How dollar stores became magnets for crime and killing
July 2, 2020 2:38 PM Subscribe
"[Dollar] stores are throughout our community, but they have no interest in the community. They’re not giving nothing back. They give nothing back.”
"The stores undercut traditional grocery stores by having few employees, often only three per store, and paying them little. 'While dollar stores sometimes fill a need in cash-strapped communities, growing evidence suggests these stores are not merely a byproduct of economic distress,' the brief reported. 'They’re a cause of it.' . . . . 'The more and more ubiquitous they’ve gotten, they’ve gotten less and less caring,' [the Dayton mayor] said. 'I came to see them as glorified check-cashing and payday lenders for the way they prey off the poor but don’t really care about the poor.'"
Some jurisdictions are imposing moratoria on dollar stores to conduct in-depth studies on their community impact.
Previously, previously.
"The stores undercut traditional grocery stores by having few employees, often only three per store, and paying them little. 'While dollar stores sometimes fill a need in cash-strapped communities, growing evidence suggests these stores are not merely a byproduct of economic distress,' the brief reported. 'They’re a cause of it.' . . . . 'The more and more ubiquitous they’ve gotten, they’ve gotten less and less caring,' [the Dayton mayor] said. 'I came to see them as glorified check-cashing and payday lenders for the way they prey off the poor but don’t really care about the poor.'"
Some jurisdictions are imposing moratoria on dollar stores to conduct in-depth studies on their community impact.
Previously, previously.
"In early May, a worker at a Family Dollar in Flint, Michigan, was fatally shot after refusing entry to a customer without a mask."
-from article.
not quite how it happened but the worker was a security guard.
and this from corp.
"Randy Guiler, Dollar Tree's vice president of investor relations, said the company is "aware of the tragic incident."
"We will continue to cooperate fully with local authorities on their investigation," Guiler said in a statement to CNN. "As always, we are committed to ensuring a safe environment for our associates and customers. Out of respect for the family's privacy, we are not commenting further at this time."
yeah.
posted by clavdivs at 3:06 PM on July 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
-from article.
not quite how it happened but the worker was a security guard.
and this from corp.
"Randy Guiler, Dollar Tree's vice president of investor relations, said the company is "aware of the tragic incident."
"We will continue to cooperate fully with local authorities on their investigation," Guiler said in a statement to CNN. "As always, we are committed to ensuring a safe environment for our associates and customers. Out of respect for the family's privacy, we are not commenting further at this time."
yeah.
posted by clavdivs at 3:06 PM on July 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
While dollar stores sometimes fill a need in cash-strapped communities ...
If they didn't fill a need, no one would patronize them, and they'd go out of business. So this isn't speculative. Dollar stores provide something that their customers can't get elsewhere.
"They prey off the poor but don’t really care about the poor.'"
So it's not enough that Dollar stores meet the the crucial needs of their customers. They have to "care" about them as well. I'd say selling them the goods they want and need is a pretty caring thing to do. And Dollar stores no more "prey" upon the poor than Ben and Jerry's preys upon the hungry. They meet a need and charge a fair price.
Purely subjectively, I find the Dollar General store in the rural community I frequent, to be a jolly kind of place. When people come there, they're happy to be in a modest, unpretentious, well-run store, with a little bit of everything they could want. I'm more of a Whole Foods guy, who thinks that Dollar General sells all too much sugary junk (not to mention tobacco products). But that must be what their customers want. I can still pick up something I can eat there, if I have to.
I just think you've picked the wrong store to demonize.
posted by Modest House at 4:08 PM on July 2, 2020 [16 favorites]
If they didn't fill a need, no one would patronize them, and they'd go out of business. So this isn't speculative. Dollar stores provide something that their customers can't get elsewhere.
"They prey off the poor but don’t really care about the poor.'"
So it's not enough that Dollar stores meet the the crucial needs of their customers. They have to "care" about them as well. I'd say selling them the goods they want and need is a pretty caring thing to do. And Dollar stores no more "prey" upon the poor than Ben and Jerry's preys upon the hungry. They meet a need and charge a fair price.
Purely subjectively, I find the Dollar General store in the rural community I frequent, to be a jolly kind of place. When people come there, they're happy to be in a modest, unpretentious, well-run store, with a little bit of everything they could want. I'm more of a Whole Foods guy, who thinks that Dollar General sells all too much sugary junk (not to mention tobacco products). But that must be what their customers want. I can still pick up something I can eat there, if I have to.
I just think you've picked the wrong store to demonize.
posted by Modest House at 4:08 PM on July 2, 2020 [16 favorites]
At least in the US 7-11 are franchised so the store owner is usually onsite and working there. They also don’t tend to be in as run down of places as Dollar stores.
posted by jmauro at 4:12 PM on July 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by jmauro at 4:12 PM on July 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
Do 7/11s have a similar dynamic?
I'd be shocked if most of the 7/11s I've walked into during the last decade weren't only staffed by people related by blood to the other people working at the store. Definitely the half dozen I'd consider "local", as in I visited enough to see all the possible employees.
Although, working at the family's liquor/cigarette store has its disadvantages, as a couple of my Lebanese childhood friends can tell you. Can't call in sick to your dad, and labor laws don't really exist for 15 year olds during the summer.
posted by sideshow at 4:28 PM on July 2, 2020 [9 favorites]
I'd be shocked if most of the 7/11s I've walked into during the last decade weren't only staffed by people related by blood to the other people working at the store. Definitely the half dozen I'd consider "local", as in I visited enough to see all the possible employees.
Although, working at the family's liquor/cigarette store has its disadvantages, as a couple of my Lebanese childhood friends can tell you. Can't call in sick to your dad, and labor laws don't really exist for 15 year olds during the summer.
posted by sideshow at 4:28 PM on July 2, 2020 [9 favorites]
I just think you've picked the wrong store to demonize.
At least in this region, Dollar General was one of the places that unwired kids were going to pick up their assignment packets in their communities when schools closed. I don't want to turn this into dollar store hagiography, but having seen a bit of how the business runs (especially the supply chain end), it's pretty staggering. One clue - if you are expecting the corp HQ to be chock-a-block and down-market-ish like their stores, I can assure you that this is not the case. Not even close.
posted by jquinby at 4:34 PM on July 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
At least in this region, Dollar General was one of the places that unwired kids were going to pick up their assignment packets in their communities when schools closed. I don't want to turn this into dollar store hagiography, but having seen a bit of how the business runs (especially the supply chain end), it's pretty staggering. One clue - if you are expecting the corp HQ to be chock-a-block and down-market-ish like their stores, I can assure you that this is not the case. Not even close.
posted by jquinby at 4:34 PM on July 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, this article is specifically about the effects in poor urban neighborhoods so please don't steer away from that.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 4:41 PM on July 2, 2020 [12 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 4:41 PM on July 2, 2020 [12 favorites]
It seems like half of this is the old story of large firms displacing small and locally-owned businesses; Dollar General is owned by Goldman Sachs and Citigroup Private Equity, so the profits are not staying in the communities in which they are housed. The other half stems from the precariousness of hourly labor and the expectations that workers place themselves in dangerous situations or lose their jobs.
I can't answer the question posed by a few people in the article: would locally-owned businesses be subject to less crime and safer to workers and customers alike?
posted by Theiform at 4:46 PM on July 2, 2020 [16 favorites]
I can't answer the question posed by a few people in the article: would locally-owned businesses be subject to less crime and safer to workers and customers alike?
posted by Theiform at 4:46 PM on July 2, 2020 [16 favorites]
Is this the prequel to Snow Crash?
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 4:48 PM on July 2, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 4:48 PM on July 2, 2020 [9 favorites]
So it's not enough that Dollar stores meet the the crucial needs of their customers. They have to "care" about them as well. I'd say selling them the goods they want and need is a pretty caring thing to do. And Dollar stores no more "prey" upon the poor than Ben and Jerry's preys upon the hungry. They meet a need and charge a fair price.
I honestly can't tell if you're trolling. Yes, a business should care about their customers, because the customers are what allow the business to exist. The way, the mechanism, by which their customers' needs is met matters. Imagine if your only option for food was to go to the store and buy cans of tasteless grey sludge, affordably priced. You'd be okay with that? No, of course you wouldn't. Especially if your local sludge store was a cash-first business with no security and minimal staff which caused it to get held up frequently by desperate locals.
You mention your local rural DG, which has very little to do with the stores depicted in this article. "They're not all bad" is the same argument being used about the police and nobody is buying it anymore.
posted by axiom at 5:03 PM on July 2, 2020 [79 favorites]
I honestly can't tell if you're trolling. Yes, a business should care about their customers, because the customers are what allow the business to exist. The way, the mechanism, by which their customers' needs is met matters. Imagine if your only option for food was to go to the store and buy cans of tasteless grey sludge, affordably priced. You'd be okay with that? No, of course you wouldn't. Especially if your local sludge store was a cash-first business with no security and minimal staff which caused it to get held up frequently by desperate locals.
You mention your local rural DG, which has very little to do with the stores depicted in this article. "They're not all bad" is the same argument being used about the police and nobody is buying it anymore.
posted by axiom at 5:03 PM on July 2, 2020 [79 favorites]
This article is mostly about the urban impact of dollar stores. However, as someone who drives through the American Southwest not infrequently, the impact of Dollar General seems to be particularly horrifying. They've made the already deteriorating centers of small towns even worse. And they sell crappy merchandise for premium prices. Way over One Dollar. Their impact on what people eat is even worse, when there is no other place to buy food.
posted by kozad at 5:14 PM on July 2, 2020 [13 favorites]
posted by kozad at 5:14 PM on July 2, 2020 [13 favorites]
It's interesting to read about some municipalities trying to strike agreements with the dollar stores so that grocery stores that sell real, non-junk food, can move in. I'd guess that 60-70% of what an average latte grocery store sells is fat and sugar, which means that a dollar store (which sells 90% fat and sugar) could prevent a neighborhood from getting access to vegetables and whole grains, as the article says, simultaneously becoming both a solution and a cause for urban food deserts.
posted by Theiform at 5:19 PM on July 2, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by Theiform at 5:19 PM on July 2, 2020 [6 favorites]
From one of the previouslies, this article remains essential for any discussion about whether Dollar General is “just meeting a need.”
posted by chimpsonfilm at 5:47 PM on July 2, 2020 [12 favorites]
posted by chimpsonfilm at 5:47 PM on July 2, 2020 [12 favorites]
From TFA:
"Dollar Tree, which bought Family Dollar in 2015 and has maintained both brands, keeps prices closer to a dollar with a more limited selection — wrapping paper, party supplies — sold to a more middle-class clientele. Unlike Dollar General and Family Dollar, Dollar Tree’s stores tend to be in suburban locations"
So the one "dollar" store which actually keeps prices to $1 is tailored to "middle class" people in "suburban locations."
AKA better deals for richer people. How fucked. Also a brilliantly evil PR move, since white people who patronize their local Dollar Tree are likely to rush to the defense of the dollar store ecosystem since it is really, really easy to confuse Dollar Tree with Dollar General and Family Dollar. Especially since Dollar Tree owns Family Dollar.
posted by grumpybear69 at 5:53 PM on July 2, 2020 [42 favorites]
"Dollar Tree, which bought Family Dollar in 2015 and has maintained both brands, keeps prices closer to a dollar with a more limited selection — wrapping paper, party supplies — sold to a more middle-class clientele. Unlike Dollar General and Family Dollar, Dollar Tree’s stores tend to be in suburban locations"
So the one "dollar" store which actually keeps prices to $1 is tailored to "middle class" people in "suburban locations."
AKA better deals for richer people. How fucked. Also a brilliantly evil PR move, since white people who patronize their local Dollar Tree are likely to rush to the defense of the dollar store ecosystem since it is really, really easy to confuse Dollar Tree with Dollar General and Family Dollar. Especially since Dollar Tree owns Family Dollar.
posted by grumpybear69 at 5:53 PM on July 2, 2020 [42 favorites]
I'm happy when businesses don't "give back" to the community. It makes no sense for me to pay money to a company to give it back to my community later - I'd rather just give my money to the community directly and cut out the middle person (and the tax deduction the middle person gets on it). A cost-efficient company is one that allows me to maximize how much money I can give away - and further, ensures that those who can't afford to give money away get food instead of go hungry.
Criticizing a store for offering a product people want is poorly directed criticism. People are not stupid - either in rural America or in urban communities. If a town perceives a lack of quality grocery selection, they can open their own grocery store and see if it makes economic sense to do so. If a town chooses not to do so and criticizes a store for opening up and getting a wide customer base, then the town is criticizing its own citizenry rather than the town's own lack of leadership.
posted by saeculorum at 6:20 PM on July 2, 2020 [6 favorites]
Criticizing a store for offering a product people want is poorly directed criticism. People are not stupid - either in rural America or in urban communities. If a town perceives a lack of quality grocery selection, they can open their own grocery store and see if it makes economic sense to do so. If a town chooses not to do so and criticizes a store for opening up and getting a wide customer base, then the town is criticizing its own citizenry rather than the town's own lack of leadership.
posted by saeculorum at 6:20 PM on July 2, 2020 [6 favorites]
Is this the prequel to Snow Crash?
I find that to be true for a growing part of America in general.
