UNESCO World Heritage Site
July 11, 2020 1:40 PM Subscribe
Turkey turning Hagia Sophia back into mosque Hagia Sophia was built as a cathedral in the Christian Byzantine Empire and was converted into a mosque after the Ottoman Empire conquered Constantinople in 1453 and changed the city's name to Istanbul.
I was so dismayed to see this news. I don't have a handle on Turkish politics but this feels ominous to say the least.
posted by LobsterMitten at 2:07 PM on July 11, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten at 2:07 PM on July 11, 2020 [9 favorites]
Nationalism fucks everything.
posted by acb at 2:36 PM on July 11, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by acb at 2:36 PM on July 11, 2020 [9 favorites]
changed the city's name to Istanbul.
Pedantry alert. It's a little more involved, as things tend to be in that part of the world. Or all parts, I suppose.
posted by BWA at 2:37 PM on July 11, 2020 [7 favorites]
Pedantry alert. It's a little more involved, as things tend to be in that part of the world. Or all parts, I suppose.
posted by BWA at 2:37 PM on July 11, 2020 [7 favorites]
This post could do with a little context about Turkish politics right now. I'm not really expert enough to supply it.
posted by Nelson at 3:16 PM on July 11, 2020
posted by Nelson at 3:16 PM on July 11, 2020
I am going to get this out of the way early.
Pedantry alert. It's a little more involved, as things tend to be in that part of the world. Or all parts, I suppose.
I guess it was always public record why Istanbul became Constantinople, and not nobody's business but the Turks after all. People are so shy of doing a little research.
posted by HypotheticalWoman at 3:38 PM on July 11, 2020 [16 favorites]
Pedantry alert. It's a little more involved, as things tend to be in that part of the world. Or all parts, I suppose.
I guess it was always public record why Istanbul became Constantinople, and not nobody's business but the Turks after all. People are so shy of doing a little research.
posted by HypotheticalWoman at 3:38 PM on July 11, 2020 [16 favorites]
Smithsonian Article (2008) about preserving and maintaining a complicated 900 year old monument.
posted by ovvl at 4:45 PM on July 11, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by ovvl at 4:45 PM on July 11, 2020 [4 favorites]
Nationalism fucks everything.
I am in pretty strong agreement with this statement most of the time. It was the secular nationalism of Ataturk that saved Asia Minor from partition and created a modern and forward-looking progressive identity for the Turks.
This new thing they are doing seems a rejection of that, harkening back to the Ottoman period, an explicit state position for promotion of Islam, and stickign their fingers in the old Imperial territories.
Sucks, and in the longer term going to not work out well. If we are turning back the clock and seeing things through a religious lens, the Orthodox Christians of Russia and elsewhere have strong opinions on Constantinople.
posted by Meatbomb at 4:53 PM on July 11, 2020 [11 favorites]
I am in pretty strong agreement with this statement most of the time. It was the secular nationalism of Ataturk that saved Asia Minor from partition and created a modern and forward-looking progressive identity for the Turks.
This new thing they are doing seems a rejection of that, harkening back to the Ottoman period, an explicit state position for promotion of Islam, and stickign their fingers in the old Imperial territories.
Sucks, and in the longer term going to not work out well. If we are turning back the clock and seeing things through a religious lens, the Orthodox Christians of Russia and elsewhere have strong opinions on Constantinople.
posted by Meatbomb at 4:53 PM on July 11, 2020 [11 favorites]
'Midnight at the Pera Palace: The Birth of Modern Istanbul' is a non-fiction book by Charles King. It has an interesting chapter about the renovation (1931-1935) of the Hagia Sophia (restorers were able to remove the plaster coatings without damaging (too much) the mirror-backed coloured glass mosaic tiles, which have an unearthly effect in certain daylights).
All of the other chapters discuss the politics of Turkey's relationship with the rest of Europe in the 20th century. It's not contemp, but if anyone needs starter background..
posted by ovvl at 4:55 PM on July 11, 2020 [9 favorites]
All of the other chapters discuss the politics of Turkey's relationship with the rest of Europe in the 20th century. It's not contemp, but if anyone needs starter background..
posted by ovvl at 4:55 PM on July 11, 2020 [9 favorites]
New York Times take on the the presidential decree and about what the future might look like.
posted by TRAJAN at 4:55 PM on July 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by TRAJAN at 4:55 PM on July 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
The spirit of the Ottomans have been revived in the hearts of the Turks.
What could possibly go wrong?
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:15 PM on July 11, 2020 [4 favorites]
What could possibly go wrong?
