No boy would ever be good enough for my princess...
July 9, 2020 7:31 AM Subscribe
is a thing I would say if I didn't acknowledge that princess is a fundamentally patronizing epithet! A dad discovers feminism and admits his areas of challenge and growth in letting his daughter be, you know, her own human being, allowing her to have her own emotional growth and make her own choices because that's what treating her as her own person means. Secondarily, Jon Hamm narrates this and adds humor to an important message. (Single link New Yorker Video warning - SLNY-erV?)
This is great - and skewers so nicely something that's really bothered me: the media depiction of excessively protective fathers as if that's a healthy way to treat your daughters.
That said, my not-at-all-protective father once made me a tank top with the phrase "Daddy's Little Girl". He'd recently gotten into printing iron-on things, and it had a picture of me as a toddler, a very cute toddler. If I had still been a toddler, it would have worked, but at the time I was about 20 and I just couldn't wear it. I don't think he realized the implications - I like to think that in his eyes, I was still a big-eyed little person with a pot-belly (I mean, I was taller, but I did still have big eyes and bit of a pot belly...). So I laugh about it now, because I know how he meant it.
I prefer the argument that princesses are the first up against the wall (or into the guillotine) when the revolution comes.
With the development of the "princess" industry over the last couple of decades, I always thought that if I had a daughter, I'd explain to her about arranged marriages and treaties and alliances - and how it would have been much better to be a prosperous merchant widow in the middle ages than a princess.
posted by jb at 8:04 AM on July 9, 2020 [20 favorites]
That said, my not-at-all-protective father once made me a tank top with the phrase "Daddy's Little Girl". He'd recently gotten into printing iron-on things, and it had a picture of me as a toddler, a very cute toddler. If I had still been a toddler, it would have worked, but at the time I was about 20 and I just couldn't wear it. I don't think he realized the implications - I like to think that in his eyes, I was still a big-eyed little person with a pot-belly (I mean, I was taller, but I did still have big eyes and bit of a pot belly...). So I laugh about it now, because I know how he meant it.
I prefer the argument that princesses are the first up against the wall (or into the guillotine) when the revolution comes.
With the development of the "princess" industry over the last couple of decades, I always thought that if I had a daughter, I'd explain to her about arranged marriages and treaties and alliances - and how it would have been much better to be a prosperous merchant widow in the middle ages than a princess.
posted by jb at 8:04 AM on July 9, 2020 [20 favorites]
I actually like the approach that someone wrote about in this viral-meme-thing that I saw once; a father whose little girl was in the princess phase, and he decided to play with her every so often, presenting himself as "The Royal Advisor" and meeting with her to discuss things like "My Lady, I've heard that the Fairies who live in the Royal Pond are getting upset that there is mud in the pond - but the Frogs who live there say that they need that mud. What should we do?" or "My Lady, I've heard that the Pixies and the Teddy Bears in the north may be getting ready to fight because they keep stealing each others' flowers. How can we help them make friends again?"
It acknowledged the love some little girls have of being super-girly, and letting her play and do the princess thing, but added the nuance that princesses can also be smart and capable and solve problems.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:05 AM on July 9, 2020 [96 favorites]
It acknowledged the love some little girls have of being super-girly, and letting her play and do the princess thing, but added the nuance that princesses can also be smart and capable and solve problems.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:05 AM on July 9, 2020 [96 favorites]
the media depiction of excessively protective fathers as if that's a healthy way to treat your daughters
I really like Mike Dawson's take on this.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:17 AM on July 9, 2020 [13 favorites]
I really like Mike Dawson's take on this.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:17 AM on July 9, 2020 [13 favorites]
Paraphrasing the video: I know what you are thinking because I was a 16-yo boy once. I really liked that this was included, because from my own anecdotal experience, this has a lot to do with which type of 16-yo a dad was. If he had a (relatively) relaxed relationship with girls back then, he will be comfortable with his daughter's relationships now.
posted by mumimor at 8:29 AM on July 9, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 8:29 AM on July 9, 2020 [4 favorites]
I've heard little boys be called Princes though. (although they do tend to be younger in age). Once I even met a man in a court room who was there merely to change his first name to Prince. However I've noticed that it's generally looked down on more than calling a girl princess.
