The Hartzian View
June 3, 2020 9:53 PM Subscribe
The Great American Breakup Political scientist Louis Hartz accurately described the United States’ underlying cultural hyperindividualism. Is the next logical step the dissolution of the centralized federal state to become more like the EU?
In which the author lays out a description of the American present:
While our cities burn in America’s latest “race” riots, the COVID-19 death toll continues to rise. [...] Nothing has been solved yet everyone is ready to throw in the towel—not just on the quarantine but on trying in general.
[...] This is a country with more firearms than people. The American story is in its third act. In accordance with Chekhov’s famous dictum, at some point in time—sooner rather than later—those guns will fire.
And proposes a possible future:
Once California or New York begin the process of secession—and, don’t kid yourself, a second Trump term would stimulate serious discussion— Texas state legislators will do absolutely anything to beat them to it. Utah, Idaho, Montana, and Arizona—all at once—will follow the next day. [...] Without knowing it, our post-1960s culture war was leading us here the whole time. It just needed one last push.
We need to end the “United States” and start an American Union—a coalition of independent nation-states with close trade ties, freedom of movement and employment across borders, and provisions for common defense, but independence outside that. [...] Californians should no more seek to control the social policies of Georgia than they should those of Indonesia. Likewise, Alabamans should no more seek to hamper or control the environmental policies of New York City than they do Afghanistan. Arizona legislators would probably have no problem with a Medicare for All–like health care plan if they managed it themselves.
The leap from A to B is informed by a thinker called Louis Hartz:
Hartz theorized that all American political thought remained trapped in the 17th- and 18th-century Anglo-liberalism of John Locke—all our social and legal issues are understood only through the lens of the individual [...] America never developed a socialist or even the “tory” classical conservative traditions found in Europe—both of which were dependent on class consciousness, one defending class privileges and the other wishing to destroy them.
Most Americans don’t find the arguments of Vox and Slate writers convincing because they are not arguments directed toward people who are recognizably American. Rather, they are most often mere expressions of contempt [...] Self-styled progressive elites [...] would like to think they can build a highly educated, highly efficient federal bureaucratic class that Americans honor and respect, but that just isn’t going to happen [...] It’s not who we are.
Elitist progressives and America’s earnest young social democrats often behave like a naive boy with a crush on the badass, beautiful, rebel girl. They think America secretly “would want” statism “if only” it could “get to know it a little bit.” Let’s end this fantasy.
(My first front page post.)
In which the author lays out a description of the American present:
While our cities burn in America’s latest “race” riots, the COVID-19 death toll continues to rise. [...] Nothing has been solved yet everyone is ready to throw in the towel—not just on the quarantine but on trying in general.
[...] This is a country with more firearms than people. The American story is in its third act. In accordance with Chekhov’s famous dictum, at some point in time—sooner rather than later—those guns will fire.
And proposes a possible future:
Once California or New York begin the process of secession—and, don’t kid yourself, a second Trump term would stimulate serious discussion— Texas state legislators will do absolutely anything to beat them to it. Utah, Idaho, Montana, and Arizona—all at once—will follow the next day. [...] Without knowing it, our post-1960s culture war was leading us here the whole time. It just needed one last push.
We need to end the “United States” and start an American Union—a coalition of independent nation-states with close trade ties, freedom of movement and employment across borders, and provisions for common defense, but independence outside that. [...] Californians should no more seek to control the social policies of Georgia than they should those of Indonesia. Likewise, Alabamans should no more seek to hamper or control the environmental policies of New York City than they do Afghanistan. Arizona legislators would probably have no problem with a Medicare for All–like health care plan if they managed it themselves.
The leap from A to B is informed by a thinker called Louis Hartz:
Hartz theorized that all American political thought remained trapped in the 17th- and 18th-century Anglo-liberalism of John Locke—all our social and legal issues are understood only through the lens of the individual [...] America never developed a socialist or even the “tory” classical conservative traditions found in Europe—both of which were dependent on class consciousness, one defending class privileges and the other wishing to destroy them.
Most Americans don’t find the arguments of Vox and Slate writers convincing because they are not arguments directed toward people who are recognizably American. Rather, they are most often mere expressions of contempt [...] Self-styled progressive elites [...] would like to think they can build a highly educated, highly efficient federal bureaucratic class that Americans honor and respect, but that just isn’t going to happen [...] It’s not who we are.
Elitist progressives and America’s earnest young social democrats often behave like a naive boy with a crush on the badass, beautiful, rebel girl. They think America secretly “would want” statism “if only” it could “get to know it a little bit.” Let’s end this fantasy.
(My first front page post.)
But if the dissolution of the nation means the end of ICE and concentration camps for children, I'm totally willing to listen.
More likely the dissolution of the nation would mean the rollback of every civil right won since the 1870s.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 10:33 PM on June 3, 2020 [67 favorites]
More likely the dissolution of the nation would mean the rollback of every civil right won since the 1870s.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 10:33 PM on June 3, 2020 [67 favorites]
the dysfunctionality of America’s piddly welfare state and its pathetic payout system is on some level intentional.
There's a missing protagonist in there. It's not government in a general sense that is intentionally dysfunctional, it's Grover Norquist and his scions who seek to drown government in a bathtub.
That "intentionality" does refer to Grover Norquist and a long history of others like him who are and have been exceptionally resistant to strong federal government. The author is right to point out that much of the immigration to the US comes from this same sort of desire to be "free" from government intervention, as those who come have experienced it or imagine it to be, right or wrong. That can cross weird racial and economic barriers, I say as someone who has worked for or with a larger number of minority business owners and co-workers who distrust or downright dislike liberalism and the left.
The distrust of government and politicians in the US isn't just from the past 60 years. It has a long history with perhaps a brief respite during the Roosevelt era and immediately following WWII. It is a ingrained part of US heritage and needs to be understood as such in much the way the author suggests. That doesn't mean I necessarily agree with the rest of the argument or his conclusions on what should be done, I don't know if that is easier or better than continuing to try and build a more effective federal government, but I'm not sure it isn't a path we're going down either, regardless of what might be best.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:52 PM on June 3, 2020 [4 favorites]
There's a missing protagonist in there. It's not government in a general sense that is intentionally dysfunctional, it's Grover Norquist and his scions who seek to drown government in a bathtub.
