Why are rich people so mean?
July 1, 2020 7:39 PM Subscribe
"It’s not just that heartless people are more likely to become rich. I’m saying that being rich tends to corrode whatever heart you’ve got left." Terrific summary of research covering the corrosive effects of inequality, how we can (and should) resist it, and ultimately talking about the fact that rich people aren't assholes, rather being rich makes us all assholes.
That was a very interesting long-read. Thanks for posting it!
posted by hippybear at 7:59 PM on July 1, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 7:59 PM on July 1, 2020 [6 favorites]
Being kind and avoiding isolation is actually psychologically good for you. There is a personal and selfish reason to share.
posted by Meatbomb at 8:11 PM on July 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by Meatbomb at 8:11 PM on July 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
It's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy isn't it? Nice people don't get private jet rich because they have consciences or empathy and hence don't really have the stomach required to profit at the expense of others to the point where you can get private jet money. You don't make billions by paying people fair wages that share profits among the labor rather than having capital take most of the cream.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:18 PM on July 1, 2020 [23 favorites]
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:18 PM on July 1, 2020 [23 favorites]
That's not really what the article, and the research, is indicating at all though. Did you read it?
Books such as Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go to Work and The Psychopath Test argue that many traits characteristic of psychopaths are celebrated in business: ruthlessness, a convenient absence of social conscience, a single-minded focus on “success.” But while psychopaths may be ideally suited to some of the most lucrative professions, I’m arguing something different here. It’s not just that heartless people are more likely to become rich. I’m saying that being rich tends to corrode whatever heart you’ve got left. I’m suggesting, in other words, that it’s likely the wealthy subjects who participated in Muscatell’s study learned to be less unsettled by the photos of sick kids by the experience of being rich—much as I learned to ignore starving children in Rajastan so I could comfortably continue my vacation.posted by smoke at 8:23 PM on July 1, 2020 [51 favorites]
In an essay called “Extreme Wealth is Bad for Everyone—Especially the Wealthy,” Michael Lewis observed, “It is beginning to seem that the problem isn’t that the kind of people who wind up on the pleasant side of inequality suffer from some moral disability that gives them a market edge. The problem is caused by the inequality itself: It triggers a chemical reaction in the privileged few. It tilts their brains. It causes them to be less likely to care about anyone but themselves or to experience the moral sentiments needed to be a decent citizen.”
The four-way stop and pedestrian crossing experiments are fascinating. Cool link.
posted by j_curiouser at 8:37 PM on July 1, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by j_curiouser at 8:37 PM on July 1, 2020 [6 favorites]
Like with most social science things, it's likely going to be a mixture of the inherent cruelty needed to rise to the top of the capitalist hell machine (as Your Childhood Pet Rock points out), along with the corrosive exposure to the hell machine itself (which this article summarizes).
The research into altruism is incredibly interesting, especially the finding that rich people can be generous when in an environment with low inequality. This does not bode well for our current state of rampant inequality, which seems to indicate a feedback loop of cruelty and hoarding.
posted by Ouverture at 8:46 PM on July 1, 2020 [23 favorites]
The research into altruism is incredibly interesting, especially the finding that rich people can be generous when in an environment with low inequality. This does not bode well for our current state of rampant inequality, which seems to indicate a feedback loop of cruelty and hoarding.
posted by Ouverture at 8:46 PM on July 1, 2020 [23 favorites]
Dunno. Having worked in the Silicon Valley during stock booms I’ve seen all manner of everyday professionals cash million dollar checks. The only pattern I ever noticed was that nice people got nicer, and assholes became bigger assholes.
Some of those studies were pretty interesting though. A proclivity for lying about winning an unwinnable video game is fascinating to me. Others studies revealed a strange kind of naivety, like equating wealthy people with people who drive expensive cars.
I wish there were a way to redo a lot of those studies so that we could compare the same person before and after they became wealthy.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:03 PM on July 1, 2020 [16 favorites]
Some of those studies were pretty interesting though. A proclivity for lying about winning an unwinnable video game is fascinating to me. Others studies revealed a strange kind of naivety, like equating wealthy people with people who drive expensive cars.
I wish there were a way to redo a lot of those studies so that we could compare the same person before and after they became wealthy.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:03 PM on July 1, 2020 [16 favorites]
I'd volunteer for that experiment. (grin)
posted by PhineasGage at 9:11 PM on July 1, 2020 [12 favorites]
posted by PhineasGage at 9:11 PM on July 1, 2020 [12 favorites]
I wonder what Marx would've thought of this, such as, the individual is colonized by capitalism and inequality through a process in which simply having money literally objectifies the person, situationally making them less capable of empathy.
posted by polymodus at 9:20 PM on July 1, 2020 [12 favorites]
posted by polymodus at 9:20 PM on July 1, 2020 [12 favorites]
people in expensive cars were four times more likely to cut in front of other drivers, compared to folks in more modest vehicles.
Yeah, the traffic study bit was interesting, and helps to validate my feelings that pretty much anyone1 driving a BMW, Lexus, or Mercedes is more likely than not to be an asshole driver.
1 These feelings come from driving in Japan, but are likely to be replicable in other countries.
posted by Ghidorah at 9:26 PM on July 1, 2020 [17 favorites]
Yeah, the traffic study bit was interesting, and helps to validate my feelings that pretty much anyone1 driving a BMW, Lexus, or Mercedes is more likely than not to be an asshole driver.