Calling a boy "my little prince" is often seen as spoiling him and making him grow up to be a little entitled which was a negative for a boy. Traditionally women were not employed and this meant it was seen as advantage to teach a girl that she deserved to receive things from others like a princess would. But a man was expected to be employed and make his own way and spoiling him had no advantage. If anything it was detrimental. Like many things it likely started out as a positive thing for it's time, but outlived it's usefulness and as times changed (and women were also expected to make their own way) it's starting to be seen as just as damaging to girls.
posted by fantasticness at 8:49 AM on July 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
Calling a boy "my little prince" is often seen as spoiling him and making him grow up to be a little entitled which was a negative for a boy. Traditionally women were not employed and this meant it was seen as advantage to teach a girl that she deserved to receive things from others like a princess would. But a man was expected to be employed and make his own way and spoiling him had no advantage. If anything it was detrimental. Like many things it likely started out as a positive thing for it's time, but outlived it's usefulness and as times changed (and women were also expected to make their own way) it's starting to be seen as just as damaging to girls.
posted by fantasticness at 8:49 AM on July 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
"But know this, at every moment I am watching myself and actively resisting my ingrained urge to infantilize my daughter and deny her a normal and healthy evolution into mature adulthood."
This is so good. Thank you for posting. Totally agree with jb that it's disturbing how often the "dad with a shotgun on the porch" idea is still presented as healthy and normal - I still haven't figured out a good reaction to that kind of talk and tend to kind of freeze in a pained grimace when someone's talking about their own (often infant or toddler, fer chrissakes) daughter that way. It also sucks how much it colors some of my own memories of my dad - he and I went to a father/daughter dance when I was about 7 and it persists in my memory as both something that was really fun and special to me at the time, but also something disturbingly problematic as I look back with adult eyes. Fuckin' patriarchy ruining everything, feh.
Tangentially related: A young girl I know who likes wearing tiaras and pink dresses reliably answers "royal and mighty" when asked how she is feeling when all dressed up, and she has done more to rehabilitate my view on "princesses" than just about anything else I've ever encountered.
posted by DingoMutt at 9:03 AM on July 9, 2020 [16 favorites]
This is so good. Thank you for posting. Totally agree with jb that it's disturbing how often the "dad with a shotgun on the porch" idea is still presented as healthy and normal - I still haven't figured out a good reaction to that kind of talk and tend to kind of freeze in a pained grimace when someone's talking about their own (often infant or toddler, fer chrissakes) daughter that way. It also sucks how much it colors some of my own memories of my dad - he and I went to a father/daughter dance when I was about 7 and it persists in my memory as both something that was really fun and special to me at the time, but also something disturbingly problematic as I look back with adult eyes. Fuckin' patriarchy ruining everything, feh.
Tangentially related: A young girl I know who likes wearing tiaras and pink dresses reliably answers "royal and mighty" when asked how she is feeling when all dressed up, and she has done more to rehabilitate my view on "princesses" than just about anything else I've ever encountered.
posted by DingoMutt at 9:03 AM on July 9, 2020 [16 favorites]
I really wish this had been a thing back when I was 17 and my father literally used the shotgun/shovel line with my then-boyfriend, which put me in the position of detaching from my dad in order to stay with and shield my (emotionally supportive, actually pretty amazing) partner, who I really needed in my life at that moment and who deserved nothing but kindness. If anything, my father should have been thanking him for more or less keeping me alive through a major depressive episode.
(To add to the fucked-up-ness, my dad was also, at that time, going around bragging about how my 13-year-old younger brother was "great with ladies" and "never without a girlfriend.")
Through that incident and many others, my dad had made it clear that he was never going to see me an individual with agency, as opposed to a generic placeholder for daughter. So it wasn't like I could rely on him for emotional support, let alone let him near anyone I cared about, either as a teenager or as an adult.
