at 11:28 AM on February 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Don Pepino at 11:28 AM on February 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
The question was a minimum. That was a *performance*. (One I'm sure I wouldn't be capable of)
posted by aleph at 11:30 AM on February 21, 2020
posted by aleph at 11:30 AM on February 21, 2020
ExAAACTly. The question puts the responsibility on the asked person. The statement makes the reclining person take the responsibility.
posted by Don Pepino at 11:31 AM on February 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Don Pepino at 11:31 AM on February 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
As one of the asshole-calling firebrands, I should clarify that in my rhetorical universe 'asshole' is a pretty tame epithet, and when I use it here I intend no aggression. Please consider it more of a rolling-ones-eyes-asshole than a pistols-at-dawn-asshole.
I have been the guy on the plane, who *needed* to work on the flight and the person in front of me reclined. I couldn't open my laptop. I chalked it up to "my company needs to spend more on better seats so I can work." Lesson learned.
Yeah, I think that's entirely fair. I've used exactly that argument more than once to request better seats for work trips, and it did work at least once. Unless you are a tiny person with a tiny laptop there's just no way (from my perspective) to use a laptop in the cheap seats when the person in front of you has reclined into your lap. I refuse to even try these days after I had the hinge on a laptop screen literally broken by the person in front of me abruptly dropping the seat back.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 11:47 AM on February 21, 2020
I have been the guy on the plane, who *needed* to work on the flight and the person in front of me reclined. I couldn't open my laptop. I chalked it up to "my company needs to spend more on better seats so I can work." Lesson learned.
Yeah, I think that's entirely fair. I've used exactly that argument more than once to request better seats for work trips, and it did work at least once. Unless you are a tiny person with a tiny laptop there's just no way (from my perspective) to use a laptop in the cheap seats when the person in front of you has reclined into your lap. I refuse to even try these days after I had the hinge on a laptop screen literally broken by the person in front of me abruptly dropping the seat back.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 11:47 AM on February 21, 2020
"...used exactly that argument more than once"
If you can you should. Seems part of the necessary push-back. A lot of that stuff stays invisible in some places, until it (suddenly) doesn't. Other places...
posted by aleph at 11:56 AM on February 21, 2020
If you can you should. Seems part of the necessary push-back. A lot of that stuff stays invisible in some places, until it (suddenly) doesn't. Other places...
posted by aleph at 11:56 AM on February 21, 2020
Oh my god... Some of the comments here are not only over the top but utterly socially incompetent and virtually unhinged. Hahahaha. Just picturing you sitting there just seething with rage because sone asked you a question or you can’t say no to someone? Good Christ. How do exist in this world?
You know If you have shitty interactions with people that leave you feeling such rage all the time, guess what? The common denominator is you.
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 12:00 PM on February 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
You know If you have shitty interactions with people that leave you feeling such rage all the time, guess what? The common denominator is you.
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 12:00 PM on February 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
People are weird. Understanding someone makes you that someone. People are weird.
I think there are *much* better ways to do things. But I can understand (some) other people's ways. Others... I have more difficulty with.
posted by aleph at 12:04 PM on February 21, 2020
I think there are *much* better ways to do things. But I can understand (some) other people's ways. Others... I have more difficulty with.
posted by aleph at 12:04 PM on February 21, 2020
“Pardon me sir, but do you mind if I get by you?”
“AAAAARGH! HOW DARE YOU PUT THE RESPONSIBILITY ON ME TO STEP SLIGHTLY TO THE LEFT, YOU ASSHOLE!”
Hahaha. Good god.
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 12:07 PM on February 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
“AAAAARGH! HOW DARE YOU PUT THE RESPONSIBILITY ON ME TO STEP SLIGHTLY TO THE LEFT, YOU ASSHOLE!”
Hahaha. Good god.
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 12:07 PM on February 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
You know what I have had enough of? I will tell you! Once I was on a flight from CA to the East Coast. A passenger nearby had an infant, who slept for about the first half of the flight and then woke up and started crying, The passenger next to me then started a passive-agressive display of unhappiness at this development, ostentatiously sighing, rolling her eyes, that kind of thing. This was about twice as annoying as the baby crying; and, furthermore the infant did not choose to disturb anyone or be a jackass, it just started crying, as they do, and that after sleeping for like half the flight, which we should all have been grateful for.
