do not talk to cops
June 9, 2020 5:00 PM Subscribe
Confessions of a Former Bastard Cop [Content Warning: Discussion of violence, abuse, killing].
I know what you’re thinking, “What? We need the police! They protect us!” As someone who did it for nearly a decade, [...] understand that by and large, police protection is marginal, incidental. It’s an illusion created by decades of copaganda designed to fool you into thinking these brave men and women are holding back the barbarians at the gates.Via.
I have a weird sense of deja vu about the cans story, anyone else? Did the author maybe write about it in a Twitter thread a while ago or something?
posted by tobascodagama at 5:37 PM on June 9, 2020
posted by tobascodagama at 5:37 PM on June 9, 2020
The oft linked Don't Talk To The Police lecture.
posted by j_curiouser at 5:51 PM on June 9, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by j_curiouser at 5:51 PM on June 9, 2020 [9 favorites]
I'm completely swayed by this essay, except for the final part about constructing a USA where a group of armed people are simple unnecessary.
I think it's possible. But given the level of systemic change required, I don't think it's plausible, at least for a few generations. However, I could 100% see turning police into some more like firefighters: a small group of well-trained, well-drilled people who hang around, then are called out when something requiring a gun is actually occurring.
Everything else? Social workers, municipal street therapists, and other professionals who do the jobs we force police to juggle.
For the first few decades, maybe police are their "backup" until it's clear that's not required.
posted by ®@ at 5:51 PM on June 9, 2020 [46 favorites]
I think it's possible. But given the level of systemic change required, I don't think it's plausible, at least for a few generations. However, I could 100% see turning police into some more like firefighters: a small group of well-trained, well-drilled people who hang around, then are called out when something requiring a gun is actually occurring.
Everything else? Social workers, municipal street therapists, and other professionals who do the jobs we force police to juggle.
For the first few decades, maybe police are their "backup" until it's clear that's not required.
posted by ®@ at 5:51 PM on June 9, 2020 [46 favorites]
Huh. I was taught "The Cops Are Not Your Friends" and "Don't Talk To The Police", probably like when I was maybe 10 or 11, in the late 70s.... I'm glad to see it's still around.
posted by hippybear at 6:16 PM on June 9, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 6:16 PM on June 9, 2020 [8 favorites]
I was also strongly swayed by this article and shared it on FB and subsequently was unfriended by sometime who accused anyone who agreed with me that we have "blood on our hands" for the damage we're doing to the police and society. The irony burns. As suggested in the comments in the Medium article, I hope the author can get in touch with a trustworthy journalist who can vet their identity as a former cop. This would make it easier for those who find the article compelling but are hesitant to share it because the author is completely anonymous.
posted by WaylandSmith at 6:19 PM on June 9, 2020 [24 favorites]
posted by WaylandSmith at 6:19 PM on June 9, 2020 [24 favorites]
Living in San Francisco, this was the first town I ever lived in where I was a victim of a crime, four times. Car break in. Then later my car was totaled while parked in the street. Hit and run. Then I was nearly totaled. Hit and run by a drunk. Then my apartment got robbed. None of these cases would have been prevented by the cops. The drunk had a long record of drunk driving. His license was suspended. But he was still driving around. Afterwards they didn’t even confiscate his car. When bench warrants were issued on the guy, the cops wouldn’t arrest him. All this talk about defunding the police got me thinking. What about crime prevention? Looking at my past, what about crime prevention? The police only seem to be around after the fact. Both the robberies are probably social problems. The car hit and run was a teenager who sold drugs in the neighborhood. Another social problem. The drunk driver was clearly a medical and social problem who never got treated. I think this city has failed in dealing with its social problems. But the cops are not the answer. They are more of the problem. In every case, the cops on the street I dealt with were really not interested. The cop who was interested was the hit and run inspector, who spent most of his time at a desk. I can see a place for investigation, crime scene analysis, etc. But cops with guns, cruising around in cars, or cops with guns herding protestors around in the street. No thanks.
posted by njohnson23 at 6:29 PM on June 9, 2020 [74 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 6:29 PM on June 9, 2020 [74 favorites]
I was taught "The Cops Are Not Your Friends" and "Don't Talk To The Police", probably like when I was maybe 10 or 11, in the late 70s.... I'm glad to see it's still around.
I agree, but I'm also sorry there's a need for it to be still around.
posted by Greg_Ace at 6:36 PM on June 9, 2020 [5 favorites]
I agree, but I'm also sorry there's a need for it to be still around.
posted by Greg_Ace at 6:36 PM on June 9, 2020 [5 favorites]
I found this article very compelling. Contrary to what broadcast tv would have us believe, cops rarely are involved in stopping crimes as they are happening. A complete re imagining of how to keep communities SAFE is needed. Hopefully folks are now realizing the current model of policing does not do any of the things that keep us safe, it is mostly just perpetuating violence against the poorest, most damaged among us. One major problem that will have to be solved alongside de-fanging police departments is outlawing conceal carry and getting people to give up their handguns and shotguns and long guns and assault rifles, etc. etc. That is going to be the hardest part.
In other news -- COPS has been cancelled! The long-running Cops premiered on Fox in 1989 and aired for 25 seasons. The show was resurrected in 2013 when Spike TV ordered new episodes. Spike TV rebranded as Paramount Network in 2018, with the docuseries carried over to the new network. Cops, whose 33rd season was slated to premiere yesterday, has been off the air since June 1 when it was pulled with no plans to run any additional episodes.
posted by pjsky at 6:41 PM on June 9, 2020 [31 favorites]
In other news -- COPS has been cancelled! The long-running Cops premiered on Fox in 1989 and aired for 25 seasons. The show was resurrected in 2013 when Spike TV ordered new episodes. Spike TV rebranded as Paramount Network in 2018, with the docuseries carried over to the new network. Cops, whose 33rd season was slated to premiere yesterday, has been off the air since June 1 when it was pulled with no plans to run any additional episodes.
posted by pjsky at 6:41 PM on June 9, 2020 [31 favorites]
I'm also sorry there's a need for it to be still around.
It seems there is actually serious conversation about moving toward something better, finally, at last. Let's not derail into that, please, but it is a very welcome development, and honestly a bit surprising at how it went from 0 to 60 as a conversation.
posted by hippybear at 6:42 PM on June 9, 2020 [7 favorites]
It seems there is actually serious conversation about moving toward something better, finally, at last. Let's not derail into that, please, but it is a very welcome development, and honestly a bit surprising at how it went from 0 to 60 as a conversation.
posted by hippybear at 6:42 PM on June 9, 2020 [7 favorites]
Can't help wondering how much the ways police are portrayed in movies & TV is a factor.
posted by gottabefunky at 6:47 PM on June 9, 2020 [11 favorites]
posted by gottabefunky at 6:47 PM on June 9, 2020 [11 favorites]
then are called out when something requiring a gun is actually occurring.
How often do you think that is likely to be?
posted by PMdixon at 6:52 PM on June 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
How often do you think that is likely to be?
posted by PMdixon at 6:52 PM on June 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
So. I have read and watched some powerful stuff recently, and I have been trying to pick one to send my boss. This might be the one. (This is not particularly daring on my part, I won't be fearing for my job or anything.)
posted by Glinn at 7:05 PM on June 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Glinn at 7:05 PM on June 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
How often do you think that is likely to be?
So currently there is this huge unaccountable group known as cops, who are effectively above the law and are white supremacists.
When they are out of jobs, they are going to be angry. There is not going to be a force to "police" them and they are used to being able to violently put people down.
Worse, most of them own personal weapons. I mean, they're white supremacists and right wing nutjobs and all.
Meaning it could happen a great deal initially, and would be the very same people currently causing the current riot: cops.
When they lose their jobs, mark my words, this isn't over, and them and the people who support them are heavily armed and regular citizens and the new citizen policing organizations will potentially not be well armed enough to deal with them.
Unless the new President is willing to label them terrorists and enemies of the state and mobilize the military against them... well, I mean, I just don't know how long the violence will last but it will be a long time.
This isn't over by a long shot, these people will not go silent into that good night. Which is fucking horrifying. All I want is for them to go silently into that good night. They will not relinquish their power without a long, bloody fight.
I mean, this article is all about how lawless they are. You don't think they're going to just steal all the weapons and body armor and ammo from each precinct and take them home and act like they have no idea what happened to them all? Who is going to march in and arrest them and enforce it?
I mean, there's actually a whole shitload of these dudes, even though there's more of us. We were already having regular incidents of white supremacist terrorism long before any of this.
Does anyone think that is going to stop because we disbanded the police? If anything, they'll use it as opportunity.
I say this as someone who is 100% on the side of police abolition. But yeah, I think this guy is right that a specialized force of some kind might still be necessary to contain psychotic assholes with high powered weaponry and a history of being lawless pricks.
posted by deadaluspark at 7:17 PM on June 9, 2020 [68 favorites]
So currently there is this huge unaccountable group known as cops, who are effectively above the law and are white supremacists.
When they are out of jobs, they are going to be angry. There is not going to be a force to "police" them and they are used to being able to violently put people down.
Worse, most of them own personal weapons. I mean, they're white supremacists and right wing nutjobs and all.
Meaning it could happen a great deal initially, and would be the very same people currently causing the current riot: cops.
When they lose their jobs, mark my words, this isn't over, and them and the people who support them are heavily armed and regular citizens and the new citizen policing organizations will potentially not be well armed enough to deal with them.
Unless the new President is willing to label them terrorists and enemies of the state and mobilize the military against them... well, I mean, I just don't know how long the violence will last but it will be a long time.
This isn't over by a long shot, these people will not go silent into that good night. Which is fucking horrifying. All I want is for them to go silently into that good night. They will not relinquish their power without a long, bloody fight.
I mean, this article is all about how lawless they are. You don't think they're going to just steal all the weapons and body armor and ammo from each precinct and take them home and act like they have no idea what happened to them all? Who is going to march in and arrest them and enforce it?
I mean, there's actually a whole shitload of these dudes, even though there's more of us. We were already having regular incidents of white supremacist terrorism long before any of this.
Does anyone think that is going to stop because we disbanded the police? If anything, they'll use it as opportunity.
I say this as someone who is 100% on the side of police abolition. But yeah, I think this guy is right that a specialized force of some kind might still be necessary to contain psychotic assholes with high powered weaponry and a history of being lawless pricks.
posted by deadaluspark at 7:17 PM on June 9, 2020 [68 favorites]
this fulfills all my worst expectations about cops so perfectly I'm afraid that it is fake
posted by bq at 7:17 PM on June 9, 2020 [60 favorites]
posted by bq at 7:17 PM on June 9, 2020 [60 favorites]
It's true that cops are rarely effective at stopping or preventing crimes, but that doesn't matter to a lot of people in the US who see cops as a tool for inflicting punishment, either directly or through their role in the judicial system. Usually both.
So it's not a big deal to them if the cops can't prevent a crime as long as they're able to hurt somebody. These are usually the same people who don't see prison as punishment so much as a place to receive punishment. Yes, the cruelty really is the point.
posted by theory at 7:27 PM on June 9, 2020 [24 favorites]
So it's not a big deal to them if the cops can't prevent a crime as long as they're able to hurt somebody. These are usually the same people who don't see prison as punishment so much as a place to receive punishment. Yes, the cruelty really is the point.
posted by theory at 7:27 PM on June 9, 2020 [24 favorites]
Yes, the cruelty really is the point.
This quote never stops being relevant to this:
“I voted for him, and he’s the one who’s doing this,” Minton told Mazzei. “I thought he was going to do good things. He’s not hurting the people he needs to be hurting.”
Emphasis mine.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:21 PM on June 9, 2020 [53 favorites]
This quote never stops being relevant to this:
“I voted for him, and he’s the one who’s doing this,” Minton told Mazzei. “I thought he was going to do good things. He’s not hurting the people he needs to be hurting.”
Emphasis mine.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:21 PM on June 9, 2020 [53 favorites]
How often do you think that is likely to be?
Another way to put that is: how often does adding an excitable person with a firearm to a situation improve that situation?
posted by mhoye at 8:27 PM on June 9, 2020 [23 favorites]
Another way to put that is: how often does adding an excitable person with a firearm to a situation improve that situation?
posted by mhoye at 8:27 PM on June 9, 2020 [23 favorites]
I hope the author can get in touch with a trustworthy journalist who can vet their identity as a former cop.
I think the same people who might be skeptical that the author is a former cop might have definite ideas about what constitutes a “trustworthy journalist.”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:50 PM on June 9, 2020 [8 favorites]
I think the same people who might be skeptical that the author is a former cop might have definite ideas about what constitutes a “trustworthy journalist.”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:50 PM on June 9, 2020 [8 favorites]
Seeing every broken tail light as a potential psychopathological killer is a HUGE problem, and the training culture described in the essay, that promotes that world view, just makes the whole system sound like a do-over.
There are some psychopaths out there. Some of them vent on their spouses, and some of them are in the police force (where they're potentially findable at the moment, if we could only make sure they were only focused on other psychopaths). We very much need to make sure we have some way of handling those cases, but clearly this system isn't it.
I do seriously worry about having tens of thousands of unemployed "bad cops" at large in the US -- some psychopaths to be sure, but these largely seem to be badly educated people (maybe all the way to early childhood) in a bad system. They are used to following a self-regulated chain of command, and there are apparently over 600,000 of them. Plus -- we have, as taxpayers / members of society, paid for their education! Most of which (from this one account, maybe not representative of all situations) sounds horrible - but I wonder if there are some aspects that can be leveraged? Like, if that strong desire many have to "protect" people could be re-aimed to ways to really protect and help people.
posted by amtho at 9:34 PM on June 9, 2020 [7 favorites]
There are some psychopaths out there. Some of them vent on their spouses, and some of them are in the police force (where they're potentially findable at the moment, if we could only make sure they were only focused on other psychopaths). We very much need to make sure we have some way of handling those cases, but clearly this system isn't it.
I do seriously worry about having tens of thousands of unemployed "bad cops" at large in the US -- some psychopaths to be sure, but these largely seem to be badly educated people (maybe all the way to early childhood) in a bad system. They are used to following a self-regulated chain of command, and there are apparently over 600,000 of them. Plus -- we have, as taxpayers / members of society, paid for their education! Most of which (from this one account, maybe not representative of all situations) sounds horrible - but I wonder if there are some aspects that can be leveraged? Like, if that strong desire many have to "protect" people could be re-aimed to ways to really protect and help people.
posted by amtho at 9:34 PM on June 9, 2020 [7 favorites]
If the writer of this article was at any point ever in their lives a cop, I will eat my hat. I mean, I don't actually own a hat, but if this is proven to be a cop, I will purchase a hat for the express purpose of eating it.
You literally can't even become a cop in many jurisdictions if your IQ is above average. Cops cannot write this articulately, or come up with ideas like "straight from the pig's mouth". Just no.
You also won't be hired unless you evince the twin qualities of servile obedience to authority, and eagerness to punch down. Someone that had it within them to understand concepts like "centering" or "structures that perpetuate injustice" would never be hired as a cop. If a cop candidate had some spark of feeling for those less privileged than they, and they managed to somehow get through the gatekeepers, that spark would be extinguished after a fewmonths weeks days on the job.
posted by nirblegee at 9:41 PM on June 9, 2020 [5 favorites]
You literally can't even become a cop in many jurisdictions if your IQ is above average. Cops cannot write this articulately, or come up with ideas like "straight from the pig's mouth". Just no.
You also won't be hired unless you evince the twin qualities of servile obedience to authority, and eagerness to punch down. Someone that had it within them to understand concepts like "centering" or "structures that perpetuate injustice" would never be hired as a cop. If a cop candidate had some spark of feeling for those less privileged than they, and they managed to somehow get through the gatekeepers, that spark would be extinguished after a few
posted by nirblegee at 9:41 PM on June 9, 2020 [5 favorites]
Cops cannot write this articulately
A police officer used to write articles in the New Yorker. Not every single individual conforms to one's stereotypes.
posted by thelonius at 10:26 PM on June 9, 2020 [87 favorites]
A police officer used to write articles in the New Yorker. Not every single individual conforms to one's stereotypes.
posted by thelonius at 10:26 PM on June 9, 2020 [87 favorites]
The points about what to do about policing are too exactly the talking points I've been hearing all over, so that makes me suspicious. I agree with everything also other than the kumbaya part, but this pings my radar hard as well meaning but not actually by a cop. Another giveaway is the repeated riffing of Do Not Talk To Cops which comes across as copycatting that original video.
posted by blue shadows at 10:35 PM on June 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by blue shadows at 10:35 PM on June 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
Yeah, I dunno, I really hope this is genuine but honestly it seems to fit external criticisms of the police a little too exactly and it sets off alarm bells for me. Not because a cop couldn't write that, that's nonsense, of course there are intelligent people who are cops, and honestly it's not that brilliantly written anyway. Nor, of course, do I disagree with the intended messaging of the essay. But there's a lot of criticisms of the practice of policing written non-anonymously by current and former police, and this doesn't really seem to hit the same points that those people tend to hit.
I really, really hope the author of this piece actually is a former a cop, because the conversation we're now having nationally about the role of the police is too important for the well to get poisoned by someone getting caught playing games, no matter how well-intentioned they might have been. None of the ideas or critiques in this essay are unique, and for them to get tainted in the public discussion by being associated with one person who falsely put them into the mouth of a former cop would be terrible.
posted by biogeo at 10:52 PM on June 9, 2020 [12 favorites]
I really, really hope the author of this piece actually is a former a cop, because the conversation we're now having nationally about the role of the police is too important for the well to get poisoned by someone getting caught playing games, no matter how well-intentioned they might have been. None of the ideas or critiques in this essay are unique, and for them to get tainted in the public discussion by being associated with one person who falsely put them into the mouth of a former cop would be terrible.
posted by biogeo at 10:52 PM on June 9, 2020 [12 favorites]
I have a weird sense of deja vu about the cans story, anyone else? Did the author maybe write about it in a Twitter thread a while ago or something?
I was curious so I did a quick search. Seems this is usually called "recycling theft" (I know, what?) and it's pretty common, so it's entirely plausible that multiple people have written about this. For example, the San Jose Police Department has a page on their website about "reporting recycling theft", where they helpfully note
Or if you want to lose your faith in humanity even further, here's a few people in Alameda, CA who are absolutely outraged that the police haven't done something about an "elderly asian woman" "stealing" their recycling, despite them lodging complaints every week for ten months. The rot in our society that tells people it's right and proper to deploy officers equipped with lethal force for the most minor civil "infractions" spreads far beyond just the police. Frankly I think the busybody calling the cops every week about this should be fined for wasting public resources.
Anyway, all this to say that it's entirely plausible that a cop or someone else could have had a similar story on Twitter or elsewhere about an elderly immigrant getting arrested for stealing cans -- a Google search for "recycling theft elderly woman" shows that this is depressingly common. And now I have to find some way to manage to fall asleep tonight.
posted by biogeo at 11:32 PM on June 9, 2020 [16 favorites]
I was curious so I did a quick search. Seems this is usually called "recycling theft" (I know, what?) and it's pretty common, so it's entirely plausible that multiple people have written about this. For example, the San Jose Police Department has a page on their website about "reporting recycling theft", where they helpfully note
Although, you may feel this is a harmless crime, scavenging presents an opportunity for individuals to check out your alley, garage and home. They may want more than your recyclables and could come back later to burglarize your garage or home.Which, yeah, that's fucking gross, SJPD, and certainly helps make the case that American police see everyone primarily as a potential criminal.
Or if you want to lose your faith in humanity even further, here's a few people in Alameda, CA who are absolutely outraged that the police haven't done something about an "elderly asian woman" "stealing" their recycling, despite them lodging complaints every week for ten months. The rot in our society that tells people it's right and proper to deploy officers equipped with lethal force for the most minor civil "infractions" spreads far beyond just the police. Frankly I think the busybody calling the cops every week about this should be fined for wasting public resources.
Anyway, all this to say that it's entirely plausible that a cop or someone else could have had a similar story on Twitter or elsewhere about an elderly immigrant getting arrested for stealing cans -- a Google search for "recycling theft elderly woman" shows that this is depressingly common. And now I have to find some way to manage to fall asleep tonight.
posted by biogeo at 11:32 PM on June 9, 2020 [16 favorites]
You literally can't even become a cop in many jurisdictions if your IQ is above average.
Could you point me to evidence that this is the case? I haven't seen that requirement listed in any recruiting ads, or even seen mention of that anywhere.
posted by tumbling at 12:26 AM on June 10, 2020 [4 favorites]
Could you point me to evidence that this is the case? I haven't seen that requirement listed in any recruiting ads, or even seen mention of that anywhere.
posted by tumbling at 12:26 AM on June 10, 2020 [4 favorites]
FFS, that's a lot of commentary on "recycling theft" aka poor people collecting returnables to try to scrape by.
I also find them annoying, but instead of calling the police or complaining online, I just started separating out my soda cans and leaving them in a bag out front. No more noisy digging through the bins, and life is a tiny bit easier for the people collecting.
posted by ktkt at 12:27 AM on June 10, 2020 [23 favorites]
I also find them annoying, but instead of calling the police or complaining online, I just started separating out my soda cans and leaving them in a bag out front. No more noisy digging through the bins, and life is a tiny bit easier for the people collecting.
posted by ktkt at 12:27 AM on June 10, 2020 [23 favorites]
The US has become a society prioritising punishment - a good review of the approach:
https://thebaffler.com/salvos/locked-up-pfaff
From the article
"Americans do have legitimate concerns about the racial, gender, and class inequalities that permeate our criminal justice system. ... But why is the solution to treat everyone worse?"
So the nitwit who went on a rampage in Norway gets 25 years in prison - the US is killing suspected, accused and convicted killers by the hundreds if not thousands. Yet I still think of Norway is the much safer country.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 1:00 AM on June 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
https://thebaffler.com/salvos/locked-up-pfaff
From the article
"Americans do have legitimate concerns about the racial, gender, and class inequalities that permeate our criminal justice system. ... But why is the solution to treat everyone worse?"
So the nitwit who went on a rampage in Norway gets 25 years in prison - the US is killing suspected, accused and convicted killers by the hundreds if not thousands. Yet I still think of Norway is the much safer country.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 1:00 AM on June 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
>> You literally can't even become a cop in many jurisdictions if your IQ is above average.
> Could you point me to evidence that this is the case? I haven't seen that requirement listed in any recruiting ads, or even seen mention of that anywhere.
"A Federal judge has dismissed a lawsuit by a man who was barred from the New London police force because he scored too high on an intelligence test.
"In a ruling made public on Tuesday, Judge Peter C. Dorsey of the United States District Court in New Haven agreed that the plaintiff, Robert Jordan, was denied an opportunity to interview for a police job because of his high test scores. But he said that that did not mean Mr. Jordan was a victim of discrimination."
Associated Press, METRO NEWS BRIEFS: CONNECTICUT; Judge Rules That Police Can Bar High I.Q. Scores, 9 Sep, 1999
posted by PresidentOfDinosaurs at 1:10 AM on June 10, 2020 [8 favorites]
> Could you point me to evidence that this is the case? I haven't seen that requirement listed in any recruiting ads, or even seen mention of that anywhere.
"A Federal judge has dismissed a lawsuit by a man who was barred from the New London police force because he scored too high on an intelligence test.
"In a ruling made public on Tuesday, Judge Peter C. Dorsey of the United States District Court in New Haven agreed that the plaintiff, Robert Jordan, was denied an opportunity to interview for a police job because of his high test scores. But he said that that did not mean Mr. Jordan was a victim of discrimination."
Associated Press, METRO NEWS BRIEFS: CONNECTICUT; Judge Rules That Police Can Bar High I.Q. Scores, 9 Sep, 1999
posted by PresidentOfDinosaurs at 1:10 AM on June 10, 2020 [8 favorites]
"high test scores" != "above average". He could have scored an IQ of 160 for all we know.
posted by amtho at 2:27 AM on June 10, 2020
posted by amtho at 2:27 AM on June 10, 2020
Cops cannot write this articulately, or come up with ideas like "straight from the pig's mouth". Just no.
Frank Serpico is really articulate, and it’s pretty well documented that he was a cop.
posted by TedW at 3:15 AM on June 10, 2020 [24 favorites]
Frank Serpico is really articulate, and it’s pretty well documented that he was a cop.
posted by TedW at 3:15 AM on June 10, 2020 [24 favorites]
Cops cannot write this articulately, or come up with ideas like "straight from the pig's mouth". Just no.
This is a ridiculous statement. I'm sure there are dozens of former cops who are excellent writers. Ed Burns and Joseph Wambaugh immediately come to mind as two of the greatest writers of cop dramas who are both former cops. Bill Clark is another.
Bruce Robert Coffin's fourth book just came out a few months ago. He was a cop in Portland for more than 30 years.
posted by dobbs at 3:18 AM on June 10, 2020 [19 favorites]
This is a ridiculous statement. I'm sure there are dozens of former cops who are excellent writers. Ed Burns and Joseph Wambaugh immediately come to mind as two of the greatest writers of cop dramas who are both former cops. Bill Clark is another.
Bruce Robert Coffin's fourth book just came out a few months ago. He was a cop in Portland for more than 30 years.
posted by dobbs at 3:18 AM on June 10, 2020 [19 favorites]
There was a New York cop in my former church. I really did not like some of the things he said when OWS was going on, but he was intelligent and articulate.
posted by Foosnark at 4:57 AM on June 10, 2020
posted by Foosnark at 4:57 AM on June 10, 2020
I've been trying to decide whether the claims of "low IQ" and being "inarticulate" are a misguided attempt at irony, trying to wield some of the exact same claims against cops that have been so long used by racists against blacks to assert an unwarranted superiority, or whether it really is such an attempt to distance cops from smart articulate people as might be thought to be found on Metafilter, as if racism wasn't a problem among self-styled smart and articulate white folks and that wasn't far more the problem than cops somehow being of a different category of people all together.
posted by gusottertrout at 4:57 AM on June 10, 2020 [23 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 4:57 AM on June 10, 2020 [23 favorites]
Yeah this sounds crazy. Cops can be many things. The overbearing culture of policedom creates so many chuds but there are many police and ex-police that have a nuanced criticism of of their role and want change. It's not reflected in the most vocal outlets, police associations etc. But it's there. Cops can be an instrument of white supremacy, but often it's in spite of their ideals as a thinking, worrying moral person with a particular job they find hard.
posted by postagepaid at 5:10 AM on June 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by postagepaid at 5:10 AM on June 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
a journalist worked as a prison guard for a year...
Deep Cover: What It Was Like Working as a Prison Guard at Sing Sing in the 1990s - "Ted Conover discusses how little has changed in the 15 years since he infiltrated Sing Sing in order to write a book about the prison system."
The Police Take the Side of White Vigilantes - "The police are not using brutality to enforce 'the law'. They're using the law to enforce something else: a particular social order that is, to them, worth fighting for... they are a political force with specific goals."[1]
See: "that video was filmed in Seattle, where in real life right now every police officer seemingly wants to make themselves the protagonists of the drama depicted above... Every police officer from my hometown that I know has shared that video on Facebook at least once"[2]
re: "constructing a USA where a group of armed people are simple unnecessary."
To know how communities without police forces function, there are plenty of examples out there:
Deep Cover: What It Was Like Working as a Prison Guard at Sing Sing in the 1990s - "Ted Conover discusses how little has changed in the 15 years since he infiltrated Sing Sing in order to write a book about the prison system."
The Police Take the Side of White Vigilantes - "The police are not using brutality to enforce 'the law'. They're using the law to enforce something else: a particular social order that is, to them, worth fighting for... they are a political force with specific goals."[1]
See: "that video was filmed in Seattle, where in real life right now every police officer seemingly wants to make themselves the protagonists of the drama depicted above... Every police officer from my hometown that I know has shared that video on Facebook at least once"[2]
re: "constructing a USA where a group of armed people are simple unnecessary."
To know how communities without police forces function, there are plenty of examples out there:
Indigenous communities continue to practice community safety without the police, such as a community in Whitehorse, Canada.posted by kliuless at 5:19 AM on June 10, 2020 [29 favorites]Indigenous citizens of Chéran, Mexico threw out the police and took community safety into their own hands. There is now little crime, murders, or abductions, otherwise common in this part of Mexico.
- Four officers, no weapons, no charges: A Yukon First Nation’s solution for keeping the peace - "In Whitehorse, colonialism and crime have damaged the people of Kwanlin Dun’s relationships with the RCMP and one another. Now, a pilot project is trying to do policing differently — and Indigenous people around the world are taking notice."
In Rojava, Syria, each neighborhood has its own civil protection volunteers, which have to be 40% women. Conflict is resolved through community mediation.[3]
- The town that threw out police, politicians and gangsters - "In Mexico, organised crime reaches everywhere, even into the smallest village - except for one small town in the state of Michoacan."
- Police abolition and other revolutionary lessons from Rojava - "Democratic confederalism, the ideological framework organizing society in Rojava, outlines the features of a post-revolutionary justice system."
A word of caution about jumping into community policing will be a cure for police violence as there is considerable differences between communities in their make up and the effect that could potentially have on community patrols. One only need remember Trayvon Martin's murder for evidence of that.
In September 2011, the Twin Lakes residents held an organizational meeting to create a neighborhood watch program. (George) Zimmerman was selected by neighbors as the program's coordinator, according to Wendy Dorival, Neighborhood Watch organizer for the Sanford Police Department
posted by gusottertrout at 5:46 AM on June 10, 2020 [12 favorites]
In September 2011, the Twin Lakes residents held an organizational meeting to create a neighborhood watch program. (George) Zimmerman was selected by neighbors as the program's coordinator, according to Wendy Dorival, Neighborhood Watch organizer for the Sanford Police Department
posted by gusottertrout at 5:46 AM on June 10, 2020 [12 favorites]
I've been trying to decide whether the claims of "low IQ" and being "inarticulate" are a misguided attempt at irony, trying to wield some of the exact same claims against cops that have been so long used by racists against blacks to assert an unwarranted superiority, or whether it really is such an attempt to distance cops from smart articulate people as might be thought to be found on Metafilter, as if racism wasn't a problem among self-styled smart and articulate white folks and that wasn't far more the problem than cops somehow being of a different category of people all together.
I think it's pretty simple.
For obvious reasons, some people - especially those in targeted groups - really viscerally hate cops (both the institution as a whole and some individuals they've encountered or know about). They hate cops to the point that they're unwilling to acknowledge the possibility - publicly or to themselves - of any individual cop having a good quality or ever having done something good without a nefarious ulterior motive ('copaganda', etc.).
Other people accept that individual cops can have good qualities or do good things (without that excusing or lessening their bad qualities, bad actions, complicity in the system, etc.), but think that public recognition of individual cops' good qualities or good actions undermines the united and absolute opposition to cops that they see as necessary to achieve radical change. That's partly a recognition of the fact that good qualities / actions of individual cops are often raised specifically in order to deflect criticism and prevent change, and partly because it really is easier (and in some ways more effective) to have a simple message. Naturally that sometimes leads you to be at odds with the more complicated reality. Whether you see that as a problem or not depends on your goals and priorities.
Cops can be an instrument of white supremacy, but often it's in spite of their ideals as a thinking, worrying moral person with a particular job they find hard.
Cops are pretty much without exception instruments of white supremacy. That is in no way incompatible with them being thinking, worrying, averagely moral people doing a job they find hard. That's part of the problem.
posted by inire at 5:47 AM on June 10, 2020 [17 favorites]
I think it's pretty simple.
For obvious reasons, some people - especially those in targeted groups - really viscerally hate cops (both the institution as a whole and some individuals they've encountered or know about). They hate cops to the point that they're unwilling to acknowledge the possibility - publicly or to themselves - of any individual cop having a good quality or ever having done something good without a nefarious ulterior motive ('copaganda', etc.).
Other people accept that individual cops can have good qualities or do good things (without that excusing or lessening their bad qualities, bad actions, complicity in the system, etc.), but think that public recognition of individual cops' good qualities or good actions undermines the united and absolute opposition to cops that they see as necessary to achieve radical change. That's partly a recognition of the fact that good qualities / actions of individual cops are often raised specifically in order to deflect criticism and prevent change, and partly because it really is easier (and in some ways more effective) to have a simple message. Naturally that sometimes leads you to be at odds with the more complicated reality. Whether you see that as a problem or not depends on your goals and priorities.
Cops can be an instrument of white supremacy, but often it's in spite of their ideals as a thinking, worrying moral person with a particular job they find hard.
Cops are pretty much without exception instruments of white supremacy. That is in no way incompatible with them being thinking, worrying, averagely moral people doing a job they find hard. That's part of the problem.
posted by inire at 5:47 AM on June 10, 2020 [17 favorites]
Well, hmmm...
OK, so let me just put it out there that some of you can't see the forest for the goddamned trees. IS the person writing this a cop, is it someone pretending to be a cop? Did you read the fucking words that were written? Who cares if they're a cop or not? Did the words mean anything to you, did they carry any kind of weight? Did they resonate? The words. Strung together. In a fucking narrative. Had meaning. It is immaterial whether this person was ever a police officer. What is material, is their cogent argument against the currently constituted force for law enforcement. Or as more accurately described, keeping the proles in their place.
posted by evilDoug at 6:27 AM on June 10, 2020
OK, so let me just put it out there that some of you can't see the forest for the goddamned trees. IS the person writing this a cop, is it someone pretending to be a cop? Did you read the fucking words that were written? Who cares if they're a cop or not? Did the words mean anything to you, did they carry any kind of weight? Did they resonate? The words. Strung together. In a fucking narrative. Had meaning. It is immaterial whether this person was ever a police officer. What is material, is their cogent argument against the currently constituted force for law enforcement. Or as more accurately described, keeping the proles in their place.
posted by evilDoug at 6:27 AM on June 10, 2020
"Did a cop really write that" is totally material, just like is was material that JT LeRoy wasn't real, or that James Frey was a fraud. When the messenger turns out to be a liar, their message gets discredited. So, yes, everything in the article makes sense and articulately advances the idea that the police, as an institution, are a net negative for society. But it leans heavily on the stated identity of the author to lend weight and credibility to those ideas. Not very much in the article seems like true insider baseball, TBH. It could easily have been written by a L&O staff writer. So verifying the credentials of the author is paramount if the article is going to be shared far and wide with the "SEE, COPS FEEL THE SAME WAY" messaging. Otherwise it is easy to dismiss, and if the author turns out to be a fraud, it will just do more damage than good.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:37 AM on June 10, 2020 [43 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:37 AM on June 10, 2020 [43 favorites]
I agree, it does matter whether the author was actually a cop. I find it very easy to believe they were, since everything they describe completely tracks with the stuff my cop dad and his friends would talk about off duty (I don't think I ever heard the "sheep, sheep dogs, wolves" thing in those exact terms, but the attitude is very familiar). But it would be very, very good to have independent confirmation of the author's claim to be a former cop, and I don't feel comfortable about sharing this widely until we get that confirmation.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:06 AM on June 10, 2020 [11 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 7:06 AM on June 10, 2020 [11 favorites]
Metafilter: does it even matter if it's the truth or not
posted by FirstMateKate at 7:46 AM on June 10, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by FirstMateKate at 7:46 AM on June 10, 2020 [7 favorites]
I mean, we are absolutely in a Post Truth Era.
There is absolutely a possibility that an article whose origins is circumspect can absolutely drive massive social change.
The question is whether or not that's actually a good thing, in the long run.
posted by deadaluspark at 7:58 AM on June 10, 2020 [4 favorites]
There is absolutely a possibility that an article whose origins is circumspect can absolutely drive massive social change.
The question is whether or not that's actually a good thing, in the long run.
posted by deadaluspark at 7:58 AM on June 10, 2020 [4 favorites]
And also, when police departments are trying to edit history by altering Wikipedia entries about police brutality to reflect more positively on them...
The other side (read: cops) is fully embracing the post-truth era and I'm honestly not sure of a good way to fight it other than "fight fire with fire" which just seems like a way to take the whole species down into the gutter.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:03 AM on June 10, 2020
The other side (read: cops) is fully embracing the post-truth era and I'm honestly not sure of a good way to fight it other than "fight fire with fire" which just seems like a way to take the whole species down into the gutter.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:03 AM on June 10, 2020
The question is whether or not that's actually a good thing, in the long run.
It’s not.
posted by ericost at 8:03 AM on June 10, 2020 [13 favorites]
It’s not.
posted by ericost at 8:03 AM on June 10, 2020 [13 favorites]
If you're looking for someone who has said similar things but with a verifiable former-cop identity, look up Michael A. Wood Jr., who did a bunch of interviews in the wake of Freddie Gray's death:
Some of the original tweets via Vice
BBC interview
Young Turks interview (first of at least two)
Joe Rogan interview (first of at least two)
Reddit AMA
I'm sure you'll find lots more (and probably better) with a search; these were the first that came up for me.
posted by clawsoon at 8:05 AM on June 10, 2020 [9 favorites]
Some of the original tweets via Vice
BBC interview
Young Turks interview (first of at least two)
Joe Rogan interview (first of at least two)
Reddit AMA
I'm sure you'll find lots more (and probably better) with a search; these were the first that came up for me.
posted by clawsoon at 8:05 AM on June 10, 2020 [9 favorites]
You literally can't even become a cop in many jurisdictions if your IQ is above average. Cops cannot write this articulately, or come up with ideas like "straight from the pig's mouth". Just no.
This is just flat out false. I have a completely average IQ but my verbal/reading/writing skills are all above 99th percentile. I am getting a PhD and frequently get commendations on my writing. "Average IQ" doesn't mean at all what you think it means and this is, as pointed above, similar to racist and ableist lines of thinking that utilize IQ as a measure of a person's worth or actual practical abilities. So maybe... don't?
ACAB but don't wield the oppressor's weapons while you try and make that point.
posted by brook horse at 8:22 AM on June 10, 2020 [25 favorites]
This is just flat out false. I have a completely average IQ but my verbal/reading/writing skills are all above 99th percentile. I am getting a PhD and frequently get commendations on my writing. "Average IQ" doesn't mean at all what you think it means and this is, as pointed above, similar to racist and ableist lines of thinking that utilize IQ as a measure of a person's worth or actual practical abilities. So maybe... don't?
ACAB but don't wield the oppressor's weapons while you try and make that point.
posted by brook horse at 8:22 AM on June 10, 2020 [25 favorites]
You can Google Adrian Schoolcraft for a look at how police culture deals with officers who try to go against the tide to actually uphold the "protect and serve" ethos that police departments espouse.
Basically, it doesn't matter if there are officers who want to be good cops and do the right thing. The system will turn on them like antibodies on a virus and neutralize or destroy them. A cop who wants to do the right thing is no use to anybody if they can't actually do it.
posted by Naberius at 8:26 AM on June 10, 2020 [15 favorites]
Basically, it doesn't matter if there are officers who want to be good cops and do the right thing. The system will turn on them like antibodies on a virus and neutralize or destroy them. A cop who wants to do the right thing is no use to anybody if they can't actually do it.
posted by Naberius at 8:26 AM on June 10, 2020 [15 favorites]
Someone that had it within them to understand concepts like "centering" or "structures that perpetuate injustice" would never be hired as a cop.
I see Calvinist heresy is still en vogue among the left
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 8:26 AM on June 10, 2020 [11 favorites]
I see Calvinist heresy is still en vogue among the left
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 8:26 AM on June 10, 2020 [11 favorites]
Re: IQ Tests for being a cop
Almost 15 years ago, I applied for a desk job at a police department in Snohomish county.
After the application, I was expected to fill out a "personality evaluation form" that was going to evaluate how I handled situations.
Most of the questions were about how to respond to a potentially dangerous situation (pulling over someone, they put their hands where I can't see them). Think about all the scenarios we hear that are constantly played out for cops as propaganda, making them think they're always about to be attacked, this test was essentially the same thing.
Apparently I answered enough questions to come to the conclusion that I would "ask questions first and shoot later." It obviously put it all in nicer, more psychology and science friendly terms.
But what it comes down to is they absolutely denied me a job, before I even had an interview, because based on this "personality profile" they gave me while applying, that I wasn't bloodthirsty enough (once again, my words, not theirs). I wasn't ready to pull out my gun and assume the worst about a situation, so I was already not what they were looking for. Good luck, we won't call you, they said essentially.
So no, they do NOT reject people for having above average IQ, they reject people for being unwilling to be a violent asshat right out of the gate. If you aren't going into the job assuming everyone is out to kill you, you're already out of the running to be hired.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:29 AM on June 10, 2020 [22 favorites]
Almost 15 years ago, I applied for a desk job at a police department in Snohomish county.
After the application, I was expected to fill out a "personality evaluation form" that was going to evaluate how I handled situations.
Most of the questions were about how to respond to a potentially dangerous situation (pulling over someone, they put their hands where I can't see them). Think about all the scenarios we hear that are constantly played out for cops as propaganda, making them think they're always about to be attacked, this test was essentially the same thing.
Apparently I answered enough questions to come to the conclusion that I would "ask questions first and shoot later." It obviously put it all in nicer, more psychology and science friendly terms.
But what it comes down to is they absolutely denied me a job, before I even had an interview, because based on this "personality profile" they gave me while applying, that I wasn't bloodthirsty enough (once again, my words, not theirs). I wasn't ready to pull out my gun and assume the worst about a situation, so I was already not what they were looking for. Good luck, we won't call you, they said essentially.
So no, they do NOT reject people for having above average IQ, they reject people for being unwilling to be a violent asshat right out of the gate. If you aren't going into the job assuming everyone is out to kill you, you're already out of the running to be hired.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:29 AM on June 10, 2020 [22 favorites]
George Floyd died after officers didn’t step in. These police say they did — and paid a price.
posted by gottabefunky at 8:55 AM on June 10, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by gottabefunky at 8:55 AM on June 10, 2020 [7 favorites]
Purely anecdotal, but the references to specific things in the various California codes seem to check out.
Too close to railroad property, Number of brooms in a tow truck
posted by box at 8:59 AM on June 10, 2020 [2 favorites]
Too close to railroad property, Number of brooms in a tow truck
posted by box at 8:59 AM on June 10, 2020 [2 favorites]
You can Google Adrian Schoolcraft for a look at how police culture deals with officers who try to go against the tide to actually uphold the "protect and serve" ethos that police departments espouse.
Basically, it doesn't matter if there are officers who want to be good cops and do the right thing. The system will turn on them like antibodies on a virus and neutralize or destroy them. A cop who wants to do the right thing is no use to anybody if they can't actually do it.
This came to mind for me as well.
Adrian Schoolcraft and the NYPD, previously and previously.
Looks like the links to the original Village Voice coverage still work. Some of the MeFi comments are...well, something.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:45 AM on June 10, 2020 [5 favorites]
Basically, it doesn't matter if there are officers who want to be good cops and do the right thing. The system will turn on them like antibodies on a virus and neutralize or destroy them. A cop who wants to do the right thing is no use to anybody if they can't actually do it.
This came to mind for me as well.
Adrian Schoolcraft and the NYPD, previously and previously.
Looks like the links to the original Village Voice coverage still work. Some of the MeFi comments are...well, something.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:45 AM on June 10, 2020 [5 favorites]
Someone that had it within them to understand concepts like "centering" or "structures that perpetuate injustice" would never be hired as a cop.
It is completely reasonable to me that someone hired as a cop might have been radicalised by the same things a lot of millennials were radicalised by, and in reading more about what caused their dad's 401k to get wiped out, or whatever, kept reading. After five to ten years they're familiar with a lot of ideas that would have been incompatible with their thinking when they started.
posted by Merus at 9:47 AM on June 10, 2020 [13 favorites]
It is completely reasonable to me that someone hired as a cop might have been radicalised by the same things a lot of millennials were radicalised by, and in reading more about what caused their dad's 401k to get wiped out, or whatever, kept reading. After five to ten years they're familiar with a lot of ideas that would have been incompatible with their thinking when they started.
posted by Merus at 9:47 AM on June 10, 2020 [13 favorites]
If I didn't make it perfectly clear in previous post: Having a high IQ and being a violent asshat are not mutually exclusive things and if anything, having a high IQ allows you to gaslight more effectively and cover up more effectively. I'm 100% sure police departments have a near lock on the intelligent, articulate, ultraviolent employees.
Think Captain Beatty from Farheinheit 451 (I know, "fireman", not cop), but the thing is you DO need someone at the top pushing the ideologies downward into the force for the force to internalize those ideologies, and that person pushing the ideologies has to be smart enough to push back against competing ideologies and win the ideological battle (Beatty being an excellent example of this, he almost manages convinces me he's right while I'm reading the book each time). Otherwise your ideology would fail to take root among your team and your team is effectively less ideologically cohesive, and less likely to work together towards the same goals effectively. (Especially if the lack of ideological unity results in them questioning said goals.)
posted by deadaluspark at 10:23 AM on June 10, 2020 [10 favorites]
Think Captain Beatty from Farheinheit 451 (I know, "fireman", not cop), but the thing is you DO need someone at the top pushing the ideologies downward into the force for the force to internalize those ideologies, and that person pushing the ideologies has to be smart enough to push back against competing ideologies and win the ideological battle (Beatty being an excellent example of this, he almost manages convinces me he's right while I'm reading the book each time). Otherwise your ideology would fail to take root among your team and your team is effectively less ideologically cohesive, and less likely to work together towards the same goals effectively. (Especially if the lack of ideological unity results in them questioning said goals.)
posted by deadaluspark at 10:23 AM on June 10, 2020 [10 favorites]
In 17 years working community college recruitment and admissions, I rarely met prospective Police Science students I wanted wearing a badge.
They tended to a radiate law-and-order militarism that was somehow joined to a thrill-seeking vibe. Like, when the shit goes down I am THERE FOR IT.
One visit made the hair on my neck stand up. A prof told a prospective student, "it's a boring day when you don't get to shoot someone." The kid was taken aback, actually. His mom was visibly shaken.
It was a couple days after Michael Brown was murdered.
posted by Caxton1476 at 11:06 AM on June 10, 2020 [11 favorites]
They tended to a radiate law-and-order militarism that was somehow joined to a thrill-seeking vibe. Like, when the shit goes down I am THERE FOR IT.
One visit made the hair on my neck stand up. A prof told a prospective student, "it's a boring day when you don't get to shoot someone." The kid was taken aback, actually. His mom was visibly shaken.
It was a couple days after Michael Brown was murdered.
posted by Caxton1476 at 11:06 AM on June 10, 2020 [11 favorites]
Caxton1476: They tended to a radiate law-and-order militarism that was somehow joined to a thrill-seeking vibe. Like, when the shit goes down I am THERE FOR IT.
That comes out strongly in the Michael A. Wood Jr. interview with Joe Rogan linked above. (I know that Joe Rogan is ehn, but he does have a way of getting people to talk.) Wood was, like, "It was fucking fun! I lived for the car chase!"
posted by clawsoon at 11:18 AM on June 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
That comes out strongly in the Michael A. Wood Jr. interview with Joe Rogan linked above. (I know that Joe Rogan is ehn, but he does have a way of getting people to talk.) Wood was, like, "It was fucking fun! I lived for the car chase!"
posted by clawsoon at 11:18 AM on June 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
Also, this ideological bullshit isn't just fucking cops. Let's not ignore how many judges are on this fucking pain train, too.
When I was arrested for pot, before it was legal in my state, the judge that sentenced me read me the fucking riot act, was practically screaming, acting like I'd fucking killed a baby in front of him or some shit. It was disgusting and still is disgusting.
Anyway, yeah, I'm officially sick of piece of shit judges being left out of this conversation, because they're fucking enablers of this horseshit. When the violent and dehumanizing ideology flows downhill, it's not just from captains of precincts and heads of the police union. It's also the fucking courts.
Tell me judges aren't well educated or don't have high IQs. They know exactly what they're doing.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:57 AM on June 10, 2020 [33 favorites]
When I was arrested for pot, before it was legal in my state, the judge that sentenced me read me the fucking riot act, was practically screaming, acting like I'd fucking killed a baby in front of him or some shit. It was disgusting and still is disgusting.
Anyway, yeah, I'm officially sick of piece of shit judges being left out of this conversation, because they're fucking enablers of this horseshit. When the violent and dehumanizing ideology flows downhill, it's not just from captains of precincts and heads of the police union. It's also the fucking courts.
Tell me judges aren't well educated or don't have high IQs. They know exactly what they're doing.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:57 AM on June 10, 2020 [33 favorites]
I want to post this so, so badly, but I'm worried about being ostracized for it in my small hometown. If the author's bio checks out, I'm going to have a real quandary on my hands.
posted by sensate at 12:09 PM on June 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by sensate at 12:09 PM on June 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
I can believe all of: some districts have IQ ceilings for police hires; some police officers have very high IQs and/or writing ability; some police officers can see big problems in the workplace culture they’re embedded into; some writers are liars.
The thing that most raises my eyebrows here is the fact that this piece is on medium.com. Nothing written here is implausible to me on its face, but since all we have is this writer’s word for it, I think the essay would work better if it were published by a site that did any kind of due diligence.
posted by eirias at 12:38 PM on June 10, 2020 [5 favorites]
The thing that most raises my eyebrows here is the fact that this piece is on medium.com. Nothing written here is implausible to me on its face, but since all we have is this writer’s word for it, I think the essay would work better if it were published by a site that did any kind of due diligence.
posted by eirias at 12:38 PM on June 10, 2020 [5 favorites]
Tell me judges aren't well educated or don't have high IQs. They know exactly what they're doing.
See also: DAs and the whole extended umbrella of federal law enforcement/intelligence/etc.
posted by thivaia at 1:01 PM on June 10, 2020 [4 favorites]
See also: DAs and the whole extended umbrella of federal law enforcement/intelligence/etc.
posted by thivaia at 1:01 PM on June 10, 2020 [4 favorites]
The Killology guy referenced in the article is real and he seems to be the source of that wolf/sheepdog/sheep metaphor. John Oliver talked about him on this week's show, and as you can imagine, Oliver doesn't care much for him.
posted by TedW at 2:20 PM on June 10, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by TedW at 2:20 PM on June 10, 2020 [2 favorites]
Killology guy was a former professor of psychology at West Point.
posted by clawsoon at 2:23 PM on June 10, 2020
posted by clawsoon at 2:23 PM on June 10, 2020
Killology guy was a former professor of psychology at West Point.
It's bad enough he was an officer in the army, but horrifying that they thought highly enough of him to have him train what are supposed to be the best and the brightest minds in the army.
posted by TedW at 2:27 PM on June 10, 2020
It's bad enough he was an officer in the army, but horrifying that they thought highly enough of him to have him train what are supposed to be the best and the brightest minds in the army.
posted by TedW at 2:27 PM on June 10, 2020
Although I have to admit, at least soldiers are expected to kill people in the routine course of their job.
posted by TedW at 2:33 PM on June 10, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by TedW at 2:33 PM on June 10, 2020 [3 favorites]
All the sheepdog talk is funny and ironic considering they all say they 'fear for their lives' as the reason they have to act so violently during heightened encounters with the public. Teachers and workers at the customer service returns desk (for example) have to handle those same encounters without guns or chokeholds.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:42 PM on June 10, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:42 PM on June 10, 2020 [8 favorites]
Although I have to admit, at least soldiers are expected to kill people in the routine course of their job.
More from the Michael A. Wood Jr. interviews - he said that in his experience cops with military experience were less likely to use lethal force because they were calmer about killing and dying. Instead of a fear-driven immediate response, they'd be more likely to pause and give more time to evaluating the situation.
And since the legal threshold for deadly force is "officer feared for their life", there's no legal pressure to change cop training around fear.
posted by clawsoon at 2:42 PM on June 10, 2020 [10 favorites]
More from the Michael A. Wood Jr. interviews - he said that in his experience cops with military experience were less likely to use lethal force because they were calmer about killing and dying. Instead of a fear-driven immediate response, they'd be more likely to pause and give more time to evaluating the situation.
And since the legal threshold for deadly force is "officer feared for their life", there's no legal pressure to change cop training around fear.
posted by clawsoon at 2:42 PM on June 10, 2020 [10 favorites]
Unless I missed it, no one seems to have suggested that the reason this is well-written and polished by today's standard of the Internet personal essay* is that the cop is working with a ghostwriter and/or journalist. It reminded me of Cracked articles, back in the day when I actually read Cracked. And even without help, it's not like it's that hard of a style to master; cops aren't orcs. (To my knowledge.)
Although it reads as convincing to me for a lot of the reasons above, I can't say whether I believe it is real. Fabricators often add a lot of convincing details and openly contradict received wisdom to add authenticity to their work. My worry is that this is an ambitious writer who has created a composite character from one or two informants.
-----
* This seems like a snarky thing to say, but it really isn't. It's a good genre, but it definitely has its style.
posted by Countess Elena at 2:52 PM on June 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
Although it reads as convincing to me for a lot of the reasons above, I can't say whether I believe it is real. Fabricators often add a lot of convincing details and openly contradict received wisdom to add authenticity to their work. My worry is that this is an ambitious writer who has created a composite character from one or two informants.
-----
* This seems like a snarky thing to say, but it really isn't. It's a good genre, but it definitely has its style.
posted by Countess Elena at 2:52 PM on June 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
I just started separating out my soda cans and leaving them in a bag out front
I buy big blue IKEA bags by the dozen and do this too. Since I started, I haven't heard anyone rummaging through the bins for cans - my back door leads out of my bedroom and this is something I would usually hear. There's a houseless guy in my neighborhood who I see around a lot and he always asks me when I'm going to leave more cans out. And anytime I see someone on the street with a blue IKEA bag I get to wonder if it was one of mine.
The criminalization of picking through the recycling is ridiculous. I hate it when bins and dumpsters have locks on them.
posted by bendy at 3:03 PM on June 10, 2020 [17 favorites]
I buy big blue IKEA bags by the dozen and do this too. Since I started, I haven't heard anyone rummaging through the bins for cans - my back door leads out of my bedroom and this is something I would usually hear. There's a houseless guy in my neighborhood who I see around a lot and he always asks me when I'm going to leave more cans out. And anytime I see someone on the street with a blue IKEA bag I get to wonder if it was one of mine.
The criminalization of picking through the recycling is ridiculous. I hate it when bins and dumpsters have locks on them.
posted by bendy at 3:03 PM on June 10, 2020 [17 favorites]
More from the Michael A. Wood Jr. interviews - he said that in his experience cops with military experience were less likely to use lethal force...
I seem to remember seeing a study that made much the same point. It doesn't surprise me; military training is much longer and more rigorous than police training.
posted by TedW at 3:17 PM on June 10, 2020
I seem to remember seeing a study that made much the same point. It doesn't surprise me; military training is much longer and more rigorous than police training.
posted by TedW at 3:17 PM on June 10, 2020
A ghost written composite actually makes a lot of sense.
posted by blue shadows at 6:02 PM on June 10, 2020
posted by blue shadows at 6:02 PM on June 10, 2020
cops aren't orcs. (To my knowledge.)
yo dawg
posted by thelonius at 7:07 PM on June 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
yo dawg
posted by thelonius at 7:07 PM on June 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
I read Killology Guy's essay on sheep and sheepdogs and wolves, and it was full of the kind of anecdotes that I associate with with the missionary-story trope from sermons:
posted by clawsoon at 10:56 PM on June 10, 2020 [8 favorites]
“You think you’re tough, or somethin’?” the other asked, obviously offended that this one was not shirking away from them.In this case, a miracle from God in the midst of the heathens is replaced by a miracle from Toughness in the midst of the urban jungle. So I was not surprised to see that Killology Guy has also written "Bulletproof Marriage: A 90-Day Devotional":
“As a matter of fact, I am tough,” the officer said, calmly and with a steady gaze.
The two looked at him for a long moment, and then without saying a word, turned and moved back down the aisle...
Bulletproof Marriage is a 90-day devotional that applies biblical principles to support and strengthen the marriages of military members, law enforcement officers, and first responders. Each day includes a Bible verse, an inspirational reading, quick tips, action steps for both husband and wife, and a prayer."Honey, I think our marriage could really be strengthened by this guy who says he's an expert in killology."
posted by clawsoon at 10:56 PM on June 10, 2020 [8 favorites]
I can't get past the fact that police forces sent their officers to learn "Killology". KILLOLOGY IT'S IN THE FUCKING NAME WHY WOULD YOU SEND POLICE TO LEARN THAT?!
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 11:28 PM on June 10, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 11:28 PM on June 10, 2020 [8 favorites]
Might as well rename it to reflect reality: "Murder, Death, Kill", training.
God, I feel like I'm just constantly ugly crying inside.
posted by sharp pointy objects at 12:27 AM on June 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
God, I feel like I'm just constantly ugly crying inside.
posted by sharp pointy objects at 12:27 AM on June 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
Part of human psychological bias is to doubt information that doesn't match up with what they already believe. It's called confirmation bias.
Yes this cop is anonymous. But I mean it's not like it's just one cop that says there are deep institutional problems with policing.
Why I Hated Being a Cop
What it's like to be a Black Police Officer
I used to be a JoCo cop. I support the police, and I understand Black Lives Matter
I’m a cop. I won’t fight a ‘war’ on crime the way I fought the war on terror.
I was a cop – but I still don't know how to survive a police stop
But that's all anecdotal. Here's an anonymous survey of cops done for the USDOJ that says that 84% of those surveyed has seen colleagues use excessive force.
Here's anonymous video where two cops talk about policing in Miami Gardens, Florida.
And hey, if you want to accuse me of being biased, I got the last two links from this article on americanconservative.com Seven Reasons Police Brutality Is Systemic, Not Anecdotal
posted by gryftir at 1:56 AM on June 11, 2020 [14 favorites]
Yes this cop is anonymous. But I mean it's not like it's just one cop that says there are deep institutional problems with policing.
Why I Hated Being a Cop
What it's like to be a Black Police Officer
I used to be a JoCo cop. I support the police, and I understand Black Lives Matter
I’m a cop. I won’t fight a ‘war’ on crime the way I fought the war on terror.
I was a cop – but I still don't know how to survive a police stop
But that's all anecdotal. Here's an anonymous survey of cops done for the USDOJ that says that 84% of those surveyed has seen colleagues use excessive force.
Here's anonymous video where two cops talk about policing in Miami Gardens, Florida.
And hey, if you want to accuse me of being biased, I got the last two links from this article on americanconservative.com Seven Reasons Police Brutality Is Systemic, Not Anecdotal
posted by gryftir at 1:56 AM on June 11, 2020 [14 favorites]
There’s so much about this conversation that doesn’t make sense. Policing is local. Police hiring is local. It’s absolutely possible that different police departments hire differently, both in a policy level and on a one off level (nepotism, political pressure, different positions, etc).
posted by Salamandrous at 5:19 AM on June 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Salamandrous at 5:19 AM on June 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
Part of human psychological bias is to doubt information that doesn't match up with what they already believe. It's called confirmation bias.
Yes this cop is anonymous. But I mean it's not like it's just one cop that says there are deep institutional problems with policing.
"this speaker is making factual claims about large scale phenomena that are generally attested to as correct" != "this speaker is who they say they are and is speaking for the reasons they say they are"
posted by PMdixon at 5:55 AM on June 11, 2020 [4 favorites]
Yes this cop is anonymous. But I mean it's not like it's just one cop that says there are deep institutional problems with policing.
"this speaker is making factual claims about large scale phenomena that are generally attested to as correct" != "this speaker is who they say they are and is speaking for the reasons they say they are"
posted by PMdixon at 5:55 AM on June 11, 2020 [4 favorites]
Exactly. "Fake personal essay" is a well-established genre, and every time one gets passed around it hurts the credibility of the cause it's supposed to serve. Nobody in this thread is questioning the veracity of the content of this essay, we're just pointing out that it has negative propagandistic value if it turns out to be a hoax.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:34 AM on June 11, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 6:34 AM on June 11, 2020 [8 favorites]
Thanks for that list of links, gryftir. I am much more willing to share all of those links with confirmed names than the anonymous essay that was originally posted, for the reason that tobascodagama gives.
posted by clawsoon at 6:59 AM on June 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 6:59 AM on June 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
My younger cousin is a cop. He's intelligent and articulate enough to write a piece like this. Also, he comes from a family of origin which includes trans and gay siblings, as well as in-laws of color, and I'm quite sure he's aware of social justice issues. So to me, the argument that the piece is too well-written and woke to truly be by a cop doesn't hold water. Perhaps the author had an editor, but so what? As a writer and editor myself, I am my family's unofficial go-to person when they want to send a letter to a newspaper or write a lengthy social media post. It's entirely plausible to me that this is genuine, especially if you read through the comments, which are 90% supportive.
posted by Beethoven's Sith at 7:19 AM on June 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Beethoven's Sith at 7:19 AM on June 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
A comment on the article, about the Sheep/Sheepdog/Wolf metaphor, that's interesting:
There’s an idea in transactional psychology called the Karpman drama triangle: three people stuck in a dysfunctional cycle of Victim, Villain, and Protector. This cycle is disempowering to all three, but even more importantly, people within the triangle can switch roles when the circumstances benefit them. Suddenly, the Villain can turn Victim when they’re criticized, or the Protector turns Villain when they gain enough power. There are a few different frameworks for escaping the drama triangle, and they all share an emphasis on mutual respect, autonomy, and seeing each other as human beings (rather than mere characters in our personal narratives).posted by clawsoon at 7:27 AM on June 11, 2020 [4 favorites]
The article does not reek of authenticity, but it does sound very true. There's a lot of great links here, thanks.
posted by theora55 at 10:15 AM on June 11, 2020
posted by theora55 at 10:15 AM on June 11, 2020
Wow. That Sheep/sheepdog/wolf post is something else.
It is almost worthy of it's own FPP to be shredded for just the piece of garbage it is.
It's a remarkable bunch of bullshit.
you are a sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero’s path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.
Universal human phobia, eh? Do tell me what that is.
But, let's be clear on one point: a noun used over and over and over and over in a way that is very hard to see objectively as being neutral:
This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.
I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin’s egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers,
Fuck him and fuck every word he says. It's obvious why he chose a blue egg for his broken analogy within an already a shitty analogy.
Oh. And for the couple of years we raised sheep, our sheep dog blended right in with the flock. We cut her dreadlocks each summer and she became the most timid creature imaginable.
Almost as if you would strip a cop from his gear.....
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 10:23 AM on June 11, 2020 [4 favorites]
It is almost worthy of it's own FPP to be shredded for just the piece of garbage it is.
It's a remarkable bunch of bullshit.
you are a sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero’s path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.
Universal human phobia, eh? Do tell me what that is.
But, let's be clear on one point: a noun used over and over and over and over in a way that is very hard to see objectively as being neutral:
This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.
I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin’s egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers,
Fuck him and fuck every word he says. It's obvious why he chose a blue egg for his broken analogy within an already a shitty analogy.
Oh. And for the couple of years we raised sheep, our sheep dog blended right in with the flock. We cut her dreadlocks each summer and she became the most timid creature imaginable.
Almost as if you would strip a cop from his gear.....
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 10:23 AM on June 11, 2020 [4 favorites]
And now think about the fact that many officers think that the sheep/wolves/sheepdog post is the most true and meaningful thing they've ever read.
posted by clawsoon at 11:11 AM on June 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 11:11 AM on June 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
And now think about the fact that many officers think that the sheep/wolves/sheepdog post is the most true and meaningful thing they've ever read.
It's prominent in the military too - I think that American Sniper movie with Chris Kyle might have directly quoted it.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:15 AM on June 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
It's prominent in the military too - I think that American Sniper movie with Chris Kyle might have directly quoted it.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:15 AM on June 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
If you're looking for an angry extended takedown of sheep/wolves/sheepdogs, here's one from a former cop:
I’m a Former Cop. This is Not Just a Few Bad Apples.
posted by clawsoon at 11:21 AM on June 11, 2020 [7 favorites]
I’m a Former Cop. This is Not Just a Few Bad Apples.
posted by clawsoon at 11:21 AM on June 11, 2020 [7 favorites]
Here's a less irritatingly formatted version of I’m a Former Cop. This is Not Just a Few Bad Apples.
posted by clawsoon at 11:47 AM on June 11, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 11:47 AM on June 11, 2020 [4 favorites]
Thank you for that article clawsoon. Flagged as fantastic.
It is interesting to hear it from the horse's mouth, as it were.
Silent parts out loud (for both Church and State) out loud, indeed.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 12:24 PM on June 11, 2020
It is interesting to hear it from the horse's mouth, as it were.
Silent parts out loud (for both Church and State) out loud, indeed.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 12:24 PM on June 11, 2020
You can already imagine the smears they'll use against the author. "He's not cut out for police work." "He's just angry because his wife left him." "Not someone fellow officers could trust in a life-or-death situation." Etc. It's so predictable.
posted by clawsoon at 12:36 PM on June 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by clawsoon at 12:36 PM on June 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
And, to not abuse edit and also make my subtext text from my first comment, this is pretty close to what our sheepdog looked like. So, yeah, sheepdogs can be pretty damn white. Kinda like cops.
I'll step away for a while.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 12:40 PM on June 11, 2020
I'll step away for a while.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 12:40 PM on June 11, 2020
We've got sheepdogs with eyesight problems. They keep mistaking black sheep for wolves.
posted by clawsoon at 7:45 PM on June 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 7:45 PM on June 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
Here is another piece from a former cop. Seems pretty intelligent to me... Isaiah McKinnon: It's time to restructure police departments so they truly serve and protect
posted by Salamandrous at 8:32 AM on June 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by Salamandrous at 8:32 AM on June 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
The I’m a cop. I won’t fight a ‘war’ on crime the way I fought the war on terror. story that gryftir posted above is one of the most hopeful sets of ideas I've seen for reform of policing. It's about policing as helping your neighbour instead of policing as a war.
Here is an archive.is link for anyone who doesn't have Washington Post access.
posted by clawsoon at 6:00 PM on June 14, 2020 [1 favorite]
Here is an archive.is link for anyone who doesn't have Washington Post access.
posted by clawsoon at 6:00 PM on June 14, 2020 [1 favorite]
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posted by Iris Gambol at 5:34 PM on June 9, 2020 [7 favorites]