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:15 PM on July 11, 2020 [4 favorites]
I think there's a missing piece of information here that might help those of us not familiar with the subject, which I found in the linked to article: Haiga Sophia had been turned into a museum in 1934, prior to which time it had been an active mosque.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 5:42 PM on July 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 5:42 PM on July 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
I am curious about what this really means for public access and conservation of the building. Istanbul has several beautiful, old working mosques like Süleymaniye and Sultan Ahmet that are open to the public so long as you’re dressed appropriately, and similar to, say, St. Patrick’s or the Cathedral at Rheims except that the mosque are only open to worshippers when services are in session. I can imagine that there are some subtler dog whistles involved in this, but beyond that I wonder what the actual impact is for folks. It might just mean it’s the same place except, it’s closed to the public during prayer times.
(It always feels weird to be attending services at a Christian cathedral while tourists are walking about. Feels like being part of the exhibit.)
posted by bl1nk at 6:19 PM on July 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
(It always feels weird to be attending services at a Christian cathedral while tourists are walking about. Feels like being part of the exhibit.)
posted by bl1nk at 6:19 PM on July 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
Haiga Sophia had been turned into a museum in 1934, prior to which time it had been an active mosque.
Here's a bit more of the history: Why is there controversy over Turkey declaring Hagia Sophia a mosque?
It was originally a very significant church: the largest, and perhaps the most important one in the world; the seat of Orthodox Christianity. It was turned into a mosque by Mehmet II as a bit of Muslim triumphalism, and under Ataturk was turned into a museum as a symbolic act of secularism, as part of which the icons etc. were uncovered and restored. I presume now they may be covered over again? In any event, this is another act of symbolism: Erdoğan is undoing the secularism of the Turkish republic and making Turkey less ecumenical and more Islamic.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:10 PM on July 11, 2020 [14 favorites]
Here's a bit more of the history: Why is there controversy over Turkey declaring Hagia Sophia a mosque?
It was originally a very significant church: the largest, and perhaps the most important one in the world; the seat of Orthodox Christianity. It was turned into a mosque by Mehmet II as a bit of Muslim triumphalism, and under Ataturk was turned into a museum as a symbolic act of secularism, as part of which the icons etc. were uncovered and restored. I presume now they may be covered over again? In any event, this is another act of symbolism: Erdoğan is undoing the secularism of the Turkish republic and making Turkey less ecumenical and more Islamic.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:10 PM on July 11, 2020 [14 favorites]
Fewer joke-y comments in this thread would be great.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:29 PM on July 11, 2020 [21 favorites]
posted by Chrysostom at 8:29 PM on July 11, 2020 [21 favorites]
I was there last year on a church trip. It was immensely sad and beautiful to go into because the icons that have remained and been restored give a hint to what it must've looked like as a church. I'm orthodox so this is - it was a mosque but it was a church far longer.
We visited one church that had been converted into a mosque and it was really hard because it had to be reshaped internally to work as a mosque and things covered or removed and it felt just - awkward and wrong, like a rented building. The abandoned churches felt more honest. The mosques built as mosques felt more true.
The issue of faith in Istanbul is so hugely complicated because of deliberate genocide, suppression and exodus on almost all sides - there are no "good"/"bad" people, just a relentless churning of history over a very small, highly sought after space. The ecumenical secular approach seems the wisest because at least then people can co-exist.
This is not history restored - much as I would wish the Hagia Sofia to be a church again, too much time has passed. It should have stayed a museum for all.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:38 PM on July 11, 2020 [12 favorites]
We visited one church that had been converted into a mosque and it was really hard because it had to be reshaped internally to work as a mosque and things covered or removed and it felt just - awkward and wrong, like a rented building. The abandoned churches felt more honest. The mosques built as mosques felt more true.
The issue of faith in Istanbul is so hugely complicated because of deliberate genocide, suppression and exodus on almost all sides - there are no "good"/"bad" people, just a relentless churning of history over a very small, highly sought after space. The ecumenical secular approach seems the wisest because at least then people can co-exist.
This is not history restored - much as I would wish the Hagia Sofia to be a church again, too much time has passed. It should have stayed a museum for all.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:38 PM on July 11, 2020 [12 favorites]
And it's not just a big church building. It was the absolute center of the Orthodox church and is still beloved by all of us. This is like taking St Pauls in Vatican City and converting it into a museum or mosque. It's been 500 years, but the orthodox church still holds it as crucial. There are other active orthodox churches in Turkey but because the base there is now so small, I was told services are often just a handful of people.
I really, really want to see what the Russian press makes of this.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:42 PM on July 11, 2020 [4 favorites]
I really, really want to see what the Russian press makes of this.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:42 PM on July 11, 2020 [4 favorites]
Turning old churches into mosques is also a nod to the nationalist MHP coalition partners of Erdogan's AKP party, who like to do things like pray in ancient Armenian churches and welcome decisions like this that diminish secular policies or acknowledgment of the once-abundant diversity of cultures that have made Turkey what it is.
posted by Theiform at 9:48 PM on July 11, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by Theiform at 9:48 PM on July 11, 2020 [5 favorites]
Mod note: Deleted earlier "will admission be free" troll-y comment.
posted by taz (staff) at 2:32 AM on July 12, 2020
posted by taz (staff) at 2:32 AM on July 12, 2020
Along with building this huge new mosque in Istanbul, turning the Haiga Sophia back into a mosque is to appeal to Erdoğan's poor, working class Muslim base, and part of his continuing shift away from Turkey's secular origins.