His attitude made me think, for years, that anyone who said they were interested in me was either using me, or, if they seemed really, genuinely interested, had low self-esteem and didn't realize that they could do better. Which is to say, it meant I was also disregarding the feelings and individuality of other people; I owe a lot of folks apologies I will never be able to deliver. Boy did that fuck up how I approached relationships for a long-ass time, including accepting shitty behavior from not-great partners, because I was resigned to the idea that people just use women for sex, cast them aside, and never really see or care about them—that's just how it is.
I should have questioned all of that sooner. I should also have questioned the fact that my dad was basing things on "what he was like as a teenager," without his ever stopping to question whether it was okay or normal for him to have been like that as a teenager, or to do some of the things he did as an adult.
Anyhow, thanks for sharing this. It was kind of reassuring and I really hope that parents and attitudes are beginning to change.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 9:24 AM on July 9, 2020 [31 favorites]
(To add to the fucked-up-ness, my dad was also, at that time, going around bragging about how my 13-year-old younger brother was "great with ladies" and "never without a girlfriend.")
Through that incident and many others, my dad had made it clear that he was never going to see me an individual with agency, as opposed to a generic placeholder for daughter. So it wasn't like I could rely on him for emotional support, let alone let him near anyone I cared about, either as a teenager or as an adult.
His attitude made me think, for years, that anyone who said they were interested in me was either using me, or, if they seemed really, genuinely interested, had low self-esteem and didn't realize that they could do better. Which is to say, it meant I was also disregarding the feelings and individuality of other people; I owe a lot of folks apologies I will never be able to deliver. Boy did that fuck up how I approached relationships for a long-ass time, including accepting shitty behavior from not-great partners, because I was resigned to the idea that people just use women for sex, cast them aside, and never really see or care about them—that's just how it is.
I should have questioned all of that sooner. I should also have questioned the fact that my dad was basing things on "what he was like as a teenager," without his ever stopping to question whether it was okay or normal for him to have been like that as a teenager, or to do some of the things he did as an adult.
Anyhow, thanks for sharing this. It was kind of reassuring and I really hope that parents and attitudes are beginning to change.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 9:24 AM on July 9, 2020 [31 favorites]
This was nice and I'm glad this kind of thing is around now so that dads can do better. My dad's thing was just simply that no one should date, no matter who they are or who they want to see or even how old they are. I was like 25 & living at home and finally managed to stumble across my very first boyfriend and even THAT was an unspeakable embarrassment & what, threat to the household? I simply do not understand what the point of it is supposed to be.
posted by bleep at 9:38 AM on July 9, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by bleep at 9:38 AM on July 9, 2020 [8 favorites]
I had to get into the habit of purposefully reminding myself when I hear people talking about their relationships that dating is healthy & relationships are good, and I still do it even now that I am married. It's like some kind of mind disease.
posted by bleep at 9:44 AM on July 9, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by bleep at 9:44 AM on July 9, 2020 [9 favorites]
"RETURN CORN"
posted by Bob Regular at 9:56 AM on July 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Bob Regular at 9:56 AM on July 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
It's really heartwarming to see the openness and sharing that this post created. Thank you all.
posted by foxywombat at 10:18 AM on July 9, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by foxywombat at 10:18 AM on July 9, 2020 [4 favorites]
Hoo boy, that was a trip down memory lane. As a father of two great beings with extra X chromosomes, it is all that and more. It begins and ends with unconditional love, but there is stretch where you might begin to wonder. At some point in their 20's they realize you and your spouse might actually understand a thing or two, and then you can get reacquainted using indoor voices.
I do think the corn got short shrift in the narrative, though. I feel there is a story there.
posted by skippyhacker at 2:30 PM on July 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
I do think the corn got short shrift in the narrative, though. I feel there is a story there.
posted by skippyhacker at 2:30 PM on July 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
"dad with a shotgun on the porch"
Above my desk at home, I have a collection of framed photographs. There is one (not sharing 'cause it's private & personal) that we refer to as "Waiting for the Girls to Come Home". It is a photo of my grandfather & grandmother (maternal side) sitting on the stoop of the house waiting for my mum and 5 sisters (my aunts) to come home. Yes, this is completely anecdotal!
