For Asian Americans, There Are Two Pandemics: COVID-19 And Daily Bigotry
April 5, 2020 12:31 PM   Subscribe

For Asian Americans, There Are Two Pandemics: COVID-19 And Daily Bigotry. Because COVID-19 originated in Wuhan, China, Asian Americans have been widely scapegoated, regardless of whether they’re Chinese or not. (Asian Americans ― Indonesians, Chinese, Koreans, Thai, Filipinos, and others ― aren’t a monolith, but for Americans with bigoted views, that hardly matters.)

An excerpt:
“My mother wanted to clarify that this was the third racist incident she’s personally experienced or witnessed on the train in the last few weeks,” Cruz said. “My parents are now working from home, where my mother misses her clients, but not the racists on the train.”
Wondering what you can do if you're not Asian American and want to help?
For those who aren’t Asian American, be an ally and speak up against injustice. Earlier this month, a viral video showed people on a train in the UK defending an Asian woman who was being racially harassed for wearing a mask to protect herself as a cancer survivor.

Responding thoughtfully in the moment like the traingoers is huge, especially if you have bystander training. But allyship can also just mean checking in on your Asian American friends to see how they’re doing, Mascardo said.
posted by rather be jorting (40 comments total)

This post was deleted for the following reason: Poster's Request -- frimble



 
White people giving me eye contact, a smile, and a wave or nod help my morale. You can do all that from 6+ feet away, and many masks don't hide the eye-crinkles from a genuine smile. Maybe some Asian-looking people would disagree with this, but so far, the ones I've talked to agree with me.

White people who totally ignore me when it's obvious they know I'm there (eg I've made eye contact with them, they look away expressionlessly and pretend I'm invisible) make me think "Potential bigot? Chronic pain sufferer who's out of spoons? White supremacist? Did their mother die this morning? Do they really really want to cough on me, but restraining themselves? Are they a health care worker who's out of spoons? Are they calling me "Chink" [etc] in their head?"

Talk about doing eye contact, etc, with us to your White friends and family, too.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 1:50 PM on April 5 [27 favorites]


White folks who are still moving around, it is also good to practice internally what you will do to intervene if you see someone being bigoted to an Asian person around you. That actually happened when we were at the Costco way back when the runs on groceries began--some white asshole ignored a whole bunch of white women and rammed his cart into an Asian guy out shopping and then began berating him for being in the way. My partner lit into the white guy for being racist and shouted at him, with all the other white women staring, until the Asian guy could get away. (He didn't even deny it, just told my partner to fuck off and then stalked away.) It's maybe one of the worst cases of open racism I've ever seen, and it is getting bad.

Even if you are not a big, scary person, you have a lot of power in social situations to call out injustice and try to keep your neighbors safe. As a short white woman, I can tell you that the optics of a white guy hitting me are bad enough that they will often pause until onlookers arrive to see what is happening with the shouting, which intensifies their shame and increases the odds of them slinking away. Bringing down public shame on racists is a powerful way to curtail some of this behavior. Make a plan for what you will do if you see something like this: it's a good way to practice what you want to do so that you can still move in the moment, past the shock of did I really just see this?

And... yes, of course, smile and brief eye contact. Literally the only people I've seen outside my household lately have been folks waiting at the bus stop and cyclists racing by me at daily walks, but I've been doing exactly that kind of brief friendly eye contact + smile there too. (Most of the former have been working-class black and occasionally Latine folks, given my neighborhood and who relies on public transit.) You don't gotta talk to people or force them to talk to you if they don't want to, but acknowledging other people and smiling is really important right now.
posted by sciatrix at 2:06 PM on April 5 [27 favorites]


This is absolutely enraging and utterly predictable that the racism by the White House would further embolden racists. An Asian friend of mine has a white partner and they've decided that the white partner needs to do all of the shopping and other essential errands for the time being. That's probably wise, but I hate that it's wise.
posted by TwoStride at 3:07 PM on April 5 [17 favorites]


Mixed-race Japanese American here, not white-passing but not usually pegged as Chinese in the way that seems to trigger coronavirus racism, anyway. Especially here in San Francisco where like 30 percent of the population is Asian. But if you have to start any discussion of a topic with an in-depth reflection on your own racial presentation, something's probably going on there, right?