And, although TFA is about urban neighborhoods, some of the depressed small towns in Iowa that I'd go through on RAGBRAI were very much like some of the more desolated urban neighborhoods that I've seen, albeit generally whiter. The one time that I went into Dollar General during the last RAGBRAI that I went on, I was in search of a couple of bottles of diet soda, which should have been pretty easy--in most convenience stores, they can be found within seconds. In the Dollar General, the soda seemed to be in about four or five different places scattered around the store, and it took me some time to find the kind I wanted (Diet Mountain Dew, nothing really exotic). Something else that I found somewhat alarming: one of the items kept behind the front counter was an assortment of metallic spray paints. Some of you may know that metallic spray paint is preferred by paint huffers for allegedly being a better high; there was a mugshot of someone with gold spray paint around his mouth that was a meme many years back.Especially as I was on my way to an AA meeting, that made me all kinds of sad.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:27 PM on July 2, 2020 [6 favorites]
I find that to be true for a growing part of America in general.
And, although TFA is about urban neighborhoods, some of the depressed small towns in Iowa that I'd go through on RAGBRAI were very much like some of the more desolated urban neighborhoods that I've seen, albeit generally whiter. The one time that I went into Dollar General during the last RAGBRAI that I went on, I was in search of a couple of bottles of diet soda, which should have been pretty easy--in most convenience stores, they can be found within seconds. In the Dollar General, the soda seemed to be in about four or five different places scattered around the store, and it took me some time to find the kind I wanted (Diet Mountain Dew, nothing really exotic). Something else that I found somewhat alarming: one of the items kept behind the front counter was an assortment of metallic spray paints. Some of you may know that metallic spray paint is preferred by paint huffers for allegedly being a better high; there was a mugshot of someone with gold spray paint around his mouth that was a meme many years back.Especially as I was on my way to an AA meeting, that made me all kinds of sad.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:27 PM on July 2, 2020 [6 favorites]
The Gun Violence Archive, a website that uses local news reports and law enforcement sources to tally crimes involving firearms, lists more than 200 violent incidents involving guns at Family Dollar or Dollar General stores since the start of 2017,
[...]
The number of incidents can be explained in part by the stores’ ubiquity: There are now more than 16,000 Dollar Generals and nearly 8,000 Family Dollars in the United States
So... over a three and a half year period, twenty four thousand stores logged a total of 200 violent incidents.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:32 PM on July 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
[...]
The number of incidents can be explained in part by the stores’ ubiquity: There are now more than 16,000 Dollar Generals and nearly 8,000 Family Dollars in the United States
So... over a three and a half year period, twenty four thousand stores logged a total of 200 violent incidents.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:32 PM on July 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
Our local Dollar Tree is literally across the street from the Zone 1 police station so as far as I know there there haven't been too many hold-ups.
posted by octothorpe at 6:36 PM on July 2, 2020
posted by octothorpe at 6:36 PM on July 2, 2020
Report: Dollar Stores Are Targeting Struggling Urban Neighborhoods and Small Towns. One Community Is Showing How to Fight Back (Institute for Local Self-Reliance, December 6, 2018); Maps Show Alarming Pattern of Dollar Stores’ Spread in U.S. Cities (Institute for Local Self-Reliance, February 20, 2019) [ILSR is a nonprofit working toward sustainable community development.]
better deals for richer people
Dollar General has a new strategy to win wealthier shoppers (CNN, July 11, 2019) [...] Dollar General is also adding produce sections, healthier snacks and a new private-label cosmetics brand to thousands of stores to woo shoppers. Dollar General recently struck partnerships with FedEx (FDX) for package drop-offs and pickups and Western Union (WU) for wire transfers in stores.
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:49 PM on July 2, 2020 [5 favorites]
better deals for richer people
Dollar General has a new strategy to win wealthier shoppers (CNN, July 11, 2019) [...] Dollar General is also adding produce sections, healthier snacks and a new private-label cosmetics brand to thousands of stores to woo shoppers. Dollar General recently struck partnerships with FedEx (FDX) for package drop-offs and pickups and Western Union (WU) for wire transfers in stores.
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:49 PM on July 2, 2020 [5 favorites]
> The stores undercut traditional grocery stores by having few employees, often only three per store, and paying them little
I didn't get the impression that owning a corner store or bodega was a front row ticket to the upper class. Can't imagine working for one would be any different. But I guess Wal-Mart started out as a Walton's Five and Dime Store (the dollar store of yesteryear, after inflation).
I'm really curious about the repeated assertion that dollar stores cause poverty. It seems like it would be impossible to disentangle the correlation found from any of dozens of confounding variables, let alone determine the direction of causality.
> [Folks, this article is specifically about the effect in poor urban neighborhoods so please don't steer away from that.]
Is DeKalb County, the subject of the "some jurisdictions" article considered urban now? The other article mentioned by OP focuses on the ban DeKalb placed. Wikipedia describes DeKalb as suburban and the second most affulent black majority county in the nation. Wikipedia also mentions Kroger's regional offices as one of the biggest employers in the county.
By "urban" I think you just mean black neighborhoods?
> So the one "dollar" store which actually keeps prices to $1 is tailored to "middle class" people in "suburban locations." AKA better deals for richer people.
I wouldn't exactly describe it as that; a decade ago, before the foreclosure, my mother was shopping at Dollar Tree regularly, and they're basically more expensive per unit than WalMart. The depressing, rational reason to shop there because you don't have the cash to buy in the quantities a grocery store offers; the depressing, irrational reason to shop there is because you don't realize the sticker prices are 5 cents better because you're getting 10 percent less.
posted by pwnguin at 7:19 PM on July 2, 2020 [5 favorites]
I didn't get the impression that owning a corner store or bodega was a front row ticket to the upper class. Can't imagine working for one would be any different. But I guess Wal-Mart started out as a Walton's Five and Dime Store (the dollar store of yesteryear, after inflation).
I'm really curious about the repeated assertion that dollar stores cause poverty. It seems like it would be impossible to disentangle the correlation found from any of dozens of confounding variables, let alone determine the direction of causality.
> [Folks, this article is specifically about the effect in poor urban neighborhoods so please don't steer away from that.]
Is DeKalb County, the subject of the "some jurisdictions" article considered urban now? The other article mentioned by OP focuses on the ban DeKalb placed. Wikipedia describes DeKalb as suburban and the second most affulent black majority county in the nation. Wikipedia also mentions Kroger's regional offices as one of the biggest employers in the county.
By "urban" I think you just mean black neighborhoods?
> So the one "dollar" store which actually keeps prices to $1 is tailored to "middle class" people in "suburban locations." AKA better deals for richer people.
I wouldn't exactly describe it as that; a decade ago, before the foreclosure, my mother was shopping at Dollar Tree regularly, and they're basically more expensive per unit than WalMart. The depressing, rational reason to shop there because you don't have the cash to buy in the quantities a grocery store offers; the depressing, irrational reason to shop there is because you don't realize the sticker prices are 5 cents better because you're getting 10 percent less.
posted by pwnguin at 7:19 PM on July 2, 2020 [5 favorites]
Is this the prequel to Snow Crash?
posted by snow save alive nothing that breatheth
Bless you for this.
posted by mecran01 at 7:50 PM on July 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by snow save alive nothing that breatheth
Bless you for this.
posted by mecran01 at 7:50 PM on July 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
Yes, a business should care about their customers, because the customers are what allow the business to exist.
Corporations care about one thing. It is not customers; it's their money. Expecting a corporation to care about people is completely wishful thinking.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 8:22 PM on July 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
Corporations care about one thing. It is not customers; it's their money. Expecting a corporation to care about people is completely wishful thinking.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 8:22 PM on July 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
People are not stupid - either in rural America or in urban communities. If a town perceives a lack of quality grocery selection, they can open their own grocery store and see if it makes economic sense to do so.
This argument ignores the large number of barriers that people in impoverished communities face in starting a business, gaining access to start-up capital, building relationships with supply chains, establishing a customer and employee base -- and competing against large corporations like these dollar stores that will take all the customer traffic for candy and pop and other junk food. If the hand of the market was all that was needed, then food access due to living in food deserts would not even be a topic of discussion.
I'm happy when businesses don't "give back" to the community. It makes no sense for me to pay money to a company to give it back to my community later
What's being discussed in the article isn't a "give 1% of profits to x nonprofit", it's ownership by community members who are personally invested in the well-being and success of their employees and neighbors and who will go on to invest or spend the money they make, instead of Goldman Sachs Private Equity Firm, back into other projects and enterprises in that community.
posted by Theiform at 8:41 PM on July 2, 2020 [34 favorites]
This argument ignores the large number of barriers that people in impoverished communities face in starting a business, gaining access to start-up capital, building relationships with supply chains, establishing a customer and employee base -- and competing against large corporations like these dollar stores that will take all the customer traffic for candy and pop and other junk food. If the hand of the market was all that was needed, then food access due to living in food deserts would not even be a topic of discussion.
I'm happy when businesses don't "give back" to the community. It makes no sense for me to pay money to a company to give it back to my community later
What's being discussed in the article isn't a "give 1% of profits to x nonprofit", it's ownership by community members who are personally invested in the well-being and success of their employees and neighbors and who will go on to invest or spend the money they make, instead of Goldman Sachs Private Equity Firm, back into other projects and enterprises in that community.
posted by Theiform at 8:41 PM on July 2, 2020 [34 favorites]
And the Dollar stores can buy in bulk, for less, then distribute to their stores, undercutting the local store, as mentioned in one of the articles.
posted by Windopaene at 8:43 PM on July 2, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 8:43 PM on July 2, 2020 [9 favorites]
>I'm really curious about the repeated assertion that dollar stores cause poverty. It seems like it would be impossible to disentangle the correlation found from any of dozens of confounding variables, let alone determine the direction of causality.
this is a fair question, are Walmarts and Payday/Title loan stores actively impoverishing localities or just a symptom of deeper imbalances...
Economics fails to follow the money, instead focusing on the micro truisms while failing to consider the deadly macro implications that build up over time.
All economies are local and have a trade balance that can be totaled up with enough data.
EVERY transaction that pulls money out of an economy impoverishes it.
No doubt a dollar store is a more efficient retail space than a mom & pop, but that it is not necessarily enriching the population -- it'd be more efficient if every restaurant in your county were a Taco Bell, but I doubt you'd find this particular race-to-the-bottom a rise in your standard of living.
Every dollar saved in sketchy retail will get beaten out of the saver via higher housing rents eventually, that's how our economy has been structured to operate, and housing rents are the main flow of money out of any locality.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 10:06 PM on July 2, 2020 [10 favorites]
this is a fair question, are Walmarts and Payday/Title loan stores actively impoverishing localities or just a symptom of deeper imbalances...
Economics fails to follow the money, instead focusing on the micro truisms while failing to consider the deadly macro implications that build up over time.
All economies are local and have a trade balance that can be totaled up with enough data.
EVERY transaction that pulls money out of an economy impoverishes it.
No doubt a dollar store is a more efficient retail space than a mom & pop, but that it is not necessarily enriching the population -- it'd be more efficient if every restaurant in your county were a Taco Bell, but I doubt you'd find this particular race-to-the-bottom a rise in your standard of living.
Every dollar saved in sketchy retail will get beaten out of the saver via higher housing rents eventually, that's how our economy has been structured to operate, and housing rents are the main flow of money out of any locality.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 10:06 PM on July 2, 2020 [10 favorites]
Corporations care about one thing. It is not customers; it's their money. Expecting a corporation to care about people is completely wishful thinking.
I agree corporations really care about money, but even putting aside a larger discussion of whether that should be how we organize companies and the economy, the fact remains money doesn't spend itself. What people think about the behavior of corporations affects their bottom lines, and how they treat people and issues absolutely matters, ask Unilever and Coca-Cola and Facebook, or Nike and the Washington NFL team, to pick two recent examples.
posted by axiom at 10:17 PM on July 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
I agree corporations really care about money, but even putting aside a larger discussion of whether that should be how we organize companies and the economy, the fact remains money doesn't spend itself. What people think about the behavior of corporations affects their bottom lines, and how they treat people and issues absolutely matters, ask Unilever and Coca-Cola and Facebook, or Nike and the Washington NFL team, to pick two recent examples.
posted by axiom at 10:17 PM on July 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
No doubt a dollar store is a more efficient retail space than a mom & pop, but that it is not necessarily enriching the population
Sadly though for many urban areas where most big retailers won't go, "mom and pop" stores are often no better at looking after the community, save for maybe keeping some of the money in a nearish local economy. I've known some owners of these kinds of stores, shopped at a goodly amount of them, and used to have family connections to people who provided inventory for them. The people who run the stores aren't bad people or anything but their focus usually isn't on the community but on making a profit just like other businesses.
Given how important the differences between neighborhoods can be in bigger cities, where the owners live doesn't necessarily match where they operate their business, some that do basically live in the store and operate it as a family in order to cut out all additional labor costs until they can buy stores at other locations.
Check the prices and expiration dates of their merchandise and see if they are concerned about the local neighborhood, many I've been to clearly do not see that as their major concern, they're just in a perceived higher risk store location because the lack of competition allows for higher mark ups for customers who don't have alternatives. Most aren't there out of the goodness of their hearts, although I'm sure there are exceptions as individually owned stores will vary more than those of a single corporation.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:50 PM on July 2, 2020 [8 favorites]
Sadly though for many urban areas where most big retailers won't go, "mom and pop" stores are often no better at looking after the community, save for maybe keeping some of the money in a nearish local economy. I've known some owners of these kinds of stores, shopped at a goodly amount of them, and used to have family connections to people who provided inventory for them. The people who run the stores aren't bad people or anything but their focus usually isn't on the community but on making a profit just like other businesses.