My grand ma is the one with the long gun in her hands. She looks strong and resolute. Grand pa looks relaxed, with his straw hat, weekend shirt, tie and best shoes. But he has one hand on his cheek. Like, "Oh my! Is she actually going to shoot someone?"
No humans or small forest animals were subjected to harm during the making of this photograph.
posted by shoesfullofdust at 4:40 PM on July 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
Above my desk at home, I have a collection of framed photographs. There is one (not sharing 'cause it's private & personal) that we refer to as "Waiting for the Girls to Come Home". It is a photo of my grandfather & grandmother (maternal side) sitting on the stoop of the house waiting for my mum and 5 sisters (my aunts) to come home. Yes, this is completely anecdotal!
My grand ma is the one with the long gun in her hands. She looks strong and resolute. Grand pa looks relaxed, with his straw hat, weekend shirt, tie and best shoes. But he has one hand on his cheek. Like, "Oh my! Is she actually going to shoot someone?"
No humans or small forest animals were subjected to harm during the making of this photograph.
posted by shoesfullofdust at 4:40 PM on July 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
Princess Smartypants was on high rotation at bedtime in our house during little ms. flabdablet's princess phase. At 15, she's a force to be reckoned with and completely capable of sorting the good ones from the duds.
posted by flabdablet at 4:54 PM on July 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 4:54 PM on July 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
Skirts get in the way of a lot of hijinks. Poor Charlotte Windsor is only ever seen in a dress. I wonder if she knows she's a princess, because tiara, satin, high heels etc.
I couldn't access complete story, but lucky for me, my father died when I was nine before he could share more of his misogynistic women aren't quite human views. Lucky for my daughter (but she's still working through it in therapy) her father was completely disinterested in both kids and absent even when he was there. Fuck the patriarchy.
posted by b33j at 5:10 PM on July 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
I couldn't access complete story, but lucky for me, my father died when I was nine before he could share more of his misogynistic women aren't quite human views. Lucky for my daughter (but she's still working through it in therapy) her father was completely disinterested in both kids and absent even when he was there. Fuck the patriarchy.
posted by b33j at 5:10 PM on July 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
I am (assuming everything goes well) going to be a father to a daughter in a few months. I've been trying to find some resources, and I've found a bunch of generic stuff about being a dad. Resources about being a dad to a daughter, however, seem to be overwhelmingly Christian. Even the ones that aren't have a really weird, borderline creepy "men and women can't be friends" vibe. Like, a bunch of them recommend making sure you spend time alone with your daughter, not just mediated through her mother, and I agree! But surely I can't be alone in thinking it's pretty weird to refer to that as "dating" your daughter.
posted by Ragged Richard at 6:00 PM on July 9, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by Ragged Richard at 6:00 PM on July 9, 2020 [5 favorites]
Ragged Richard: there are better resources if you look for generic advice to fathers/parents. I started reading the Dad's Guide to Pregnancy for Dummies and I really liked it - more than most pregnancy material for women. I think there's one for the first year, too.
posted by jb at 7:06 PM on July 9, 2020
posted by jb at 7:06 PM on July 9, 2020
Also, Ragged Richard, you could just simply get to know your daughter as a person and relate to her that way. Speaking as the daughter of a father who did simply that, you have no idea how profound that can be.
....Also, the old Free To Be You And Me album can't hurt either.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:12 PM on July 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
....Also, the old Free To Be You And Me album can't hurt either.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:12 PM on July 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
Also, Ragged Richard, you could just simply get to know your daughter as a person and relate to her that way. Speaking as the daughter of a father who did simply that, you have no idea how profound that can be.