In general, people do not fly with their very young offspring just because it is so much fun, too: they typically have some very compelling reason why they have to do so. They usually are doing the best they can to minimize the problems this causes for the people around them, but sometimes the goddamn bear eats you and there is nothing that works to soothe a shrieking child. It won't kill people to be a little understanding and to appreciate that the parents in question are probably having a much worse day than you.
posted by thelonius at 12:17 PM on February 21, 2020 [13 favorites]
In general, people do not fly with their very young offspring just because it is so much fun, too: they typically have some very compelling reason why they have to do so. They usually are doing the best they can to minimize the problems this causes for the people around them, but sometimes the goddamn bear eats you and there is nothing that works to soothe a shrieking child. It won't kill people to be a little understanding and to appreciate that the parents in question are probably having a much worse day than you.
posted by thelonius at 12:17 PM on February 21, 2020 [13 favorites]
I’m waiting for the inevitable:
“THAT BABY WAS AN ASSHOLE!”
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 12:19 PM on February 21, 2020
“THAT BABY WAS AN ASSHOLE!”
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 12:19 PM on February 21, 2020
It's no longer possible to work in coach. Such is life. You might be able to get a little done with an iPad and a keyboard, but no full-size laptop can fit anymore, with or without recline.
This is a feature.
Crying babies, Jehovah's Witnesses, amped-up Christians, and Amway salemen are why I have always carried very nice, very isolating headphones with me on planes. Modern ANC models will keep that baby away well enough to sleep. Any model is sufficient to tell chatty McDumbass that no, you're really not going to talk about time-shares in Florida for 4 hours.
posted by uberchet at 12:43 PM on February 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
This is a feature.
Crying babies, Jehovah's Witnesses, amped-up Christians, and Amway salemen are why I have always carried very nice, very isolating headphones with me on planes. Modern ANC models will keep that baby away well enough to sleep. Any model is sufficient to tell chatty McDumbass that no, you're really not going to talk about time-shares in Florida for 4 hours.
posted by uberchet at 12:43 PM on February 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
maybe that baby was a bit of a jerk, but babies get an automatic pass on assholery because they are babies
the bar for assholery is knowing better and babies don't know any better so they highest they can aspire to is jerkdom
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 12:59 PM on February 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
the bar for assholery is knowing better and babies don't know any better so they highest they can aspire to is jerkdom
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 12:59 PM on February 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
It's no longer possible to work in coach. Such is life.
Yeah, back in like 2000 I could take my encyclopedia-sized Thinkpad and chew through a lot of email in Outlook (offline) and planes were a good place to work. Planes somehow got smaller, now I use gmail and plane wifi is terrible and I've given up and just catch up on watching movies on domestic work flights. And I have to use my own device for that since there aren't even seatback screens on most domestic flights.
And now that I have noise-cancelling headphones there is no going back. It's just me and Bojack all the way to [DEN|ORD|EWR].
posted by GuyZero at 1:14 PM on February 21, 2020
Yeah, back in like 2000 I could take my encyclopedia-sized Thinkpad and chew through a lot of email in Outlook (offline) and planes were a good place to work. Planes somehow got smaller, now I use gmail and plane wifi is terrible and I've given up and just catch up on watching movies on domestic work flights. And I have to use my own device for that since there aren't even seatback screens on most domestic flights.
And now that I have noise-cancelling headphones there is no going back. It's just me and Bojack all the way to [DEN|ORD|EWR].
posted by GuyZero at 1:14 PM on February 21, 2020
Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza, your rules for plane seat position policy calibrated by flight time are nifty. It's just that pesky ol' social competence that needs a bit of a tweak. Pretty minor: you just need to take into account that it is impolite to assume your fellows on the plane are ask culture in all cases when in fact a lot of them are going to be guess culture, particularly when you're flying to places outside the big brash ask-ey West. You don't have to assume they're all rage-seething, unhinged social incompetents if they get pouty on you just because it's a four-hour flight and you are thus permitted by your rules to recline. The good news is that even in the tight confines of an aeroplane, you can stretch your brain and empathize with them! That's right, you can be a guesser, too! You can, for instance, guess that, whatever they may say when you pop up over the seat back and confront them unexpectedly with your bizarre question, the people seated behind you do not want you to recline on top of them. Now that you know that, you can instead of asking for permission to commit an imposition just 'cause you wanna, do them the simple courtesy of pretending to be in agony from a recent spinal tap. Or, hell, why not fork over your bribe from the git? "Here you go! $20 and an unopened bag of pop rocks." >plop!<
posted by Don Pepino at 1:47 PM on February 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 1:47 PM on February 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
Larry David is that you?