Showing my privilege here, but while I've been aware of anti-Asian racism related to the coronavirus for months, I thought living in the Bay Area (and hell, being mixed) would insulate me from it the way it insulates many Asians from the worst of American racism. And then I sneezed on the bus (into my scarf, two weeks before San Francisco's stay at home order) and a white woman next to me flinched as if she had been slapped. And sure, maybe she'd have done that for any sneeze, but again, if you have to wonder...

And then that shot of Trump's notes with "covid" crossed out and replaced with "Chinese." And then more and more stories started coming out. And I see that more than one of the incidents in the article took place in the Bay Area. Oh, and a friend of mine was spat at this week. In San Francisco.

I don't really have anything smart or insightful to say about all this, but seeing as this thread has three comments and two have been deleted, I thought Metafilter might need the reminder that this is real and happening to real people and some of those real people are really on this website. And that it's not about white feelings. Honestly, it's kind of shameful that I have to say that. The article in the FPP is frankly hard to read and I'm left scratching my head that some non-Asians came away from that thinking "this is no big deal, and I'm also definitely the person who should decide that for everyone" or "yes, but how does this affect ME."

Oh, and fuck Andrew Yang. Fuckhead.

(My friend who was spat at is also half white, and I've been sitting here pondering if I should point that out or if it will come across as me thinking that having a white parent means it's somehow more unfair for you to face racism, and I really don't want to imply that because NO ONE should be facing this, but I finally landed on mentioning it just to emphasize that no one is really safe.)
posted by sunset in snow country at 3:10 PM on April 5 [41 favorites]


Thank you for the bystander training links.
posted by y2karl at 3:43 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]




Since you mentioned him, "sunset in show country", I'm wondering where/how Andrew Yang fits into this? I didn't catch him mentioned in the OP link (though I did not watch the entire 1.5 hour bystander video).

Genuinely curious. I'm not asking as a way to defend or attack him.
posted by SoberHighland at 4:56 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]


Oh. He wrote a nauseating op-ed suggesting that Asian Americans needed to show their patriotism to fight racism, as if we need to prove once again that we're American, as if we're not already volunteering and doing good in our communities. He even cited Japanese Americans fighting in WWII as a positive example, as if that got their families out of internment camps (but he didn't mention that part), as if it makes a difference when we're here 80 years later dealing with the same perpetual foreigner shit.

News link (I just grabbed the first google result)
posted by sunset in snow country at 5:24 PM on April 5 [24 favorites]


Stop AAPI Hate, a site for reporting discrimination and harassment incidents, has recorded more than 1,100 instances in its first two weeks of operation.

PBS NewsHour interview with Cynthia Choi, a director of Chinese for Affirmative Action, one of the founding organizations.
posted by XMLicious at 5:35 PM on April 5 [2 favorites]




Holy shit, I hadn't heard that he cited the internment camps in that garbage op-ed--I'd just read Arthur Chu's furious commentary and winced.

On the upside, I'm glad you mentioned that he did, because I went looking for George Takei's response (predictably enraged) and found this amazing laugh-while-you-sob response piece by comedian Jenny Yang, who I hadn't heard of before. "Here's my good American resume on the end of my six-foot social distancing pole! Why are you walking away?"

Clearly I need to go seek out more of her work.
posted by sciatrix at 5:49 PM on April 5 [8 favorites]


Since we are on this subject, and my reserves of patience and tact have all but run out:

The worst offenders who consistently use malicious names like "Wuhan pneumonia" are from Taiwan, and Hong Kong to a lesser extent. The Taiwanese government explicitly refused to stop using that name, which remains widely used on Taiwanese media.

I already cut off an immediate family member in Taiwan for tacit approval of this shit. I will never forget the way Taiwanese netizens attacked Jeremy Lin for speaking out against Trump using those malicious names. I will never forgive.

Thank you for working so hard to undermine Asian Americans at this hellish time. If I manage to survive the next few years of abject misery, I will devote most of my political energy to prevent Canada from getting involved in your political fights with China. That is a promise.
posted by fatehunter at 6:28 PM on April 5 [2 favorites]


Not the USA, but Vancouver BC. First time in at least a couple of decades that I've heard someone say "Chinaman" in a derogatory manner when I've been present, in this town at least.