That "intentionality" does refer to Grover Norquist and a long history of others like him who are and have been exceptionally resistant to strong federal government. The author is right to point out that much of the immigration to the US comes from this same sort of desire to be "free" from government intervention, as those who come have experienced it or imagine it to be, right or wrong. That can cross weird racial and economic barriers, I say as someone who has worked for or with a larger number of minority business owners and co-workers who distrust or downright dislike liberalism and the left.
The distrust of government and politicians in the US isn't just from the past 60 years. It has a long history with perhaps a brief respite during the Roosevelt era and immediately following WWII. It is a ingrained part of US heritage and needs to be understood as such in much the way the author suggests. That doesn't mean I necessarily agree with the rest of the argument or his conclusions on what should be done, I don't know if that is easier or better than continuing to try and build a more effective federal government, but I'm not sure it isn't a path we're going down either, regardless of what might be best.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:52 PM on June 3, 2020 [4 favorites]
the inconceivable lameness of the Democratic establishment that fomented its lame “resistance” based on a childlike conspiracy theory and belief in the inherent honesty and goodness of internal security cops
…
Once California or New York begin the process of secession—and, don’t kid yourself, a second Trump term would stimulate serious discussion…
Congrats on your first FPP! I hope you do many more! But man, if you are referring to the, uh, established fact of Russian election interference as a childlike conspiracy theory and think that the states are going to secede (or, sorry, “seriously” consider it) AFTER WE FOUGHT A DANG CIVIL WAR AND ARE NOT ACTUALLY ALLOWED TO DO SO I am not that convinced by the author’s analysis. Like, this seems to be a more probable cause of an American crack-up:
1) The President loses.
2) The President blames some sort of conspiracy, QAnon folks go nuts, etc.
3) The President remains in office.
4) Now all bets are off because the constitution is broke and we apparently live in Hungary.
… except that we live in a dang purple nation where most of the states are split pretty evenly between the two parties in the first place! So even in the Hungary scenario, no one tries to get out because a big chunk of their population would hate it.
… And besides -besides!- all that, a big thread of the ongoing George Floyd protests is surely that this is essentially a POC nation, and that black folks are in some sense the staunchest patriots because they cannot give up, and do not give up on this place (with many caveats that this is greatly oversimplifying a minority group). The fight is for radical change, not divorce, and this thesis seems to not even want to reckon with that. People are marching in the streets because it’s our country too, not because we are on the verge of taking our collective ball and going home. (Without a doubt, if the President were to win another election, many folks who were able would probably begin to re-evaluate their own ability to migrate to foreign parts, which would surely contribute to American decline, but that isn’t what this piece is arguing either…)
posted by Going To Maine at 10:57 PM on June 3, 2020 [32 favorites]
…
Once California or New York begin the process of secession—and, don’t kid yourself, a second Trump term would stimulate serious discussion…
Congrats on your first FPP! I hope you do many more! But man, if you are referring to the, uh, established fact of Russian election interference as a childlike conspiracy theory and think that the states are going to secede (or, sorry, “seriously” consider it) AFTER WE FOUGHT A DANG CIVIL WAR AND ARE NOT ACTUALLY ALLOWED TO DO SO I am not that convinced by the author’s analysis. Like, this seems to be a more probable cause of an American crack-up:
1) The President loses.
2) The President blames some sort of conspiracy, QAnon folks go nuts, etc.
3) The President remains in office.
4) Now all bets are off because the constitution is broke and we apparently live in Hungary.
… except that we live in a dang purple nation where most of the states are split pretty evenly between the two parties in the first place! So even in the Hungary scenario, no one tries to get out because a big chunk of their population would hate it.
… And besides -besides!- all that, a big thread of the ongoing George Floyd protests is surely that this is essentially a POC nation, and that black folks are in some sense the staunchest patriots because they cannot give up, and do not give up on this place (with many caveats that this is greatly oversimplifying a minority group). The fight is for radical change, not divorce, and this thesis seems to not even want to reckon with that. People are marching in the streets because it’s our country too, not because we are on the verge of taking our collective ball and going home. (Without a doubt, if the President were to win another election, many folks who were able would probably begin to re-evaluate their own ability to migrate to foreign parts, which would surely contribute to American decline, but that isn’t what this piece is arguing either…)
posted by Going To Maine at 10:57 PM on June 3, 2020 [32 favorites]
Listening to his more-than-likely demented Democratic Party opponent try to form coherent sentences makes drinking bleach seem like a palatable alternative.
In hindsight, I should have stopped here.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:59 PM on June 3, 2020 [26 favorites]
In hindsight, I should have stopped here.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:59 PM on June 3, 2020 [26 favorites]
established fact of Russian election interference as a childlike conspiracy theory
There are plenty of people who have veered into total conspiracy theory territory over Russian interference, even though there is also some truth there.
posted by atoxyl at 2:06 AM on June 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
There are plenty of people who have veered into total conspiracy theory territory over Russian interference, even though there is also some truth there.
posted by atoxyl at 2:06 AM on June 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
In hindsight, I should have stopped here.
Well you could always try to interpret the prospect of "shoot them in the leg" Joe Biden vs. Trump as dark comedy instead of tragedy.
posted by atoxyl at 2:12 AM on June 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
Well you could always try to interpret the prospect of "shoot them in the leg" Joe Biden vs. Trump as dark comedy instead of tragedy.
posted by atoxyl at 2:12 AM on June 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
Weirdly one of my first impressions reading this is that it already feels fairly dated, though?
And yeah this:
except that we live in a dang purple nation where most of the states are split pretty evenly between the two parties in the first place!
Seems like one of the biggest things wrong with the core thesis? Maybe we should start splitting the states up, instead!
posted by atoxyl at 2:19 AM on June 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
And yeah this:
except that we live in a dang purple nation where most of the states are split pretty evenly between the two parties in the first place!
Seems like one of the biggest things wrong with the core thesis? Maybe we should start splitting the states up, instead!
posted by atoxyl at 2:19 AM on June 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
Hartz posited that there were unchanging, transhistorical American values that persisted through time. This is quite a controversial claim that many (myself, for instance, and also anyone that wants to believe in the possibility of social change) do not accept, given the historical, regional, demographic, etc. etc. variability of the American experience. American class consciousness, to mention one example, was quite well developed in the late 19th century -- the US had a higher unionization rate than the UK, not to mention the many quite bitter labor struggles experienced through its process of industrialization.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 3:15 AM on June 4, 2020 [17 favorites]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 3:15 AM on June 4, 2020 [17 favorites]
Seems like one of the biggest things wrong with the core thesis? Maybe we should start splitting the states up, instead!
