The world is shrinking for those with US passports
July 16, 2020 2:10 AM Subscribe
US passports are now much less valuable than they used to be. Thanks to...this (gestures around), US citizens aren't welcome in as many countries as we used to be, and that's not changing any time soon.
Also: CNN context, IATA map of restrictions, Fox (shared CNN link)
It plays well to the Current Regime's base I suppose, since few of them seem to have any interest in leaving the USA for anywhere but a Canadian or Mexican fishing trip / pharmaceutical run, but doesn't this affect both ways - people from other countries are less likely to visit if they're going to be quarantined on their return home (among other reasons)?
Also: CNN context, IATA map of restrictions, Fox (shared CNN link)
It plays well to the Current Regime's base I suppose, since few of them seem to have any interest in leaving the USA for anywhere but a Canadian or Mexican fishing trip / pharmaceutical run, but doesn't this affect both ways - people from other countries are less likely to visit if they're going to be quarantined on their return home (among other reasons)?
The analysis conflates passport/citizenship with residency and place of departure. Most of the new entry restrictions are based upon where one is coming from and what residency status one might have in the destination, not ones citizenship or passport used.
posted by khedron at 2:40 AM on July 16, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by khedron at 2:40 AM on July 16, 2020 [7 favorites]
QFT:
In the end, Trump did what he said. He built a wall around America and made the world pay for it. He just never told Americans that they’d be stuck inside.
posted by chavenet at 2:40 AM on July 16, 2020 [139 favorites]
In the end, Trump did what he said. He built a wall around America and made the world pay for it. He just never told Americans that they’d be stuck inside.
posted by chavenet at 2:40 AM on July 16, 2020 [139 favorites]
Is this about long term visa reciprocity treaties or for the duration of the medical emergency? I thought most boarders were closed for essentially any non-citizen for most countries, basically the world is shut down until the vaccine.
posted by sammyo at 3:41 AM on July 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by sammyo at 3:41 AM on July 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
Because of a myriad of reasons (although sexism played a significant role) I was unable to get access to my birth certificate until after I was married. The first thing I did once I got my birth certificate was apply for a passport. I have a lot of emotions tied up in possessing this document, it really does represent a freedom that was long-denied.
Mr. theBRKP and I were really poor early in our marriage, but I saved every extra penny I could. It took several years, but our first trip abroad was to Paris. For me, it was magical and I went back on my own twice.
I got a better job, as did Mr. theBRKP. I was able to travel internationally for work. Mr. theBRKP was able to visit distant relatives. We took our kid on his first international trip.
I have a very well controlled respiratory condition that causes me at most a minor inconvenience. The mind shift to accepting that this minor condition could be the comorbidity that ends up killing me if I get the virus was hard, but I ordered some pretty, well-fitting masks and moved on to finding other ways to interact from a distance with my friends and family.
I can handle the isolation, the working from home, wearing the mask every time I step outside, not seeing my family or friends in person. But the notion that I am now walled in due to malicious incompetence and will not see the world again? It is breaking me.
posted by theBigRedKittyPurrs at 3:46 AM on July 16, 2020 [40 favorites]
Mr. theBRKP and I were really poor early in our marriage, but I saved every extra penny I could. It took several years, but our first trip abroad was to Paris. For me, it was magical and I went back on my own twice.
I got a better job, as did Mr. theBRKP. I was able to travel internationally for work. Mr. theBRKP was able to visit distant relatives. We took our kid on his first international trip.
I have a very well controlled respiratory condition that causes me at most a minor inconvenience. The mind shift to accepting that this minor condition could be the comorbidity that ends up killing me if I get the virus was hard, but I ordered some pretty, well-fitting masks and moved on to finding other ways to interact from a distance with my friends and family.
I can handle the isolation, the working from home, wearing the mask every time I step outside, not seeing my family or friends in person. But the notion that I am now walled in due to malicious incompetence and will not see the world again? It is breaking me.
posted by theBigRedKittyPurrs at 3:46 AM on July 16, 2020 [40 favorites]
If it makes things any better, Australians are presently not allowed to leave, except for permanent migration or a very short list of other exceptions. The only people I know who got an exit permit were Australian students at a US institution who were going abroad for more than a year - which they were only able to do because they were dual nationals. Things like, e.g., a parent's funeral or a child's marriage are not considered a good justification.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:58 AM on July 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:58 AM on July 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
My daughter has been living separately from her husband for two years, so they could both complete their educations without debt. She graduates next week. France will issue her a short-term visa (they already took her money for that), but then she found out that won't get her admitted to the country. They are not issuing long-term visas now. I am now living with a basket case who must wait while her husband starts a new job in the Netherlands and sets up household without her. This time they have no idea how long it will be, or whether there's any light at all at the end of the tunnel.
posted by Miss Cellania at 4:03 AM on July 16, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by Miss Cellania at 4:03 AM on July 16, 2020 [10 favorites]
"According to new data from the Canada Border Services Agency, more than 10,000 U.S. citizens have been turned away at the Canadian border during the pandemic — and almost half of them were hoping to enter Canada to shop, go sightseeing or simply for recreation."
Here in Canada there are daily news reports of Americans trying to sneak in, and according to my neighbourhood Facebook groups, there are people reporting US license plates on the regular. Which...for Canadians is...quite something.
Some of my earliest memories date from when my (nuclear; everyone else stayed) family immigrated to Canada from the US in the mid-70s. I remember being bullied for my accent and my friends' parents being sort of...visibly kind about a few cultural gaffes, with the underlying understanding that as an American I could not be expected to know the (Upper, WASP) Canadian rules. Nothing like an immigrant experience with darker skin and a different accent, but that anti-American streak has been in Canada all my life.
However, it has absolutely ROARED to life lately as, you know, we are worried that Americans are literally going to kill us through willful ignorance and disregard for Canada as anything but their own backup plans/backyard. Or of course through withholding our PPE orders, as Trump threatened in March, or hoarding drugs or defunding WHO or whatever anti-world thing is coming next.
I am...very sad, as an American-Canadian. Last year I took my two kids to the US for their kind of first road trip there and it was such a mixed experience. We went to Philadelphia and DC and my! god! the art! The museums! The libraries! It's on a scale that Canada just does not match. The Lincoln Memorial and its promise did make us weep and made my oldest son, a sculptor himself, just absolutely have to sit down with the power of it. I was proud to show my kids their heritage.
At the same time, we camped, in campgrounds with people with Trump painted on their trailers (literally) and Confederate flags flying - in upstate New York! Not just at Watkins Glen on a race weekend! - or with signs outside their RVs letting you know they were armed and that was...scary. As a single-looking mom on that trip it was a bit concerning, but had I been a BIPOC parent we would have left.
I'd planned a trip this summer to go back. But I am not sure, now, when we might. It's COVID-19, yes, but it's also the slow, slow realization -- slow even for me, where all my biological family but two members is down there -- that the US is unsafe and well, cruel. I'd realized this in piece before...the way Americans are jailed for parking fines, lack of medical care, the vague Canadian-type worries about things like you can get your hamburger rare in any restaurant so I had to explain to my kids not to do that...a dozen tiny things that suddenly kind of added up.
Although I usually go to the States every year or every other year, I hadn't been so - on the ground, literally. I'm usually in for a week at nice hotels and driving, camping, eating in small town restaurants...it really shook me. I don't think....I had quite realized, and now it's in stark relief, where things had gotten to.
I think the world is waking up this way too. The sheer numbers are hard to ignore, in a country formerly known for its scientific and democratic leadership.
I honestly don't think a lot of Americans understand that in Canada, we are freaking out daily over our 260 new cases. Not missing a zero. And we are used to doing the population math and dividing US numbers by 10, we've all done it all our lives to see how we measure up and...we are scared for you. And by you.
Canadians right now think of Americans as a) plague reservoirs and b) incredibly selfish. We have some of "those people" too and...they watch Fox News.
"I thought most boarders were closed for essentially any non-citizen for most countries, basically the world is shut down until the vaccine."
Canadians can now travel to Europe. Not that anyone I know is getting on a plane anytime soon.
Wow, this got long. I have feelings.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:10 AM on July 16, 2020 [203 favorites]
Here in Canada there are daily news reports of Americans trying to sneak in, and according to my neighbourhood Facebook groups, there are people reporting US license plates on the regular. Which...for Canadians is...quite something.
Some of my earliest memories date from when my (nuclear; everyone else stayed) family immigrated to Canada from the US in the mid-70s. I remember being bullied for my accent and my friends' parents being sort of...visibly kind about a few cultural gaffes, with the underlying understanding that as an American I could not be expected to know the (Upper, WASP) Canadian rules. Nothing like an immigrant experience with darker skin and a different accent, but that anti-American streak has been in Canada all my life.
However, it has absolutely ROARED to life lately as, you know, we are worried that Americans are literally going to kill us through willful ignorance and disregard for Canada as anything but their own backup plans/backyard. Or of course through withholding our PPE orders, as Trump threatened in March, or hoarding drugs or defunding WHO or whatever anti-world thing is coming next.
I am...very sad, as an American-Canadian. Last year I took my two kids to the US for their kind of first road trip there and it was such a mixed experience. We went to Philadelphia and DC and my! god! the art! The museums! The libraries! It's on a scale that Canada just does not match. The Lincoln Memorial and its promise did make us weep and made my oldest son, a sculptor himself, just absolutely have to sit down with the power of it. I was proud to show my kids their heritage.
At the same time, we camped, in campgrounds with people with Trump painted on their trailers (literally) and Confederate flags flying - in upstate New York! Not just at Watkins Glen on a race weekend! - or with signs outside their RVs letting you know they were armed and that was...scary. As a single-looking mom on that trip it was a bit concerning, but had I been a BIPOC parent we would have left.
I'd planned a trip this summer to go back. But I am not sure, now, when we might. It's COVID-19, yes, but it's also the slow, slow realization -- slow even for me, where all my biological family but two members is down there -- that the US is unsafe and well, cruel. I'd realized this in piece before...the way Americans are jailed for parking fines, lack of medical care, the vague Canadian-type worries about things like you can get your hamburger rare in any restaurant so I had to explain to my kids not to do that...a dozen tiny things that suddenly kind of added up.
Although I usually go to the States every year or every other year, I hadn't been so - on the ground, literally. I'm usually in for a week at nice hotels and driving, camping, eating in small town restaurants...it really shook me. I don't think....I had quite realized, and now it's in stark relief, where things had gotten to.
I think the world is waking up this way too. The sheer numbers are hard to ignore, in a country formerly known for its scientific and democratic leadership.
I honestly don't think a lot of Americans understand that in Canada, we are freaking out daily over our 260 new cases. Not missing a zero. And we are used to doing the population math and dividing US numbers by 10, we've all done it all our lives to see how we measure up and...we are scared for you. And by you.
Canadians right now think of Americans as a) plague reservoirs and b) incredibly selfish. We have some of "those people" too and...they watch Fox News.
"I thought most boarders were closed for essentially any non-citizen for most countries, basically the world is shut down until the vaccine."
Canadians can now travel to Europe. Not that anyone I know is getting on a plane anytime soon.
Wow, this got long. I have feelings.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:10 AM on July 16, 2020 [203 favorites]
Thanks for your thoughts warriorqueen. I'm a Canadian with a lot of relatives in the US, and am about to unceremoniously move away from (flee?) the US after living here for the past few years.
Something I feel I've noticed about anti-American sentiments in Canada is that when I was young, it was fairly normal to be anti-American. Even politicians would use it to clarify their positions (we don't want to be America this, or American that...). After 9/11, many nations of course expressed solidarity with the US, but I think in Canada there was a subtle, yet major and permanent shift in Canadian attitudes to Americans. It wasn't pity, but maybe a sense that all the defensive Canadian ideas which hide feelings of inferiority... maybe some of those ideas were really worthwhile. Health care, education, modesty, diplomacy, etc... these institutions and virtues were not those of "losers", but of those who work for and value a civil society.
I'm in no way trying to say that Canadians are more virtuous than Americans, and I think claims like that in general are wrong and dangerous. But these days I get the feeling that the perception of America for Canadians right now is something like... that really cool, successful, and talented relative, who somehow starting reading the wrong stuff and just went off the deep end. America seems sick. Maybe it's always been sick. Maybe the American entrepreneurial spirit was always destined to consume itself. But if the feeling wasn't pity before...
Anyway, my family is relocating to Germany, far sooner than we intended, so we can have childcare again, and also to be part of a healthy civil society. I'll miss New York city, but I won't miss living with the unique low-level anxiety that I only experience when I'm in the US.
posted by Alex404 at 4:47 AM on July 16, 2020 [45 favorites]
Something I feel I've noticed about anti-American sentiments in Canada is that when I was young, it was fairly normal to be anti-American. Even politicians would use it to clarify their positions (we don't want to be America this, or American that...). After 9/11, many nations of course expressed solidarity with the US, but I think in Canada there was a subtle, yet major and permanent shift in Canadian attitudes to Americans. It wasn't pity, but maybe a sense that all the defensive Canadian ideas which hide feelings of inferiority... maybe some of those ideas were really worthwhile. Health care, education, modesty, diplomacy, etc... these institutions and virtues were not those of "losers", but of those who work for and value a civil society.
I'm in no way trying to say that Canadians are more virtuous than Americans, and I think claims like that in general are wrong and dangerous. But these days I get the feeling that the perception of America for Canadians right now is something like... that really cool, successful, and talented relative, who somehow starting reading the wrong stuff and just went off the deep end. America seems sick. Maybe it's always been sick. Maybe the American entrepreneurial spirit was always destined to consume itself. But if the feeling wasn't pity before...
Anyway, my family is relocating to Germany, far sooner than we intended, so we can have childcare again, and also to be part of a healthy civil society. I'll miss New York city, but I won't miss living with the unique low-level anxiety that I only experience when I'm in the US.
posted by Alex404 at 4:47 AM on July 16, 2020 [45 favorites]
I think that's bang-on Alex404 and I value the insight.
This really struck me when I came back into this thread: basically the world is shut down until the vaccine.
I think that might be true where non-essential travel is concerned but I'm not really sure this is how my small sample size of Canadian friends and in-laws is feeling. We also hope for a vaccine but we're kind of preparing to tough it out without for a while - masks, handwashing, avoid the three Cs where possible, test/trace/isolate, open up, make mistakes, close pockets down again, rinse, repeat.
Last night I was on a moms group Zoom and there was a basically "this is going to cost a lot of money, bring on a 15% HST and rebate low-income families" rah rah rah that surprised me...I feel the same, tax me a bit more for the rest of my life but feed and house people now...but no vaccine mention at all.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:03 AM on July 16, 2020 [7 favorites]
This really struck me when I came back into this thread: basically the world is shut down until the vaccine.
I think that might be true where non-essential travel is concerned but I'm not really sure this is how my small sample size of Canadian friends and in-laws is feeling. We also hope for a vaccine but we're kind of preparing to tough it out without for a while - masks, handwashing, avoid the three Cs where possible, test/trace/isolate, open up, make mistakes, close pockets down again, rinse, repeat.
Last night I was on a moms group Zoom and there was a basically "this is going to cost a lot of money, bring on a 15% HST and rebate low-income families" rah rah rah that surprised me...I feel the same, tax me a bit more for the rest of my life but feed and house people now...but no vaccine mention at all.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:03 AM on July 16, 2020 [7 favorites]
Ghidorah-- I'm in Japan, too. Long-term like you, and the lack of transparency about getting back in if you leave--especially Americans--is frustrating to say the least.
posted by zardoz at 5:07 AM on July 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by zardoz at 5:07 AM on July 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
I’m wondering that if the disparity in infection rates holds, some US states might coalesce into blocs to control interstate travel? I suppose that would be seen as a an illegal act but strange things have happening lately.
posted by bonobothegreat at 5:10 AM on July 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by bonobothegreat at 5:10 AM on July 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
On behalf of Mexico I would like to point out that we’ve closed the land border. Americans can still fly in though.
For whatever reason a good chunk of American and Canadian expats in the Yucatán are living on tourist visas, meaning that every six months they have to leave and re-enter to stay legal. The government was doing extensions until two weeks ago when they specifically told Americans and Canadians on tourist visas they were on their own.
The borders with Belize and Guatemala are closed so if you want to tag up right now that means a plane to Miami or Houston — an expensive and potentially COVID-ridden experience.
Lots of people are planning to overstay but (perhaps predictably) there are rumors swirling that they’re going to start requiring passports at the COVID checkpoints and deporting — permanently — any and all illegal aliens. Interesting times.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:35 AM on July 16, 2020 [31 favorites]
For whatever reason a good chunk of American and Canadian expats in the Yucatán are living on tourist visas, meaning that every six months they have to leave and re-enter to stay legal. The government was doing extensions until two weeks ago when they specifically told Americans and Canadians on tourist visas they were on their own.
The borders with Belize and Guatemala are closed so if you want to tag up right now that means a plane to Miami or Houston — an expensive and potentially COVID-ridden experience.
Lots of people are planning to overstay but (perhaps predictably) there are rumors swirling that they’re going to start requiring passports at the COVID checkpoints and deporting — permanently — any and all illegal aliens. Interesting times.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:35 AM on July 16, 2020 [31 favorites]
I’m wondering that if the disparity in infection rates holds, some US states might coalesce into blocs to control interstate travel? I suppose that would be seen as a an illegal act but strange things have happening lately.
It would be interesting to see what the courts say. Quarantine acts were ruled legal a long time ago but only if you treat all incoming travelers the same way.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:37 AM on July 16, 2020
It would be interesting to see what the courts say. Quarantine acts were ruled legal a long time ago but only if you treat all incoming travelers the same way.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:37 AM on July 16, 2020
As a dual US/Canadian citizen I'm staying in Canada forever thank you. (Hyperbole maybe. But only maybe.)
I can understand a bit why Cdns might have anti-American feelings, though when I first got here almost 15 years ago I got really tired of hearing the dread "oh, we're not talking about YOU." I was raised to believe that the US was the greatest country in the world and when I questioned it as a kid I got generic answers, nothing that satisfied me (I'm an atheist too, it's just how I'm built). I suppose some of that is my parents' generation, being Jewish and feeling safer than in most places, etc. but the very arrogance to assume that you can even BE the "best" country!
Anyway, barf. I'll stay here and look forward to hugging my friends one day.
posted by wellred at 5:53 AM on July 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
I can understand a bit why Cdns might have anti-American feelings, though when I first got here almost 15 years ago I got really tired of hearing the dread "oh, we're not talking about YOU." I was raised to believe that the US was the greatest country in the world and when I questioned it as a kid I got generic answers, nothing that satisfied me (I'm an atheist too, it's just how I'm built). I suppose some of that is my parents' generation, being Jewish and feeling safer than in most places, etc. but the very arrogance to assume that you can even BE the "best" country!
Anyway, barf. I'll stay here and look forward to hugging my friends one day.
posted by wellred at 5:53 AM on July 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
CNN's list isn't quite accurate: Ireland currently has a similar policy as the UK - no ban, but everyone is supposed to self-isolate for 14 days on arrival. This approach is not really popular with the public and American tourists (NYT) are being seen as a particular problem. The self-isolation is not really mandatory, and most Americans only come for less than 2 weeks, so at least some are ignoring it.
As the NYT article makes clear, it's not just Americans, but they are the ones that the Irish are most concerned about, given the higher risk of infection. At the same time, the government is recommending that Irish residents don't travel abroad to avoid importing cases, even to areas of lower risk, something which most people feel is unfair.
posted by scorbet at 5:54 AM on July 16, 2020 [11 favorites]
As the NYT article makes clear, it's not just Americans, but they are the ones that the Irish are most concerned about, given the higher risk of infection. At the same time, the government is recommending that Irish residents don't travel abroad to avoid importing cases, even to areas of lower risk, something which most people feel is unfair.
posted by scorbet at 5:54 AM on July 16, 2020 [11 favorites]
The analysis conflates passport/citizenship with residency and place of departure.
This is true, although since an overwhelming number of Americans are in the United States it’s kind of a difference that makes no difference. American passports are useless because no one wants to see anyone from the U.S. The tiny number of Americans outside the U.S. get an exemption on that.