1 These feelings come from driving in Japan, but are likely to be replicable in other countries.
posted by Ghidorah at 9:26 PM on July 1, 2020 [17 favorites]
Ghodirah: demonstrably true in the SF Bay Area, for BMW drivers.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 9:29 PM on July 1, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by armoir from antproof case at 9:29 PM on July 1, 2020 [3 favorites]
As someone who has driven delivery routes of various sorts for a living for over 20 years, I just assume everyone is an asshole driver and am appropriately cautious at all times.
posted by hippybear at 9:30 PM on July 1, 2020 [14 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 9:30 PM on July 1, 2020 [14 favorites]
I'd volunteer for that experiment.
not after you became rich you wouldn’t
posted by um at 9:53 PM on July 1, 2020 [28 favorites]
not after you became rich you wouldn’t
posted by um at 9:53 PM on July 1, 2020 [28 favorites]
anyone driving a BMW, Lexus, or Mercedes is more likely than not to be an asshole driver.
Well that’s not really fair. You have to drive those like an asshole or other people get confused and it causes accidents.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:05 PM on July 1, 2020 [16 favorites]
Well that’s not really fair. You have to drive those like an asshole or other people get confused and it causes accidents.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:05 PM on July 1, 2020 [16 favorites]
I would have liked to see more about the bit in India because the feelings it raised in me were familiar. When confronted with the overwhelming amount of need out there, even a fat wallet feels inadequate and it can be paralyzing. I wonder if that drives some of the distancing.
posted by emjaybee at 10:40 PM on July 1, 2020 [15 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 10:40 PM on July 1, 2020 [15 favorites]
So Brecht, pretty much everything, but very much The Good Man of Szechuan: (Spoilers for an 80 year old bit of German epic theater.)
The one good person in the province--a prostitute--gets a little shop, which she wants because she can of course have something of her own, but also to help people. That's her whole ambition, she could have had more, but she's not greedy.
As soon as she gets it though she is beset by requests. She wants to share, and starts by doing it, but soon has to say "no," exactly as the article mentions. And Brecht is clear that the people asking are by no means all deserving, including most especially a shiftless, gadabout lover who milks her for cash. She's a target now.
Eventually she is unable to keep up, and her shop is facing bankrupcty, so she starts pretending to be a fictional asshole cousin who lays down the law and saves the shop. Then the cousin 'leaves' she can then use the shop, solvent again, to do good. This is a cycle, but of course as time goes on she spends more and more time as the asshole.
In her case the transition to asshole is not greed! It's simply the act of trying to hang on to something that corrodes her.
This is in some ways the same as TFA, but the article implicitly assumes you can be a good person with a bunch of cash. (I hope that's true, I am by no definition poor.) But it's kind of like "if you feel the right amount of empathy you can still hang on to a lot of money." Brecht basically posits no floor; there's always someone you're turning your back on until you're at the bottom.
posted by mark k at 10:47 PM on July 1, 2020 [54 favorites]
The one good person in the province--a prostitute--gets a little shop, which she wants because she can of course have something of her own, but also to help people. That's her whole ambition, she could have had more, but she's not greedy.
As soon as she gets it though she is beset by requests. She wants to share, and starts by doing it, but soon has to say "no," exactly as the article mentions. And Brecht is clear that the people asking are by no means all deserving, including most especially a shiftless, gadabout lover who milks her for cash. She's a target now.
Eventually she is unable to keep up, and her shop is facing bankrupcty, so she starts pretending to be a fictional asshole cousin who lays down the law and saves the shop. Then the cousin 'leaves' she can then use the shop, solvent again, to do good. This is a cycle, but of course as time goes on she spends more and more time as the asshole.
In her case the transition to asshole is not greed! It's simply the act of trying to hang on to something that corrodes her.
This is in some ways the same as TFA, but the article implicitly assumes you can be a good person with a bunch of cash. (I hope that's true, I am by no definition poor.) But it's kind of like "if you feel the right amount of empathy you can still hang on to a lot of money." Brecht basically posits no floor; there's always someone you're turning your back on until you're at the bottom.
posted by mark k at 10:47 PM on July 1, 2020 [54 favorites]
Wealth is so corrosive. Its so exciting to have and gives such freedom. But my goodness, it comes at a cost.
posted by Plutocratte at 11:48 PM on July 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Plutocratte at 11:48 PM on July 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
So Peter Singer, after much hard work in philosophy and wrestling with how to be a good person, came up with the formulation, "Live as simple a life as possible, and any spare money you have, give to charities that look after children in poor countries."
My Grade 1 teacher was Sister Melania, a Catholic nun who had been teaching for well over forty years by the time I was in her class, and as an atheist, rational, critical thinking philosopher, I doubt Dr Singer would ever have sought out her company.
Nonetheless the lesson she taught daily was that to be a good person, you should work with the talents you have, live as simple a life as possible and give any spare money that you have to charities that look after children in poor countries.
Good to know that I got there ahead of Dr Singer, thanks to Sister Melania.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 11:49 PM on July 1, 2020 [26 favorites]
My Grade 1 teacher was Sister Melania, a Catholic nun who had been teaching for well over forty years by the time I was in her class, and as an atheist, rational, critical thinking philosopher, I doubt Dr Singer would ever have sought out her company.
Nonetheless the lesson she taught daily was that to be a good person, you should work with the talents you have, live as simple a life as possible and give any spare money that you have to charities that look after children in poor countries.
Good to know that I got there ahead of Dr Singer, thanks to Sister Melania.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 11:49 PM on July 1, 2020 [26 favorites]
I would have liked to see more about the bit in India because the feelings it raised in me were familiar. When confronted with the overwhelming amount of need out there, even a fat wallet feels inadequate and it can be paralyzing. I wonder if that drives some of the distancing
Me too. You could empty your bank account and it would be meaningless. The only way to effectively help there 1) devote work to it, like build an orphanage or school or similar 2) lobby for social and government action.
posted by Meatbomb at 12:09 AM on July 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
Me too. You could empty your bank account and it would be meaningless. The only way to effectively help there 1) devote work to it, like build an orphanage or school or similar 2) lobby for social and government action.
posted by Meatbomb at 12:09 AM on July 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
I wonder if this happens only with material wealth. I expect it happens sometimes with prestige (of the sort that doesn’t necessarily generate material wealth).
posted by nat at 12:36 AM on July 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by nat at 12:36 AM on July 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
I would have liked to see more about the bit in India because the feelings it raised in me were familiar. When confronted with the overwhelming amount of need out there, even a fat wallet feels inadequate and it can be paralyzing. I wonder if that drives some of the distancing.