That is way too chunky of a solution. I think a more elegant option would be a Ulan Dhor or a City and the City type approach. We can all live in the same locations, we will just pretend not to see each other or interact in any way.
posted by Balna Watya at 3:49 AM on June 4, 2020 [7 favorites]
That is way too chunky of a solution. I think a more elegant option would be a Ulan Dhor or a City and the City type approach. We can all live in the same locations, we will just pretend not to see each other or interact in any way.
posted by Balna Watya at 3:49 AM on June 4, 2020 [7 favorites]
Good post, thanks. I think sweeping generalizations in the vein of "Americans are so individualistic, heritage of Locke" are interesting as after-dinner musings over brandy, but they're hard to operationalize, in the sense that the concept tends to fall apart whenever you try to apply it to any particular person, group, or era. Still, I think it makes sense to talk of a specifically American outlook, as opposed to, say, the English or Russian outlook, just like it makes sense to talk about triangles even though there is no such thing as a perfect triangle to be found in the entire universe.
But it's interesting to compare and contrast the Constitution of the US and the Constitution of the Confederacy in light of this piece. The US Constitution says: "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union..." where the Confederate Constitution starts out: "We, the people of the Confederate States, each state acting in its sovereign and independent character, in order to form a permanent federal government...".
When you look at the Maastricht Treaty (1992), it says: "By this Treaty, the High Contracting Parties establish among themselves a European Union, hereinafter called 'the Union'. This Treaty marks a new stage in the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe..."
The language of the EU Treaty seems closer to that of the US Constitution, while what's being proposed in the article is closer to the Confederate Constitution.
posted by dmh at 3:49 AM on June 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
But it's interesting to compare and contrast the Constitution of the US and the Constitution of the Confederacy in light of this piece. The US Constitution says: "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union..." where the Confederate Constitution starts out: "We, the people of the Confederate States, each state acting in its sovereign and independent character, in order to form a permanent federal government...".
When you look at the Maastricht Treaty (1992), it says: "By this Treaty, the High Contracting Parties establish among themselves a European Union, hereinafter called 'the Union'. This Treaty marks a new stage in the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe..."
The language of the EU Treaty seems closer to that of the US Constitution, while what's being proposed in the article is closer to the Confederate Constitution.
posted by dmh at 3:49 AM on June 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
The irony being, I guess, that the article (in typical American fashion! /s), projects this sweeping narrative of global affairs through an American lens, and uses that projection to argue for a looser political union that's supposedly more befitting of American character. But in doing so it ends up (knowingly? unknowingly? author has no sense of history?) reformulating the vision of the Confederates while disregarding that the EU Treaties themselves are in fact animated by the vision to form an "ever closer union" and one day, maybe, become a kind of United States of Europe.
posted by dmh at 4:11 AM on June 4, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by dmh at 4:11 AM on June 4, 2020 [9 favorites]
That is way too chunky of a solution. I think a more elegant option would be a Ulan Dhor or a City and the City type approach. We can all live in the same locations, we will just pretend not to see each other or interact in any way.
A superposition of city-states, if you will.
posted by atoxyl at 4:41 AM on June 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
A superposition of city-states, if you will.
posted by atoxyl at 4:41 AM on June 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
One thing I'm wondering is, to quote Monty Python, “whither Canada?”
If the US dissolves into a EU-style union of divergent states, will Canada remain a monolithic federation, or will the chain reaction dissolve it as well? Could BC end up joining Cascadia or whatever it's called? Would we end up with all the Canadian territories becoming members of the North American Union alongside US states? Would there be a Brussels/Strasbourg-like split with two parliaments, one in DC and one perhaps somewhere in Ontario, or a new federal district, perhaps around Detroit/Windsor? Could we see Quebec decline to join to retain a defiant independence, like a sort of North American Serbia?
posted by acb at 5:35 AM on June 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
If the US dissolves into a EU-style union of divergent states, will Canada remain a monolithic federation, or will the chain reaction dissolve it as well? Could BC end up joining Cascadia or whatever it's called? Would we end up with all the Canadian territories becoming members of the North American Union alongside US states? Would there be a Brussels/Strasbourg-like split with two parliaments, one in DC and one perhaps somewhere in Ontario, or a new federal district, perhaps around Detroit/Windsor? Could we see Quebec decline to join to retain a defiant independence, like a sort of North American Serbia?
posted by acb at 5:35 AM on June 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
I *knew* buying all those Ameros back in the day would eventually pay off big!
posted by briank at 6:34 AM on June 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by briank at 6:34 AM on June 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
I doubt it - Canada is unified by their shared values, specifically that they're Not American. If what being American means changes, Canada will change to suit.
I think part of the problem with this argument is that America is already pretty dang weird. It's hard to predict what parts of America will snap back to something like shared consensus if America breaks up, and what parts will just get weirder, and that makes any kind of co-ordination impossible. I'd imagine the states separating probably won't result in a loose coalition of shared interests, because, for example, Cascadia probably have more interest in exploring free trade agreements with the EU and Asia before, say, Appalachia. (If California leaves America it's still in the G8 on its own. New England will probably reach out to New York and Canada first, and if Canada decides to make adopting the metric system a pre-requisite for future trade, that's one less point of economic alignment with the Confederate states.
Also y'all can barely stand each other when you're supposedly all Americans; you think that's going to improve if you formally separate? I'd imagine Texas would invade someone within the first decade of secession. The EU, by contrast, came out of a period of extremely traumatic division, where unification was seen as a solution. If America breaks up, it's breaking all the way up.
posted by Merus at 6:35 AM on June 4, 2020 [5 favorites]
I think part of the problem with this argument is that America is already pretty dang weird. It's hard to predict what parts of America will snap back to something like shared consensus if America breaks up, and what parts will just get weirder, and that makes any kind of co-ordination impossible. I'd imagine the states separating probably won't result in a loose coalition of shared interests, because, for example, Cascadia probably have more interest in exploring free trade agreements with the EU and Asia before, say, Appalachia. (If California leaves America it's still in the G8 on its own. New England will probably reach out to New York and Canada first, and if Canada decides to make adopting the metric system a pre-requisite for future trade, that's one less point of economic alignment with the Confederate states.