Nah. I’m going to keep asking people politely rather than assuming things about them. The only thing I’m going to assume is best intentions and that they have the fundamental maturity to answer back politely and honestly. With out hitting the back of my chair.
And I’m gonna use my human body language reading skills to fill in the blanks.
Look, you’re going to have to interact with people. It’s just the way it is. So you better lean how.
But you be you, seething rage dude.
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 3:27 PM on February 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
Nah. I’m going to keep asking people politely rather than assuming things about them. The only thing I’m going to assume is best intentions and that they have the fundamental maturity to answer back politely and honestly. With out hitting the back of my chair.
And I’m gonna use my human body language reading skills to fill in the blanks.
Look, you’re going to have to interact with people. It’s just the way it is. So you better lean how.
But you be you, seething rage dude.
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 3:27 PM on February 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
>But you be you, seething rage dude.
Your contribution to this thread is a series of angry comments that devolved into capslock-laden rants...
But yeah, you be you, seething rage dude!
posted by Behemoth, in no. 302-bis, with the Browning at 3:39 PM on February 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
Your contribution to this thread is a series of angry comments that devolved into capslock-laden rants...
But yeah, you be you, seething rage dude!
posted by Behemoth, in no. 302-bis, with the Browning at 3:39 PM on February 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
I’m going to keep asking people politely rather than assuming things about them.
So, you don't actually understand the difference between ask culture and guess culture. In guess culture, if you've gotten to the point of verbalizing a request, you've convinced yourself the answer is mostly likely going to be 'yes'. When you, an ask culture person, put a guess culture person on the spot by asking them for permission, their reaction is going to be informed by their own expectations and they will have difficulty saying "no" to you.
But, you be you.
posted by hanov3r at 3:41 PM on February 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
So, you don't actually understand the difference between ask culture and guess culture. In guess culture, if you've gotten to the point of verbalizing a request, you've convinced yourself the answer is mostly likely going to be 'yes'. When you, an ask culture person, put a guess culture person on the spot by asking them for permission, their reaction is going to be informed by their own expectations and they will have difficulty saying "no" to you.
But, you be you.
posted by hanov3r at 3:41 PM on February 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
Funny how we've gotten from "at least it would be nice to ask" to "asking is in itself an aggression." I mean, I get the ask/guess culture thing, but come on.
posted by sjswitzer at 3:44 PM on February 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by sjswitzer at 3:44 PM on February 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
(I just realized that I channeled my inner Joe Biden there.)
posted by sjswitzer at 3:46 PM on February 21, 2020
posted by sjswitzer at 3:46 PM on February 21, 2020
I ranted? What?
That dude just said “fuck you” and what an asshole... etc... In an unhinged over the top rail because all I suggested was to ask before doing something that annoys someone.
Like a normal human being.
(And I made satire in all caps. Omg! Because. C’mon. He’s ridiculous.)
You can’t hide behind “ask culture, guess culture” for every human interaction. It’s not some get out of jail free card. That’s... that’s just a bit much. Seriously.
Anyway. I think we found our seat pounders, fellas.
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 3:57 PM on February 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
That dude just said “fuck you” and what an asshole... etc... In an unhinged over the top rail because all I suggested was to ask before doing something that annoys someone.
Like a normal human being.
(And I made satire in all caps. Omg! Because. C’mon. He’s ridiculous.)
You can’t hide behind “ask culture, guess culture” for every human interaction. It’s not some get out of jail free card. That’s... that’s just a bit much. Seriously.
Anyway. I think we found our seat pounders, fellas.
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 3:57 PM on February 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
asking is in itself an aggression
Yeah. What ever you do don’t ask him to pass the salt. You just take that shit!
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 3:59 PM on February 21, 2020
Yeah. What ever you do don’t ask him to pass the salt. You just take that shit!