There are comments being made about Americans that go above and beyond where they’re traveling from though. The fact that 40% of us pretend that there isn’t a problem at all. The resulting lack of masks. Basically the idea that we’ve gotten ourselves into this mess due to something unique in the American character. We are a bad risk to take.
The most succinct way I’ve heard it put: "Americans are the guy in the zombie movie who lies about getting bitten."
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:02 AM on July 16, 2020 [56 favorites]
This is true, although since an overwhelming number of Americans are in the United States it’s kind of a difference that makes no difference. American passports are useless because no one wants to see anyone from the U.S. The tiny number of Americans outside the U.S. get an exemption on that.
There are comments being made about Americans that go above and beyond where they’re traveling from though. The fact that 40% of us pretend that there isn’t a problem at all. The resulting lack of masks. Basically the idea that we’ve gotten ourselves into this mess due to something unique in the American character. We are a bad risk to take.
The most succinct way I’ve heard it put: "Americans are the guy in the zombie movie who lies about getting bitten."
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:02 AM on July 16, 2020 [56 favorites]
Canadian here. I am a consultant for a us-based firm and have historically relied on the US for the majority of my work, and in more normal times was travelling to the US (typ toronto to someplace in the eastern time zone, I know Hartsfield Intl like the back of my hand) every couple of weeks.
So my ability to get new work has been severely hampered. for the time being we are managing. but several of my clients, including a couple of potential new ones, are asking why I can't just arrange to get on a plane and get down there to do "X". Perhaps needless to say these clients are almost entirely in the US SE. Thus far we've managed to find alternatives and means to credibly delay but in the next couple of weeks I am just going to need to decide whether to refuse to go. Based on what I see on the news, I have no intention of putting myself at risk right now. August may look a lot different, employment-wise.
posted by hearthpig at 6:14 AM on July 16, 2020 [8 favorites]
So my ability to get new work has been severely hampered. for the time being we are managing. but several of my clients, including a couple of potential new ones, are asking why I can't just arrange to get on a plane and get down there to do "X". Perhaps needless to say these clients are almost entirely in the US SE. Thus far we've managed to find alternatives and means to credibly delay but in the next couple of weeks I am just going to need to decide whether to refuse to go. Based on what I see on the news, I have no intention of putting myself at risk right now. August may look a lot different, employment-wise.
posted by hearthpig at 6:14 AM on July 16, 2020 [8 favorites]
Hawaii is enforcing a 2-week quarantine on everyone entering the state. Enforcing with police arresting those who attempt to break the quarantine. This is a serious thing to do for a place so dependent on tourism.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 6:15 AM on July 16, 2020 [14 favorites]
posted by Kirth Gerson at 6:15 AM on July 16, 2020 [14 favorites]
It's weird to realize how things can change and spiral out of control in completely unexpected ways. As bad as I expected the current administration to be, I didn't really expect for them to be actively trying to mass murder their constituency on such a large scale here in America. The sudden inability to escape through legal channels makes me wonder if there could be an uptick of illegal migrants from this country sometime in the not too distant future.
I remember someone in the endless POTUS threads saying that we should write down our current beliefs immediately after the election, so we could look back later to see how far we have changed. I'd love to know how much our own Overton window has drifted in the past several years of hell...
I've been wanting to move to Japan (having family there makes it easier), but it looks like that door is firmly shut for the time being. I'd far more prefer being stranded just about anywhere but in the states at this point. I really am not looking forwards to my turn with Covid-19.
Japan has been starting to ease the restrictions a little for foreign residents to return, and I understand that they already relaxed them some for people who had to leave for emergency medical/family/legal reasons on a case by case basis. Americans will be at the end of the line, of course...
posted by rambling wanderlust at 6:17 AM on July 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
I remember someone in the endless POTUS threads saying that we should write down our current beliefs immediately after the election, so we could look back later to see how far we have changed. I'd love to know how much our own Overton window has drifted in the past several years of hell...
I've been wanting to move to Japan (having family there makes it easier), but it looks like that door is firmly shut for the time being. I'd far more prefer being stranded just about anywhere but in the states at this point. I really am not looking forwards to my turn with Covid-19.
Japan has been starting to ease the restrictions a little for foreign residents to return, and I understand that they already relaxed them some for people who had to leave for emergency medical/family/legal reasons on a case by case basis. Americans will be at the end of the line, of course...
posted by rambling wanderlust at 6:17 AM on July 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
I am also a dual US citizen, with Iceland being my home now. I used to travel back to the US nearly every month for work projects. Needless to day, that has stopped. I was planning to go back to visit family with my girlfriend at Christmas, but I expect that will be off too.
posted by Nothing at 6:19 AM on July 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Nothing at 6:19 AM on July 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'm a Canadian who used to spend a few months in California every year, usually over Christmas. I think if you squish all my time there together that in total I've lived in LA County for 3 years out of the last 11. This past Christmas was my first in a decade not to go there (I went to Vanuatu instead).
But watching the country react to Covid -- and even watching it decline since Trump's election (my Canadian friends and I cried in a bar watching the election results) -- has made America very much not a place I really desire to ever go again.
It is absolutely incredible how stupid the country has become. There are no other words for it: incredible and stupid. Guns, police brutality, systemic racism, anti-vaxxers, justice and economic inequality, health care, anti-choice, and on and on. Unquestionably, incredibly stupid.
Yes, Canada has its problems, as every country does, but they aren't collectively so unbelievably and unbearably oppressive. The mass of the American population feels downtrodden and the people doing the stomping are their equals on the other side of the aisle!
And it seems that absolutely anyone can look at it and see what's going to happen. Trump is going to spend the rest of the year running the country further into the ground and he's either going to get re-elected, which will be the end of America-as-we-know-it, or he's going to lose and leave such an absolute clusterfuck that absolutely no one -- and certainly not Biden -- will be able to fix it and then in 4 years some other Trump-esque figure (perhaps even one of his children) is going to get elected and finish the job.
Like others, I grew up being told America Greatest Country in the World rah rah! and perhaps I fell for it partially because I love movies and Hollywood and they were the ones pushing it the most, but I don't know anyone who doesn't live there that actually believes that anymore and no one's even on the fence. The idea that any non-American living in a democratic country would ever want to move to America seems on its face to be absurd.
And the worst part of it is that I do not see it improving in my lifetime. America is absolutely fucked.
posted by dobbs at 6:32 AM on July 16, 2020 [42 favorites]
But watching the country react to Covid -- and even watching it decline since Trump's election (my Canadian friends and I cried in a bar watching the election results) -- has made America very much not a place I really desire to ever go again.
It is absolutely incredible how stupid the country has become. There are no other words for it: incredible and stupid. Guns, police brutality, systemic racism, anti-vaxxers, justice and economic inequality, health care, anti-choice, and on and on. Unquestionably, incredibly stupid.
Yes, Canada has its problems, as every country does, but they aren't collectively so unbelievably and unbearably oppressive. The mass of the American population feels downtrodden and the people doing the stomping are their equals on the other side of the aisle!
And it seems that absolutely anyone can look at it and see what's going to happen. Trump is going to spend the rest of the year running the country further into the ground and he's either going to get re-elected, which will be the end of America-as-we-know-it, or he's going to lose and leave such an absolute clusterfuck that absolutely no one -- and certainly not Biden -- will be able to fix it and then in 4 years some other Trump-esque figure (perhaps even one of his children) is going to get elected and finish the job.
Like others, I grew up being told America Greatest Country in the World rah rah! and perhaps I fell for it partially because I love movies and Hollywood and they were the ones pushing it the most, but I don't know anyone who doesn't live there that actually believes that anymore and no one's even on the fence. The idea that any non-American living in a democratic country would ever want to move to America seems on its face to be absurd.
And the worst part of it is that I do not see it improving in my lifetime. America is absolutely fucked.
posted by dobbs at 6:32 AM on July 16, 2020 [42 favorites]
Speaking as an American, to the non-Americans wondering WTF is up with us:
I think the cruelty is mainly at the top. For the majority of Americans, let's say the 80% that aren't Trumpists, it's not cruelty but profound apathy born of defeatism from (A) a generations-long campaign of voter disillusionment, only partly intentional, which convinced us that we're powerless to change anything… and (B) a more recent campaign of constant terror, definitely intentional at the outset (anybody remember the Project for the New American Century?) but incalculably magnified thanks to Covid/the economic collapse/the civil strife.
I.e., on preview, I think we shouldn't attribute to cruelty/stupidity what we can attribute to no longer caring about anything, which I'd wager is definitely the case for a substantial portion of that 80%. (Anybody remember "The Unnecessariat"?)
Not that there isn't plenty of stupid to go around, because there is, especially in various elected offices.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 6:41 AM on July 16, 2020 [10 favorites]
I think the cruelty is mainly at the top. For the majority of Americans, let's say the 80% that aren't Trumpists, it's not cruelty but profound apathy born of defeatism from (A) a generations-long campaign of voter disillusionment, only partly intentional, which convinced us that we're powerless to change anything… and (B) a more recent campaign of constant terror, definitely intentional at the outset (anybody remember the Project for the New American Century?) but incalculably magnified thanks to Covid/the economic collapse/the civil strife.
I.e., on preview, I think we shouldn't attribute to cruelty/stupidity what we can attribute to no longer caring about anything, which I'd wager is definitely the case for a substantial portion of that 80%. (Anybody remember "The Unnecessariat"?)
Not that there isn't plenty of stupid to go around, because there is, especially in various elected offices.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 6:41 AM on July 16, 2020 [10 favorites]
Am a British passport-holder, and yes, Brexit and COVID19 have done exactly the same number on my head as Trump and COVID19 have done to those of you in the USA.
(I am sitting tight and hoping for an opportunity to vote for Scottish independence in the next 1-2 years, because I don't want to be trapped on a small, overpopulated island governed by right-wing racists if I can opt for an even smaller but culturally more left-liberal polity.)
posted by cstross at 6:47 AM on July 16, 2020 [26 favorites]
(I am sitting tight and hoping for an opportunity to vote for Scottish independence in the next 1-2 years, because I don't want to be trapped on a small, overpopulated island governed by right-wing racists if I can opt for an even smaller but culturally more left-liberal polity.)
posted by cstross at 6:47 AM on July 16, 2020 [26 favorites]
Another Canadian here. I don't want to fall into a common trap and become smug about not being American. And we don't have that much to be smug about: we handled COVID-19 better than the U.S., but not as well as much of Europe. Thousands of Ontario and Quebec residents of long-term care homes died horribly. We delayed shutting things down in March - we closed just in time - and we have much to answer for.
But thankfully we seem to have got the virus mostly under control in Canada (at least until the weather gets colder). Watching the latest U.S. case counts fills me with sadness and horror. And I fear that it is going to get worse. I have family, friends, and co-workers in the U.S. (my boss lives in California), and I hope that they (and you, dear American reader) stay safe and healthy.
posted by tallmiddleagedgeek at 6:49 AM on July 16, 2020 [7 favorites]
But thankfully we seem to have got the virus mostly under control in Canada (at least until the weather gets colder). Watching the latest U.S. case counts fills me with sadness and horror. And I fear that it is going to get worse. I have family, friends, and co-workers in the U.S. (my boss lives in California), and I hope that they (and you, dear American reader) stay safe and healthy.
posted by tallmiddleagedgeek at 6:49 AM on July 16, 2020 [7 favorites]
I feel like I got to N. Ireland just in time as I start seeing folks in Dublin getting very upset about American tourists arriving and bringing COVID with them. I don't imagine it will be long before the Republic of Ireland comes to their senses and stops Americans from entering out of fear of Schengen countries imposing a travel ban due to the risk of exposure and people bringing things back to the continent if they go to Ireland. It's a joke to say the UK would be reasonable also, who knows given this timeline.
Luckily the UK (kind of) recognized my fiancé's rights as an Irish citizen, so I won't have to return to the US anytime soon.
posted by mrzarquon at 6:57 AM on July 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
Luckily the UK (kind of) recognized my fiancé's rights as an Irish citizen, so I won't have to return to the US anytime soon.
posted by mrzarquon at 6:57 AM on July 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
Saw my family in the US in November of last year and the current expectation is that we won't see each other until at least 2021, maybe. As it happens this was the year that my mom and brother were talking about coming to visit us here in the Netherlands and then maybe all go to Rome together. Well, thats off.
posted by vacapinta at 7:16 AM on July 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by vacapinta at 7:16 AM on July 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
"Americans are the guy in the zombie movie who lies about getting bitten."
It’s just a scratch! I feel fine, really! DON”T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!!1!
posted by Huffy Puffy at 7:23 AM on July 16, 2020 [12 favorites]
It’s just a scratch! I feel fine, really! DON”T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!!1!
posted by Huffy Puffy at 7:23 AM on July 16, 2020 [12 favorites]
Our son was SO PROUD to get his first passport. We had a trip planned to Sweden to visit some friends, it would have been his first trip outside of the US and my wife's first trip to Europe (I've been to Spain and France, but never Sweden).
Trip was supposed to happen in late March. Everything went to hell just about a week before our trip was supposed to happen. Kid is now 11. His passport is only good for 5 years before we need to renew it... hopefully he actually gets to use it before it expires.
Absolute failure of national leadership. I cannot understand how anyone continues to defend 45 on how the pandemic was handled. You kill tens of thousands of US citizens through sheer incompetence and that is somehow OK with Republicans? Every single pundit, politician, etc. who ignores the facts to protect the ideology should be held accountable for unnecessarily putting millions at risk, if not charged with accessory to a crime. Is someone filing a class action lawsuit against Trump over this shit? Because he wants to run the country like a business, and when your business KILLS PEOPLE you get hit with a class action.
posted by caution live frogs at 7:31 AM on July 16, 2020 [11 favorites]
Trip was supposed to happen in late March. Everything went to hell just about a week before our trip was supposed to happen. Kid is now 11. His passport is only good for 5 years before we need to renew it... hopefully he actually gets to use it before it expires.
Absolute failure of national leadership. I cannot understand how anyone continues to defend 45 on how the pandemic was handled. You kill tens of thousands of US citizens through sheer incompetence and that is somehow OK with Republicans? Every single pundit, politician, etc. who ignores the facts to protect the ideology should be held accountable for unnecessarily putting millions at risk, if not charged with accessory to a crime. Is someone filing a class action lawsuit against Trump over this shit? Because he wants to run the country like a business, and when your business KILLS PEOPLE you get hit with a class action.
posted by caution live frogs at 7:31 AM on July 16, 2020 [11 favorites]
It is absolutely incredible how stupid the country has become.
I feel that for a very long time, Canadian Stupids were some of the most jingoistic, chauvinist, and most belligerently Anti-American voices. There's been a total 180 on that, and it blows my mind and frankly scares me that the Stupids are now looking south and thinking 'We need more of that here.'
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:35 AM on July 16, 2020 [14 favorites]
I feel that for a very long time, Canadian Stupids were some of the most jingoistic, chauvinist, and most belligerently Anti-American voices. There's been a total 180 on that, and it blows my mind and frankly scares me that the Stupids are now looking south and thinking 'We need more of that here.'
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:35 AM on July 16, 2020 [14 favorites]
This was going to be the kid’s European summer. Knowing there may never be one, at least a parent-child one, is hard.
Also knowing there’s nowhere to flee to if stuff gets bad is...nerve wracking.
posted by corb at 7:39 AM on July 16, 2020 [13 favorites]
Also knowing there’s nowhere to flee to if stuff gets bad is...nerve wracking.
posted by corb at 7:39 AM on July 16, 2020 [13 favorites]
Canadians right now think of Americans as a) plague reservoirs and b) incredibly selfish.
I don't think that's broadly true. I take it that most Canadians like most Americans, and like America. If we're being honest with ourselves we acknowledge that there's no country more similar to us.
I take it that Canadians have suspicion, anger and contempt specifically for the species of American who would meander across the border during a pandemic for selfish reasons. You're not sending your best.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 7:41 AM on July 16, 2020 [21 favorites]
I don't think that's broadly true. I take it that most Canadians like most Americans, and like America. If we're being honest with ourselves we acknowledge that there's no country more similar to us.
I take it that Canadians have suspicion, anger and contempt specifically for the species of American who would meander across the border during a pandemic for selfish reasons. You're not sending your best.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 7:41 AM on July 16, 2020 [21 favorites]
Look, I'm American, and I personally have a hard time not seeing many other Americans as a) plague reservoirs and b) incredibly selfish. I'm not surprised that folks in other countries have the same impression.
We have two types of plague reservoirs in the US: those who are not being honestly informed about the risks due to incompetent, corrupt leadership, and those who KNOW the risks but choose to ignore them in support of incompetent, corrupt leadership.
Either way, you can probably gauge whether the American in question is a plague reservoir by looking at which candidate name is listed on their bumper sticker/hat/T shirt/yard sign.
posted by caution live frogs at 7:50 AM on July 16, 2020 [39 favorites]
We have two types of plague reservoirs in the US: those who are not being honestly informed about the risks due to incompetent, corrupt leadership, and those who KNOW the risks but choose to ignore them in support of incompetent, corrupt leadership.
Either way, you can probably gauge whether the American in question is a plague reservoir by looking at which candidate name is listed on their bumper sticker/hat/T shirt/yard sign.
posted by caution live frogs at 7:50 AM on July 16, 2020 [39 favorites]
I don't imagine it will be long before the Republic of Ireland comes to their senses
It's all a bit of a mess at the moment, Ireland says anyone arriving from anywhere other than Northern Ireland (there is no Green List yet) should self-isolate, whereas Northern Ireland has much broader exemptions. The Irish rules don't specify how long you need to be in NI, so strictly speaking someone like me (in Germany) could fly to Belfast, and get the train to Dublin without "having" to self-isolate (which is not mandatory anyway.)
It's one of those times when an all-island approach would have made sense, or for the UK to follow the EU/EEA/Schengen approach allowing Ireland to do the same, but unfortunately neither of those options were possible. There are still ways that Ireland could tighten things up, but a complete ban of non-essential travel whether from all countries, or higher risk ones only would be difficult.
I thought most boarders were closed for essentially any non-citizen for most countries
Most of the EU/EEA/Schengen area has opened up the internal borders to non-essential travel again as well as to/from certain other countries provided that it is reciprocal. The Reopen EU site has more of the details, on a per country basis. Tourism travel isn't quite encouraged, but isn't discouraged at the same time.
I don't want to be trapped on a small, overpopulated island governed by right-wing racists
Ireland via the Common Travel Area would still be an option (for the moment at least), but I can understand that an independent Scotland would be preferable.
posted by scorbet at 7:56 AM on July 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
It's all a bit of a mess at the moment, Ireland says anyone arriving from anywhere other than Northern Ireland (there is no Green List yet) should self-isolate, whereas Northern Ireland has much broader exemptions. The Irish rules don't specify how long you need to be in NI, so strictly speaking someone like me (in Germany) could fly to Belfast, and get the train to Dublin without "having" to self-isolate (which is not mandatory anyway.)
It's one of those times when an all-island approach would have made sense, or for the UK to follow the EU/EEA/Schengen approach allowing Ireland to do the same, but unfortunately neither of those options were possible. There are still ways that Ireland could tighten things up, but a complete ban of non-essential travel whether from all countries, or higher risk ones only would be difficult.
I thought most boarders were closed for essentially any non-citizen for most countries
Most of the EU/EEA/Schengen area has opened up the internal borders to non-essential travel again as well as to/from certain other countries provided that it is reciprocal. The Reopen EU site has more of the details, on a per country basis. Tourism travel isn't quite encouraged, but isn't discouraged at the same time.
I don't want to be trapped on a small, overpopulated island governed by right-wing racists
Ireland via the Common Travel Area would still be an option (for the moment at least), but I can understand that an independent Scotland would be preferable.
posted by scorbet at 7:56 AM on July 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
it does get expressed as hatred when they sneak in though or talk about this place as their escape plan or want to join us
This would almost be delicious irony if it weren't for the likelihood that those wanting to escape to Canada to live are probably the ones who agree with Canadians about how dumb and dangerous the rest of America is.