Also y'all can barely stand each other when you're supposedly all Americans; you think that's going to improve if you formally separate? I'd imagine Texas would invade someone within the first decade of secession. The EU, by contrast, came out of a period of extremely traumatic division, where unification was seen as a solution. If America breaks up, it's breaking all the way up.
posted by Merus at 6:35 AM on June 4, 2020 [5 favorites]
Elitist progressives and America’s earnest young social democrats often behave like a naive boy with a crush on the badass, beautiful, rebel girl. They think America secretly “would want” statism “if only” it could “get to know it a little bit.” Let’s end this fantasy.
That's a cute turn of phrase, but I'm not buying his argument. Take this: "Californians should no more seek to control the social policies of Georgia than they should those of Indonesia." Well, why not, if what's being referred to as "social policies" are actually human rights? And we're much more likely to get into a second Civil War, which, given the massive amount of guns in the country and the concentration of federal military facilities in the South, would likely make the first one look like a mildly contentious turkey shoot. That's not so much of a problem with Indonesia.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:40 AM on June 4, 2020 [10 favorites]
That's a cute turn of phrase, but I'm not buying his argument. Take this: "Californians should no more seek to control the social policies of Georgia than they should those of Indonesia." Well, why not, if what's being referred to as "social policies" are actually human rights? And we're much more likely to get into a second Civil War, which, given the massive amount of guns in the country and the concentration of federal military facilities in the South, would likely make the first one look like a mildly contentious turkey shoot. That's not so much of a problem with Indonesia.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:40 AM on June 4, 2020 [10 favorites]
If the US dissolves into a EU-style union of divergent states, will Canada remain a monolithic federation, or will the chain reaction dissolve it as well?
I don't imagine Canada would join this new NA-union, at least not for a generation. So much of our national identity is in being not-american, and when we talk about threats to our national sovereignty we're almost always talking about America. The generations raised on that would have to pass on before union would be politically palatable.
But I could see an American dissolution really pouring kerosene on the fire of our various regional independence movements and trigger a lot of rethinking of our constitution and what confederation means. It would be the most interesting thing to happen in Canadian politics since the Meech Lake accord!
posted by selenized at 7:18 AM on June 4, 2020
I don't imagine Canada would join this new NA-union, at least not for a generation. So much of our national identity is in being not-american, and when we talk about threats to our national sovereignty we're almost always talking about America. The generations raised on that would have to pass on before union would be politically palatable.
But I could see an American dissolution really pouring kerosene on the fire of our various regional independence movements and trigger a lot of rethinking of our constitution and what confederation means. It would be the most interesting thing to happen in Canadian politics since the Meech Lake accord!
posted by selenized at 7:18 AM on June 4, 2020
I surprised myself by being open to this idea. I've toyed with the idea of moving to Canada, but the logistics of that are somewhat daunting. Being part of a small group of former states appeals to me, although I can see my part of NY state separating from the more liberal downstate.
posted by tommasz at 7:27 AM on June 4, 2020
posted by tommasz at 7:27 AM on June 4, 2020
I think there's an inevitable turning point where cutting federal taxes (rich, middle class, poor, corporate, whatever) will be desirable by blue states. I'd love to see a quid pro quo on the part of states like NY and CA where they match federal tax cuts with state tax increases. How long will rich blue states want to fund the misgovernance of red states? Like German's frustration with Greece, but even more so. Alabama, left to its own devices, would more closely resemble...Kyrgyzstan...or Yemen...than Greece. You hate big government? You hate science, education, rationality? You want to run a Christian oligarchy? Fine. Give us our money back and have at it. I doubt you'd see much Angela Merkel style moral leadership in that process. You think Cuomo or Newsom would volunteer their state's budgets to cover the costs in Mississippi if the debate was framed that way? Let Texas be the Saudi Arabia of the new coalition of flyover states.
You can preemptively decry the fall of the republic, but American international aggression would inevitably be greatly curtailed. Labor (and the oppressed) would follow the work (and rights) to wherever they end up (the coasts). We aren't working together on big, great collective projects anymore, anyway. SpaceX is doing the space flights. We've abrogated most effort to private industry already.
posted by karst at 8:11 AM on June 4, 2020 [5 favorites]
You can preemptively decry the fall of the republic, but American international aggression would inevitably be greatly curtailed. Labor (and the oppressed) would follow the work (and rights) to wherever they end up (the coasts). We aren't working together on big, great collective projects anymore, anyway. SpaceX is doing the space flights. We've abrogated most effort to private industry already.
posted by karst at 8:11 AM on June 4, 2020 [5 favorites]
You can preemptively decry the fall of the republic, but American international aggression would inevitably be greatly curtailed.
The downside of that could be central Europe falling into Russia's sphere of influence and east Asia/Oceania falling into China's. The Baltic States (and possibly Finland and Poland) either being absorbed into Russia or hollowed out and turned into client states run along kleptocratic lines, with countries beyond them on notice that, without Uncle Sam to protect them, if they don't want trouble, they will do as Moscow tells them to. Meanwhile, Japan and Australia follow directives from the CCP and crack down on Tibetan/Hong Kong/Uighur/Falun Gong dissidents, even as Australia offsets this with performative Murdochian “anti-Communism” aimed at environmentalists, queers, “cultural Marxists” and “black-armband historians” who bang on about racism.
The complete disappearance of American power on the world stage is more likely to produce a vacuum to be filled by powers that don't even pay lip service to ideals like democracy and liberty.
posted by acb at 8:26 AM on June 4, 2020 [5 favorites]
The downside of that could be central Europe falling into Russia's sphere of influence and east Asia/Oceania falling into China's. The Baltic States (and possibly Finland and Poland) either being absorbed into Russia or hollowed out and turned into client states run along kleptocratic lines, with countries beyond them on notice that, without Uncle Sam to protect them, if they don't want trouble, they will do as Moscow tells them to. Meanwhile, Japan and Australia follow directives from the CCP and crack down on Tibetan/Hong Kong/Uighur/Falun Gong dissidents, even as Australia offsets this with performative Murdochian “anti-Communism” aimed at environmentalists, queers, “cultural Marxists” and “black-armband historians” who bang on about racism.