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 3:59 PM on February 21, 2020
you're the manspreader making your trip more comfortable
The thing that kills me is that reclining on the plane is, for me, not more comfortable in any respect! Now my back is at a weird angle, I have to hold my book up in front of my face, the head cushion is still pushing my face forward so it's not aligned with my back. There's no additional comfort! Just the illusion of comfort! It's MADNESS
posted by zeusianfog at 4:16 PM on February 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
The thing that kills me is that reclining on the plane is, for me, not more comfortable in any respect! Now my back is at a weird angle, I have to hold my book up in front of my face, the head cushion is still pushing my face forward so it's not aligned with my back. There's no additional comfort! Just the illusion of comfort! It's MADNESS
posted by zeusianfog at 4:16 PM on February 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
snurk! Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza, I am not even a tiny bit lying, you are the best thing in this thread. I find you hilarious, and I appreciate the forewarning that this weird thing could one day happen on a plane. Thanks to you, now I won't be startled. And I see where up there you actually mention you've got a spine agony thing going on: you probably don't mention it to people when asking planemates' permission to recline on the askculture premise that it would seem passive aggressive or something? Idk, no idea how you people function in the world. Anyway, if anybody ever startles me by suddenly popping up and asking about reclining their seat, I'm going to assume it's you and say yes with a heart full of gratitude. I promise not to say no just to try to get a free drink out of you.
OTOH, just so you know,
One of these things is not like the others!
“Pardon me sir, but do you mind if I get by you?”
"Could you please pass the salt?"
"Would you mind cradling my head in your lap for the next three hours?"
One of these things doesn't belong!
posted by Don Pepino at 4:34 PM on February 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
OTOH, just so you know,
One of these things is not like the others!
“Pardon me sir, but do you mind if I get by you?”
"Could you please pass the salt?"
"Would you mind cradling my head in your lap for the next three hours?"
One of these things doesn't belong!
posted by Don Pepino at 4:34 PM on February 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. No punching ("jostling") right?
posted by Wood at 5:24 PM on February 21, 2020
posted by Wood at 5:24 PM on February 21, 2020
I wish we could agree on no punching or jostling, but the sentiment here is that the greater monster is the one who would recline a seat or (gasp!) ask if doing so is ok. That makes no sense to me either but it is what it is.
posted by sjswitzer at 8:20 PM on February 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by sjswitzer at 8:20 PM on February 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
For those engaged in the asshole siderail of this thread, I recommend the recent documentary Assholes: A Theory.
Also, after receiving some modest support for my earlier comment recommending the removal of the recline function in tight pitch seats, I was reminded of the desk scene (~1:00) from the classic movie Brazil.
posted by fairmettle at 2:29 AM on February 22, 2020 [2 favorites]
Also, after receiving some modest support for my earlier comment recommending the removal of the recline function in tight pitch seats, I was reminded of the desk scene (~1:00) from the classic movie Brazil.
posted by fairmettle at 2:29 AM on February 22, 2020 [2 favorites]
I'm on a bus so scrolling up and down gives me motion sickness, so I don't want go back and see whether the follow up to this story has been shared.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/18/us/plane-passenger-reclined-seat-cnn/index.html
"But Williams said she was stunned by what happened when she tried to get a flight attendant to help.
She said she tried to alert a flight attendant as soon as the punching started. But the employee "rolled her eyes" at Williams and offered the man she accused of hitting her seat some complimentary rum, Williams tweeted.
After that, the flight attendant handed her a stern form letter, titled "Passenger Disturbance Notice."
"Notice: YOUR BEHAVIOR MAY BE IN VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW," the letter reads.
"You should immediately cease if you wish to avoid prosecution and your removal from this aircraft at the next point of arrival."
"It was shocking," Williams told CNN.
"I think the more calm I remained, (the flight attendant) got angrier and more aggravated. So she said, 'I'm not talking to you anymore. I'm done with you,' or 'I'm done with this,' something to that effect, and then handed me this passenger disturbance notice."
After that, the flight attendant told her, "'I will have you escorted off the plane if you say anything else. Delete the video,'" Williams said. "And I was scared to death.""
_____________
I'll never see my brother again. I'm on the east coast and flying causes me profound anxiety.