Given how important the differences between neighborhoods can be in bigger cities, where the owners live doesn't necessarily match where they operate their business, some that do basically live in the store and operate it as a family in order to cut out all additional labor costs until they can buy stores at other locations.
Check the prices and expiration dates of their merchandise and see if they are concerned about the local neighborhood, many I've been to clearly do not see that as their major concern, they're just in a perceived higher risk store location because the lack of competition allows for higher mark ups for customers who don't have alternatives. Most aren't there out of the goodness of their hearts, although I'm sure there are exceptions as individually owned stores will vary more than those of a single corporation.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:50 PM on July 2, 2020 [8 favorites]
for Pete's sake, analgesics are shelved in a buzzer traped shelf.
and what law prevents 50 or 500 Tante Emma Ladens from buying in bulk like our co-op ancestors.
buy a 2 litre of soda... yeah, tastes like it fell off the truck. In this case the corporation is the middleman™ with little wage incentive. About the only thing they can get in bulk is insurance.
posted by clavdivs at 11:34 PM on July 2, 2020
and what law prevents 50 or 500 Tante Emma Ladens from buying in bulk like our co-op ancestors.
buy a 2 litre of soda... yeah, tastes like it fell off the truck. In this case the corporation is the middleman™ with little wage incentive. About the only thing they can get in bulk is insurance.
posted by clavdivs at 11:34 PM on July 2, 2020
I'd say selling them the goods they want and need is a pretty caring thing to do.
I don't see how dumping artificially cheap, corn syrup-based and other processed goods on people who mostly don't have alternative options is caring. That seems like exploitation to me.
Honestly, we have a federal government that bails out corn, soy, and other agribusiness to buy processed goods, while people can't buy healthy fruits and veggies. This is pretty much the business school definition of monopolies owning captive markets.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:47 AM on July 3, 2020 [13 favorites]
I don't see how dumping artificially cheap, corn syrup-based and other processed goods on people who mostly don't have alternative options is caring. That seems like exploitation to me.
Honestly, we have a federal government that bails out corn, soy, and other agribusiness to buy processed goods, while people can't buy healthy fruits and veggies. This is pretty much the business school definition of monopolies owning captive markets.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:47 AM on July 3, 2020 [13 favorites]
Omission of The 99 Cent Store seemed odd to me, it’s by far the biggest dollar chain around here.
Are they equally terrible?
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:51 AM on July 3, 2020
Are they equally terrible?
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:51 AM on July 3, 2020
Something that it seems like a lot of Metafilter comments miss is that in poor communities it isn't all rah, rah, socialism, there is a strong contingent of people who are hard core "business is business" capitalists, perhaps even more deeply invested in the importance of money than in some better off communities because that is seen as both the way out and as defining the American system of importance in ways that only someone on the bottom might see it.
It isn't that erases the other concerns over equality, policing, and the vast panoply of social concerns that hit poor communities, but it can lead to a sense of politics being a sport for the rich they can't afford and lead some to embrace making money as their central focus, by whatever means they can do so. For some that leads to off the books exchanges, like dealing drugs or running some sort of hustle, but for others, it means embracing small business capitalism in hopes of moving up in class and market to a higher status. That's the ideal many immigrants embrace, having come to the US in hopes of finding a better path to financial success through hard work, which can sometimes place them at odds with social welfare concerns for seeing it as a kind of competition against their efforts.
This is all part of the reason why politics at this level is so disconnected from politics as practiced in DC or even state governments as the concerns and competing interests are not felt in anything like the same way as they are among the better off. Dollar Stores offer a chance to purchase things that wouldn't otherwise be as readily available for some areas or at lower prices than the local stores, which is important to people without much money, but they also may not be seen as part of the community in the same way as stores where one knows the people who own and operate it, the tension between those two things exists, but the weight of either is variable depending on need. People would be happier with both, affordability and community, but that is rarely an option because of how the US form of capitalism works.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:05 AM on July 3, 2020 [3 favorites]
It isn't that erases the other concerns over equality, policing, and the vast panoply of social concerns that hit poor communities, but it can lead to a sense of politics being a sport for the rich they can't afford and lead some to embrace making money as their central focus, by whatever means they can do so. For some that leads to off the books exchanges, like dealing drugs or running some sort of hustle, but for others, it means embracing small business capitalism in hopes of moving up in class and market to a higher status. That's the ideal many immigrants embrace, having come to the US in hopes of finding a better path to financial success through hard work, which can sometimes place them at odds with social welfare concerns for seeing it as a kind of competition against their efforts.
This is all part of the reason why politics at this level is so disconnected from politics as practiced in DC or even state governments as the concerns and competing interests are not felt in anything like the same way as they are among the better off. Dollar Stores offer a chance to purchase things that wouldn't otherwise be as readily available for some areas or at lower prices than the local stores, which is important to people without much money, but they also may not be seen as part of the community in the same way as stores where one knows the people who own and operate it, the tension between those two things exists, but the weight of either is variable depending on need. People would be happier with both, affordability and community, but that is rarely an option because of how the US form of capitalism works.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:05 AM on July 3, 2020 [3 favorites]
They also don’t tend to be in as run down of places as Dollar stores.
That's not been my experience.
posted by readyfreddy at 3:36 AM on July 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
That's not been my experience.
posted by readyfreddy at 3:36 AM on July 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
Are these different than Dollarama in Canada? Because we have quite a few of those and they're not shabby, seem to be well run, the prices fair to excellent. They're invaluable for the poorer communities here. I mean if I need a shower curtain liner I can pay like $10 at Walmart / Canadian tire or $1.50 at Dollarama? It's going to get moldy in six months no matter what. Or, you know, dozens of other fungible necessities like pens or sponges or keyrings or canvas panels or cat toys or whatever that are going to be made in China either way but will be marked up 500% or just 50%? Also the gluten free rice crackers and rice cakes are half the price of other places and the exact same product. The employees don't turn over very often either so the job must not be terrible. But then in Canada everyone has healthcare and the minimum wage isn't totally in the shitter (it's just hovering on the edge).
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:31 AM on July 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:31 AM on July 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
Alright. I've done a fair amount of work in retail strategy and understanding the business model of dollar stores is extremely important to me.
Dollar stores do not exist everywhere - they exist where they can fill a niche and where they can steal market share. I use the presence as a leading indicator of surrounding economic health, and the expansion as an indicator of economic instability. I shit you not: if dollar stores are expanding there presence where you are, your communities 3-5 year prospectus just got a little bleaker.
How does this work, and why is this the case? Dollar stores rely on extracting *every* available dollar from their customers at transaction time; they erode a consumer's ability to plan, and they put a customer in a cycle which increases their dependency on the dollar store. Holy shit! that's a lot of burden to put on a bottle of shampoo that costs a dollar - and that seems nuts at face value!
Let's say you have $10 (plus tax-ish) in your pocket. In a traditional grocery store you're going to have to pick and choose carefully to spend it. More than likely you'll walk away with 2-3 items, possibly some of which would be milk, bread, and some sort of spread (peanut butter, tuna, etc). That loaf of bread will stretch for a few additional meals, and you'll slowly mix and match additional spreads and nutrients - canned soups and veggies, meaning that your money is 100% focused on dietary intake and the give and take forced on someone means planning and reusing to extend each purchase. Compound on that lose change, and while it isn't a lot - a customer has an ability to save a small portion for either additional supplement or for planning a reward
Now let's take that same $10 (pus tax-ish) at the dollar store. You are going to walk away with 10 items. 10 > 3 - so you must have done better! Except, all your items were designed to give you the absolute minimum acceptable amount of product that could possibly be given for a dollar. This means that the product is astronomically high for $ per ounce comparative to the same product in a grocery store. That can of tuna is now a single serving of tuna, the jar of peanut butter is now 6 ounces instead of 16. Food gets smaller, and more shelf stable. Fresh is confined to american cheese singles and quarts of milk...and if it says 'Kraft' instead of generic, there are 6 slices instead of 8 in the packaging. But you've got 10 items! You've collected a veritable feast! You deserve better. So let's trade out that 10th item that you don't really like and get a candy bar instead. Oh and you don't need two packages of tuna, so you can get the trial size bottle of Tresemme instead... So we've gone from 10 items of food, down to 8 while 'rewarding' our self and buying maybe two day's worth of shampoo for 250% markup. The dollar store took every dollar you had - there is nothing residual.
At the dollar store the customer got 10 items that they were ready to consume immediately, and they were packaged for individual consumption - no planning or preparing necessary. Delivery of goods to customer were provided on time at time - you know, how toilet paper and hand sanitizer were shipped and prepared during the early phases of a pandemic - meaning that you are at a daily risk of a supply chain interruption. Goods at a dollar store are given a 'parity' in packaging - you can see exactly how far your dollar will go, but the value comparison is removed. you can't discount a dollar store. Questionable goods are sold alongside brand names in a dollar store with the only indication that there may be a health risk or quality risk that you may ask your self whether you are getting too much value.
So yes. You can go in with $10 and every time you will spend your full $10. You will get less, you will have to come back and repeat the cycle, moving a greater share of money from you to the store over the same period of time. And while you get the value, you will be eliminating the need to stock as much at the grocery store you used to go to - slowly eliminating staff there, who will now have to shop at the dollar store - while they too try to over-stretch their unemployment and similar assistance...
Dollar stores are the 8th plague.
posted by Nanukthedog at 7:04 AM on July 3, 2020 [84 favorites]
Dollar stores do not exist everywhere - they exist where they can fill a niche and where they can steal market share. I use the presence as a leading indicator of surrounding economic health, and the expansion as an indicator of economic instability. I shit you not: if dollar stores are expanding there presence where you are, your communities 3-5 year prospectus just got a little bleaker.
How does this work, and why is this the case? Dollar stores rely on extracting *every* available dollar from their customers at transaction time; they erode a consumer's ability to plan, and they put a customer in a cycle which increases their dependency on the dollar store. Holy shit! that's a lot of burden to put on a bottle of shampoo that costs a dollar - and that seems nuts at face value!
Let's say you have $10 (plus tax-ish) in your pocket. In a traditional grocery store you're going to have to pick and choose carefully to spend it. More than likely you'll walk away with 2-3 items, possibly some of which would be milk, bread, and some sort of spread (peanut butter, tuna, etc). That loaf of bread will stretch for a few additional meals, and you'll slowly mix and match additional spreads and nutrients - canned soups and veggies, meaning that your money is 100% focused on dietary intake and the give and take forced on someone means planning and reusing to extend each purchase. Compound on that lose change, and while it isn't a lot - a customer has an ability to save a small portion for either additional supplement or for planning a reward
Now let's take that same $10 (pus tax-ish) at the dollar store. You are going to walk away with 10 items. 10 > 3 - so you must have done better! Except, all your items were designed to give you the absolute minimum acceptable amount of product that could possibly be given for a dollar. This means that the product is astronomically high for $ per ounce comparative to the same product in a grocery store. That can of tuna is now a single serving of tuna, the jar of peanut butter is now 6 ounces instead of 16. Food gets smaller, and more shelf stable. Fresh is confined to american cheese singles and quarts of milk...and if it says 'Kraft' instead of generic, there are 6 slices instead of 8 in the packaging. But you've got 10 items! You've collected a veritable feast! You deserve better. So let's trade out that 10th item that you don't really like and get a candy bar instead. Oh and you don't need two packages of tuna, so you can get the trial size bottle of Tresemme instead... So we've gone from 10 items of food, down to 8 while 'rewarding' our self and buying maybe two day's worth of shampoo for 250% markup. The dollar store took every dollar you had - there is nothing residual.
At the dollar store the customer got 10 items that they were ready to consume immediately, and they were packaged for individual consumption - no planning or preparing necessary. Delivery of goods to customer were provided on time at time - you know, how toilet paper and hand sanitizer were shipped and prepared during the early phases of a pandemic - meaning that you are at a daily risk of a supply chain interruption. Goods at a dollar store are given a 'parity' in packaging - you can see exactly how far your dollar will go, but the value comparison is removed. you can't discount a dollar store. Questionable goods are sold alongside brand names in a dollar store with the only indication that there may be a health risk or quality risk that you may ask your self whether you are getting too much value.
So yes. You can go in with $10 and every time you will spend your full $10. You will get less, you will have to come back and repeat the cycle, moving a greater share of money from you to the store over the same period of time. And while you get the value, you will be eliminating the need to stock as much at the grocery store you used to go to - slowly eliminating staff there, who will now have to shop at the dollar store - while they too try to over-stretch their unemployment and similar assistance...
Dollar stores are the 8th plague.
posted by Nanukthedog at 7:04 AM on July 3, 2020 [84 favorites]
Are these different than Dollarama in Canada?
YES!
For starters, dollar stores in Canada have a higher quality of goods sold in them.
Also, in a moment of self shame - back in 2000, on a trip to Canada I explicitly went to the dollar store because it was a Canadian Dollar store and that (at the time) meant it was a $0.67 store. When I walked in - I was gobsmacked with how much better the product was that was sold at the store - and *that* was repeated again and again at various dollar stores in Canada. Canadians have a higher minimum standard of quality.
Also, I am sorry for 2000's me.
posted by Nanukthedog at 7:15 AM on July 3, 2020 [6 favorites]
YES!
For starters, dollar stores in Canada have a higher quality of goods sold in them.