The complete disappearance of American power on the world stage is more likely to produce a vacuum to be filled by powers that don't even pay lip service to ideals like democracy and liberty.
posted by acb at 8:26 AM on June 4, 2020 [5 favorites]
Who gets the nukes?
posted by delfin at 8:31 AM on June 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by delfin at 8:31 AM on June 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
Not the people you want to get them.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 8:35 AM on June 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Huffy Puffy at 8:35 AM on June 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
I'd imagine Texas would invade someone within the first decade of secession.
The New Republic of Texas would be fighting a civil war long before it managed to invade any neighboring countries.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 8:36 AM on June 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
The New Republic of Texas would be fighting a civil war long before it managed to invade any neighboring countries.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 8:36 AM on June 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
Bits of Canada joining up with US states is about as likely as Texas or California re-uniting with Mexico. There is way too much history, and despite the similarities, too many cultural and political differences. Canadians may like to visit the US, but most of us don't want to actually live there.
posted by fimbulvetr at 8:42 AM on June 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by fimbulvetr at 8:42 AM on June 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
To put it in perspective.... there isn't much outcry in Canada to the US/Canada border being closed right now to non-essential travel.
posted by fimbulvetr at 8:45 AM on June 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 8:45 AM on June 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
Labor (and the oppressed) would follow the work (and rights) to wherever they end up (the coasts).
Uh, the lucky ones will. The 'holy shit, it's actually happening' flight of labor after this breakup/reorg/whatever event, lasting only about six weeks to three months, will rapidly be followed by all kinds of crackdowns, and jailtimes will be worked off by those that are breaking all kinds of new laws, now enacted in Gilead: LGBTQ? Illegal! Socialist? Illegal! Unable to afford housing/food/clothing/whatever? Illegal! Mad about all the above illegaling and willing to say it? Very, Very Illegal!
You'll have a great mass of prisoners that are now, essentially, slave labor.
Within a few years, goaded on by those in surrounding 'states' of this now-broken-US who actually have a conscience (and perhaps have even recreated a form of the underground railroad), these 'states' will engage in a civil war.
Which is, ostensibly, what this was all supposed to avoid.
It's the same answer that's been given in all the in the red state/blue state debate threads that have a 'But why don't they just move?' contingent - we can't flee ourselves, and that's what this is.
We fix it here, we fix it now, or it remains broken.
posted by pseudophile at 8:52 AM on June 4, 2020 [15 favorites]
Uh, the lucky ones will. The 'holy shit, it's actually happening' flight of labor after this breakup/reorg/whatever event, lasting only about six weeks to three months, will rapidly be followed by all kinds of crackdowns, and jailtimes will be worked off by those that are breaking all kinds of new laws, now enacted in Gilead: LGBTQ? Illegal! Socialist? Illegal! Unable to afford housing/food/clothing/whatever? Illegal! Mad about all the above illegaling and willing to say it? Very, Very Illegal!
You'll have a great mass of prisoners that are now, essentially, slave labor.
Within a few years, goaded on by those in surrounding 'states' of this now-broken-US who actually have a conscience (and perhaps have even recreated a form of the underground railroad), these 'states' will engage in a civil war.
Which is, ostensibly, what this was all supposed to avoid.
It's the same answer that's been given in all the in the red state/blue state debate threads that have a 'But why don't they just move?' contingent - we can't flee ourselves, and that's what this is.
We fix it here, we fix it now, or it remains broken.
posted by pseudophile at 8:52 AM on June 4, 2020 [15 favorites]
This was interesting read — thank you, Verg.
Everything I’ve read about a possible breakup of the U.S. seems to me to wildly underestimate casualties in the inevitable war/s during/after the breakup. That’s before you get to some sort of actual theocratic union of parts of the U.S., the fact that so many of the states are purple, etc.
What pseudophile said (on preview), but also: millions of dead.
posted by cupcakeninja at 8:56 AM on June 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
Everything I’ve read about a possible breakup of the U.S. seems to me to wildly underestimate casualties in the inevitable war/s during/after the breakup. That’s before you get to some sort of actual theocratic union of parts of the U.S., the fact that so many of the states are purple, etc.
What pseudophile said (on preview), but also: millions of dead.
posted by cupcakeninja at 8:56 AM on June 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
The author's point seems ... muddled at best.
I mean, it opens with:
It doesn't get better from there. It's a lot of very vague statements about how things are, and then very sure statements about what it all means. It also seems like it wants to posit a kind of master plan or ongoing continuity of "American-Ness" that is convenient for making an argument, but inconvenient when considering the reality on the ground.
Not super inclined to take this seriously. If anyone is fantasizing, it feels like it's the author.
posted by tocts at 8:56 AM on June 4, 2020 [18 favorites]
I mean, it opens with:
It’s time to face facts, America: We’re a backward, dysfunctional, angry, anti-intellectual mess. Not just Trump, cable news, or Twitter but the whole freakin’ culture. While our cities burn in America’s latest “race” riots, the COVID-19 death toll continues to rise.Why the scare-quotes around "race"? What is the implication of the "while X, other thing Y is happening" construction being employed? What is even trying to be said here?
It doesn't get better from there. It's a lot of very vague statements about how things are, and then very sure statements about what it all means. It also seems like it wants to posit a kind of master plan or ongoing continuity of "American-Ness" that is convenient for making an argument, but inconvenient when considering the reality on the ground.
Not super inclined to take this seriously. If anyone is fantasizing, it feels like it's the author.
posted by tocts at 8:56 AM on June 4, 2020 [18 favorites]
> with countries beyond them on notice that, without Uncle Sam to protect them, if they don't want trouble, they will do as Moscow tells them to
Yes, "protection" does have a meaning that is appropriate here. Meanwhile Coca-COla is the most popular drink everywhere in the world because it is just objectively the best one, we all agree.
posted by Space Coyote at 8:58 AM on June 4, 2020
Yes, "protection" does have a meaning that is appropriate here. Meanwhile Coca-COla is the most popular drink everywhere in the world because it is just objectively the best one, we all agree.
posted by Space Coyote at 8:58 AM on June 4, 2020
Utah, Idaho, Montana, and Arizona—all at once—will follow the next day.This person doesn't know Montana very well at all. Far more likely is we do our best to maintain our own fuctionality through all the chaos, eventually going along with whatever our fellow western states do.
posted by traveler_ at 9:13 AM on June 4, 2020
Hmmm. I think it's awfully easy to sit in your academic office and spin intellectual sounding yarns that have little practical congruence with reality. Seems like it would end up like The Hunger Games? With maybe Chinese and Russian money and projects flooding into the red states? Interstate highways flooded with refugees like the old newsreels of the partition of India...?
posted by anguspodgorny at 9:39 AM on June 4, 2020
posted by anguspodgorny at 9:39 AM on June 4, 2020
I think you have to view any sort of breakup of the US and realignment as a process that is going to be a possibly-only-slightly-more-secular version of the partition of India. There is no choice but to figure this out peacefully somehow.
posted by feloniousmonk at 9:55 AM on June 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by feloniousmonk at 9:55 AM on June 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
What pseudophile said (on preview), but also: millions of dead.