He is in Alaska and has excruciating sciatica as well as a bad shoulder replacement. He can't sit in an upright position for any length of time. The distance feels insurmountable.
posted by ezust at 6:58 AM on February 22, 2020 [3 favorites]
https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/18/us/plane-passenger-reclined-seat-cnn/index.html
"But Williams said she was stunned by what happened when she tried to get a flight attendant to help.
She said she tried to alert a flight attendant as soon as the punching started. But the employee "rolled her eyes" at Williams and offered the man she accused of hitting her seat some complimentary rum, Williams tweeted.
After that, the flight attendant handed her a stern form letter, titled "Passenger Disturbance Notice."
"Notice: YOUR BEHAVIOR MAY BE IN VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW," the letter reads.
"You should immediately cease if you wish to avoid prosecution and your removal from this aircraft at the next point of arrival."
"It was shocking," Williams told CNN.
"I think the more calm I remained, (the flight attendant) got angrier and more aggravated. So she said, 'I'm not talking to you anymore. I'm done with you,' or 'I'm done with this,' something to that effect, and then handed me this passenger disturbance notice."
After that, the flight attendant told her, "'I will have you escorted off the plane if you say anything else. Delete the video,'" Williams said. "And I was scared to death.""
_____________
I'll never see my brother again. I'm on the east coast and flying causes me profound anxiety.
He is in Alaska and has excruciating sciatica as well as a bad shoulder replacement. He can't sit in an upright position for any length of time. The distance feels insurmountable.
posted by ezust at 6:58 AM on February 22, 2020 [3 favorites]
Let me just clarify something because people appear to be misunderstanding somehow. Obviously the seat puncher should go directly to jail. If you've purchased a seat on a plane, you have the right to access and use the sitting parts of that seat, including at least one arm-rest and the recline function, if the seat has that. You have the right to access and use the seat pocket, tray table, and space beneath the seat in front of you, and the overhead light, air nozzle thing, and call button. That is all of the stuff you bought. You thus do not have the right to physically impede the full function of the seat in front of you. That is the right of the person who bought that seat. I'd say that jamming your knees against the seat in front of you is also out of line because you're thus taking from someone something that they purchased.
The seatpuncher is not in ask culture. He's not in guess culture. He's not in any culture because with his criminal assault he has renounced culture and consigned himself for all time to the dickhead realm. I did not find the seatpuncher particularly interesting because he is a known quantity: the barely human dickhead brute. What was interesting and what I felt I needed to explore was a new and at first profoundly unnerving etiquette practice, the recline ask. I needed to work that out ASAP in case I encounter it. Thanks to the fine folks of MetaFilter Air, it's now in my repertoire. MetaFilter has once again improved my life, this time by doing the seemingly impossible: helping me to behave with grace in steerage.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:20 AM on February 22, 2020 [4 favorites]
The seatpuncher is not in ask culture. He's not in guess culture. He's not in any culture because with his criminal assault he has renounced culture and consigned himself for all time to the dickhead realm. I did not find the seatpuncher particularly interesting because he is a known quantity: the barely human dickhead brute. What was interesting and what I felt I needed to explore was a new and at first profoundly unnerving etiquette practice, the recline ask. I needed to work that out ASAP in case I encounter it. Thanks to the fine folks of MetaFilter Air, it's now in my repertoire. MetaFilter has once again improved my life, this time by doing the seemingly impossible: helping me to behave with grace in steerage.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:20 AM on February 22, 2020 [4 favorites]
And you have improved my life by that impromptu performance/reply which I shall always aspire to (but fall short of). :)
posted by aleph at 10:13 AM on February 22, 2020
posted by aleph at 10:13 AM on February 22, 2020
im reclining right now
posted by poffin boffin at 11:58 AM on February 22, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 11:58 AM on February 22, 2020 [2 favorites]
(puzzled)
If you would msg me in advance I could see what I could do about having some rage filled asshole sit behind you (as opposed to standard rage-y people who will contain themselves; or the others who don't care; and...).
Otherwise I'm afraid you'll have to take the luck of the draw
posted by aleph at 12:10 PM on February 22, 2020
If you would msg me in advance I could see what I could do about having some rage filled asshole sit behind you (as opposed to standard rage-y people who will contain themselves; or the others who don't care; and...).