If you've access to BBC iplayer, these are quite a good couple of programmes on Turkey by Simon Reeve, contextualising Erdoğan's move away from secularism as a repositiong of Turkey as the bridge between the Middle East and Europe.
posted by Faff at 3:18 AM on July 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
If you've access to BBC iplayer, these are quite a good couple of programmes on Turkey by Simon Reeve, contextualising Erdoğan's move away from secularism as a repositiong of Turkey as the bridge between the Middle East and Europe.
posted by Faff at 3:18 AM on July 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
a repositiong of Turkey as the bridge between the Middle East and Europe
Strongly disagree - this was the role Turkey was / could have played by showing that a majority Muslim country could also be secular in governance, now they are turning away. Europe's dithering over the last 30 years hasn't helped either, seems like that opportunity has passed.
posted by Meatbomb at 5:00 AM on July 12, 2020 [5 favorites]
Strongly disagree - this was the role Turkey was / could have played by showing that a majority Muslim country could also be secular in governance, now they are turning away. Europe's dithering over the last 30 years hasn't helped either, seems like that opportunity has passed.
posted by Meatbomb at 5:00 AM on July 12, 2020 [5 favorites]
the icons etc. were uncovered and restored. I presume now they may be covered over again?
Curtains during services, from what I read. So not the pre-Ataturk plaster.
posted by BWA at 6:26 AM on July 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
Curtains during services, from what I read. So not the pre-Ataturk plaster.
posted by BWA at 6:26 AM on July 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
Strongly disagree
Not saying that's what's happening, just that's what Erdoğan's trying to do. Post WW II Turkey became very European/Western focused, possibly to the detriment of their relationships with their middle Eastern neighbors. A majority Muslim country could also be secular in governance is great from a European point of view, but far less so to a middle Eastern one.
Erdoğan's currently trying to move the pendulum back the other way, but how far that needs to be to achieve balance probably rather depends on which side of the Bosporus you stand.
posted by Faff at 6:53 AM on July 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
Not saying that's what's happening, just that's what Erdoğan's trying to do. Post WW II Turkey became very European/Western focused, possibly to the detriment of their relationships with their middle Eastern neighbors. A majority Muslim country could also be secular in governance is great from a European point of view, but far less so to a middle Eastern one.
Erdoğan's currently trying to move the pendulum back the other way, but how far that needs to be to achieve balance probably rather depends on which side of the Bosporus you stand.
posted by Faff at 6:53 AM on July 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
I'm feeling selfish - I am neither Muslim or Orthodox (or any kind of Christian) but I love ancient and medieval art, and would so love to see the mosaics and dome of the Hagia Sophia. I have heard so much about them, but never gotten to see them.
I know the political implications for this act are much more serious - and Erdoğan is bad for Turkey in so many ways (I've met many political / religious refugees from Turkey recently). But my selfish bit wishes I could have the chance to see the art before anything happens to it.
posted by jb at 11:19 AM on July 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
I know the political implications for this act are much more serious - and Erdoğan is bad for Turkey in so many ways (I've met many political / religious refugees from Turkey recently). But my selfish bit wishes I could have the chance to see the art before anything happens to it.
posted by jb at 11:19 AM on July 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
I think non-Muslims should be careful here. Hagia Sophia is important to many Christians, great. But it was a mosque for five centuries, and Atatürk's decision is not necessarily better than Erdoğan's.
These things are awkward, but I'd remind people that it goes both ways— e.g. the gorgeous Mosque of Córdoba, turned into a cathedral during the Reconquista.
posted by zompist at 2:40 PM on July 12, 2020 [9 favorites]
These things are awkward, but I'd remind people that it goes both ways— e.g. the gorgeous Mosque of Córdoba, turned into a cathedral during the Reconquista.
posted by zompist at 2:40 PM on July 12, 2020 [9 favorites]
Would it be theoretically possible for a building to double as a cathedral and a mosque, with the congregations time-sharing it?
posted by acb at 3:28 PM on July 12, 2020
posted by acb at 3:28 PM on July 12, 2020
Acb: Would it be theoretically possible for a building to double as a cathedral and a mosque, with the congregations time-sharing it?
This isn't some sort of ecumenical thing. I mean, considered as a mosque it's poorly laid out, has awkward iconography, and would be expensive to maintain. Similar objections would apply to using it as a cathedral, but there's no prospect of that because the point of this exercise is to make a public statement about the role of Islam in Turkey.