Also, in a moment of self shame - back in 2000, on a trip to Canada I explicitly went to the dollar store because it was a Canadian Dollar store and that (at the time) meant it was a $0.67 store. When I walked in - I was gobsmacked with how much better the product was that was sold at the store - and *that* was repeated again and again at various dollar stores in Canada. Canadians have a higher minimum standard of quality.
Also, I am sorry for 2000's me.
posted by Nanukthedog at 7:15 AM on July 3, 2020 [6 favorites]
Are these different than Dollarama in Canada?
One phenomenon we have in urban Canada is the mom-and-pop dollar store. Small, unfranchised, owner-operated. They don't sell food at all. Think general store for low-end household goods, the place to go if you need a plunger or a stopper for your sink, a pride flag or a cheap notebook. I can't think of any business more of the community.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 8:43 AM on July 3, 2020 [3 favorites]
One phenomenon we have in urban Canada is the mom-and-pop dollar store. Small, unfranchised, owner-operated. They don't sell food at all. Think general store for low-end household goods, the place to go if you need a plunger or a stopper for your sink, a pride flag or a cheap notebook. I can't think of any business more of the community.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 8:43 AM on July 3, 2020 [3 favorites]
And while you get the value, you will be eliminating the need to stock as much at the grocery store you used to go to - slowly eliminating staff there, who will now have to shop at the dollar store
I've no argument for most of what was said, but it does tend to ignore the problem of travel in the equation, with Dollar Stores often seeming to set up their business nearer to high density, low wage/no wage housing. Back when I shopped at Dollar Stores, it was because the closest grocery store was two miles away in a "nicer" part of the neighborhood, and since I didn't have a car, that meant walking and having to try and carry groceries in whatever weather presented itself when I needed them. The Dollar Store filled a niche by taking the less desirable location.
That along with the way money often works for those of us who didn't/don't have much means budgeting and need don't match well and the Dollar Store would often be the best way to get a wider variety of things, which is sometimes preferable even knowing there may be less product involved. (That sets aside the family owned convenience store, closer than the supermarket but with even sketchier goods than the Dollar Store at no better prices.)
posted by gusottertrout at 9:07 AM on July 3, 2020 [4 favorites]
I've no argument for most of what was said, but it does tend to ignore the problem of travel in the equation, with Dollar Stores often seeming to set up their business nearer to high density, low wage/no wage housing. Back when I shopped at Dollar Stores, it was because the closest grocery store was two miles away in a "nicer" part of the neighborhood, and since I didn't have a car, that meant walking and having to try and carry groceries in whatever weather presented itself when I needed them. The Dollar Store filled a niche by taking the less desirable location.
That along with the way money often works for those of us who didn't/don't have much means budgeting and need don't match well and the Dollar Store would often be the best way to get a wider variety of things, which is sometimes preferable even knowing there may be less product involved. (That sets aside the family owned convenience store, closer than the supermarket but with even sketchier goods than the Dollar Store at no better prices.)
posted by gusottertrout at 9:07 AM on July 3, 2020 [4 favorites]
I’m really disheartened to see the reductionist “they’re just amoral corporations, this is fine! if you don’t like it open your own!” comments here.
These stores are harbingers of ruin in the areas they proliferate.
posted by uberchet at 9:25 AM on July 3, 2020 [18 favorites]
These stores are harbingers of ruin in the areas they proliferate.
posted by uberchet at 9:25 AM on July 3, 2020 [18 favorites]
Nanukthedog's analysis above is great, and especially the bit about the temptation to treat yourself reminds me a lot of this part from Orwell's The Road to Wigan Pier:
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:30 AM on July 3, 2020 [22 favorites]
And the peculiar evil is this, that the less money you have, the less inclined you feel to spend it on wholesome food. A millionaire may enjoy breakfasting off orange juice and Ryvita biscuits; an unemployed man doesn’t. Here the tendency of which I spoke at the end of the last chapter comes into play. When you are unemployed, which is to say when you are underfed, harassed, bored, and miserable, you don’t want to eat dull wholesome food. You want something a little bit ’tasty’. There is always some cheaply pleasant thing to tempt you. Let’s have three pennorth of chips! Run out and buy us a twopenny ice-cream! Put the kettle on and we’ll all have a nice cup of tea! That is how your mind works when you are at the P.A.C. level. White bread-and-marg and sugared tea don’t nourish you to any extent, but they are nicer (at least most people think so) than brown bread-and-dripping and cold water. Unemployment is an endless misery that has got to be constantly palliated, and especially with tea, the English-man’s opium. A cup of tea or even an aspirin is much better as a temporary stimulant than a crust of brown bread.When I was in that income bracket, and I went to the bakery outlet store, sometimes I got whole-wheat bread, but usually I bought day-old donuts, because that and library books were about the only reliable pleasures that I had at the time.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:30 AM on July 3, 2020 [22 favorites]
Oh, it just occurred to me that talking of ruin for a neighborhood might well mean a place where lots of poor people will be moving in. So maybe I was talking about the same areas post "ruin".
posted by gusottertrout at 9:35 AM on July 3, 2020
posted by gusottertrout at 9:35 AM on July 3, 2020
The earlier guardian article lays out how the corporate dollar stores do indeed impoverish the communities they enter via negotiated tax breaks (loss of revenue for the municipality) and when they undersell the local businesses, those struggle and possibly close (even more loss of revenue for the municipality!).
I do have a strong affection for the mom and pop neighborhood dollar stores, at least in Los Angeles. For me they are places I can walk to and find simple household supplies. My favorite one (now long gone thanks to gentrification) also sold a variety of small household appliances. I always had the sense these store owners try to stock what local customers want.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 9:38 AM on July 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
I do have a strong affection for the mom and pop neighborhood dollar stores, at least in Los Angeles. For me they are places I can walk to and find simple household supplies. My favorite one (now long gone thanks to gentrification) also sold a variety of small household appliances. I always had the sense these store owners try to stock what local customers want.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 9:38 AM on July 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
I’m really disheartened to see the reductionist “they’re just amoral corporations, this is fine! if you don’t like it open your own!” comments here.
Correspondingly, I'm really disheartened to see comments that suggest:
A corporation that negotiates a tax break that causes loss of revenue for the municipality is at fault for that loss of revenue? Who in the world do think the corporation is negotiating with to get that tax break? (now it's "cities are too stupid to negotiate with potential businesses, but we should blame businesses who negotiate with those cities instead of the cities themselves")
posted by saeculorum at 9:52 AM on July 3, 2020 [5 favorites]
Correspondingly, I'm really disheartened to see comments that suggest:
- poor people are too stupid to determine what they should buy correctly.
- the choices that poor people make should be regulated so that they don't make stupid choices.
- it's preferred to have unaffordable local stores with cute mom and pop owners instead of affordable stores with out-of-state owners.
- criminals don't cause crime - stores cause crime.
A corporation that negotiates a tax break that causes loss of revenue for the municipality is at fault for that loss of revenue? Who in the world do think the corporation is negotiating with to get that tax break? (now it's "cities are too stupid to negotiate with potential businesses, but we should blame businesses who negotiate with those cities instead of the cities themselves")
posted by saeculorum at 9:52 AM on July 3, 2020 [5 favorites]
The glorification of the small business is such an article of faith in America that even the left holds to it, but in some impoverished communities the relationships between these businesses and the community are... warily symbiotic at best.
posted by Selena777 at 9:59 AM on July 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 9:59 AM on July 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
kanata--yes!!! also it would be great if we could avoid implying people with limited budgets are not "smart" about money when they shop at dollar stores.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 10:28 AM on July 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 10:28 AM on July 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
Saeculorum, did you even read the article? Because it doesn't sound like you did. The article isn't criticizing dollar stores for simply offering low prices. It's criticizing dollar stores for having a business model of placing stores in low-income, high crime areas and then doing absolutely nothing to provide employees and customers with even the minimum protections.
Specifically, dollar store management don't staff the stores with enough employees to deter crime. They don't hire guards to protect stores. They don't maintain adequate video systems to help police who investigate crimes at the stores. They encourage letting merchandise pile up in the aisles, which makes it harder for employees and customers to get to safety when a crime is being committed. They encourage blocking windows with large advertisements, which makes it harder for police arriving at a crime in progress to figure out what's going on. They discourage employees from protecting themselves, and when employees do take steps to protect themselves, they're fired. C-suite executives for these companies are aware of all of this and acknowledge that this is the business model for the stores, but don't have a problem with it.
I'm really disheartened to see comments that suggest ... criminals don't cause crime - stores cause crime.
Why are you disheartened to see such comments when the article makes a compelling case for exactly that conclusion? The article supports the theory that the commission of a crime takes more than just a motivated criminal, it also takes the absence of a capable guardian. These stores are neglectful guardians of both employees and customers. You may take the view that the only thing a publicly traded company is responsible for is the bottom line, but that doesn't mean that everyone has to think the same way, or that everyone who does is naive.
There are some who think that businesses are responsible for the safety of their employees and customers, and that taking that responsibility seriously is not only their duty under the social contract but also makes better business sense than the model employed by the dollar stores discussed in the article.
posted by ultraviolet catastrophe at 10:30 AM on July 3, 2020 [24 favorites]
Specifically, dollar store management don't staff the stores with enough employees to deter crime. They don't hire guards to protect stores. They don't maintain adequate video systems to help police who investigate crimes at the stores. They encourage letting merchandise pile up in the aisles, which makes it harder for employees and customers to get to safety when a crime is being committed. They encourage blocking windows with large advertisements, which makes it harder for police arriving at a crime in progress to figure out what's going on. They discourage employees from protecting themselves, and when employees do take steps to protect themselves, they're fired. C-suite executives for these companies are aware of all of this and acknowledge that this is the business model for the stores, but don't have a problem with it.
I'm really disheartened to see comments that suggest ... criminals don't cause crime - stores cause crime.
Why are you disheartened to see such comments when the article makes a compelling case for exactly that conclusion? The article supports the theory that the commission of a crime takes more than just a motivated criminal, it also takes the absence of a capable guardian. These stores are neglectful guardians of both employees and customers. You may take the view that the only thing a publicly traded company is responsible for is the bottom line, but that doesn't mean that everyone has to think the same way, or that everyone who does is naive.
There are some who think that businesses are responsible for the safety of their employees and customers, and that taking that responsibility seriously is not only their duty under the social contract but also makes better business sense than the model employed by the dollar stores discussed in the article.
posted by ultraviolet catastrophe at 10:30 AM on July 3, 2020 [24 favorites]
I'm really disheartened to see comments that suggest:
poor people are too stupid to determine what they should buy correctly.
the choices that poor people make should be regulated so that they don't make stupid choices.
The articles above do not criticize buying decisions. I buy basic pharmaceuticals from the dollar store for $1 instead of $10 from Walmart because aspirin is aspirin.
The issue is the lack of choice that private-equity-owned corporations are creating by crowding out any other businesses in areas where residents can't go anywhere else -- the way that dollar stores may become the only food source available to many impoverished people who lack transportation or other resources to travel miles to a larger grocery store with healthy options, or to frequent a store whose ownership structure is based in their community with a corresponding need to give a damn that their employees don't get shot in a way that a corporation might not.
posted by Theiform at 10:32 AM on July 3, 2020 [8 favorites]
poor people are too stupid to determine what they should buy correctly.
the choices that poor people make should be regulated so that they don't make stupid choices.
The articles above do not criticize buying decisions. I buy basic pharmaceuticals from the dollar store for $1 instead of $10 from Walmart because aspirin is aspirin.
The issue is the lack of choice that private-equity-owned corporations are creating by crowding out any other businesses in areas where residents can't go anywhere else -- the way that dollar stores may become the only food source available to many impoverished people who lack transportation or other resources to travel miles to a larger grocery store with healthy options, or to frequent a store whose ownership structure is based in their community with a corresponding need to give a damn that their employees don't get shot in a way that a corporation might not.
posted by Theiform at 10:32 AM on July 3, 2020 [8 favorites]
Would be great if people would actually RTFA rather than banging on about whatever reductive hobby-horse they're obsessed with.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 10:36 AM on July 3, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by Ahmad Khani at 10:36 AM on July 3, 2020 [8 favorites]
The issue is the lack of choice
Indeed, that is the issue and places where Dollar Stores drive out businesses that either did exist that offered low price options and decent selection within a close range or would be potentially slated to have such services Dollar Stores aren't good, but that isn't really the choice many people face with the Dollar Stores going in where other grocery stores won't go, because of poor people and crime or where the alternatives aren't better, for higher prices, less selection, and not necessarily any more consideration for the neighborhood, employment or greatly improved crime deterrence.
Should Dollar Stores do better? That'd be great, they certainly could afford it, but the sense I get is that the alternative to Dollar Stores is more fantasy or ideal, what low income areas should have, rather than what they would or do actually end up with, which is generally crap no matter how you slice it, since those ruined neighborhoods could hardly expect better.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:46 AM on July 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
Indeed, that is the issue and places where Dollar Stores drive out businesses that either did exist that offered low price options and decent selection within a close range or would be potentially slated to have such services Dollar Stores aren't good, but that isn't really the choice many people face with the Dollar Stores going in where other grocery stores won't go, because of poor people and crime or where the alternatives aren't better, for higher prices, less selection, and not necessarily any more consideration for the neighborhood, employment or greatly improved crime deterrence.