But it is sort of hilarious how Americans wanted to shut others out of our country but just assumed we'd be welcomed with open arms if we ever wanted to emigrate somewhere else.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 8:00 AM on July 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
This would almost be delicious irony if it weren't for the likelihood that those wanting to escape to Canada to live are probably the ones who agree with Canadians about how dumb and dangerous the rest of America is.
But it is sort of hilarious how Americans wanted to shut others out of our country but just assumed we'd be welcomed with open arms if we ever wanted to emigrate somewhere else.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 8:00 AM on July 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
Like you can even get a passport right now if you needed one.
The US Department of State is tracking the applications that are piling up and right now there's about a million and a half applications waiting for processing. The employees can't work with sensitive documentation from home. The backlog looks to be about 3 months at this point and they aren't taking any in-person renewals except for dire emergencies. The renewal we submitted in May is still marked as "not found" in the tracking database (although they cashed the check right away, natch).
Also knowing there’s nowhere to flee to if stuff gets bad is...nerve wracking.
Barbados is working on a one year visa to let you work remotely from there if you want. That's starting to look more appealing by the week.
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:17 AM on July 16, 2020 [10 favorites]
The US Department of State is tracking the applications that are piling up and right now there's about a million and a half applications waiting for processing. The employees can't work with sensitive documentation from home. The backlog looks to be about 3 months at this point and they aren't taking any in-person renewals except for dire emergencies. The renewal we submitted in May is still marked as "not found" in the tracking database (although they cashed the check right away, natch).
Also knowing there’s nowhere to flee to if stuff gets bad is...nerve wracking.
Barbados is working on a one year visa to let you work remotely from there if you want. That's starting to look more appealing by the week.
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:17 AM on July 16, 2020 [10 favorites]
American living in São Paulo. My two countries are in a depressing game of "hold my beer" with COVID failure. I had really gotten used to using both countries systems depending on what was easier. So for example I never got a Brazlian driver's license. I don't own a car, I just occasionally rent one when I go out of town. And the process to get a Brazilian license is a fucking nightmere, so I just keep my American one. But it's going to expire next year. I also import a medication that I need to take everyday to function, and my medication isn't available in Brazil. I need a new prescription and refill in the next 12 months. My passport is also expiring next year. The State Department already says that renewals will only be processed for emergencies. There is a huge backlog piling up. And am I really being paranoid when I think that maybe the Orange Dictator would deny passport renewals to people? Or just cut funding to the State Department making the entire process so slow it effectively doesn't happen?
I never even considered switching my citizenship. Not because I'm patriotic. Mostly because US citizenship is a valuable thing. But now? Even with Brazil being this terrible? I'm at least thinking it could be a possibility if things turn out wrong.
posted by Glibpaxman at 8:19 AM on July 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
I never even considered switching my citizenship. Not because I'm patriotic. Mostly because US citizenship is a valuable thing. But now? Even with Brazil being this terrible? I'm at least thinking it could be a possibility if things turn out wrong.
posted by Glibpaxman at 8:19 AM on July 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
A very large percentage of the cottages near ours are owned by Americans, and they are very vocal and angry about not being allowed into Canada to go to "their property". I don't know if the locals would be happy to see a bunch of Americans right now as norther Ontario has had almost no cases of Covid to date. If the vocal American cottage owners kept their word at only going straight to their cottage and not stopping or shopping anywhere, they wouldn't be adding to the local economy anyways.
Selfish of me, but as a canoeist I found it much more relaxing without all the massive over-sized powerboats roaring around and pontoon boats blaring music.
posted by fimbulvetr at 8:23 AM on July 16, 2020 [32 favorites]
Selfish of me, but as a canoeist I found it much more relaxing without all the massive over-sized powerboats roaring around and pontoon boats blaring music.
posted by fimbulvetr at 8:23 AM on July 16, 2020 [32 favorites]
The latitude that a lot of Americans have enjoyed until this point with visa-less travel and long-term residency is, well, privilege. Not that it doesn't personally suck if you're an American dealing with visa stuff in a non-US country, visa stuff sucks for everyone, but like, this is how it's been for non-Americans for years and years and years.
posted by storytam at 8:30 AM on July 16, 2020 [42 favorites]
posted by storytam at 8:30 AM on July 16, 2020 [42 favorites]
Not to downplay the fact that the U.S. is by far the world's biggest COVID hotspot, but most of that map isn't closed specifically to people coming from the United States - most countries have simply put border restrictions in place for all entering foreigners.
posted by exutima at 8:45 AM on July 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by exutima at 8:45 AM on July 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
The idea that any non-American living in a democratic country would ever want to move to America seems on its face to be absurd.
I don't want to derail too much, but the U.S. has much to offer that isn't obvious if you've lived there all your life. The biggest thing is social/economic mobility -- the child of people who run a convenience store can aspire to the professional class. It's not easy, but once you become a software engineer for example no one is going to care about your humble beginnings. As another example, when was the last time you checked on the ancestry of a doctor or lawyer before trusting them?
Societies can be surprisingly regimented and while the U.S. has its share of that it's a lot less oppressive than many countries.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:46 AM on July 16, 2020 [9 favorites]
I don't want to derail too much, but the U.S. has much to offer that isn't obvious if you've lived there all your life. The biggest thing is social/economic mobility -- the child of people who run a convenience store can aspire to the professional class. It's not easy, but once you become a software engineer for example no one is going to care about your humble beginnings. As another example, when was the last time you checked on the ancestry of a doctor or lawyer before trusting them?
Societies can be surprisingly regimented and while the U.S. has its share of that it's a lot less oppressive than many countries.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:46 AM on July 16, 2020 [9 favorites]
Not to downplay the fact that the U.S. is by far the world's biggest COVID hotspot, but most of that map isn't closed specifically to people coming from the United States - most countries have simply put border restrictions in place for all entering foreigners.
On the other hand, many countries and blocks like the EU are creating lists of countries who they do allow in and the U.S. isn't on many of them.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:48 AM on July 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
> The biggest thing is social/economic mobility
The USA is ranked 27th in the world by the world economic forum.
posted by Poldo at 8:53 AM on July 16, 2020 [24 favorites]
The USA is ranked 27th in the world by the world economic forum.
posted by Poldo at 8:53 AM on July 16, 2020 [24 favorites]
But it is sort of hilarious how Americans wanted to shut others out of our country but just assumed we'd be welcomed with open arms if we ever wanted to emigrate somewhere else.
Ditto, Brits and Brexit.
posted by epo at 9:02 AM on July 16, 2020 [17 favorites]
Ditto, Brits and Brexit.
posted by epo at 9:02 AM on July 16, 2020 [17 favorites]
visa stuff sucks for everyone, but like, this is how it's been for non-Americans for years and years and years.
Oh god, so much this.
Having to arrange work trips on the basis of which Schengen country is the Lesser Asshole gets old pretty fast, even before the plague ruined everything. Pro-tip, Switzerland. Nicely professional, as long as you supply everything they ask for it's all handled VERY quickly with a minimum of fuss. Spain? Assholes. France? Also assholes.
...of course, nobody are assholes the way that the UK are assholes. I still love the UK instruction to "supply any document you feel would be helpful in your application, but we will not tell you which documents are actually helpful and if you fail to send something we decide we need, we will reject your application out of hand and keep the large fee, thank you!"
The US, meanwhile, always seems to make me feel like a dick for having left in the first place (do they behave this way toward citizens? or is it just the rest of us?)
"Why did you leave the country?"
"Work"
"Where was this work?"
"Switzerland, it's right there on the ticket"
"Why did you need to visit Switzerland to do this work?"
" .... are you kidding? No, you're clearly not kidding. OK, my employer has a large office there and my boss told me to go."
"Why does your employer have an office there?"
...and so on...
Then again, the only border official that ever screamed at me was Canadian, so YMMV.
In conclusion, the world is a land of contrasts, and fuck all immigration officials everywhere.
posted by aramaic at 9:03 AM on July 16, 2020 [41 favorites]
Oh god, so much this.
Having to arrange work trips on the basis of which Schengen country is the Lesser Asshole gets old pretty fast, even before the plague ruined everything. Pro-tip, Switzerland. Nicely professional, as long as you supply everything they ask for it's all handled VERY quickly with a minimum of fuss. Spain? Assholes. France? Also assholes.
...of course, nobody are assholes the way that the UK are assholes. I still love the UK instruction to "supply any document you feel would be helpful in your application, but we will not tell you which documents are actually helpful and if you fail to send something we decide we need, we will reject your application out of hand and keep the large fee, thank you!"
The US, meanwhile, always seems to make me feel like a dick for having left in the first place (do they behave this way toward citizens? or is it just the rest of us?)
"Why did you leave the country?"
"Work"
"Where was this work?"
"Switzerland, it's right there on the ticket"
"Why did you need to visit Switzerland to do this work?"
" .... are you kidding? No, you're clearly not kidding. OK, my employer has a large office there and my boss told me to go."
"Why does your employer have an office there?"
...and so on...
Then again, the only border official that ever screamed at me was Canadian, so YMMV.
In conclusion, the world is a land of contrasts, and fuck all immigration officials everywhere.
posted by aramaic at 9:03 AM on July 16, 2020 [41 favorites]
> It's all a bit of a mess at the moment, Ireland says anyone arriving from anywhere other than Northern Ireland (there is no Green List yet) should self-isolate, whereas Northern Ireland has much broader exemptions. The Irish rules don't specify how long you need to be in NI, so strictly speaking someone like me (in Germany) could fly to Belfast, and get the train to Dublin without "having" to self-isolate (which is not mandatory anyway.)
The allure of tourist dollars is going to be make it hard to keep American's out of Ireland. The Common Travel Area makes it all complicated, not to mention the border issue (I landed in Dublin and went north, more because it was a shorter flight and didn't require me taking the once daily overcrowded aer lingus flight to Belfast from Heathrow).
I'm glad that N. Ireland is getting the covid-app (once they figured out that doing their own thing was dumb from the beginning) since it will allow data sharing with the Republic for exposure notification. But the order is backwards - there should be mandatory masks in public right now for both the North and the South, and once exposure notification has a significant percentage of install base along with the R value falling low enough, they can start talking about relaxing the mask requirement. The fact that they have opened up without any real exposure notification / contact tracing system in place is idiotic. Not to mention that exposure notification may actually give some concrete experience for mask wearing instead of the abstract idea of of lower risk - someone getting exposure notifications but not getting sick reinforces the fact that masks work.
But I can't stress how much even the terrible by comparison to rest of europe handling of COVID UK has been, the US was 10x worse. I've now had a total of five coronavirus tests since May: three in the states, and two here in N. Ireland compliments of NHS. The last one I had before I got on the plane took 10 days from requesting an appointment to getting a result and it billed my insurance $2500 (which was 100% covered - only because I had an emergency ER visit in Feb which maxed out my deductible already, yay?). The two I had here in the UK? Free, easy to request - while asked for symptoms and if I were a key worker - when I said no to both I expected a later scheduled appointment, instead I had them same day, with results the following morning texted to me.
posted by mrzarquon at 9:03 AM on July 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
The allure of tourist dollars is going to be make it hard to keep American's out of Ireland. The Common Travel Area makes it all complicated, not to mention the border issue (I landed in Dublin and went north, more because it was a shorter flight and didn't require me taking the once daily overcrowded aer lingus flight to Belfast from Heathrow).
I'm glad that N. Ireland is getting the covid-app (once they figured out that doing their own thing was dumb from the beginning) since it will allow data sharing with the Republic for exposure notification. But the order is backwards - there should be mandatory masks in public right now for both the North and the South, and once exposure notification has a significant percentage of install base along with the R value falling low enough, they can start talking about relaxing the mask requirement. The fact that they have opened up without any real exposure notification / contact tracing system in place is idiotic. Not to mention that exposure notification may actually give some concrete experience for mask wearing instead of the abstract idea of of lower risk - someone getting exposure notifications but not getting sick reinforces the fact that masks work.
But I can't stress how much even the terrible by comparison to rest of europe handling of COVID UK has been, the US was 10x worse. I've now had a total of five coronavirus tests since May: three in the states, and two here in N. Ireland compliments of NHS. The last one I had before I got on the plane took 10 days from requesting an appointment to getting a result and it billed my insurance $2500 (which was 100% covered - only because I had an emergency ER visit in Feb which maxed out my deductible already, yay?). The two I had here in the UK? Free, easy to request - while asked for symptoms and if I were a key worker - when I said no to both I expected a later scheduled appointment, instead I had them same day, with results the following morning texted to me.
posted by mrzarquon at 9:03 AM on July 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
The biggest thing is social/economic mobility -- the child of people who run a convenience store can aspire to the professional class.
…In theory. I'd speak to some of those children of people who run a convenience store and see what the actual practical reality of this claim might be, however.
I may be a bit of an outlier, but I actually think that even more aggressive bans against American travel in the short term may be a good thing. Hear me out -
Yes, it does impact the many of you upthread who have friends and family and business where seeing them involves traveling between the US and other countries. You aren't the only ones thus affected, however. And - my hunch is that many of these people are either economically or politically powerful.
And the more those with economic or political power find themselves persona no grata in the rest of the world, thanks to the current administration, the more sentiment against that current administration could turn - and the more likely it is that this nightmare might end sooner.
This was going to be the year I wanted to try to finally go back to Paris. Or go to New Brunswick to do a genealogical trip and see where my grandmother was born. But then THIS happened, and I realized I was going to have to stay put, because it's the right thing to do.
Current research says that if everyone complied with all the social distancing and mask rules across the board, it takes only six weeks to bring infection rates down to vanishingly small amounts. If it takes the rest of the world getting tough to convince EVERYONE ELSE in this country to do exactly that for six weeks, then so be it. And if sitting at home for six weeks finally gets people pissed off enough to vote that day glo orange fucker out of office and directly into a jail cell, even better.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:22 AM on July 16, 2020 [22 favorites]
…In theory. I'd speak to some of those children of people who run a convenience store and see what the actual practical reality of this claim might be, however.
I may be a bit of an outlier, but I actually think that even more aggressive bans against American travel in the short term may be a good thing. Hear me out -
Yes, it does impact the many of you upthread who have friends and family and business where seeing them involves traveling between the US and other countries. You aren't the only ones thus affected, however. And - my hunch is that many of these people are either economically or politically powerful.
And the more those with economic or political power find themselves persona no grata in the rest of the world, thanks to the current administration, the more sentiment against that current administration could turn - and the more likely it is that this nightmare might end sooner.
This was going to be the year I wanted to try to finally go back to Paris. Or go to New Brunswick to do a genealogical trip and see where my grandmother was born. But then THIS happened, and I realized I was going to have to stay put, because it's the right thing to do.
Current research says that if everyone complied with all the social distancing and mask rules across the board, it takes only six weeks to bring infection rates down to vanishingly small amounts. If it takes the rest of the world getting tough to convince EVERYONE ELSE in this country to do exactly that for six weeks, then so be it. And if sitting at home for six weeks finally gets people pissed off enough to vote that day glo orange fucker out of office and directly into a jail cell, even better.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:22 AM on July 16, 2020 [22 favorites]
I have a relative living in the Northeast US who had Covid. Their spouse, luckily, didn't get sick and was able to take care of them. The spouse is smart, and generally has common sense, and cares for others very much.
The spouse CONTINUALLY broke quarantine during the relative's active illness. I would always say HEY stay home, get neighbours or friends to drop stuff off, you're not supposed to be going out. They would say oh but I wore a mask and gloves, I don't want to bother anyone.
This is the failure of American individualism. Do it yourself, don't rely on your community. Infect them.
posted by wellred at 9:51 AM on July 16, 2020 [40 favorites]
The spouse CONTINUALLY broke quarantine during the relative's active illness. I would always say HEY stay home, get neighbours or friends to drop stuff off, you're not supposed to be going out. They would say oh but I wore a mask and gloves, I don't want to bother anyone.
This is the failure of American individualism. Do it yourself, don't rely on your community. Infect them.
posted by wellred at 9:51 AM on July 16, 2020 [40 favorites]
In the end, Trump did what he said. He built a wall around America and made the world pay for it. He just never told Americans that they’d be stuck inside.
In the end, it seems that John Carpenter, brilliant mind behind 'Escape from New York,' simply didn't think big enough when envisioning the sequel.
posted by pwnguin at 9:52 AM on July 16, 2020 [11 favorites]
In the end, it seems that John Carpenter, brilliant mind behind 'Escape from New York,' simply didn't think big enough when envisioning the sequel.
posted by pwnguin at 9:52 AM on July 16, 2020 [11 favorites]
Not to downplay the fact that the U.S. is by far the world's biggest COVID hotspot, but most of that map isn't closed specifically to people coming from the United States - most countries have simply put border restrictions in place for all entering foreigners.
The Arton Passport Index has been updated to take COVID bans into account - the US has a "Passport Power Rank" of 20 on that list, with about 50 countries ahead of it. By contrast, the Henley Passport Index doesn't take the COVID bans into account, and the US is at no 7, with about 15 countries ahead of it. (The two indices don't consider the same number of countries/territories so aren't directly comparable, but will give an indication.)
posted by scorbet at 9:52 AM on July 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
The Arton Passport Index has been updated to take COVID bans into account - the US has a "Passport Power Rank" of 20 on that list, with about 50 countries ahead of it. By contrast, the Henley Passport Index doesn't take the COVID bans into account, and the US is at no 7, with about 15 countries ahead of it. (The two indices don't consider the same number of countries/territories so aren't directly comparable, but will give an indication.)
posted by scorbet at 9:52 AM on July 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
> This is the failure of American individualism. Do it yourself, don't rely on your community. Infect them.
COVID is laying bare the farce that is the rugged individual. The only way to be safe and prevent yourself from getting sick is to take steps that protect others and to encourage others to take steps that protect you.
posted by mrzarquon at 9:59 AM on July 16, 2020 [23 favorites]
COVID is laying bare the farce that is the rugged individual. The only way to be safe and prevent yourself from getting sick is to take steps that protect others and to encourage others to take steps that protect you.
posted by mrzarquon at 9:59 AM on July 16, 2020 [23 favorites]
I'd speak to some of those children of people who run a convenience store and see what the actual practical reality of this claim might be, however.
Tl;dr: it’s complicated.
From my own anecdotal experience and the experience of others, it is frequently easier for the children of immigrants to do better than their parents. However, it’s frequently a trade off, as often that social mobility is accomplished by ruthlessly leaving behind the rest of the family to founder. So it’s not really a 1:1 comparison- it’s theoretically possible one person could have risen in the country of origin as well by completely ignoring other members of the family that needed help. Like - there’s a stockbroker in my family now. Whee, success story! Except he is a terrible person and sued my elderly matriarch in order to try to get her to sell the family home to give him his share of the cash for it, rather than her continuing to use it for the dastardly unprofitable purpose of housing indigent family members.
posted by corb at 10:01 AM on July 16, 2020 [15 favorites]
Tl;dr: it’s complicated.
From my own anecdotal experience and the experience of others, it is frequently easier for the children of immigrants to do better than their parents. However, it’s frequently a trade off, as often that social mobility is accomplished by ruthlessly leaving behind the rest of the family to founder. So it’s not really a 1:1 comparison- it’s theoretically possible one person could have risen in the country of origin as well by completely ignoring other members of the family that needed help. Like - there’s a stockbroker in my family now. Whee, success story! Except he is a terrible person and sued my elderly matriarch in order to try to get her to sell the family home to give him his share of the cash for it, rather than her continuing to use it for the dastardly unprofitable purpose of housing indigent family members.
posted by corb at 10:01 AM on July 16, 2020 [15 favorites]
Even if Liz Warren got elected for two terms I doubt I'd want to go back. At some point I'll either be dead or have been living in Canada longer than I lived in the US and, assuming I'm alive, will have some cake to celebrate that fact. Except that the cake, which looks like a cake, will actually be a slab of back bacon. Or something like that? Anyway. I love a few dozen wonderful people in the US but I'm sadly resigned to never seeing them again thanks to the actions of millions of horrible people.
