History Books Are Meant to Educate; Monuments Are Meant to Glorify
July 8, 2020 11:35 AM Subscribe
“If the criteria is that the subject of the statue owned slaves, then what’s next; taking down the statues of the Founding Fathers? Denigrating the memory of the Founding Fathers?”[T]he protestors have shown they were not bluffing. Statues of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson have been removed by protestors... Attention should be brought to the Founding Fathers, not because they were white slave owners (although that should be enough), but because the entire narrative about their intentions regarding creating the United States is not history, but mythology. Traditionalism has consequences. Myths have consequences. And these myths must be dismantled as much as any statue. — Renegade Cut, The Cult of Tradition
“Eternal Fascism: Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt” , By Umberto Eco
#BustTheBusts
posted by flabdablet at 1:37 PM on July 8, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 1:37 PM on July 8, 2020 [2 favorites]
guys guys if this goes too far someone might declare that the constitution is not a perfect document handed down from on high
posted by benzenedream at 1:55 PM on July 8, 2020 [16 favorites]
posted by benzenedream at 1:55 PM on July 8, 2020 [16 favorites]
If Christians were more consistent in their principles we might not even have to have this whole fucking debate what with the whole "idolatry" thing. Growing up as a fundie we were taught that Catholics were bad and wrong because they 'worshipped statues' (a very bad misreading which I learned, thanks to an internet friend and her gift of St John of Damascus "On the Divine Images" (IIRC)).
I guess what I'm saying is if this were a truly a Christian nation and Christianity is truly meant to be iconoclastic, then, this whole project would be moot...
Don't worry, we'd still have plenty of other battles to fight in such a world.
I do wonder about the people who have been smashing statues of people who were actively working against slavery (not a huge phenomenon but it has happened) and as a minor quibble I don't bother myself with it, but it just shows that uninformed zealotry can damage "the brand" as it were, and destroy the images you should be propping up as well. Still I'll take a rare one of my own down if we can smash the majority of the other sides down, kthx.
posted by symbioid at 2:09 PM on July 8, 2020 [7 favorites]
I guess what I'm saying is if this were a truly a Christian nation and Christianity is truly meant to be iconoclastic, then, this whole project would be moot...
Don't worry, we'd still have plenty of other battles to fight in such a world.
I do wonder about the people who have been smashing statues of people who were actively working against slavery (not a huge phenomenon but it has happened) and as a minor quibble I don't bother myself with it, but it just shows that uninformed zealotry can damage "the brand" as it were, and destroy the images you should be propping up as well. Still I'll take a rare one of my own down if we can smash the majority of the other sides down, kthx.
posted by symbioid at 2:09 PM on July 8, 2020 [7 favorites]
I do wonder about the people who have been smashing statues of people who were actively working against slavery (not a huge phenomenon but it has happened)
I’ve rather assumed a good chunk of that was done by racists.
posted by Secret Sparrow at 2:32 PM on July 8, 2020 [3 favorites]
I’ve rather assumed a good chunk of that was done by racists.
posted by Secret Sparrow at 2:32 PM on July 8, 2020 [3 favorites]
It warms the cockles of my leftie heart to see renegade cut on mefi. His Late Stage Disney video was the one that got me hooked. I never miss an episode now. I would be curious what other people think of his ouvre.
posted by pol at 3:53 PM on July 8, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by pol at 3:53 PM on July 8, 2020 [1 favorite]
I’ve rather assumed a good chunk of [smashing statues of people who fought slavery] was done by racists.
Likely you have some of that, and some people acting out of a combination of over-zealousness and under-awareness ("It's a statue of a white guy! It's goin' down!....oh, he fought slavery? Oh. Didn't know that. Oops."). This latter point, though, serves as a counter-argument to the "but these statues teach history" claim. A statue alone can't teach history - a statue needs a context.
The problem with the statues isn't the statues themselves as such. The problem with the statues is that the context in which they are sitting is that "we told you in school that these are the dudes that were Confederate leaders, and so now that you know that, we're gonna put all these statues of them up to remind you how awesome we think they are."