Zompist: These things are awkward, but I'd remind people that it goes both ways— e.g. the gorgeous Mosque of Córdoba, turned into a cathedral during the Reconquista.
Absolutely. Also, e.g., the Synagogue of Santa María la Blanca, which was made into a church and is now a museum. People don't do these things because they need the real estate: it's to show that their religion is more powerful.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:59 PM on July 12, 2020 [5 favorites]
This isn't some sort of ecumenical thing. I mean, considered as a mosque it's poorly laid out, has awkward iconography, and would be expensive to maintain. Similar objections would apply to using it as a cathedral, but there's no prospect of that because the point of this exercise is to make a public statement about the role of Islam in Turkey.
Zompist: These things are awkward, but I'd remind people that it goes both ways— e.g. the gorgeous Mosque of Córdoba, turned into a cathedral during the Reconquista.
Absolutely. Also, e.g., the Synagogue of Santa María la Blanca, which was made into a church and is now a museum. People don't do these things because they need the real estate: it's to show that their religion is more powerful.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:59 PM on July 12, 2020 [5 favorites]
See also: Christianity in pagan Europe, rededicating holy sites as churches, co-opting gods as patron saints and festivals as holy days, etc.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:05 PM on July 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:05 PM on July 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
Yeah, my first exposure to this sort of thing was as an angry young polytheist (I was about 10) learning about conversion of the Pantheon into a Christian church back in 609. Nobody could understand why I was so mad about something that happened so long ago...
This sort of thing is gross whoever does it, but this doesn't seem particularly uniquely gross. Indeed, it's arguably less gross than many other cases (Pantheon, Córdoba, etc.), given that Hagia Sophia has considerably more history as a mosque than as a secular site.
Do people see this as a sign of strength or weakness on Erdoğan's part?
posted by Not A Thing at 9:50 PM on July 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
This sort of thing is gross whoever does it, but this doesn't seem particularly uniquely gross. Indeed, it's arguably less gross than many other cases (Pantheon, Córdoba, etc.), given that Hagia Sophia has considerably more history as a mosque than as a secular site.
Do people see this as a sign of strength or weakness on Erdoğan's part?
posted by Not A Thing at 9:50 PM on July 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
Wow, it's amazing how understanding Americans are about the wholessale butchery of other people by a non-American empire in a non-American part of the world. Guess it's OK - they were mostly white.
posted by doggod at 2:34 AM on July 13, 2020
posted by doggod at 2:34 AM on July 13, 2020
I think non-Muslims should be careful here. Hagia Sophia is important to many Christians, great. But it was a mosque for five centuries, and Atatürk's decision is not necessarily better than Erdoğan's.
These things are awkward, but I'd remind people that it goes both ways— e.g. the gorgeous Mosque of Córdoba, turned into a cathedral during the Reconquista.
Tosh.
Why should non-Muslims be particularly careful? If anything, people who aren't Orthodox (including people who are Muslims) should be particularly careful.
The mosque which is now a church in Córdoba is very nice but it has never been the most important religious site for anyone. I'm sure that the conversion of the Pantheon was deeply upsetting to many people at the time but there are not many millions of Roman polytheists around today to be upset about it. One might just as well be upset at the conversion of the Kaaba from a polytheistic temple to a place of pilgrimage for Muslims.
Orthodox people are not asking and never have asked in substantial numbers to have it back as a church (although it's not wholly clear to me that this would be unjust so much as unrealistic) but at least as museum it wasn't being used as a place of worship by the people who conquered them, ruled them, and then a century ago exterminated them.
If you're going to make comparisons:
-Relative importance matters, the centre of Orthodox Christianity for a millennium is not equivalent to a mosque, however nice, at the very periphery of the Muslim world.
-Time matters, something that happened 500 years ago is likely to be more sensitive than something that happened 1500 years ago.
-Is anyone still around to care? Yes in the case of Santa Maria la Blanca or the Hagia Sofia. No in the case of the Pantheon or the Kaaba.
I'm not so naive as to believe that there is some particular year where everyone deserved all the land and buildings they had at that instant and that we somehow need to reset the world to that point and unwind all conquest everywhere. First because it's unrealistic and second because almost everyone is sitting on land that changed hands in a violent way at some point in the past.
That being said, this is gross religious triumphalism intended to shore up domestic political support, before you go around saying it's not a big deal, ask yourself if you're comfortable being a "what aboutist" in general or only in some circumstances.
posted by atrazine at 2:41 AM on July 13, 2020 [7 favorites]
These things are awkward, but I'd remind people that it goes both ways— e.g. the gorgeous Mosque of Córdoba, turned into a cathedral during the Reconquista.
Tosh.