That's the plan! Just, you know, trying to prepare, and we've all got a lot of extra time to read these days.
posted by Ragged Richard at 7:34 PM on July 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
That's the plan! Just, you know, trying to prepare, and we've all got a lot of extra time to read these days.
posted by Ragged Richard at 7:34 PM on July 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
Keen. I also realize, upon reading, that my last comment sounded a little snarky (at least it sounds like that to me), so apologies as snark was absolutely NOT the way I intended that to sound!
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:08 AM on July 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:08 AM on July 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
Dads, man. A few years ago (I was around 30), I was camping in Alaska and I texted my dad a photo of a bald eagle that was glaring down from its perch above our cabin. He responded, "Looks like me waiting up for you to come home from a date."
Lol dad humor, right? But my parents have been divorced since I was 5 and I grew up living in a different state from my dad, so he has literally never once in his life waited up for me to come home from a date, and he never met any of my high school or college boyfriends. But this idea is STILL fundamental to his understanding of our father-daughter relationship somehow.
I loved the corn.
posted by naoko at 6:32 AM on July 10, 2020 [6 favorites]
Lol dad humor, right? But my parents have been divorced since I was 5 and I grew up living in a different state from my dad, so he has literally never once in his life waited up for me to come home from a date, and he never met any of my high school or college boyfriends. But this idea is STILL fundamental to his understanding of our father-daughter relationship somehow.
I loved the corn.
posted by naoko at 6:32 AM on July 10, 2020 [6 favorites]
Also, the old Free To Be You And Me album can't hurt either.
That's what my wife and I thought. "This will be a fun thing to listen to on our car trip with our grade school girls. And maybe give us something to talk about!"
Our daughters were outraged. They had literally never encountered the ideas that girls can't run or climb or throw balls as good as boys do until Free To Be You And Me brought them up to be refuted. I feel like they spent hours interrupting each other with rants about how unfair and wrong ("We can both climb way better than...") it was.
posted by straight at 10:00 AM on July 10, 2020 [6 favorites]
That's what my wife and I thought. "This will be a fun thing to listen to on our car trip with our grade school girls. And maybe give us something to talk about!"
Our daughters were outraged. They had literally never encountered the ideas that girls can't run or climb or throw balls as good as boys do until Free To Be You And Me brought them up to be refuted. I feel like they spent hours interrupting each other with rants about how unfair and wrong ("We can both climb way better than...") it was.
posted by straight at 10:00 AM on July 10, 2020 [6 favorites]
Our daughters were outraged. They had literally never encountered the ideas that girls can't run or climb or throw balls as good as boys do until Free To Be You And Me brought them up to be refuted. I feel like they spent hours interrupting each other with rants about how unfair and wrong ("We can both climb way better than...") it was.
That's kind of the point, oddly - because the notion of girls being more delicate comes about through societal culture and training. I'm old enough to remember that in grade school, whenever the teachers needed some chairs moved or something like that, they would knee-jerk ask for "some boys to come help me move these chairs" or whatever.
Ordinarily, talking back to a teacher is tricky, because it's, like, your teacher. So a girl who heard again and again and again and again a request to "the boys" to help with heavy lifting runs the risk of subconsciously getting the "boys are strong and girls aren't" message. However, if you counter that with the "girls are just as strong as boys" message from FTBYAM, those girls now realize that "hang on, we're just as strong too," and are better at calling out the teacher on that kind of thing. At least, that's how it went down when I was in grade school and Mrs. M always asked for "some of the boys" to help her move chairs - everyone in my class also had a copy of FTBYAM, and we would all immediately protest "hey, girls can help too!" and Mrs. M would apologize, and even started asking for "boys or girls to help" towards the end of the year.
Little girls know they're strong, but sometimes the rest of society is downplaying that or telling them they shouldn't be. FTBYAM affirms that instead.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:20 AM on July 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
That's kind of the point, oddly - because the notion of girls being more delicate comes about through societal culture and training. I'm old enough to remember that in grade school, whenever the teachers needed some chairs moved or something like that, they would knee-jerk ask for "some boys to come help me move these chairs" or whatever.