Was having a smoke outside at work in a chainlink fenced yard, couple of mechanic type dudes were having a smoke across the street in their chainlink fenced in yard. They were shooting the shit and one guy raised his voice to talk about "filthy ... blahblahblah. They should blahblah..."

I looked over at them, the guy looked back at me, his friend took him by the elbow and led him back inside the garage.

otoh, the guy was probably too young to know other derogatory terms for Asians?
posted by porpoise at 6:30 PM on April 5


> [Yang] doesn't. he also never will, because the man has all the depth of a scallion pancake when it comes to thoughts on race.

No matter how much of a dumbshit he is, he has access to the op-ed section of the Times and we don't, so he gets access to the minds of millions of people, including national leadership, and we don't. See also: Tom Friedman, David Brooks, et fucking cetera.
posted by at by at 6:34 PM on April 5 [2 favorites]


Oh, and a friend of mine was spat at this week. In San Francisco.

I wondered if we knew the same woman, but I reread and saw it was this week, instead of two weeks ago. I'm sorry it happened to your friend.

Most of my 'Yang gang' acquaintances have done a 'no thank you' on him after his op-ed. I admit, as someone who side-eyed him about his 'identity politics' thing, this is sort of validating because everyone else I know seemed to not notice/care? But I'm not happy about the fact that my suspicions turned out to be right.

I've been so angry and upset that now I'm just tired with permanent heartburn (for reals, watch for my next ask).
posted by later, paladudes at 7:30 PM on April 5 [5 favorites]


Yeah, it's been sad watching friends from my extremely white* hobby passing around unironic jokes about how this is the longest anything imported from China has ever lasted, talking about the high population of Chinese people in the hardest-hit regions of Italy, expressing optimism about the course of the pandemic in the U.S. because we have "better sanitation," etc.

I confront them sometimes. Actually, often enough that I have a semi-template now with a few links from the local government on various topics. But increasingly I'm just noting who said what and moving on. So far, there's only one person on the good list.

* "extremely white": I've been repeatedly mistaken for another Asian hobbyist. He lives thousands of miles away. He also looks like he's several inches taller and several stone lighter.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 9:42 PM on April 5 [13 favorites]


I was thinking about moving to a swing state earlier this year, and now I'm incredibly glad that I didn't. Irvine isn't perfect, but Asian-Americans are a plurality here and that to some extent comforts me. What's happening right now just exposes how quickly and easily Asian-Americans can be othered. Attempted assimilation will never save us.

Re: Taiwan, I don't think that people there should be required to stand in solidarity with a country that is very legitimately a threat to them for the sake of Asians in the West. A lot of the anger there specifically comes from Taiwan being excluded from the WHO during a global pandemic because of the Mainland. The attacks on Jeremy Lin are super shitty and Taiwanese people shouldn't comment on US racial dynamics that they don't have any idea about, but the intersections of nationality and global politics are super, super complicated there.

I feel like a lot of us who've lived in the Sinosphere and still have ties there are in this weird place where we're synthesizing information from two different hemispheres at once. I've been hearing news about the pandemic since January - my best friend from Shanghai was visiting family in Beijing for New Year's. I saw racist Americans using Taiwan and Li Wenliang as a cudgel side by side with posts from people suffering the brunt of the pandemic in Mainland China. My friend and I were talking about how we've both quietly decided to only talk about China among other diaspora people who've lived there (even Asian-Americans can be super US-centric sometimes, which is understandable but not very helpful), but it sucks to have to thread that needle.

As a suggestion for what allies can do as well as rehearsing how to intervene in public: pay attention to Chinese voices. Read Sixth Tone or the South China Morning Post or something. Remind yourself that these are people living on the other side of the world.
posted by storytam at 11:52 PM on April 5 [10 favorites]


Re: Taiwan, I don't think that people there should be required to stand in solidarity with a country that is very legitimately a threat to them for the sake of Asians in the West.

I don't stand in solidarity with North Korea, Russia, etc. That does not mean I will maliciously name a pandemic after the place where it first caused unspeakable human suffering, just because that place is governed by one of those regimes.

On MetaFilter at least, there should be no need to articulate the reasons against naming pandemics after places. That practice is Racism & Xenophobia 101.

The Taiwanese - I have excluded myself from that group, despite growing up in Taiwan and having most of my family/relatives there - can fight China however they please. But their ugly tactics are directly harming Asian immigrants everywhere, and we have the right to push back for our own safety. Why on earth should Vietnamese Americans or Korean Canadians or any of us suffer because they are angry about WHO?