Why should non-Muslims be particularly careful? If anything, people who aren't Orthodox (including people who are Muslims) should be particularly careful.
The mosque which is now a church in Córdoba is very nice but it has never been the most important religious site for anyone. I'm sure that the conversion of the Pantheon was deeply upsetting to many people at the time but there are not many millions of Roman polytheists around today to be upset about it. One might just as well be upset at the conversion of the Kaaba from a polytheistic temple to a place of pilgrimage for Muslims.
Orthodox people are not asking and never have asked in substantial numbers to have it back as a church (although it's not wholly clear to me that this would be unjust so much as unrealistic) but at least as museum it wasn't being used as a place of worship by the people who conquered them, ruled them, and then a century ago exterminated them.
If you're going to make comparisons:
-Relative importance matters, the centre of Orthodox Christianity for a millennium is not equivalent to a mosque, however nice, at the very periphery of the Muslim world.
-Time matters, something that happened 500 years ago is likely to be more sensitive than something that happened 1500 years ago.
-Is anyone still around to care? Yes in the case of Santa Maria la Blanca or the Hagia Sofia. No in the case of the Pantheon or the Kaaba.
I'm not so naive as to believe that there is some particular year where everyone deserved all the land and buildings they had at that instant and that we somehow need to reset the world to that point and unwind all conquest everywhere. First because it's unrealistic and second because almost everyone is sitting on land that changed hands in a violent way at some point in the past.
That being said, this is gross religious triumphalism intended to shore up domestic political support, before you go around saying it's not a big deal, ask yourself if you're comfortable being a "what aboutist" in general or only in some circumstances.
posted by atrazine at 2:41 AM on July 13, 2020 [7 favorites]
Like I said, I'm feeling selfish: I just really want to see the mosaics - and the dome. Whether the space is a church, mosque or museum isn't the point - but given the incompatibility of imagery and Islam (the mosaics were plastered over for 500 years) and (more importantly) the fact that I wouldn't trust Erdogan to take care of a plant I liked, it is concerning in terms of preservation of ancient art.
But more concerning is the message that Erdogan is sending to minorities within Turkey - it's a threat to the secular (but very nationalist) state that Attaturk created. As I mentioned above, I know religious-political refugees from Erdogan's government, who are Sunni Muslim but the wrong flavour for him.
also, what atrazine said.
posted by jb at 6:20 AM on July 13, 2020 [2 favorites]
But more concerning is the message that Erdogan is sending to minorities within Turkey - it's a threat to the secular (but very nationalist) state that Attaturk created. As I mentioned above, I know religious-political refugees from Erdogan's government, who are Sunni Muslim but the wrong flavour for him.
also, what atrazine said.
posted by jb at 6:20 AM on July 13, 2020 [2 favorites]
Indeed, I should have reflected more carefully before injecting my own strongly-held religious opinions into this complex topic.
Are there any trusted commentators on Turkish politics that people would recommend in terms of better understanding the dynamics here?
posted by Not A Thing at 9:11 AM on July 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
Are there any trusted commentators on Turkish politics that people would recommend in terms of better understanding the dynamics here?
posted by Not A Thing at 9:11 AM on July 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
Why should non-Muslims be particularly careful?
Because indulging Islamophobia is not OK. Because a bunch of white people demanding that they decide how things should go in a Muslim country is not OK. Because there is a long history of white Christians, including Orthodox, claiming a right to intervene in Turkey specifically, and dismembering its empire for their convenience.
Also because of common human decency. Think of what a Muslim will get out of this thread: a bunch of non-Muslims ginning up hatreds based on a 500-year-old grudge, or expressing concerns about how it might affect tourism. And dismissing or ignoring similar affronts on Muslim holy places and cultures. (Seriously, the capital of Ottoman Turkey was a "fringe" location? Is being an anti-Muslim troll something you're "comfortable" about?)
I tend to agree that Erdoğan's action is "religious triumphalism"; but then Atatürk's was a thumb in the eye to his own people's religion and culture. As an Orthodox, you might try to think of cases of enforced secularism, say in Russia, and see if that's a policy you're "comfortable" about.
posted by zompist at 4:13 PM on July 13, 2020 [2 favorites]
Because indulging Islamophobia is not OK. Because a bunch of white people demanding that they decide how things should go in a Muslim country is not OK. Because there is a long history of white Christians, including Orthodox, claiming a right to intervene in Turkey specifically, and dismembering its empire for their convenience.
Also because of common human decency. Think of what a Muslim will get out of this thread: a bunch of non-Muslims ginning up hatreds based on a 500-year-old grudge, or expressing concerns about how it might affect tourism. And dismissing or ignoring similar affronts on Muslim holy places and cultures. (Seriously, the capital of Ottoman Turkey was a "fringe" location? Is being an anti-Muslim troll something you're "comfortable" about?)