Should Dollar Stores do better? That'd be great, they certainly could afford it, but the sense I get is that the alternative to Dollar Stores is more fantasy or ideal, what low income areas should have, rather than what they would or do actually end up with, which is generally crap no matter how you slice it, since those ruined neighborhoods could hardly expect better.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:46 AM on July 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
The article seems to argue that the chain dollar stores do more harm than good in a community, paying the workers little and putting their lives at risk while those at the top of the corporate chain make shitloads. I agree and think it's shitty. In my limited experience, chain stores in lower income neighborhoods are shit neighbors with large parking lots and grounds they fail to maintain.
I also think it is possible to have non-shitty dollar stores that serve as a neighborhood resource. In my experience those stores are independently run. But there are probably also shit store that are independently run.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 10:55 AM on July 3, 2020 [3 favorites]
I also think it is possible to have non-shitty dollar stores that serve as a neighborhood resource. In my experience those stores are independently run. But there are probably also shit store that are independently run.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 10:55 AM on July 3, 2020 [3 favorites]
I also think it is possible to have non-shitty dollar stores that serve as a neighborhood resource.
I don't. But it would be an interesting experiment to put someone in charge of trying. Take one of these food desert low-income areas and put a basic grocery store with reasonable plan-ahead packaging quantities. Staff it properly, keep it clean, secure, etc. Since it will lose money hand-over-fist at first, take some of that police budget money and just unapologetically prop up the store's losses from the city budget. (Or, a billionaire may want to fund this experiment with no expectation of profit hahahahahaaaaa maybe not)
I think if the goal was to ever achieve profitability, it would devolve back into the dollar store for the reasons nanukthedog explains. But I think it would be a public good that would help people, and might even arrest the downward economic spiral of the neighborhood somewhat. I'd be fine with just subsidizing that indefinitely, but all the conservatives would scream socialism.
posted by ctmf at 12:17 PM on July 3, 2020 [3 favorites]
I don't. But it would be an interesting experiment to put someone in charge of trying. Take one of these food desert low-income areas and put a basic grocery store with reasonable plan-ahead packaging quantities. Staff it properly, keep it clean, secure, etc. Since it will lose money hand-over-fist at first, take some of that police budget money and just unapologetically prop up the store's losses from the city budget. (Or, a billionaire may want to fund this experiment with no expectation of profit hahahahahaaaaa maybe not)
I think if the goal was to ever achieve profitability, it would devolve back into the dollar store for the reasons nanukthedog explains. But I think it would be a public good that would help people, and might even arrest the downward economic spiral of the neighborhood somewhat. I'd be fine with just subsidizing that indefinitely, but all the conservatives would scream socialism.
posted by ctmf at 12:17 PM on July 3, 2020 [3 favorites]
Take one of these food desert low-income areas and put a basic grocery store with reasonable plan-ahead packaging quantities. Staff it properly, keep it clean, secure, etc. Since it will lose money hand-over-fist at first, take some of that police budget money and just unapologetically prop up the store's losses from the city budget.
It's not even that radical of an idea, this is essentially what military commissaries are.
posted by ctmf at 12:26 PM on July 3, 2020 [8 favorites]
It's not even that radical of an idea, this is essentially what military commissaries are.
posted by ctmf at 12:26 PM on July 3, 2020 [8 favorites]
They exist where they are viable as businesses, for the benefit of the owners of those businesses. That's the beginning, and end, of this stupid argument about evil dollar stores.
Believe what you want to believe, I guess, but as has already been pointed out by several posts, not everyone sees it that way. Did you read the article either? Didn't think so. But good job making your dismissive comment anyway. Really added to the discussion.
posted by ultraviolet catastrophe at 12:33 PM on July 3, 2020 [7 favorites]
Believe what you want to believe, I guess, but as has already been pointed out by several posts, not everyone sees it that way. Did you read the article either? Didn't think so. But good job making your dismissive comment anyway. Really added to the discussion.
posted by ultraviolet catastrophe at 12:33 PM on July 3, 2020 [7 favorites]
Retailers aren't allocated on basis of need. Retailers aren't allocated at all. They exist where they are viable as businesses, for the benefit of the owners of those businesses. That's the beginning, and end, of this stupid argument about evil dollar stores.
Not the end of the argument, as demonstrated by T(second)FA where Dekalb County officials put a moratorium on allowing the stores at all. You can state that you disagree, but there are real possibilities for political responses here and it's dismissive to pretend that they don't or can't exist.
posted by Theiform at 12:36 PM on July 3, 2020 [9 favorites]
Not the end of the argument, as demonstrated by T(second)FA where Dekalb County officials put a moratorium on allowing the stores at all. You can state that you disagree, but there are real possibilities for political responses here and it's dismissive to pretend that they don't or can't exist.
posted by Theiform at 12:36 PM on July 3, 2020 [9 favorites]
Astonishing thread.
Dismissing the concerns raised by predominantly Black communities and simply shouting capitalism! diy! move! is racist.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 12:39 PM on July 3, 2020 [21 favorites]
Dismissing the concerns raised by predominantly Black communities and simply shouting capitalism! diy! move! is racist.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 12:39 PM on July 3, 2020 [21 favorites]
One last thing (really, I promise) that bugs me about the article, is the way it sort of suggests that Dollar Stores somehow benefit by encouraging theft, as it seems to suggest things like poorly placed cameras are endemic to the chain rather than just something that occurred at some location, as if buying cameras to film nothing useful makes sense, that I should care whether the store loses goods to theft as if they didn't weigh the cost of security versus loss prevention, and most importantly that it suggests armed cashiers and security guards are a net benefit for the community at a time where concern over violence by alleged authorities is under such intense scrutiny.
The article really needs to look at the bigger picture of how different Dollar Stores operate and their impact on the communities they serve rather than broadly gesturing towards a universal from some very specific incidences. I don't give a damn about Dollar Stores per se, but I'm not going to pretend they are the core problem facing poor communities lacking good options.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:42 PM on July 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
The article really needs to look at the bigger picture of how different Dollar Stores operate and their impact on the communities they serve rather than broadly gesturing towards a universal from some very specific incidences. I don't give a damn about Dollar Stores per se, but I'm not going to pretend they are the core problem facing poor communities lacking good options.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:42 PM on July 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
I spend most of my work week traveling around rural South Carolina and see Dollar General stores everywhere, even at crossroads where there is no habitation, sometimes coexisting with family run convenience stores. They don’t seem to be a crime magnet in those settings. In areas with a little more population one finds Dollar General Markets comparable to typical grocery stores. Dollar General Market
posted by Public Corruption? at 1:11 PM on July 3, 2020
posted by Public Corruption? at 1:11 PM on July 3, 2020
Different dollar chain, but I was reminded of this recent story from Block Club Chicago. Transient local management, distant and disinterested ownership, and a long-term blight on an urban community.
posted by chimpsonfilm at 3:51 PM on July 3, 2020
posted by chimpsonfilm at 3:51 PM on July 3, 2020
So the one "dollar" store which actually keeps prices to $1 is tailored to "middle class" people in "suburban locations."
from my limited perspective, dollar tree seems to cater to poor people in suburban locations
no, not everything is a dollar there
family dollar and dollar general seem to be places to pick up a few items when you don't want to be bothered with a long grocery trip - i don't see them as replacing grocery stores, although it's possible in bigger cities, they've gone into areas where there was a shortage of good stores anyway
i don't think the deals are real good at any of these places but they're not as awful as convenience stores and some groceries in poor neighborhoods
posted by pyramid termite at 5:08 PM on July 3, 2020
from my limited perspective, dollar tree seems to cater to poor people in suburban locations
no, not everything is a dollar there
family dollar and dollar general seem to be places to pick up a few items when you don't want to be bothered with a long grocery trip - i don't see them as replacing grocery stores, although it's possible in bigger cities, they've gone into areas where there was a shortage of good stores anyway
i don't think the deals are real good at any of these places but they're not as awful as convenience stores and some groceries in poor neighborhoods
posted by pyramid termite at 5:08 PM on July 3, 2020
“The likelihood of a crime occurring depends on three elements: a motivated offender, a vulnerable victim, and the absence of a capable guardian,” the sociologist Patrick Sharkey wrote, in “Uneasy Peace,” from 2018.This sent me down a rabbit hole and I ended up buying the book based on this excellent summary.
At the center of Sharkey’s vision for the future is “guardianship,” a concept drawn from criminology to describe individuals and roles responsible for protecting the public space on behalf of the community. Police are one example of guardians, as are neighbors who watch over children playing outside. Paraphrasing Cohen and Felson, Sharkey states that “the likelihood of a crime occurring depends on three elements: a motivated offender, a vulnerable victim, and the absence of a capable guardian” (p. 43).posted by rebent at 6:34 PM on July 3, 2020 [3 favorites]
Sharkey contends that over the course of the “great crime decline,” the concept of guardianship, particularly in hyper-segregated urban areas experiencing concentrated poverty and where violent crime is most common, has narrowed to mean warrior policing. Given the high social costs of this kind of aggressive and militarized policing, and its surprisingly small contribution to reducing violence, Sharkey suggests that a new kind of guardianship is needed, one where neighbors and community have a greater role.
They strike me as similar to an opportunistic plant species. The analogy to me is, say ranch land, like I see in the hill country around here all the time. At some point in the past, the land was cleared, seeded with good grazing grass, & tended, when cattle ranching in the region was profitable. As the price of beef fell & the area became more arid & topsoils consumed or eroded away, a large number of ranchers sold all their cattle & abandoned their land. You can tell how long a pasture or farm here has been abandoned by the stage of growth of the opportunistic species that intrude in the absence of stewardship. The first species to invade the previously cleared pasture land every time is the prickly pear cactus. While essentially still edible, they absorb more than their share of the rainwater & provide poor nutrient quality compared to the amount of labor it takes to harvest, de-thorn & cook them. They’re a starvation crop of last resort.
Dollar Generals are the prickly pear of the retail world. When an urban area is no longer profitable enough for any other chain to survive, they move out & leave behind a food desert, & the Dollar Generals opportunistically move in to fill the void left behind with their inferior product.
posted by Devils Rancher at 6:38 PM on July 3, 2020 [15 favorites]
Dollar Generals are the prickly pear of the retail world. When an urban area is no longer profitable enough for any other chain to survive, they move out & leave behind a food desert, & the Dollar Generals opportunistically move in to fill the void left behind with their inferior product.
posted by Devils Rancher at 6:38 PM on July 3, 2020 [15 favorites]
I wish I had enough Capital to establish a chain of, make $5 profit a month to do the right thing for all communities. But that's a tough road to hoe. Capitalism, and all that.
posted by Windopaene at 8:57 PM on July 3, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 8:57 PM on July 3, 2020 [4 favorites]
"I'd say selling them the goods they want and need is a pretty caring thing to do."
- Martin Shkreli
posted by ominous_paws at 11:45 PM on July 3, 2020 [3 favorites]
- Martin Shkreli
posted by ominous_paws at 11:45 PM on July 3, 2020 [3 favorites]
I shit you not: if dollar stores are expanding there presence where you are, your communities 3-5 year prospectus just got a little bleaker.
I'm still not convinced that dollar stores are anything other than a lagging indicator of dilapidated strip malls, which are themselves indicators of the community surrounding them. The question to my mind is what happens to communities with dilapidated strip malls dollar stores don't go to into. It stands to reason that whatever downward spiral North St Louis has entered would accellerate, not level off.
things like poorly placed cameras are endemic to the chain rather than just something that occurred at some location, as if buying cameras to film nothing useful makes sense, that I should care whether the store loses goods to theft as if they didn't weigh the cost of security versus loss prevention, and most importantly that it suggests armed cashiers and security guards are a net benefit for the community at a time where concern over violence by alleged authorities is under such intense scrutiny.
Honestly, it sounds like a store manager with a side gig of money laundering. You have a substantial cash only clientelle, and it's way easier to hit your numbers if you can cheat. A brief check on google maps indicates there's a 99+ store 600 feet from the Dollar General where Woods was murdered, and Family Dollar 1000 feet further on. Why else would you choose to ignore the basics of running a store when the competition is literally a block away? Why ignore police advice, strategically fuck up camera video, and leave your store a mess? Because it doesn't matter if people come or not.
Since it will lose money hand-over-fist at first, take some of that police budget money and just unapologetically prop up the store's losses from the city budget.
That just sounds like a food bank with extra steps.
posted by pwnguin at 12:50 AM on July 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
I'm still not convinced that dollar stores are anything other than a lagging indicator of dilapidated strip malls, which are themselves indicators of the community surrounding them. The question to my mind is what happens to communities with dilapidated strip malls dollar stores don't go to into. It stands to reason that whatever downward spiral North St Louis has entered would accellerate, not level off.
things like poorly placed cameras are endemic to the chain rather than just something that occurred at some location, as if buying cameras to film nothing useful makes sense, that I should care whether the store loses goods to theft as if they didn't weigh the cost of security versus loss prevention, and most importantly that it suggests armed cashiers and security guards are a net benefit for the community at a time where concern over violence by alleged authorities is under such intense scrutiny.
Honestly, it sounds like a store manager with a side gig of money laundering. You have a substantial cash only clientelle, and it's way easier to hit your numbers if you can cheat. A brief check on google maps indicates there's a 99+ store 600 feet from the Dollar General where Woods was murdered, and Family Dollar 1000 feet further on. Why else would you choose to ignore the basics of running a store when the competition is literally a block away? Why ignore police advice, strategically fuck up camera video, and leave your store a mess? Because it doesn't matter if people come or not.