When I've been the Rich Tourist, besides the overwhelm, I found it corrosive to be feeling like everybody I met was running some variety of scheme -- a chat leading into a sales pitch, a kickback for what they told me. I've heard rich people say that everybody keeps being just after their wallet and they're cynical about everyone, which obviously hurts empathy. I wonder if I would be tempted to give less money to people (through GiveDirectly etc.) if I knew them face-to-face. Unexpected.
(What I eventually realized was that yes, most people who approached me were looking for money fast or slow (because I was an obvious source, and who can blame them), but if I approached someone they were just regular people, more-or-less lovely and interesting people.)
posted by away for regrooving at 1:04 AM on July 2, 2020 [30 favorites]
When I've been the Rich Tourist, besides the overwhelm, I found it corrosive to be feeling like everybody I met was running some variety of scheme -- a chat leading into a sales pitch, a kickback for what they told me. I've heard rich people say that everybody keeps being just after their wallet and they're cynical about everyone, which obviously hurts empathy. I wonder if I would be tempted to give less money to people (through GiveDirectly etc.) if I knew them face-to-face. Unexpected.
(What I eventually realized was that yes, most people who approached me were looking for money fast or slow (because I was an obvious source, and who can blame them), but if I approached someone they were just regular people, more-or-less lovely and interesting people.)
posted by away for regrooving at 1:04 AM on July 2, 2020 [30 favorites]
I hate the throwaway line that the idea that the solutions to the problems of poverty/homelessness are social programs is a rationalization. It isn't. The idea that the solution to any of these problems is to live simply and give away spare money. This is akin to solving global warming by recycling one's cans and glass as hard as possible. There's nothing wrong with that but when 71% of the problem is global corporations it starts to look disingenuous. Much the same way as the idea that we should fight homelessness or poverty by engaging in individual actions. Individual actions don't solve these problems, structural changes are the only way.
posted by axiom at 1:24 AM on July 2, 2020 [65 favorites]
posted by axiom at 1:24 AM on July 2, 2020 [65 favorites]
I really liked this article -- thanks for sharing.
It aligns very well with the realisations I had when I was a Peace Corps volunteer in Mozambique. I had the exact same set of experiences as the author did in India -- from the paralysis to the realisation that in order to psychologically get through the day, I was walling myself off from empathy in a way that made me acutely uncomfortable. It made me realise that even for rich people, it is healthier and nicer to live in a more equal society.
I have similar feelings when I go back to visit the US from Australia now, sadly. (Not that Australia is an egalitarian paradise; but the different in inequality here vs the US is increasingly apparent every time I go back to visit).
posted by forza at 1:29 AM on July 2, 2020 [15 favorites]
It aligns very well with the realisations I had when I was a Peace Corps volunteer in Mozambique. I had the exact same set of experiences as the author did in India -- from the paralysis to the realisation that in order to psychologically get through the day, I was walling myself off from empathy in a way that made me acutely uncomfortable. It made me realise that even for rich people, it is healthier and nicer to live in a more equal society.
I have similar feelings when I go back to visit the US from Australia now, sadly. (Not that Australia is an egalitarian paradise; but the different in inequality here vs the US is increasingly apparent every time I go back to visit).
posted by forza at 1:29 AM on July 2, 2020 [15 favorites]
This pretty much the description of the god realm in buddhist cosmology/psychology.
posted by roguewraith at 4:15 AM on July 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by roguewraith at 4:15 AM on July 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
It's also really interesting how we draw the line above ourselves and call that rich, when globally for many of us, we are the top percents. I'm not wealthy by the standards of my society (though comfortable) but compared to the whole world, I am rich. I wonder what that does to my altruism and empathy.
posted by freethefeet at 4:23 AM on July 2, 2020 [16 favorites]
posted by freethefeet at 4:23 AM on July 2, 2020 [16 favorites]
I just assume everyone is an asshole driver and am appropriately cautious at all times.
I once kept a little tally clicker in my car, and every time I saw someone driving like an asshole I'd click it -- hoping to do that instead of yelling obscenities and getting all worked up over something I can't control.
It made me realize just how few drivers actually come off as assholes, which was at least somewhat encouraging. But like rich people, they tend to dominate the space around them. In fact I kind of think that might be what defines vehicular assholery.
posted by Foosnark at 4:42 AM on July 2, 2020 [9 favorites]
I once kept a little tally clicker in my car, and every time I saw someone driving like an asshole I'd click it -- hoping to do that instead of yelling obscenities and getting all worked up over something I can't control.
It made me realize just how few drivers actually come off as assholes, which was at least somewhat encouraging. But like rich people, they tend to dominate the space around them. In fact I kind of think that might be what defines vehicular assholery.
posted by Foosnark at 4:42 AM on July 2, 2020 [9 favorites]
Yeah. To live simply and give away excess money. Who among us really feels they have excess money? However much you have, it always feels like you really really need that amount (and probably could do with a little bit more). It is very hard to see the conditions of one’s own life (as wealthy westerners) and really think that you have enough or could do with less. This is perhaps where the personal responsibility vs social structural changes intersect. Of course tax avoiding capitalist corporations and the governmental systems that uphold them are major factors in inequality. But they get their profits from people who buy the things they sell. What if we really all looked at what we need, actually NEED, and gave away the rest? We wouldn’t buy and buy into nearly as much of the capitalistic crap. Does this solve inequality? Probably not. But if everyone actually radically changed what they thought of as necessary, other systems might evolve, of mutual care and sharing. I have shelter and food and am content with that, so I can devote my action to sharing and supporting others until we all have shelter and food. I turn my mind away from what else I could have and start looking to help others. We could all do this, even within a capitalist society.