Otherwise I'm afraid you'll have to take the luck of the draw
posted by aleph at 12:10 PM on February 22, 2020
no
posted by poffin boffin at 4:16 PM on February 22, 2020
posted by poffin boffin at 4:16 PM on February 22, 2020
On Wednesday I took three flights home to Sweden from Colorado. The one between Denver and Frankfurt was 10 hours or so. Early on the person in front of me abruptly reclined because of course that’s how you recline but I wasn’t expecting it and it felt dangerous, although it wasn’t. Anyway, I was super lucky because I scored a row of four seats all to myself and could lie down and fall asleep thanks to drugs and horizontal space.
Before that I watched a movie and I checked to see if anyone was behind me (nope) before I reclined my seat. I don’t always remember to do that but I did once ask a person behind me if it would be a problem if I reclined my seat. I can’t remember if it was an especially packed, uncomfortable plane or if I noticed the person was tall or what the story was or the person‘s response. I just remember, as an old person, a time when having the person in front of you recline their seat did not necessarily feel like an assault.
Speaking of assaults, I am so sorry you were shamed by a flight attendant about your weight, a humble nudibranch. I would hope that everyone in this contentious thread could come together in agreement that when it comes to assholes, that flight attendant was a fucking asshole who should have been fired. I am sorry that you have never flown since. It’s fine not to fly if you hate it but it sucks not to fly because you’ve been shamed. You did not deserve that treatment.
posted by Bella Donna at 10:08 PM on February 22, 2020 [3 favorites]
Before that I watched a movie and I checked to see if anyone was behind me (nope) before I reclined my seat. I don’t always remember to do that but I did once ask a person behind me if it would be a problem if I reclined my seat. I can’t remember if it was an especially packed, uncomfortable plane or if I noticed the person was tall or what the story was or the person‘s response. I just remember, as an old person, a time when having the person in front of you recline their seat did not necessarily feel like an assault.
Speaking of assaults, I am so sorry you were shamed by a flight attendant about your weight, a humble nudibranch. I would hope that everyone in this contentious thread could come together in agreement that when it comes to assholes, that flight attendant was a fucking asshole who should have been fired. I am sorry that you have never flown since. It’s fine not to fly if you hate it but it sucks not to fly because you’ve been shamed. You did not deserve that treatment.
posted by Bella Donna at 10:08 PM on February 22, 2020 [3 favorites]
A couple of other things: firstly, a few years ago I was travelling with a guitar quite a lot and having given up on the fight to carry it in the cabin I got used to stowing the guitar (an Ovation, which is built like a tank, in an Ovation case, which is also built like a tank) in the hold. When the British Airways started to charge this as an extra bag, I discovered it was often the same price or cheaper to buy one Club Europe (business class) ticket and one economy which gave a two bag allowance both ways. (They've since changed this policy so it won't happen again). I won't go into my complex adaptation to non-economy flying (I assumed I was going to be found out and ejected, despite the fact I was holding a ticket in my hand), but it was clear to me that at that level all the things that make flying stressful and unpleasant just go away. One of these being seats so close together that reclining one impinges on the person behind. (Although this differs between airlines - I found FinnAir was quite comfy, for example.)
The other thing is that it's clear that in economy, after the seats have moved so much closer together, the ability to recline the seat is a vestigial trait that no longer really functions properly and ought to be removed.
However, as a white guy, I find a certain comfort in the widespread support on Metafilter for the notion that because something one wants to do is technically possible and not actually illegal one should be able to just do it if one wants to no matter how much it impinges on the comfort and well-being of other people.
posted by Grangousier at 6:14 AM on February 23, 2020 [3 favorites]
The other thing is that it's clear that in economy, after the seats have moved so much closer together, the ability to recline the seat is a vestigial trait that no longer really functions properly and ought to be removed.
However, as a white guy, I find a certain comfort in the widespread support on Metafilter for the notion that because something one wants to do is technically possible and not actually illegal one should be able to just do it if one wants to no matter how much it impinges on the comfort and well-being of other people.
posted by Grangousier at 6:14 AM on February 23, 2020 [3 favorites]
I've definitely never noticed any difference in airline staff disposition.
The only time I've flown Spirit our flight was cancelled, and the last flight that day that would have made our connection was leaving in 20 minutes. The badass attendant in Cancun figured out that there were two empty seats, and got us through security and on that plane in about fifteen minutes.