The very fact that the Taiwanese are aligning themselves with Trump's camp speaks volumes (hell, even Trump has walked back on this). I will never, ever forget.
posted by fatehunter at 1:15 AM on April 6 [8 favorites]


Like I said, it's a really complicated situation! Even though I can to some extent understand anti-Mainland sentiment in Taiwan and HK (I've had my own experiences in HK as a Mandarin speaker) and the political decisions and positioning people there make, I don't agree with a lot of the decisions people are making there. But again, that's not a conversation that I'll necessarily have where non-diaspora people can see it, if that makes sense? Plus this is not a post about Asian politics so I don't want to derail, you can MeMail if you want to talk more. I definitely see where you're coming from, though. Sometimes it feels worse (for TW & for op-eds like Andrew Yang) when it's "your own" people.

Back to the article: it's not surprising but heartbreaking how little it takes for people to turn on us. I think sometimes all they're looking for is an excuse and an acceptable target. If it's not the coronavirus then it's the real estate market or North Korea or whatever the hell their shitty racist brains have dreamed up this week. The coronavirus is making it much worse on a larger scale, but I think it just drives home how damn little it takes.
posted by storytam at 4:48 AM on April 6 [6 favorites]


The bystander training link in the OP seem to imagine a situation where you're actually in a conversation, such as hearing a racist comment from the person in the workstation next to yours. Could someone please recommend a short one or two page pamphlet with best practices if I see aggressive racism at the store or on the street? Where I have moments to react and the situation could potentially get physical? I'm finding it surprisingly difficult to find guidance for something like that. There's "Six tips to avoid being a bystander when witnessing a racist attack" (Boing Boing) but it's a video and has tips like "Organize & Protest for Justice" which is a good idea but not really an in-the-moment sort of thing.
posted by bright flowers at 6:42 AM on April 6 [3 favorites]


I've seen bystander intervention training using a "3 Ds" (or 4 Ds or 5 Ds) framework - e.g. direct (get directly involved by confronting the attacker), distract (create a distraction that interrupts the incident, like asking the victim for the time), delegate (find another party to intervene).

Here's a link to an SPLC page and brochure with more info, but there are other materials and training with this framework online as well.
posted by cdefgfeadgagfe at 7:49 AM on April 6 [1 favorite]


Thank you for the links. Please forgive me if this next question is clueless, but, given the groups at risk of COVID-19 bigotry, does that modify the normal recommendation to avoid police involvement in almost all circumstances? Most intervention information seems aimed at confronting harassment of groups that have had historically bad dealings with police. I don't know if the COVID-19 bigotry risk groups fall into that category, or not.
posted by bright flowers at 8:45 AM on April 6


Is it possible to get something reported as a hate crime without the involvement of the police? On one hand, it's hard to tell if you'll get a racist cop. On the other, without official stats, I'm worried people won't take it seriously, and perpetrators need to face some kind of consequences to dissuade them.

(As a bystander, I'd go with what the victim wants. But as someone personally targeted, I would have no idea what to do.)
posted by airmail at 10:15 AM on April 6


Part of my thinking here is that a lot of the people who are going to do this stuff respect police and might tone it down immediately if a cop shows up, whereas if I get personally involved it could turn into a shouting match or worse that makes the harassed person even more uncomfortable. Similarly I think some people, older, more affluent might prefer dealing with a cop than with some rando like me.

Anyway I guess with street harassment these things usually start and stop too quickly for a cop to show up unless they're already right there. But I appreciate your response anem0ne.
posted by bright flowers at 11:33 AM on April 6


Hey, I kind of like the moniker "sunset in show country" ;) But just to point out something anem0ne and I are doing here for those who haven't noticed it: I dropped in a "fuck you Andrew Yang" without context because in my Asian American communities right now, no context is necessary. Everyone knows what he did and why I would say that. anem0ne also referenced Sa-i-gu. What's that? It's expected that you'll know. I know this is a pretty white space and a lot of people actually don't know offhand what Andrew Yang did or what Sa-i-gu refers to, but these are easy to Google (if you search for Andrew Yang's name the top results are all about his op-ed and the backlash). We're deliberately challenging the centering of white perspectives and backgrounds by talking exactly as we would amongst ourselves, and since a lot of white people are not privy to those conversations I think, frankly, it's good for them to experience it. But it does make it more jarring when people show up and expect the work to be done for them. I can't blame anyone per se because it comes out of a helpful impulse. I guess what's hitting weird for me is the expectation that there is an answer, which kind of seems to imply that these ugly incidents are more, I don't know, neatly resolvable than they are. We can talk through it, but every situation and every person is going to be different.
posted by sunset in snow country at 12:29 PM on April 6 [20 favorites]