I think the major stumbling block in my idealistic vision is rent. I do wonder what would happen if rent was abolished and everyone could just live in these plentiful buildings which already exist and so weren’t trapped in the struggle to maintain a roof over their heads. I think it’s property that turns people into assholes, not being rich.
posted by Balthamos at 5:37 AM on July 2, 2020 [7 favorites]
I think the major stumbling block in my idealistic vision is rent. I do wonder what would happen if rent was abolished and everyone could just live in these plentiful buildings which already exist and so weren’t trapped in the struggle to maintain a roof over their heads. I think it’s property that turns people into assholes, not being rich.
posted by Balthamos at 5:37 AM on July 2, 2020 [7 favorites]
Did I miss any distinctions between people who inherit their wealth and those who acquire it? The ones I have met in the first category seem more oblivious but maybe less mean. No data, just an impression.
posted by Botanizer at 5:50 AM on July 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Botanizer at 5:50 AM on July 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
Can't reach the article right now, but it does bring to mind a study I heard referenced on Behind The Bastards (itself the subject of a recent MeFi post) that compared the cognitive effects of wealth to traumatic brain industry (TBI), with similar outcomes of sociopathy, diminished empathy, increased impulsivity and anger management issues.
Extending the comparison, we're discovering that participation in any physical impact sport exposes participants to TBI, even in sports previously thought to be relatively "mild", such as soccer / football. Obviously different players can have different outcomes, but in general the risk of negative outcomes grows the more one plays. At the very least, I think that may be a useful metaphor for the effects of accumulated wealth.
At the other end, we see a cluster of related-but-different cognitive effects associated with poverty: children growing up in conditions of financial stress have less cortical grey matter and lowered hippocampus and amygdala volumes, structures responsible for stress regulation and emotional processing. This suggests that there may be a U-shaped curve that associates income and deleterious cognitive effects: bad at the extremes, null in the middle.
posted by Bora Horza Gobuchul at 5:52 AM on July 2, 2020 [10 favorites]
Extending the comparison, we're discovering that participation in any physical impact sport exposes participants to TBI, even in sports previously thought to be relatively "mild", such as soccer / football. Obviously different players can have different outcomes, but in general the risk of negative outcomes grows the more one plays. At the very least, I think that may be a useful metaphor for the effects of accumulated wealth.
At the other end, we see a cluster of related-but-different cognitive effects associated with poverty: children growing up in conditions of financial stress have less cortical grey matter and lowered hippocampus and amygdala volumes, structures responsible for stress regulation and emotional processing. This suggests that there may be a U-shaped curve that associates income and deleterious cognitive effects: bad at the extremes, null in the middle.
posted by Bora Horza Gobuchul at 5:52 AM on July 2, 2020 [10 favorites]
Yeah, the traffic study bit was interesting, and helps to validate my feelings that pretty much anyone1 driving a BMW, Lexus, or Mercedes is more likely than not to be an asshole driver.
Currently, at least in my neck of the woods, the Tesla drivers are winning this race
posted by thivaia at 5:55 AM on July 2, 2020 [6 favorites]
Who among us really feels they have excess money? However much you have, it always feels like you really really need that amount (and probably could do with a little bit more)
A major waypoint on my path to happiness was deciding how much is enough. It is admittedly a lot, but it’s a real number and anything above it gets put back into the community. I’m not the only person who does this.
Without a lucky strike (see stock boom above) "enough" is permanently out of reach for the average American, and so realistically they really never will have enough. But such a number can and does exist.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:58 AM on July 2, 2020 [7 favorites]
A major waypoint on my path to happiness was deciding how much is enough. It is admittedly a lot, but it’s a real number and anything above it gets put back into the community. I’m not the only person who does this.
Without a lucky strike (see stock boom above) "enough" is permanently out of reach for the average American, and so realistically they really never will have enough. But such a number can and does exist.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:58 AM on July 2, 2020 [7 favorites]
The biggest asshole drivers in my world are driving trucks, not cars.
posted by Ansible at 6:06 AM on July 2, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by Ansible at 6:06 AM on July 2, 2020 [10 favorites]
It's also really interesting how we draw the line above ourselves and call that rich, when globally for many of us, we are the top percents. I'm not wealthy by the standards of my society (though comfortable) but compared to the whole world, I am rich. I wonder what that does to my altruism and empathy.
This always comes up for me when people take wealth inequality personally. It seems more like that while the rich may fear you, they’d really rather not think about you at all. And in turn, your phone was built in a Chinese sweatshop, your mass produced clothing pretty much the same, and the fabric for it most likely has been touched by slaves. We don’t hate those people, we just really don’t want to think about them.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:11 AM on July 2, 2020 [10 favorites]
This always comes up for me when people take wealth inequality personally. It seems more like that while the rich may fear you, they’d really rather not think about you at all. And in turn, your phone was built in a Chinese sweatshop, your mass produced clothing pretty much the same, and the fabric for it most likely has been touched by slaves. We don’t hate those people, we just really don’t want to think about them.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:11 AM on July 2, 2020 [10 favorites]
I wonder if the low inequality giving was distinguished between philanthropy for the poor and philanthropy for the rich. Philanthropy for the poor is things that directly improve the lives of the poor, be it direct cash, building clinics in underserved areas, putting money towards lobbying for a imprinted safety net, etc. Philanthropy for the rich is giving Harvard anther couple of million, putting your name in an arts center that is mostly attended by middle class/rich people, giving money to groups that support the stalls who or work to support generalized inequality (NRA, Cato, regressive Christian organizations, etc.)