External displacement will also be inevitable. Will Canada (and to a lesser degree Mexico) be prepared for millions of refugees from such strife? That will be the most significant impact to neighbouring states in my view.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 9:58 AM on June 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
External displacement will also be inevitable. Will Canada (and to a lesser degree Mexico) be prepared for millions of refugees from such strife? That will be the most significant impact to neighbouring states in my view.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 9:58 AM on June 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
Welcome to the Dakotan Empire. (Those who have the nukes will make the rules.)
posted by monotreme at 10:01 AM on June 4, 2020
posted by monotreme at 10:01 AM on June 4, 2020
Trying to refer to a unitary American character is an exercise in futility. The anti-government sentiment, the little digs at the DMV? That doesn't really play here in MA. We're actually a lot closer to European than some of the other places in the US. We fund our government. We mostly don't try to tear it apart. Our DMV (actually RMV here) functions quite well, for the most part.
Yes, Boston is still really racist. Yes, we still have the same dysfunctional cops. We're hardly perfect.
But Massachusetts is an example of what can flourish when government and education aren't completely undermined in the US, and that's why Republicans hate us so.
posted by explosion at 11:08 AM on June 4, 2020
Yes, Boston is still really racist. Yes, we still have the same dysfunctional cops. We're hardly perfect.
But Massachusetts is an example of what can flourish when government and education aren't completely undermined in the US, and that's why Republicans hate us so.
posted by explosion at 11:08 AM on June 4, 2020
One thing we've learned in the EU in the last few years is that our states are equally suspectable to population and vote splitting tactics designed to foment hatred, envy and division. See Brexit.
I don't know if the EU is a model for a future US mostly because they are already not all that different anyway, as has been mentioned by others up thread. One advantage we have, in my opinion, is a more democratic multi-party parliamentary system.
posted by romanb at 11:17 AM on June 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
I don't know if the EU is a model for a future US mostly because they are already not all that different anyway, as has been mentioned by others up thread. One advantage we have, in my opinion, is a more democratic multi-party parliamentary system.
posted by romanb at 11:17 AM on June 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
I stopped reading right here:
the inconceivable lameness of the Democratic establishment
This is a casual ableist slur, and IMO is a pretty good leading indicator of intellectual laziness and crap rhetoric.
posted by scrump at 11:36 AM on June 4, 2020 [5 favorites]
the inconceivable lameness of the Democratic establishment
This is a casual ableist slur, and IMO is a pretty good leading indicator of intellectual laziness and crap rhetoric.
posted by scrump at 11:36 AM on June 4, 2020 [5 favorites]
Welcome to the Dakotan Empire. (Those who have the nukes will make the rules.)
Land-based missiles are only one third of the US nuclear forces. It'd be a weird standoff if it came to that.
posted by Juffo-Wup at 2:51 PM on June 4, 2020
This is a country with more firearms than people. The American story is in its third act. In accordance with Chekhov’s famous dictum, at some point in time—sooner rather than later—those guns will fire.
It's a nice sounding sentence but Chekhov was writing with respect to fiction: If you introduce a gun in your story you damn well better make sure it fires at some point otherwise why introduce it? Real life has no such rules. It isn't an inevitability that those guns will fire and you really shouldn't be fatalistic about something like that and the bloodshed that would follow.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 3:01 PM on June 4, 2020 [6 favorites]
It's a nice sounding sentence but Chekhov was writing with respect to fiction: If you introduce a gun in your story you damn well better make sure it fires at some point otherwise why introduce it? Real life has no such rules. It isn't an inevitability that those guns will fire and you really shouldn't be fatalistic about something like that and the bloodshed that would follow.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 3:01 PM on June 4, 2020 [6 favorites]
That doesn't really play here in MA. We're actually a lot closer to European than some of the other places in the US. We fund our government.
Isn't that actually something he's saying? I agree it's not very well-argued, though, since he then keeps going back to, uh, the one universal value of Americans being their opposition to universalism.
posted by atoxyl at 3:39 PM on June 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
Isn't that actually something he's saying? I agree it's not very well-argued, though, since he then keeps going back to, uh, the one universal value of Americans being their opposition to universalism.
posted by atoxyl at 3:39 PM on June 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
Arizona will be lucky to get any water at all
posted by sjswitzer at 3:46 PM on June 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by sjswitzer at 3:46 PM on June 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
Welcome to the Dakotan Empire. (Those who have the nukes will make the rules.)
Those who have control of the nukes make the rules. Unless either of the state governors have launch codes, they'd still be trying to hitch a tractor to a silo cap when a single airburst over Fargo would settle their hash.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:39 PM on June 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
Those who have control of the nukes make the rules. Unless either of the state governors have launch codes, they'd still be trying to hitch a tractor to a silo cap when a single airburst over Fargo would settle their hash.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:39 PM on June 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
ENTER LAUNCH CODE
posted by Huffy Puffy at 7:11 PM on June 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
1 2 3 4 5LAUNCH CODE ACCEPTED
posted by Huffy Puffy at 7:11 PM on June 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
Oh, come on. They haven't done that since, like, 1987.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:19 PM on June 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:19 PM on June 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
Still got to find the right 8 inch floppy.
Rewriting one with the appropriate data to hit the intended target might be problematic, unless Dakota turns out to have a beef with Putin or one of the former Soviet republics, other former Eastern Bloc countries, or China.
posted by wierdo at 9:22 PM on June 4, 2020
Rewriting one with the appropriate data to hit the intended target might be problematic, unless Dakota turns out to have a beef with Putin or one of the former Soviet republics, other former Eastern Bloc countries, or China.
posted by wierdo at 9:22 PM on June 4, 2020
I could be mistaken but I thought a rogue submarine crew could launch a missile in theory (but it would be a group effort?) I don't know if they are able to retarget those, though.