I appreciate the people in this thread who have shared information and expressed solidarity.
posted by sunset in snow country at 12:30 PM on April 6


I'm sorry I misread the intent of this post to be POC-only. I understand from this MetaTalk that white participation in POC threads can be problematic and the "poctakeover" tag is sometimes used to mark these spaces. I'll look for that tag going forward and but even if it's not there, I'll try in general to be more aware. Thanks for everyone's time.
posted by bright flowers at 1:02 PM on April 6 [1 favorite]


It's not a POC-only thread, it's a thread about POC issues where there is a reasonable assumption that people, especially non-POC people, who may not be conversant with all the topics can do the work on their own to gain some context.
posted by jessamyn at 1:09 PM on April 6 [10 favorites]


I guess what's hitting weird for me is the expectation that there is an answer, which kind of seems to imply that these ugly incidents are more, I don't know, neatly resolvable than they are. We can talk through it, but every situation and every person is going to be different.

One of the things I am appreciating from listening to y'all is the discussion of that exact messiness. Like, Andrew Yang's fuckery, that shit I can Google easily. All I have to do is put in a set of search terms, and I can have a pretty good idea about what to hunt for by listening. But you can't do that messiness--quorum-sensing about what folks think might be helpful or not helpful, for example, or getting a sense for how people are feeling and coping--through a Google search engine. The thing is, people are squishy and complicated and they have wildly different (and sometimes opposed) coping mechanisms, and you can't get a sense for how heavy this burden is unless you sit and listen to a lot of different people. I find that aspect of this space to be incredibly valuable.

I can imagine a lot of situations involving this kind of violence or harassment where calling the cops is the right call. I can also imagine a lot of situations where it would absolutely not be the right call to do. It depends on the threat of violence to myself and the tone of the bystanders and how many people are watching and how scary the threat is and how well I can de-escalate on my own. The problem with guidelines in hard-and-fast situations is that every situation is going to be slightly different, and sometimes you are just not going to get clear opinions on whether or not doing a specific thing is the Right Thing to do--often not even after you do it and get hit with the consequences. All you can do is listen to whoever is most directly affected, ask what they might like for next time, and try to follow up going forwards.

But one of the things about this messiness, being in this space as a guest, is that I do not get to dictate what the space talks about. No matter how much I think it's a great thing to talk about! The space isn't for me even if I am part of it; I am here as a guest, with a guest's expectations and a guest's manners. I'm here to mingle at a party and listen to what other folks have to say.

And I'm going to go teach myself about Sa-i-gu now, because I had never heard of this aspect of that event.
posted by sciatrix at 1:49 PM on April 6 [5 favorites]


[comment (and reply) removed, please try to keep this about the topic. Thank you.]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:01 PM on April 6


This is why we can't have nice things.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 4:56 PM on April 6


I understand from this MetaTalk that white participation in POC threads can be problematic and the "poctakeover" tag is sometimes used to mark these spaces.

Yeah, no. #poctakeover was (and is) a little side project to highlight POC issues.

It's a joke - it's not literally a takeover, we were and are not trying to exclude people.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:28 PM on April 6 [6 favorites]


FYI, AAJC is running two free bystander intervention virtual training sessions addressing anti-Asian xenophobia and hate on Wed 4/8 and Thu 4/9. Share with your friends, etc.
posted by cdefgfeadgagfe at 10:51 AM on April 7 [3 favorites]


NBC: 'Tigertail' director Alan Yang on the unspoken stories behind Asian parents' journey to America
[Alan] Yang admits that it’s an odd time to promote a movie, with the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic still affecting populations across the world. It’s even more so daunting to be sharing a very Asian American story during a time in which hate attacks toward those in the community have been on the rise. Ma himself was outside a grocery store in Pasadena, California, when a driver rolled down his window and told him that he “should be quarantined.”