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:01 AM on July 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:01 AM on July 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
Either way, you can probably gauge whether the American in question is a plague reservoir by looking at which candidate name is listed on their bumper sticker/hat/T shirt/yard sign.
this is patently untrue.
there's an awful lot of "stooopid yanks/right wingers/nonmaskwearers get the virus, serves em right". if viruses acted according to morality and justice, it would be like that.....but it's not.
unfortunately, physics is all that viruses utilize. it hits the lax communities FIRST. eventually, absent hard borders within the US, covid19 is coming for your community in the US, in some cases, again.
and for other countries who feel smug right about now: absent really good public health response: meaningful rapid border tests with actual enforcible quarantines, lockdowns, track/trace, massive economic support for all of the people affected by those,...if they have any kind of open borders (see:most of the fucking world) it's coming for you too.
*and the brits/yanks - of which I am both, have been stupid, because we're rich and we've squandered the chances that wealth gave us to snuff this virus out.
posted by lalochezia at 10:09 AM on July 16, 2020 [12 favorites]
seanmpuckett when we are allowed to hug again, let us hug
posted by wellred at 10:14 AM on July 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by wellred at 10:14 AM on July 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
>> The biggest thing is social/economic mobility
>The USA is ranked 27th in the world by the world economic forum.
Everyone I know who immigrated for their children's sake came from countries a lot further down the list than that. It's all relative I suppose.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:14 AM on July 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
>The USA is ranked 27th in the world by the world economic forum.
Everyone I know who immigrated for their children's sake came from countries a lot further down the list than that. It's all relative I suppose.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:14 AM on July 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
As an American who isn't lucky enough to be a dual citizen somewhere, this thread is breaking me.
posted by treepour at 10:17 AM on July 16, 2020 [28 favorites]
posted by treepour at 10:17 AM on July 16, 2020 [28 favorites]
I'm a naturalized American citizen who went all in and did not apply to have dual citizenship. And right now if New England blew up the bridges along the Hudson and Lake Champlain, I'd be relieved.
posted by ocschwar at 10:21 AM on July 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by ocschwar at 10:21 AM on July 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
we spent a good chunk of time and energy exploring trying to get ancestry dual for my spouse in Italy. turns out that her ancestor was essentially kidnapped from an orphanage and brought to the US in the early 1900s and so the paper trail is just...gone.
we are going to try and escape next spring after i finish school. hoping that things have improved immigration wise to some degree by then. really need to be able to get out of here.
posted by lazaruslong at 10:31 AM on July 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
we are going to try and escape next spring after i finish school. hoping that things have improved immigration wise to some degree by then. really need to be able to get out of here.
posted by lazaruslong at 10:31 AM on July 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
"Americans are the guy in the zombie movie who lies about getting bitten."
I'd say we're looking at the little-seen "guy who does not believe there is a zombie outbreak" or the entirely new, "guy who insists he has a right to be eaten by zombies."
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:41 AM on July 16, 2020 [32 favorites]
I'd say we're looking at the little-seen "guy who does not believe there is a zombie outbreak" or the entirely new, "guy who insists he has a right to be eaten by zombies."
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:41 AM on July 16, 2020 [32 favorites]
Starting last November, we were planning to split our time between Brooklyn and Berlin, about half the year in both places. For a few years before, we'd been lucky enough to do a lot of traveling (achieving a childhood dream). Our parents are in Los Angeles and Denver. We were in Berlin when everything went to shit, and had been planning to spend spring and early summer in the States. I didn't go back to LA when my grandmother died (before Covid), because I knew I'd be there soon.
It's very strange. I know we are lucky to be here. I still don't have many summer clothes or other things I planned to grab when I was back in the States. When we moved here, I was unsure about it, but figured I'd see how things went and be back in New York before I knew it. Now, who knows.
People I know ask how it is, and being a fancy refugee is very simple day-to-day and very complex in my heart. When I thought who I would be most like in history, White Russian wasn't at the top of the list.
posted by dame at 10:42 AM on July 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
It's very strange. I know we are lucky to be here. I still don't have many summer clothes or other things I planned to grab when I was back in the States. When we moved here, I was unsure about it, but figured I'd see how things went and be back in New York before I knew it. Now, who knows.
People I know ask how it is, and being a fancy refugee is very simple day-to-day and very complex in my heart. When I thought who I would be most like in history, White Russian wasn't at the top of the list.
posted by dame at 10:42 AM on July 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
I don't think that's broadly true. I take it that most Canadians like most Americans, and like America. If we're being honest with ourselves we acknowledge that there's no country more similar to us.
I actually think that's why anti-American sentiment is so strong in Canada now, including, if I'm honest, in myself. It's not just that we're terrified of everything the States could do to us, though there are lots and lots of things. Just to confine ourselves to COVID-19 for the moment, remember that the U.S. wants to pull out of the WHO and has already pulled their funding; remember that the U.S. has been busy buying out already-purchased supplies not only from their own states but from other countries; remember that the U.S. tried to secure EXCLUSIVE ACCESS to a potential COVID-19 medication, at the expense of the rest of the world. The United States has shown itself to be a bully, and as time goes on it will only get more and more desperate. This makes America dangerous, to Canada and to the rest of the world.
But the other aspect is that because we're so similar to the United States, there's a big question hanging over our heads: if the United States can go so wrong in such a short period of time, what's to stop it from happening here? We see not just COVID-19 as a contagion, but the American way of life itself. Premier Jason Kenney in Alberta is basically already one of you. Premier Doug Ford in Ontario isn't close behind. What if we, too, are on the precipice of chaos and ruin from which we will never return?
American being the closest thing to Canada makes the anti-American sentiment STRONGER, not weaker. Now, declaring our differences loud and clear isn't just some kind of national identity positioning statement; it feels like a matter of life and death, regardless of how true it ends up being.
posted by chrominance at 10:52 AM on July 16, 2020 [25 favorites]
I actually think that's why anti-American sentiment is so strong in Canada now, including, if I'm honest, in myself. It's not just that we're terrified of everything the States could do to us, though there are lots and lots of things. Just to confine ourselves to COVID-19 for the moment, remember that the U.S. wants to pull out of the WHO and has already pulled their funding; remember that the U.S. has been busy buying out already-purchased supplies not only from their own states but from other countries; remember that the U.S. tried to secure EXCLUSIVE ACCESS to a potential COVID-19 medication, at the expense of the rest of the world. The United States has shown itself to be a bully, and as time goes on it will only get more and more desperate. This makes America dangerous, to Canada and to the rest of the world.
But the other aspect is that because we're so similar to the United States, there's a big question hanging over our heads: if the United States can go so wrong in such a short period of time, what's to stop it from happening here? We see not just COVID-19 as a contagion, but the American way of life itself. Premier Jason Kenney in Alberta is basically already one of you. Premier Doug Ford in Ontario isn't close behind. What if we, too, are on the precipice of chaos and ruin from which we will never return?
American being the closest thing to Canada makes the anti-American sentiment STRONGER, not weaker. Now, declaring our differences loud and clear isn't just some kind of national identity positioning statement; it feels like a matter of life and death, regardless of how true it ends up being.
posted by chrominance at 10:52 AM on July 16, 2020 [25 favorites]
> for other countries who feel smug right about now: absent really good public health response: meaningful rapid border tests with actual enforcible quarantines, lockdowns, track/trace, massive economic support for all of the people affected by those,...if they have any kind of open borders (see:most of the fucking world) it's coming for you too.
That still leaves a good number of countries something to smug about. Even the UK, with it's disastrous initial handling, has (currently) managed to avoid a second wave, and pubs are open. Keeping boarders open to all countries that aren't Covid hotspots seems entirely reasonable. That the US is a currently a Covid hotspot, and countries are refusing entry for people from the US is exactly the subject of this post. As a Covid hotspot, Brazilians are similarly prohibited entry in a number of places. (Including, hilariously, the US.)
I doubt countries that managed a cogent public health response the first time around would fail to mount one a second time, but it seems unlikely. Tourist-based economies totally ravaged by the economics effect of the pandemic may not be able to afford to do it a second time. (Or third, or fourth...) It's one thing for the US government to lick the boot of capitalism and kill its own people, but things are different at the international level.
Outbreaks will happen, even in the most controlling of countries. There was an outbreak in China in Beijing (700 miles away from Wuhan) earlier this month (which the government dealt with), but if even they can't avoid outbreaks, what chance does any place more open than that have of avoiding outbreaks?
Looking back at history, until the Polio vaccine came out, there were outbreaks every year, with life adapting to that reality. Areas would close and reopen. With today's global communication infrastructure, it's hard to believe we can't do better than they did the 50's, with a paper sign at the local community swimming pool saying it's closed due to epidemic.
posted by fragmede at 10:53 AM on July 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
That still leaves a good number of countries something to smug about. Even the UK, with it's disastrous initial handling, has (currently) managed to avoid a second wave, and pubs are open. Keeping boarders open to all countries that aren't Covid hotspots seems entirely reasonable. That the US is a currently a Covid hotspot, and countries are refusing entry for people from the US is exactly the subject of this post. As a Covid hotspot, Brazilians are similarly prohibited entry in a number of places. (Including, hilariously, the US.)
I doubt countries that managed a cogent public health response the first time around would fail to mount one a second time, but it seems unlikely. Tourist-based economies totally ravaged by the economics effect of the pandemic may not be able to afford to do it a second time. (Or third, or fourth...) It's one thing for the US government to lick the boot of capitalism and kill its own people, but things are different at the international level.
Outbreaks will happen, even in the most controlling of countries. There was an outbreak in China in Beijing (700 miles away from Wuhan) earlier this month (which the government dealt with), but if even they can't avoid outbreaks, what chance does any place more open than that have of avoiding outbreaks?
Looking back at history, until the Polio vaccine came out, there were outbreaks every year, with life adapting to that reality. Areas would close and reopen. With today's global communication infrastructure, it's hard to believe we can't do better than they did the 50's, with a paper sign at the local community swimming pool saying it's closed due to epidemic.
posted by fragmede at 10:53 AM on July 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
I’m a 46 year-old Canadian who stopped traveling to the U.S. after Trump’s election, and now I’m operating under the assumption that I’ll never go there again.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:53 AM on July 16, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:53 AM on July 16, 2020 [9 favorites]
That's a side effect that didn't occur to me when I posted the article - spare the "I'm moving to (place outside the USA that sounds nice)!" if the Current Regime is reinstated, because they won't take you.
There is nowhere left to run.
posted by lon_star at 11:30 AM on July 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
There is nowhere left to run.
posted by lon_star at 11:30 AM on July 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
I have been dating my Canadian fiance for almost two years. This has involved us going back and forth between our respective homes in BC and California. My fiance went home on March 8th, and I was supposed to join him in May, after my dog healed from a much needed surgery. We planned to be married on our anniversary in late August and I was to start my application for permanent residency in Canada and eventually acquire dual citizenship.
But, as we all know, the border was closed and now, since I am neither yet a permanent resident nor his spouse, I cannot enter the country. My fiance works for a cooperative farm and cannot take time off to come down here until early November, which means we will be apart for 9 months.
The only saving grace is that Canadians can fly in to the US. If that ability is suspended there is no telling if when we will be able to see each other again.
I am coping. But not very well, I'm afraid.
posted by ananci at 11:46 AM on July 16, 2020 [21 favorites]
But, as we all know, the border was closed and now, since I am neither yet a permanent resident nor his spouse, I cannot enter the country. My fiance works for a cooperative farm and cannot take time off to come down here until early November, which means we will be apart for 9 months.
The only saving grace is that Canadians can fly in to the US. If that ability is suspended there is no telling if when we will be able to see each other again.
I am coping. But not very well, I'm afraid.
posted by ananci at 11:46 AM on July 16, 2020 [21 favorites]
Just to confine ourselves to COVID-19 for the moment, remember that the U.S. wants to pull out of the WHO and has already pulled their funding; remember that the U.S. has been busy buying out already-purchased supplies not only from their own states but from other countries; remember that the U.S. tried to secure EXCLUSIVE ACCESS to a potential COVID-19 medication, at the expense of the rest of the world.
Well, don’t forget that this week the White House shifted all the COVID data reporting from the CDC to the Department of Health & Human Services. I am pretty sure we will see a drop in new cases.
People are saying they’ve never seen a drop like this — it’s unbelievable. A doctor came up to me — he was a big guy — he had tears in his eyes and he kept saying, “Thank you, sir, for the amazing job you’re doing!” And I don’t have to remind you that Obama did nothing to stop COVID-19, or any of the earlier COVIDs.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:49 AM on July 16, 2020 [13 favorites]
Well, don’t forget that this week the White House shifted all the COVID data reporting from the CDC to the Department of Health & Human Services. I am pretty sure we will see a drop in new cases.
People are saying they’ve never seen a drop like this — it’s unbelievable. A doctor came up to me — he was a big guy — he had tears in his eyes and he kept saying, “Thank you, sir, for the amazing job you’re doing!” And I don’t have to remind you that Obama did nothing to stop COVID-19, or any of the earlier COVIDs.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:49 AM on July 16, 2020 [13 favorites]
I'm an American (for better or worse) and I don't even know what to think anymore. I've been fortunate to be in an area that has taken this somewhat seriously (Northern VA) - while we haven't exactly crushed the curve, it seems to be reasonably under control and probably 95+% of people I see out and about wear masks. Even then, I've barely left the house since March - which has been a bit weird for me as I usually travel constantly (mostly work) and spend a large amount of time overseas (mainly Europe, including previously living in Germany). Now? No way in hell am I getting on a plane again anytime soon. I hate to say it (and miss being able to go anywhere) but just the idea of crowded airports and tiny seats freaks me the hell out right now.
Really wish being able to shut down state borders was possible, all the geniuses taking out-of-state summer vacations right now (including several I know personally) are not helping things one bit.
posted by photo guy at 11:52 AM on July 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
Really wish being able to shut down state borders was possible, all the geniuses taking out-of-state summer vacations right now (including several I know personally) are not helping things one bit.
posted by photo guy at 11:52 AM on July 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
I am pretty sure we will see a drop in new cases.
It's pretty hilarious that the US will more than likely start fudging numbers, something right-wingers were accusing China of doing when that country started posted lower numbers. "You can't trust their government to tell the world the truth!" they claimed.
posted by dobbs at 11:58 AM on July 16, 2020 [18 favorites]
It's pretty hilarious that the US will more than likely start fudging numbers, something right-wingers were accusing China of doing when that country started posted lower numbers. "You can't trust their government to tell the world the truth!" they claimed.
posted by dobbs at 11:58 AM on July 16, 2020 [18 favorites]
Canadian. In Chicagoland. Our numbers are going back up. Our school is planning to run in a 'hybrid' part time mode, which is a no from us. Just 5 blocks from some riots that knocked over all the liquor stores and pharmacies (team riot - f both those industries). The stress at work.
I used to joke that it isn't a community unless you have sidewalks and libraries. And I thought my little bubble of a community would be enough. There really is only so much the state and city can do, these are not a society. It feels like we are just not a society here and I think my friends and neighbors can hear that shift in my voice. I listen every day to the local gov press conference. Nothing feels stable. We keep gas topped up. But the wife's passport is expired. We are sorting our possessions.
I had teachers in Canada who had fled Hungary, fled Italy. And I always wondered about that. I think about what that would take a whole lot these days. They would have been about my kids age. My own story of immigration isn't as heroic, just the usual myth: I came here to the US with just a honda civic full of stuff, and some ideas of having a life on my own terms. I know the costs, the permanent disconnect from home, how do I impose that on my family? I feel like I have made a great mistake raising my kids here.
Because even the 'good' Americans are incapable of dealing with this moment. Talking about 'good' Americans in 2020 feels like talking about 'good' Germans. I've marched. I've protested - been on the barricades when that meant I could possibly get deported. But so many sit paralyzed, ready with a nihilistic South Park quip or a complaint about taxes. They know what to do - but complain on facebook instead of attending the damn meeting, and most are just going to wait for the election. That's the entirety of the plan. They lack urgency, and for most in my wealthy enclave - they remain well fed and the system is still mostly working for them. Stocks are up you know. I have realized these good Americans aren't my people, even as I stay among them.
What do I see when I look north? Most Canadians hold a very sophisticated and informed view of their large adult brother America - its a constant part of the discourse there. I remain socially connected and follow the media, and there has been a significant change in Canada in the last few months. Canadians just don't seem to be afraid of upsetting Americans. Canadians aren't couching their criticisms or contextualizing their points. Privately or publicly. They aren't trying to assure whoever they are talking to that yes, they know all about this great US history or that group of fine Americans, or 'Red states, am I right?' Canadians are yelling and they not apologizing. Americans are dangerous and can't be trusted.
posted by zenon at 11:59 AM on July 16, 2020 [20 favorites]
I used to joke that it isn't a community unless you have sidewalks and libraries. And I thought my little bubble of a community would be enough. There really is only so much the state and city can do, these are not a society. It feels like we are just not a society here and I think my friends and neighbors can hear that shift in my voice. I listen every day to the local gov press conference. Nothing feels stable. We keep gas topped up. But the wife's passport is expired. We are sorting our possessions.
I had teachers in Canada who had fled Hungary, fled Italy. And I always wondered about that. I think about what that would take a whole lot these days. They would have been about my kids age. My own story of immigration isn't as heroic, just the usual myth: I came here to the US with just a honda civic full of stuff, and some ideas of having a life on my own terms. I know the costs, the permanent disconnect from home, how do I impose that on my family? I feel like I have made a great mistake raising my kids here.
Because even the 'good' Americans are incapable of dealing with this moment. Talking about 'good' Americans in 2020 feels like talking about 'good' Germans. I've marched. I've protested - been on the barricades when that meant I could possibly get deported. But so many sit paralyzed, ready with a nihilistic South Park quip or a complaint about taxes. They know what to do - but complain on facebook instead of attending the damn meeting, and most are just going to wait for the election. That's the entirety of the plan. They lack urgency, and for most in my wealthy enclave - they remain well fed and the system is still mostly working for them. Stocks are up you know. I have realized these good Americans aren't my people, even as I stay among them.
What do I see when I look north? Most Canadians hold a very sophisticated and informed view of their large adult brother America - its a constant part of the discourse there. I remain socially connected and follow the media, and there has been a significant change in Canada in the last few months. Canadians just don't seem to be afraid of upsetting Americans. Canadians aren't couching their criticisms or contextualizing their points. Privately or publicly. They aren't trying to assure whoever they are talking to that yes, they know all about this great US history or that group of fine Americans, or 'Red states, am I right?' Canadians are yelling and they not apologizing. Americans are dangerous and can't be trusted.
posted by zenon at 11:59 AM on July 16, 2020 [20 favorites]
Really wish being able to shut down state borders was possible
Hey, New York State is trying a low level version of exactly that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:01 PM on July 16, 2020
Hey, New York State is trying a low level version of exactly that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:01 PM on July 16, 2020
This stuff just makes me so sad.
I'm an American citizen who has lived here since infancy. My husband is an immigrant, an Indian citizen who grew up in a Gulf state. Thanks to him and other international friends, I have learned a lot about what it means to navigate immigration & travel as someone with a less-potent passport. I have also gained, through his eyes, a more optimistic perspective on what a privilege and an opportunity it can be to live and work in the US - even as I've continually pointed out that this is a deeply flawed place, and I've maintained the opinion that we'd do well to specifically tailor our careers to try to chart our way to somewhere better.
A few years ago, before we were married, we very seriously considered moving to New Zealand (which was, at the time, about the easiest place for both of us to get work visas) when things didn't look good for his US visa. However, the US visa situation did end up turning out okay, and for many reasons, it made sense for us to choose to stay. He was thrilled about it - as he sees it, living & working here is a truly tremendous opportunity for him - while I was somewhat disappointed. Over the course of our relationship, I've had to learn to express my (valid!) criticisms of the US and American culture without being tone-deaf to the fact that living here is a privilege, and one that is denied to many.