I have a sneaking suspicion that the giving while surrounded by minimal inequality is more on the Koch brothers side of things (things that rich people can enjoy and oh yeah, the poor might get something out of it too, I guess) rather than the Gates side of things (which as much as it has caused issues with things like school reform, is at least decent when it comes to endemic diseases ignored by most).
If anyone has studies on this, I'd love to see them. I tend to assume that even when rich people give their money away, it's either to improve something that they enjoy our it isn't really giving it away, just moving it into trusts that sit there and occasionally give a million or two to look good. (I should probably put together a FPP about how scummy donor advised finds can be, especially corporate ones.)
posted by Hactar at 6:21 AM on July 2, 2020 [6 favorites]
I have a sneaking suspicion that the giving while surrounded by minimal inequality is more on the Koch brothers side of things (things that rich people can enjoy and oh yeah, the poor might get something out of it too, I guess) rather than the Gates side of things (which as much as it has caused issues with things like school reform, is at least decent when it comes to endemic diseases ignored by most).
If anyone has studies on this, I'd love to see them. I tend to assume that even when rich people give their money away, it's either to improve something that they enjoy our it isn't really giving it away, just moving it into trusts that sit there and occasionally give a million or two to look good. (I should probably put together a FPP about how scummy donor advised finds can be, especially corporate ones.)
posted by Hactar at 6:21 AM on July 2, 2020 [6 favorites]
Back in the summer of '08 I did door-to-door voter registration in St. Petersburg, FL. And it was HOT! The more modest the home the more likely the residents were to offer me a cold drink, a few minutes to cool off in their air conditioning, and a kind word of appreciation for what I was doing. In terms of education and skin color I was much more similar to the people in the fancy houses who never offered a cold drink.
posted by mareli at 6:27 AM on July 2, 2020 [12 favorites]
posted by mareli at 6:27 AM on July 2, 2020 [12 favorites]
As long as I am one severe medical event from destitution I can never say I have enough.
posted by emjaybee at 6:32 AM on July 2, 2020 [50 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 6:32 AM on July 2, 2020 [50 favorites]
As long as I am one severe medical event from destitution I can never say I have enough.
This is the key. This, and the fact that Americans are terrified, perhaps rightly, about how we will be able to afford to live after we stop working, are in my mind the two keys to not having enough. People who are comfortable now, who are making more than their material needs on a month-to-month basis are still told at every turn that they have to be saving against the two blank checks that our bodies have written on our behalf, in this broken society.
Arguably, saving for one's children's college tuition is another such blank check, but that one seems a little less inevitable than a medical event or the day when one is no longer working, whether by one's own choice or not.
posted by gauche at 6:56 AM on July 2, 2020 [34 favorites]
This is the key. This, and the fact that Americans are terrified, perhaps rightly, about how we will be able to afford to live after we stop working, are in my mind the two keys to not having enough. People who are comfortable now, who are making more than their material needs on a month-to-month basis are still told at every turn that they have to be saving against the two blank checks that our bodies have written on our behalf, in this broken society.
Arguably, saving for one's children's college tuition is another such blank check, but that one seems a little less inevitable than a medical event or the day when one is no longer working, whether by one's own choice or not.
posted by gauche at 6:56 AM on July 2, 2020 [34 favorites]
The biggest asshole drivers in my world are driving trucks, not cars.
That's kind of a hole in that study. 50%-60% of cars sold that cost more than $50k are pick up trucks in the US every month.
As long as I am one severe medical event from destitution I can never say I have enough.
Another hole in the 'sad cancer faces' study. Emotion does not imply action. If it did, then we would already have something like universal health care.
Overall, I felt the article was projecting, and the research thin to the point of being silly, certainly not enough to create a case for something called RAS.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:45 AM on July 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
That's kind of a hole in that study. 50%-60% of cars sold that cost more than $50k are pick up trucks in the US every month.
As long as I am one severe medical event from destitution I can never say I have enough.
Another hole in the 'sad cancer faces' study. Emotion does not imply action. If it did, then we would already have something like universal health care.
Overall, I felt the article was projecting, and the research thin to the point of being silly, certainly not enough to create a case for something called RAS.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:45 AM on July 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
As long as I am one severe medical event from destitution I can never say I have enough.
This is the key. This, and the fact that Americans are terrified, perhaps rightly, about how we will be able to afford to live after we stop working, are in my mind the two keys to not having enough.
I mean, have you not ever met anyone that is retired?
Also, I don't know that many wealthy people, but even the upper middle class people I know are not terribly worried about their medical care, and I work with someone mid-40s who needs a heart transplant that doesn't support any kind of universal health care. Sure, they complain about the costs, but only in an abstract way, not in a way that would imply major life changes or even minor ones, because emotion doesn't imply action.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:50 AM on July 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
This is the key. This, and the fact that Americans are terrified, perhaps rightly, about how we will be able to afford to live after we stop working, are in my mind the two keys to not having enough.
I mean, have you not ever met anyone that is retired?
Also, I don't know that many wealthy people, but even the upper middle class people I know are not terribly worried about their medical care, and I work with someone mid-40s who needs a heart transplant that doesn't support any kind of universal health care. Sure, they complain about the costs, but only in an abstract way, not in a way that would imply major life changes or even minor ones, because emotion doesn't imply action.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:50 AM on July 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
Joshua Ha-Notzri to the white courtesy phone.
posted by No Robots at 8:07 AM on July 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by No Robots at 8:07 AM on July 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
I know a couple of wealthy people, have certainly encountered wealthy people. There's a reason for gated communities, the curtain for 1st class, shares on private jets, exclusive resorts, etc. Very wealthy people hang out together and don't have to face poverty and hardship that might make them feel uncomfortable. Other wealthy people reassure them that their stocks and real estate trusts and corporate positions are fine, normal, not harmful. I've seen people acquire wealth and be very changed.