Since it will lose money hand-over-fist at first, take some of that police budget money and just unapologetically prop up the store's losses from the city budget.
That just sounds like a food bank with extra steps.
posted by pwnguin at 12:50 AM on July 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
I wish I had enough Capital to establish a chain of, make $5 profit a month to do the right thing for all communities. But that's a tough road to hoe. Capitalism, and all that.
You could call it the Five Hundred and One Cent Store — i.e., the 501(c) store.
A benefit corporation grocery chain is actually a pretty neat idea.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:03 AM on July 4, 2020 [9 favorites]
You could call it the Five Hundred and One Cent Store — i.e., the 501(c) store.
A benefit corporation grocery chain is actually a pretty neat idea.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:03 AM on July 4, 2020 [9 favorites]
Mod note: Couple deleted; 2N2222 this is the second time you've come in here with comments that are dismissive of the racist context of the stuff the article describes, please leave this thread alone now.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:21 AM on July 4, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:21 AM on July 4, 2020 [5 favorites]
I live in an urban food desert infected by dollar stores; I have many thoughts and opinions but it doesn’t seem like this thread is really open to exploration. I am not an economist or a retailer, but I am pretty sure that my fellow Detroiters would prefer easy access to clean and well stocked grocery stores, both large and small, and an environment which allows the success of small neighborhood businesses. For some absolutely unknowable reason the state of Michigan and the US government seem to think that only people on the other sides of 8 Mile, Alter and Telegraph want those things. Who could possibly guess what those reasons are?
Anyway TIL that apparently the hill to die on for Metafilter’s Free Marketers is the honor of Dollar General. Did not really expect that when the FPP went up.
posted by skookumsaurus rex at 10:11 AM on July 4, 2020 [21 favorites]
Anyway TIL that apparently the hill to die on for Metafilter’s Free Marketers is the honor of Dollar General. Did not really expect that when the FPP went up.
posted by skookumsaurus rex at 10:11 AM on July 4, 2020 [21 favorites]
From a social justice position, you are absolutely right, there should be clean, affordable, well stocked grocery stores and other small businesses available, I don't think anyone is arguing against that. The conversation seems more to be split over the idea that Dollar Stores are a cause of that not happening, as the article seems to argue, versus Dollar Stores as a symptom of a larger problem, which is the US free market system, racism, and how it treats the poor. From the prospective of what should be, the comparison is between Dollar Stores and something better, while from the perspective of things as they are, its often a comparison between a Dollar Store or nothing.
The "defense" of Dollar Stores is only as preference for that something to nothing, not as support for Dollar Stores over something better and the discussion is split over talking about why there isn't better alternatives as things are and in saying why Dollar Stores aren't adequate. Those two perspectives aren't necessarily at odds, just addressing different aspects of a much larger problem than Dollar Stores alone.
posted by gusottertrout at 11:28 AM on July 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
The "defense" of Dollar Stores is only as preference for that something to nothing, not as support for Dollar Stores over something better and the discussion is split over talking about why there isn't better alternatives as things are and in saying why Dollar Stores aren't adequate. Those two perspectives aren't necessarily at odds, just addressing different aspects of a much larger problem than Dollar Stores alone.
posted by gusottertrout at 11:28 AM on July 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
I am kinda of tired of how any discussion about poor people means some people will stand in judgment of our food choices. Discussions about middle class don't. I'm a poor person. We are amongst you.
posted by kanata at 12:56 PM on July 3 [11 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]
Let me start by saying, my specific comment was largely about choice and about the way that dollar stores explicitly rob people of their choices. My statement was not 'oh no - the unwashed masses can't think for themselves.' My comment was explicitly, this store format seeks to prey off the real challenges someone with less economic advantage has. The alternative narrative, choice, that dollar stores offer *does* have appeal, but the store format seeks to exploit the human psyche in the same vein of Candy Crush. Dollar stores make the case that a roll of toilet paper shouldn't cost $4.00 in Harlem - that is true. A $4.00 roll of toilet paper sold at a local bodega is exploitative for an entirely *different* reason. The problem is with corporations, and in this case the dollar store expansion model. They aren't content with solving social issues, they are concerned with profit. And that means, take that $3.00 differential and torture test out a way to truly under-provide for the same community you just price-protected. Their focus is more on acquisition of new customers, and that means the expansion of dollar stores into middle class is driven by some weird poverty porn - look at how frugal I am! except, someone is getting a plastic piece of crap, and that doubly takes away a slot at the store for something actually worthwhile to the community as well as erodes the highlighting of the sku velocity of various products.
Sku velocity: how quickly you sell a given product. For a store where everything is a dollar price is controlled, and sku velocity is a better indicator of a popular product. So by middle income shoppers buying american flags and glow rings from the dollar store in a suburb, overly inflates the demand and basically decreases the sku choices for urban stores - even if there are differences in planograms. You go from something that likely should have been a drop ship item to a dedicated slot for an urban store.
Once again, to be clear - I am not saying poor people shouldn't have glow rings and american flags and that those choices are bad - I'm saying that the importance of those items is mis-characterized by data, which in turn gives less choice and importance to urban communities.
posted by Nanukthedog at 6:12 PM on July 4, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by kanata at 12:56 PM on July 3 [11 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]
Let me start by saying, my specific comment was largely about choice and about the way that dollar stores explicitly rob people of their choices. My statement was not 'oh no - the unwashed masses can't think for themselves.' My comment was explicitly, this store format seeks to prey off the real challenges someone with less economic advantage has. The alternative narrative, choice, that dollar stores offer *does* have appeal, but the store format seeks to exploit the human psyche in the same vein of Candy Crush. Dollar stores make the case that a roll of toilet paper shouldn't cost $4.00 in Harlem - that is true. A $4.00 roll of toilet paper sold at a local bodega is exploitative for an entirely *different* reason. The problem is with corporations, and in this case the dollar store expansion model. They aren't content with solving social issues, they are concerned with profit. And that means, take that $3.00 differential and torture test out a way to truly under-provide for the same community you just price-protected. Their focus is more on acquisition of new customers, and that means the expansion of dollar stores into middle class is driven by some weird poverty porn - look at how frugal I am! except, someone is getting a plastic piece of crap, and that doubly takes away a slot at the store for something actually worthwhile to the community as well as erodes the highlighting of the sku velocity of various products.
Sku velocity: how quickly you sell a given product. For a store where everything is a dollar price is controlled, and sku velocity is a better indicator of a popular product. So by middle income shoppers buying american flags and glow rings from the dollar store in a suburb, overly inflates the demand and basically decreases the sku choices for urban stores - even if there are differences in planograms. You go from something that likely should have been a drop ship item to a dedicated slot for an urban store.
Once again, to be clear - I am not saying poor people shouldn't have glow rings and american flags and that those choices are bad - I'm saying that the importance of those items is mis-characterized by data, which in turn gives less choice and importance to urban communities.
posted by Nanukthedog at 6:12 PM on July 4, 2020 [10 favorites]
But it would be an interesting experiment to put someone in charge of trying. Take one of these food desert low-income areas and put a basic grocery store with reasonable plan-ahead packaging quantities. Staff it properly, keep it clean, secure, etc. Since it will lose money hand-over-fist at first, take some of that police budget money and just unapologetically prop up the store's losses from the city budget. (Or, a billionaire may want to fund this experiment with no expectation of profit hahahahahaaaaa maybe not)
Tulsa tried something like this experiment just before the urban dollar store became ubiquitous. First they paid Albertson's to build a store in North Tulsa, as that part of the city hadn't had a grocery store for at least a decade. It closed when Albertson's was snatched up by SuperValu and closed all their stores in the area because unions. The company that purchased most of their stores, predictably, didn't want that one, so it stayed closed until Tulsa paid a local businessman to open a new grocery in the space. It muddled along for a couple of years, closing again for the final time (that I know of, anyway, I moved away some years ago) after Dollar General and Family Dollar sniped all their customers during their boom years during/after the financial crisis.
Despite much community activism against the dollar stores they captured enough customers, probably largely because of lack of transportation, that a full service grocery simply couldn't make money. It's a pretty low margin business, after all.
Back when chain dollar stores were mainly building in rural areas and exurbs they weren't all that bad. They didn't really compete with grocery stores because the products they sold had little overlap and by the 90s, most of those products were not available elsewhere in the small towns they built stores in. In that sense, they were advantageous for everyone. Their business model changed drastically during the mid to late 2000s.
posted by wierdo at 11:52 PM on July 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
Tulsa tried something like this experiment just before the urban dollar store became ubiquitous. First they paid Albertson's to build a store in North Tulsa, as that part of the city hadn't had a grocery store for at least a decade. It closed when Albertson's was snatched up by SuperValu and closed all their stores in the area because unions. The company that purchased most of their stores, predictably, didn't want that one, so it stayed closed until Tulsa paid a local businessman to open a new grocery in the space. It muddled along for a couple of years, closing again for the final time (that I know of, anyway, I moved away some years ago) after Dollar General and Family Dollar sniped all their customers during their boom years during/after the financial crisis.
Despite much community activism against the dollar stores they captured enough customers, probably largely because of lack of transportation, that a full service grocery simply couldn't make money. It's a pretty low margin business, after all.
Back when chain dollar stores were mainly building in rural areas and exurbs they weren't all that bad. They didn't really compete with grocery stores because the products they sold had little overlap and by the 90s, most of those products were not available elsewhere in the small towns they built stores in. In that sense, they were advantageous for everyone. Their business model changed drastically during the mid to late 2000s.
posted by wierdo at 11:52 PM on July 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
Their focus is more on acquisition of new customers, and that means the expansion of dollar stores into middle class is driven by some weird poverty porn - look at how frugal I am!
did you know there are poor people in the suburbs? apparently not
posted by pyramid termite at 2:33 AM on July 5, 2020 [5 favorites]
did you know there are poor people in the suburbs? apparently not
posted by pyramid termite at 2:33 AM on July 5, 2020 [5 favorites]
Is the idea somewhat mainstream that because people require food for survival, that involvement of the profit motive in its distribution ought to be removed by the state, if possible?
posted by Selena777 at 3:17 PM on July 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Selena777 at 3:17 PM on July 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
The problem is that dollar stores are a large part of why grocery stores have difficulty being profitable or even a break even proposition in places that already are or are likely to become food deserts.
posted by wierdo at 3:22 PM on July 5, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by wierdo at 3:22 PM on July 5, 2020 [3 favorites]
The problem is that dollar stores are a large part of why grocery stores have difficulty being profitable or even a break even proposition in places that already are or are likely to become food deserts.
That’s not how capitalism works.
Oh wait, sorry, yes it is. Carry on.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:20 PM on July 5, 2020
That’s not how capitalism works.
Oh wait, sorry, yes it is. Carry on.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:20 PM on July 5, 2020
This article is about what happened when a low income community of color that hadn't had a grocery store for ~10 years attempted to start a food co-op. The last grocery store closed, not because it didn't make a profit (it did), but because the grocery chain decided it wanted larger profits elsewhere. The abandonment of the community was a choice.
There were a lot of challenges to making the co-op profitable and the expansion of corporate dollar stores was one of them. A Family Dollar in the same strip mall as the coop that opened after the fact negotiated a 50% reduced rent from a city owned property!
Another point made is that by the time the store opened, people with the option to drive elsewhere for groceries had grown accustomed to it. I'm not sure how generalizable everything in the article is, but there's a lot of interesting info in it.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 4:41 PM on July 5, 2020 [10 favorites]
There were a lot of challenges to making the co-op profitable and the expansion of corporate dollar stores was one of them. A Family Dollar in the same strip mall as the coop that opened after the fact negotiated a 50% reduced rent from a city owned property!
Another point made is that by the time the store opened, people with the option to drive elsewhere for groceries had grown accustomed to it. I'm not sure how generalizable everything in the article is, but there's a lot of interesting info in it.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 4:41 PM on July 5, 2020 [10 favorites]
I wrote up a whole comment about the viability of grocery stores (or retail in general) in communities that have seen their population shrink by half or more but I did another check google maps, and now I question the whole 'food desert' designation. There's an ALDI just a quarter mile south of the Dollar General Woods was fatally shot in, much closer than the two Save-A-Lots mentioned in the article.
Should stores be required to staff security guards during store hours? Sure, but it seems like the kind of policy you'd want to apply universally if it's truly required. Are the corner stores in the area less likely to be robbed at gunpoint?
posted by pwnguin at 6:24 PM on July 5, 2020
Should stores be required to staff security guards during store hours? Sure, but it seems like the kind of policy you'd want to apply universally if it's truly required. Are the corner stores in the area less likely to be robbed at gunpoint?
posted by pwnguin at 6:24 PM on July 5, 2020
did you know there are poor people in the suburbs? apparently not
Your glib response notwithstanding, certainly there are poor people everywhere. Poor people are the 'base' for dollar stores. In order to build and expand as a company - you have to grow your audience. The point that I was making that you intentionally played indignant to is that by establishing themselves in *slightly* better suburbs, the dollar store created an inroad into parts of the middle class and particularly the disposable income of the middle class. Dollar stores could not / would not have survived their expansion if they had not made inroads with middle income brackets. While poor people rely on dollar stores for a greater percentage of necessities, the product mix becomes the kitchy junk for the middle class - empty Christmas tins, glow sticks, GI George figures - its the stuff that dilutes useful SKUs. The expansion of the junk means a dollar store starts to lose the only good thing about it - that it is present and provides *some* products where other places aren't and don't. But, go with your assertion that I'm oblivious to the economics of what makes a community.
posted by Nanukthedog at 6:28 AM on July 6, 2020 [3 favorites]
Your glib response notwithstanding, certainly there are poor people everywhere. Poor people are the 'base' for dollar stores. In order to build and expand as a company - you have to grow your audience. The point that I was making that you intentionally played indignant to is that by establishing themselves in *slightly* better suburbs, the dollar store created an inroad into parts of the middle class and particularly the disposable income of the middle class. Dollar stores could not / would not have survived their expansion if they had not made inroads with middle income brackets. While poor people rely on dollar stores for a greater percentage of necessities, the product mix becomes the kitchy junk for the middle class - empty Christmas tins, glow sticks, GI George figures - its the stuff that dilutes useful SKUs. The expansion of the junk means a dollar store starts to lose the only good thing about it - that it is present and provides *some* products where other places aren't and don't. But, go with your assertion that I'm oblivious to the economics of what makes a community.
posted by Nanukthedog at 6:28 AM on July 6, 2020 [3 favorites]
So, turns out New Seasons is a B-Corp and ahderes to the standards for certification by B-labs. ( CEO interview from 2017 re: certification.)