Ordinarily, talking back to a teacher is tricky, because it's, like, your teacher. So a girl who heard again and again and again and again a request to "the boys" to help with heavy lifting runs the risk of subconsciously getting the "boys are strong and girls aren't" message. However, if you counter that with the "girls are just as strong as boys" message from FTBYAM, those girls now realize that "hang on, we're just as strong too," and are better at calling out the teacher on that kind of thing. At least, that's how it went down when I was in grade school and Mrs. M always asked for "some of the boys" to help her move chairs - everyone in my class also had a copy of FTBYAM, and we would all immediately protest "hey, girls can help too!" and Mrs. M would apologize, and even started asking for "boys or girls to help" towards the end of the year.
Little girls know they're strong, but sometimes the rest of society is downplaying that or telling them they shouldn't be. FTBYAM affirms that instead.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:20 AM on July 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
Sure, F2BYAM still holds up as rejecting sexist stereotypes and limits on what girls can/should do. It's just ironic that F2BYAM was itself the first one to tell them that some people think girls can't do athletic things as well as boys. And kind of great that they didn't need a song to help them refute the idea from their own experience.
posted by straight at 12:46 PM on July 10, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by straight at 12:46 PM on July 10, 2020 [3 favorites]
Poor Charlotte Windsor is only ever seen in a dress.
She's really not. I mean more than I would put a child of her age in a dress, for sure, but she wears normal clothes to do normal things.
posted by plonkee at 3:21 PM on July 10, 2020 [2 favorites]
She's really not. I mean more than I would put a child of her age in a dress, for sure, but she wears normal clothes to do normal things.
posted by plonkee at 3:21 PM on July 10, 2020 [2 favorites]
Our daughters were outraged. They had literally never encountered the ideas that girls can't run or climb or throw balls as good as boys do until Free To Be You And Me brought them up to be refuted.
So I have a three year old son, who as far as I know has never been exposed to these ideas in any explicit way, though he's lived in our society, obviously. I make a point of keeping his library gender-balanced (even if that means regendering some characters) and of reading keepnig his 4 nightly bed-time books gender-balanced each night. I don't bother keeping track of the books we read though the day because that would just be too hard.
But I'm conflicted about what to do about books written specifically to counter gender stereotypes. e.g. Jamie is Jamie. I'm not sure I want to read him people saying "Only boys can play with action figures!" even if the ultimate point is to counter that idea. So far I've been skipping any normative statements about gender when I read the book.
I remember reading in NurtureShock that kids who watch more educational TV are more socially-aggressive (i.e. teasing/exclusion) than kids who watch less, with one hypothesis being that the shows often show wrong behaviour with the goal of kids ultimately learning their lesson/reconciling (think berenstain bears type books), but since it's 20 minutes of bad behaviour and 5 minutes of resolution, the resolution can fly over little kids' heads. So I worry about that with this kind of thing. Do I want to expose him to the stereotypes he's never heard before just so I can counter them, possibly less effectively than leaving him unexposed?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:37 PM on July 11, 2020 [5 favorites]
So I have a three year old son, who as far as I know has never been exposed to these ideas in any explicit way, though he's lived in our society, obviously. I make a point of keeping his library gender-balanced (even if that means regendering some characters) and of reading keepnig his 4 nightly bed-time books gender-balanced each night. I don't bother keeping track of the books we read though the day because that would just be too hard.
But I'm conflicted about what to do about books written specifically to counter gender stereotypes. e.g. Jamie is Jamie. I'm not sure I want to read him people saying "Only boys can play with action figures!" even if the ultimate point is to counter that idea. So far I've been skipping any normative statements about gender when I read the book.
I remember reading in NurtureShock that kids who watch more educational TV are more socially-aggressive (i.e. teasing/exclusion) than kids who watch less, with one hypothesis being that the shows often show wrong behaviour with the goal of kids ultimately learning their lesson/reconciling (think berenstain bears type books), but since it's 20 minutes of bad behaviour and 5 minutes of resolution, the resolution can fly over little kids' heads. So I worry about that with this kind of thing. Do I want to expose him to the stereotypes he's never heard before just so I can counter them, possibly less effectively than leaving him unexposed?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:37 PM on July 11, 2020 [5 favorites]
When I grew up, kids where I lived were much less gendered than today. I have a fond memory of being at the family farm with my cousin and his best friend. We were probably 7-8 years old and we all had long hair. The memory is of my aunt washing all our hair and braiding it, and then "dressing us up" in the same pink t-shirts and Osh-Kosh overalls. She thought it was hilarious, my gran was pleased that we were all clean at the same time, and we just enjoyed the attention and care, then ran out to play together as usual.
We read Astrid Lindgren books, where boys and girls are different, but equal.
Even at the English private schools I attended at the time, where boys and girls had different uniforms, there was very little gendering in the communication or activities. I've begun to think this was a deliberate choice by my mother, because it was clearly a bubble situation. Lots of people my age have completely different experiences, and I was shocked when I met a different reality at 10.
When my own eldest daughter was born, I really tried to raise her in the same way, but she quickly became a total princess. I've later realized that her dad really wanted it that way, and while I didn't notice at the time, he influenced her in many ways. BUT, she will take no BS. She may appear at the first glance to be very feminine and demure but she is assertive and outgoing and very much in control of her life.
My second daughter has a different dad who is much more on the same page as me, and I can recognize her experience of growing up in a gender neutral setting and then meeting the rest of the world. To me she seems like an independent and strong person with no patience for gendered preconceptions.
All of this anecdote is to say that I think you can only do so much as a parent, because the world is out there with all of its assumptions about gender. But what you can do is expose your children to a multitude of role models and possible futures. And you can give them space to be who they are. Let them pretend to be what they want to be, wether it is star troopers or princesses. But don't go in and stage them either way. My youngest was Piglet for several years on end and also had the largest kinder egg collection in the neighborhood, which was otherwise seen as a boyish thing.
posted by mumimor at 2:20 PM on July 11, 2020
We read Astrid Lindgren books, where boys and girls are different, but equal.
Even at the English private schools I attended at the time, where boys and girls had different uniforms, there was very little gendering in the communication or activities. I've begun to think this was a deliberate choice by my mother, because it was clearly a bubble situation. Lots of people my age have completely different experiences, and I was shocked when I met a different reality at 10.
When my own eldest daughter was born, I really tried to raise her in the same way, but she quickly became a total princess. I've later realized that her dad really wanted it that way, and while I didn't notice at the time, he influenced her in many ways. BUT, she will take no BS. She may appear at the first glance to be very feminine and demure but she is assertive and outgoing and very much in control of her life.
My second daughter has a different dad who is much more on the same page as me, and I can recognize her experience of growing up in a gender neutral setting and then meeting the rest of the world. To me she seems like an independent and strong person with no patience for gendered preconceptions.
All of this anecdote is to say that I think you can only do so much as a parent, because the world is out there with all of its assumptions about gender. But what you can do is expose your children to a multitude of role models and possible futures. And you can give them space to be who they are. Let them pretend to be what they want to be, wether it is star troopers or princesses. But don't go in and stage them either way. My youngest was Piglet for several years on end and also had the largest kinder egg collection in the neighborhood, which was otherwise seen as a boyish thing.
posted by mumimor at 2:20 PM on July 11, 2020
I remember reading in NurtureShock that kids who watch more educational TV are more socially-aggressive (i.e. teasing/exclusion) than kids who watch less, with one hypothesis being that the shows often show wrong behaviour with the goal of kids ultimately learning their lesson/reconciling (think berenstain bears type books), but since it's 20 minutes of bad behaviour and 5 minutes of resolution, the resolution can fly over little kids' heads.
Oh wow that's basically the justification I use to limit the shows my kid gets to watch; sweet, sweet vindication!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 4:30 PM on July 11, 2020 [4 favorites]
Oh wow that's basically the justification I use to limit the shows my kid gets to watch; sweet, sweet vindication!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 4:30 PM on July 11, 2020 [4 favorites]
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posted by 445supermag at 7:44 AM on July 9, 2020 [1 favorite]