The act of taking down a statue isn't about "erasing history" as such. It's about "I disagree that this dude was awesome."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:26 AM on July 9, 2020
Likely you have some of that, and some people acting out of a combination of over-zealousness and under-awareness ("It's a statue of a white guy! It's goin' down!....oh, he fought slavery? Oh. Didn't know that. Oops."). This latter point, though, serves as a counter-argument to the "but these statues teach history" claim. A statue alone can't teach history - a statue needs a context.
The problem with the statues isn't the statues themselves as such. The problem with the statues is that the context in which they are sitting is that "we told you in school that these are the dudes that were Confederate leaders, and so now that you know that, we're gonna put all these statues of them up to remind you how awesome we think they are."
The act of taking down a statue isn't about "erasing history" as such. It's about "I disagree that this dude was awesome."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:26 AM on July 9, 2020
Soviets hereded thier statues, found them nice little fields to sit in.
under-awareness
like "I was unaware this person fought for freedom". I see what you mean.
posted by clavdivs at 8:48 AM on July 9, 2020
under-awareness
like "I was unaware this person fought for freedom". I see what you mean.
posted by clavdivs at 8:48 AM on July 9, 2020
Hot take: Lincoln was not as pro-black as you might have thought. If he lived we wouldn't have as advanced race relations as we have today.
Source: https://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/ jala/2629860.0005.104 /--lincoln-s-constitutional-dilemma -emancipation-and-black? rgn=main;view=fulltext
posted by JJ86 at 3:01 PM on July 9, 2020
Source: https://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/ jala/2629860.0005.104 /--lincoln-s-constitutional-dilemma -emancipation-and-black? rgn=main;view=fulltext
posted by JJ86 at 3:01 PM on July 9, 2020
Not to argue Lincoln wasn't without problems but he was succeeded by arguably one of the most racist presidents ever. It's hard to imagine a worst person leading the nation at that time period who didn't have white robe with a pointy hat in the closet.
posted by Mitheral at 3:58 PM on July 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Mitheral at 3:58 PM on July 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
“I Am A Direct Descendant of Thomas Jefferson. Take Down His Memorial”
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 7:56 AM on July 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 7:56 AM on July 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
It's hard to imagine a worst person leading the nation at that time period who didn't have white robe with a pointy hat in the closet.
agreed. His impeachment is proof. But in 1865, at Lincoln's death, there was no klan.
but Johnson sure paved the way
posted by clavdivs at 11:07 AM on July 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
agreed. His impeachment is proof. But in 1865, at Lincoln's death, there was no klan.
but Johnson sure paved the way
posted by clavdivs at 11:07 AM on July 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
It looks like Tennessee is going to take down the bust of Forrest that’s in the state capitol building.
If they replace it at all, popular sentiment seems to be for Dolly Parton. If not her, and if we must have a confederate (and we mustn’t, no more than we need statues of the coronavirus, or that weird boll weevil monument in Alabama), then the only acceptable alternative is of course the legendary Col. Angus.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 11:26 AM on July 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
If they replace it at all, popular sentiment seems to be for Dolly Parton. If not her, and if we must have a confederate (and we mustn’t, no more than we need statues of the coronavirus, or that weird boll weevil monument in Alabama), then the only acceptable alternative is of course the legendary Col. Angus.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 11:26 AM on July 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
there was no klan.
∠( ﾟдﾟ)/
Well that'll teach me to look at just the year of a founding date.
posted by Mitheral at 5:21 PM on July 10, 2020
∠( ﾟдﾟ)/
Well that'll teach me to look at just the year of a founding date.
posted by Mitheral at 5:21 PM on July 10, 2020
1865 but late. There was already Confederate planning of 'militas' but the Klan signaled a wider acceptence, a 'judtification' for it's existence. Also popular and political support gained from the Johnson idiocy. It ushered in state co-sponsering of klan agendas, oppresing anyone with a different view, including 'yankees'.
posted by clavdivs at 9:16 AM on July 12, 2020
posted by clavdivs at 9:16 AM on July 12, 2020
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Umberto Eco on Political Correctness. in as words and monuments are comparative "...it simply means the word is removed but not the problem"
but because the entire narrative about their intentions regarding creating the United States is not history, but mythology.
I'm smashing my John Adams bust tomorrow.
posted by clavdivs at 12:58 PM on July 8, 2020 [1 favorite]