You could empty your bank account and it would be meaningless. I've encountered dire poverty a few times. Emptying your bank account would be a tiny drop in a big bucket, but it would be very meaningful to a significant number of people. Like Peter Singer's useful analogy about the pond. if you can't save everybody, it's still pretty great to save a few. This is not aimed at you, meatbomb, as I suspect you have emptied your wallet if not your bank account. Genuinely dire mass poverty is overwhelming.
Interesting article, thanks for posting.
posted by theora55 at 8:08 AM on July 2, 2020 [5 favorites]
You could empty your bank account and it would be meaningless. I've encountered dire poverty a few times. Emptying your bank account would be a tiny drop in a big bucket, but it would be very meaningful to a significant number of people. Like Peter Singer's useful analogy about the pond. if you can't save everybody, it's still pretty great to save a few. This is not aimed at you, meatbomb, as I suspect you have emptied your wallet if not your bank account. Genuinely dire mass poverty is overwhelming.
Interesting article, thanks for posting.
posted by theora55 at 8:08 AM on July 2, 2020 [5 favorites]
I mean, have you not ever met anyone that is retired?
I'm not sure what you are trying to imply here; is it that retired people actually have it easy, or that Americans are indeed rightly frightened that they will outlive their savings?
You may note that I did not use the word "retired" in my comment; that was deliberate. How people are able to live after they stop working is highly varied in actual practice; some are able to live comfortably and others live with a great deal of precarity. To answer your question, I have indeed met people who have stopped working and who live at many different points along this spectrum.
posted by gauche at 8:32 AM on July 2, 2020 [8 favorites]
I'm not sure what you are trying to imply here; is it that retired people actually have it easy, or that Americans are indeed rightly frightened that they will outlive their savings?
You may note that I did not use the word "retired" in my comment; that was deliberate. How people are able to live after they stop working is highly varied in actual practice; some are able to live comfortably and others live with a great deal of precarity. To answer your question, I have indeed met people who have stopped working and who live at many different points along this spectrum.
posted by gauche at 8:32 AM on July 2, 2020 [8 favorites]
This reminds me of the critiques that are going around of this tweet by someone called The Wealth Dad. As one friend noted, first of all, the people who are only ever talking about stocks or real estate sound like horrible people to hang out with—but it's more than that. As you say, theora55, people who have these things (like myself) can lose sight of the fact that those aren't things people without means, especially without the type of generational wealth that many white people in the U.S. take for granted, can ever even see as accessible options. Given how many people are out of work now and burning through any savings they had whatsoever (and laughing bitterly about the mistaken notion that most people would have had anything approaching 6 months' worth of savings on hand), it also feels entirely tone-deaf, as we all stand on the precipice of a depression.
I will say, one thing that makes me hopeful for the future is some of the early data on how dating apps can help bridge socioeconomic and racial divides. (There is also some data that the apps can be used to reinforce these divides, of course.) I have seen a few anecdotal examples, including in my own experience, of how you can meet someone that way who challenges your view of the world and your notions of what's important, and whose experiences change the lens through which you view the world and increase your empathy. I wish more people could have experiences like that.
Also, I notice that this article came out last September. I really would love to see a follow-up with any data gathered during the pandemic and protests thus far. As many folks have pointed out, the rise of protests seems connected to the circumstances of the pandemic—in more ways than the obvious, i.e., that so many people of color are out of work now, and disproportionately affected or killed by putting themselves on the line to serve others during the pandemic, that police violence now feels especially unendurable for a moment longer. The less obvious thing that people are theorizing is that many folks who were less vulnerable before the pandemic, because of their means and wealth, were shocked into recognizing our shared vulnerability and connectedness as humans. You still have people like these assholes in my hometown, living in their gilded mansion and brandishing guns at protesters, but I've also seen a lot of people doing real self-examination and stepping up to support people of color and the less fortunate through donations, organizing food deliveries, buying their work if they're artists or writers or musicians, etc.
What makes me despair, though, is realizing my hometown, next door to Ferguson, is a microcosm of what people across the U.S. and world are going through now during this larger protest movement. I've seen hopeful things—e.g., people I argued with in 2014 now being the ones speaking out for justice on their Facebook pages here in 2020. But I've also seen how people can live through the same historical circumstances and come away with completely different interpretations. People I thought had the right ideas about things when I was younger have since revealed themselves to be all about that thin blue line or All Lives Matter colonizers who don't think twice about their privilege and what it's wrought. Maybe part of the difference is wealth.
I hate the throwaway line that the idea that the solutions to the problems of poverty/homelessness are social programs is a rationalization. It isn't. The idea that the solution to any of these problems is to live simply and give away spare money. This is akin to solving global warming by recycling one's cans and glass as hard as possible. There's nothing wrong with that but when 71% of the problem is global corporations it starts to look disingenuous. Much the same way as the idea that we should fight homelessness or poverty by engaging in individual actions. Individual actions don't solve these problems, structural changes are the only way.