In the last few weeks, though, the tenor of our conversation has changed, and my husband has started to see my perspective on the toxicity of American individualism differently. We've started to explore potential exit opportunities (for the medium/long term...not planning on crossing any borders now, don't worry!), but yeah, it's complicated. I feel very guilty taking advantage of some relatively-favorable-to-me rules in other countries when those are not open to others. I worry about the forms that racism & discrimination would take in other places - I know that my husband and I (and our hypothetical children) would have different experiences in each of the places we're exploring, and that even under current circumstances, my white American privilege doesn't end at our border. I do also feel a certain amount of responsibility to stay and try to make things better here, although, yeah, that one is complicated.
I hope that this is a healthy course correction for the role that the US plays in the world. It would be cool if a diminished international stature would help our self-awareness as Americans a little bit, but I know that history doesn't seem to have a lot of examples that support that.
I don't know, world. I'm sorry on behalf of my country. In the long term, as you pick up our slack, I hope that you continue to offer opportunities to immigrants as well - and that you do it better than we have.
posted by mosst at 12:04 PM on July 16, 2020 [14 favorites]
I'm an American citizen who has lived here since infancy. My husband is an immigrant, an Indian citizen who grew up in a Gulf state. Thanks to him and other international friends, I have learned a lot about what it means to navigate immigration & travel as someone with a less-potent passport. I have also gained, through his eyes, a more optimistic perspective on what a privilege and an opportunity it can be to live and work in the US - even as I've continually pointed out that this is a deeply flawed place, and I've maintained the opinion that we'd do well to specifically tailor our careers to try to chart our way to somewhere better.
A few years ago, before we were married, we very seriously considered moving to New Zealand (which was, at the time, about the easiest place for both of us to get work visas) when things didn't look good for his US visa. However, the US visa situation did end up turning out okay, and for many reasons, it made sense for us to choose to stay. He was thrilled about it - as he sees it, living & working here is a truly tremendous opportunity for him - while I was somewhat disappointed. Over the course of our relationship, I've had to learn to express my (valid!) criticisms of the US and American culture without being tone-deaf to the fact that living here is a privilege, and one that is denied to many.
In the last few weeks, though, the tenor of our conversation has changed, and my husband has started to see my perspective on the toxicity of American individualism differently. We've started to explore potential exit opportunities (for the medium/long term...not planning on crossing any borders now, don't worry!), but yeah, it's complicated. I feel very guilty taking advantage of some relatively-favorable-to-me rules in other countries when those are not open to others. I worry about the forms that racism & discrimination would take in other places - I know that my husband and I (and our hypothetical children) would have different experiences in each of the places we're exploring, and that even under current circumstances, my white American privilege doesn't end at our border. I do also feel a certain amount of responsibility to stay and try to make things better here, although, yeah, that one is complicated.
I hope that this is a healthy course correction for the role that the US plays in the world. It would be cool if a diminished international stature would help our self-awareness as Americans a little bit, but I know that history doesn't seem to have a lot of examples that support that.
I don't know, world. I'm sorry on behalf of my country. In the long term, as you pick up our slack, I hope that you continue to offer opportunities to immigrants as well - and that you do it better than we have.
posted by mosst at 12:04 PM on July 16, 2020 [14 favorites]
Hillary Flammond: My uncle was born in America.Top Secret!, Zucker, Abrams and Zucker, 1984
Nick Rivers: Oh, really?
Hillary Flammond: But he was one of the lucky ones. He managed to escape in a balloon during the Jimmy Carter presidency.
posted by MrVisible at 12:05 PM on July 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
(psst) the US is already fudging up its numbers.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:05 PM on July 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:05 PM on July 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
What do I see when I look north? Most Canadians hold a very sophisticated and informed view of their large adult brother America - its a constant part of the discourse there.
John Bartlett Brebner once wrote, “Americans are benevolently ignorant about Canada, while Canadians are malevolently well-informed about the United States.” And sitting here are the edge of the media-saturated American discourse, we get quite a lot of information about the US, even more than our own. If I were in a pub quiz and I had to start naming Vice Presidents of the US going from the current one backwards chronologically, I could get back to about the Truman administration before I had to pause to try to rustle up a name. Can I name three Canadian deputy prime ministers? Not with any certainty.
I suspect it is why Canada is so overrepresented in writers’ rooms for American comedy shows. We understand their sacred myths without necessarily subscribing to them. It makes for an easier time writing satire.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:21 PM on July 16, 2020 [25 favorites]
John Bartlett Brebner once wrote, “Americans are benevolently ignorant about Canada, while Canadians are malevolently well-informed about the United States.” And sitting here are the edge of the media-saturated American discourse, we get quite a lot of information about the US, even more than our own. If I were in a pub quiz and I had to start naming Vice Presidents of the US going from the current one backwards chronologically, I could get back to about the Truman administration before I had to pause to try to rustle up a name. Can I name three Canadian deputy prime ministers? Not with any certainty.
I suspect it is why Canada is so overrepresented in writers’ rooms for American comedy shows. We understand their sacred myths without necessarily subscribing to them. It makes for an easier time writing satire.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:21 PM on July 16, 2020 [25 favorites]
It's pretty hilarious that the US will more than likely start fudging numbers, something right-wingers were accusing China of doing when that country started posted lower numbers. "You can't trust their government to tell the world the truth!" they claimed.
There's a certain integrity to right-wingers. If they accuse someone else of doing something you can be pretty sure it's because they'd do it themselves if they could get away with it.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:33 PM on July 16, 2020 [28 favorites]
There's a certain integrity to right-wingers. If they accuse someone else of doing something you can be pretty sure it's because they'd do it themselves if they could get away with it.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:33 PM on July 16, 2020 [28 favorites]
nono, you can be sure they're doing it themselves but just haven't been caught (or don't even care)
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:35 PM on July 16, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:35 PM on July 16, 2020 [9 favorites]
Really wish being able to shut down state borders was possible
We're in the early stages of doing just that. There is case law to support forcing people to quarantine when they enter a state and you can bet vacationers aren't going to do it. Start enforcing a quarantine with fines and expulsion and I suspect you'll see a lot fewer of those fun-in-the-sun types.
Frankly I think you could stop 90% with checkpoints at major state border crossings anyway.
Or we could hire Mexicans to build walls between states. :-)
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:42 PM on July 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
We're in the early stages of doing just that. There is case law to support forcing people to quarantine when they enter a state and you can bet vacationers aren't going to do it. Start enforcing a quarantine with fines and expulsion and I suspect you'll see a lot fewer of those fun-in-the-sun types.
Frankly I think you could stop 90% with checkpoints at major state border crossings anyway.
Or we could hire Mexicans to build walls between states. :-)
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:42 PM on July 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
COVID is laying bare the farce that is the rugged individual. The only way to be safe and prevent yourself from getting sick is to take steps that protect others and to encourage others to take steps that protect you.
Indeed, rugged individualism is more of a hobby, practiced in short bursts between Wal-Mart runs. Like wearing cowboy hats and boots while driving your F150 on your way to your accounting office job. I guess we just need more images of cowboys in bandana masks to promote useful health measures in the midwest.
Like, this pandemic thing is what preppers were supposed to be preparing for. I guess I just get to be thankful they're not breaking into my home with detcord and robbing me at gunpoint for canned food, and just coughing at people in the checkout line?
posted by pwnguin at 12:44 PM on July 16, 2020 [11 favorites]
Indeed, rugged individualism is more of a hobby, practiced in short bursts between Wal-Mart runs. Like wearing cowboy hats and boots while driving your F150 on your way to your accounting office job. I guess we just need more images of cowboys in bandana masks to promote useful health measures in the midwest.
Like, this pandemic thing is what preppers were supposed to be preparing for. I guess I just get to be thankful they're not breaking into my home with detcord and robbing me at gunpoint for canned food, and just coughing at people in the checkout line?
posted by pwnguin at 12:44 PM on July 16, 2020 [11 favorites]
Can I name three Canadian deputy prime ministers? Not with any certainty.
Well to be fair, there have only been 10 of them, and some prime ministers don't even bother appointing them. Plus the deputy prime minister isn't on the ticket in an election, so their name isn't blasted all over the place in the same way.
posted by oulipian at 1:02 PM on July 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
Well to be fair, there have only been 10 of them, and some prime ministers don't even bother appointing them. Plus the deputy prime minister isn't on the ticket in an election, so their name isn't blasted all over the place in the same way.
posted by oulipian at 1:02 PM on July 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
We understand their sacred myths without necessarily subscribing to them. It makes for an easier time writing satire.
like casinos in Windsor. Ya, a great Kids in the Hall. " I'm squishing your boarders" Alot of news sites are covering Michigan surge and ascibing alot of blame to parties and bars. masks, seen people curse the need then blame the Governor. But, I have seen like a hundred percent increase in mask usage in stores. But that's my little neck 60 miles from Canada s boarder. The trains of commerce with billions a day flow.
while the sentiment kinda hurts, I fully understand it.
ironically, the 'Zombie survival guide' is quite handy.
posted by clavdivs at 1:06 PM on July 16, 2020
like casinos in Windsor. Ya, a great Kids in the Hall. " I'm squishing your boarders" Alot of news sites are covering Michigan surge and ascibing alot of blame to parties and bars. masks, seen people curse the need then blame the Governor. But, I have seen like a hundred percent increase in mask usage in stores. But that's my little neck 60 miles from Canada s boarder. The trains of commerce with billions a day flow.
while the sentiment kinda hurts, I fully understand it.
ironically, the 'Zombie survival guide' is quite handy.
posted by clavdivs at 1:06 PM on July 16, 2020
In a general sense Trump and his enablers, as well as the covid deniers, are backward looking conservatives , meaning they are trying to ignore a change in the world and pretending that that world as it was in 2019 can be brought back.
This genie can't be put back and the world has now changed even though we can't specifically say in what ways.
There will need to be a vaccine before broad-scale recovery can be contemplated and I believe (well, hope) there will be a vaccine. Though, if the deniers were correct in saying it was just like the flu, it may not confer lifetime immunity; that would be a game changer too.
My prediction is that the USA and UK will be greatly diminished on the world stage and that Russia and China will be more prominent. Scores will be settled. The rest isn't likely to be nice for us in the UK, my only hope is that Scotland declares independence and joins the EU before everything collapses.
There is no going back from this.
posted by epo at 1:07 PM on July 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
This genie can't be put back and the world has now changed even though we can't specifically say in what ways.
There will need to be a vaccine before broad-scale recovery can be contemplated and I believe (well, hope) there will be a vaccine. Though, if the deniers were correct in saying it was just like the flu, it may not confer lifetime immunity; that would be a game changer too.
My prediction is that the USA and UK will be greatly diminished on the world stage and that Russia and China will be more prominent. Scores will be settled. The rest isn't likely to be nice for us in the UK, my only hope is that Scotland declares independence and joins the EU before everything collapses.
There is no going back from this.
posted by epo at 1:07 PM on July 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
"You gotta fight, for your right....to party"
-David Lettermen paraphrasing the ' Beastie Boys'.
posted by clavdivs at 1:09 PM on July 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
-David Lettermen paraphrasing the ' Beastie Boys'.
posted by clavdivs at 1:09 PM on July 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
Frankly I think you could stop 90% with checkpoints at major state border crossings anyway.
The problem is some determined dipshit would go out, get COVID-19, then travel to "secured" green zones on the back roads just as a middle finger to liberals and to prove they can do it.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:15 PM on July 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
The problem is some determined dipshit would go out, get COVID-19, then travel to "secured" green zones on the back roads just as a middle finger to liberals and to prove they can do it.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:15 PM on July 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
David Lettermen paraphrasing
Isn't that a direct quote?
posted by biffa at 1:18 PM on July 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
Isn't that a direct quote?
posted by biffa at 1:18 PM on July 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
Though, if the deniers were correct in saying it was just like the flu, it may not confer lifetime immunity; that would be a game changer too.
It's not like the flu. The flu mutates extremely quickly, antigen drifts quickly, and antigen shifts regularly. COVID-19 hasn't really done any of these so far. Even with a lack of antibodies, there's still other adaptive immune defenses like the memory B and T cells that sit in the lymphatic system, ready to fire up again even if there's not antibodies floating around in blood.
Not to mention most of the fatalistic aspects of the virus appear to come from the body's response, not the virus itself. Drugs that can help regulate those responses are being tested and protocols are painstakingly being worked out for immune modulation. Dexamethasone for instance is looking like a candidate for helping with severe cases.
We shouldn't worry ourselves of regular rules not applying and just go with sane defaults until shown otherwise. Going down that rabbit hole leads to very dark places very quickly for no good reason.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:23 PM on July 16, 2020 [8 favorites]
It's not like the flu. The flu mutates extremely quickly, antigen drifts quickly, and antigen shifts regularly. COVID-19 hasn't really done any of these so far. Even with a lack of antibodies, there's still other adaptive immune defenses like the memory B and T cells that sit in the lymphatic system, ready to fire up again even if there's not antibodies floating around in blood.
Not to mention most of the fatalistic aspects of the virus appear to come from the body's response, not the virus itself. Drugs that can help regulate those responses are being tested and protocols are painstakingly being worked out for immune modulation. Dexamethasone for instance is looking like a candidate for helping with severe cases.
We shouldn't worry ourselves of regular rules not applying and just go with sane defaults until shown otherwise. Going down that rabbit hole leads to very dark places very quickly for no good reason.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:23 PM on July 16, 2020 [8 favorites]
nobody are assholes the way that the UK are assholes.
God, quoted for truth. Let me tell you...if you ever run across me having some kind of medical emergency where my heart's stopped or my blood pressure's dangerously low, just bend down and whisper something in my ear like "So what was it like transitioning from a UK student visa to a work visa?"...and then stand the hell back. Maybe cover the ears of any sensitive children in the area.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 1:42 PM on July 16, 2020 [15 favorites]
God, quoted for truth. Let me tell you...if you ever run across me having some kind of medical emergency where my heart's stopped or my blood pressure's dangerously low, just bend down and whisper something in my ear like "So what was it like transitioning from a UK student visa to a work visa?"...and then stand the hell back. Maybe cover the ears of any sensitive children in the area.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 1:42 PM on July 16, 2020 [15 favorites]
Isn't that a direct quote?
debatable but the Beastie boys didnt have the same hesitation marker as Dave.
posted by clavdivs at 2:25 PM on July 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
debatable but the Beastie boys didnt have the same hesitation marker as Dave.
posted by clavdivs at 2:25 PM on July 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
A close friend has just started the process of applying for German citizenship. When told he would have to renounce his US citizenship, he intended to say that he had no plans to return to the US. What he actually blurted out was "My country is dead." The clerk gave a solemn nod.
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 2:33 PM on July 16, 2020 [40 favorites]
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 2:33 PM on July 16, 2020 [40 favorites]
I’ll be able to get a passport in the country I’m in a couple years before my US one expires. I’m glad I got out and fearful for those who are there.
posted by affectionateborg at 2:35 PM on July 16, 2020
posted by affectionateborg at 2:35 PM on July 16, 2020
I'm a Canadian, and as of about 3 weeks ago now a full legal permanent resident of the United States. In February, Mr. Dorinda and I bought a home on the opposite coast, and spent much time dreaming and thrilling over how wonderful it will be to live a short 3-hour drive from our families, rather than the 5+ hour flight that has been the reality for nearly 20 years now. Just after closing on the house, we started the application process for our Nexus cards, and encouraged all our family members back home to do the same. We started planning a pregnancy in earnest. We had worked and planned and looked forward to this wonderful proximity to family and all that that means in both practical and intangible terms for years and (with growing intensity, as we planned the cross-country move) months, and it was finally going to be possible. Then everything flipped on its head, including all our plans.
And now? I'm honestly not sure when we will see our families again. Sure, technically there are loopholes and leniencies that we (with our many forms of privilege) could take advantage of...but we're trying to do the right thing and abide by the spirit of these closures and restrictions. So for now, we're sitting in our lovely new house, gazing forlornly at the guest bedroom that we don't expect to be filled any time in this calendar year, and probably beyond.
Growing up within a few hours' drive of the 49th parallel (as most Canadians do!), the idea of the US/Canadian border seemed (to white, privileged, Canadian me) more a symbol than a serious barrier, a minor inconvenience most of the year, and a planned-for delay in mid-summer that we took with good-natured eye-rolling....the notion of the "longest undefended border in the world" was a phrase that was wielded with pride on both sides of the line.
And now? It is truly bizarre and heartbreaking, and eye-opening, and anxiety-producing, and despair-spurring to be stuck on the wrong side of an imaginary line that I have taken for granted my entire life. It feels like my family is within shouting distance, just across the Sound and the Salish Sea, and yet farther than they've ever felt, even when the miles between us were in the thousands. It's a new world for me, and every day I regret the decisions I've made that have led to this geographic conundrum more and more. I want to go home, I want this new house to feel like a home, full of family and friends. I want to stop steeping in the irony of moving 3000 miles across the country only to be find the last 100 to be impassible.
I know, in the grand scheme of things, that these hurts are nowhere near as profound as those faced by many of my neighbours and community members, and I know that the fact that these realities are just coming home to me now is an indication of just how unbelievably sheltered from harm I have been my entire life. But it hurts and it scares me nonetheless.
posted by Dorinda at 2:42 PM on July 16, 2020 [28 favorites]
And now? I'm honestly not sure when we will see our families again. Sure, technically there are loopholes and leniencies that we (with our many forms of privilege) could take advantage of...but we're trying to do the right thing and abide by the spirit of these closures and restrictions. So for now, we're sitting in our lovely new house, gazing forlornly at the guest bedroom that we don't expect to be filled any time in this calendar year, and probably beyond.
Growing up within a few hours' drive of the 49th parallel (as most Canadians do!), the idea of the US/Canadian border seemed (to white, privileged, Canadian me) more a symbol than a serious barrier, a minor inconvenience most of the year, and a planned-for delay in mid-summer that we took with good-natured eye-rolling....the notion of the "longest undefended border in the world" was a phrase that was wielded with pride on both sides of the line.
And now? It is truly bizarre and heartbreaking, and eye-opening, and anxiety-producing, and despair-spurring to be stuck on the wrong side of an imaginary line that I have taken for granted my entire life. It feels like my family is within shouting distance, just across the Sound and the Salish Sea, and yet farther than they've ever felt, even when the miles between us were in the thousands. It's a new world for me, and every day I regret the decisions I've made that have led to this geographic conundrum more and more. I want to go home, I want this new house to feel like a home, full of family and friends. I want to stop steeping in the irony of moving 3000 miles across the country only to be find the last 100 to be impassible.
I know, in the grand scheme of things, that these hurts are nowhere near as profound as those faced by many of my neighbours and community members, and I know that the fact that these realities are just coming home to me now is an indication of just how unbelievably sheltered from harm I have been my entire life. But it hurts and it scares me nonetheless.
posted by Dorinda at 2:42 PM on July 16, 2020 [28 favorites]
As an American, I'm always shocked when fellow Americans say they don't have a passport. Like, do they "travel" one state over? To Disneyland? Where everything is basically the same, to a tourist area, or somewhere even more artificial and saccharine?
Probably ties in the idea that "freedom" is unique to the USA.
posted by meowzilla at 2:42 PM on July 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
Probably ties in the idea that "freedom" is unique to the USA.
posted by meowzilla at 2:42 PM on July 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
As a Brit, I must apologise to anyone who has had to deal with our visa and immigration system. I've had friends over the years who have tangled with them, and the level of couldn't-care-less, incompetence and occasional (apparent) malice is horrible.
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 2:53 PM on July 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 2:53 PM on July 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
Some Canadians are still making regular (essential) trips across the border, and it seems that they are some of our best eyes on the ground, having seen first-hand what's happening on both sides: COVID-19 situation in the U.S. 'scary' and 'dangerous,' Canadian long-haul truckers warn.
The border closure has been extended by another month, to August 21. This closure is not unilateral, and has to be renewed each month. Some U.S. members of Congress are lobbying for a reopening. More than 80 per cent of Canadians favour keeping the border restrictions in place.
posted by heatherlogan at 2:55 PM on July 16, 2020 [10 favorites]
The border closure has been extended by another month, to August 21. This closure is not unilateral, and has to be renewed each month. Some U.S. members of Congress are lobbying for a reopening. More than 80 per cent of Canadians favour keeping the border restrictions in place.
posted by heatherlogan at 2:55 PM on July 16, 2020 [10 favorites]
Many people can’t afford to travel internationally esp w kids and also don’t have the vacation time. So they go to the Grand Canyon or Disneyland or the campground at the beach or head down to valley or up to the mountains in their camper.
There is so much to see and do in the US and I did a lot of it. I don’t fault people for thinking the continental US is enough. There’s stuff that I probably will never see again that I wish I could (White Sands NM, Longwood Gardens, the Chicago Field Museum).
My grandparents did not have passports. My mom got one when her boyfriend was doing some international speaking gigs and she was his +1.
posted by affectionateborg at 2:56 PM on July 16, 2020 [29 favorites]
There is so much to see and do in the US and I did a lot of it. I don’t fault people for thinking the continental US is enough. There’s stuff that I probably will never see again that I wish I could (White Sands NM, Longwood Gardens, the Chicago Field Museum).
My grandparents did not have passports. My mom got one when her boyfriend was doing some international speaking gigs and she was his +1.
posted by affectionateborg at 2:56 PM on July 16, 2020 [29 favorites]
One was a coworker and I always assumed she was cool, then started interacting more online since the pandemic began and I'm realizing she talks like a cop. It is so weird. Why waste being born in France on coming to the US and railing against "welfare"??
I remember an article (maybe this one, maybe something related)a few years ago that noted that people born in Texas voted for Beto by a slim margin over Ted Cruz, whereas people who moved more recently to Texas voted for Ted Cruz by a significant margin. There's some speculation that lots of those more recent Texans moved there in part because of the mystique of libertarian, cowboy Texas, which was played up a lot more than the neighborly, "look out for each other" brand of Texas.
posted by pykrete jungle at 3:08 PM on July 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
I remember an article (maybe this one, maybe something related)a few years ago that noted that people born in Texas voted for Beto by a slim margin over Ted Cruz, whereas people who moved more recently to Texas voted for Ted Cruz by a significant margin. There's some speculation that lots of those more recent Texans moved there in part because of the mystique of libertarian, cowboy Texas, which was played up a lot more than the neighborly, "look out for each other" brand of Texas.
posted by pykrete jungle at 3:08 PM on July 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
Like, do they "travel" one state over? To Disneyland? Where everything is basically the same, to a tourist area, or somewhere even more artificial and saccharine?
Such contempt for people who can't afford to cross an ocean, or who don't want to burn the carbon required to do so?
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 3:15 PM on July 16, 2020 [46 favorites]
Such contempt for people who can't afford to cross an ocean, or who don't want to burn the carbon required to do so?
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 3:15 PM on July 16, 2020 [46 favorites]
Speaking of the power of the passport, there's this article from 2015, talking about the relative power of passports, and how they can be a status symbol in themselves:
A passport is swag. It is a mark of pedigree. It guarantees the holder rights and protection, sure, but more immediately, a certain kind of passport implies certain things about the holder in much the same way a Rolex implies you are rich or a posh British accent implies intelligence on most terrible TV series.
The color of one’s passport allows for silly (and often loud) statements like “DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?!” (The irony of this question, posed while holding official identification, is hardly lost on me). Men and women now rank potential spouses based on the flexibility of their paper-work, and even Wande Coal understands the power of “blue pali” and “red pali.”
So really, the contemporary passport serves two main functions: it confirms your national identity, and it is a travel document.
There is power in both.
The first function is pretty straight-forward. A money green passport says you’re Dupe, Oghene, or Salisu from Nigeria. If it’s burgundy you might be from the United Kingdom. If it’s blue you could come from the United States, perhaps black for Mexico and India. I could go on.
This matters. In a world of unequal realities where the achievability of dreams changes as you cross borders, simply being from a certain place can be aspiration enough. Greater wealth, better healthcare, and better education all attach themselves to certain nationalities while being absent for others.
Now, the value of red (UK) and blue (us) pali (passports) is at a historic low.
posted by pykrete jungle at 3:15 PM on July 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
A passport is swag. It is a mark of pedigree. It guarantees the holder rights and protection, sure, but more immediately, a certain kind of passport implies certain things about the holder in much the same way a Rolex implies you are rich or a posh British accent implies intelligence on most terrible TV series.
The color of one’s passport allows for silly (and often loud) statements like “DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?!” (The irony of this question, posed while holding official identification, is hardly lost on me). Men and women now rank potential spouses based on the flexibility of their paper-work, and even Wande Coal understands the power of “blue pali” and “red pali.”
So really, the contemporary passport serves two main functions: it confirms your national identity, and it is a travel document.
There is power in both.
The first function is pretty straight-forward. A money green passport says you’re Dupe, Oghene, or Salisu from Nigeria. If it’s burgundy you might be from the United Kingdom. If it’s blue you could come from the United States, perhaps black for Mexico and India. I could go on.
This matters. In a world of unequal realities where the achievability of dreams changes as you cross borders, simply being from a certain place can be aspiration enough. Greater wealth, better healthcare, and better education all attach themselves to certain nationalities while being absent for others.
Now, the value of red (UK) and blue (us) pali (passports) is at a historic low.
posted by pykrete jungle at 3:15 PM on July 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
the US/Canadian border seemed (to white, privileged, Canadian me) more a symbol than a serious barrier, a minor inconvenience most of the year, and a planned-for delay in mid-summer
Let me tell you, you do not want to cross the Alaska/Yukon border in mid-winter. The border guards do cavity searches just to keep their hands warm.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:16 PM on July 16, 2020 [9 favorites]
Let me tell you, you do not want to cross the Alaska/Yukon border in mid-winter. The border guards do cavity searches just to keep their hands warm.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:16 PM on July 16, 2020 [9 favorites]
As an American, I'm always shocked when fellow Americans say they don't have a passport. Like, do they "travel" one state over? To Disneyland? Where everything is basically the same, to a tourist area, or somewhere even more artificial and saccharine?
Hi. When I moved to Boston I drove from San Francisco. Along I-80, then I-90.
Everything is very much not "basically the same". The scenery on the west side of Salt Lake City and the east side of Salt Lake City couldn't be more fucking different little alone the rest of the country.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:20 PM on July 16, 2020 [25 favorites]
Hi. When I moved to Boston I drove from San Francisco. Along I-80, then I-90.
Everything is very much not "basically the same". The scenery on the west side of Salt Lake City and the east side of Salt Lake City couldn't be more fucking different little alone the rest of the country.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:20 PM on July 16, 2020 [25 favorites]
Everything is very much not "basically the same".
And yet culturally it is much the same. You only really start to notice the depth of the brainwashing/assumed-default worldview once you've lived outside America for a decade or so.
posted by heatherlogan at 3:26 PM on July 16, 2020 [7 favorites]
And yet culturally it is much the same. You only really start to notice the depth of the brainwashing/assumed-default worldview once you've lived outside America for a decade or so.
posted by heatherlogan at 3:26 PM on July 16, 2020 [7 favorites]
As an American, I'm always shocked when fellow Americans say they don't have a passport. Like, do they "travel" one state over? To Disneyland? Where everything is basically the same, to a tourist area, or somewhere even more artificial and saccharine?
I'm not. And I say this as an American that was on a trans pacific flight before the age of 1 and traveled every summer for most of my childhood. I've always loved traveling and it was a rare year if I didn't cross the continent as least once.
However, I've known many folks that have never left their state. Or even hometown area. Not everyone has the resources, education, or money to leave. Just applying for a passport costs money some can't afford. For some people, they may suffer from mental or physical disability to travel. Some people even don't have the interest, they are content in their lives.
posted by xtine at 3:39 PM on July 16, 2020 [24 favorites]
I'm not. And I say this as an American that was on a trans pacific flight before the age of 1 and traveled every summer for most of my childhood. I've always loved traveling and it was a rare year if I didn't cross the continent as least once.
However, I've known many folks that have never left their state. Or even hometown area. Not everyone has the resources, education, or money to leave. Just applying for a passport costs money some can't afford. For some people, they may suffer from mental or physical disability to travel. Some people even don't have the interest, they are content in their lives.
posted by xtine at 3:39 PM on July 16, 2020 [24 favorites]
As an American, I'm always shocked when fellow Americans say they don't have a passport. Like, do they "travel" one state over? To Disneyland? Where everything is basically the same, to a tourist area, or somewhere even more artificial and saccharine?
Wow. Wow. The continental United States encompasses 2,959,064.44 contiguous square miles, laced with 2,678,000 miles of paved road, and shaped by six major biomes, from the tundra (see: the Rocky Mountains of Colorado) to the temperate rain forests of northwest Washington. One could feasibly dedicate months to intracountry travel without once resorting to "artificial and saccharine" tourist areas. Throw in Hawaii and Alaska and the breadth of adventure widens considerably.
Perhaps people might wish to dedicate their resources to domestic travel because we live in a huge country with a lot to see, and for some folk, wrapping their minds and their time around trying to understand how one country can hold deserts and deciduous forests, world-class cities and ghost towns in high deserts, trying to see how regional histories influence national directions -- that is as mind-broadening as taking the Grand Tour of another continent.
posted by sobell at 3:42 PM on July 16, 2020 [51 favorites]
Wow. Wow. The continental United States encompasses 2,959,064.44 contiguous square miles, laced with 2,678,000 miles of paved road, and shaped by six major biomes, from the tundra (see: the Rocky Mountains of Colorado) to the temperate rain forests of northwest Washington. One could feasibly dedicate months to intracountry travel without once resorting to "artificial and saccharine" tourist areas. Throw in Hawaii and Alaska and the breadth of adventure widens considerably.
Perhaps people might wish to dedicate their resources to domestic travel because we live in a huge country with a lot to see, and for some folk, wrapping their minds and their time around trying to understand how one country can hold deserts and deciduous forests, world-class cities and ghost towns in high deserts, trying to see how regional histories influence national directions -- that is as mind-broadening as taking the Grand Tour of another continent.
posted by sobell at 3:42 PM on July 16, 2020 [51 favorites]
Health care, education, modesty, diplomacy, etc... these institutions and virtues were not those of "losers", but of those who work for and value a civil society.
The idea that any non-American living in a democratic country would ever want to move to America seems on its face to be absurd.
and as time goes on it will only get more and more desperate. This makes America dangerous, to Canada and to the rest of the world.
.
posted by infini at 3:48 PM on July 16, 2020
The idea that any non-American living in a democratic country would ever want to move to America seems on its face to be absurd.
and as time goes on it will only get more and more desperate. This makes America dangerous, to Canada and to the rest of the world.
.
posted by infini at 3:48 PM on July 16, 2020
As an American, I'm always shocked when fellow Americans say they don't have a passport. Like, do they "travel" one state over?
No paid vacation time. Not enough money to "travel" even one state over. It's the American way.
posted by Miss Cellania at 3:51 PM on July 16, 2020 [28 favorites]
No paid vacation time. Not enough money to "travel" even one state over. It's the American way.
posted by Miss Cellania at 3:51 PM on July 16, 2020 [28 favorites]
And yet culturally it is much the same
Don't confuse a brutally-imposed mainstream "apparent culture" with an actual monoculture. There's plenty of cultural variation if you care to look, it's just being marginalized by Whitey-McWhiteperson and their carefully-polished F-150 with a Calvin sticker.
posted by aramaic at 4:05 PM on July 16, 2020 [24 favorites]
Don't confuse a brutally-imposed mainstream "apparent culture" with an actual monoculture. There's plenty of cultural variation if you care to look, it's just being marginalized by Whitey-McWhiteperson and their carefully-polished F-150 with a Calvin sticker.
posted by aramaic at 4:05 PM on July 16, 2020 [24 favorites]
The US, meanwhile, always seems to make me feel like a dick for having left in the first place (do they behave this way toward citizens? or is it just the rest of us?)
Definitely towards citizens, too.
TSA agent: Where are you returning from?
Ghidorah: (In a friendly, hey, I'm back in America voice) Japan.
TSA: How long were you there?
G: I live there.
TSA: (Suddenly hostile and suspicious) WHY ARE YOU COMING BACK?
G: (euphoria on coming home utterly gone) TO VISIT MY FAMILY.
That's not even including the time where, before getting married, Mrs. Ghidorah and I took a trip to Chicago so she could check the place out, and think about whether she would be able to live there, and for me to do a couple grad school interviews. We didn't even really think about it, since, in Japan, we always went through the separate lines for immigration, her, the one for citizens, me, the one for visa holders. So she went in the line for foreign visitors, I went in the line for citizens. When I came out, she was nowhere to be seen. I couldn't see her waiting in line, and was getting a little nervous. Half an hour later, after having asked staff what was happening and getting no response, she came through the checkpoint. She'd been taken to a small room and interrogated for about 20 minutes because instead of having a hotel as her intended address, she had written the address of my aunt's house, where we were going to be staying. This was somehow enough of a problem that they took a woman who at the time spoke very little English into a small room and yelled at her for 20 minutes, demanding to know why she wasn't staying at a hotel.
It might shock you, but we ended up not moving back to the States, and it seems every day like there's another solid reason for being grateful we didn't.
posted by Ghidorah at 4:06 PM on July 16, 2020 [29 favorites]
Definitely towards citizens, too.
TSA agent: Where are you returning from?
Ghidorah: (In a friendly, hey, I'm back in America voice) Japan.
TSA: How long were you there?
G: I live there.
TSA: (Suddenly hostile and suspicious) WHY ARE YOU COMING BACK?
G: (euphoria on coming home utterly gone) TO VISIT MY FAMILY.
That's not even including the time where, before getting married, Mrs. Ghidorah and I took a trip to Chicago so she could check the place out, and think about whether she would be able to live there, and for me to do a couple grad school interviews. We didn't even really think about it, since, in Japan, we always went through the separate lines for immigration, her, the one for citizens, me, the one for visa holders. So she went in the line for foreign visitors, I went in the line for citizens. When I came out, she was nowhere to be seen. I couldn't see her waiting in line, and was getting a little nervous. Half an hour later, after having asked staff what was happening and getting no response, she came through the checkpoint. She'd been taken to a small room and interrogated for about 20 minutes because instead of having a hotel as her intended address, she had written the address of my aunt's house, where we were going to be staying. This was somehow enough of a problem that they took a woman who at the time spoke very little English into a small room and yelled at her for 20 minutes, demanding to know why she wasn't staying at a hotel.
It might shock you, but we ended up not moving back to the States, and it seems every day like there's another solid reason for being grateful we didn't.
posted by Ghidorah at 4:06 PM on July 16, 2020 [29 favorites]
Many people can’t afford to travel internationally esp w kids and also don’t have the vacation time.
Yes, I would never fault an American (or Canadian, or Australian, or Brazilian, or anyone in a large country) for not having a passport. Travel is expensive and takes a long time. Most of my Canadian family have rarely traveled outside of Canada - and even then, it's been only to the US (which didn't require a passport until recently). My mother has traveled outside of Canada and the US twice in her 62 years, and that is not from lack of interest.
And sadly now, she's unlikely to be able to do much traveling at all.
posted by jb at 4:27 PM on July 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
Yes, I would never fault an American (or Canadian, or Australian, or Brazilian, or anyone in a large country) for not having a passport. Travel is expensive and takes a long time. Most of my Canadian family have rarely traveled outside of Canada - and even then, it's been only to the US (which didn't require a passport until recently). My mother has traveled outside of Canada and the US twice in her 62 years, and that is not from lack of interest.
And sadly now, she's unlikely to be able to do much traveling at all.
posted by jb at 4:27 PM on July 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
As an American, I'm always shocked when fellow Americans say they don't have a passport. Like, do they "travel" one state over?
On my 3 or 4 vacation days per year I'm lucky if I make it out of my APARTMENT, much less my NATION.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 4:36 PM on July 16, 2020 [21 favorites]
On my 3 or 4 vacation days per year I'm lucky if I make it out of my APARTMENT, much less my NATION.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 4:36 PM on July 16, 2020 [21 favorites]
Like, do they "travel" one state over? To Disneyland? Where everything is basically the same,
The U.S. is easy to travel in so after my globetrotting days are done I expect to take three or four years and explore the place. I won't even scratch the surface.
Everyplace is much much richer when you travel out of Atlas Obscura.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:48 PM on July 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
The U.S. is easy to travel in so after my globetrotting days are done I expect to take three or four years and explore the place. I won't even scratch the surface.
Everyplace is much much richer when you travel out of Atlas Obscura.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:48 PM on July 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
…In theory. I'd speak to some of those children of people who run a convenience store and see what the actual practical reality of this claim might be, however.
Well, I mean extremely average Korean American Jonny Kim's parents owned a liquor store, and now he's a Navy SEAL combat medic sniper mathematician Harvard MD astronaut. A very typical immigrant story, really.
posted by Comrade_robot at 5:13 PM on July 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
Well, I mean extremely average Korean American Jonny Kim's parents owned a liquor store, and now he's a Navy SEAL combat medic sniper mathematician Harvard MD astronaut. A very typical immigrant story, really.
posted by Comrade_robot at 5:13 PM on July 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
As an American, I'm always shocked when fellow Americans say they don't have a passport. Like, do they "travel" one state over? To Disneyland? Where everything is basically the same, to a tourist area, or somewhere even more artificial and saccharine?
Sigh.
I grew up basically working class, raised by a single grandmother. The vacations we could afford when I was a kid were mostly road trips down to the Oregon coast. We also did a lot of day trips around Washington, the state in which we lived, checking out national parks and the San Juan Islands and the scenic highway loop up in the North Cascades and so many places that I long to see again someday. It's all so beautiful. Have you been there?
The first real vacation I could afford to take as an adult was only about 5 years ago, when I took myself off to New Mexico for a week to explore -- flights to Albuquerque from Seattle were super cheap, it's a place I'd never been, and the timing finally worked out where I could afford a trip and had a manager who would approve a whole week of PTO. Before that, I either had the time to travel but not the money, or had the money but couldn't get the time off. Anyway, New Mexico is fucking gorgeous, and the museums I got to visit were incredible, and I learned so much and had so much fun and ate so much good food. I can't wait to go back someday. Have you been there?
Last summer, I finally got to have that quintessential American experience: a cross-country road trip. Mine wasn't purely for vacation, I was moving and needed to get myself and all of my worldly possessions through three time zones in the space of about a week. Now, I didn't get to linger too long in the places that stirred my heart on that trip, but holy fuck -- Idaho? Montana? The Black Hills areas of Wyoming and South Dakota? Say what you want about the people who live in those areas (and from the way you sneer at your fellow Americans who aren't as privileged as you, I bet we all already know what you'd say, so shhhh), but my god the land is so beautiful. There were times when I wept, trying to take it all in for what may have been the only time in my life that I'll see some of it. And honestly, as chaotic and weird as Wall Drug was in South Dakota, they also had one of the best-stocked specialty bookstores in their compound that I've ever seen -- more regional and tribal history books there than I've ever seen in one place. Anyway, ever been to any of those states?
One of the biggest "wow, I'm so privileged to be sad about this" disappointments for me about this year is that I can't do any more domestic traveling. Now that I'm in Ohio, I'm only a few hours drive away from so many more places than I was back on the West Coast. A friend and I were talking about a road trip to Maine this summer before everything went to shit. I'd been kicking around the idea of trying to get down to the Great Smoky Mountains either for spring wildflower season or autumn leaf season, depending on how all the timing worked out, or popping down to the Shenandoah Valley area to visit friends who are involved in Virginia folklife organizations and are chomping at the bit to show folks some of the wonders of Appalachia. I was so excited about seeing more of this huge country, so much of which I've only seen in photos.
Ironically, this year is the first time in my life that I've had the proper identity/citizenship documentation, the money necessary for the passport fees, and the time available to go deal with the whole application process. I didn't get the ball rolling in time to be one of the lucky people who got to pay the fees and get nothing for it, though. Not sure if I should feel bad because without a passport I'm just one of the Americans that my fellow MeFites like to sneer at, or if I should feel fine about it because sneering at people who haven't traveled internationally is just so cartoonishly jerkish that I actually cannot stop laughing. I mean, really? It's 2020, the unemployment rate is up in the teens, people die from lack of healthcare in this country every day, children go hungry, the staggering gulf of income and opportunity equality is a central topic of our collective discourse... and that's when you decide to talk some shit about Americans who don't have passports? That's some Ivanka-promoting-beans kind of fuckery.
posted by palomar at 5:32 PM on July 16, 2020 [38 favorites]
Sigh.
I grew up basically working class, raised by a single grandmother. The vacations we could afford when I was a kid were mostly road trips down to the Oregon coast. We also did a lot of day trips around Washington, the state in which we lived, checking out national parks and the San Juan Islands and the scenic highway loop up in the North Cascades and so many places that I long to see again someday. It's all so beautiful. Have you been there?
The first real vacation I could afford to take as an adult was only about 5 years ago, when I took myself off to New Mexico for a week to explore -- flights to Albuquerque from Seattle were super cheap, it's a place I'd never been, and the timing finally worked out where I could afford a trip and had a manager who would approve a whole week of PTO. Before that, I either had the time to travel but not the money, or had the money but couldn't get the time off. Anyway, New Mexico is fucking gorgeous, and the museums I got to visit were incredible, and I learned so much and had so much fun and ate so much good food. I can't wait to go back someday. Have you been there?
Last summer, I finally got to have that quintessential American experience: a cross-country road trip. Mine wasn't purely for vacation, I was moving and needed to get myself and all of my worldly possessions through three time zones in the space of about a week. Now, I didn't get to linger too long in the places that stirred my heart on that trip, but holy fuck -- Idaho? Montana? The Black Hills areas of Wyoming and South Dakota? Say what you want about the people who live in those areas (and from the way you sneer at your fellow Americans who aren't as privileged as you, I bet we all already know what you'd say, so shhhh), but my god the land is so beautiful. There were times when I wept, trying to take it all in for what may have been the only time in my life that I'll see some of it. And honestly, as chaotic and weird as Wall Drug was in South Dakota, they also had one of the best-stocked specialty bookstores in their compound that I've ever seen -- more regional and tribal history books there than I've ever seen in one place. Anyway, ever been to any of those states?
One of the biggest "wow, I'm so privileged to be sad about this" disappointments for me about this year is that I can't do any more domestic traveling. Now that I'm in Ohio, I'm only a few hours drive away from so many more places than I was back on the West Coast. A friend and I were talking about a road trip to Maine this summer before everything went to shit. I'd been kicking around the idea of trying to get down to the Great Smoky Mountains either for spring wildflower season or autumn leaf season, depending on how all the timing worked out, or popping down to the Shenandoah Valley area to visit friends who are involved in Virginia folklife organizations and are chomping at the bit to show folks some of the wonders of Appalachia. I was so excited about seeing more of this huge country, so much of which I've only seen in photos.
Ironically, this year is the first time in my life that I've had the proper identity/citizenship documentation, the money necessary for the passport fees, and the time available to go deal with the whole application process. I didn't get the ball rolling in time to be one of the lucky people who got to pay the fees and get nothing for it, though. Not sure if I should feel bad because without a passport I'm just one of the Americans that my fellow MeFites like to sneer at, or if I should feel fine about it because sneering at people who haven't traveled internationally is just so cartoonishly jerkish that I actually cannot stop laughing. I mean, really? It's 2020, the unemployment rate is up in the teens, people die from lack of healthcare in this country every day, children go hungry, the staggering gulf of income and opportunity equality is a central topic of our collective discourse... and that's when you decide to talk some shit about Americans who don't have passports? That's some Ivanka-promoting-beans kind of fuckery.
posted by palomar at 5:32 PM on July 16, 2020 [38 favorites]
Oh, I'm curious... do Canada and Mexico count as international destinations if I traveled to those places back when one didn't need a passport to cross the border from Washington or California? Or must a passport be used in order to achieve the most pure, exalted form of travel?
posted by palomar at 5:51 PM on July 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by palomar at 5:51 PM on July 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
Definitely towards citizens, too.
TSA agent: Where are you returning from?
TSA agents don't question incoming travelers (unless connecting to a different flight). TSA are security rent-a-cops. Customs and Border Protection may ask questions. My American born wife typically gets lot more questions than I do as foreign-born naturalized citizen even as I travel lot more than she does (she travels her fair share).
posted by zeikka at 6:17 PM on July 16, 2020
TSA agent: Where are you returning from?
TSA agents don't question incoming travelers (unless connecting to a different flight). TSA are security rent-a-cops. Customs and Border Protection may ask questions. My American born wife typically gets lot more questions than I do as foreign-born naturalized citizen even as I travel lot more than she does (she travels her fair share).
posted by zeikka at 6:17 PM on July 16, 2020
…In theory. I'd speak to some of those children of people who run a convenience store and see what the actual practical reality of this claim might be, however.
Hello!!! While not exactly a convenience store, my family definitely dedicated their blood, sweat, and tears into a small storefront and through hard work, saving, and determination, rarely having a day off, sent me off to college which gained me access to the professional class. Am I the embodiment of the American Dream with the classic story of my parents coming to America with just a suitcase and a few dollars, and their child becoming a speaker at top industry conferences and even invited for lunch at the White House (Obama era) because of work they did in their career? And I have many friends, coworkers, associates, etc from similar backgrounds with similar stories!!!
If my parents did not immigrate to America, I would definitely not have as good as a life. Or for that matter, they themselves as good a life. If my parents did not immigrate to America, I would be born in an area that is currently being steamrolled by an oppressive regime.
America is going through its share of troubles, but please do not slide into the jaded American persona because there are many, MANY, MANY people that are willing to trade places in a heartbeat, even in this time. And they may come from social democratic countries in which you envy. Or not.
posted by xtine at 6:18 PM on July 16, 2020 [10 favorites]
Hello!!! While not exactly a convenience store, my family definitely dedicated their blood, sweat, and tears into a small storefront and through hard work, saving, and determination, rarely having a day off, sent me off to college which gained me access to the professional class. Am I the embodiment of the American Dream with the classic story of my parents coming to America with just a suitcase and a few dollars, and their child becoming a speaker at top industry conferences and even invited for lunch at the White House (Obama era) because of work they did in their career? And I have many friends, coworkers, associates, etc from similar backgrounds with similar stories!!!
If my parents did not immigrate to America, I would definitely not have as good as a life. Or for that matter, they themselves as good a life. If my parents did not immigrate to America, I would be born in an area that is currently being steamrolled by an oppressive regime.
America is going through its share of troubles, but please do not slide into the jaded American persona because there are many, MANY, MANY people that are willing to trade places in a heartbeat, even in this time. And they may come from social democratic countries in which you envy. Or not.
posted by xtine at 6:18 PM on July 16, 2020 [10 favorites]
I was raised by a single mother who burned all her vacation time taking care of me, so I hardly ever had vacation at all - not even in the US. Even after I was an adult, I didn't travel outside the country until graduate school, for the same reasons as palomar: Either I didn't have the time or I didn't have the money.
Anyway, one definition of "parochial" is:
Sneering at people who haven't traveled is a type of parochialism of its own.
To bring this back to the topic of the post, I do feel trapped here. I've felt trapped for a while. There's no real path for me to pursue citizenship in a country that is less dangerous to me. Right now I'm okay but I worry about how I'm going to survive when my health starts to fail.
The coronavirus restrictions don't really change that much because I think they are mostly going to be temporary. The real problem is that the US fails to take care of its people even though it has plenty of resources to do so, and that's been true for all of my life.
I try to remind myself that I'm very privileged - I'm not at the moment being actively persecuted in my country, for example. I have a pretty high quality of life right now. It feels kind of ... entitled... to be frustrated that I can't just pack up and move to a better country, especially when my government is putting kids in cages because their parents are seeking actual asylum. But ... I feel frustrated nonetheless.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 6:22 PM on July 16, 2020 [23 favorites]
Anyway, one definition of "parochial" is:
having a limited or narrow outlook or scope.Don't be fooled into thinking that because you have had the privilege of traveling outside of the country that you have a wider outlook than the rest of us. Parochialism is a state of mind, not a lack of experiences. It is true that there are plenty of people who are uninterested in the world - but funnily enough, you can find a lot of them as tourists overseas. They see the sights without ever really learning much.
Sneering at people who haven't traveled is a type of parochialism of its own.
To bring this back to the topic of the post, I do feel trapped here. I've felt trapped for a while. There's no real path for me to pursue citizenship in a country that is less dangerous to me. Right now I'm okay but I worry about how I'm going to survive when my health starts to fail.
The coronavirus restrictions don't really change that much because I think they are mostly going to be temporary. The real problem is that the US fails to take care of its people even though it has plenty of resources to do so, and that's been true for all of my life.
I try to remind myself that I'm very privileged - I'm not at the moment being actively persecuted in my country, for example. I have a pretty high quality of life right now. It feels kind of ... entitled... to be frustrated that I can't just pack up and move to a better country, especially when my government is putting kids in cages because their parents are seeking actual asylum. But ... I feel frustrated nonetheless.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 6:22 PM on July 16, 2020 [23 favorites]
My kids and I all have American and Finnish (EU) passports, while my wife has only an American passport. My middle son, at age 11, has now expressed desire to move out of US in few different occasions. Last fall or thereabouts it was due to threat of gun violence, and more recently it was a reaction to the Covid situation here. He has traveled rather widely for his age, so he has perspective on different places, cultures, etc.
All of my kids also identify themselves as (somewhat) Finnish in addition to being American, and while they don't speak Finnish they speak fluent French and understand the the practicalities and opportunities afforded by EU passport.
My wife and I have bounced ideas about relocating (temporarily?) to French Alps if remote work becomes more of a norm for tech workers. Who knows, but these uncertain times certainly fuel thoughts about hacking work-life-living balance in totally new ways [of even thinking about moving across oceans is quite privileged situation].
posted by zeikka at 6:36 PM on July 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
All of my kids also identify themselves as (somewhat) Finnish in addition to being American, and while they don't speak Finnish they speak fluent French and understand the the practicalities and opportunities afforded by EU passport.
My wife and I have bounced ideas about relocating (temporarily?) to French Alps if remote work becomes more of a norm for tech workers. Who knows, but these uncertain times certainly fuel thoughts about hacking work-life-living balance in totally new ways [of even thinking about moving across oceans is quite privileged situation].
posted by zeikka at 6:36 PM on July 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
You know what's really unfortunate about not being able to renew my passport? I don't have any other form of ID, which means I may well not get to vote. It's a damn catch 22 since I can't get a state ID without an unexpired passport. That's what I get for not having the money for the renewal until after coronavirus hit.
If I'm lucky, they'll let me vote with my voter registration card as they have in the past even though the law doesn't allow for that in this state.
My SO is a citizen of an EU country, so she's relatively unrestricted in terms of travel, but since I'm not she wasn't very pleased to learn that I'm stuck here regardless of my personal passport situation. Given how poorly Trump has been handling the pandemic so far, I have a strong suspicion that the restrictions on travel from the US aren't going to go away until at least next year. The Spanish Flu outbreak wasn't actually limited to 1918, after all.
There is no reason whatsoever to believe COVID-19 won't ebb and flow for at least as long, especially if the orange jeebus gets reelected. There are simply too many people who are convinced it's all a hoax to have any chance of real control in this country, even if we had sufficient timely testing capacity and a mountain of contact tracers to follow up on all the positive results. It often takes almost two whole weeks to get results in Florida right now. It needs to be more like two days for contact tracing to have any use whatsoever at slowing the spread.
posted by wierdo at 6:50 PM on July 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
If I'm lucky, they'll let me vote with my voter registration card as they have in the past even though the law doesn't allow for that in this state.
My SO is a citizen of an EU country, so she's relatively unrestricted in terms of travel, but since I'm not she wasn't very pleased to learn that I'm stuck here regardless of my personal passport situation. Given how poorly Trump has been handling the pandemic so far, I have a strong suspicion that the restrictions on travel from the US aren't going to go away until at least next year. The Spanish Flu outbreak wasn't actually limited to 1918, after all.
There is no reason whatsoever to believe COVID-19 won't ebb and flow for at least as long, especially if the orange jeebus gets reelected. There are simply too many people who are convinced it's all a hoax to have any chance of real control in this country, even if we had sufficient timely testing capacity and a mountain of contact tracers to follow up on all the positive results. It often takes almost two whole weeks to get results in Florida right now. It needs to be more like two days for contact tracing to have any use whatsoever at slowing the spread.
posted by wierdo at 6:50 PM on July 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
Hi, so I wrote the article. Long-time MetaFilter reader.
I noticed that a lot of you are talking about how this affects you and your freedoms. Your personal privileges. You're missing the point. In the Global South, our passports are shitty all the time.
Across the colonized world, we are kept locked in by violent borders, to stitch your clothes and be visited by your tourists like animals in a zoo. We feel the same way you do now. We don't like it.
Post-colonial border regimes are a moral abomination as much as feudalism and you need to deeply consider what side of history you want to be on. Freedom to move is a human right, something you feel keenly now that it's taken away, for legitimate quarantine reasons. Well I'm telling you, we're human down here and you're no better than me. Our rights are taken away for no reason besides racism and colonialism and discrimination against the poor.
To be honest, I could give a fuck about your travel plans. The real question is when dark, colonized and poor people - who are not idiotic and plague-ridden like Americans - will be free.
I've written more about this, talking about White Refugees.
posted by indica at 9:42 PM on July 16, 2020 [95 favorites]
I noticed that a lot of you are talking about how this affects you and your freedoms. Your personal privileges. You're missing the point. In the Global South, our passports are shitty all the time.
Across the colonized world, we are kept locked in by violent borders, to stitch your clothes and be visited by your tourists like animals in a zoo. We feel the same way you do now. We don't like it.
Post-colonial border regimes are a moral abomination as much as feudalism and you need to deeply consider what side of history you want to be on. Freedom to move is a human right, something you feel keenly now that it's taken away, for legitimate quarantine reasons. Well I'm telling you, we're human down here and you're no better than me. Our rights are taken away for no reason besides racism and colonialism and discrimination against the poor.
To be honest, I could give a fuck about your travel plans. The real question is when dark, colonized and poor people - who are not idiotic and plague-ridden like Americans - will be free.
I've written more about this, talking about White Refugees.
posted by indica at 9:42 PM on July 16, 2020 [95 favorites]
Hi, so I wrote the article. Long-time MetaFilter reader.
With an account from 2011!
Great articles, BTW.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:32 PM on July 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
With an account from 2011!
Great articles, BTW.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:32 PM on July 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
Perhaps people might wish to dedicate their resources to domestic travel because we live in a huge country with a lot to see, and for some folk, wrapping their minds and their time around trying to understand how one country can hold deserts and deciduous forests, world-class cities and ghost towns in high deserts, trying to see how regional histories influence national directions -- that is as mind-broadening as taking the Grand Tour of another continent.
This. I'm stuck in Massachusetts like a lot of you, and between the Cape & Islands, Lowell, and the Berkshires, there are places and events to take my family on that will mean I can make them well travelled before they even leave the Commonwealth. After that? Then there's Vermont and Maine.
posted by ocschwar at 10:50 PM on July 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
"who are not idiotic and plague-ridden like Americans"
Lovely...
posted by tarvuz at 12:28 AM on July 17, 2020 [3 favorites]
Lovely...
posted by tarvuz at 12:28 AM on July 17, 2020 [3 favorites]
I just want to gently push back on the general tenor of 'america is so huge, there's a lot to do!' while also sympathetically acknowledging it's classist to assume one must have the means to travel internationally, as being really rather irrelevant to the point, the longer this thread goes on. Not many countries are as large as the USA, but what is this attitude as though other places don't have their own regional and micro cultures that's different enough from their hegemony? That's really not the point, and even then, yes I can travel to the relative 'foreignness' of East Malaysia all the way in Borneo and still feel we're of one country, not the least the same currency (never have to think about exchange rates), or at least the same standard language I can resort to (more than can be said for Indians from the north going down south for example! Oh well there's always English).
With Covid-19, domestic tourism truly will be my foreseeable future. But that's not the point here.
posted by cendawanita at 1:08 AM on July 17, 2020 [5 favorites]
With Covid-19, domestic tourism truly will be my foreseeable future. But that's not the point here.
posted by cendawanita at 1:08 AM on July 17, 2020 [5 favorites]
Just read White Refugees and was nodding so hard I got neck ache. I was born to a (soon-to-be) single WW2 refugee mother (OK then, immigrant), pretty much at the bottom of the UK class and economic system. While still incredibly privileged by the standards of a lot of the world, much of what you say resonates strongly.
In the UK, the underclass tended to vote Brexit or stay away from the vote, they're about to discover how that worked out for them.
posted by epo at 2:07 AM on July 17, 2020 [2 favorites]
In the UK, the underclass tended to vote Brexit or stay away from the vote, they're about to discover how that worked out for them.
posted by epo at 2:07 AM on July 17, 2020 [2 favorites]
To be honest, I could give a fuck about your travel plans. The real question is when dark, colonized and poor people - who are not idiotic and plague-ridden like Americans - will be free.
🔥🔥🔥
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:13 AM on July 17, 2020 [5 favorites]
🔥🔥🔥
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:13 AM on July 17, 2020 [5 favorites]
I've written more about this, talking about White Refugees.
I want to say that as the person who called myself a fancy refugee: I am not white. It actually adds another weird complication. Is America shit on race? Yes. Is Germany better? It most definitely is not; in some ways, Europe is worse.
Oppression Olympics is dumb and it's even worse when you think all Americans are white.
posted by dame at 3:18 AM on July 17, 2020
I want to say that as the person who called myself a fancy refugee: I am not white. It actually adds another weird complication. Is America shit on race? Yes. Is Germany better? It most definitely is not; in some ways, Europe is worse.
Oppression Olympics is dumb and it's even worse when you think all Americans are white.
posted by dame at 3:18 AM on July 17, 2020
He wrote that as a Canadian of Sri Lankan background (*and* with also a SL passport, based on TFA). You really would assume that's what he thinks?
posted by cendawanita at 3:51 AM on July 17, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 3:51 AM on July 17, 2020 [2 favorites]
The real question is when dark, colonized and poor people - who are not idiotic and plague-ridden like Americans - will be free.
Pretty much everyone seem to take borders as part of the natural order. Borders just make humanity poor, but we'd rather be racists than rich.
posted by zeikka at 4:20 AM on July 17, 2020 [4 favorites]
Pretty much everyone seem to take borders as part of the natural order. Borders just make humanity poor, but we'd rather be racists than rich.
posted by zeikka at 4:20 AM on July 17, 2020 [4 favorites]
I noticed that a lot of you are talking about how this affects you and your freedoms. Your personal privileges. You're missing the point. In the Global South, our passports are shitty all the time. noticed that a lot of you are talking about how this affects you and your freedoms. Your personal privileges. You're missing the point. In the Global South, our passports are shitty all the time.
You should have a word with your editor as there is a single small paragraph midway through that lightly touches this point ("Welcome to the club!") but otherwise all the piece talks about is travel restrictions on Americans and why they should and do exist.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:15 AM on July 17, 2020 [5 favorites]
You should have a word with your editor as there is a single small paragraph midway through that lightly touches this point ("Welcome to the club!") but otherwise all the piece talks about is travel restrictions on Americans and why they should and do exist.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:15 AM on July 17, 2020 [5 favorites]
The problem is some determined dipshit would go out, get COVID-19, then travel to "secured" green zones on the back roads just as a middle finger to liberals and to prove they can do it.
You know I kinda enjoyed this comment as it demonstrated that there are some things even I’ll reject as being too cynical. Then I woke up to this.
ANTI-MASK PROTESTERS' NEW WEAPON: WEARING MASKS THAT OFFER NO COVID-19 PROTECTION
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:26 AM on July 17, 2020 [1 favorite]
You know I kinda enjoyed this comment as it demonstrated that there are some things even I’ll reject as being too cynical. Then I woke up to this.
ANTI-MASK PROTESTERS' NEW WEAPON: WEARING MASKS THAT OFFER NO COVID-19 PROTECTION
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:26 AM on July 17, 2020 [1 favorite]
Oppression Olympics is dumb and it's even worse when you think all Americans are white.
Your comment is pretty tactless, and seems to miss the point of the White Refugees essay. You may want to read the piece again and reconsider your response. I offer this suggestion as a non-white American.
posted by cdefgfeadgagfe at 5:46 AM on July 17, 2020
Your comment is pretty tactless, and seems to miss the point of the White Refugees essay. You may want to read the piece again and reconsider your response. I offer this suggestion as a non-white American.
posted by cdefgfeadgagfe at 5:46 AM on July 17, 2020
Post-colonial border regimes are a moral abomination as much as feudalism and you need to deeply consider what side of history you want to be on. Freedom to move is a human right, something you feel keenly now that it's taken away, for legitimate quarantine reasons. Well I'm telling you, we're human down here and you're no better than me. Our rights are taken away for no reason besides racism and colonialism and discrimination against the poor.
To be honest, I could give a fuck about your travel plans. The real question is when dark, colonized and poor people - who are not idiotic and plague-ridden like Americans - will be free.
Holy strawman argument, Batman! Thanks for putting words into our mouths that none of us said... I don't see where anybody here in this thread was arguing that people outside of the United States, Canada or Europe aren't human or deserving of freedom of movement or celebrating colonialism. I'm also glad to know that all Americans are idiotic and plague-ridden, that's really a healthy way to enable a constructive discussion.
That being said, what do you suggest? You specifically point out the Democratic Republic of Congo, whose citizens are really treated horribly on the visa front, but it appears that currently only four neighboring countries are allowed in by their government. Should they open their borders to all? Would a visa free travel zone across Africa work, similar to the Schengen Area?
I could be wrong, but I don't think Sri Lanka's or Congo's governments are being forced to close their borders to other non-rich countries by the U.S. or Europe. Wouldn't it be an economic opportunity for the rest of the world to open their borders to other discriminated against countries to empower their collective economies against the global elites?
posted by rambling wanderlust at 7:02 AM on July 17, 2020
To be honest, I could give a fuck about your travel plans. The real question is when dark, colonized and poor people - who are not idiotic and plague-ridden like Americans - will be free.
Holy strawman argument, Batman! Thanks for putting words into our mouths that none of us said... I don't see where anybody here in this thread was arguing that people outside of the United States, Canada or Europe aren't human or deserving of freedom of movement or celebrating colonialism. I'm also glad to know that all Americans are idiotic and plague-ridden, that's really a healthy way to enable a constructive discussion.
That being said, what do you suggest? You specifically point out the Democratic Republic of Congo, whose citizens are really treated horribly on the visa front, but it appears that currently only four neighboring countries are allowed in by their government. Should they open their borders to all? Would a visa free travel zone across Africa work, similar to the Schengen Area?
I could be wrong, but I don't think Sri Lanka's or Congo's governments are being forced to close their borders to other non-rich countries by the U.S. or Europe. Wouldn't it be an economic opportunity for the rest of the world to open their borders to other discriminated against countries to empower their collective economies against the global elites?
posted by rambling wanderlust at 7:02 AM on July 17, 2020
I think that people who are offended by indica's tone should keep in mind that Metafilter aspires to be an open, welcoming community, which means that no conversation exists in a vacuum. If certain voices within the community express their distress at losing the right to travel (which is totally legitimate), others voices may arrive and point out that many people never had this right (which is also legitimate).
Another aspect to this though is that those who could already travel have power that those who cannot never had. And so if those without power express anger towards those who do, that is also quite understandable (especially given the actual historical context). In order for Metafilter to be an enlightened community, we obviously must not react to this anger defensively, but we also have to not delegitimate this anger. We have to say, your anger is welcome, and we share it, because the injustice is real. That's my two cents anyway.
posted by Alex404 at 7:20 AM on July 17, 2020 [25 favorites]
Another aspect to this though is that those who could already travel have power that those who cannot never had. And so if those without power express anger towards those who do, that is also quite understandable (especially given the actual historical context). In order for Metafilter to be an enlightened community, we obviously must not react to this anger defensively, but we also have to not delegitimate this anger. We have to say, your anger is welcome, and we share it, because the injustice is real. That's my two cents anyway.
posted by Alex404 at 7:20 AM on July 17, 2020 [25 favorites]
rambling wanderlust, I don't think that was the point that we were meant to take away from that post - more just that, well, as Americans experience (for, in many cases, the first time) the feeling of restricted ability to travel, we would do well to empathize with those who experience similar restrictions all the time for no reason other than the birth lottery.
Your comparison with DRC or Sri Lanka is weak. As an American, I've applied for both work and tourist visas to several countries in South Asia, the Middle East, and Africa. It's generally pretty easy. Usually it's either a web form for an e-visa or, at most, you need to send your passport to the embassy for a week or two. Fees are typically somewhere between $20-150. I've never once been rejected and I don't think I know any US passport holders that have. Meanwhile, for people who live in those places, getting a US tourist visa or Schengen visa can take months and people are regularly rejected based on overstay risk factors like their age or their family ties. So if you're a Congolese college student, and you want to see the world by visiting your Uncle in New York over your school break? Or you're Sri Lankan, you accidentally conceive a baby with a visiting tourist, and by the time you find out they're pregnant, you have six months to try to get a visa to be there for the birth of your child? Yeah, good luck with that. We typically don't face barriers like that, or at least, we haven't before now.
posted by mosst at 7:36 AM on July 17, 2020 [8 favorites]
Your comparison with DRC or Sri Lanka is weak. As an American, I've applied for both work and tourist visas to several countries in South Asia, the Middle East, and Africa. It's generally pretty easy. Usually it's either a web form for an e-visa or, at most, you need to send your passport to the embassy for a week or two. Fees are typically somewhere between $20-150. I've never once been rejected and I don't think I know any US passport holders that have. Meanwhile, for people who live in those places, getting a US tourist visa or Schengen visa can take months and people are regularly rejected based on overstay risk factors like their age or their family ties. So if you're a Congolese college student, and you want to see the world by visiting your Uncle in New York over your school break? Or you're Sri Lankan, you accidentally conceive a baby with a visiting tourist, and by the time you find out they're pregnant, you have six months to try to get a visa to be there for the birth of your child? Yeah, good luck with that. We typically don't face barriers like that, or at least, we haven't before now.
posted by mosst at 7:36 AM on July 17, 2020 [8 favorites]
I should also amend my comment and point out that indica's voice has been in this thread since the beginning (as they point out), and we however chose to listen to only part of the message. For whatever reason.
posted by Alex404 at 8:04 AM on July 17, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by Alex404 at 8:04 AM on July 17, 2020 [4 favorites]
we however chose to listen to only part of the message. For whatever reason.
I'm guessing it's because the only mention of it is a single small paragraph midway through that lightly touches this point ("Welcome to the club!") but otherwise all the piece talks about is travel restrictions on Americans and why they should and do exist.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:26 AM on July 17, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'm guessing it's because the only mention of it is a single small paragraph midway through that lightly touches this point ("Welcome to the club!") but otherwise all the piece talks about is travel restrictions on Americans and why they should and do exist.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:26 AM on July 17, 2020 [1 favorite]
> And yet culturally it is much the same. You only really start to notice the depth of the brainwashing/assumed-default worldview once you've lived outside America for a decade or so.
I lived outside America for a decade or so and I disagree.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:29 AM on July 17, 2020
I lived outside America for a decade or so and I disagree.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:29 AM on July 17, 2020
One of the true pleasures of arriving in the Santiago, Chile airport has always been the befuddled look on US-passport holders as they're shuffled into the special US-only line where they have to wait an extra half hour or so for the privilege of paying the reciprocity fee that Chile charges them to balance the cost of acquiring a US visa for Chilean nationals.
posted by signal at 8:59 AM on July 17, 2020 [11 favorites]
posted by signal at 8:59 AM on July 17, 2020 [11 favorites]
Generalized reciprocity would be such a nice thing.
It'd probably end up requiring some sort of treaty body with authority to set fees and requirements among participant nations (to be fair, $100 fee is different for a Canadian than for a Rwandan), and I have no idea how that would work legally but it'd still be pretty nifty. There would be quite a lot of complexity around some of the requirements imposed by various nations (medical insurance, the need to report your location to the cops every single day, and so on) but it'd be a nice development all the same, and over time you could start to take certain responsibilities off individual visitors and on to nation-states (repatriation insurance, for example, could probably be socialized via this mechanism at some point).
... huh. I actually think this treaty thing should exist as a thing unto itself. Some of this obviously exists in various existing economic treaties between participants, but it would I think be nice if it existed as a separate organization by itself that nations could sign up for independent of economics, military alignment, or whatever else it normally gets piggybacked on to.
posted by aramaic at 9:36 AM on July 17, 2020 [1 favorite]
It'd probably end up requiring some sort of treaty body with authority to set fees and requirements among participant nations (to be fair, $100 fee is different for a Canadian than for a Rwandan), and I have no idea how that would work legally but it'd still be pretty nifty. There would be quite a lot of complexity around some of the requirements imposed by various nations (medical insurance, the need to report your location to the cops every single day, and so on) but it'd be a nice development all the same, and over time you could start to take certain responsibilities off individual visitors and on to nation-states (repatriation insurance, for example, could probably be socialized via this mechanism at some point).
... huh. I actually think this treaty thing should exist as a thing unto itself. Some of this obviously exists in various existing economic treaties between participants, but it would I think be nice if it existed as a separate organization by itself that nations could sign up for independent of economics, military alignment, or whatever else it normally gets piggybacked on to.
posted by aramaic at 9:36 AM on July 17, 2020 [1 favorite]
Freedom to move is a human right, something you feel keenly now that it's taken away, for legitimate quarantine reasons. Well I'm telling you, we're human down here and you're no better than me. Our rights are taken away for no reason besides racism and colonialism and discrimination against the poor.
We - aka those of us with powerful passports from colonialist countries (PPfCC for short) - need to remember this. I follow a very successful and well-known science artist online; I see his work on the cover of Scientific American or on PBS programs. But he can't even attend a conference in the United States because he is Indonesian and self-employed. It's completely discriminatory and shouldn't be allowed.
It'd probably end up requiring some sort of treaty body with authority to set fees and requirements among participant nations (to be fair, $100 fee is different for a Canadian than for a Rwandan).
The irony is that these fees are often anti-progressive. As a Canadian, when I needed a student visa to enter the US, I paid $6 USD in cash at the border. My British friend paid about $90 USD and had to take some paper work to an office. My Indian friend had to pay over $200 USD and have an interview. The passport-privilege of majority white nations is palpable.
Of course, as with all things, privilege is complicated. The same friend was once very dismissive of another American student who had never left the US - until I reminded her that her parents worked in the diplomatic service and had taken her to many different countries before she was 12, while the American was lower-middle class and only had the change to leave her state when she went to college. While complaints about being unable to travel internationally are completely valid, sympathy will be less from many people who have great passports but who still never have had that opportunity either (and likely never will).
posted by jb at 11:43 AM on July 17, 2020 [8 favorites]
We - aka those of us with powerful passports from colonialist countries (PPfCC for short) - need to remember this. I follow a very successful and well-known science artist online; I see his work on the cover of Scientific American or on PBS programs. But he can't even attend a conference in the United States because he is Indonesian and self-employed. It's completely discriminatory and shouldn't be allowed.
It'd probably end up requiring some sort of treaty body with authority to set fees and requirements among participant nations (to be fair, $100 fee is different for a Canadian than for a Rwandan).
The irony is that these fees are often anti-progressive. As a Canadian, when I needed a student visa to enter the US, I paid $6 USD in cash at the border. My British friend paid about $90 USD and had to take some paper work to an office. My Indian friend had to pay over $200 USD and have an interview. The passport-privilege of majority white nations is palpable.
Of course, as with all things, privilege is complicated. The same friend was once very dismissive of another American student who had never left the US - until I reminded her that her parents worked in the diplomatic service and had taken her to many different countries before she was 12, while the American was lower-middle class and only had the change to leave her state when she went to college. While complaints about being unable to travel internationally are completely valid, sympathy will be less from many people who have great passports but who still never have had that opportunity either (and likely never will).
posted by jb at 11:43 AM on July 17, 2020 [8 favorites]
the special US-only line
If you fly out of Frankfurt Germany to the USA you get the privilege of having your own concourse (marked "Z") for your departing flight. Post-9/11 the security requirements got so out of hand and the Germans got so fed up with doing it to everyone that they finally said "fuck it" and put those flights in a different area.
Technically, FRA/Z is for anything leaving the Schengen zone so it looks like the Brits will start to enjoy this magical place as well.
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:38 PM on July 17, 2020 [7 favorites]
If you fly out of Frankfurt Germany to the USA you get the privilege of having your own concourse (marked "Z") for your departing flight. Post-9/11 the security requirements got so out of hand and the Germans got so fed up with doing it to everyone that they finally said "fuck it" and put those flights in a different area.
Technically, FRA/Z is for anything leaving the Schengen zone so it looks like the Brits will start to enjoy this magical place as well.
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:38 PM on July 17, 2020 [7 favorites]
We're not in Schengen anyway, so. I've never noticed anything especially abject about German airports apart from the security officials, who seem to be chosen for their ability to embody the worst German stereotypes.
posted by Grangousier at 1:11 PM on July 17, 2020
posted by Grangousier at 1:11 PM on July 17, 2020
But he can't even attend a conference in the United States because he is Indonesian and self-employed. It's completely discriminatory and shouldn't be allowed.
It doesn't even have to be this extreme, even just the extra time, money and documentation that some people need to get a visa can mean that they lose opportunities. For example, I work for a multinational company in Frankfurt, and it wasn't unusual for clients to request us for face-to-face meetings at their offices at fairly short notice. As a person with a Powerful Passport from a (semi-) Colonialist Country (Ireland) I can do that, a number of my colleagues can't, despite having the company behind them, and having Schengen residence permits.
FRA/Z is for anything leaving the Schengen zone so it looks like the Brits will start to enjoy
The UK (and Ireland) are already non-Schengen, and the Star Alliance flights to both of them normally go from B (after passport control) and Non-Star Alliance flights from Terminal 2. Z's more for longhaul flights, in particular US flights thanks to the dedicated security area, but also China, at least.
posted by scorbet at 1:21 PM on July 17, 2020 [1 favorite]
It doesn't even have to be this extreme, even just the extra time, money and documentation that some people need to get a visa can mean that they lose opportunities. For example, I work for a multinational company in Frankfurt, and it wasn't unusual for clients to request us for face-to-face meetings at their offices at fairly short notice. As a person with a Powerful Passport from a (semi-) Colonialist Country (Ireland) I can do that, a number of my colleagues can't, despite having the company behind them, and having Schengen residence permits.
FRA/Z is for anything leaving the Schengen zone so it looks like the Brits will start to enjoy
The UK (and Ireland) are already non-Schengen, and the Star Alliance flights to both of them normally go from B (after passport control) and Non-Star Alliance flights from Terminal 2. Z's more for longhaul flights, in particular US flights thanks to the dedicated security area, but also China, at least.
posted by scorbet at 1:21 PM on July 17, 2020 [1 favorite]
I follow indica on twitter. Their tone is not even particularly angry or rude, its reflective of the frustration much of the world's internetizens (the majority of whom are labeled PoC by the US) feel these days inundated with the non stop flow of toxic sludge out of your country, particularly the leadership since that's what swamps our internet experience if we're dependent on English, like all former colonies.
Just a thought as y'all step outside your regular online haunts ...
posted by infini at 1:21 PM on July 17, 2020 [13 favorites]
Just a thought as y'all step outside your regular online haunts ...
posted by infini at 1:21 PM on July 17, 2020 [13 favorites]
illegal aliens
illegal migrants
This is dehumanizing rhetoric that many consider a slur. No human being is illegal.
posted by soy bean at 7:26 PM on July 17, 2020 [3 favorites]
illegal migrants
This is dehumanizing rhetoric that many consider a slur. No human being is illegal.
posted by soy bean at 7:26 PM on July 17, 2020 [3 favorites]
At the risk of stating the obvious, the present flight restrictions exist to try and limit the spread of disease. These restrictions will be relaxed when countries begin to trust each other (and yes, there will be reciprocity to some extent). Restrictions on people leaving from the US will continue so long as it is believed your citizens pose a health risk to the rest of us. I can't see how these restrictions would be lifted any time soon. Annoyingly the UK will allow entry from the US if travellers self-quarantine for 14 days even though travellers from the UK are banned outright by the US; except for neo-fascist sycophant chums of your President.
The longer term problem for the US is that Europeans mostly believe that the US is "no longer necessarily their friend in times of need". And it is not just Europe; the world order is changing and it is unlikely to be to the advantage of the UK and US.
posted by epo at 4:57 AM on July 18, 2020 [7 favorites]
The longer term problem for the US is that Europeans mostly believe that the US is "no longer necessarily their friend in times of need". And it is not just Europe; the world order is changing and it is unlikely to be to the advantage of the UK and US.
posted by epo at 4:57 AM on July 18, 2020 [7 favorites]
I remember someone in the endless POTUS threads saying that we should write down our current beliefs immediately after the election, so we could look back later to see how far we have changed. I'd love to know how much our own Overton window has drifted in the past several years of hell...
If you want to be reminded about how it felt then and get some of that shock and disgust back again, you can read Masha Gessen's "Surviving Autocracy" which goes up to covid (but not the BLM protestors) for a refresher.
posted by subdee at 9:18 PM on July 18, 2020 [2 favorites]
If you want to be reminded about how it felt then and get some of that shock and disgust back again, you can read Masha Gessen's "Surviving Autocracy" which goes up to covid (but not the BLM protestors) for a refresher.
posted by subdee at 9:18 PM on July 18, 2020 [2 favorites]
I love it when talk to turns to travel and the mind-broadened among us parade their ignorance with incredulity at how people can live without long distance air travel.
It's adorable! Like a teenager pretending to be high off oregano.
As for my own tale of woe.
I do not recommend falling in love with your transatlantic friend of 20 years during a pandemic.
Well, actually I do it's fucking amazing.
But oh god we just want to hold each other.
posted by fullerine at 9:48 AM on July 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
It's adorable! Like a teenager pretending to be high off oregano.
As for my own tale of woe.
I do not recommend falling in love with your transatlantic friend of 20 years during a pandemic.
Well, actually I do it's fucking amazing.
But oh god we just want to hold each other.
posted by fullerine at 9:48 AM on July 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
As a Canadian expat living in the United States I have to say....I have some regrets mixed with some homesickness and topped with covid gravy. A pandemic poutine of regret one could say.
posted by srboisvert at 3:47 PM on July 19, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 3:47 PM on July 19, 2020 [7 favorites]
Bahamas closes borders to U.S. tourists after coronavirus cases spike; others welcome
posted by cendawanita at 10:11 AM on July 20, 2020
posted by cendawanita at 10:11 AM on July 20, 2020
This is dehumanizing rhetoric that many consider a slur. No human being is illegal.
Even the immigrants who are considered legal are dehumanized in U.S. I'm an alien! Nano Nano.
posted by srboisvert at 12:11 PM on July 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
Even the immigrants who are considered legal are dehumanized in U.S. I'm an alien! Nano Nano.
posted by srboisvert at 12:11 PM on July 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
God, I hated the whole resident alien bit.
posted by infini at 1:02 PM on July 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by infini at 1:02 PM on July 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
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I mean, I chose to live here, but up until a couple months ago, it always still felt like a choice. I’m honestly trying to do my best not to think about it, because I feel very much trapped, even though I fully intend to spend the rest of my life here, because thinking about it starts to weigh very, very heavily on me. If, for any reason I had to leave, there’s a very real chance that the life I’ve built here would be closed to me, meaning that functionally, I can’t leave.
Seeing this, that essentially the world is closed to me, is downright terrifying, though honestly understandable. I can’t imagine this will change anytime soon, and I’m pretty much resigned to a trip home last summer to be the last time out of Japan for at least the next year, if not longer.
posted by Ghidorah at 2:27 AM on July 16, 2020 [58 favorites]