I guess a good old fashioned bomb might be the easiest to deploy without authorization. I have no idea how that process is supposed to work, those aren't really the stars of the arsenal anymore.
posted by atoxyl at 11:08 PM on June 4, 2020
I guess a good old fashioned bomb might be the easiest to deploy without authorization. I have no idea how that process is supposed to work, those aren't really the stars of the arsenal anymore.
posted by atoxyl at 11:08 PM on June 4, 2020
I keep having this conversation in my head and with others and what really flags this article as poorly reasoned to me is the casual and arrogant certainty he puts into his assumptions. Whatever happens next will be complicated. Presuming that America will fracture along existing borders or demographics shows a lack of respect for the chaotic nature of history, and for the complexity of our landscape economically, culturally, and racially. Someone mentioned Arizonan water above, and they’re absolutely right; an Arizona or Nevada without a federal government enforcing water from Colorado is probably not going to survive. Certainly Phoenix and Las Vegas won’t, at least. Looking at water rights around the nation, water supply will be a huge problem, not to mention downstream pollution. Imagine the scores of treaties that would have to be formed along the Mississippi, the Colorado, the Ohio, the Delaware, just to name a few. If you look at federal laws and interstate law in commerce and infrastructure as a rough guide to what it takes to coordinate what we have now, the treaty process will be mind boggling. And food will certainly play a part; where is California’s Central Valley without irrigation? Where is the rest of America without Californian and Midwest foods as domestic products? If states have to start feeding themselves I think you’ll run into population caps pretty quickly.
The real sticking point for me, though, is justice. “Alabama will be Yemen” seems pretty accurate. And trust me, as a northern progressive Jew I would be real happy to stop having my tax dollars laundered into white Christian theocratic oppression in the south. But Alabama is not entirely populated by white theocratic Christians. There are many many other people who live there, including many many people of color. If the rest of the country washes their hands of Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi... how long until more black blood begins to flow? How long until the purges start? How long until the camps? When faced with the choice of moving on without the burden of the south and allowing slavery to continue and worsen, we chose to go to war before, as a free state cannot border one of oppression without being complicit. That work was dismantled almost immediately; think of how much worse it could be. How do we wash our hands of the millions of deaths that an American dissolution would bring?
The answer cannot be more war. Each time we close a border , each time we raise a hand in violence, each time we brandish a weapon, we keep getting lost in this labyrinth of conflict. There are real casualties of this perpetual anger and violence and competition.
I think we have so ingrained the idea of competition being the only answer to scarcity that we have accepted it as a natural fact. And scarcity is scary. Scarcity is pain and struggle and starvation. Scarcity leads to jealousy and anger and hatred as we look to protect our things and take things from others. It twists our minds into absurd arguments; we hoard our resources and positions in hierarchies to absurd degrees. How else can we understand billionaires except as hoarders? Look at the George Floyd protesters, and the white men carrying assault rifles into legislatures, and Donald Trump’s anger and fragility, and Jeff Bezos’ billions, and a thousand other behaviors. To me they all are all acting from trauma; the traumas of being black in America, the traumas of being told that others are constantly out to take what’s yours, the traumas of fighting and clawing your way to the top of the hierarchy only to find that it’s never, ever enough to make you feel safe and satisfied. And we keep swinging at each other, adding always to the running tally of grudges and retribution and things we must protect.
To be clear, we have a moral obligation to prevent those in power and those in hate from hurting others, just as we cannot say to a schoolyard bully that their abusive home life permits them to spread their pain to others. The tools we have now limit our capability to protect others without conflict; George Floyd protesters are absolutely justified in their use of confrontation to address those who do not acknowledge any other language. Before we can focus on therapy for white supremacy, we must restrain and redirect the supremacists so more lives are not lost. But it can’t be us vowing to eliminate them, because that is their tool and their mindset, and it is corrosive to mental health no matter whether you start your journey to authoritarianism from the left or the right.
But what has the coronavirus crisis shown us more than that our capacity in cooperation is so much greater than our capacity in competition? We see miracles emerge where we work together for change, and we see death tolls rise when we declare competition as the answer, like in having states bid against each other for ventilators and PPE.
Perhaps in the past competition was a law of survival. Perhaps we really did have to let others suffer and die so that we could live. But we have come so far, our technology and law and organizational and operational capabilities have advanced so much. Surely we can better face scarcity together than apart. If we understand how our traumas shape and motivate us, and understand that collective interest is self interest... things could actually change. To remain forever locked in this status of social hierarchy and oppression is madness.
The future of America cannot be expected to be one of liberal utopian islands in a sea of oppression, because those logistics simply don’t work. It would be so easy to keep breaking down into smaller and smaller states and city states, but we would leave behind our capacity for modern medicine, agriculture, climate control... so much would be lost. A world that cannot come together; well, we’ve seen the past and it’s an ugly place to live. A future which uses and advances the best of what we have achieved must be one in which we are more united, not less. We’ve reached Peak Competition and have encountered a cap on what we can achieve through capitalism, colonialism, hierarchy, and oppression. I think we owe it to the future to explore different options.
posted by skookumsaurus rex at 6:49 AM on June 5, 2020 [7 favorites]
The real sticking point for me, though, is justice. “Alabama will be Yemen” seems pretty accurate. And trust me, as a northern progressive Jew I would be real happy to stop having my tax dollars laundered into white Christian theocratic oppression in the south. But Alabama is not entirely populated by white theocratic Christians. There are many many other people who live there, including many many people of color. If the rest of the country washes their hands of Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi... how long until more black blood begins to flow? How long until the purges start? How long until the camps? When faced with the choice of moving on without the burden of the south and allowing slavery to continue and worsen, we chose to go to war before, as a free state cannot border one of oppression without being complicit. That work was dismantled almost immediately; think of how much worse it could be. How do we wash our hands of the millions of deaths that an American dissolution would bring?
The answer cannot be more war. Each time we close a border , each time we raise a hand in violence, each time we brandish a weapon, we keep getting lost in this labyrinth of conflict. There are real casualties of this perpetual anger and violence and competition.