But maybe, Yang said, a movie like “Tigertail” is timely given the surreal circumstances so many are living in. It can give the Asian American community some sense of unity, he believes.

“I had really wished that the country had progressed beyond this point, but it clearly hasn't,” he said. “I think that film can be a way for Asian Americans to come together and watch something that reinforces their strength and their perseverance and their level of sacrifice and coming to this country.”
Huffington Post: ‘Master of None’ Co-Creator Alan Yang’s Latest Project Is His Most Personal One Yet
“It had been 25 years since ‘The Joy Luck Club’ and it was before ‘Crazy Rich Asians’ and before ‘The Farewell,’” Yang said. “It was before even an Asian movie like ‘Parasite’ won all the Oscars. The idea of an entirely Asian and Asian American cast seemed like lunacy.” [...]

“We’re talking about three or four movies, and if you look at the history of American cinema, that’s tens of thousands of movies,” he said. “We have a lot of ground to make up and the next step for me is a range of roles and a range of Asian American lead characters that we haven’t seen before. You know, we haven’t seen an Asian American Indiana Jones, we haven’t seen an Asian American Furiosa, we haven’t seen an Asian American Ron Burgundy. It’s going to take a lot of work, but we’re going to get there and I can’t wait.”
posted by Apocryphon at 3:55 PM on April 7 [3 favorites]


Why on earth should Vietnamese Americans or Korean Canadians or any of us suffer because they are angry about WHO?

Well, I agree that it's bad for folks in Taiwan to use the term and I am sorry for anyone that's suffered anti-Asian bigotry over this whole mess, but Taiwan and Hong Kong are not the main cause of suffering here. They don't have anywhere near the power or influence that President Donald Trump has and they certainly are not responsible for the centuries of anti-Asian racism in the West.
posted by FJT at 8:54 PM on April 9 [1 favorite]


The slur I never expected to hear in 2020

In the past, I had a habit of minimizing anti-Asian racism because it had been drilled into me early on that racism against Asians didn’t exist. Anytime that I raised concerns about a racial comment, I was told that it wasn’t racial. Anytime I brought up an anti-Asian incident, a white person interjected that it was a distraction from the more important issue (and there was always a more important issue). I’ve been conditioned to think my second-class citizenry was low on the scale of oppression and therefore not worth bringing up even though every single Asian-American I know has stories of being emasculated, fetishized, humiliated, underpaid, fired or demoted because of our racial identities.
posted by Comrade_robot at 9:21 AM on April 12 [6 favorites]




Showing Up for Racial Justice just posted a link to a Combating Anti-Asian Racism and Covid-19 Toolkit. Here's the Facebook post where I saw it (for a bit more context than the form gives), and the form where you can download the toolkit.
posted by sunset in snow country at 4:32 PM on April 21 [3 favorites]




I put a 1-touch video recording app on my phone (RecordButton), and have been practicing whipping it out of my pocket and recording my spouse during our neighborhood walks. If some asshole gets in my face for longer than a drive-by shouting, I'm recording it: "Say that again, Karen. If you're proud of yourself you'll say it loud and proud. Be brave!"

A friend mentioned on Facebook on Mar 1 that she'd experienced COVID-19-related racism. I finally got around to sending her the AAPI Incident Report form (English; multilingual). I told her if she didn't want to report it, that's understandable (she's really shy and I don't know details, but I gather it was a drive-by verbal incident); and if she didn't mind reporting it, then having it registered is having others bearing witness. That's worthy of doing. She replied that she would report it.

Thinking of posting on Facebook something like this: "If I report explicit racists targeting me, I don't want to hear White friends saying 'I'm sorry.' Tell me how Ijeoma Uluo's So You Want To Talk About Race showed you how to do antiracism better. Tell me something specific you learned at your latest SURJ meeting. Tell me the most recent interaction that made you realize all over again how White you are. Tell me how your African-American or Indigenous friends challenged your self-perception as a 99%-Racially Woke person, and how you changed a habit as a result. 'I'm sorry' is useless to me and the younger generations coming up behind me."
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 2:03 PM on April 24 [2 favorites]


« Older Alcatraz to the 9th Power Revisited aka Visions of...   |   His landscape has folded the last time Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments