‘Everyone misplaces ____ keys’
July 1, 2020 6:25 AM Subscribe
He, She, One, They, Ho, Hus, Hum, Ita. Amia Srinivasan reviews What's Your Pronoun? Beyond He and She by Dennis Baron at the LRB.
Having read this, a heads-up for trans people, this is an article about a trans issue by a (seemingly) cis writer, about a book by a (seemingly) cis writer, in case you don't have the energy for that today.
posted by ITheCosmos at 6:53 AM on July 1, 2020 [16 favorites]
posted by ITheCosmos at 6:53 AM on July 1, 2020 [16 favorites]
This is a good review, thank you for posting. I hope Dr. Srinivasan will drop "preferred" when asking people for their pronouns. I have read a few reviews of Baron's book by now and all of them have been written by cis people; it would have been a good gesture if the various literary publications had assigned the work to trans (especially nonbinary) people.
posted by wicked_sassy at 6:54 AM on July 1, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by wicked_sassy at 6:54 AM on July 1, 2020 [3 favorites]
Well then, that somewhat explains why I don't understand the issue they are trying to describe. Thanks for the context.
Editing to add: As soon as I hit post I realised I described the author as "they". I honestly just do this out of reflex! I wonder how common that is...
posted by like_neon at 6:56 AM on July 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
Editing to add: As soon as I hit post I realised I described the author as "they". I honestly just do this out of reflex! I wonder how common that is...
posted by like_neon at 6:56 AM on July 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
People have been using the singular they/their for a long time in English, so that shouldn't be such a difficult lift.
I am seeing more and more "my pronouns are X, Y, and Z" in work email signatures these days, which seems like a nice way to normalize that this is something people can specify and should be respected.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:07 AM on July 1, 2020 [3 favorites]
I am seeing more and more "my pronouns are X, Y, and Z" in work email signatures these days, which seems like a nice way to normalize that this is something people can specify and should be respected.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:07 AM on July 1, 2020 [3 favorites]
To touch on like_neon's point: there's a slightly disconnect in a "gender neutral" pronoun (that is, a pronoun you use when a person's gender is unspecified/unknown-- "Someone left their rain jacket") and a "non-binary" pronoun (that is, a pronoun used by a non-binary person--e.g., "Sam left their rain jacket").
I've got a copy of the book, which I started on, and Baron does talk about this quite at bit at the beginning, where he attempts to come up for a good cover term for these groups of pronouns, and it's also touched on at the end of the review, but it does sort of feel swept aside.
The thing is, there's actually a lot of interesting linguistics going on now about how the two "theys" relate to each other (and if they do at all, and if there are actually multiple "they"s here), and it has some cool/interesting applications for how syntax works, particularly relating to the idea of "coreference" (the general process of matching pronouns with their antecedents--that is, the person or thing that the pronoun refers to).
To boost some non-binary linguists working on this, there's Lauren Ackerman and Kirby Conrod; Evan Bradley (not non-binary, as far as I know), has also done some work with Max Schmid (who is non-binary) on this as well.
posted by damayanti at 7:08 AM on July 1, 2020 [8 favorites]
I've got a copy of the book, which I started on, and Baron does talk about this quite at bit at the beginning, where he attempts to come up for a good cover term for these groups of pronouns, and it's also touched on at the end of the review, but it does sort of feel swept aside.
The thing is, there's actually a lot of interesting linguistics going on now about how the two "theys" relate to each other (and if they do at all, and if there are actually multiple "they"s here), and it has some cool/interesting applications for how syntax works, particularly relating to the idea of "coreference" (the general process of matching pronouns with their antecedents--that is, the person or thing that the pronoun refers to).
To boost some non-binary linguists working on this, there's Lauren Ackerman and Kirby Conrod; Evan Bradley (not non-binary, as far as I know), has also done some work with Max Schmid (who is non-binary) on this as well.
posted by damayanti at 7:08 AM on July 1, 2020 [8 favorites]
I'm not sure I understand the complaints about the article, the author does go back to 'they' as a valid and even preferable alternative by the end, while exploring and ultimately dismissing objections over its use.
Baron’s choice for the missing word is the singular ‘they’, which is also the most popular pronoun among non-binary and genderqueer people: in the 2017 survey, 80 per cent of respondents said they wanted to be referred to as ‘they’.[...]
But in the case of the third person pronoun, all else is not equal: the purposes, both grammatical and political, to which the singular ‘they’ can be put surely outweigh the cost. Such a trade-off would hardly be unprecedented.posted by simmering octagon at 7:12 AM on July 1, 2020
Surprised to see no mention of Japanese which didn't even have third person pronouns until recently. I think "she" was introduced in the 19th century. Turns out you don't really need them. The subject is just assumed to be the last person mentioned.
There's verbs to indicate the direction in which things happen so 'ageru' means to give but it is from you (the speaker) to another person or to someone more removed. 'kureru' is giving from the outside group to the inside group. So if you are talking about a friend you can just say 'hon o kureta' which means he/she gave a book (hon) to me.
posted by vacapinta at 7:22 AM on July 1, 2020
There's verbs to indicate the direction in which things happen so 'ageru' means to give but it is from you (the speaker) to another person or to someone more removed. 'kureru' is giving from the outside group to the inside group. So if you are talking about a friend you can just say 'hon o kureta' which means he/she gave a book (hon) to me.
posted by vacapinta at 7:22 AM on July 1, 2020
Someone called Molly Dolan wrote to the Ballyshannon Herald in 1843 that ‘“IT” is the onely propper pronoun to be applied to an unknown correspondent – the name being neither fish, flesh, nor fowl.’
I'd like to know more about the rural Irish woman who had opinions on grammar that she shared with her local newspaper in the 1840s.
I am fine with they; it creates grammatical problems, but no more so than English does in the main. When I was a theater kid, I tried to make Shakespeare's a happen again, which received the reception it deserved.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:42 AM on July 1, 2020 [3 favorites]
I'd like to know more about the rural Irish woman who had opinions on grammar that she shared with her local newspaper in the 1840s.
I am fine with they; it creates grammatical problems, but no more so than English does in the main. When I was a theater kid, I tried to make Shakespeare's a happen again, which received the reception it deserved.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:42 AM on July 1, 2020 [3 favorites]
The one thing my tenure as a technical writer has taught me, and that I try to impress upon the people I work with:
There is no such thing as correct or incorrect language. There is communicating and confusing language.
My corollary to that when speaking outside of work is:
Don't waste any time trying to communicate with people who aren't really confused.
"Hey, someone left their keys here."
"Whaaaaaat? You're using a singular object and a plural pronoun! I am confused by this! I cannot understand what you are trying to communicate!"
"Hey, I'm gonna throw away these keys if they belong to a shithead. Are they anyone else's?"
posted by Etrigan at 7:57 AM on July 1, 2020 [31 favorites]
There is no such thing as correct or incorrect language. There is communicating and confusing language.
My corollary to that when speaking outside of work is:
Don't waste any time trying to communicate with people who aren't really confused.
"Hey, someone left their keys here."
"Whaaaaaat? You're using a singular object and a plural pronoun! I am confused by this! I cannot understand what you are trying to communicate!"
"Hey, I'm gonna throw away these keys if they belong to a shithead. Are they anyone else's?"
posted by Etrigan at 7:57 AM on July 1, 2020 [31 favorites]
As a spanish speaking person, I wish we had something as convenient as they.
There have been multiple suggestions through history and lately there's been some consensus around "elle" in the community but they all share the same problem the article mentions about alternative pronouns: they all are "invented" words instead of something that already exists, so there's a lot more munition for conservatives to complain about it and refuse to use it.
posted by simmering octagon at 8:23 AM on July 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
There have been multiple suggestions through history and lately there's been some consensus around "elle" in the community but they all share the same problem the article mentions about alternative pronouns: they all are "invented" words instead of something that already exists, so there's a lot more munition for conservatives to complain about it and refuse to use it.
posted by simmering octagon at 8:23 AM on July 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
If "Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo" is a legitimate sentence English will be able to survive the singular "they".
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:44 AM on July 1, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:44 AM on July 1, 2020 [3 favorites]
Hän is the gender-neutral Finnish personal pronoun that treats everyone equally
posted by Mrs Potato at 10:36 AM on July 1, 2020
posted by Mrs Potato at 10:36 AM on July 1, 2020
The correct answer is "my." Everyone misplaces my keys.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:37 AM on July 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:37 AM on July 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
Funny how the people who resist singular "they" don't get confused by "you".
posted by Foosnark at 12:05 PM on July 1, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by Foosnark at 12:05 PM on July 1, 2020 [5 favorites]
Swedish has that hän word too, only it's hen in Swedish. Based on the link, I imagine Swedes stole it from the Finns. Thanks, neighbors!
posted by Bella Donna at 12:23 PM on July 1, 2020
posted by Bella Donna at 12:23 PM on July 1, 2020
(Also, as someone forced to hear God too damn much at Al-Anon meetings, I could totally go for God/they because I am sick of God/him. /end of derail)
posted by Bella Donna at 12:28 PM on July 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Bella Donna at 12:28 PM on July 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
I thought we proved in 1999 that god is a woman and is Alanis Morissette.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:04 PM on July 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:04 PM on July 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
Patois / pidgin / creole speakers: how does this work for you?
As in 'got a mustard stain on him necktie / she dress / they trousers'?
posted by bartleby at 1:07 PM on July 1, 2020
As in 'got a mustard stain on him necktie / she dress / they trousers'?
posted by bartleby at 1:07 PM on July 1, 2020
Funny how the people who resist singular "they" don't get confused by "you".
So we should be using "th'all" as the plural form of "they."
posted by straight at 2:53 PM on July 1, 2020 [3 favorites]
So we should be using "th'all" as the plural form of "they."
posted by straight at 2:53 PM on July 1, 2020 [3 favorites]
Anem0ne: Pronouns aren't the only part of speech where gendering occurs.
I was having a discussion with my [sensitive] daughters and one of them noted that it was difficult learning French because, having dealt with the neutral pronouns, she had to do something with all the gender-agreeing adjectives: votre beau cousin but ma belle cousine. I gather that iel is gaining traction in French because it sounds like neither il nor elle so there is no "implied normal".
posted by BobTheScientist at 1:19 PM on July 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
I was having a discussion with my [sensitive] daughters and one of them noted that it was difficult learning French because, having dealt with the neutral pronouns, she had to do something with all the gender-agreeing adjectives: votre beau cousin but ma belle cousine. I gather that iel is gaining traction in French because it sounds like neither il nor elle so there is no "implied normal".
posted by BobTheScientist at 1:19 PM on July 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
Oddly enough, and this isn’t something that happens often, I had a dream last night that I met Kate Bornstein at a party (who I met once a whole gadzoinks ago) and then today read the linked essay where she’s quoted.
To be slightly more on topic, I wrote a novel a few years ago where a character goes by pronoun “hán”, which is a recently coined gender neutral personal pronoun in Icelandic. A section featuring that character was translated into English and the translator opted to use “ze/hir”, partly because it allowed the translator to replicate the pattern of pronoun usage in the original text. Which I thought very clever of the translator, given that pronouns are so particular across languages.
posted by Kattullus at 4:47 PM on July 2, 2020
To be slightly more on topic, I wrote a novel a few years ago where a character goes by pronoun “hán”, which is a recently coined gender neutral personal pronoun in Icelandic. A section featuring that character was translated into English and the translator opted to use “ze/hir”, partly because it allowed the translator to replicate the pattern of pronoun usage in the original text. Which I thought very clever of the translator, given that pronouns are so particular across languages.
posted by Kattullus at 4:47 PM on July 2, 2020
Just thought of something. For regional accent reasons, I am prone to elide 'them' to apostrophe-em in everyday speech.
As in "someone asks, I answer 'em." I also feel like in usage I often don't gender a third party that's previously been identified: 'If you see X at lunch, can you give this to 'em' rather than 'to her/him'.
I wonder if there's ever been a perceived misgendering.
"Tell 'em everyone loved the dessert they brought" sounds like Tell Him, which is quite offensive under certain variables.
Is this a thing?
posted by bartleby at 7:58 PM on July 2, 2020
As in "someone asks, I answer 'em." I also feel like in usage I often don't gender a third party that's previously been identified: 'If you see X at lunch, can you give this to 'em' rather than 'to her/him'.
I wonder if there's ever been a perceived misgendering.
"Tell 'em everyone loved the dessert they brought" sounds like Tell Him, which is quite offensive under certain variables.
Is this a thing?
posted by bartleby at 7:58 PM on July 2, 2020
« Older O Canada! | "It’s certainly long overdue" Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
I am of course an advocate of using the requested pronouns of the affected parties. But the author seems to be talking about when it's ambiguous and I genuinely don't understand why "their" is so early dismissed on grounds that don't seem to be true based on what I can see.
posted by like_neon at 6:52 AM on July 1, 2020 [4 favorites]