I tend to agree that Erdoğan's action is "religious triumphalism"; but then Atatürk's was a thumb in the eye to his own people's religion and culture. As an Orthodox, you might try to think of cases of enforced secularism, say in Russia, and see if that's a policy you're "comfortable" about.
posted by zompist at 4:13 PM on July 13, 2020 [2 favorites]
I tend to agree that Erdoğan's action is "religious triumphalism"; but then Atatürk's was a thumb in the eye to his own people's religion and culture.
? "His own people" included Christians, Jews, atheists, and others.
Atatürk's conversion of Hagia Sophia into a museum has to be read as part of his program of Turkification, not as anything so childish as a "thumb in the eye" to Muslims. There are a lot of reasons to criticise that program, but he successfully brewed a modern nation from the moribund dregs of the Ottoman Empire. Wikipedia has a lengthy article on Ataturk's Reforms and I was frankly amazed that one person could have changed so many things.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:03 PM on July 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
? "His own people" included Christians, Jews, atheists, and others.
Atatürk's conversion of Hagia Sophia into a museum has to be read as part of his program of Turkification, not as anything so childish as a "thumb in the eye" to Muslims. There are a lot of reasons to criticise that program, but he successfully brewed a modern nation from the moribund dregs of the Ottoman Empire. Wikipedia has a lengthy article on Ataturk's Reforms and I was frankly amazed that one person could have changed so many things.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:03 PM on July 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
“ It was the secular nationalism of Ataturk... This new thing they are doing seems a rejection of that”
I mean, that’s the Erdogan presidency in a nutshell, isn’t it?
posted by kevinbelt at 7:17 PM on July 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
I mean, that’s the Erdogan presidency in a nutshell, isn’t it?
posted by kevinbelt at 7:17 PM on July 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
Because indulging Islamophobia is not OK.
Good to hear!
Because a bunch of white people demanding that they decide how things should go in a Muslim country is not OK. Because there is a long history of white Christians, including Orthodox, claiming a right to intervene in Turkey specifically, and dismembering its empire for their convenience.
First, not every place in the world is the United States. Assuming that everything needs to be seen through the lens of race, especially when we're talking about historical events that preceded the invention of that nebulous and malign fiction is neither required nor helpful. How olive toned would you like me to be before I can have an opinion? Are Greeks "white"? Turks? This is about groups who identify themselves by their language, by their religion, but not by their race.
Second, claiming modern Turkey as "a Muslim country" is, in many senses, obviously correct. However it is also not an uncomplicated statement in its implications. Is the US a "Christian country"? Sort of it is, but also in terms of its foundational legal documents it is not. If the US constitution was amended to say that it was actually a "Christian country" then it would become both statistically and legally correct, right? But somehow I doubt that if this happened tomorrow, everyone on Metafilter would be happy about it and go around making that claim without qualification. You also cannot make statements like that without understanding the history. Is Poland a Catholic country? Certainly, but that statement is always going to have an asterisk explaining just what exactly happened to all the Jewish people there.
Third, casting regional history as "...Christians, including Orthodox, claiming a right to intervene in Turkey specifically..." is a massive oversimplification that puts Turkey and the Ottoman Empire before it in a passive role without agency. I know in the US, it is the habit to pick one group or another as the designated victim (aka the good guys) and then proceed from there. That might actually work in American history which is both short and dominated by a particular group who did more or less victimise all the others but it falls very far short elsewhere.
There is a long history of fighting between various Orthodox powers, Turks, and other groups over this region, yes. The latter part of that did indeed include European powers taking apart the Ottoman Empire for their own benefit. As a result, many people went from being part of an empire ruled in Istanbul to being part of empires ruled from Paris and London.
There were certainly claims by the Russian empire that they had the right to intervene to protect Orthodox populations elsewhere. Dealing with those claims is obviously complicated by two things:
First - in many cases, the underlying motivation was actually territorial acquisition / historic Russian obsession with warm water ports. See also why they have a massive base in Latakia.
Second - the actual history of the 20th century was one in which Greek Orthodox, Armenian, and other religious minority groups actually were massacred and displaced in huge numbers.
So on the one hand "protect our co-coreligionists" was a slightly absurd bit of gauze over an aggressive Russian Imperial territorial aspiration and on the other hand kind of true?
Also because of common human decency. Think of what a Muslim will get out of this thread: a bunch of non-Muslims ginning up hatreds based on a 500-year-old grudge, or expressing concerns about how it might affect tourism. And dismissing or ignoring similar affronts on Muslim holy places and cultures. (Seriously, the capital of Ottoman Turkey was a "fringe" location?