Allll of that said, axiom really pointed out something crucial here. Yes, it's important that folks are able to relearn to connect with each other across socioeconomic and racial divides and build their empathy and work together toward better conditions for everyone. But individual actions in some ways only make us feel better and are short-term solutions at best, because they can serve to just reinforce the assumption that we are only capable of expressing our desire for betterment through working within a capitalist system that is built on individual choices and consumerism. We have to find ways to instead take collective action and build outside of that framework. It's a valid critique that some people are co-opting a protest movement to push their agenda of dismantling capitalism—yet finding ways to work outside of consumerism remains crucial to envisioning better, more just systems for everyone.
posted by limeonaire at 8:53 AM on July 2, 2020 [8 favorites]
I will say, one thing that makes me hopeful for the future is some of the early data on how dating apps can help bridge socioeconomic and racial divides. (There is also some data that the apps can be used to reinforce these divides, of course.) I have seen a few anecdotal examples, including in my own experience, of how you can meet someone that way who challenges your view of the world and your notions of what's important, and whose experiences change the lens through which you view the world and increase your empathy. I wish more people could have experiences like that.
Also, I notice that this article came out last September. I really would love to see a follow-up with any data gathered during the pandemic and protests thus far. As many folks have pointed out, the rise of protests seems connected to the circumstances of the pandemic—in more ways than the obvious, i.e., that so many people of color are out of work now, and disproportionately affected or killed by putting themselves on the line to serve others during the pandemic, that police violence now feels especially unendurable for a moment longer. The less obvious thing that people are theorizing is that many folks who were less vulnerable before the pandemic, because of their means and wealth, were shocked into recognizing our shared vulnerability and connectedness as humans. You still have people like these assholes in my hometown, living in their gilded mansion and brandishing guns at protesters, but I've also seen a lot of people doing real self-examination and stepping up to support people of color and the less fortunate through donations, organizing food deliveries, buying their work if they're artists or writers or musicians, etc.
What makes me despair, though, is realizing my hometown, next door to Ferguson, is a microcosm of what people across the U.S. and world are going through now during this larger protest movement. I've seen hopeful things—e.g., people I argued with in 2014 now being the ones speaking out for justice on their Facebook pages here in 2020. But I've also seen how people can live through the same historical circumstances and come away with completely different interpretations. People I thought had the right ideas about things when I was younger have since revealed themselves to be all about that thin blue line or All Lives Matter colonizers who don't think twice about their privilege and what it's wrought. Maybe part of the difference is wealth.
I hate the throwaway line that the idea that the solutions to the problems of poverty/homelessness are social programs is a rationalization. It isn't. The idea that the solution to any of these problems is to live simply and give away spare money. This is akin to solving global warming by recycling one's cans and glass as hard as possible. There's nothing wrong with that but when 71% of the problem is global corporations it starts to look disingenuous. Much the same way as the idea that we should fight homelessness or poverty by engaging in individual actions. Individual actions don't solve these problems, structural changes are the only way.
Allll of that said, axiom really pointed out something crucial here. Yes, it's important that folks are able to relearn to connect with each other across socioeconomic and racial divides and build their empathy and work together toward better conditions for everyone. But individual actions in some ways only make us feel better and are short-term solutions at best, because they can serve to just reinforce the assumption that we are only capable of expressing our desire for betterment through working within a capitalist system that is built on individual choices and consumerism. We have to find ways to instead take collective action and build outside of that framework. It's a valid critique that some people are co-opting a protest movement to push their agenda of dismantling capitalism—yet finding ways to work outside of consumerism remains crucial to envisioning better, more just systems for everyone.
posted by limeonaire at 8:53 AM on July 2, 2020 [8 favorites]
I wonder what Marx would've thought of this, such as, the individual is colonized by capitalism and inequality through a process in which simply having money literally objectifies the person, situationally making them less capable of empathy.
As I understand it, this is entirely consistent with Marx’s critique of capitalism. Capitalism is not a consequence of individual moral failure; Marx’s critique is immanent, revealing the systemic contradictions of capitalism that transcend the individual. This is why marxists despise liberals :)
posted by thedamnbees at 10:10 AM on July 2, 2020 [5 favorites]
As I understand it, this is entirely consistent with Marx’s critique of capitalism. Capitalism is not a consequence of individual moral failure; Marx’s critique is immanent, revealing the systemic contradictions of capitalism that transcend the individual. This is why marxists despise liberals :)
posted by thedamnbees at 10:10 AM on July 2, 2020 [5 favorites]
I'm not sure what you are trying to imply here; is it that retired people actually have it easy, or that Americans are indeed rightly frightened that they will outlive their savings?
I'm implying that people all across the economic spectrum have been able to stop working at some age, and rationalizing that one cannot do so without some exceptional sum of money is no different than the guy with $3.5 million rationalizing continuing to work. The article implies that type of rationalization gives you RAS.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:36 AM on July 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'm implying that people all across the economic spectrum have been able to stop working at some age, and rationalizing that one cannot do so without some exceptional sum of money is no different than the guy with $3.5 million rationalizing continuing to work. The article implies that type of rationalization gives you RAS.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:36 AM on July 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
remembering an 80s standup bit (but not its author): “I'm asked for spare change, but how will I know?”
posted by scruss at 11:49 AM on July 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by scruss at 11:49 AM on July 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
This article makes a great case for why we need to stop doing the "Humans are different from animals because X." phenomenom.
Our cities are typically an environment in which we are 'separate' from nature, and that makes it easier to forget that all the other animals on this planet (plants, funguses, etc) are our equals.
posted by aniola at 12:07 PM on July 2, 2020
Our cities are typically an environment in which we are 'separate' from nature, and that makes it easier to forget that all the other animals on this planet (plants, funguses, etc) are our equals.
posted by aniola at 12:07 PM on July 2, 2020
I know people working minimum wage jobs. Often they have no savings, and still live with roommates, and still have student debt. Few of them are in their 20s, this isn't just a young person thing, though young people are definitely part of it. Some are undocumented, so no retirement benefits. Even for the ones who aren't paid under the table (robbing them of social security benefits) I honestly am not sure they will be able to retire.