US Airways, OTOH, can go fuck themselves.
posted by aspersioncast at 2:20 PM on February 23, 2020
The only time I've flown Spirit our flight was cancelled, and the last flight that day that would have made our connection was leaving in 20 minutes. The badass attendant in Cancun figured out that there were two empty seats, and got us through security and on that plane in about fifteen minutes.
US Airways, OTOH, can go fuck themselves.
posted by aspersioncast at 2:20 PM on February 23, 2020
Hawaiian Airlines has made some regrettable changes over the last few years but one of the things that I appreciate is they ask everyone to put their seats up during meal service, which by no means solves all the problems but at least it proactively reduces conflict over this one thing.
posted by deadbilly at 6:34 PM on February 23, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by deadbilly at 6:34 PM on February 23, 2020 [1 favorite]
It is kind if you can take up less space to make other people more comfortable. But I don't think it's reasonable to expect people have an obligation to give up some of their space to make you more comfortable.
But if the airline sold you a seat that is too small for you, that is not the fault of the passenger in front of you. The airline is the proper target of your anger if you don't have room for your knees or your laptop.
posted by straight at 6:12 PM on February 24, 2020
But if the airline sold you a seat that is too small for you, that is not the fault of the passenger in front of you. The airline is the proper target of your anger if you don't have room for your knees or your laptop.
posted by straight at 6:12 PM on February 24, 2020
On the other hand, I'd probably say there's a moral obligation to give up some of your space if it makes a big difference in someone else's comfort and not much difference to yours. But that seems like a judgment call the person sacrificing their space has to make, not something we can judge for ourselves and get angry if they don't do it.
posted by straight at 6:17 PM on February 24, 2020
posted by straight at 6:17 PM on February 24, 2020
This thread was a wild ride for sure. I travel 6-8 times a year for work. I don't recline unless it's going to be more than a couple hours as I avoid social interactions if possible but get terrible back pain if I'm in that position for long. If I sit in the aisle or window, I don't take the middle armrest. If people are standing in the aisle when deplaning, I let them go past me before occupying the aisle myself. I get the courtesy for all of this, but y'all with these rules about asking/not-asking have invented all of that in your individual heads. Expecting individual travelers, many of which travel rarely, to understand these rules is so silly! Those of you bringing your high amount of travel experience up, and asserting an agreement with others with similar experience (even as you're contradicted by others with similar experience), is silly too!
Also interesting is the contrast between this thread and the thread on the environmental impact of air travel. Leisure travel is a significant causative factor in ecological collapse - full stop. Yet the drum banged hard in that thread on that being a systemic issue that no one individual should be responsible for that as they seek out their respites because it's a systemic issue created by corporations for economic gain (liberal deflection, but logically consistent liberal deflection!). But now, when you yourself have experienced by-definition temporary discomfort forcefully and systemically implemented for economic gain by said airlines, it's not the airlines, but the individual! Why you're right here with me! Now it's your fault! You're a bad! You're a manspreading blight!
Metafilter: your dissonance is showing.
posted by avalonian at 9:54 AM on February 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
Also interesting is the contrast between this thread and the thread on the environmental impact of air travel. Leisure travel is a significant causative factor in ecological collapse - full stop. Yet the drum banged hard in that thread on that being a systemic issue that no one individual should be responsible for that as they seek out their respites because it's a systemic issue created by corporations for economic gain (liberal deflection, but logically consistent liberal deflection!). But now, when you yourself have experienced by-definition temporary discomfort forcefully and systemically implemented for economic gain by said airlines, it's not the airlines, but the individual! Why you're right here with me! Now it's your fault! You're a bad! You're a manspreading blight!
Metafilter: your dissonance is showing.
posted by avalonian at 9:54 AM on February 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
Burhanistan, on many forums I'd say you're right. But considering this is front page metafilter, on a similar topic, in the same month, with similar commenters espousing logically inconsistent positions with significant traction, I'd say it's not as fallacious as you assert.
I agree, though, it would be nice if people could stop the fallacious generalizations when they do indeed occur.
posted by avalonian at 10:58 AM on February 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
I agree, though, it would be nice if people could stop the fallacious generalizations when they do indeed occur.
posted by avalonian at 10:58 AM on February 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
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posted by nofundy at 3:12 PM on February 20, 2020 [35 favorites]