I don't see any "ginning up hatreds" and there have been expressions of concern about this from the Muslim world as well, including from the government of the UAE which has not heretofore been widely known as a crypto-Orthodox operation. My Turkish friends also find it deeply concerning although that is of course a minority opinion in Turkey. I am glad that the Muslim world has such vociferous spokespeople as you to represent it.
(I'm also not thrilled about the "what about the tourism" discussion so there at least we are in agreement.)
The reference to fringe clearly pointed to Cordoba. Obviously the capital of Ottoman Turkey is not fringe, although now that you mention it, it was never a historically important mosque. In fact, in Sunni Islam at least, the very concept of a historically important mosque outside of a few specific sites in Mecca, Medina, and Al Quds is problematic.
Is being an anti-Muslim troll something you're "comfortable" about?)
Contemptible. This is a baseless and outrageous accusation which you have invented out of thin air. It is merely the case that having grown up in the Arab world and studying Islam and the Arabic language (although admittedly not Turkish) for many years, I am deeply interested in the history of the Middle East. It also sits at the intersection of my other historical interests (nomads & semi-nomads interacting with settled peoples, historical state formation, the dissolution of old-world multi-ethnic empires, and the civilisations of the Mediterranean coast. So yes, I have some thoughts on this.
(not to mention my great love for the Turkish historical soap opera Ertuğrul) Although Ertuğrul would certainly have turned the Hagia Sofia into a mosque and indeed the descendants of the real Ertuğrul did.
You are jumping at shadows here.
I tend to agree that Erdoğan's action is "religious triumphalism"; but then Atatürk's was a thumb in the eye to his own people's religion and culture. As an Orthodox, you might try to think of cases of enforced secularism, say in Russia, and see if that's a policy you're "comfortable" about.
I'm not Orthodox, I gave no indication that I was.
The fact that you would reference "his own people's religion and culture" is either due to blithe genocide denial, stupidity, or ignorance. I know you're not stupid and I doubt you're comfortable with this or any other genocide so we'll have to stick with ignorance.
posted by atrazine at 6:00 AM on July 14, 2020 [5 favorites]
Good to hear!
Because a bunch of white people demanding that they decide how things should go in a Muslim country is not OK. Because there is a long history of white Christians, including Orthodox, claiming a right to intervene in Turkey specifically, and dismembering its empire for their convenience.
First, not every place in the world is the United States. Assuming that everything needs to be seen through the lens of race, especially when we're talking about historical events that preceded the invention of that nebulous and malign fiction is neither required nor helpful. How olive toned would you like me to be before I can have an opinion? Are Greeks "white"? Turks? This is about groups who identify themselves by their language, by their religion, but not by their race.
Second, claiming modern Turkey as "a Muslim country" is, in many senses, obviously correct. However it is also not an uncomplicated statement in its implications. Is the US a "Christian country"? Sort of it is, but also in terms of its foundational legal documents it is not. If the US constitution was amended to say that it was actually a "Christian country" then it would become both statistically and legally correct, right? But somehow I doubt that if this happened tomorrow, everyone on Metafilter would be happy about it and go around making that claim without qualification. You also cannot make statements like that without understanding the history. Is Poland a Catholic country? Certainly, but that statement is always going to have an asterisk explaining just what exactly happened to all the Jewish people there.
Third, casting regional history as "...Christians, including Orthodox, claiming a right to intervene in Turkey specifically..." is a massive oversimplification that puts Turkey and the Ottoman Empire before it in a passive role without agency. I know in the US, it is the habit to pick one group or another as the designated victim (aka the good guys) and then proceed from there. That might actually work in American history which is both short and dominated by a particular group who did more or less victimise all the others but it falls very far short elsewhere.
There is a long history of fighting between various Orthodox powers, Turks, and other groups over this region, yes. The latter part of that did indeed include European powers taking apart the Ottoman Empire for their own benefit. As a result, many people went from being part of an empire ruled in Istanbul to being part of empires ruled from Paris and London.
There were certainly claims by the Russian empire that they had the right to intervene to protect Orthodox populations elsewhere. Dealing with those claims is obviously complicated by two things:
First - in many cases, the underlying motivation was actually territorial acquisition / historic Russian obsession with warm water ports. See also why they have a massive base in Latakia.
Second - the actual history of the 20th century was one in which Greek Orthodox, Armenian, and other religious minority groups actually were massacred and displaced in huge numbers.
So on the one hand "protect our co-coreligionists" was a slightly absurd bit of gauze over an aggressive Russian Imperial territorial aspiration and on the other hand kind of true?
Also because of common human decency. Think of what a Muslim will get out of this thread: a bunch of non-Muslims ginning up hatreds based on a 500-year-old grudge, or expressing concerns about how it might affect tourism. And dismissing or ignoring similar affronts on Muslim holy places and cultures. (Seriously, the capital of Ottoman Turkey was a "fringe" location?