Their bosses are often wealthy. I think more people need to realize paying people poorly is a wealth transfer from poor people to rich people. And a lot of the time they are stealing too.
posted by gryftir at 6:36 PM on July 2, 2020 [11 favorites]
Their bosses are often wealthy. I think more people need to realize paying people poorly is a wealth transfer from poor people to rich people. And a lot of the time they are stealing too.
posted by gryftir at 6:36 PM on July 2, 2020 [11 favorites]
All the rich people I know are liberals. Their number one argument for not giving away their money is that inequality is a structural problem, not something that can be fixed with individual actions. And it's the same argument I use against giving to the substantial numbers poorer than me in the US and the billions poorer than me in the world. As Singer argues extensively, that logic is fundamentally flawed, even while it is true that the problem is fundamentally systemic and systemic solutions are necesssary. Unlike recycling harder, giving harder can directly save an actual, specific life that would be lost otherwise. The fact that so many of us accept the "structural not individual" false dichotomy shows how thoroughly wealth corrupts reason. We all know that no one on the receiving end of a potential gift would argue against it on the grounds that the problem is structural -- and imagining they would usually provokes a laugh. That laugh is either the thought that their acceptance is self-servingly deluded, or an evasion of the thought that it is of course correct.
posted by chortly at 8:18 PM on July 2, 2020 [22 favorites]
posted by chortly at 8:18 PM on July 2, 2020 [22 favorites]
According to an article on CNBC.com, Craig Wolfe, the owner of CelebriDucks, the largest custom collectible rubber duck manufacturer, intends to leave the millions he’s made to charity, which is amazing—but nowhere near as amazing as the fact that someone made millions of dollars selling collectible rubber ducks.posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 5:37 AM on July 3, 2020 [3 favorites]
Hm, that's interesting, chortly. I hadn't thought about it like that.
posted by limeonaire at 7:58 AM on July 3, 2020
posted by limeonaire at 7:58 AM on July 3, 2020
Unlike recycling harder, giving harder can directly save an actual, specific life that would be lost otherwise.
A friend of mine gave me 1000 bucks, no strings attached, when they got a well-paying job after a period of unemployment. I did not ask for it, but they knew I was hard up. That money was an amazing gift. My buddy make it clear that it was not a loan but did ask me to share the wealth if I became able to at some point. Two other friends of mine eventually benefitted from that initial act of generosity after I got more work and was able to help those friends. My buddy is one of the most generous people I know when it comes to reaching into their wallet. They helped me when I really needed it, and I will always be grateful for that.
This was an interesting post. This is probably a shallow take but honestly, I feel like the best way to save wealthy people from themselves and people with too much power is to just tax the hell out of them and limit their power, respectively. My biggest problem with specific so-called rich assholes isn't their failure to give money to good causes or needy individuals, it's their enthusiasm for buying politicians to get what they want, which inevitably involves actively fucking over the poor and the marginalised rather than merely ignoring them. You know, folks like the Koch brothers, Mark Zuckerberg, and that Tesla guy (I know his name but it's not like he needs more press) who doesn't seem to give a shit about his employees, at least not the factory-floor level ones.
posted by Bella Donna at 2:00 PM on July 3, 2020 [17 favorites]
A friend of mine gave me 1000 bucks, no strings attached, when they got a well-paying job after a period of unemployment. I did not ask for it, but they knew I was hard up. That money was an amazing gift. My buddy make it clear that it was not a loan but did ask me to share the wealth if I became able to at some point. Two other friends of mine eventually benefitted from that initial act of generosity after I got more work and was able to help those friends. My buddy is one of the most generous people I know when it comes to reaching into their wallet. They helped me when I really needed it, and I will always be grateful for that.
This was an interesting post. This is probably a shallow take but honestly, I feel like the best way to save wealthy people from themselves and people with too much power is to just tax the hell out of them and limit their power, respectively. My biggest problem with specific so-called rich assholes isn't their failure to give money to good causes or needy individuals, it's their enthusiasm for buying politicians to get what they want, which inevitably involves actively fucking over the poor and the marginalised rather than merely ignoring them. You know, folks like the Koch brothers, Mark Zuckerberg, and that Tesla guy (I know his name but it's not like he needs more press) who doesn't seem to give a shit about his employees, at least not the factory-floor level ones.
posted by Bella Donna at 2:00 PM on July 3, 2020 [17 favorites]
I am willing to believe that becoming wealthy changes one's brain in not-great ways, just as poverty does (as noted above). So until a vaccine is available for that, yup, let's just take most of the wealthy folks' money away.
posted by Bella Donna at 2:02 PM on July 3, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 2:02 PM on July 3, 2020 [7 favorites]
Bella Donna, your friend reminds me of the series of articles on Cracked when, for a moment several years back, they stopped being a mindless listicle generator. This article, on the terrible habits we develop in poverty, in particular, the third point, that having been poor, when we suddenly have money, we want to make up for all the times we didn't. You friend's gesture is a beautiful thing, and your continuance of it is admirable. I've tried to do similar things, especially now that, after roughly six years of mostly self inflicted financial difficulty, I seem to be coming out the other side in a much better position than I can honestly figure out why it should have happened to me, and I find myself wanting to go back and be the person spending and helping others.
In that Cracked article, and in my own case, there's more than a little shame in there as a driving cause, but yeah, there's also a "things are good for me now, and when they weren't, someone helped me, so now that I can, I should be the helper" sort of mindset that seems almost diametrically opposed to the mindset discussed in the article here.
posted by Ghidorah at 10:23 AM on July 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
In that Cracked article, and in my own case, there's more than a little shame in there as a driving cause, but yeah, there's also a "things are good for me now, and when they weren't, someone helped me, so now that I can, I should be the helper" sort of mindset that seems almost diametrically opposed to the mindset discussed in the article here.
posted by Ghidorah at 10:23 AM on July 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
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