But the brand is a byword for gentrification in Portland. And comparing the locations of New Seasons and Dollar Tree looks very much like a core/periphery arrangement. There is a single store east of SE 54th, near a bunch of recent apartment and condo development.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:56 AM on July 6, 2020
But the brand is a byword for gentrification in Portland. And comparing the locations of New Seasons and Dollar Tree looks very much like a core/periphery arrangement. There is a single store east of SE 54th, near a bunch of recent apartment and condo development.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:56 AM on July 6, 2020
I'm still not convinced that dollar stores are anything other than a lagging indicator of dilapidated strip malls, which are themselves indicators of the community surrounding them. The question to my mind is what happens to communities with dilapidated strip malls dollar stores don't go to into.
I'm with you on this one, mostly. I mean, I could get the point Nanukthedog is trying to make, but every Dollar General (the ultra-crappy one where most stuff is not $1 and the markups are insane) is around 10k sq ft store, and it's packed with merchandise, so I see little evidence of floor space being put over to 'middle class impulse buys'. I know for a fact that the Dollar General in my upper middle class neighborhood is renting at less than $1 a sq ft per month, (that was the advertised rate) and with their corporate power probably much less. To rent an apartment around me, the rate is 2X that and to buy a house closer to 3X. So space for GI George costs less than space for me.
There is also the Japanese dollar store chain Daiso, which mostly rents in upper income areas, but still sells a similar product mix with a cutesy Japanese spin.
And the shabby Dollar General in my super poor small hometown sells a very similar mix of products to my neighborhood, even though in my neighborhood it is surrounded by 3 actual grocery stores and other upper income shopping options.
I think the SKU mix is probably true for Dollar Tree -(the one where everything is a dollar.) Their stores and aisle widths are different, depending on the area you are in. But so are WalMarts. WalMart in some parts of the country is a nice store, almost fancy. In others it looks like a Dollar General.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:22 AM on July 6, 2020
I'm with you on this one, mostly. I mean, I could get the point Nanukthedog is trying to make, but every Dollar General (the ultra-crappy one where most stuff is not $1 and the markups are insane) is around 10k sq ft store, and it's packed with merchandise, so I see little evidence of floor space being put over to 'middle class impulse buys'. I know for a fact that the Dollar General in my upper middle class neighborhood is renting at less than $1 a sq ft per month, (that was the advertised rate) and with their corporate power probably much less. To rent an apartment around me, the rate is 2X that and to buy a house closer to 3X. So space for GI George costs less than space for me.
There is also the Japanese dollar store chain Daiso, which mostly rents in upper income areas, but still sells a similar product mix with a cutesy Japanese spin.
And the shabby Dollar General in my super poor small hometown sells a very similar mix of products to my neighborhood, even though in my neighborhood it is surrounded by 3 actual grocery stores and other upper income shopping options.
I think the SKU mix is probably true for Dollar Tree -(the one where everything is a dollar.) Their stores and aisle widths are different, depending on the area you are in. But so are WalMarts. WalMart in some parts of the country is a nice store, almost fancy. In others it looks like a Dollar General.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:22 AM on July 6, 2020
There is one reason I have, at times, been happy Dollar General exists: They sell not-girl scout cookies that are made by the same bakery as girl scout cookies all year round.
posted by wierdo at 6:46 PM on July 6, 2020
posted by wierdo at 6:46 PM on July 6, 2020
Metafilter: Would be great if people would actually RTFA rather than banging on about whatever reductive hobby-horse they're obsessed with.
While poor people rely on dollar stores for a greater percentage of necessities, the product mix becomes the kitchy junk for the middle class - empty Christmas tins, glow sticks, GI George figures - its the stuff that dilutes useful SKUs.
Let's also not forget that poor people buy that "kitchy junk" too. Those super cheap (both in quality and price) toys, pool/swim accessories, tins are things poor people need and want as well. People generally want/need all kinds of things. Dollar General has those things at a cheap price. Everyone knows the quality is shit. There is a need here that needs to be served. You could bring in an actual grocer, and that would be awesome, but DG would still be there for the kitchy shit, the quick run-ins for one thing, essentially an expanded convenience store.
I have been lucky in that I have never had to depend on a dollar store for my actual groceries. The main time I lived in a food desert was pre-2008 crash and there just weren't as many Dollar Generals back then. So I drove my beater to the nearest Walmart for groceries. Now, if I go to a dollar store it's for the convenience because I just need one thing, or to load up on cheap toys/games for some kind of family thing. Or I may take a neice or nephew and let them pick out a few toys since we can get more toys there for the money than anywhere else (and the kids I'm talking about absolutely destroy toys within the first day so lasting quality is not the issue).
posted by LizBoBiz at 2:08 AM on July 7, 2020
While poor people rely on dollar stores for a greater percentage of necessities, the product mix becomes the kitchy junk for the middle class - empty Christmas tins, glow sticks, GI George figures - its the stuff that dilutes useful SKUs.
Let's also not forget that poor people buy that "kitchy junk" too. Those super cheap (both in quality and price) toys, pool/swim accessories, tins are things poor people need and want as well. People generally want/need all kinds of things. Dollar General has those things at a cheap price. Everyone knows the quality is shit. There is a need here that needs to be served. You could bring in an actual grocer, and that would be awesome, but DG would still be there for the kitchy shit, the quick run-ins for one thing, essentially an expanded convenience store.
I have been lucky in that I have never had to depend on a dollar store for my actual groceries. The main time I lived in a food desert was pre-2008 crash and there just weren't as many Dollar Generals back then. So I drove my beater to the nearest Walmart for groceries. Now, if I go to a dollar store it's for the convenience because I just need one thing, or to load up on cheap toys/games for some kind of family thing. Or I may take a neice or nephew and let them pick out a few toys since we can get more toys there for the money than anywhere else (and the kids I'm talking about absolutely destroy toys within the first day so lasting quality is not the issue).
posted by LizBoBiz at 2:08 AM on July 7, 2020
Should stores be required to staff security guards during store hours?
This question goes to the heart of the issue for me. In the US the poor are constantly subject to what amounts to regressive taxation. Not only do they almost never get a discount for anything, they pay a higher premium just because they're poor. In the case of stores like the one in the linked article, the choices are bleak.
Imagine, for example, a more community minded individual was flat out given the Dollar Store to run, where the supply chain and inventory would remain unchanged, so the same initial costs the Dollar Store had would be identical, which is a fantasy in itself, but still. That person could either hire security guards and perhaps additional staff to keep the aisles clean or do nothing, but either choice acts as a tax on the community they serve. Adding even a minimal additional staff would add somewhere around a couple hundred dollars a day to the store's cost, where doing nothing maintains the risk of violence and difficulty the store's customers and staff faces.
Adding costs not only makes the store less profitable than it was, but also makes its costs higher than the exact same store operated in a "better" neighborhood. The difference in cost would go a long way to making up for any difference in rent that better neighborhood might demand while also reducing many of the difficulties found in operating in a poorer neighborhood, making the choice to stay one that would have to be based on the desire to help that community over profits, which acts as a tax on the owner they might not be able to bear. Doing nothing subjects the community to behavior more affluent communities don't have to deal with, which is another kind of tax, while keeping the location and increasing costs would be yet another way that community pays more than their better off neighbors.
These are the constant choices facing poor communities, where they always end up paying more for the same goods than the well off do. Racism only amplifies this, giving the white communities benefits the minority communities seldom see. It isn't just security of course, it's everything that the poor person deals with where they end up paying extra, whether through money, time, stress, effort or safety. Among the poor there are many who see no stability in life. They look ahead and only see an unending life of sameness, little opportunity and constant hassle, whether by the authorities or just the economic system they are subject to from events they may or may not have had any influence on, where every day is a new variation of the prisoner's dilemma, a daily battle over respect or cash.
That kind of perspective can make living day to day seem the most attractive option. You don't plan, planning after all holds some idea of stability in having a goal you can see met, and instead spend money as they have it or otherwise live in the moment. Dollar Stores are attractive to many like that because not only are there things they can afford, but Dollar Stores are based on profiting off people like them, yes, in the sense of exploiting, but as importantly in the sense of considering the poor a major part of their customer base and operating a business that provides them with an opportunity to load up a bag of cheap goods and feel like they are getting a adequate reward in quantity, need, and "fun". That's a huge thing for many who live day to day as the need to feel like you can get things like other people do, even if the quality isn't great carries an emotional reward. Those are people who will go to Dollar Store even if a "better" option opens in the community, because it can suit their specific wants.
Those kinds of people though don't define the poor, any more than frivolous spenders define the rich. There are also people who are making plans, raising families, who do plan and budget and desperately desire the stability of a more "normal" life that requires access to a fuller range of goods and options than a Dollar Store can provide. And of course perhaps even more numerously are those of us who've gone back and forth between trying to live a planned and stable life and taking each day as it comes who would like a grocery store, but need something like a Dollar Store as well. There were plenty of times, for a personal example, where going to an Albertson's seemed like a major burden, not because I couldn't afford anything, but because I couldn't get much and being presented with all the options of things I couldn't get felt like an affront that getting cheap crap from a Dollar Store instead could somewhat alleviate.
The problem is that by concentrating so many people who see life as unstable into a community can destabilize it for everyone because that tends to carry along crime, drugs, homelessness, mental illness and other problems that will effect everyone who lives there. Because of that the cost of living rises for everyone. Still, it's not like anyone would object to there being more choices, even the most dedicated Dollar Store shopper would sometimes like a grocery store, or better a grocery outlet, which I would have happily preferred to a Dollar Store, but the cost of operating businesses goes up disproportionately to the income of the customer base.
Convenience stores who hire security can end up, like a local store near me now, charging 2.59 for a 20 oz soda and like increases for everything else from beer, smokes, and the few grocery items they do carry because they have to pay for extra staff and because they can due to lack of alternatives. Or if we look back to the example of our community minded business owner who inherited a store, they want to pay a living wage and add more better goods and perishable items. Those things are good and necessary for the society, but they cost money and paying a living wage to employees serving a community that may not get that same rate of pay means the community members are bearing the burden of social justice from which they aren't seeing the same reward, which means they get less to give others more.
The same kinds of disproportion arise with security and policing, because stores with more valuable items require more confidence in maintaining their stock and not being robbed or driving away customers they want added precautions that we know have been problems of their own for many of the potential customer base. That can add a whole new layer of stress and problems for many, while not having it has its own drawbacks for others. These are things that aren't often considered for affluent white neighborhoods, where hassling the "wrong sort" of people often seems to be considered a net benefit instead of a burden.
Getting rid of Dollar Stores may be the right thing to do for all I know, but I don't think it will change much of anything that really would make a difference for most of the neighborhoods they occupy because the problem isn't so much the stores as the way we allow capitalism to work and make the poor subsidize the wealthy. Fixing those things though is a much taller order and harder to envision than removing Dollar Stores, and it would require actively challenging one of the most attractive elements of capitalism to many, which is that the individual or business gets to act according to the rules of the market and the rest of us have to adapt to whatever changes they inflict. We can only ever try and catch up to the "disruptions" after the fact, when they have already taken root, rather than demand they justify their actions with a social benefit analysis or even just a nod to how their plans might change things.
Without changes to that and/or income, rent, and other social justice issues its hard to see how killing the Dollar Stores will accomplish much. I think it's important to remember that while the talk of Dollar Stores killing communities may be true to some extent, those killed communities do still tend to have residents of their own that generally seem to fall even lower notice but deserve their own consideration as people with needs of their own.
posted by gusottertrout at 5:35 AM on July 7, 2020 [5 favorites]
This question goes to the heart of the issue for me. In the US the poor are constantly subject to what amounts to regressive taxation. Not only do they almost never get a discount for anything, they pay a higher premium just because they're poor. In the case of stores like the one in the linked article, the choices are bleak.
Imagine, for example, a more community minded individual was flat out given the Dollar Store to run, where the supply chain and inventory would remain unchanged, so the same initial costs the Dollar Store had would be identical, which is a fantasy in itself, but still. That person could either hire security guards and perhaps additional staff to keep the aisles clean or do nothing, but either choice acts as a tax on the community they serve. Adding even a minimal additional staff would add somewhere around a couple hundred dollars a day to the store's cost, where doing nothing maintains the risk of violence and difficulty the store's customers and staff faces.