I think we have so ingrained the idea of competition being the only answer to scarcity that we have accepted it as a natural fact. And scarcity is scary. Scarcity is pain and struggle and starvation. Scarcity leads to jealousy and anger and hatred as we look to protect our things and take things from others. It twists our minds into absurd arguments; we hoard our resources and positions in hierarchies to absurd degrees. How else can we understand billionaires except as hoarders? Look at the George Floyd protesters, and the white men carrying assault rifles into legislatures, and Donald Trump’s anger and fragility, and Jeff Bezos’ billions, and a thousand other behaviors. To me they all are all acting from trauma; the traumas of being black in America, the traumas of being told that others are constantly out to take what’s yours, the traumas of fighting and clawing your way to the top of the hierarchy only to find that it’s never, ever enough to make you feel safe and satisfied. And we keep swinging at each other, adding always to the running tally of grudges and retribution and things we must protect.
To be clear, we have a moral obligation to prevent those in power and those in hate from hurting others, just as we cannot say to a schoolyard bully that their abusive home life permits them to spread their pain to others. The tools we have now limit our capability to protect others without conflict; George Floyd protesters are absolutely justified in their use of confrontation to address those who do not acknowledge any other language. Before we can focus on therapy for white supremacy, we must restrain and redirect the supremacists so more lives are not lost. But it can’t be us vowing to eliminate them, because that is their tool and their mindset, and it is corrosive to mental health no matter whether you start your journey to authoritarianism from the left or the right.
But what has the coronavirus crisis shown us more than that our capacity in cooperation is so much greater than our capacity in competition? We see miracles emerge where we work together for change, and we see death tolls rise when we declare competition as the answer, like in having states bid against each other for ventilators and PPE.
Perhaps in the past competition was a law of survival. Perhaps we really did have to let others suffer and die so that we could live. But we have come so far, our technology and law and organizational and operational capabilities have advanced so much. Surely we can better face scarcity together than apart. If we understand how our traumas shape and motivate us, and understand that collective interest is self interest... things could actually change. To remain forever locked in this status of social hierarchy and oppression is madness.
The future of America cannot be expected to be one of liberal utopian islands in a sea of oppression, because those logistics simply don’t work. It would be so easy to keep breaking down into smaller and smaller states and city states, but we would leave behind our capacity for modern medicine, agriculture, climate control... so much would be lost. A world that cannot come together; well, we’ve seen the past and it’s an ugly place to live. A future which uses and advances the best of what we have achieved must be one in which we are more united, not less. We’ve reached Peak Competition and have encountered a cap on what we can achieve through capitalism, colonialism, hierarchy, and oppression. I think we owe it to the future to explore different options.
posted by skookumsaurus rex at 6:49 AM on June 5, 2020 [7 favorites]
I found this article very blaming and rather too much finger pointing and name-calling with little to redeem itself in HOW what is related would actually be achieved. Full of hyperbole and lacking in true substance of any merit. I rate it 2 out of 10...
posted by IndelibleUnderpants at 7:31 AM on June 5, 2020
posted by IndelibleUnderpants at 7:31 AM on June 5, 2020
The problem with this is the assumption that ALL people in NY or California are one way politically and are orthogonal to people from Alabama and Mississippi. I think this author has been staring at the Red/Blue state map of the Presidential election too long. Even that map, if you do it county by county, shows a lot more pixellation.
How does this gentleman believe the resorting would occur? India Pakistan style mass movement of people? This is nonsense on stilts. Reminds me of the periodic separation from Cook County arguments by downstate idjits here in Illinois.
But the fundamental problem highlighted by this thesis does exist. You cannot have so much devolved to the states that we have fundamentally different life experiences (judicially at least) depending on the state you happen to live in. I mean, the whole abortion should be a state issue decided by local sentiment is one clear example. California right now is dragging other states into its legislative orbit ( at least with environmental issues), whether they like it or not. When California puts in a rule for the production of Eggs, for example, that can be sold in the state; the other states are dragged along simply by default as pretty much ALL major Egg producers are going to toe the line, right? I am sure the other states are not very happy with that.
posted by indianbadger1 at 11:10 AM on June 5, 2020 [4 favorites]
How does this gentleman believe the resorting would occur? India Pakistan style mass movement of people? This is nonsense on stilts. Reminds me of the periodic separation from Cook County arguments by downstate idjits here in Illinois.
But the fundamental problem highlighted by this thesis does exist. You cannot have so much devolved to the states that we have fundamentally different life experiences (judicially at least) depending on the state you happen to live in. I mean, the whole abortion should be a state issue decided by local sentiment is one clear example. California right now is dragging other states into its legislative orbit ( at least with environmental issues), whether they like it or not. When California puts in a rule for the production of Eggs, for example, that can be sold in the state; the other states are dragged along simply by default as pretty much ALL major Egg producers are going to toe the line, right? I am sure the other states are not very happy with that.
posted by indianbadger1 at 11:10 AM on June 5, 2020 [4 favorites]
I couldn't get through the upper middle class white dude clueless ignorance of the actual, effective, national-scale organizing efforts that are currently ongoing (BLM, Fight for $15 and resurgence of labor activism among low wage workers eg. in the fast food industry, among others) and achieving real outcomes to the paragraphs where he may have had an actual point or something.
posted by eviemath at 4:35 PM on June 6, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 4:35 PM on June 6, 2020 [2 favorites]
We’ve reached Peak Competition
Hell of a thing to say after the US clobbered most of the world to impose its dog-eat-dog ethos. Maybe you think competition is over. For me, as the human product of brutal colonialism, parachuted into in a society that only recently woke up to the fact that <slurs> have actual agency, it's only just beginning. Of course I will compete.
posted by dmh at 7:15 AM on June 9, 2020
Hell of a thing to say after the US clobbered most of the world to impose its dog-eat-dog ethos. Maybe you think competition is over. For me, as the human product of brutal colonialism, parachuted into in a society that only recently woke up to the fact that <slurs> have actual agency, it's only just beginning. Of course I will compete.
posted by dmh at 7:15 AM on June 9, 2020
Meanwhile, here in Georgia, the minority Republican Party in power worked really hard yesterday to disenfranchise the majority of Georgians, while this article describes us as just people with different "social policies".
posted by hydropsyche at 4:51 AM on June 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by hydropsyche at 4:51 AM on June 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
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But if the dissolution of the nation means the end of ICE and concentration camps for children, I'm totally willing to listen.
posted by spamandkimchi at 10:28 PM on June 3, 2020 [34 favorites]