I don't see any "ginning up hatreds" and there have been expressions of concern about this from the Muslim world as well, including from the government of the UAE which has not heretofore been widely known as a crypto-Orthodox operation. My Turkish friends also find it deeply concerning although that is of course a minority opinion in Turkey. I am glad that the Muslim world has such vociferous spokespeople as you to represent it.
(I'm also not thrilled about the "what about the tourism" discussion so there at least we are in agreement.)
The reference to fringe clearly pointed to Cordoba. Obviously the capital of Ottoman Turkey is not fringe, although now that you mention it, it was never a historically important mosque. In fact, in Sunni Islam at least, the very concept of a historically important mosque outside of a few specific sites in Mecca, Medina, and Al Quds is problematic.
Is being an anti-Muslim troll something you're "comfortable" about?)
Contemptible. This is a baseless and outrageous accusation which you have invented out of thin air. It is merely the case that having grown up in the Arab world and studying Islam and the Arabic language (although admittedly not Turkish) for many years, I am deeply interested in the history of the Middle East. It also sits at the intersection of my other historical interests (nomads & semi-nomads interacting with settled peoples, historical state formation, the dissolution of old-world multi-ethnic empires, and the civilisations of the Mediterranean coast. So yes, I have some thoughts on this.
(not to mention my great love for the Turkish historical soap opera Ertuğrul) Although Ertuğrul would certainly have turned the Hagia Sofia into a mosque and indeed the descendants of the real Ertuğrul did.
You are jumping at shadows here.
I tend to agree that Erdoğan's action is "religious triumphalism"; but then Atatürk's was a thumb in the eye to his own people's religion and culture. As an Orthodox, you might try to think of cases of enforced secularism, say in Russia, and see if that's a policy you're "comfortable" about.
I'm not Orthodox, I gave no indication that I was.
The fact that you would reference "his own people's religion and culture" is either due to blithe genocide denial, stupidity, or ignorance. I know you're not stupid and I doubt you're comfortable with this or any other genocide so we'll have to stick with ignorance.
posted by atrazine at 6:00 AM on July 14, 2020 [5 favorites]
I've been watching this debate, unsure whether to comment, because although I believe I understand more about this issue from most people who commented, this is not a topic that's easily reduced to pithy remarks. Also, as a Greek-speaking Cypriot I wanted to avoid overstepping. However, I wanted to flag up that from my perspective, the perspective of someone's who's grown up in the region and - as a Cypriot - has cultural ties to both Greece and Turkey, Islamophobia is very much something that follows suit whenever people discuss Turkey's actions vis-a-vis Christianity.
I was born and raised in the Middle East, on the island of Cyprus, that's home to Greek-speaking Cypriots who tend to ethnically align themselves with Greece as well as Turkish-speaking Cypriots who tend to align themselves with Turkey. Both communities have suffered deep traumas and loss, still within living memory. This trauma can't be separated from people's attitudes, actions and inactions that directly link to perceived ethnicity and nationalism. The identities of "Greek", "Turkish", "Christian", and "Muslim" have been formed by a series of intertwined actions and reactions to the "Other's" nationalism as well as ethnic conflict, much as they have in Greece and Turkey as part of the formation of the contemporary Greek and Turkish states. That's not to take away that this is a massive deal for the Christian Orthodox community. It is. However, it is absolutely the case that in the majority of Greek Orthodox Christians, an action by Turkey, right or wrong - especially when it involves symbols of Christianity - is perceived with hostility and racism. So I agree that non-Muslims and non-Turks might want to be aware of this and avoid casually dismissing concerns of Islamophobia.
posted by mkdirusername at 5:50 PM on July 14, 2020 [5 favorites]
I was born and raised in the Middle East, on the island of Cyprus, that's home to Greek-speaking Cypriots who tend to ethnically align themselves with Greece as well as Turkish-speaking Cypriots who tend to align themselves with Turkey. Both communities have suffered deep traumas and loss, still within living memory. This trauma can't be separated from people's attitudes, actions and inactions that directly link to perceived ethnicity and nationalism. The identities of "Greek", "Turkish", "Christian", and "Muslim" have been formed by a series of intertwined actions and reactions to the "Other's" nationalism as well as ethnic conflict, much as they have in Greece and Turkey as part of the formation of the contemporary Greek and Turkish states. That's not to take away that this is a massive deal for the Christian Orthodox community. It is. However, it is absolutely the case that in the majority of Greek Orthodox Christians, an action by Turkey, right or wrong - especially when it involves symbols of Christianity - is perceived with hostility and racism. So I agree that non-Muslims and non-Turks might want to be aware of this and avoid casually dismissing concerns of Islamophobia.
posted by mkdirusername at 5:50 PM on July 14, 2020 [5 favorites]
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posted by Nerd of the North at 2:03 PM on July 11, 2020 [3 favorites]