Adding costs not only makes the store less profitable than it was, but also makes its costs higher than the exact same store operated in a "better" neighborhood. The difference in cost would go a long way to making up for any difference in rent that better neighborhood might demand while also reducing many of the difficulties found in operating in a poorer neighborhood, making the choice to stay one that would have to be based on the desire to help that community over profits, which acts as a tax on the owner they might not be able to bear. Doing nothing subjects the community to behavior more affluent communities don't have to deal with, which is another kind of tax, while keeping the location and increasing costs would be yet another way that community pays more than their better off neighbors.
These are the constant choices facing poor communities, where they always end up paying more for the same goods than the well off do. Racism only amplifies this, giving the white communities benefits the minority communities seldom see. It isn't just security of course, it's everything that the poor person deals with where they end up paying extra, whether through money, time, stress, effort or safety. Among the poor there are many who see no stability in life. They look ahead and only see an unending life of sameness, little opportunity and constant hassle, whether by the authorities or just the economic system they are subject to from events they may or may not have had any influence on, where every day is a new variation of the prisoner's dilemma, a daily battle over respect or cash.
That kind of perspective can make living day to day seem the most attractive option. You don't plan, planning after all holds some idea of stability in having a goal you can see met, and instead spend money as they have it or otherwise live in the moment. Dollar Stores are attractive to many like that because not only are there things they can afford, but Dollar Stores are based on profiting off people like them, yes, in the sense of exploiting, but as importantly in the sense of considering the poor a major part of their customer base and operating a business that provides them with an opportunity to load up a bag of cheap goods and feel like they are getting a adequate reward in quantity, need, and "fun". That's a huge thing for many who live day to day as the need to feel like you can get things like other people do, even if the quality isn't great carries an emotional reward. Those are people who will go to Dollar Store even if a "better" option opens in the community, because it can suit their specific wants.
Those kinds of people though don't define the poor, any more than frivolous spenders define the rich. There are also people who are making plans, raising families, who do plan and budget and desperately desire the stability of a more "normal" life that requires access to a fuller range of goods and options than a Dollar Store can provide. And of course perhaps even more numerously are those of us who've gone back and forth between trying to live a planned and stable life and taking each day as it comes who would like a grocery store, but need something like a Dollar Store as well. There were plenty of times, for a personal example, where going to an Albertson's seemed like a major burden, not because I couldn't afford anything, but because I couldn't get much and being presented with all the options of things I couldn't get felt like an affront that getting cheap crap from a Dollar Store instead could somewhat alleviate.
The problem is that by concentrating so many people who see life as unstable into a community can destabilize it for everyone because that tends to carry along crime, drugs, homelessness, mental illness and other problems that will effect everyone who lives there. Because of that the cost of living rises for everyone. Still, it's not like anyone would object to there being more choices, even the most dedicated Dollar Store shopper would sometimes like a grocery store, or better a grocery outlet, which I would have happily preferred to a Dollar Store, but the cost of operating businesses goes up disproportionately to the income of the customer base.
Convenience stores who hire security can end up, like a local store near me now, charging 2.59 for a 20 oz soda and like increases for everything else from beer, smokes, and the few grocery items they do carry because they have to pay for extra staff and because they can due to lack of alternatives. Or if we look back to the example of our community minded business owner who inherited a store, they want to pay a living wage and add more better goods and perishable items. Those things are good and necessary for the society, but they cost money and paying a living wage to employees serving a community that may not get that same rate of pay means the community members are bearing the burden of social justice from which they aren't seeing the same reward, which means they get less to give others more.
The same kinds of disproportion arise with security and policing, because stores with more valuable items require more confidence in maintaining their stock and not being robbed or driving away customers they want added precautions that we know have been problems of their own for many of the potential customer base. That can add a whole new layer of stress and problems for many, while not having it has its own drawbacks for others. These are things that aren't often considered for affluent white neighborhoods, where hassling the "wrong sort" of people often seems to be considered a net benefit instead of a burden.
Getting rid of Dollar Stores may be the right thing to do for all I know, but I don't think it will change much of anything that really would make a difference for most of the neighborhoods they occupy because the problem isn't so much the stores as the way we allow capitalism to work and make the poor subsidize the wealthy. Fixing those things though is a much taller order and harder to envision than removing Dollar Stores, and it would require actively challenging one of the most attractive elements of capitalism to many, which is that the individual or business gets to act according to the rules of the market and the rest of us have to adapt to whatever changes they inflict. We can only ever try and catch up to the "disruptions" after the fact, when they have already taken root, rather than demand they justify their actions with a social benefit analysis or even just a nod to how their plans might change things.
Without changes to that and/or income, rent, and other social justice issues its hard to see how killing the Dollar Stores will accomplish much. I think it's important to remember that while the talk of Dollar Stores killing communities may be true to some extent, those killed communities do still tend to have residents of their own that generally seem to fall even lower notice but deserve their own consideration as people with needs of their own.
posted by gusottertrout at 5:35 AM on July 7, 2020 [5 favorites]
Should stores be required to staff security guards during store hours?
It's an interesting question upended by the corona virus, as where I am visiting in southern California has a uniformed security guard at every big box store and grocery store, even though it's an upper class area generally. They are there to enforce mask compliance at entry. Where I live (and every other state I've visited along the way between) this is done by store employees, not uniformed security. Even though mask compliance rates are very similar across all the states and once inside the stores where mask wearing is mandated by security, compliance falls slightly.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:56 AM on July 7, 2020
It's an interesting question upended by the corona virus, as where I am visiting in southern California has a uniformed security guard at every big box store and grocery store, even though it's an upper class area generally. They are there to enforce mask compliance at entry. Where I live (and every other state I've visited along the way between) this is done by store employees, not uniformed security. Even though mask compliance rates are very similar across all the states and once inside the stores where mask wearing is mandated by security, compliance falls slightly.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:56 AM on July 7, 2020
The fact that Family Dollar and Dollar Tree (as mentioned upthread) are wholly owned by the same corporation yet one is most often in suburban/affluent areas with a higher level of quality tells you all you need to know: corporations like this will get away with as much as they think they can. In this case, they have shown that they can offer one thing to wealthier clientele because they know they have to be competitive, but offer absolute crap at the lowest possible cost to the company (low staffing included) because that clientele has no other options, and most people won't listen if they do complain.
They have literally shown that they can do better when it suits them, but in the food desert cases, they've chosen not to. I don't know how that can be seen as anything other than exploitative, and given the general target market for the crappier stores, horrifically racist.
posted by Ghidorah at 5:22 PM on July 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
They have literally shown that they can do better when it suits them, but in the food desert cases, they've chosen not to. I don't know how that can be seen as anything other than exploitative, and given the general target market for the crappier stores, horrifically racist.
posted by Ghidorah at 5:22 PM on July 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
They have literally shown that they can do better when it suits them, but in the food desert cases, they've chosen not to.
This is a particularly striking example, but the phenomenon can be found well beyond dollar stores in the US. Pick almost any widespread retail brand in a major metro area and compare the levels of service, stocking, etc. in locations in majority-Black neighborhoods vs. majority-white neighborhoods. (This is not news to most Black people, obviously, but in my experience is often completely invisible to whites.)
There is probably a distinction to be drawn, in theory, between businesses that are directly asking themselves "how racist can we get away with being" and ones asking "how little can we get away with providing to each specific community." But in many, many cases, the same companies that underinvest in locations in Black communities will then use the consequences of their underinvestment (namely, that people who can go elsewhere will do so) to justify further disinvestment and closures. And at that point the mask is pretty much all the way off.
posted by Not A Thing at 10:43 PM on July 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
This is a particularly striking example, but the phenomenon can be found well beyond dollar stores in the US. Pick almost any widespread retail brand in a major metro area and compare the levels of service, stocking, etc. in locations in majority-Black neighborhoods vs. majority-white neighborhoods. (This is not news to most Black people, obviously, but in my experience is often completely invisible to whites.)
There is probably a distinction to be drawn, in theory, between businesses that are directly asking themselves "how racist can we get away with being" and ones asking "how little can we get away with providing to each specific community." But in many, many cases, the same companies that underinvest in locations in Black communities will then use the consequences of their underinvestment (namely, that people who can go elsewhere will do so) to justify further disinvestment and closures. And at that point the mask is pretty much all the way off.
posted by Not A Thing at 10:43 PM on July 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
For sure. Ralph's supermarket locations in affluent parts of LA are stocked -- and decorated and maintained -- entirely differently than those in low income areas.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:58 AM on July 8, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:58 AM on July 8, 2020 [1 favorite]
Same for Key Foods in Brooklyn and Kroger in different communities in central Illinois.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:53 PM on July 8, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:53 PM on July 8, 2020 [1 favorite]
My neighborhood has the saddest run-down Giant Eagle store while the whiter neighborhoods have super fancy Giant Eagle Marketplace stores that are aimed at Whole Foods shoppers.
posted by octothorpe at 5:42 AM on July 9, 2020
posted by octothorpe at 5:42 AM on July 9, 2020
Well I’m glad this thread is still active. Gusottertrout, thank you for your most recent comment; I was all prepared to be snarky about your response to mine but you kinda beat me to the punch on my own retort.
My frustration with some of the attitudes in this thread is not that I have a strictly economic/sociological theory argument in the Dollar Store/Crime causality question. I think it’s an interesting question in some ways but overly limited and abstracted from reality. The questions of crime and dollar stores in my neighborhood cannot really responsibly be separated from considerations of food sovereignty, systemic oppression, and race.
Decline came first in Detroit just based on the historical timeline in the article. But the destruction of businesses in Detroit was not a ‘natural’ economic phenomenon, the result of the supply/demand classical economics that have been raised in this thread. The prosperity soil was salted so that seeds could not grow. Detroit has been punished, intentionally and comprehensively, for the sins of being Black and prosperous and and self-determined. Detroit’s destruction is no more natural than Greenwood’s. This is not to say “everything that has happened here has been at the hands of outsiders and everyone in the city has been great.” Absolutely not. But you can no more understand economics in Metro Detroit without racism than you can colonial history without slavery. And the same, I think, is true for East Saint Louis, Compton, Oakland, the Bronx. (Note- I am not Black but am proud to pay my taxes here)
So the question is less important as ‘do they create crime’ (and I think the answer is yes) than ‘do they perpetuate and indeed advance the conditions of the area that are tied to crime’ and I think that is a resounding yes. Like the Prickly Pear metaphor above, they take root and they create only more drought.
I don’t know what to recommend in terms of restoring and cultivating a sustainable economic ecosystem for groceries and sundries. But I do know that Detroit deserves better. We deserve to not have to accept dirty stores with higher prices than the ones across the city line. And those conditions are not determined by the invisible hand of the market; they are determined by the forceful hands of Lansing and Washington and Oakland and Macomb Counties. There will not be a better until the punishment stops and reparations are made.
posted by skookumsaurus rex at 4:22 AM on July 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
My frustration with some of the attitudes in this thread is not that I have a strictly economic/sociological theory argument in the Dollar Store/Crime causality question. I think it’s an interesting question in some ways but overly limited and abstracted from reality. The questions of crime and dollar stores in my neighborhood cannot really responsibly be separated from considerations of food sovereignty, systemic oppression, and race.
Decline came first in Detroit just based on the historical timeline in the article. But the destruction of businesses in Detroit was not a ‘natural’ economic phenomenon, the result of the supply/demand classical economics that have been raised in this thread. The prosperity soil was salted so that seeds could not grow. Detroit has been punished, intentionally and comprehensively, for the sins of being Black and prosperous and and self-determined. Detroit’s destruction is no more natural than Greenwood’s. This is not to say “everything that has happened here has been at the hands of outsiders and everyone in the city has been great.” Absolutely not. But you can no more understand economics in Metro Detroit without racism than you can colonial history without slavery. And the same, I think, is true for East Saint Louis, Compton, Oakland, the Bronx. (Note- I am not Black but am proud to pay my taxes here)
So the question is less important as ‘do they create crime’ (and I think the answer is yes) than ‘do they perpetuate and indeed advance the conditions of the area that are tied to crime’ and I think that is a resounding yes. Like the Prickly Pear metaphor above, they take root and they create only more drought.
I don’t know what to recommend in terms of restoring and cultivating a sustainable economic ecosystem for groceries and sundries. But I do know that Detroit deserves better. We deserve to not have to accept dirty stores with higher prices than the ones across the city line. And those conditions are not determined by the invisible hand of the market; they are determined by the forceful hands of Lansing and Washington and Oakland and Macomb Counties. There will not be a better until the punishment stops and reparations are made.
posted by skookumsaurus rex at 4:22 AM on July 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I'm sorry that I didn't think to try and speak to that point earlier right away since I agree with you but fear my earlier comments may have seemed like they were trying to evade the point and caused some understandable anger or resentment. My apologies for that to everyone.
posted by gusottertrout at 4:45 AM on July 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by gusottertrout at 4:45 AM on July 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
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Do 7/11s have a similar dynamic? In my strip of relatively impoverished (but gentrifying) Bay Area neighborhood, a 7/11 was the only walkable place to get food and basics for a long time, and I wonder if it fills/exploits a similar niche, to similar ill effect.
From a systemic standpoint, that line from an industry CEO about how the economy is producing more of their customer--that's damning. If there were any doubt that they knew exactly how they slide into a system that thrives on and produces inequality, then that doubt should be gone now.
posted by col_pogo at 3:05 PM on July 2, 2020 [9 favorites]